It's a bit of a travel back in time, but I remember a similar argument about Diablo and whether it was a real RPG or not. The bottom line, it didn't matter. The game was fun and a huge success for the company.
As long as AoC is fun for those who play it, definitions are irrelevant.
So I guess there's 3, maybe 4, types of MMOs as far as instancing is concerned? 1. Private/small group instances - DDO, Hellgate, Guild Wars 2. Zoned player-count limited instances - Tabula Rasa, AoC 3. Single open world, group adventure instances - WoW, LOTRO, DAoC 4. Single open world, zero instances - are there any? (EVE?)
Classic EQ would fall in 4th category. Not now of course, after dungeons of Norrath, now it's a 3. EQ2 it's a 2.
Tha'ts a nice classification by the way. I only would change a bit the titles for simplification, just a suggestion (i finally added another, for what WAR seems to be aiming at, not sure though):
Not reading through pages of possible crap and lv1-20 people.
For those who have gone through Tortage and into Stygia etc, you would see that its not like GW. Just yesterday I did levels 22-29 with only zoning twice (group instance) and that was 5-6 hours of play while still interacting and playing with 80ish people in the same zone (grouping for quests so no waiting on spawns).
Oh and its also very worth it to group with people as there is no XP loss like WoW. When grouped with people questing and grinding becomes 2x productive a with 3, 3x etc.
If only people could understand the concept of zone mirroring (I'll give you a hint, the main reason is in my post).
Oh and player Housing, Keeps, and Shops wont be zoned/instanced.
well i would have to think it reduces 'graphical' lag people get when there are 47562349572 people chilling in the same area waiting for a single mob spawn....(new WoW servers ftl).
i for one am looking forward to playing AoC when it arrives within the week.
Oh and why do people get hung up on if its really a MMORPG or not? Enjoy playing the game? then play it, if not go play something else. pretty simple imho.
Massive (it is, server population is as big as any other MMO out there) Multiplayer (It certainly is) Online (That too) Role Playing Game (Character advancement, world, lore, the RPG element is there)
So yes, it is an MMORPG.
Cities with 40 men instances limits are NOT massive. Nor are the closed up worlds loaded with minute long loading screens.
The only massive in Conan are the loading screens and massive absence of promised materiel like the massive sieges.
More like 100men instances limits and 2-5seconds long loading screens.
Massive (it is, server population is as big as any other MMO out there) Multiplayer (It certainly is) Online (That too) Role Playing Game (Character advancement, world, lore, the RPG element is there)
So yes, it is an MMORPG.
So in your opinion Massive means having 50 people on the same instanced zone apart from everyone else ?
And having 30 instanced copies of that zone running separetely...?
Massive for me means having 1 world with 3.000 players in it..and if im in a zone anyone can see me there..because its not an instanced zone...
We have really huge difference in opinions ..your massive is a instanced zone full with 50 people
My massive is a huge world comom to everyplayer full with 3.000 players...i think i win...
well i would have to think it reduces 'graphical' lag people get when there are 47562349572 people chilling in the same area waiting for a single mob spawn....(new WoW servers ftl).
i for one am looking forward to playing AoC when it arrives within the week. Oh and why do people get hung up on if its really a MMORPG or not? Enjoy playing the game? then play it, if not go play something else. pretty simple imho.
Massive (it is, server population is as big as any other MMO out there) Multiplayer (It certainly is) Online (That too) Role Playing Game (Character advancement, world, lore, the RPG element is there)
So yes, it is an MMORPG.
Cities with 40 men instances limits are NOT massive. Nor are the closed up worlds loaded with minute long loading screens.
The only massive in Conan are the loading screens and massive absence of promised materiel like the massive sieges.
Load times are almost absolutely minimal considering you will spend minimal 6 hours in each zone leveling (not including group instancing) and the zones being big and nicely done.
So in your opinion Massive means having 50 people on the same instanced zone apart from everyone else ?
And having 30 instanced copies of that zone running separetely...?
Massive for me means having 1 world with 3.000 players in it..and if im in a zone anyone can see me there..because its not an instanced zone... We have really huge difference in opinions ..your massive is a instanced zone full with 50 people My massive is a huge world comom to everyplayer full with 3.000 players...i think i win...
Well then go back to Warhammer Online and .... wait ... WAR hasn't been launched yet .. no wonder the kids are bashing around in the AOC forum.
Are you actually seeing 3000 people at once? How would the game run if all 3000 players walked into the same area.. I'll bet it the game would crash and burn after a few hundred players arrived (forgetting the fact the game became unplayable before this point was reached).
If AoC's instancing is the worst thing people can bitch about then...lol. Isn't that called grabbing at straws or something?
ha that is what i was thinking.
quit trying to find something wrong with some thing that is doing pretty well already. so what it isnt working 100%, nothing does at first, always takes a bit of fine tuning. things will get fixed, new stuff will be added, it will be a bit buggy, they will fix it, more stuff will be added...do you see where i am going with this?
Don't mine Zorndorf, he's just a hater. I thought he loved WoW, thus why he's bashing AoC with such a passion (not logical, I know). But if he loved WoW so much, he wouldn't be spending so much time and especially, energy, on these forums. Back in my old WoW days, my entire out of game time was spent in organising raids and running my beloved guild. I didn't even care about mmorpg.com beyond the announcements.
What does that tell you?
As for the MMORPG, massive refers to the how many people a server can hold at one time. If we all agree that EVE is not a normal game, then every other game listed is indeed massive. Anything else is just people making up artificial interpretations of what MMORPG should mean and not what it really is.
Some people like aoc...good..but the real mmo lovers are quiting fast, quited already, and soom others will follow...aoc will be just another online game some people consider an mmo...with enough subs to keep the game up...
I dont think funcom wanted alot of players to play the game..they want a small group of players that like this type of "mmo"..if they wanted huge numbers playing aoc..they would make a normal combat system, open world with no loadings or instancing of zones...
actually i think corpg sounds a very good way of describing what aoc is .
Some people like aoc...good..but the real mmo lovers are quiting fast, quited already, and soom others will follow...aoc will be just another online game some people consider an mmo...with enough subs to keep the game up...
I dont think funcom wanted alot of players to play the game..they want a small group of players that like this type of "mmo"..if they wanted huge numbers playing aoc..they would make a normal combat system, open world with no loadings or instancing of zones...
actually i think corpg sounds a very good way of describing what aoc is .
Come off it guys, this is a lame flame thread that stands out on a site of lame flame threads.
If CoH is a MMORPG, which noone has EVER questioned, then AoC is.
Period.
They use exactly the same game world/ instance model.
Really, please stop grasping at straws to try and create bad feeling towards this excellent, if sometimes flawed, game.
It's like the haters on this board have an agenda or something, I swear.
I dont think funcom wanted alot of players to play the game..they want a small group of players that like this type of "mmo"..if they wanted huge numbers playing aoc..they would make a normal combat system, open world with no loadings or instancing of zones...
OMG you are funny! What you are saying is that nothing must change, everything must be done exactly like it was when you began to play MMOs and it should never change because it perfect. Any new ideas are bad.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
Some people like aoc...good..but the real mmo lovers are quiting fast, quited already, and soom others will follow...aoc will be just another online game some people consider an mmo...with enough subs to keep the game up...
I dont think funcom wanted alot of players to play the game..they want a small group of players that like this type of "mmo"..if they wanted huge numbers playing aoc..they would make a normal combat system, open world with no loadings or instancing of zones...
I've been playing MMOs since 1998 so I believe that qualifies me as a MMO lover. From EQ,AO, DAoC,Shadowbane,SWG,WoW,EQ2,Vanguard etc. etc. I've played every new mmo that has come out over the years and I'm here to tell you, without a doubt, unequivocably, AoC is a mmo and is a great game with more potential to be better than any mmo I've seen come down the pipe since EQ. The combat mechanics are not dumbed down so you don't sit there and auto attack. If you don't pay attention you're dead. Plain and simple. If you don't believe AoC is a mmo then you don't know what a mmo is or you just haven't tried it.
If AoC's instancing is the worst thing people can bitch about then...lol. Isn't that called grabbing at straws or something?
LOL
Yeah, the AOC haters are getting desperate.
Look at the thread: it is about instancing.
It means Conan failed in the open seamless world thing.
For other shortcomings look at the zillion other threads under system lag, no content beyond 50, non functional chat panel, absence of sieges itemisation problems, 2D blocking terrains etc etc etc...
How the fuck you fail in something you never planning to do?
Many use WoW as an example for open world, but the fact is that I spend more time zoning in various instances in WoW at level 60 or 70 than I have so far done in AoC. Both games have key end-game aspects instanced - BGs, group instances, raids, and arena. Plus changing a region in both games is instanced. While the adventuring (levelling) zones in WoW are not instanced and in AoC they are.
I actually understand why Hyboria is instanced besides what have been stated here before. The fact is that we only have three kingdoms open so far and within them only very few adventure zones and areas relating to those. Mostly those are meant to help you level your character with nice quest lore behind every zone that actually is nicely detailed. All open areas in those zones have been handcrafted with very realistic terrain design and look vs. very flat-design that many other more "open" games have.
Adventure zones in AoC do not differ much in terms of purpose as they are in WoW. Only difference is that you in AoC you zone into one and it takes typically 2-10 seconds. In WoW you fly or ride that takes usually many minutes.
In the end you spend a lot of time in instanced group and raid content.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I think the real problem here is that the group of people defending the none instances zones have only played WOW so it turns into WOW v AOC argument.
WOW is not the only MMO that has continent size zones. LOTR has the same and some areas are not connected by single paths, you can freely travel between borders at any location the two areas meet. FFXI also has continent size zones but these are connected with small paths like WOW.
The point is that there are just as many game out there with instancing as there are with full zones, and apparently people were expecting full zones from Conan because of the PvP aspect they kept pushing. With the limited population zones it means that the PvPing is going to be relegated to only certain areas and...... it basically turned this game into one of the many others that have done this already.
It isn't bad but when I'm running around in a drunken rage cutting heads off..... i dont want people teleporting to other zones to escape.
Just like Guild Wars it is debatable if you can call it a TRUE MMO.
Even those, that really love the game as it is, would be hard pressed to say with a straight face that this game is closer to WoW than Guild Wars.
I know that some people will like the instancing, but for others like me, its a death killer.
Guild Wars didn't have a monthly fee!
AoC is a semi'ish mmorpg at best. At least it is online. Okay so it is not massive. Multiplayer hybrid of some sorts. RPG is debateable... but without any social structure and devoid of basic sandbox elements it is not really a RPG.
For all people b*tch about WoW and it's so "this this and this" I bet they really miss being able to move from one side of the world to the other without any loading screens. Oh, I'm sorry, there are two loading screens. One when you switch continents and one when you enter a dungeon/raid/battleground. Ever run from Booty Bay to Silvermoon? Naked? In a race? That is open world. Oh wait, there is one 5 second load screen when you enter the new elven lands, but it exists as a physical barrier for those w/o the Burning Crusdade expansion. rofl instanced zones. GG guild wars/AoC
I played wow since launch, and they did have load screens, when instancing, which now actually happens alot especially at higher levels, and when you travel like on the Blimps. Please dont use WoW as a open world, because it technically isnt, most of the gameplay that takes place now in WoW is basically Heroics/BG's very rarely to you see people take advantage of the open world, why? because everyone is grinding high level instances for gear and attunements. WoW may have been open world at some point early launch, but that quickly changed with the expansion.
Comments
It's a bit of a travel back in time, but I remember a similar argument about Diablo and whether it was a real RPG or not. The bottom line, it didn't matter. The game was fun and a huge success for the company.
As long as AoC is fun for those who play it, definitions are irrelevant.
if only 4 people can play a game then no that would not be a MMO (console coop/FPS game)
if over 10 can play a game then i still think that is not a MMO but close (big LAN Party or console gaming)
if 50 can play a game then i would have to say that is a MMO but small (most FPS are MMO console/pc)
if 100+ can play a game then i would have to say that is a MMO (most PC MMORPG and now comming to console)
and if hellgate london is called a MMO and its 99% instance then yes a full instanced game can be called that
Tha'ts a nice classification by the way. I only would change a bit the titles for simplification, just a suggestion (i finally added another, for what WAR seems to be aiming at, not sure though):
1. Closed World, all instanced.
2. Instanced zones and dungeons.
3. Instanced dungeons.
4. Instanced bosses.
5. Open World, zero instances.
Not reading through pages of possible crap and lv1-20 people.
For those who have gone through Tortage and into Stygia etc, you would see that its not like GW. Just yesterday I did levels 22-29 with only zoning twice (group instance) and that was 5-6 hours of play while still interacting and playing with 80ish people in the same zone (grouping for quests so no waiting on spawns).
Oh and its also very worth it to group with people as there is no XP loss like WoW. When grouped with people questing and grinding becomes 2x productive a with 3, 3x etc.
If only people could understand the concept of zone mirroring (I'll give you a hint, the main reason is in my post).
Oh and player Housing, Keeps, and Shops wont be zoned/instanced.
well i would have to think it reduces 'graphical' lag people get when there are 47562349572 people chilling in the same area waiting for a single mob spawn....(new WoW servers ftl).
i for one am looking forward to playing AoC when it arrives within the week.
Oh and why do people get hung up on if its really a MMORPG or not? Enjoy playing the game? then play it, if not go play something else. pretty simple imho.
The only massive in Conan are the loading screens and massive absence of promised materiel like the massive sieges.
More like 100men instances limits and 2-5seconds long loading screens.Stop pulling your "facts" out of your a*se!
So in your opinion Massive means having 50 people on the same instanced zone apart from everyone else ?
And having 30 instanced copies of that zone running separetely...?
Massive for me means having 1 world with 3.000 players in it..and if im in a zone anyone can see me there..because its not an instanced zone...
We have really huge difference in opinions ..your massive is a instanced zone full with 50 people
My massive is a huge world comom to everyplayer full with 3.000 players...i think i win...
aoc is a MMORPG means MINI MULTIPLAYER ONLINE RPG
Well said.
The only massive in Conan are the loading screens and massive absence of promised materiel like the massive sieges.
Load times are almost absolutely minimal considering you will spend minimal 6 hours in each zone leveling (not including group instancing) and the zones being big and nicely done.
Note: Get the fuck out of Tortage before posting.
Well then go back to Warhammer Online and .... wait ... WAR hasn't been launched yet .. no wonder the kids are bashing around in the AOC forum.
Are you actually seeing 3000 people at once? How would the game run if all 3000 players walked into the same area.. I'll bet it the game would crash and burn after a few hundred players arrived (forgetting the fact the game became unplayable before this point was reached).
If AoC's instancing is the worst thing people can bitch about then...lol. Isn't that called grabbing at straws or something?
Yes i know, Action RPG, but some just can't leave it out comparing with AOC. BTW, its listed on MMORPG.COM. And GW was/is successful.
Yeah, the AOC haters are getting desperate.
ha that is what i was thinking.
quit trying to find something wrong with some thing that is doing pretty well already. so what it isnt working 100%, nothing does at first, always takes a bit of fine tuning. things will get fixed, new stuff will be added, it will be a bit buggy, they will fix it, more stuff will be added...do you see where i am going with this?
Don't mine Zorndorf, he's just a hater. I thought he loved WoW, thus why he's bashing AoC with such a passion (not logical, I know). But if he loved WoW so much, he wouldn't be spending so much time and especially, energy, on these forums. Back in my old WoW days, my entire out of game time was spent in organising raids and running my beloved guild. I didn't even care about mmorpg.com beyond the announcements.
What does that tell you?
As for the MMORPG, massive refers to the how many people a server can hold at one time. If we all agree that EVE is not a normal game, then every other game listed is indeed massive. Anything else is just people making up artificial interpretations of what MMORPG should mean and not what it really is.
actually i think corpg sounds a very good way of describing what aoc is .
actually i think corpg sounds a very good way of describing what aoc is .
Come off it guys, this is a lame flame thread that stands out on a site of lame flame threads.
If CoH is a MMORPG, which noone has EVER questioned, then AoC is.
Period.
They use exactly the same game world/ instance model.
Really, please stop grasping at straws to try and create bad feeling towards this excellent, if sometimes flawed, game.
It's like the haters on this board have an agenda or something, I swear.
OMG you are funny! What you are saying is that nothing must change, everything must be done exactly like it was when you began to play MMOs and it should never change because it perfect. Any new ideas are bad.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
I've been playing MMOs since 1998 so I believe that qualifies me as a MMO lover. From EQ,AO, DAoC,Shadowbane,SWG,WoW,EQ2,Vanguard etc. etc. I've played every new mmo that has come out over the years and I'm here to tell you, without a doubt, unequivocably, AoC is a mmo and is a great game with more potential to be better than any mmo I've seen come down the pipe since EQ. The combat mechanics are not dumbed down so you don't sit there and auto attack. If you don't pay attention you're dead. Plain and simple. If you don't believe AoC is a mmo then you don't know what a mmo is or you just haven't tried it.
Yeah, the AOC haters are getting desperate.
Look at the thread: it is about instancing.It means Conan failed in the open seamless world thing.
For other shortcomings look at the zillion other threads under system lag, no content beyond 50, non functional chat panel, absence of sieges itemisation problems, 2D blocking terrains etc etc etc...
How the fuck you fail in something you never planning to do?
Many use WoW as an example for open world, but the fact is that I spend more time zoning in various instances in WoW at level 60 or 70 than I have so far done in AoC. Both games have key end-game aspects instanced - BGs, group instances, raids, and arena. Plus changing a region in both games is instanced. While the adventuring (levelling) zones in WoW are not instanced and in AoC they are.
I actually understand why Hyboria is instanced besides what have been stated here before. The fact is that we only have three kingdoms open so far and within them only very few adventure zones and areas relating to those. Mostly those are meant to help you level your character with nice quest lore behind every zone that actually is nicely detailed. All open areas in those zones have been handcrafted with very realistic terrain design and look vs. very flat-design that many other more "open" games have.
Adventure zones in AoC do not differ much in terms of purpose as they are in WoW. Only difference is that you in AoC you zone into one and it takes typically 2-10 seconds. In WoW you fly or ride that takes usually many minutes.
In the end you spend a lot of time in instanced group and raid content.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Just like Guild Wars it is debatable if you can call it a TRUE MMO.
Even those, that really love the game as it is, would be hard pressed to say with a straight face that this game is closer to WoW than Guild Wars.
I know that some people will like the instancing, but for others like me, its a death killer.
I think the real problem here is that the group of people defending the none instances zones have only played WOW so it turns into WOW v AOC argument.
WOW is not the only MMO that has continent size zones. LOTR has the same and some areas are not connected by single paths, you can freely travel between borders at any location the two areas meet. FFXI also has continent size zones but these are connected with small paths like WOW.
The point is that there are just as many game out there with instancing as there are with full zones, and apparently people were expecting full zones from Conan because of the PvP aspect they kept pushing. With the limited population zones it means that the PvPing is going to be relegated to only certain areas and...... it basically turned this game into one of the many others that have done this already.
It isn't bad but when I'm running around in a drunken rage cutting heads off..... i dont want people teleporting to other zones to escape.
MMEEEEEHHHHH!!!
Guild Wars didn't have a monthly fee!
AoC is a semi'ish mmorpg at best. At least it is online. Okay so it is not massive. Multiplayer hybrid of some sorts. RPG is debateable... but without any social structure and devoid of basic sandbox elements it is not really a RPG.
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my signature:
freedom of information
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/182770
I played wow since launch, and they did have load screens, when instancing, which now actually happens alot especially at higher levels, and when you travel like on the Blimps. Please dont use WoW as a open world, because it technically isnt, most of the gameplay that takes place now in WoW is basically Heroics/BG's very rarely to you see people take advantage of the open world, why? because everyone is grinding high level instances for gear and attunements. WoW may have been open world at some point early launch, but that quickly changed with the expansion.