Basically, yes, what Sovrath said. You cannot give personalized stories without instancing the entire game. And, yes, at that point a lot of people will say your game is no longer an MMOG. That is why I'm doubtful. I think there are a lot of good ideas in Citadel of Sorcery. I also think that most people dislike such heavy instancing -- the reasons for the hate are irrelevant. But this is why I believe that Citadel, as currently designed, has a BIG uphill climb ahead of it. Maybe they shouldn't market it as an MMOG. How about "Personalized Multiplayer Online Fantasy Adventure"? I think people would buy that, and it avoids the marginally dishonest "Massively" qualifier.
Well you would also have to market other games with instancing like that too. Instancing is for questions & guild halls only. Everything else in the game is part of the "massively" in MMORPG.
Also instancing is a small price to pay when you lead your own personal story. Taking away grinding is a huge positive, and many people have been complaining about too much grinding recently.
I, personally, have never quested in a larger group than 8 people; but that is just me.
__________________________________________________ In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
1. They discourage players from adventuring (finding new places)
2. They discourage social play, because everyone is so hell bent on quests,they join you only if you're on the same quest...and leave the group as soon as they have what they need.
I'll explain #1 a bit more. The linear quests I've dealt with (in Vanguard and PoBS) led me around to various places; but I wouldn't call that exploring. They say "go talk to Joe at "some place" that I've marked on your map. So you travel, spending most of the time looking at the map instead of the world in front of you. Low and behold, you arrive at a new city. Yipee. But, did you really explore and discover? No, you were merely led around on a leash.
When players spend the bulk of their time staring at their map or quest-journal, they are depriving themselves of a lot of enjoyment. And this explains, probably, why people bored so rapidly of newly released MMOs like PoBS and Vanguard...the adventure simply wasn't there.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
A HYBRID is what is needed. A huge open 'sandbox' style world that has PLENTY of random quests, all of which have a REAL story behind them and make actual realistic sense. Also, many exploration/stumble upon quests. BUT they should not be forced upon the player, so a player could just play in the world as they wish. Personally, I would do away completely with 'EXPERIENCE' and instead have a different kind of progression system which rewards players for things they do, rather than grinding kind of stuff. Overall a more 'realistic' world.
This is what games like EQ and DAoC have. I don't know what made developers run away from that formula. You had the sandbox grind feeling, but in depth quests that you could take and actually feel like you accomplished something and it took time and effort to do.
I've yet to play a "quest system" where you couldn't still go out and grind mobs if/when you wanted to, so I fail to see how quests in any way, shape or form detract from "freedom".
Sorry, I'm not getting the whole "linear" argument here. I think you're confusing quests with classes or something. Oh and btw, I don't know about Asheron's Call, but both EVE and SWG (pre-CU SWG even) have/had "quests" (they just called them "missions").
You don't get it because you're failing to see the point of those quests that are thrust upon you.
In games like WoW questing is the fastest way to level. It is a means to an end. To excel in the game you must do the quests. If you try to purely grind on the mobs it will take you much longer and you will not gain any sort of advantage from it.
No matter how much some people SAY (or even BELIEVE) they want games to be open-ended, games without quests cannot hold the attention of the average gamer. Games without quests do not have to be linear. In WoW, EQ2, CoH, etc., at any given level, you have dozens and dozens of quests and story arcs to choose from. You are never forced down any particular path, and you are never really forced to quest at all. LoTRO does seem a little more linear to me, but you still have the option of ignoring the quests altogether. You can advance your character through Deeds, for example.
Are you stupid? EQ, UO, SWG and DAoC are not quest driven, were sandbox MMOs and held the attention of gamers.
It seems that as the internet got bigger, and more people had access to it and PC gaming became more popular it just got filled with a bunch of lazy tards who can't figure things out for themselves and need to be pointed in a direction.
I hate linear progression, and an "end game" all together. Yes you can max your stats, but as long as there are still fun things for you to do in the game of your choosing the game does not have to be "over" . I like games where you can choose what you want to do and when you want to do it .. and are not forced to do anything to get ahead. Where you actually have a choice as to how you want to play rather than be led around by npcs being told what to do. I like to be able to decide how and what I do in the game and be able to skip quests if I want as well. Freedom is very important in mmos.
I felt just as immersed in WOW and everything seemed just as much an adventure compared to UO & EQ. The big difference was that WOW wasn't frustrating and I didn't curse the screen when I died. I also felt like I was actually doing something besides leveling up a character. Quests actually give you game time purpose. In EQ it was, "so which spawn camp will I level up at for the next 4+ hours?" In UO it was, "which skill will I train by mindlessly repeating the same exact thing over and over again." Of course at the time, it felt cool because what alernative did I have? There was no such thing as questing. All you could do was grind and spawn camp. So now that I have a choice of questing, spawn camping and grinding all in 1 game, lets just say I'll ALWAYS take the game with the most options. UO, EQ and most MMOs before WOW had only 1 option to level up and that was mindlessly grind for hours on end, watching a bar slowly trickle upwards. BOOOOOOOOOORing by todays standards. So for me, WOW was more fun and more enjoyable because I spent more time fighting monsters and adventuring than fighting with lousy control, bugs, crashes and punishing gameplay mechanics ONLY designed to slow your progress down.
LAUGH OUT FUCKING LOUD!!
What do you think you're doing in WoW? You're killing X Mob for X amount of time. The only difference is you have a piece of paper that told you to go do that and will give you some extra XP for doing it.
But it's only a SMALL portion of you RPGers who want that type of play. WoW is obviously the largest MMO, and it's again obvious people are content on the system WoW has. People don't want an open ended game. People are totally satisfied on following the "yellow brick road" as you haters put it. Again, I'd rather do that than walk around for hours attempting to find one quest NPC. There's no direction, there's no help, and progression. It's a system that works. And WoW is NOT the only one that uses it, and for some reason, the game takes the brunt of abuse. Imagine being a new player to WoW. You're thrown into Elwynn Forest. What now? If there's no Quest Give you're supposed to talk to. WTF do you do? Walk around the 100 NPCs in Elywnn Forest until you find the quest giver? Gimmie a break. That's a very unrealistic gameplay, that isn't suited to the masses. You will never find a game with the popularity of WoW, and the system of this deadend no help, "open-ended" world.
Imagine, in Everquest, being a new player back in the day and being thrown into the town of Halas. First, the entire ice village felt like it had many hidden mysteries, from the cellar with the intimidating shamans to the arena and its ominous music of bygone glory. Then imagine risking the nerve to cross the ice pond to the cavern, not knowing if you were to be attacked upon reaching the other side. Then zoning to Everfrost itself and seeing the foreboding ramp down and the fighting going on below, not knowing just how risky it was to venture down there.
That's adventure. It worked. Being new, not knowing where to go or what was around the corner created fascination. The sting of dying (i.e., experience loss) created fear and excitement. Making the run from Halas through Blackburrow and beyond was scary and exciting. In contrast, trekking across Netherstorm in WOW is "yawn" boring. Anything in WOW is "yawn" boring.
Why? No surprises, no penalty for dying (no significant penalty, anyway), no fear.
WOW-kiddie questland is NOT adventure, except for those who have never seen a real MMORPG. WOW is McDonalds. The great MMORPG's of yesteryear are legendary steakhouses that are no longer in business.
No, that's NOT fun at all. I don't want to lose experience because I'm killed. I rightfully earned that experience. I spent my time on that experience. I don't want to lose experience because I'm killed. 0.o There's no fun in that at all.
What you discribed is some dumb MUD 50 years old. That's no fun. MOVE LEFT IF YOU WANT TO VENTURE INTO THE FOREST OF MAGICAL MYSTERY. Gimmie a break already. It's a unending arguement that you all will always lose as long as WoW has 10 million subscribers, owns 65% of of the MMO market, and hyped up games like AoC are still released. You people remind me of those gothic kiddies that sit in the back of the classroom, hating everyone, with trench coats, black lipstick and 20 piercings in your nose. Just hating something only because everyone else loves it. You give no valid reason as to why you hate something. WoW has kiddies? WHO DOESN'T? Every game I've played I've met kiddies, no more in WoW than in GuildWars, or AO, etc. Nice try though
You're obviously 15, never played any of the old school MMOs and think that a large subscriber base = great game.
You remind me of the dumb ass in the corner who whenever the teacher called upon never had an answer to give and looked like a total ass.
WoW is easy, boring, and has no sense of achievement. Everyone in the end achieves the same damn thing. In old MMOs not everyone was the best.
But now WoW has made even the most unskilled player the best in the game.
Give me constant NPC-driven events. That camp of bandits in zone #2? Why not let them actually attack a minor town every once in a while, instead of being purely quest fodder.
Give me mobs that are NOT part of some quest to obtain their livers. I want to be wandering through a dense jungle and be attacked by something that I don't have to kill 20 of.
DESTROY every single 'escort' quest. Or at least make the NPC you are escorting NOT aggro every mob in sight.
Give me a viable means of leveling up other than questing. I KNOW you can choose to go grind mobs instead of quest, but that's sort of like derailing your gaming cart from the roller coaster. The friggin cart you were riding was MEANT to ride the roller coaster. If you derail it, it's no fun just sitting in a cart in the middle of a field.
Their were a lot of posts so I haven't read all of them.
Well I also would like to see a game thats a little of both, a sandbox and has some quests. Just killing things for no reason gets dull. I also hate the quests where you're asked to get 25 tiger wiskers and you have to kill 100 to do that. A game called Rohan that just came out in beta so far has you kill 25 mobs to get 25 items which is nice. I also think that quests can be more versitile like in single player games. I'd like to see some sneaking missions to kill 1 person or sneak around a castle to steal treasure. You have thiefs and assassins in MMO's but they don't do any thiefery or assassinations. I'd also like if you go into an area it may be a warzone and you may have to fight you way to the other end where you have to be or try and find a safe way around it. It would also be nice if you're around someone and you ask for help and if someone does help you they get equel XP and treasure instead of having to group with people (but only if you ask for help or your health is down a certain percentage and they help you). Their are tons of ways MMO's can go and I thin in time they will but it takes time. Look at FPS' they started out with games like Doom where you just shoot and kill and thats it, then they went to simple missions and run and kill, now they're getting more complex and you can sneak and hide and find cover. Games just take time to progress, but in a few more years you'll see MMO's will be much different than they are today.
For the quests where you have your own personal story, where you lead your own path, where you have NPCs actually do something during a quest (enemy/allies), where you actually make an impact on the world, YOU NEED AN INSTANCE. When you lead your own personal story and do quests that actually matter, an instance is needed. For me, it is entirely worth it,which is why Citadel of Sorcery interests me so much.
__________________________________________________ In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
You're obviously 15, never played any of the old school MMOs and think that a large subscriber base = great game. You remind me of the dumb ass in the corner who whenever the teacher called upon never had an answer to give and looked like a total ass. WoW is easy, boring, and has no sense of achievement. Everyone in the end achieves the same damn thing. In old MMOs not everyone was the best. But now WoW has made even the most unskilled player the best in the game.
Yeah, because people play games so they can feel like peons!
If I remember correctly, it has been awhile ago but the first level 50th players in EQ had many hours played time. (I imagine it was well over 40+ hrs a week) So were they 'skilled' or was EQ their life at the time? Old EQ rewarded time played (esp. grinding safe mobs) and risk adversion (don't die).
Boy that sounds like a blast no wonder its successor (EQII) got creemed.
Quests are ok, but there is something to be said about grinding mobs. It gets annoying when you see some guy out there killing some bandits and you decide...hey this may make things more interesting, what if we team up and kill them together. But when you get there and the person is 8 steps ahead of you on the quest chain, I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to waste an hour backtracking so were on the same step.
Most of the people I play these games with work 8+ hours a day, and I'm a slacker so I usually have more time to play, in a game like DaoC we could team up to level even if i was a few levels higher and not have to work backwards to get to the same point.
You're obviously 15, never played any of the old school MMOs and think that a large subscriber base = great game. You remind me of the dumb ass in the corner who whenever the teacher called upon never had an answer to give and looked like a total ass. WoW is easy, boring, and has no sense of achievement. Everyone in the end achieves the same damn thing. In old MMOs not everyone was the best. But now WoW has made even the most unskilled player the best in the game.
Yeah, because people play games so they can feel like peons!
If I remember correctly, it has been awhile ago but the first level 50th players in EQ had many hours played time. (I imagine it was well over 40+ hrs a week) So were they 'skilled' or was EQ their life at the time? Old EQ rewarded time played (esp. grinding safe mobs) and risk adversion (don't die).
Boy that sounds like a blast no wonder its successor (EQII) got creemed.
First off not everyone is a peon. Secondly, I'm sorry...but not everyone can be the best. It doesn't work that way in life, sports, or video games of any kind.
In EQ not everyone was the best, however, you were sure to be better than someone else depending on level and gear. Also, there was this thing called a "sense of achievement" in the game. When you leveled it was a milestone, when you got some new gear it was a milestone, when you finally got to a new zone to group with other players...MILESTONE. Quests weren't the norm and those who dared to do them felt, again, a sense of achievement because they took more than clicking an "accept" button and killing 5 Boars.
OH NOES IT TOOK LONG TIMES TO LEVEL IN DAH GAMEZ!!
What are you in such a rush to get to the end game content anyways? In EQ and other older MMOs, the adventure and experience was in the progression. When you got to the end, finally, sure...there was more to do, but the journey to the end was best.
In WoW....the journey to 70 is dull...nothing very exciting. What's at the end of WoW? MORE GRINDING!!
CONGRATULATIONS YOU GOT TO 70 LIKE THE REST OF OUR 10 MILLION SUBSCRIBER BASE!! NOW DO SOME MORE GRINDING NOOB!
EQ2 did horrible because SOE strayed away from the formula that made EQ such a good game. Most of the EQ player base either stayed in EQ or played WoW till they got bored of it and went back to EQ. EQ2 was a failure and I'd like to punch the development team for turning such a successful IP into shit.
Also, EQ2 was plagued by the same thing that plagues AoC...the requirements to play the game were incredibly too high at that time for most gamers to run and why drop 1k on a new rig when you can just play WoW and be the best alongside every other scrub player wearing purps?
Hell I'm 22 and you're in your 40s. Was your first MMO WoW? If so, that's probably why you don't understand what me and the other are pissed off about. It's also probably why you like WoW. Because you're a casual gamer and you're also new to MMOs in the first place.
WoW is like Pre-school when it comes to MMOs. Takes no effort at all and you can breeze through it while you take a nap and takes about as much skill as reciting your ABCs.
The old school MMOs...sort of like the glory days of baseball...before Blizzard came in and ruined the whole game.
I agree with many of the other posters here that a hybrid system that presents quests, but doesn't force you to do them to level, would be the best model.
Quest: A search or pursuit made in order to find or obtain something
Let's consider this philosophy. What if quests weren't just an alternative to leveling, but something different entirely? What if you did a quest not to get experience points, but to see something you couldn't see anywhere else in a MMO?
Take this for example:
John Doe is walking through a town when he notices a shopkeeper nervously pacing back and forth outside the entrance to his store. John talks to said shopkeeper to learn that the deliveryman for a very important package has not arrived this morning and he fears that his buyer will not tolerate a late shipment. Said shopkeeper asks John if he is willing to take a temporary job of delivering this package in the lazy deliveryman's place. Begin Quest
John agrees and is given a small map with the delivery site location, Area B. The delivery site can only be accessed by traveling through area A in order to reach area B. John starts his journey and within a short while arrives in Area A.
While walking through area A, a cinematic event occurs (Instance). A band of mercenaries rides up on horseback, surrounds John, and draws their swords. The lead vagabond's eyes stare intently at the package... John quickly determines that they're after the package.
Player is now thrown into a combat scenario against these mercenaries.
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Let's say John loses - The mercenaries make off with the package, but one drops an item that provides a clue to their hideout. John respawns at X place -> Next step in quest is to find their hideout and get the package back.
If John wins (or when he gets the package back) - He has a multitude of choices.
First, should I open the box to see what they're after, or should I just continue and deliver the package? Quest End 1
Let's say John opens the package and discovers it's a magic relic that allows him to use a spell unattainable anywhere else. John recognizes the relic as an artifact treasured by a prominent kingdom.
John has a few choices... Should he just keep the relic? Quest End 2
Should he continue onward to his destination, knowing that there may be danger ahead... and perhaps other treasures? (Some other sort of fight here when he reaches the destination) Quest End 3
Perhaps he should return the artifact to the kingdom and explain what has happened... It is obvious there are some shady dealings afoot and he wishes to learn more about the shopkeeper. Quest End 4
No matter which choice he picks, John realizes at the end of the quest... I wonder what happened to the deliveryman? Could the mercenaries looking to steal the relic have killed him? New quest in chain
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Such a quest begins looking like a normal "Go from A to B" quest, but ends up being quite complicated. Each of these quest endings could reward the character in different ways. End 1 could lead to a chained quest which has him working in the black market of this trade involving the shopkeeper... 2 would give him access to the spell... 3 might have a heavy monetary award with it... and 4 might lead to a large quest chain to investigate the dealings of the shopkeeper, expose a thievery ring, and earn him a title of "Honorary Knight" or such that all players would be able to see.
Now, if there was a major MMO that did everything else right but did quests like this, who in the world would be playing games with such pathetic tasks as "Kill 20 boars and you get some shiny exp points!"? Not I, that's for sure. Games that have such quests (or even worse, have dozens of them) belong in the bargain bin in my book.
The point of all this isn't whether a sandbox MMO not driven by quests or a quest-based MMO would be a better design. It's that the best design would be that which quests are actually something different,new, and unique that you want to do and experience because you can't experience something like them anywhere else in the MMO.
But hey, if you want to stick to games that have kill quests and "We have a temporary opening at Fed-Ex!" quests as an alternative means to level... then by all means, go ahead. To me, it's no different than grinding mobs for hours on end; repetitive, boring actions that give me no incentive to feel immersed, role-play, or feel anything that vaguely resembles fun.
P.S. If anyone happens to know an upcoming MMO in which every quest is planned to be something unique like the example I listed, please do tell.
Originally posted by Desral But hey, if you want to stick to games that have kill quests and "We have a temporary opening at Fed-Ex!" quests as an alternative means to level... then by all means, go ahead. To me, it's no different than grinding mobs for hours on end; repetitive, boring actions that give me no incentive to feel immersed, role-play, or feel anything that vaguely resembles fun.
That's exactly it. People always attack the grind aspect of old-school mmos, but what do you think you're doing when you're grinding out 20 [insert mob here] for a 1/8 bar of experience? Or grinding out rep so you can get access to more quests and more loot? Its grinding with a different label.
The difference is - grinding in the old-school mmo's meant spending hours upon hours with certain people - developing friendships, guilds, etc. Grinding in WoW separates everyone as much as possible. Sure, you can group to get things done, but why do that? WoW is a MSORPG - a massively single-player online role-playing game. Try soloing your way to endgame in EQ, or DAoC. And just to make things clear, people aren't hanging on to those games or using them as examples because that's all they know - its because they were good games, a far cry better than the sh*t game developers are shovelling now.
Originally posted by Desral But hey, if you want to stick to games that have kill quests and "We have a temporary opening at Fed-Ex!" quests as an alternative means to level... then by all means, go ahead. To me, it's no different than grinding mobs for hours on end; repetitive, boring actions that give me no incentive to feel immersed, role-play, or feel anything that vaguely resembles fun.
That's exactly it. People always attack the grind aspect of old-school mmos, but what do you think you're doing when you're grinding out 20 [insert mob here] for a 1/8 bar of experience? Or grinding out rep so you can get access to more quests and more loot? Its grinding with a different label.
The difference is - grinding in the old-school mmo's meant spending hours upon hours with certain people - developing friendships, guilds, etc. Grinding in WoW separates everyone as much as possible. Sure, you can group to get things done, but why do that? WoW is a MSORPG - a massively single-player online role-playing game. Try soloing your way to endgame in EQ, or DAoC. And just to make things clear, people aren't hanging on to those games or using them as examples because that's all they know - its because they were good games, a far cry better than the sh*t game developers are shovelling now.
QFT. I doubt they will ever realize it or ever admit to it, however.
Originally posted by Desral But hey, if you want to stick to games that have kill quests and "We have a temporary opening at Fed-Ex!" quests as an alternative means to level... then by all means, go ahead. To me, it's no different than grinding mobs for hours on end; repetitive, boring actions that give me no incentive to feel immersed, role-play, or feel anything that vaguely resembles fun.
That's exactly it. People always attack the grind aspect of old-school mmos, but what do you think you're doing when you're grinding out 20 [insert mob here] for a 1/8 bar of experience? Or grinding out rep so you can get access to more quests and more loot? Its grinding with a different label.
The difference is - grinding in the old-school mmo's meant spending hours upon hours with certain people - developing friendships, guilds, etc. Grinding in WoW separates everyone as much as possible. Sure, you can group to get things done, but why do that? WoW is a MSORPG - a massively single-player online role-playing game. Try soloing your way to endgame in EQ, or DAoC. And just to make things clear, people aren't hanging on to those games or using them as examples because that's all they know - its because they were good games, a far cry better than the sh*t game developers are shovelling now.
QFT. I doubt they will ever realize it or ever admit to it, however.
I've played the old-school MMO's and grinded with friends and guilds and such and I still got bored. Games like EQ and WoW a like are plegued with the same thing and thats the fighting style in the game. No matter if a game is open ended or quest driven its going to be dull because of the plane old auto attack thats found in most MMO's now a days. AoC has changed this a bit, you have more control over your hits, when you run away you don't have someone chasing after you hitting you with his sword from 20 feet away, or have arrows following you like heat seeking missiles. I think once we get more games with better combat mechanics then the grind won't seem as bad.
What do we like about games like Oblivian and Bio Shock? I know I like the story line, the openness of the games, the fact that the NPC's talk to you instead of having to read everything, and their are other ways to do the quests. Then their are games like Thief and Hitman where you can sneak around and steal and sneak past people to kill one person. As single player games get better so will MMO's but it'll take longer for MMO's because of the multi-player aspects of the game and the hugeness of the worlds. Think of a game like GTA 4 but an MMO (sure I know APB and Crime Craft are coming out but I haven't seen them yet so I'm not sure how good they'll be) instead of a first person game with multi-player aspects in it? This is what I have to hope for in an MMO.
Ah yes but that interactive combat comes at a price; and that price is player interaction. IN Eq, yes there are a lot of buttons to mash; but you could always fit a sentence here or there during combat...joke with friends, etc. If you want to make combat more interactive, that's fine with me AS LONG as there is sufficient down-time between fights to facilitate chat. One big problem with Vanguard is the uber out-of-combat regen meant you could fight, practically, nonstop. Which meant that no one took the time to say anything other than "incoming."
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Yeah, because people play games so they can feel like peons!
In basically every MMO I play I always try and fit my character into a basic soldier role. Not some ultra special forces agent. No some secret assassin. The every man who gets up each morning, puts on his uniform, goes to work, and heads out on campaign on conflict erupts. Generally speaking I'm aligned with some faction (usually the bad guys, less children playing them) but nothing special. I do not want to be the saviour of the world. I don't want to marry a princess. I don't want to own a massive ship and terrorize the galaxy.
I just want to fill my role in the world. I want to lead other people and create a great community/guild. I want to PvP my enemy. I loved being a Stormtrooper in SWG before the NGE.
If that's being a "peon" to you then by all means, could some dev please make me Peon Online?
Guintu, Ah yes but that interactive combat comes at a price; and that price is player interaction. IN Eq, yes there are a lot of buttons to mash; but you could always fit a sentence here or there during combat...joke with friends, etc. If you want to make combat more interactive, that's fine with me AS LONG as there is sufficient down-time between fights to facilitate chat. One big problem with Vanguard is the uber out-of-combat regen meant you could fight, practically, nonstop. Which meant that no one took the time to say anything other than "incoming."
2 words "voice chat". I don't chat much when playing a game, I'm usually on ventrilo or on skype. I HATE type chatting in a game and I wish more games would put voice chat in them. 2 things that ruin immersion than 1) type chatting and 2) having to read quests. Doing either of those makes me feel like I'm playing a character thats deaf.
How do you feel about MMOs with more open-ended character progression (think Asheron's Call, EVE, SWG) versus MMOs based on a quest system (think WoW, AO, CoH) for character progression? What are the pros and cons of each? For example, on one hand a quest system gives direction and keeps things moving forward, but the progression is almost linear. Games without a quest system give more freedom but might be too open-ended or may become repetitive over time. Please feel free to give me some input on your opinions of each and which you prefer. Thanks for your time and consideration!
Like someone said earlier. A quest based system is often accompanied by a story with a cinematic feel. (Who would've thought that lady by the boy king wasn't even human and was plotting against the kingdom)
What I'd like to add though is this makes it easier for a player to roleplay in the world but this may make a roleplay harder to create if you have to follow the story to roleplay. (possibly compromising the lore in your roleplay)
A open ended world makes it easier for guilds to create their own roleplays and allows them to become a limited DM. (Land of a thousand kingdoms now go make your way in this world) Because they can't exactly start making the setting, place monsters, and etc like if they could for a non MMO game like Neverwinter Nights for example. At the same time though the new player or non roleplayer might feel overwhelmed or not know what to do.
Agreed, they both have their place, and their customer base to cater to. I think both can be fun. I like the feel of open ended games at times, but I also enjoy a good story, when well presented.
Comments
Also instancing is a small price to pay when you lead your own personal story. Taking away grinding is a huge positive, and many people have been complaining about too much grinding recently.
I, personally, have never quested in a larger group than 8 people; but that is just me.
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In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
Do not want!Linear quests suck.
1. They discourage players from adventuring (finding new places)
2. They discourage social play, because everyone is so hell bent on quests,they join you only if you're on the same quest...and leave the group as soon as they have what they need.
I'll explain #1 a bit more. The linear quests I've dealt with (in Vanguard and PoBS) led me around to various places; but I wouldn't call that exploring. They say "go talk to Joe at "some place" that I've marked on your map. So you travel, spending most of the time looking at the map instead of the world in front of you. Low and behold, you arrive at a new city. Yipee. But, did you really explore and discover? No, you were merely led around on a leash.
When players spend the bulk of their time staring at their map or quest-journal, they are depriving themselves of a lot of enjoyment. And this explains, probably, why people bored so rapidly of newly released MMOs like PoBS and Vanguard...the adventure simply wasn't there.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
This is what games like EQ and DAoC have. I don't know what made developers run away from that formula. You had the sandbox grind feeling, but in depth quests that you could take and actually feel like you accomplished something and it took time and effort to do.
You don't get it because you're failing to see the point of those quests that are thrust upon you.
In games like WoW questing is the fastest way to level. It is a means to an end. To excel in the game you must do the quests. If you try to purely grind on the mobs it will take you much longer and you will not gain any sort of advantage from it.
Now do you get the whole "linear" argument?
Are you stupid? EQ, UO, SWG and DAoC are not quest driven, were sandbox MMOs and held the attention of gamers.
It seems that as the internet got bigger, and more people had access to it and PC gaming became more popular it just got filled with a bunch of lazy tards who can't figure things out for themselves and need to be pointed in a direction.
I hate linear progression, and an "end game" all together. Yes you can max your stats, but as long as there are still fun things for you to do in the game of your choosing the game does not have to be "over" . I like games where you can choose what you want to do and when you want to do it .. and are not forced to do anything to get ahead. Where you actually have a choice as to how you want to play rather than be led around by npcs being told what to do. I like to be able to decide how and what I do in the game and be able to skip quests if I want as well. Freedom is very important in mmos.
LAUGH OUT FUCKING LOUD!!
What do you think you're doing in WoW? You're killing X Mob for X amount of time. The only difference is you have a piece of paper that told you to go do that and will give you some extra XP for doing it.
Take off the blinders or remain clueless forever.
That's adventure. It worked. Being new, not knowing where to go or what was around the corner created fascination. The sting of dying (i.e., experience loss) created fear and excitement. Making the run from Halas through Blackburrow and beyond was scary and exciting. In contrast, trekking across Netherstorm in WOW is "yawn" boring. Anything in WOW is "yawn" boring.
Why? No surprises, no penalty for dying (no significant penalty, anyway), no fear.
WOW-kiddie questland is NOT adventure, except for those who have never seen a real MMORPG. WOW is McDonalds. The great MMORPG's of yesteryear are legendary steakhouses that are no longer in business.
No, that's NOT fun at all. I don't want to lose experience because I'm killed. I rightfully earned that experience. I spent my time on that experience. I don't want to lose experience because I'm killed. 0.o There's no fun in that at all.
What you discribed is some dumb MUD 50 years old. That's no fun. MOVE LEFT IF YOU WANT TO VENTURE INTO THE FOREST OF MAGICAL MYSTERY. Gimmie a break already. It's a unending arguement that you all will always lose as long as WoW has 10 million subscribers, owns 65% of of the MMO market, and hyped up games like AoC are still released. You people remind me of those gothic kiddies that sit in the back of the classroom, hating everyone, with trench coats, black lipstick and 20 piercings in your nose. Just hating something only because everyone else loves it. You give no valid reason as to why you hate something. WoW has kiddies? WHO DOESN'T? Every game I've played I've met kiddies, no more in WoW than in GuildWars, or AO, etc. Nice try though
You're obviously 15, never played any of the old school MMOs and think that a large subscriber base = great game.
You remind me of the dumb ass in the corner who whenever the teacher called upon never had an answer to give and looked like a total ass.
WoW is easy, boring, and has no sense of achievement. Everyone in the end achieves the same damn thing. In old MMOs not everyone was the best.
But now WoW has made even the most unskilled player the best in the game.
Give me hidden story arcs for me to discover.
Give me constant NPC-driven events. That camp of bandits in zone #2? Why not let them actually attack a minor town every once in a while, instead of being purely quest fodder.
Give me mobs that are NOT part of some quest to obtain their livers. I want to be wandering through a dense jungle and be attacked by something that I don't have to kill 20 of.
DESTROY every single 'escort' quest. Or at least make the NPC you are escorting NOT aggro every mob in sight.
Give me a viable means of leveling up other than questing. I KNOW you can choose to go grind mobs instead of quest, but that's sort of like derailing your gaming cart from the roller coaster. The friggin cart you were riding was MEANT to ride the roller coaster. If you derail it, it's no fun just sitting in a cart in the middle of a field.
Give me a fun experience.
Their were a lot of posts so I haven't read all of them.
Well I also would like to see a game thats a little of both, a sandbox and has some quests. Just killing things for no reason gets dull. I also hate the quests where you're asked to get 25 tiger wiskers and you have to kill 100 to do that. A game called Rohan that just came out in beta so far has you kill 25 mobs to get 25 items which is nice. I also think that quests can be more versitile like in single player games. I'd like to see some sneaking missions to kill 1 person or sneak around a castle to steal treasure. You have thiefs and assassins in MMO's but they don't do any thiefery or assassinations. I'd also like if you go into an area it may be a warzone and you may have to fight you way to the other end where you have to be or try and find a safe way around it. It would also be nice if you're around someone and you ask for help and if someone does help you they get equel XP and treasure instead of having to group with people (but only if you ask for help or your health is down a certain percentage and they help you). Their are tons of ways MMO's can go and I thin in time they will but it takes time. Look at FPS' they started out with games like Doom where you just shoot and kill and thats it, then they went to simple missions and run and kill, now they're getting more complex and you can sneak and hide and find cover. Games just take time to progress, but in a few more years you'll see MMO's will be much different than they are today.
For the quests where you have your own personal story, where you lead your own path, where you have NPCs actually do something during a quest (enemy/allies), where you actually make an impact on the world, YOU NEED AN INSTANCE. When you lead your own personal story and do quests that actually matter, an instance is needed. For me, it is entirely worth it,which is why Citadel of Sorcery interests me so much.
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In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
Yeah, because people play games so they can feel like peons!
If I remember correctly, it has been awhile ago but the first level 50th players in EQ had many hours played time. (I imagine it was well over 40+ hrs a week) So were they 'skilled' or was EQ their life at the time? Old EQ rewarded time played (esp. grinding safe mobs) and risk adversion (don't die).
Boy that sounds like a blast no wonder its successor (EQII) got creemed.
Quests are ok, but there is something to be said about grinding mobs. It gets annoying when you see some guy out there killing some bandits and you decide...hey this may make things more interesting, what if we team up and kill them together. But when you get there and the person is 8 steps ahead of you on the quest chain, I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to waste an hour backtracking so were on the same step.
Most of the people I play these games with work 8+ hours a day, and I'm a slacker so I usually have more time to play, in a game like DaoC we could team up to level even if i was a few levels higher and not have to work backwards to get to the same point.
Yeah, because people play games so they can feel like peons!
If I remember correctly, it has been awhile ago but the first level 50th players in EQ had many hours played time. (I imagine it was well over 40+ hrs a week) So were they 'skilled' or was EQ their life at the time? Old EQ rewarded time played (esp. grinding safe mobs) and risk adversion (don't die).
Boy that sounds like a blast no wonder its successor (EQII) got creemed.
First off not everyone is a peon. Secondly, I'm sorry...but not everyone can be the best. It doesn't work that way in life, sports, or video games of any kind.
In EQ not everyone was the best, however, you were sure to be better than someone else depending on level and gear. Also, there was this thing called a "sense of achievement" in the game. When you leveled it was a milestone, when you got some new gear it was a milestone, when you finally got to a new zone to group with other players...MILESTONE. Quests weren't the norm and those who dared to do them felt, again, a sense of achievement because they took more than clicking an "accept" button and killing 5 Boars.
OH NOES IT TOOK LONG TIMES TO LEVEL IN DAH GAMEZ!!
What are you in such a rush to get to the end game content anyways? In EQ and other older MMOs, the adventure and experience was in the progression. When you got to the end, finally, sure...there was more to do, but the journey to the end was best.
In WoW....the journey to 70 is dull...nothing very exciting. What's at the end of WoW? MORE GRINDING!!
CONGRATULATIONS YOU GOT TO 70 LIKE THE REST OF OUR 10 MILLION SUBSCRIBER BASE!! NOW DO SOME MORE GRINDING NOOB!
EQ2 did horrible because SOE strayed away from the formula that made EQ such a good game. Most of the EQ player base either stayed in EQ or played WoW till they got bored of it and went back to EQ. EQ2 was a failure and I'd like to punch the development team for turning such a successful IP into shit.
Also, EQ2 was plagued by the same thing that plagues AoC...the requirements to play the game were incredibly too high at that time for most gamers to run and why drop 1k on a new rig when you can just play WoW and be the best alongside every other scrub player wearing purps?
Hell I'm 22 and you're in your 40s. Was your first MMO WoW? If so, that's probably why you don't understand what me and the other are pissed off about. It's also probably why you like WoW. Because you're a casual gamer and you're also new to MMOs in the first place.
WoW is like Pre-school when it comes to MMOs. Takes no effort at all and you can breeze through it while you take a nap and takes about as much skill as reciting your ABCs.
The old school MMOs...sort of like the glory days of baseball...before Blizzard came in and ruined the whole game.
I agree with many of the other posters here that a hybrid system that presents quests, but doesn't force you to do them to level, would be the best model.
Quest: A search or pursuit made in order to find or obtain something
Let's consider this philosophy. What if quests weren't just an alternative to leveling, but something different entirely? What if you did a quest not to get experience points, but to see something you couldn't see anywhere else in a MMO?
Take this for example:
John Doe is walking through a town when he notices a shopkeeper nervously pacing back and forth outside the entrance to his store. John talks to said shopkeeper to learn that the deliveryman for a very important package has not arrived this morning and he fears that his buyer will not tolerate a late shipment. Said shopkeeper asks John if he is willing to take a temporary job of delivering this package in the lazy deliveryman's place. Begin Quest
John agrees and is given a small map with the delivery site location, Area B. The delivery site can only be accessed by traveling through area A in order to reach area B. John starts his journey and within a short while arrives in Area A.
While walking through area A, a cinematic event occurs (Instance). A band of mercenaries rides up on horseback, surrounds John, and draws their swords. The lead vagabond's eyes stare intently at the package... John quickly determines that they're after the package.
Player is now thrown into a combat scenario against these mercenaries.
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Let's say John loses - The mercenaries make off with the package, but one drops an item that provides a clue to their hideout. John respawns at X place -> Next step in quest is to find their hideout and get the package back.
If John wins (or when he gets the package back) - He has a multitude of choices.
First, should I open the box to see what they're after, or should I just continue and deliver the package? Quest End 1
Let's say John opens the package and discovers it's a magic relic that allows him to use a spell unattainable anywhere else. John recognizes the relic as an artifact treasured by a prominent kingdom.
John has a few choices... Should he just keep the relic? Quest End 2
Should he continue onward to his destination, knowing that there may be danger ahead... and perhaps other treasures? (Some other sort of fight here when he reaches the destination) Quest End 3
Perhaps he should return the artifact to the kingdom and explain what has happened... It is obvious there are some shady dealings afoot and he wishes to learn more about the shopkeeper. Quest End 4
No matter which choice he picks, John realizes at the end of the quest... I wonder what happened to the deliveryman? Could the mercenaries looking to steal the relic have killed him? New quest in chain
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Such a quest begins looking like a normal "Go from A to B" quest, but ends up being quite complicated. Each of these quest endings could reward the character in different ways. End 1 could lead to a chained quest which has him working in the black market of this trade involving the shopkeeper... 2 would give him access to the spell... 3 might have a heavy monetary award with it... and 4 might lead to a large quest chain to investigate the dealings of the shopkeeper, expose a thievery ring, and earn him a title of "Honorary Knight" or such that all players would be able to see.
Now, if there was a major MMO that did everything else right but did quests like this, who in the world would be playing games with such pathetic tasks as "Kill 20 boars and you get some shiny exp points!"? Not I, that's for sure. Games that have such quests (or even worse, have dozens of them) belong in the bargain bin in my book.
The point of all this isn't whether a sandbox MMO not driven by quests or a quest-based MMO would be a better design. It's that the best design would be that which quests are actually something different, new, and unique that you want to do and experience because you can't experience something like them anywhere else in the MMO.
But hey, if you want to stick to games that have kill quests and "We have a temporary opening at Fed-Ex!" quests as an alternative means to level... then by all means, go ahead. To me, it's no different than grinding mobs for hours on end; repetitive, boring actions that give me no incentive to feel immersed, role-play, or feel anything that vaguely resembles fun.
P.S. If anyone happens to know an upcoming MMO in which every quest is planned to be something unique like the example I listed, please do tell.
The difference is - grinding in the old-school mmo's meant spending hours upon hours with certain people - developing friendships, guilds, etc. Grinding in WoW separates everyone as much as possible. Sure, you can group to get things done, but why do that? WoW is a MSORPG - a massively single-player online role-playing game. Try soloing your way to endgame in EQ, or DAoC. And just to make things clear, people aren't hanging on to those games or using them as examples because that's all they know - its because they were good games, a far cry better than the sh*t game developers are shovelling now.
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/played: EQ, EQ II, DAoC, WoW, LoTRO, AoC, CoH/CoV, WAR, Aion, Tera, Wildstar and many others that don't merit listing
/playing: Clash of Clans, Hearthstone
The difference is - grinding in the old-school mmo's meant spending hours upon hours with certain people - developing friendships, guilds, etc. Grinding in WoW separates everyone as much as possible. Sure, you can group to get things done, but why do that? WoW is a MSORPG - a massively single-player online role-playing game. Try soloing your way to endgame in EQ, or DAoC. And just to make things clear, people aren't hanging on to those games or using them as examples because that's all they know - its because they were good games, a far cry better than the sh*t game developers are shovelling now.
QFT. I doubt they will ever realize it or ever admit to it, however.
The difference is - grinding in the old-school mmo's meant spending hours upon hours with certain people - developing friendships, guilds, etc. Grinding in WoW separates everyone as much as possible. Sure, you can group to get things done, but why do that? WoW is a MSORPG - a massively single-player online role-playing game. Try soloing your way to endgame in EQ, or DAoC. And just to make things clear, people aren't hanging on to those games or using them as examples because that's all they know - its because they were good games, a far cry better than the sh*t game developers are shovelling now.
QFT. I doubt they will ever realize it or ever admit to it, however.
I've played the old-school MMO's and grinded with friends and guilds and such and I still got bored. Games like EQ and WoW a like are plegued with the same thing and thats the fighting style in the game. No matter if a game is open ended or quest driven its going to be dull because of the plane old auto attack thats found in most MMO's now a days. AoC has changed this a bit, you have more control over your hits, when you run away you don't have someone chasing after you hitting you with his sword from 20 feet away, or have arrows following you like heat seeking missiles. I think once we get more games with better combat mechanics then the grind won't seem as bad.
What do we like about games like Oblivian and Bio Shock? I know I like the story line, the openness of the games, the fact that the NPC's talk to you instead of having to read everything, and their are other ways to do the quests. Then their are games like Thief and Hitman where you can sneak around and steal and sneak past people to kill one person. As single player games get better so will MMO's but it'll take longer for MMO's because of the multi-player aspects of the game and the hugeness of the worlds. Think of a game like GTA 4 but an MMO (sure I know APB and Crime Craft are coming out but I haven't seen them yet so I'm not sure how good they'll be) instead of a first person game with multi-player aspects in it? This is what I have to hope for in an MMO.
Guintu,
Ah yes but that interactive combat comes at a price; and that price is player interaction. IN Eq, yes there are a lot of buttons to mash; but you could always fit a sentence here or there during combat...joke with friends, etc. If you want to make combat more interactive, that's fine with me AS LONG as there is sufficient down-time between fights to facilitate chat. One big problem with Vanguard is the uber out-of-combat regen meant you could fight, practically, nonstop. Which meant that no one took the time to say anything other than "incoming."
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Double post.
In basically every MMO I play I always try and fit my character into a basic soldier role. Not some ultra special forces agent. No some secret assassin. The every man who gets up each morning, puts on his uniform, goes to work, and heads out on campaign on conflict erupts. Generally speaking I'm aligned with some faction (usually the bad guys, less children playing them) but nothing special. I do not want to be the saviour of the world. I don't want to marry a princess. I don't want to own a massive ship and terrorize the galaxy.
I just want to fill my role in the world. I want to lead other people and create a great community/guild. I want to PvP my enemy. I loved being a Stormtrooper in SWG before the NGE.
If that's being a "peon" to you then by all means, could some dev please make me Peon Online?
2 words "voice chat". I don't chat much when playing a game, I'm usually on ventrilo or on skype. I HATE type chatting in a game and I wish more games would put voice chat in them. 2 things that ruin immersion than 1) type chatting and 2) having to read quests. Doing either of those makes me feel like I'm playing a character thats deaf.
Like someone said earlier. A quest based system is often accompanied by a story with a cinematic feel. (Who would've thought that lady by the boy king wasn't even human and was plotting against the kingdom)
What I'd like to add though is this makes it easier for a player to roleplay in the world but this may make a roleplay harder to create if you have to follow the story to roleplay. (possibly compromising the lore in your roleplay)
A open ended world makes it easier for guilds to create their own roleplays and allows them to become a limited DM. (Land of a thousand kingdoms now go make your way in this world) Because they can't exactly start making the setting, place monsters, and etc like if they could for a non MMO game like Neverwinter Nights for example. At the same time though the new player or non roleplayer might feel overwhelmed or not know what to do.
Edit: correction from GM to DM lol and grammar
AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017
Refugee of Auberean
Refugee of Dereth
Agreed, they both have their place, and their customer base to cater to. I think both can be fun. I like the feel of open ended games at times, but I also enjoy a good story, when well presented.
May the Chaos forever bind you to it's glory.