Hi, yes I do believe in god and in fact i'm a MUSLIM. When people see this, i always get insulted because of it but I think that they don't truly know what Islam is about. Most people get their info from the news, from which Islam gets a lot of bashing because of terrorism. What most people don't bother to find out is that what these terrorists do is completely against Islam because they kill innocent people. Also I never read about people disproving Islam. It's usually Christianity that gets bashed. Well...I challenge some one to disprove Islam. I am strong in my faith because science has not been able to prove it wrong yet. Many scientists have become muslims after attempting to disprove it because they realise that they can't and it must be in fact the divine word from god. The Qur'an (Islamic holy book similar to the bible) has been proven by science for example: “Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse” “And the mountains as pegs?” [Al-Qur’an 78:6-7] Its has only been recently proved that mountains have deep roots shaped like pegs...how can a illiterate man know this?
Exactly, religion misunderstood is a problem...not the religion itself. You have to be pretty stupid to blame the fundamentals of a religion for terrorism or other events which take place on this Earth.
Of course Religion itself is a problem. It asks that you give your time (the only time you will ever have), your money, and your trust to something that is make-believe. In return, it gives, what?
Pay attention to what you said there.
If someone or something asks you to do something, you are the one making the choice. That does not mean that religion is the problem but instead the people choosing to follow it in a fundamentalist and un-challenging way.
When making these arguments, it is important to follow the flow of logic or else you will be tripped up every time. This argument is no better than the one Ben Stein was making in his movie pointing the blame for Hitler's eugenics program towards Darwin. Or the argument the anti-gun crowd makes. It's displacement of blame and gives people a pass for not thinking.
yes. i did just say that. i believe it would be instinctual. did you just say your conscious was ignorant without any "outside influences"? Our civilization has moved past believing that it takes a god/gods to move the sun, make the wind blow, and that demon's aren't the reason for diseases. That is PROGRESS. The fact that a human mind needs to understand all things, even those things beyond its current ability to research and comprehend, is the reason for gods and mythology. It is telling a fictional story to replace the natural truth . we seperate ourselves from most all other creatures in our world because of our brain and our ability to process thought and reason. if left alont and unfiltered, you would believe in god. Or possibly gods, or invisible spirits, or woodland fairies, or a host of other things that DO NOT EXIST. Just because it is human nature to do what I mentioned earlier, doesn't mean that it is proof of the supernatural. i think the only reason anyone bashes religion is due to its man made fallacies in the writings. humans always want a gold star on their papers for a job well done. a pat on the back. God on the other hand is in us all. where would you be without evolution I ask? Man-made fallacies? The whole thing is a man-made fallacy. There isn't a supernatural origin for any of it. Judeo-Christian beliefs originated a few thousand years ago in a desert with a bunch of tribesmen. They wrote down the current rules and fictional stories (some occurring in real places, which often confuses people -- like Godzilla marching through Tokyo), and called it religion. Today, we've thrown out the majority of those rules because our civilization has evolved beyond a fear of multiple materials in our clothing and a woman's period. And where would I be without Evolution? Un-Evolved. And, no fictional being is inside of me, so keep your weird rape fantasies away from me. the argument is folly because God cannot be disproven. God has proven himself with your surroundings and your instincts. No need to disprove God. God needs to be proven. And no, my instincts and surroundings are not that proof. That is lame. Lame lame lame lame lame. God by definition is intelligent design in my books. Well, if by that you mean we intelligently designed him, then sure... kinda. I think we could have made someone better. Like superman, or something.
Hi, yes I do believe in god and in fact i'm a MUSLIM. When people see this, i always get insulted because of it but I think that they don't truly know what Islam is about. Most people get their info from the news, from which Islam gets a lot of bashing because of terrorism. What most people don't bother to find out is that what these terrorists do is completely against Islam because they kill innocent people. Also I never read about people disproving Islam. It's usually Christianity that gets bashed. Well...I challenge some one to disprove Islam. I am strong in my faith because science has not been able to prove it wrong yet. Many scientists have become muslims after attempting to disprove it because they realise that they can't and it must be in fact the divine word from god. The Qur'an (Islamic holy book similar to the bible) has been proven by science for example: “Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse” “And the mountains as pegs?” [Al-Qur’an 78:6-7] Its has only been recently proved that mountains have deep roots shaped like pegs...how can a illiterate man know this?
Exactly, religion misunderstood is a problem...not the religion itself. You have to be pretty stupid to blame the fundamentals of a religion for terrorism or other events which take place on this Earth.
Of course Religion itself is a problem. It asks that you give your time (the only time you will ever have), your money, and your trust to something that is make-believe. In return, it gives, what?
Pay attention to what you said there.
If someone or something asks you to do something, you are the one making the choice. That does not mean that religion is the problem but instead the people choosing to follow it in a fundamentalist and un-challenging way.
When making these arguments, it is important to follow the flow of logic or else you will be tripped up every time. This argument is no better than the one Ben Stein was making in his movie pointing the blame for Hitler's eugenics program towards Darwin. Or the argument the anti-gun crowd makes. It's displacement of blame and gives people a pass for not thinking.
Sorry, let me change the word. It 'demands', as in, parents raise their children and demand them to be in this religion. Society demands that these same children act like good little religious bots. Religious fanatics place their symbols and books in the public square in order to try to normalize it. Our own minds attempt to go along with the general sway of the majority in order for us to fit in (which is whatever majority religion happens to be in your country). And if you rebel? Christians tend to say, "If you don't like it, move to another country." Yeah, a LOT of them say that. So, I mispoke. It is never 'asks'. I was being gentle.. Not sure why, I'm usually not.
So, it's not like you're gently asked one day, "Hey, excuse me. Would you like to be a Christian? No? Okay. Have a nice day." Yeah, right. Most people are born into it, or if not, they are backed by a social structure that welcomes it. If you had been born 6,000 years ago in Asia, you would be on a slightly different track than you are now. But don't worry, the people around you would have told you what to believe, normalized it, and you could sneer at anyone who felt differently.
Religion is a belief in the non-existent. It is a belief in what others have made up. I've made up a lot of fictional characters for screenplays and books, I just don't expect you to worship them. Yes, you can give me your time by reading it, and I'll definitely take your money if you wish to purchase any of the books or movies they are in. I'm all about that.... just don't dedicate a building to any of the characters or spend more than a few hours, total, engaged in them. That's creepy.
So yeah, I agree. People are the problem. People made religion. People dedicate their lives to the worthless cause of it. People use it to abuse other people -- whether knowingly or unknowingly. People use it to help other people and don't realize how badly they fail.
Don't bloody well sit there and tell me it's a great and wonderful thing if it just weren't for all of these people who follow it. Religion can't stand on its own. There is nothing there without people. And yes, it is a problem for all of the reasons I mentioned, and more.
And if you ever compare me to Ben Stein again, I'll call a witch doctor and curse you for the rest of your life. Or a Priest, and have you excommunicated.
yes. i did just say that. i believe it would be instinctual. did you just say your conscious was ignorant without any "outside influences"? Our civilization has moved past believing that it takes a god/gods to move the sun, make the wind blow, and that demon's aren't the reason for diseases. That is PROGRESS. The fact that a human mind needs to understand all things, even those things beyond its current ability to research and comprehend, is the reason for gods and mythology. It is telling a fictional story to replace the natural truth . we seperate ourselves from most all other creatures in our world because of our brain and our ability to process thought and reason. if left alont and unfiltered, you would believe in god. Or possibly gods, or invisible spirits, or woodland fairies, or a host of other things that DO NOT EXIST. Just because it is human nature to do what I mentioned earlier, doesn't mean that it is proof of the supernatural.
you've missed my intentions. my intention is that yours and my science, our science, can only exist with the influence of a God.
you believe we are, because we are. poof. here we are.magic. the similarities between that and woodland fairies, invisible spirits are the same.
big bang might be factual but does that disprove god?
its ok to believe in a God. its perfectly sane and natural. I take offense and show angst towards those who say I cannot or should not because im stupid if I do.
yes. i did just say that. i believe it would be instinctual. did you just say your conscious was ignorant without any "outside influences"? Our civilization has moved past believing that it takes a god/gods to move the sun, make the wind blow, and that demon's aren't the reason for diseases. That is PROGRESS. The fact that a human mind needs to understand all things, even those things beyond its current ability to research and comprehend, is the reason for gods and mythology. It is telling a fictional story to replace the natural truth . we seperate ourselves from most all other creatures in our world because of our brain and our ability to process thought and reason. if left alont and unfiltered, you would believe in god. Or possibly gods, or invisible spirits, or woodland fairies, or a host of other things that DO NOT EXIST. Just because it is human nature to do what I mentioned earlier, doesn't mean that it is proof of the supernatural.
you've missed my intentions. my intention is that yours and my science, our science, can only exist with the influence of a God.
you believe we are, because we are. poof. here we are.magic. the similarities between that and woodland fairies, invisible spirits are the same.
big bang might be factual but does that disprove god?
its ok to believe in a God. its perfectly sane and natural. I take offense and show angst towards those who say I cannot or should not because im stupid if I do.
How do you prove that science only exists because God says so? Because a story says so? Another story says something different. A story I just made up says it's because of the Smurfs. Stick to the facts. We live in a material existence with naturally occurring laws (that we have named upon observance) that govern how matter interacts with other matter. Some people then attempt to attach anthropomorphic forms on these laws and theories and ask, "Who made the laws?" Let's not go that direction. That way lies madness for those of us who have had to deal with that blithering stupidity too often.
You say:" you believe we are, because we are. poof. here we are.magic. the similarities between that and woodland fairies, invisible spirits are the same."
Actually, I say, "I don't know how life first formed or where the matter came from to create the Big Bang." That's what I say. So, no... no poof. I'm okay with not filling in the blanks with 'God did it'. God did it is a short cut. A bypass. Some day we will either know how life first formed and where the matter came from, or we will not. In the meantime, I don't need, nor do I want, stories to explain it all. I'm curious, but I am patient. Science requires patience.
You say: big bang might be factual but does that disprove god?
Which god? The Christian God? He says He formed the sky, made light, the Earth, then the stars and sun (kind of redundant to make light, and THEN make the light source, eh?) If the Big Bang is true, how does that match up with Genesis? Or seven days, when we know it was billions of years?
But does it disprove god? No, it's not meant to. It is a scientific theory to explain the way in which our universe formed. Nothing more. It provides information where before we had a gap in our knowledge. The proof of god needs to come from those who believe in it. Just as the proof of a big bang comes from the scientists who first theorized it, studied it, and then present it to us by way of radiation research and so on. If you want people to believe in a god, just provide evidence. It's simple.
You say: its ok to believe in a God. its perfectly sane and natural. I take offense and show angst towards those who say I cannot or should not because im stupid if I do.
I think you don't need it. I think it is perfectly sane and natural NOT to believe in invisible fairytales. And, no one says you 'cannot'. You have the freedom to do what you will. Society even supports you and your beliefs. I do say you 'should not', because I believe that. I think you would be better off without it. The progression of Atheist thinking is a fun journey. At the end you come to the conclusion that all life is special, order is the key to happiness, and making your one life count is a worthwhile endeavor. Oh, and we have cookies. Come on over. I'll share.
i never read the bible. i dont care of anyones religion or choice of worship. i dont care if you believe or not.
the message of god is to be nice to each other. if we are not nice to each other, if someone is mean, science in all its greatness will greet the end of humanity without an emotion. science wont care. it is us that must.
Hi, yes I do believe in god and in fact i'm a MUSLIM. When people see this, i always get insulted because of it but I think that they don't truly know what Islam is about. Most people get their info from the news, from which Islam gets a lot of bashing because of terrorism. What most people don't bother to find out is that what these terrorists do is completely against Islam because they kill innocent people. Also I never read about people disproving Islam. It's usually Christianity that gets bashed. Well...I challenge some one to disprove Islam. I am strong in my faith because science has not been able to prove it wrong yet. Many scientists have become muslims after attempting to disprove it because they realise that they can't and it must be in fact the divine word from god. The Qur'an (Islamic holy book similar to the bible) has been proven by science for example: “Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse” “And the mountains as pegs?” [Al-Qur’an 78:6-7] Its has only been recently proved that mountains have deep roots shaped like pegs...how can a illiterate man know this?
Exactly, religion misunderstood is a problem...not the religion itself. You have to be pretty stupid to blame the fundamentals of a religion for terrorism or other events which take place on this Earth.
Of course Religion itself is a problem. It asks that you give your time (the only time you will ever have), your money, and your trust to something that is make-believe. In return, it gives, what?
I cannot reply with the fundamentals of religion but I can reply with the facts of Islam.
A false sense of security and control over your life? Prayer in place of medical treatment. Prayer in place of elevating yourself through actual effort. Prayer in the belief that it is an actual safety net (Native Americans used to pray over their animal-skin covered shields in the belief that it would stop a bullet -- worked well. For the guy with the gun). Prayer is a wonderful way to do nothing and /feel/ like you've done something. And millions of people participate in it on a daily basis. What a waste of time. And, what a waste of a thank you. Thank the people who actually provide for you, not some invisible sky-daddy. "God, I'd like to thank you for this meal... not the people who grew the food and then cooked it and the employer who pays me so that I could buy it, and on and on and on..."
If that was the case as every Muslim would pray instead of looking left and right before crossing a road. We have been given free will, prayer is just an addition so I have no idea what you are talking about. Why not thank God for a meal, for he is our creator....
It lets you do bad things and 'ask for forgiveness', and just FEEL way down deep in your so-called-soul that yeah, everything is just fine with the world now. Once you're right with God you don't need to be right with your victim, right? God forgives you! All is well. Happens all the time, and it is pathetic and dodgy.
Are you actually taking the p*** now? Have a Muslim explain you details of what the pain and torture one will receive on the day of reckoning and if they are sentenced to hell...How would one know God forgives them, does an angel fly down to the sky with a note of forgiveness?
When you believe in something invisible and supernatural, then you can believe in anything. It is nearly a requirement. Magic? Sure! Ghosts? Sure! Hurricanes that wipe out evil, sinful gays? Sure! Laying on hands? Sure! Donating money for God's blessing? Sure! God killed your cat because you masturbated? Sure!
So what do you believe the universe was created by nothing? we can trade endless insults here but that would just be childish.
It is divisive. Period. It is another barrier for humans to overcome as they try and come together. It becomes another Us vs Them thing. "THEY believe <ridiculous thing>, while WE believe <ridiculous thing>! How can we possibly get along with them?!?" We already have racism, money, politics, patriotism, and a host of other divisions. We do not need religion to add to that list.
So what...as i've said ever so often, why do we have the law? probably nothing wrong with adultery or murder is there? Oh wait the law actually has taken hints from religion itself mt friend...
Did I mention the waste of time? How many man-hours have been wasted by the members of all of the religions of world? Billions? Trillions? I realize we're all masters of wasting time, but don't you think some of that might have led to an advance or two?
I feel like i'm wasting my time right now...
But what about all the good things religion has done? They feed the poor! They provide shelter for the homeless! They provide voting stations!
Fine. Those are great things. Now name something that only religion can do. Feed the poor? Provide shelter for the homeless? Give us a place for voting machines? Yeah, we don't need religion for that.
Religion does nothing but add to problems. We are better than any religion. I look forward to the day it is completely gone.
Don't worry when that day comes the world will be in the state of complete corruption, have fun on that day...
- LC
We're all Geniuses. Most of us just don't know it.
Hi, yes I do believe in god and in fact i'm a MUSLIM. When people see this, i always get insulted because of it but I think that they don't truly know what Islam is about. Most people get their info from the news, from which Islam gets a lot of bashing because of terrorism. What most people don't bother to find out is that what these terrorists do is completely against Islam because they kill innocent people. Also I never read about people disproving Islam. It's usually Christianity that gets bashed. Well...I challenge some one to disprove Islam. I am strong in my faith because science has not been able to prove it wrong yet. Many scientists have become muslims after attempting to disprove it because they realise that they can't and it must be in fact the divine word from god. The Qur'an (Islamic holy book similar to the bible) has been proven by science for example: “Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse” “And the mountains as pegs?” [Al-Qur’an 78:6-7] Its has only been recently proved that mountains have deep roots shaped like pegs...how can a illiterate man know this?
Exactly, religion misunderstood is a problem...not the religion itself. You have to be pretty stupid to blame the fundamentals of a religion for terrorism or other events which take place on this Earth.
Of course Religion itself is a problem. It asks that you give your time (the only time you will ever have), your money, and your trust to something that is make-believe. In return, it gives, what?
I cannot reply with the fundamentals of religion but I can reply with the facts of Islam.
A false sense of security and control over your life? Prayer in place of medical treatment. Prayer in place of elevating yourself through actual effort. Prayer in the belief that it is an actual safety net (Native Americans used to pray over their animal-skin covered shields in the belief that it would stop a bullet -- worked well. For the guy with the gun). Prayer is a wonderful way to do nothing and /feel/ like you've done something. And millions of people participate in it on a daily basis. What a waste of time. And, what a waste of a thank you. Thank the people who actually provide for you, not some invisible sky-daddy. "God, I'd like to thank you for this meal... not the people who grew the food and then cooked it and the employer who pays me so that I could buy it, and on and on and on..."
If that was the case as every Muslim would pray instead of looking left and right before crossing a road. We have been given free will, prayer is just an addition so I have no idea what you are talking about. Why not thank God for a meal, for he is our creator....
It lets you do bad things and 'ask for forgiveness', and just FEEL way down deep in your so-called-soul that yeah, everything is just fine with the world now. Once you're right with God you don't need to be right with your victim, right? God forgives you! All is well. Happens all the time, and it is pathetic and dodgy.
Are you actually taking the p*** now? Have a Muslim explain you details of what the pain and torture one will receive on the day of reckoning and if they are sentenced to hell...How would one know God forgives them, does an angel fly down to the sky with a note of forgiveness?
When you believe in something invisible and supernatural, then you can believe in anything. It is nearly a requirement. Magic? Sure! Ghosts? Sure! Hurricanes that wipe out evil, sinful gays? Sure! Laying on hands? Sure! Donating money for God's blessing? Sure! God killed your cat because you masturbated? Sure!
So what do you believe the universe was created by nothing? we can trade endless insults here but that would just be childish.
It is divisive. Period. It is another barrier for humans to overcome as they try and come together. It becomes another Us vs Them thing. "THEY believe <ridiculous thing>, while WE believe <ridiculous thing>! How can we possibly get along with them?!?" We already have racism, money, politics, patriotism, and a host of other divisions. We do not need religion to add to that list.
So what...as i've said ever so often, why do we have the law? probably nothing wrong with adultery or murder is there? Oh wait the law actually has taken hints from religion itself mt friend...
Did I mention the waste of time? How many man-hours have been wasted by the members of all of the religions of world? Billions? Trillions? I realize we're all masters of wasting time, but don't you think some of that might have led to an advance or two?
I feel like i'm wasting my time right now...
But what about all the good things religion has done? They feed the poor! They provide shelter for the homeless! They provide voting stations!
Fine. Those are great things. Now name something that only religion can do. Feed the poor? Provide shelter for the homeless? Give us a place for voting machines? Yeah, we don't need religion for that.
Religion does nothing but add to problems. We are better than any religion. I look forward to the day it is completely gone.
Don't worry when that day comes the world will be in the state of complete corruption, have fun on that day...
- LC
The facts of Islam? What, that it is made up just like all of the rest? That it has significant problems like any other religion? Yeah, you're special.
You say: If that was the case as every Muslim would pray instead of looking left and right before crossing a road. We have been given free will, prayer is just an addition so I have no idea what you are talking about. Why not thank God for a meal, for he is our creator....
That is your example? Crossing the street? I say, people rely on prayer in place of medical treatment, and you give, 'crossing the street'? If you're not going to take this seriously, why try at all?
As to why thank god for a meal: BECAUSE THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GOD. However, there is such a thing as a cook, a butcher, a farmer, and the employer who paid you so could buy all those things. Thank that person(s).
I realize you are delusional about the whole 'creator' thing, but that's fine, there is a cure.
You say: Are you actually taking the p*** now? Have a Muslim explain you details of what the pain and torture one will receive on the day of reckoning and if they are sentenced to hell...How would one know God forgives them, does an angel fly down to the sky with a note of forgiveness?
I have no idea how an imaginary play friend forgives you. I simply know that people pray and act like they are forgiven. As for your imaginary torture place where really bad people go, yeah, imaginary. It is a fear tactic to push people into line with your beliefs. You should be worried though. Every other religion in the world says you'll be going to their version of Hell. So, you better start doing whatever magic dance they say in order to avoid all of them. Pfft.
You say: So what do you believe the universe was created by nothing? we can trade endless insults here but that would just be childish.
I DON'T KNOW. Read what i've written. I'm not going around making up stories to try and explain it. I am fine with not knowing. You make up some imaginary god and pretend like that is the answer. Delusional.
You say: So what...as i've said ever so often, why do we have the law? probably nothing wrong with adultery or murder is there? Oh wait the law actually has taken hints from religion itself mt friend...
Of course there is something wrong with murder. Are you sick in the head? As to adultery, don't Muslims believe in killing people over that? Hmmm.... sick in the head religion. As to the law: religion was born from the imagination of people. The law comes from the same place. Funny how they share the same origin...
As to the rest of what you have said, it is meaningless gibberish. Religion is a Bad Thing[tm], whether it is Christianity, Islam, or whatever made up thing you want to believe in.
I DON'T KNOW. Read what i've written. I'm not going around making up stories to try and explain it. I am fine with not knowing. You make up some imaginary god and pretend like that is the answer. Delusional. You say: So what...as i've said ever so often, why do we have the law? probably nothing wrong with adultery or murder is there? Oh wait the law actually has taken hints from religion itself mt friend... Of course there is something wrong with murder. Are you sick in the head? As to adultery, don't Muslims believe in killing people over that? Hmmm.... sick in the head religion. As to the law: religion was born from the imagination of people. The law comes from the same place. Funny how they share the same origin...
As to the rest of what you have said, it is meaningless gibberish. Religion is a Bad Thing[tm], whether it is Christianity, Islam, or whatever made up thing you want to believe in. - LC
Uhm, yea you don't know so don't CARE then. Stop bashing other people way of lives just because you can...its pathetic. Go Saudi Arabia, it's a f-ing third world country yet you'll see how low the crime rate is! The Islamic laws are strict but when the Muslims pay proper attention to the fundamentalism of our religion...does it go wrong no. You are ignorant and know nothing about religion in the concept of itself. But we can go on about this forever so I have one question for you...
What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
We're all Geniuses. Most of us just don't know it.
Wow, it's funny how everyone seems to believe Osama bin ladein was behind the 9/11 attacks so easily with hardly any evidence but when it comes to God..."where's the evidence? "
You do realize there is much more evidence for Osama bin laden's involvement in 9/11 then the existance of a deity, right?
in fact, you used a really, REALLY poor comparisson.
Do you know that there were actually 11 people suspected with the 9/11 attacks? Do you know that Bin Ladein has not been involved before 9/11 with a terrorist attack against innocent civilians? If there is more existence than what we know why did they produce a dubbed tape of Osama bin ladein saying he was behind 9/11? The more people look into 9/11 the more dubious one becomes, poor comparison...my ass.
There is plenty of reason to believe Osama Bin laden was involved with 9-11. There is not a SHRED of evidence for the existance of a deity, and that's why your comparison is bad.
So, they still used a dubbed tape. It means the evidence was no where near good enough to point the finger, end of story.
the issue is that you're trying to compare something with evidence and where the culprit has actually confirmed to be involved to something that has zero evidence, therefore your comparisson was wrong there, NOW it's end of story
Listen mate there's just as much evidence that 9/11 was conspired, Michael Moor made a friggin documentary about it. All you need to do is google it, we can send each other links all day supporting the event just like this topic itself, hence it was a good comparison. You are just like the other people who suddenly have a facial expression like this when you realise the government can actually NOT be telling the truth, American government is probably the most infamous with the Area 51 and War in Iraq fiasco which still makes me laugh to this day.
You really don't get it do you? It was an invalid comparisson becausethere is no evidence for the existance of a god!, and now you want to bring in conspiracies into this thread? Just how much of your credibility do you want to lose?
I DON'T KNOW. Read what i've written. I'm not going around making up stories to try and explain it. I am fine with not knowing. You make up some imaginary god and pretend like that is the answer. Delusional. You say: So what...as i've said ever so often, why do we have the law? probably nothing wrong with adultery or murder is there? Oh wait the law actually has taken hints from religion itself mt friend... Of course there is something wrong with murder. Are you sick in the head? As to adultery, don't Muslims believe in killing people over that? Hmmm.... sick in the head religion. As to the law: religion was born from the imagination of people. The law comes from the same place. Funny how they share the same origin...
As to the rest of what you have said, it is meaningless gibberish. Religion is a Bad Thing[tm], whether it is Christianity, Islam, or whatever made up thing you want to believe in. - LC
Uhm, yea you don't know so don't CARE then. Stop bashing other people way of lives just because you can...its pathetic. Go Saudi Arabia, it's a f-ing third world country yet you'll see how low the crime rate is! The Islamic laws are strict but when the Muslims pay proper attention to the fundamentalism of our religion...does it go wrong no. You are ignorant and know nothing about religion in the concept of itself. But we can go on about this forever so I have one question for you...
What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
To answer your question: The idea that an ancient book written by scared old men in the desert holds scientific knowledge is laughable. It is the same thing as trying to say that Nostradamus is actually foretelling the future. Here is the formula: One part vague passage + common event every decade = prophecy being foretold. It is that simple. Give us an example. Just one. I'll bet it fits into that formula very nicely. You said it yourself, it 'hints' at it. Trust me, Bible freaks try to pull the same thing, but it would be abundantly clear to you when they try it... the only difference is, you have Islamic blinders on instead of Christobrandblinders[tm]. Of course, just once I would like to see this scientific information brought forth from a religious text and used before science has to do all the leg work and actually create it. Yeah, hinting at knowledge. REAL HELPFUL. pfft.
As to Saudi Arabia, it has a barbaric system of punishment. If you're seriously proud of it, good for you. Chopping off heads and right hands is a symptom of stupendous idiocy. If that has lowered crime, which apparently it has, I say it has come at an even higher cost. Of course, Saudi Arabia is the same place where women aren't allowed to drive, alcohol is forbidden, and other ridiculousness. And let's not forget: Being gay or adultery is an offense worthy of death. Please, keep your low crime rate and I'll keep my freedom. The only thing making Saudi Arabia relevant at all is its oil supply. Lose that and you've got a dried up patch of sand with a lot of people hating others for having it better.
Islam, and every other religion, was created by pure imagination. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it is absolutely true. Every good that it has produced can be reproduced without religion. I know, because I've seen, and done, a lot of good. Of course, you support killing people for adultery, so what do you know of good? Barbaric.
I DON'T KNOW. Read what i've written. I'm not going around making up stories to try and explain it. I am fine with not knowing. You make up some imaginary god and pretend like that is the answer. Delusional. You say: So what...as i've said ever so often, why do we have the law? probably nothing wrong with adultery or murder is there? Oh wait the law actually has taken hints from religion itself mt friend... Of course there is something wrong with murder. Are you sick in the head? As to adultery, don't Muslims believe in killing people over that? Hmmm.... sick in the head religion. As to the law: religion was born from the imagination of people. The law comes from the same place. Funny how they share the same origin...
As to the rest of what you have said, it is meaningless gibberish. Religion is a Bad Thing[tm], whether it is Christianity, Islam, or whatever made up thing you want to believe in. - LC
Uhm, yea you don't know so don't CARE then. Stop bashing other people way of lives just because you can...its pathetic. Go Saudi Arabia, it's a f-ing third world country yet you'll see how low the crime rate is! The Islamic laws are strict but when the Muslims pay proper attention to the fundamentalism of our religion...does it go wrong no. You are ignorant and know nothing about religion in the concept of itself. But we can go on about this forever so I have one question for you...
What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
To answer your question: The idea that an ancient book written by scared old men in the desert holds scientific knowledge is laughable. It is the same thing as trying to say that Nostradamus is actually foretelling the future. Here is the formula: One part vague passage + common event every decade = prophecy being foretold. It is that simple. Give us an example. Just one. I'll bet it fits into that formula very nicely. You said it yourself, it 'hints' at it. Trust me, Bible freaks try to pull the same thing, but it would be abundantly clear to you when they try it... the only difference is, you have Islamic blinders on instead of Christobrandblinders[tm]. Of course, just once I would like to see this scientific information brought forth from a religious text and used before science has to do all the leg work and actually create it. Yeah, hinting at knowledge. REAL HELPFUL. pfft.
As to Saudi Arabia, it has a barbaric system of punishment. If you're seriously proud of it, good for you. Chopping off heads and right hands is a symptom of stupendous idiocy. If that has lowered crime, which apparently it has, I say it has come at an even higher cost. Of course, Saudi Arabia is the same place where women aren't allowed to drive, alcohol is forbidden, and other ridiculousness. And let's not forget: Being gay or adultery is an offense worthy of death. Please, keep your low crime rate and I'll keep my freedom. The only thing making Saudi Arabia relevant at all is its oil supply. Lose that and you've got a dried up patch of sand with a lot of people hating others for having it better.
Islam, and every other religion, was created by pure imagination. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it is absolutely true. Every good that it has produced can be reproduced without religion. I know, because I've seen, and done, a lot of good. Of course, you support killing people for adultery, so what do you know of good? Barbaric.
There you go, have fun, mix and match your own will. Islamic Law has to be altered to match the modern society, I was on about the principles. You decided to add your nice little social aspect which I had to respond to. Remember I was taling about fundamentalism which has no implication of any of this, alcohol cause so much more problems than good so don't even dare bring that up. Women have equal right to men, that is a clear fundamental, it doesn't matter what the Muslims do, you can't blame the religion, I am enjoying this debate but its not nice to be so damn harsh! I suppose I haven't either been nice....
Gameloading...you have a point but nevertheless, I don't give a damn, I still find how the events happened ridiculous and how easily Alqaeda had fingers pointed at them (no I am not a supporter of them), the American government is infamous as i've said, you want evidence? click on that link and have fun aswell.
We're all Geniuses. Most of us just don't know it.
I DON'T KNOW. Read what i've written. I'm not going around making up stories to try and explain it. I am fine with not knowing. You make up some imaginary god and pretend like that is the answer. Delusional. You say: So what...as i've said ever so often, why do we have the law? probably nothing wrong with adultery or murder is there? Oh wait the law actually has taken hints from religion itself mt friend... Of course there is something wrong with murder. Are you sick in the head? As to adultery, don't Muslims believe in killing people over that? Hmmm.... sick in the head religion. As to the law: religion was born from the imagination of people. The law comes from the same place. Funny how they share the same origin...
As to the rest of what you have said, it is meaningless gibberish. Religion is a Bad Thing[tm], whether it is Christianity, Islam, or whatever made up thing you want to believe in. - LC
Uhm, yea you don't know so don't CARE then. Stop bashing other people way of lives just because you can...its pathetic. Go Saudi Arabia, it's a f-ing third world country yet you'll see how low the crime rate is! The Islamic laws are strict but when the Muslims pay proper attention to the fundamentalism of our religion...does it go wrong no. You are ignorant and know nothing about religion in the concept of itself. But we can go on about this forever so I have one question for you...
What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
To answer your question: The idea that an ancient book written by scared old men in the desert holds scientific knowledge is laughable. It is the same thing as trying to say that Nostradamus is actually foretelling the future. Here is the formula: One part vague passage + common event every decade = prophecy being foretold. It is that simple. Give us an example. Just one. I'll bet it fits into that formula very nicely. You said it yourself, it 'hints' at it. Trust me, Bible freaks try to pull the same thing, but it would be abundantly clear to you when they try it... the only difference is, you have Islamic blinders on instead of Christobrandblinders[tm]. Of course, just once I would like to see this scientific information brought forth from a religious text and used before science has to do all the leg work and actually create it. Yeah, hinting at knowledge. REAL HELPFUL. pfft.
As to Saudi Arabia, it has a barbaric system of punishment. If you're seriously proud of it, good for you. Chopping off heads and right hands is a symptom of stupendous idiocy. If that has lowered crime, which apparently it has, I say it has come at an even higher cost. Of course, Saudi Arabia is the same place where women aren't allowed to drive, alcohol is forbidden, and other ridiculousness. And let's not forget: Being gay or adultery is an offense worthy of death. Please, keep your low crime rate and I'll keep my freedom. The only thing making Saudi Arabia relevant at all is its oil supply. Lose that and you've got a dried up patch of sand with a lot of people hating others for having it better.
Islam, and every other religion, was created by pure imagination. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it is absolutely true. Every good that it has produced can be reproduced without religion. I know, because I've seen, and done, a lot of good. Of course, you support killing people for adultery, so what do you know of good? Barbaric.
There you go, have fun, mix and match your own will. Islamic Law has to be altered to match the modern society, I was on about the principles. You decided to add your nice little social aspect which I had to respond to. Remember I was taling about fundamentalism which has no implication of any of this, alcohol cause so much more problems than good so don't even dare bring that up. Women have equal right to men, that is a clear fundamental, it doesn't matter what the Muslims do, you can't blame the religion, I am enjoying this debate but its not nice to be so damn harsh! I suppose I haven't either been nice....
Gameloading...you have a point but nevertheless, I don't give a damn, I still find how the events happened ridiculous and how easily Alqaeda had fingers pointed at them (no I am not a supporter of them), the American government is infamous as i've said, you want evidence? click on that link and have fun aswell.
Most people can easily determine there is a God through the number or miraculous occurrences. Most atheist/agnostic believe there is a logical explanation for these phenomena, but there is TOO much phenomena for all to be coincidence. They also refuse to examine any phenomena that has to do with supernatural because they've already got their minds made up.
The NDE is my favorite God phenomena because 2 close members of my family went through the experience. And the change in them was like somthing unreal had happened.
Religion has warped the image of God around and this is why we have people that claim he doesnt exist.
I DON'T KNOW. Read what i've written. I'm not going around making up stories to try and explain it. I am fine with not knowing. You make up some imaginary god and pretend like that is the answer. Delusional. You say: So what...as i've said ever so often, why do we have the law? probably nothing wrong with adultery or murder is there? Oh wait the law actually has taken hints from religion itself mt friend... Of course there is something wrong with murder. Are you sick in the head? As to adultery, don't Muslims believe in killing people over that? Hmmm.... sick in the head religion. As to the law: religion was born from the imagination of people. The law comes from the same place. Funny how they share the same origin...
As to the rest of what you have said, it is meaningless gibberish. Religion is a Bad Thing[tm], whether it is Christianity, Islam, or whatever made up thing you want to believe in. - LC
Uhm, yea you don't know so don't CARE then. Stop bashing other people way of lives just because you can...its pathetic. Go Saudi Arabia, it's a f-ing third world country yet you'll see how low the crime rate is! The Islamic laws are strict but when the Muslims pay proper attention to the fundamentalism of our religion...does it go wrong no. You are ignorant and know nothing about religion in the concept of itself. But we can go on about this forever so I have one question for you...
What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
To answer your question: The idea that an ancient book written by scared old men in the desert holds scientific knowledge is laughable. It is the same thing as trying to say that Nostradamus is actually foretelling the future. Here is the formula: One part vague passage + common event every decade = prophecy being foretold. It is that simple. Give us an example. Just one. I'll bet it fits into that formula very nicely. You said it yourself, it 'hints' at it. Trust me, Bible freaks try to pull the same thing, but it would be abundantly clear to you when they try it... the only difference is, you have Islamic blinders on instead of Christobrandblinders[tm]. Of course, just once I would like to see this scientific information brought forth from a religious text and used before science has to do all the leg work and actually create it. Yeah, hinting at knowledge. REAL HELPFUL. pfft.
As to Saudi Arabia, it has a barbaric system of punishment. If you're seriously proud of it, good for you. Chopping off heads and right hands is a symptom of stupendous idiocy. If that has lowered crime, which apparently it has, I say it has come at an even higher cost. Of course, Saudi Arabia is the same place where women aren't allowed to drive, alcohol is forbidden, and other ridiculousness. And let's not forget: Being gay or adultery is an offense worthy of death. Please, keep your low crime rate and I'll keep my freedom. The only thing making Saudi Arabia relevant at all is its oil supply. Lose that and you've got a dried up patch of sand with a lot of people hating others for having it better.
Islam, and every other religion, was created by pure imagination. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it is absolutely true. Every good that it has produced can be reproduced without religion. I know, because I've seen, and done, a lot of good. Of course, you support killing people for adultery, so what do you know of good? Barbaric.
There you go, have fun, mix and match your own will. Islamic Law has to be altered to match the modern society, I was on about the principles. You decided to add your nice little social aspect which I had to respond to. Remember I was taling about fundamentalism which has no implication of any of this, alcohol cause so much more problems than good so don't even dare bring that up. Women have equal right to men, that is a clear fundamental, it doesn't matter what the Muslims do, you can't blame the religion, I am enjoying this debate but its not nice to be so damn harsh! I suppose I haven't either been nice....
Gameloading...you have a point but nevertheless, I don't give a damn, I still find how the events happened ridiculous and how easily Alqaeda had fingers pointed at them (no I am not a supporter of them), the American government is infamous as i've said, you want evidence? click on that link and have fun aswell.
Most people can easily determine there is a God through the number or miraculous occurrences. Most atheist/agnostic believe there is a logical explanation for these phenomena, but there is TOO much phenomena for all to be coincidence. They also refuse to examine any phenomena that has to do with supernatural because they've already got their minds made up.
The NDE is my favorite God phenomena because 2 close members of my family went through the experience. And the change in them was like somthing unreal had happened.
Religion has warped the image of God around and this is why we have people that claim he doesnt exist.
Near Death Experiences don't hold a lot of weight with me. No one knows what your mind actually goes through when you're in the dying process, perhaps you start reliving old memories or your have random images flash through your mind....or maybe you just see what you've been told to see your whole life. People claim god doesn't exist because he doesn't.
Wow... I don't think I have seen a longer conversation in any of the forums but honestly I don't believe in God either. He (or she) is just a big hoax people like to believe because it makes them feel better to imagine some greater being taking care of their problems and for hope of life after death when obviously when you die you die. There is no God. Deal with it.
There you go, have fun, mix and match your own will. Islamic Law has to be altered to match the modern society, I was on about the principles. You decided to add your nice little social aspect which I had to respond to. Remember I was taling about fundamentalism which has no implication of any of this, alcohol cause so much more problems than good so don't even dare bring that up. Women have equal right to men, that is a clear fundamental, it doesn't matter what the Muslims do, you can't blame the religion, I am enjoying this debate but its not nice to be so damn harsh! I suppose I haven't either been nice.... Gameloading...you have a point but nevertheless, I don't give a damn, I still find how the events happened ridiculous and how easily Alqaeda had fingers pointed at them (no I am not a supporter of them), the American government is infamous as i've said, you want evidence? click on that link and have fun aswell.
Why would Islamic Law have to change? If God set down the laws, then why would they become outdated? I can tell you, but you won't like the answer. So, I'll tell you anyway. You killed God. You and everyone before you put a knife in his chest and then you created a new God to replace Him. Don't be alarmed, the Christians did the same thing. Hey, they even recorded it! The Old Testament God was too harsh, unbending, and oh yeah, didn't like Non-Jews. So, what did Paul do? He killed God. Dead. And he made a new one that was nicer. Liked non-Jews. And yeah, he even placed the blame on the Jews for killing of the Christ. I don't blame him for wanting to change things. Who could tolerate all of those old laws? Society had changed too much to hang on to such outdated ideas, right? It's too bad they didn't hang on to the body of the dead God, would have made great evidence, right? Or wait, we're talking metaphorically, aren't we? Metaphor. That's something you imagine, right? So, how do you feel about killing your God? There are those who haven't killed Him off, but those people are barbaric and cruel, right? Yup.
As to your website... Let's take the very first point they make as an example:
After that He smoothed out the earth. (Qur'an, 79:30)
Which, basically, the sites author is attempting to say means that the Earth is roundish. Geoid shape, as they put it. What then happens is a bit of translational gymnastics. You then find out that the word 'daha' is used, which supposedly comes from the word 'dahv'. Now, you then ignore the word daha, apparently, and find out that the word dahv means... oh heck, let's just paste up what the site says:
It, translated as "smoothed out," comes from the word "dahv," meaning "to spread." Although the word "dahv" also means to cover or to set out, the meaning of the verb is more than just a prosaic setting out, since it describes setting out in a circle.
The concept of roundness is also present in other words derived from "dahv." For example, the word "dahv" also refers to children dropping a ball into a hole in the ground, games involving throwing stones into holes and games played with walnuts. Words derived from that root are also used for an ostrich making a nest, cleaning stones from where it is about to lie down, the place where it lays its eggs and the egg itself.
So, if you do some nice acrobatics and turn your head just right, a bit more to the left, there you go, then you can see that this obviously means that the earth is roundish and... err. yeah... Right. Obviously, this relies on words being so flexible that they can become anything you want them to. I think the translation of daha means turtle... you know, because the shell can be roundish. So, obviously the earth is on the back of a turtle. Or, the Earth is flat, because it was smoothed out... ever try to smooth something out on something round? There is a lot of sand in the Middle East, and we all know sand on a ball just slides right off, so it would have to be smoothed out on something flat. Poof! The Earth is flat, just like the Qur'an says. It can mean ANTHING.
Other points that the Qur'an makes is that mountains move like clouds... which isn't even remotely true. See here: You see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds. (Qur'an, 27:88)
Unless you found clouds that take millions of years to move a significant distance. Pfft. Again, just making a statement into whatever you want it to mean. You could just as easily say that the Qur'an guessed that all matter is made up of a large amount of space at the molecular level, and therefore 'you reckoned to be solid' is referring to that. It means whatever you want it to. It's just that simple.
A last example of the ridiculousness of vague passages and attempting to shove them into meaningful holes: … Not even an atom's weight eludes your Lord, either on earth or in heaven. Nor is there anything smaller than that, or larger, which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur'an, 10:61)
Isn't that exciting? Allah knew ahead of time that there was something smaller than an atom. Cool, right? Well, until you find out that modern translations seem to think atom means 'a small ant'. Oh, crap. Well, of course there are things smaller than a small ant. Oh well, sounds better if we go with atom instead of ant. Again, mistranslate until you get the definition you want in English.
The fact of the matter is, the Qur'an is so vague and convoluted, then add on top of it a translation into another language, that it can mean anything you want it to. I could literally find proof for ANYTHING in the Qur'an. Not because it is omniscient, but because it is just that bad. Metaphors are not science. Science finding the truth and then looking for some way to predict it in your holy book is pretty lame. Yeah. Lame.
I repeat. Your holy book, the Qur'an, is made up by ordinary men with no divine revelation at all. It is fiction. It is false. Living your life by it is the same as someone else living theirs by a comic book.
All holy books work like this, however. Not just your own. The Bible is so vague and crusted in metaphor that it can mean anything as well. It's just as false.
- LC
p.s. If I'm harsh, it's because I am passionate about the harm that religion does to this world and the people on it.
I DON'T KNOW. Read what i've written. I'm not going around making up stories to try and explain it. I am fine with not knowing. You make up some imaginary god and pretend like that is the answer. Delusional. You say: So what...as i've said ever so often, why do we have the law? probably nothing wrong with adultery or murder is there? Oh wait the law actually has taken hints from religion itself mt friend... Of course there is something wrong with murder. Are you sick in the head? As to adultery, don't Muslims believe in killing people over that? Hmmm.... sick in the head religion. As to the law: religion was born from the imagination of people. The law comes from the same place. Funny how they share the same origin...
As to the rest of what you have said, it is meaningless gibberish. Religion is a Bad Thing[tm], whether it is Christianity, Islam, or whatever made up thing you want to believe in. - LC
Uhm, yea you don't know so don't CARE then. Stop bashing other people way of lives just because you can...its pathetic. Go Saudi Arabia, it's a f-ing third world country yet you'll see how low the crime rate is! The Islamic laws are strict but when the Muslims pay proper attention to the fundamentalism of our religion...does it go wrong no. You are ignorant and know nothing about religion in the concept of itself. But we can go on about this forever so I have one question for you...
What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
To answer your question: The idea that an ancient book written by scared old men in the desert holds scientific knowledge is laughable. It is the same thing as trying to say that Nostradamus is actually foretelling the future. Here is the formula: One part vague passage + common event every decade = prophecy being foretold. It is that simple. Give us an example. Just one. I'll bet it fits into that formula very nicely. You said it yourself, it 'hints' at it. Trust me, Bible freaks try to pull the same thing, but it would be abundantly clear to you when they try it... the only difference is, you have Islamic blinders on instead of Christobrandblinders[tm]. Of course, just once I would like to see this scientific information brought forth from a religious text and used before science has to do all the leg work and actually create it. Yeah, hinting at knowledge. REAL HELPFUL. pfft.
As to Saudi Arabia, it has a barbaric system of punishment. If you're seriously proud of it, good for you. Chopping off heads and right hands is a symptom of stupendous idiocy. If that has lowered crime, which apparently it has, I say it has come at an even higher cost. Of course, Saudi Arabia is the same place where women aren't allowed to drive, alcohol is forbidden, and other ridiculousness. And let's not forget: Being gay or adultery is an offense worthy of death. Please, keep your low crime rate and I'll keep my freedom. The only thing making Saudi Arabia relevant at all is its oil supply. Lose that and you've got a dried up patch of sand with a lot of people hating others for having it better.
Islam, and every other religion, was created by pure imagination. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it is absolutely true. Every good that it has produced can be reproduced without religion. I know, because I've seen, and done, a lot of good. Of course, you support killing people for adultery, so what do you know of good? Barbaric.
There you go, have fun, mix and match your own will. Islamic Law has to be altered to match the modern society, I was on about the principles. You decided to add your nice little social aspect which I had to respond to. Remember I was taling about fundamentalism which has no implication of any of this, alcohol cause so much more problems than good so don't even dare bring that up. Women have equal right to men, that is a clear fundamental, it doesn't matter what the Muslims do, you can't blame the religion, I am enjoying this debate but its not nice to be so damn harsh! I suppose I haven't either been nice....
Gameloading...you have a point but nevertheless, I don't give a damn, I still find how the events happened ridiculous and how easily Alqaeda had fingers pointed at them (no I am not a supporter of them), the American government is infamous as i've said, you want evidence? click on that link and have fun aswell.
Most people can easily determine there is a God through the number or miraculous occurrences. Most atheist/agnostic believe there is a logical explanation for these phenomena, but there is TOO much phenomena for all to be coincidence. They also refuse to examine any phenomena that has to do with supernatural because they've already got their minds made up.
The NDE is my favorite God phenomena because 2 close members of my family went through the experience. And the change in them was like somthing unreal had happened.
Religion has warped the image of God around and this is why we have people that claim he doesnt exist.
People are gullible. They want to believe. They want to see miracles. And, they want to be the person who sees a miracle. They will lie about it in order to be the center of attention. Groups of people will do the same thing. Even the Catholic church only acknowledges a handful of true miracles. They throw out thousands upon thousands of others. The handful? A load of bull as well.
As to TOO MUCH PHENOMENA... I've seen none of it. There isn't a single event in my life that is unexplainable. Isn't it funny how so many strange things happen in third world countries and poverty stricken areas? You know, places with no cameras or much education. Anything that is 'supernatural' withers when put under the light. There is only the natural. There is nothing Supernatural.
I haven't read the Qu'ran at all. I'm a Christian. However, I believe that a spiritual being appeared to Mohammed and gave it to him. They say it was Gabriel. I say it was a demon, but nonetheless, I believe that it was supernatural gnostic revelation (the literal term).
These types of topics usually don't go anywhere. I've been in too many of these conversations to know that. Yet, man, why do I keep coming back? Haha! I just love talking about it.
I haven't read the Qu'ran at all. I'm a Christian. However, I believe that a spiritual being appeared to Mohammed and gave it to him. They say it was Gabriel. I say it was a demon, but nonetheless, I believe that it was supernatural gnostic revelation (the literal term). These types of topics usually don't go anywhere. I've been in too many of these conversations to know that. Yet, man, why do I keep coming back? Haha! I just love talking about it. Blessings,
There you go, have fun, mix and match your own will. Islamic Law has to be altered to match the modern society, I was on about the principles. You decided to add your nice little social aspect which I had to respond to. Remember I was taling about fundamentalism which has no implication of any of this, alcohol cause so much more problems than good so don't even dare bring that up. Women have equal right to men, that is a clear fundamental, it doesn't matter what the Muslims do, you can't blame the religion, I am enjoying this debate but its not nice to be so damn harsh! I suppose I haven't either been nice.... Gameloading...you have a point but nevertheless, I don't give a damn, I still find how the events happened ridiculous and how easily Alqaeda had fingers pointed at them (no I am not a supporter of them), the American government is infamous as i've said, you want evidence? click on that link and have fun aswell.
Why would Islamic Law have to change? If God set down the laws, then why would they become outdated? I can tell you, but you won't like the answer. So, I'll tell you anyway. You killed God. You and everyone before you put a knife in his chest and then you created a new God to replace Him. Don't be alarmed, the Christians did the same thing. Hey, they even recorded it! The Old Testament God was too harsh, unbending, and oh yeah, didn't like Non-Jews. So, what did Paul do? He killed God. Dead. And he made a new one that was nicer. Liked non-Jews. And yeah, he even placed the blame on the Jews for killing of the Christ. I don't blame him for wanting to change things. Who could tolerate all of those old laws? Society had changed too much to hang on to such outdated ideas, right? It's too bad they didn't hang on to the body of the dead God, would have made great evidence, right? Or wait, we're talking metaphorically, aren't we? Metaphor. That's something you imagine, right? So, how do you feel about killing your God? There are those who haven't killed Him off, but those people are barbaric and cruel, right? Yup.
As to your website... Let's take the very first point they make as an example:
After that He smoothed out the earth. (Qur'an, 79:30)
Which, basically, the sites author is attempting to say means that the Earth is roundish. Geoid shape, as they put it. What then happens is a bit of translational gymnastics. You then find out that the word 'daha' is used, which supposedly comes from the word 'dahv'. Now, you then ignore the word daha, apparently, and find out that the word dahv means... oh heck, let's just paste up what the site says:
It, translated as "smoothed out," comes from the word "dahv," meaning "to spread." Although the word "dahv" also means to cover or to set out, the meaning of the verb is more than just a prosaic setting out, since it describes setting out in a circle.
The concept of roundness is also present in other words derived from "dahv." For example, the word "dahv" also refers to children dropping a ball into a hole in the ground, games involving throwing stones into holes and games played with walnuts. Words derived from that root are also used for an ostrich making a nest, cleaning stones from where it is about to lie down, the place where it lays its eggs and the egg itself.
So, if you do some nice acrobatics and turn your head just right, a bit more to the left, there you go, then you can see that this obviously means that the earth is roundish and... err. yeah... Right. Obviously, this relies on words being so flexible that they can become anything you want them to. I think the translation of daha means turtle... you know, because the shell can be roundish. So, obviously the earth is on the back of a turtle. Or, the Earth is flat, because it was smoothed out... ever try to smooth something out on something round? There is a lot of sand in the Middle East, and we all know sand on a ball just slides right off, so it would have to be smoothed out on something flat. Poof! The Earth is flat, just like the Qur'an says. It can mean ANTHING.
Other points that the Qur'an makes is that mountains move like clouds... which isn't even remotely true. See here: You see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds. (Qur'an, 27:88)
Unless you found clouds that take millions of years to move a significant distance. Pfft. Again, just making a statement into whatever you want it to mean. You could just as easily say that the Qur'an guessed that all matter is made up of a large amount of space at the molecular level, and therefore 'you reckoned to be solid' is referring to that. It means whatever you want it to. It's just that simple.
A last example of the ridiculousness of vague passages and attempting to shove them into meaningful holes: … Not even an atom's weight eludes your Lord, either on earth or in heaven. Nor is there anything smaller than that, or larger, which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur'an, 10:61)
Isn't that exciting? Allah knew ahead of time that there was something smaller than an atom. Cool, right? Well, until you find out that modern translations seem to think atom means 'a small ant'. Oh, crap. Well, of course there are things smaller than a small ant. Oh well, sounds better if we go with atom instead of ant. Again, mistranslate until you get the definition you want in English.
The fact of the matter is, the Qur'an is so vague and convoluted, then add on top of it a translation into another language, that it can mean anything you want it to. I could literally find proof for ANYTHING in the Qur'an. Not because it is omniscient, but because it is just that bad. Metaphors are not science. Science finding the truth and then looking for some way to predict it in your holy book is pretty lame. Yeah. Lame.
I repeat. Your holy book, the Qur'an, is made up by ordinary men with no divine revelation at all. It is fiction. It is false. Living your life by it is the same as someone else living theirs by a comic book.
All holy books work like this, however. Not just your own. The Bible is so vague and crusted in metaphor that it can mean anything as well. It's just as false.
- LC
p.s. If I'm harsh, it's because I am passionate about the harm that religion does to this world and the people on it.
Now you're starting to sound like an anarchist, the Qur'aan I admit isn't as simple as 'the hungry caterpillar." Look at what you're saying, "Why would Islamic law change?" Forgive me for saying but are you retarded? Is the world exactly how it was a thousand year ago? We have Media, Technology, Medical technology, these all have to be discussed within pious Muslims and then added to the (Shariah)Islamic law. Simple example. Narcotics..they intoxicate a person. They didn't have drugs back then did they? But drugs are contained within medicine which has been decided ok because medicine is used to help a person in need rather one just wanting to get stoned.
Listen...do you possess a degree in Medicine? Scientists who spend their entire lives studying astronomy, DNA, physics have COMPLEMENTED the Qur'aan. I could read teh Qur'aan in Arabic but I wouldnt have a clue what it says nevertheless, the Qur'aan has been translated. Look at you, you keep going far from the original statement I said and I have to keep responding to you. You have picked our the half and half "miracles of the Qur'aan" well done...Why don't you pick out one which we as averages joes can understand!
there you go, obviously all forms of meat can cause problems such as salmonella but pork by far is infamous for that matter and bacon is even worse. Such as quote which relate to physics I can a make pathetic judgement however it would be sad like what you've put. You need a high level of knowledge of the particular study to undermine it...You think those discoveries were made by anyone? Besides you keep forgetting how much knowledge people so long ago lacked.
p.s. If I'm harsh, it's because I am passionate about the harm that religion does to this world and the people on it.
Gratz, now go walk around telling every person who follows a religion that they're stupid, it'll help. Humane morals are respect towards ones believes. E.g. No offense to Hindus but I find the concept of bathing in the river Ganges not right. But I dont go round saying to their faces do I? You're passionate but just deluded.
We're all Geniuses. Most of us just don't know it.
I DON'T KNOW. Read what i've written. I'm not going around making up stories to try and explain it. I am fine with not knowing. You make up some imaginary god and pretend like that is the answer. Delusional. You say: So what...as i've said ever so often, why do we have the law? probably nothing wrong with adultery or murder is there? Oh wait the law actually has taken hints from religion itself mt friend... Of course there is something wrong with murder. Are you sick in the head? As to adultery, don't Muslims believe in killing people over that? Hmmm.... sick in the head religion. As to the law: religion was born from the imagination of people. The law comes from the same place. Funny how they share the same origin...
As to the rest of what you have said, it is meaningless gibberish. Religion is a Bad Thing[tm], whether it is Christianity, Islam, or whatever made up thing you want to believe in. - LC
Uhm, yea you don't know so don't CARE then. Stop bashing other people way of lives just because you can...its pathetic. Go Saudi Arabia, it's a f-ing third world country yet you'll see how low the crime rate is! The Islamic laws are strict but when the Muslims pay proper attention to the fundamentalism of our religion...does it go wrong no. You are ignorant and know nothing about religion in the concept of itself. But we can go on about this forever so I have one question for you...
What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
To answer your question: The idea that an ancient book written by scared old men in the desert holds scientific knowledge is laughable. It is the same thing as trying to say that Nostradamus is actually foretelling the future. Here is the formula: One part vague passage + common event every decade = prophecy being foretold. It is that simple. Give us an example. Just one. I'll bet it fits into that formula very nicely. You said it yourself, it 'hints' at it. Trust me, Bible freaks try to pull the same thing, but it would be abundantly clear to you when they try it... the only difference is, you have Islamic blinders on instead of Christobrandblinders[tm]. Of course, just once I would like to see this scientific information brought forth from a religious text and used before science has to do all the leg work and actually create it. Yeah, hinting at knowledge. REAL HELPFUL. pfft.
As to Saudi Arabia, it has a barbaric system of punishment. If you're seriously proud of it, good for you. Chopping off heads and right hands is a symptom of stupendous idiocy. If that has lowered crime, which apparently it has, I say it has come at an even higher cost. Of course, Saudi Arabia is the same place where women aren't allowed to drive, alcohol is forbidden, and other ridiculousness. And let's not forget: Being gay or adultery is an offense worthy of death. Please, keep your low crime rate and I'll keep my freedom. The only thing making Saudi Arabia relevant at all is its oil supply. Lose that and you've got a dried up patch of sand with a lot of people hating others for having it better.
Islam, and every other religion, was created by pure imagination. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it is absolutely true. Every good that it has produced can be reproduced without religion. I know, because I've seen, and done, a lot of good. Of course, you support killing people for adultery, so what do you know of good? Barbaric.
There you go, have fun, mix and match your own will. Islamic Law has to be altered to match the modern society, I was on about the principles. You decided to add your nice little social aspect which I had to respond to. Remember I was taling about fundamentalism which has no implication of any of this, alcohol cause so much more problems than good so don't even dare bring that up. Women have equal right to men, that is a clear fundamental, it doesn't matter what the Muslims do, you can't blame the religion, I am enjoying this debate but its not nice to be so damn harsh! I suppose I haven't either been nice....
Gameloading...you have a point but nevertheless, I don't give a damn, I still find how the events happened ridiculous and how easily Alqaeda had fingers pointed at them (no I am not a supporter of them), the American government is infamous as i've said, you want evidence? click on that link and have fun aswell.
Most people can easily determine there is a God through the number or miraculous occurrences. Most atheist/agnostic believe there is a logical explanation for these phenomena, but there is TOO much phenomena for all to be coincidence. They also refuse to examine any phenomena that has to do with supernatural because they've already got their minds made up.
The NDE is my favorite God phenomena because 2 close members of my family went through the experience. And the change in them was like somthing unreal had happened.
Religion has warped the image of God around and this is why we have people that claim he doesnt exist.
Near death experiences are not evidence at all and the fact that you are convinced that there is a god because of NDE just shows how easily you believe something.
NDE don't prove there is an afterlife and don't prove the existance of a god, the brain is known to go through different states when under pressure, in fact we can now recreate an NDE situation by having higher pressure.
Ofcourse there are a lot of NDE's, there will be more and more as technology gets better and we get better at bringing people back who are at the edge of death.
Now you're starting to sound like an anarchist, the Qur'aan I admit isn't as simple as 'the hungry caterpillar." Look at what you're saying, "Why would Islamic law change?" Forgive me for saying but are you retarded? Is the world exactly how it was a thousand year ago? We have Media, Technology, Medical technology, these all have to be discussed within pious Muslims and then added to the (Shariah)Islamic law. Simple example. Narcotics..they intoxicate a person. They didn't have drugs back then did they? But drugs are contained within medicine which has been decided ok because medicine is used to help a person in need rather one just wanting to get stoned.
Listen...do you possess a degree in Medicine? Scientists who spend their entire lives studying astronomy, DNA, physics have COMPLEMENTED the Qur'aan. I could read teh Qur'aan in Arabic but I wouldnt have a clue what it says nevertheless, the Qur'aan has been translated. Look at you, you keep going far from the original statement I said and I have to keep responding to you. You have picked our the half and half "miracles of the Qur'aan" well done...Why don't you pick out one which we as averages joes can understand! www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_72.html and now click here, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pork#Potential_health_risks there you go, obviously all forms of meat can cause problems such as salmonella but pork by far is infamous for that matter and bacon is even worse. Such as quote which relate to physics I can a make pathetic judgement however it would be sad like what you've put. You need a high level of knowledge of the particular study to undermine it...You think those discoveries were made by anyone? Besides you keep forgetting how much knowledge people so long ago lacked. p.s. If I'm harsh, it's because I am passionate about the harm that religion does to this world and the people on it.
Gratz, now go walk around telling every person who follows a religion that they're stupid, it'll help. Humane morals are respect towards ones believes. E.g. No offense to Hindus but I find the concept of bathing in the river Ganges not right. But I dont go round saying to their faces do I? You're passionate but just deluded.
I understand now. You see, the Bible (Christian Bible), ends with: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelations (22:19)
Now, many Christians believe that includes the entire Bible. It's a sacred text, don't change it. Even though to me it sounds like it just means the Book of Revelations. Anyway... So, what you are saying is, if a law is written in the Qur'an, and then society changes too much for it to apply, then that law becomes null and void and changes? Like, for instance, you perform adultery and you are supposed to die for the offense. Obviously, you wouldn't kill someone for adultery, so, let it slide. Right? Why is that okay when your God so obviously wants you to kill someone for it? Again, I say it is because you have killed that God off and replaced him with a gentler, more understanding, version.
When I discuss the rules and laws of the Qur'an, I'm not talking about advances in medicine and technology. Of course, some could argue that God should have foreseen such things as medicine and technology and created laws that could be broadly applied. Doesn't that just shout out Not-Supernatural?
However, that aside, I'm talking about the things that never change. For instance, the adultery, thieving, murder, rape, changing religions, dealing with other people of different religions, etc. Those things which have a penalty set in stone with no wiggle room. It seems that some of them are followed, and some of them are forgotten. It seems that your religion more closely resembles the Mormon religion, where a living prophet can change a rule at any given time.
Here is what I am saying: A group of men decided to write down the current rules of their time. Taking their general feelings on morality and writing it down in a religious book. They then wrapped them up in a godly blanket and mixed in a fear of Hell to enforce the rules. Now, the reason why these rules change isn't because a fictional God changed his mind, it is because we have continued to morally evolve. What was right is now wrong, and what was wrong is now right. Take for instance your Pork example. It is lean, healthier than many other meats, and yet when cooked properly, perfectly healthy. As healthy as Chicken, to say the least. Cooked improperly, it, and chicken, is a tragedy waiting to happen. So, why did the Qur'an forbid Pork and not Chicken? Why not simply give cooking tips in the Qur'an on how to prepare Pork so that it is healthy? Instead, here is what happened: Generations of people see others getting sick from undercooked pork. A law is made to protect the health of those people. God didn't make this law. Observation did. It's almost scientific in its beauty. God, in his infinite knowledge, wouldn't have restricted it altogether but relayed that you just need to cook it longer in order to ensure that it is safe. Again, more proof that God is man-made -- the failure to act intelligently.
Now, as to me walking around calling people stupid. No. I will continue to post on the subject of religion in order to attempt to help people realize that life on your knees, wasting time, and money, on an imaginary friend is a pointless time sink. Every good that you can do with religion can be replicated without religion. Atheism leads to a respect for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Thanks for listening. This has been a fun debate.
Because Gabriel would not tell someone that Jesus was not crucified and that salvation comes through obedience to a law. That is why. The main TWO (there are more, but for the sake of this reply, it is the death of Jesus and salvation through works) aspects of Christianity was changed in Islam. There are many more, like the name of Yahweh is now Allah. Muslims believe that Jesus was *just* a prophet, yet I call Him fully God.
Anyways, the only two places that I can think of off the top of my head where Gabriel shows up is with Daniel, who illistrates that Jesus is God, then at Jesus' birth, once again giving the deity of Jesus. It would not make since for that same angel to show up, and disregard everything it knew and forsake his Maker and start a new religion.
Comments
Exactly, religion misunderstood is a problem...not the religion itself. You have to be pretty stupid to blame the fundamentals of a religion for terrorism or other events which take place on this Earth.
Of course Religion itself is a problem. It asks that you give your time (the only time you will ever have), your money, and your trust to something that is make-believe. In return, it gives, what?
Pay attention to what you said there.
If someone or something asks you to do something, you are the one making the choice. That does not mean that religion is the problem but instead the people choosing to follow it in a fundamentalist and un-challenging way.
When making these arguments, it is important to follow the flow of logic or else you will be tripped up every time. This argument is no better than the one Ben Stein was making in his movie pointing the blame for Hitler's eugenics program towards Darwin. Or the argument the anti-gun crowd makes. It's displacement of blame and gives people a pass for not thinking.
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Exactly, religion misunderstood is a problem...not the religion itself. You have to be pretty stupid to blame the fundamentals of a religion for terrorism or other events which take place on this Earth.
Of course Religion itself is a problem. It asks that you give your time (the only time you will ever have), your money, and your trust to something that is make-believe. In return, it gives, what?
Pay attention to what you said there.
Sorry, let me change the word. It 'demands', as in, parents raise their children and demand them to be in this religion. Society demands that these same children act like good little religious bots. Religious fanatics place their symbols and books in the public square in order to try to normalize it. Our own minds attempt to go along with the general sway of the majority in order for us to fit in (which is whatever majority religion happens to be in your country). And if you rebel? Christians tend to say, "If you don't like it, move to another country." Yeah, a LOT of them say that. So, I mispoke. It is never 'asks'. I was being gentle.. Not sure why, I'm usually not.If someone or something asks you to do something, you are the one making the choice. That does not mean that religion is the problem but instead the people choosing to follow it in a fundamentalist and un-challenging way.
When making these arguments, it is important to follow the flow of logic or else you will be tripped up every time. This argument is no better than the one Ben Stein was making in his movie pointing the blame for Hitler's eugenics program towards Darwin. Or the argument the anti-gun crowd makes. It's displacement of blame and gives people a pass for not thinking.
So, it's not like you're gently asked one day, "Hey, excuse me. Would you like to be a Christian? No? Okay. Have a nice day." Yeah, right. Most people are born into it, or if not, they are backed by a social structure that welcomes it. If you had been born 6,000 years ago in Asia, you would be on a slightly different track than you are now. But don't worry, the people around you would have told you what to believe, normalized it, and you could sneer at anyone who felt differently.
Religion is a belief in the non-existent. It is a belief in what others have made up. I've made up a lot of fictional characters for screenplays and books, I just don't expect you to worship them. Yes, you can give me your time by reading it, and I'll definitely take your money if you wish to purchase any of the books or movies they are in. I'm all about that.... just don't dedicate a building to any of the characters or spend more than a few hours, total, engaged in them. That's creepy.
So yeah, I agree. People are the problem. People made religion. People dedicate their lives to the worthless cause of it. People use it to abuse other people -- whether knowingly or unknowingly. People use it to help other people and don't realize how badly they fail.
Don't bloody well sit there and tell me it's a great and wonderful thing if it just weren't for all of these people who follow it. Religion can't stand on its own. There is nothing there without people. And yes, it is a problem for all of the reasons I mentioned, and more.
And if you ever compare me to Ben Stein again, I'll call a witch doctor and curse you for the rest of your life. Or a Priest, and have you excommunicated.
- LC
you've missed my intentions. my intention is that yours and my science, our science, can only exist with the influence of a God.you believe we are, because we are. poof. here we are.magic. the similarities between that and woodland fairies, invisible spirits are the same.
big bang might be factual but does that disprove god?
its ok to believe in a God. its perfectly sane and natural. I take offense and show angst towards those who say I cannot or should not because im stupid if I do.
-I will subtlety invade your psyche-
you've missed my intentions. my intention is that yours and my science, our science, can only exist with the influence of a God.you believe we are, because we are. poof. here we are.magic. the similarities between that and woodland fairies, invisible spirits are the same.
big bang might be factual but does that disprove god?
its ok to believe in a God. its perfectly sane and natural. I take offense and show angst towards those who say I cannot or should not because im stupid if I do.
How do you prove that science only exists because God says so? Because a story says so? Another story says something different. A story I just made up says it's because of the Smurfs. Stick to the facts. We live in a material existence with naturally occurring laws (that we have named upon observance) that govern how matter interacts with other matter. Some people then attempt to attach anthropomorphic forms on these laws and theories and ask, "Who made the laws?" Let's not go that direction. That way lies madness for those of us who have had to deal with that blithering stupidity too often.
You say:" you believe we are, because we are. poof. here we are.magic. the similarities between that and woodland fairies, invisible spirits are the same."
Actually, I say, "I don't know how life first formed or where the matter came from to create the Big Bang." That's what I say. So, no... no poof. I'm okay with not filling in the blanks with 'God did it'. God did it is a short cut. A bypass. Some day we will either know how life first formed and where the matter came from, or we will not. In the meantime, I don't need, nor do I want, stories to explain it all. I'm curious, but I am patient. Science requires patience.
You say: big bang might be factual but does that disprove god?
Which god? The Christian God? He says He formed the sky, made light, the Earth, then the stars and sun (kind of redundant to make light, and THEN make the light source, eh?) If the Big Bang is true, how does that match up with Genesis? Or seven days, when we know it was billions of years?
But does it disprove god? No, it's not meant to. It is a scientific theory to explain the way in which our universe formed. Nothing more. It provides information where before we had a gap in our knowledge. The proof of god needs to come from those who believe in it. Just as the proof of a big bang comes from the scientists who first theorized it, studied it, and then present it to us by way of radiation research and so on. If you want people to believe in a god, just provide evidence. It's simple.
You say: its ok to believe in a God. its perfectly sane and natural. I take offense and show angst towards those who say I cannot or should not because im stupid if I do.
I think you don't need it. I think it is perfectly sane and natural NOT to believe in invisible fairytales. And, no one says you 'cannot'. You have the freedom to do what you will. Society even supports you and your beliefs. I do say you 'should not', because I believe that. I think you would be better off without it. The progression of Atheist thinking is a fun journey. At the end you come to the conclusion that all life is special, order is the key to happiness, and making your one life count is a worthwhile endeavor. Oh, and we have cookies. Come on over. I'll share.
- LC
you keep saying stories, fairytales.
i never read the bible. i dont care of anyones religion or choice of worship. i dont care if you believe or not.
the message of god is to be nice to each other. if we are not nice to each other, if someone is mean, science in all its greatness will greet the end of humanity without an emotion. science wont care. it is us that must.
-I will subtlety invade your psyche-
Exactly, religion misunderstood is a problem...not the religion itself. You have to be pretty stupid to blame the fundamentals of a religion for terrorism or other events which take place on this Earth.
Of course Religion itself is a problem. It asks that you give your time (the only time you will ever have), your money, and your trust to something that is make-believe. In return, it gives, what?
I cannot reply with the fundamentals of religion but I can reply with the facts of Islam.
A false sense of security and control over your life? Prayer in place of medical treatment. Prayer in place of elevating yourself through actual effort. Prayer in the belief that it is an actual safety net (Native Americans used to pray over their animal-skin covered shields in the belief that it would stop a bullet -- worked well. For the guy with the gun). Prayer is a wonderful way to do nothing and /feel/ like you've done something. And millions of people participate in it on a daily basis. What a waste of time. And, what a waste of a thank you. Thank the people who actually provide for you, not some invisible sky-daddy. "God, I'd like to thank you for this meal... not the people who grew the food and then cooked it and the employer who pays me so that I could buy it, and on and on and on..."
If that was the case as every Muslim would pray instead of looking left and right before crossing a road. We have been given free will, prayer is just an addition so I have no idea what you are talking about. Why not thank God for a meal, for he is our creator....
It lets you do bad things and 'ask for forgiveness', and just FEEL way down deep in your so-called-soul that yeah, everything is just fine with the world now. Once you're right with God you don't need to be right with your victim, right? God forgives you! All is well. Happens all the time, and it is pathetic and dodgy.
Are you actually taking the p*** now? Have a Muslim explain you details of what the pain and torture one will receive on the day of reckoning and if they are sentenced to hell...How would one know God forgives them, does an angel fly down to the sky with a note of forgiveness?
When you believe in something invisible and supernatural, then you can believe in anything. It is nearly a requirement. Magic? Sure! Ghosts? Sure! Hurricanes that wipe out evil, sinful gays? Sure! Laying on hands? Sure! Donating money for God's blessing? Sure! God killed your cat because you masturbated? Sure!
So what do you believe the universe was created by nothing? we can trade endless insults here but that would just be childish.
It is divisive. Period. It is another barrier for humans to overcome as they try and come together. It becomes another Us vs Them thing. "THEY believe <ridiculous thing>, while WE believe <ridiculous thing>! How can we possibly get along with them?!?" We already have racism, money, politics, patriotism, and a host of other divisions. We do not need religion to add to that list.
So what...as i've said ever so often, why do we have the law? probably nothing wrong with adultery or murder is there? Oh wait the law actually has taken hints from religion itself mt friend...
Did I mention the waste of time? How many man-hours have been wasted by the members of all of the religions of world? Billions? Trillions? I realize we're all masters of wasting time, but don't you think some of that might have led to an advance or two?
I feel like i'm wasting my time right now...
But what about all the good things religion has done? They feed the poor! They provide shelter for the homeless! They provide voting stations!
Fine. Those are great things. Now name something that only religion can do. Feed the poor? Provide shelter for the homeless? Give us a place for voting machines? Yeah, we don't need religion for that.
Religion does nothing but add to problems. We are better than any religion. I look forward to the day it is completely gone.
Don't worry when that day comes the world will be in the state of complete corruption, have fun on that day...
- LC
We're all Geniuses. Most of us just don't know it.
Exactly, religion misunderstood is a problem...not the religion itself. You have to be pretty stupid to blame the fundamentals of a religion for terrorism or other events which take place on this Earth.
Of course Religion itself is a problem. It asks that you give your time (the only time you will ever have), your money, and your trust to something that is make-believe. In return, it gives, what?
I cannot reply with the fundamentals of religion but I can reply with the facts of Islam.
A false sense of security and control over your life? Prayer in place of medical treatment. Prayer in place of elevating yourself through actual effort. Prayer in the belief that it is an actual safety net (Native Americans used to pray over their animal-skin covered shields in the belief that it would stop a bullet -- worked well. For the guy with the gun). Prayer is a wonderful way to do nothing and /feel/ like you've done something. And millions of people participate in it on a daily basis. What a waste of time. And, what a waste of a thank you. Thank the people who actually provide for you, not some invisible sky-daddy. "God, I'd like to thank you for this meal... not the people who grew the food and then cooked it and the employer who pays me so that I could buy it, and on and on and on..."
If that was the case as every Muslim would pray instead of looking left and right before crossing a road. We have been given free will, prayer is just an addition so I have no idea what you are talking about. Why not thank God for a meal, for he is our creator....
It lets you do bad things and 'ask for forgiveness', and just FEEL way down deep in your so-called-soul that yeah, everything is just fine with the world now. Once you're right with God you don't need to be right with your victim, right? God forgives you! All is well. Happens all the time, and it is pathetic and dodgy.
Are you actually taking the p*** now? Have a Muslim explain you details of what the pain and torture one will receive on the day of reckoning and if they are sentenced to hell...How would one know God forgives them, does an angel fly down to the sky with a note of forgiveness?
When you believe in something invisible and supernatural, then you can believe in anything. It is nearly a requirement. Magic? Sure! Ghosts? Sure! Hurricanes that wipe out evil, sinful gays? Sure! Laying on hands? Sure! Donating money for God's blessing? Sure! God killed your cat because you masturbated? Sure!
So what do you believe the universe was created by nothing? we can trade endless insults here but that would just be childish.
It is divisive. Period. It is another barrier for humans to overcome as they try and come together. It becomes another Us vs Them thing. "THEY believe <ridiculous thing>, while WE believe <ridiculous thing>! How can we possibly get along with them?!?" We already have racism, money, politics, patriotism, and a host of other divisions. We do not need religion to add to that list.
So what...as i've said ever so often, why do we have the law? probably nothing wrong with adultery or murder is there? Oh wait the law actually has taken hints from religion itself mt friend...
Did I mention the waste of time? How many man-hours have been wasted by the members of all of the religions of world? Billions? Trillions? I realize we're all masters of wasting time, but don't you think some of that might have led to an advance or two?
I feel like i'm wasting my time right now...
But what about all the good things religion has done? They feed the poor! They provide shelter for the homeless! They provide voting stations!
Fine. Those are great things. Now name something that only religion can do. Feed the poor? Provide shelter for the homeless? Give us a place for voting machines? Yeah, we don't need religion for that.
Religion does nothing but add to problems. We are better than any religion. I look forward to the day it is completely gone.
Don't worry when that day comes the world will be in the state of complete corruption, have fun on that day...
- LC
The facts of Islam? What, that it is made up just like all of the rest? That it has significant problems like any other religion? Yeah, you're special.You say: If that was the case as every Muslim would pray instead of looking left and right before crossing a road. We have been given free will, prayer is just an addition so I have no idea what you are talking about. Why not thank God for a meal, for he is our creator....
That is your example? Crossing the street? I say, people rely on prayer in place of medical treatment, and you give, 'crossing the street'? If you're not going to take this seriously, why try at all?
As to why thank god for a meal: BECAUSE THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GOD. However, there is such a thing as a cook, a butcher, a farmer, and the employer who paid you so could buy all those things. Thank that person(s).
I realize you are delusional about the whole 'creator' thing, but that's fine, there is a cure.
You say: Are you actually taking the p*** now? Have a Muslim explain you details of what the pain and torture one will receive on the day of reckoning and if they are sentenced to hell...How would one know God forgives them, does an angel fly down to the sky with a note of forgiveness?
I have no idea how an imaginary play friend forgives you. I simply know that people pray and act like they are forgiven. As for your imaginary torture place where really bad people go, yeah, imaginary. It is a fear tactic to push people into line with your beliefs. You should be worried though. Every other religion in the world says you'll be going to their version of Hell. So, you better start doing whatever magic dance they say in order to avoid all of them. Pfft.
You say: So what do you believe the universe was created by nothing? we can trade endless insults here but that would just be childish.
I DON'T KNOW. Read what i've written. I'm not going around making up stories to try and explain it. I am fine with not knowing. You make up some imaginary god and pretend like that is the answer. Delusional.
You say: So what...as i've said ever so often, why do we have the law? probably nothing wrong with adultery or murder is there? Oh wait the law actually has taken hints from religion itself mt friend...
Of course there is something wrong with murder. Are you sick in the head? As to adultery, don't Muslims believe in killing people over that? Hmmm.... sick in the head religion. As to the law: religion was born from the imagination of people. The law comes from the same place. Funny how they share the same origin...
As to the rest of what you have said, it is meaningless gibberish. Religion is a Bad Thing[tm], whether it is Christianity, Islam, or whatever made up thing you want to believe in.
- LC
Do I beleive in God?
I'm an agnostic apathetic.
I don't know and I don't care.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
We're all Geniuses. Most of us just don't know it.
You do realize there is much more evidence for Osama bin laden's involvement in 9/11 then the existance of a deity, right?
in fact, you used a really, REALLY poor comparisson.
Do you know that there were actually 11 people suspected with the 9/11 attacks? Do you know that Bin Ladein has not been involved before 9/11 with a terrorist attack against innocent civilians? If there is more existence than what we know why did they produce a dubbed tape of Osama bin ladein saying he was behind 9/11? The more people look into 9/11 the more dubious one becomes, poor comparison...my ass.
There is plenty of reason to believe Osama Bin laden was involved with 9-11. There is not a SHRED of evidence for the existance of a deity, and that's why your comparison is bad.
So, they still used a dubbed tape. It means the evidence was no where near good enough to point the finger, end of story.
the issue is that you're trying to compare something with evidence and where the culprit has actually confirmed to be involved to something that has zero evidence, therefore your comparisson was wrong there, NOW it's end of story
Listen mate there's just as much evidence that 9/11 was conspired, Michael Moor made a friggin documentary about it. All you need to do is google it, we can send each other links all day supporting the event just like this topic itself, hence it was a good comparison. You are just like the other people who suddenly have a facial expression like this
when you realise the government can actually NOT be telling the truth, American government is probably the most infamous with the Area 51 and War in Iraq fiasco which still makes me laugh to this day.
You really don't get it do you? It was an invalid comparisson becausethere is no evidence for the existance of a god!, and now you want to bring in conspiracies into this thread? Just how much of your credibility do you want to lose?What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
To answer your question: The idea that an ancient book written by scared old men in the desert holds scientific knowledge is laughable. It is the same thing as trying to say that Nostradamus is actually foretelling the future. Here is the formula: One part vague passage + common event every decade = prophecy being foretold. It is that simple. Give us an example. Just one. I'll bet it fits into that formula very nicely. You said it yourself, it 'hints' at it. Trust me, Bible freaks try to pull the same thing, but it would be abundantly clear to you when they try it... the only difference is, you have Islamic blinders on instead of Christobrandblinders[tm]. Of course, just once I would like to see this scientific information brought forth from a religious text and used before science has to do all the leg work and actually create it. Yeah, hinting at knowledge. REAL HELPFUL. pfft.As to Saudi Arabia, it has a barbaric system of punishment. If you're seriously proud of it, good for you. Chopping off heads and right hands is a symptom of stupendous idiocy. If that has lowered crime, which apparently it has, I say it has come at an even higher cost. Of course, Saudi Arabia is the same place where women aren't allowed to drive, alcohol is forbidden, and other ridiculousness. And let's not forget: Being gay or adultery is an offense worthy of death. Please, keep your low crime rate and I'll keep my freedom. The only thing making Saudi Arabia relevant at all is its oil supply. Lose that and you've got a dried up patch of sand with a lot of people hating others for having it better.
Islam, and every other religion, was created by pure imagination. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it is absolutely true. Every good that it has produced can be reproduced without religion. I know, because I've seen, and done, a lot of good. Of course, you support killing people for adultery, so what do you know of good? Barbaric.
- LC
Uhm, yea you don't know so don't CARE then. Stop bashing other people way of lives just because you can...its pathetic. Go Saudi Arabia, it's a f-ing third world country yet you'll see how low the crime rate is! The Islamic laws are strict but when the Muslims pay proper attention to the fundamentalism of our religion...does it go wrong no. You are ignorant and know nothing about religion in the concept of itself. But we can go on about this forever so I have one question for you...What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
To answer your question: The idea that an ancient book written by scared old men in the desert holds scientific knowledge is laughable. It is the same thing as trying to say that Nostradamus is actually foretelling the future. Here is the formula: One part vague passage + common event every decade = prophecy being foretold. It is that simple. Give us an example. Just one. I'll bet it fits into that formula very nicely. You said it yourself, it 'hints' at it. Trust me, Bible freaks try to pull the same thing, but it would be abundantly clear to you when they try it... the only difference is, you have Islamic blinders on instead of Christobrandblinders[tm]. Of course, just once I would like to see this scientific information brought forth from a religious text and used before science has to do all the leg work and actually create it. Yeah, hinting at knowledge. REAL HELPFUL. pfft.As to Saudi Arabia, it has a barbaric system of punishment. If you're seriously proud of it, good for you. Chopping off heads and right hands is a symptom of stupendous idiocy. If that has lowered crime, which apparently it has, I say it has come at an even higher cost. Of course, Saudi Arabia is the same place where women aren't allowed to drive, alcohol is forbidden, and other ridiculousness. And let's not forget: Being gay or adultery is an offense worthy of death. Please, keep your low crime rate and I'll keep my freedom. The only thing making Saudi Arabia relevant at all is its oil supply. Lose that and you've got a dried up patch of sand with a lot of people hating others for having it better.
Islam, and every other religion, was created by pure imagination. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it is absolutely true. Every good that it has produced can be reproduced without religion. I know, because I've seen, and done, a lot of good. Of course, you support killing people for adultery, so what do you know of good? Barbaric.
- LC
www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html
There you go, have fun, mix and match your own will. Islamic Law has to be altered to match the modern society, I was on about the principles. You decided to add your nice little social aspect which I had to respond to. Remember I was taling about fundamentalism which has no implication of any of this, alcohol cause so much more problems than good so don't even dare bring that up. Women have equal right to men, that is a clear fundamental, it doesn't matter what the Muslims do, you can't blame the religion, I am enjoying this debate but its not nice to be so damn harsh! I suppose I haven't either been nice....
Gameloading...you have a point but nevertheless, I don't give a damn, I still find how the events happened ridiculous and how easily Alqaeda had fingers pointed at them (no I am not a supporter of them), the American government is infamous as i've said, you want evidence? click on that link and have fun aswell.
We're all Geniuses. Most of us just don't know it.
What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
To answer your question: The idea that an ancient book written by scared old men in the desert holds scientific knowledge is laughable. It is the same thing as trying to say that Nostradamus is actually foretelling the future. Here is the formula: One part vague passage + common event every decade = prophecy being foretold. It is that simple. Give us an example. Just one. I'll bet it fits into that formula very nicely. You said it yourself, it 'hints' at it. Trust me, Bible freaks try to pull the same thing, but it would be abundantly clear to you when they try it... the only difference is, you have Islamic blinders on instead of Christobrandblinders[tm]. Of course, just once I would like to see this scientific information brought forth from a religious text and used before science has to do all the leg work and actually create it. Yeah, hinting at knowledge. REAL HELPFUL. pfft.As to Saudi Arabia, it has a barbaric system of punishment. If you're seriously proud of it, good for you. Chopping off heads and right hands is a symptom of stupendous idiocy. If that has lowered crime, which apparently it has, I say it has come at an even higher cost. Of course, Saudi Arabia is the same place where women aren't allowed to drive, alcohol is forbidden, and other ridiculousness. And let's not forget: Being gay or adultery is an offense worthy of death. Please, keep your low crime rate and I'll keep my freedom. The only thing making Saudi Arabia relevant at all is its oil supply. Lose that and you've got a dried up patch of sand with a lot of people hating others for having it better.
Islam, and every other religion, was created by pure imagination. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it is absolutely true. Every good that it has produced can be reproduced without religion. I know, because I've seen, and done, a lot of good. Of course, you support killing people for adultery, so what do you know of good? Barbaric.
- LC
www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html
There you go, have fun, mix and match your own will. Islamic Law has to be altered to match the modern society, I was on about the principles. You decided to add your nice little social aspect which I had to respond to. Remember I was taling about fundamentalism which has no implication of any of this, alcohol cause so much more problems than good so don't even dare bring that up. Women have equal right to men, that is a clear fundamental, it doesn't matter what the Muslims do, you can't blame the religion, I am enjoying this debate but its not nice to be so damn harsh! I suppose I haven't either been nice....
Gameloading...you have a point but nevertheless, I don't give a damn, I still find how the events happened ridiculous and how easily Alqaeda had fingers pointed at them (no I am not a supporter of them), the American government is infamous as i've said, you want evidence? click on that link and have fun aswell.
Most people can easily determine there is a God through the number or miraculous occurrences. Most atheist/agnostic believe there is a logical explanation for these phenomena, but there is TOO much phenomena for all to be coincidence. They also refuse to examine any phenomena that has to do with supernatural because they've already got their minds made up.
www.near-death.com
The NDE is my favorite God phenomena because 2 close members of my family went through the experience. And the change in them was like somthing unreal had happened.
Religion has warped the image of God around and this is why we have people that claim he doesnt exist.
What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
To answer your question: The idea that an ancient book written by scared old men in the desert holds scientific knowledge is laughable. It is the same thing as trying to say that Nostradamus is actually foretelling the future. Here is the formula: One part vague passage + common event every decade = prophecy being foretold. It is that simple. Give us an example. Just one. I'll bet it fits into that formula very nicely. You said it yourself, it 'hints' at it. Trust me, Bible freaks try to pull the same thing, but it would be abundantly clear to you when they try it... the only difference is, you have Islamic blinders on instead of Christobrandblinders[tm]. Of course, just once I would like to see this scientific information brought forth from a religious text and used before science has to do all the leg work and actually create it. Yeah, hinting at knowledge. REAL HELPFUL. pfft.As to Saudi Arabia, it has a barbaric system of punishment. If you're seriously proud of it, good for you. Chopping off heads and right hands is a symptom of stupendous idiocy. If that has lowered crime, which apparently it has, I say it has come at an even higher cost. Of course, Saudi Arabia is the same place where women aren't allowed to drive, alcohol is forbidden, and other ridiculousness. And let's not forget: Being gay or adultery is an offense worthy of death. Please, keep your low crime rate and I'll keep my freedom. The only thing making Saudi Arabia relevant at all is its oil supply. Lose that and you've got a dried up patch of sand with a lot of people hating others for having it better.
Islam, and every other religion, was created by pure imagination. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it is absolutely true. Every good that it has produced can be reproduced without religion. I know, because I've seen, and done, a lot of good. Of course, you support killing people for adultery, so what do you know of good? Barbaric.
- LC
www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html
There you go, have fun, mix and match your own will. Islamic Law has to be altered to match the modern society, I was on about the principles. You decided to add your nice little social aspect which I had to respond to. Remember I was taling about fundamentalism which has no implication of any of this, alcohol cause so much more problems than good so don't even dare bring that up. Women have equal right to men, that is a clear fundamental, it doesn't matter what the Muslims do, you can't blame the religion, I am enjoying this debate but its not nice to be so damn harsh! I suppose I haven't either been nice....
Gameloading...you have a point but nevertheless, I don't give a damn, I still find how the events happened ridiculous and how easily Alqaeda had fingers pointed at them (no I am not a supporter of them), the American government is infamous as i've said, you want evidence? click on that link and have fun aswell.
Most people can easily determine there is a God through the number or miraculous occurrences. Most atheist/agnostic believe there is a logical explanation for these phenomena, but there is TOO much phenomena for all to be coincidence. They also refuse to examine any phenomena that has to do with supernatural because they've already got their minds made up.
www.near-death.com
The NDE is my favorite God phenomena because 2 close members of my family went through the experience. And the change in them was like somthing unreal had happened.
Religion has warped the image of God around and this is why we have people that claim he doesnt exist.
Near Death Experiences don't hold a lot of weight with me. No one knows what your mind actually goes through when you're in the dying process, perhaps you start reliving old memories or your have random images flash through your mind....or maybe you just see what you've been told to see your whole life. People claim god doesn't exist because he doesn't.
Wow... I don't think I have seen a longer conversation in any of the forums but honestly I don't believe in God either. He (or she) is just a big hoax people like to believe because it makes them feel better to imagine some greater being taking care of their problems and for hope of life after death when obviously when you die you die. There is no God. Deal with it.
As to your website... Let's take the very first point they make as an example:
After that He smoothed out the earth. (Qur'an, 79:30)
Which, basically, the sites author is attempting to say means that the Earth is roundish. Geoid shape, as they put it. What then happens is a bit of translational gymnastics. You then find out that the word 'daha' is used, which supposedly comes from the word 'dahv'. Now, you then ignore the word daha, apparently, and find out that the word dahv means... oh heck, let's just paste up what the site says:
It, translated as "smoothed out," comes from the word "dahv," meaning "to spread." Although the word "dahv" also means to cover or to set out, the meaning of the verb is more than just a prosaic setting out, since it describes setting out in a circle.
The concept of roundness is also present in other words derived from "dahv." For example, the word "dahv" also refers to children dropping a ball into a hole in the ground, games involving throwing stones into holes and games played with walnuts. Words derived from that root are also used for an ostrich making a nest, cleaning stones from where it is about to lie down, the place where it lays its eggs and the egg itself.
So, if you do some nice acrobatics and turn your head just right, a bit more to the left, there you go, then you can see that this obviously means that the earth is roundish and... err. yeah... Right. Obviously, this relies on words being so flexible that they can become anything you want them to. I think the translation of daha means turtle... you know, because the shell can be roundish. So, obviously the earth is on the back of a turtle. Or, the Earth is flat, because it was smoothed out... ever try to smooth something out on something round? There is a lot of sand in the Middle East, and we all know sand on a ball just slides right off, so it would have to be smoothed out on something flat. Poof! The Earth is flat, just like the Qur'an says. It can mean ANTHING.
Other points that the Qur'an makes is that mountains move like clouds... which isn't even remotely true. See here: You see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds. (Qur'an, 27:88)
Unless you found clouds that take millions of years to move a significant distance. Pfft. Again, just making a statement into whatever you want it to mean. You could just as easily say that the Qur'an guessed that all matter is made up of a large amount of space at the molecular level, and therefore 'you reckoned to be solid' is referring to that. It means whatever you want it to. It's just that simple.
A last example of the ridiculousness of vague passages and attempting to shove them into meaningful holes: … Not even an atom's weight eludes your Lord, either on earth or in heaven. Nor is there anything smaller than that, or larger, which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur'an, 10:61)
Isn't that exciting? Allah knew ahead of time that there was something smaller than an atom. Cool, right? Well, until you find out that modern translations seem to think atom means 'a small ant'. Oh, crap. Well, of course there are things smaller than a small ant. Oh well, sounds better if we go with atom instead of ant. Again, mistranslate until you get the definition you want in English.
The fact of the matter is, the Qur'an is so vague and convoluted, then add on top of it a translation into another language, that it can mean anything you want it to. I could literally find proof for ANYTHING in the Qur'an. Not because it is omniscient, but because it is just that bad. Metaphors are not science. Science finding the truth and then looking for some way to predict it in your holy book is pretty lame. Yeah. Lame.
I repeat. Your holy book, the Qur'an, is made up by ordinary men with no divine revelation at all. It is fiction. It is false. Living your life by it is the same as someone else living theirs by a comic book.
All holy books work like this, however. Not just your own. The Bible is so vague and crusted in metaphor that it can mean anything as well. It's just as false.
- LC
p.s. If I'm harsh, it's because I am passionate about the harm that religion does to this world and the people on it.
What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
To answer your question: The idea that an ancient book written by scared old men in the desert holds scientific knowledge is laughable. It is the same thing as trying to say that Nostradamus is actually foretelling the future. Here is the formula: One part vague passage + common event every decade = prophecy being foretold. It is that simple. Give us an example. Just one. I'll bet it fits into that formula very nicely. You said it yourself, it 'hints' at it. Trust me, Bible freaks try to pull the same thing, but it would be abundantly clear to you when they try it... the only difference is, you have Islamic blinders on instead of Christobrandblinders[tm]. Of course, just once I would like to see this scientific information brought forth from a religious text and used before science has to do all the leg work and actually create it. Yeah, hinting at knowledge. REAL HELPFUL. pfft.As to Saudi Arabia, it has a barbaric system of punishment. If you're seriously proud of it, good for you. Chopping off heads and right hands is a symptom of stupendous idiocy. If that has lowered crime, which apparently it has, I say it has come at an even higher cost. Of course, Saudi Arabia is the same place where women aren't allowed to drive, alcohol is forbidden, and other ridiculousness. And let's not forget: Being gay or adultery is an offense worthy of death. Please, keep your low crime rate and I'll keep my freedom. The only thing making Saudi Arabia relevant at all is its oil supply. Lose that and you've got a dried up patch of sand with a lot of people hating others for having it better.
Islam, and every other religion, was created by pure imagination. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it is absolutely true. Every good that it has produced can be reproduced without religion. I know, because I've seen, and done, a lot of good. Of course, you support killing people for adultery, so what do you know of good? Barbaric.
- LC
www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html
There you go, have fun, mix and match your own will. Islamic Law has to be altered to match the modern society, I was on about the principles. You decided to add your nice little social aspect which I had to respond to. Remember I was taling about fundamentalism which has no implication of any of this, alcohol cause so much more problems than good so don't even dare bring that up. Women have equal right to men, that is a clear fundamental, it doesn't matter what the Muslims do, you can't blame the religion, I am enjoying this debate but its not nice to be so damn harsh! I suppose I haven't either been nice....
Gameloading...you have a point but nevertheless, I don't give a damn, I still find how the events happened ridiculous and how easily Alqaeda had fingers pointed at them (no I am not a supporter of them), the American government is infamous as i've said, you want evidence? click on that link and have fun aswell.
Most people can easily determine there is a God through the number or miraculous occurrences. Most atheist/agnostic believe there is a logical explanation for these phenomena, but there is TOO much phenomena for all to be coincidence. They also refuse to examine any phenomena that has to do with supernatural because they've already got their minds made up.
www.near-death.com
The NDE is my favorite God phenomena because 2 close members of my family went through the experience. And the change in them was like somthing unreal had happened.
Religion has warped the image of God around and this is why we have people that claim he doesnt exist.
People are gullible. They want to believe. They want to see miracles. And, they want to be the person who sees a miracle. They will lie about it in order to be the center of attention. Groups of people will do the same thing. Even the Catholic church only acknowledges a handful of true miracles. They throw out thousands upon thousands of others. The handful? A load of bull as well.As to NDE, I present: THIS.
As to TOO MUCH PHENOMENA... I've seen none of it. There isn't a single event in my life that is unexplainable. Isn't it funny how so many strange things happen in third world countries and poverty stricken areas? You know, places with no cameras or much education. Anything that is 'supernatural' withers when put under the light. There is only the natural. There is nothing Supernatural.
- LC
I haven't read the Qu'ran at all. I'm a Christian. However, I believe that a spiritual being appeared to Mohammed and gave it to him. They say it was Gabriel. I say it was a demon, but nonetheless, I believe that it was supernatural gnostic revelation (the literal term).
These types of topics usually don't go anywhere. I've been in too many of these conversations to know that. Yet, man, why do I keep coming back? Haha! I just love talking about it.
Blessings,
MMO migrant.
- LC
As to your website... Let's take the very first point they make as an example:
After that He smoothed out the earth. (Qur'an, 79:30)
Which, basically, the sites author is attempting to say means that the Earth is roundish. Geoid shape, as they put it. What then happens is a bit of translational gymnastics. You then find out that the word 'daha' is used, which supposedly comes from the word 'dahv'. Now, you then ignore the word daha, apparently, and find out that the word dahv means... oh heck, let's just paste up what the site says:
It, translated as "smoothed out," comes from the word "dahv," meaning "to spread." Although the word "dahv" also means to cover or to set out, the meaning of the verb is more than just a prosaic setting out, since it describes setting out in a circle.
The concept of roundness is also present in other words derived from "dahv." For example, the word "dahv" also refers to children dropping a ball into a hole in the ground, games involving throwing stones into holes and games played with walnuts. Words derived from that root are also used for an ostrich making a nest, cleaning stones from where it is about to lie down, the place where it lays its eggs and the egg itself.
So, if you do some nice acrobatics and turn your head just right, a bit more to the left, there you go, then you can see that this obviously means that the earth is roundish and... err. yeah... Right. Obviously, this relies on words being so flexible that they can become anything you want them to. I think the translation of daha means turtle... you know, because the shell can be roundish. So, obviously the earth is on the back of a turtle. Or, the Earth is flat, because it was smoothed out... ever try to smooth something out on something round? There is a lot of sand in the Middle East, and we all know sand on a ball just slides right off, so it would have to be smoothed out on something flat. Poof! The Earth is flat, just like the Qur'an says. It can mean ANTHING.
Other points that the Qur'an makes is that mountains move like clouds... which isn't even remotely true. See here: You see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds. (Qur'an, 27:88)
Unless you found clouds that take millions of years to move a significant distance. Pfft. Again, just making a statement into whatever you want it to mean. You could just as easily say that the Qur'an guessed that all matter is made up of a large amount of space at the molecular level, and therefore 'you reckoned to be solid' is referring to that. It means whatever you want it to. It's just that simple.
A last example of the ridiculousness of vague passages and attempting to shove them into meaningful holes: … Not even an atom's weight eludes your Lord, either on earth or in heaven. Nor is there anything smaller than that, or larger, which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur'an, 10:61)
Isn't that exciting? Allah knew ahead of time that there was something smaller than an atom. Cool, right? Well, until you find out that modern translations seem to think atom means 'a small ant'. Oh, crap. Well, of course there are things smaller than a small ant. Oh well, sounds better if we go with atom instead of ant. Again, mistranslate until you get the definition you want in English.
The fact of the matter is, the Qur'an is so vague and convoluted, then add on top of it a translation into another language, that it can mean anything you want it to. I could literally find proof for ANYTHING in the Qur'an. Not because it is omniscient, but because it is just that bad. Metaphors are not science. Science finding the truth and then looking for some way to predict it in your holy book is pretty lame. Yeah. Lame.
I repeat. Your holy book, the Qur'an, is made up by ordinary men with no divine revelation at all. It is fiction. It is false. Living your life by it is the same as someone else living theirs by a comic book.
All holy books work like this, however. Not just your own. The Bible is so vague and crusted in metaphor that it can mean anything as well. It's just as false.
- LC
p.s. If I'm harsh, it's because I am passionate about the harm that religion does to this world and the people on it.
Now you're starting to sound like an anarchist, the Qur'aan I admit isn't as simple as 'the hungry caterpillar." Look at what you're saying, "Why would Islamic law change?" Forgive me for saying but are you retarded? Is the world exactly how it was a thousand year ago? We have Media, Technology, Medical technology, these all have to be discussed within pious Muslims and then added to the (Shariah)Islamic law. Simple example. Narcotics..they intoxicate a person. They didn't have drugs back then did they? But drugs are contained within medicine which has been decided ok because medicine is used to help a person in need rather one just wanting to get stoned.Listen...do you possess a degree in Medicine? Scientists who spend their entire lives studying astronomy, DNA, physics have COMPLEMENTED the Qur'aan. I could read teh Qur'aan in Arabic but I wouldnt have a clue what it says nevertheless, the Qur'aan has been translated. Look at you, you keep going far from the original statement I said and I have to keep responding to you. You have picked our the half and half "miracles of the Qur'aan" well done...Why don't you pick out one which we as averages joes can understand!
www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_72.html
and now click here, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pork#Potential_health_risks
there you go, obviously all forms of meat can cause problems such as salmonella but pork by far is infamous for that matter and bacon is even worse. Such as quote which relate to physics I can a make pathetic judgement however it would be sad like what you've put. You need a high level of knowledge of the particular study to undermine it...You think those discoveries were made by anyone? Besides you keep forgetting how much knowledge people so long ago lacked.
p.s. If I'm harsh, it's because I am passionate about the harm that religion does to this world and the people on it.
Gratz, now go walk around telling every person who follows a religion that they're stupid, it'll help. Humane morals are respect towards ones believes. E.g. No offense to Hindus but I find the concept of bathing in the river Ganges not right. But I dont go round saying to their faces do I? You're passionate but just deluded.
We're all Geniuses. Most of us just don't know it.
What do you say about the fact that the Qur'aan has sentences which hint at details scientific knowlege in regards to the Earth, I don't want to go into great detail, read it up yourself. I'm not an idiot, I think blindly following what scriptures say is stupid but that is proof. They didnt have microscopes about 1000 years ago did they and do say crap about the Qur'aan being altered or misinterpretation because non-muslims have translated the text also.
The purpose of the above paragraph is to prove that Islam wasn't created by IMAGINATION.
To answer your question: The idea that an ancient book written by scared old men in the desert holds scientific knowledge is laughable. It is the same thing as trying to say that Nostradamus is actually foretelling the future. Here is the formula: One part vague passage + common event every decade = prophecy being foretold. It is that simple. Give us an example. Just one. I'll bet it fits into that formula very nicely. You said it yourself, it 'hints' at it. Trust me, Bible freaks try to pull the same thing, but it would be abundantly clear to you when they try it... the only difference is, you have Islamic blinders on instead of Christobrandblinders[tm]. Of course, just once I would like to see this scientific information brought forth from a religious text and used before science has to do all the leg work and actually create it. Yeah, hinting at knowledge. REAL HELPFUL. pfft.As to Saudi Arabia, it has a barbaric system of punishment. If you're seriously proud of it, good for you. Chopping off heads and right hands is a symptom of stupendous idiocy. If that has lowered crime, which apparently it has, I say it has come at an even higher cost. Of course, Saudi Arabia is the same place where women aren't allowed to drive, alcohol is forbidden, and other ridiculousness. And let's not forget: Being gay or adultery is an offense worthy of death. Please, keep your low crime rate and I'll keep my freedom. The only thing making Saudi Arabia relevant at all is its oil supply. Lose that and you've got a dried up patch of sand with a lot of people hating others for having it better.
Islam, and every other religion, was created by pure imagination. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it is absolutely true. Every good that it has produced can be reproduced without religion. I know, because I've seen, and done, a lot of good. Of course, you support killing people for adultery, so what do you know of good? Barbaric.
- LC
www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html
There you go, have fun, mix and match your own will. Islamic Law has to be altered to match the modern society, I was on about the principles. You decided to add your nice little social aspect which I had to respond to. Remember I was taling about fundamentalism which has no implication of any of this, alcohol cause so much more problems than good so don't even dare bring that up. Women have equal right to men, that is a clear fundamental, it doesn't matter what the Muslims do, you can't blame the religion, I am enjoying this debate but its not nice to be so damn harsh! I suppose I haven't either been nice....
Gameloading...you have a point but nevertheless, I don't give a damn, I still find how the events happened ridiculous and how easily Alqaeda had fingers pointed at them (no I am not a supporter of them), the American government is infamous as i've said, you want evidence? click on that link and have fun aswell.
Most people can easily determine there is a God through the number or miraculous occurrences. Most atheist/agnostic believe there is a logical explanation for these phenomena, but there is TOO much phenomena for all to be coincidence. They also refuse to examine any phenomena that has to do with supernatural because they've already got their minds made up.
www.near-death.com
The NDE is my favorite God phenomena because 2 close members of my family went through the experience. And the change in them was like somthing unreal had happened.
Religion has warped the image of God around and this is why we have people that claim he doesnt exist.
Near death experiences are not evidence at all and the fact that you are convinced that there is a god because of NDE just shows how easily you believe something.NDE don't prove there is an afterlife and don't prove the existance of a god, the brain is known to go through different states when under pressure, in fact we can now recreate an NDE situation by having higher pressure.
Ofcourse there are a lot of NDE's, there will be more and more as technology gets better and we get better at bringing people back who are at the edge of death.
I understand now. You see, the Bible (Christian Bible), ends with: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelations (22:19)
Now, many Christians believe that includes the entire Bible. It's a sacred text, don't change it. Even though to me it sounds like it just means the Book of Revelations. Anyway... So, what you are saying is, if a law is written in the Qur'an, and then society changes too much for it to apply, then that law becomes null and void and changes? Like, for instance, you perform adultery and you are supposed to die for the offense. Obviously, you wouldn't kill someone for adultery, so, let it slide. Right? Why is that okay when your God so obviously wants you to kill someone for it? Again, I say it is because you have killed that God off and replaced him with a gentler, more understanding, version.
When I discuss the rules and laws of the Qur'an, I'm not talking about advances in medicine and technology. Of course, some could argue that God should have foreseen such things as medicine and technology and created laws that could be broadly applied. Doesn't that just shout out Not-Supernatural?
However, that aside, I'm talking about the things that never change. For instance, the adultery, thieving, murder, rape, changing religions, dealing with other people of different religions, etc. Those things which have a penalty set in stone with no wiggle room. It seems that some of them are followed, and some of them are forgotten. It seems that your religion more closely resembles the Mormon religion, where a living prophet can change a rule at any given time.
Here is what I am saying: A group of men decided to write down the current rules of their time. Taking their general feelings on morality and writing it down in a religious book. They then wrapped them up in a godly blanket and mixed in a fear of Hell to enforce the rules. Now, the reason why these rules change isn't because a fictional God changed his mind, it is because we have continued to morally evolve. What was right is now wrong, and what was wrong is now right. Take for instance your Pork example. It is lean, healthier than many other meats, and yet when cooked properly, perfectly healthy. As healthy as Chicken, to say the least. Cooked improperly, it, and chicken, is a tragedy waiting to happen. So, why did the Qur'an forbid Pork and not Chicken? Why not simply give cooking tips in the Qur'an on how to prepare Pork so that it is healthy? Instead, here is what happened: Generations of people see others getting sick from undercooked pork. A law is made to protect the health of those people. God didn't make this law. Observation did. It's almost scientific in its beauty. God, in his infinite knowledge, wouldn't have restricted it altogether but relayed that you just need to cook it longer in order to ensure that it is safe. Again, more proof that God is man-made -- the failure to act intelligently.
Now, as to me walking around calling people stupid. No. I will continue to post on the subject of religion in order to attempt to help people realize that life on your knees, wasting time, and money, on an imaginary friend is a pointless time sink. Every good that you can do with religion can be replicated without religion. Atheism leads to a respect for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Thanks for listening. This has been a fun debate.
- LC
I'm going to have to agree with Arndur on this one.
Anyways, the only two places that I can think of off the top of my head where Gabriel shows up is with Daniel, who illistrates that Jesus is God, then at Jesus' birth, once again giving the deity of Jesus. It would not make since for that same angel to show up, and disregard everything it knew and forsake his Maker and start a new religion.
My two cents.
Blessings,
MMO migrant.