I agree with the first part of your post, but not the second. IMO, levels and gear are not requirements for a RPG. How about, you create a character, allocate stat points, pick your skills, then play the game. Your stats and skills will never advance from that point on, but you're still playing as a unique character. The only difference is that you're not climbing a repetitive ladder of "progression".
Grinding for gear is the same thing as leveling in my book. They are both forms of character development.
How would you entice people to play a game with no gear, no leveling, no stat/skill increase? What would be the "carrot stick"?
"You're basically asking for the RPG to be offcially taken out. Not that there is many MMOs with any sort of role to play other than a raider." How am I asking for the RPG to be taken out ? The games would still have roleplay and obviously still have gameplay. Everyone has their own opinion of what roleplay means to them. To me its not standing around talking all old engligh like, to me its just playing that character in the persistent world of an MMO. My personality is that characters personality, the world I am in is the role play, leveling for 3 weeks doesn't make roleplay.
There is a reason why Halo/Vice CIty/FPS aren't considered to be RPGs, although, technically you are playing a role.
Levels are stupid as hell. They are a mechanism that was introduced in pen & paper RPGs to ease character progression. There is no reason at all they should exist in video games where every attribute and skill level increase can be computed on the spot. Smarter devs make sandbox games, smarter devs understand levels are shit. It's as simple as that. I won't give links to sandbox games in development here, because I don't want to make it easy for the brainwashed people here to go on those games forums and ruin them, but yes there are games made by less stupid game designers out there.
I wonder if you are in closed beta for the same sandbox game mind if we get a private convo going I will PM you. This way we can exchange information. The one I'm in CB for explicitly expressed that they don't want us advertising it yet so I've been keeping my mouth shut as well
I agree with much of what you say. I'm not tossing salt at the Level based games they are fun in their own way but like you I would like to see more options for us sandbox types
"You're basically asking for the RPG to be offcially taken out. Not that there is many MMOs with any sort of role to play other than a raider." How am I asking for the RPG to be taken out ? The games would still have roleplay and obviously still have gameplay. Everyone has their own opinion of what roleplay means to them. To me its not standing around talking all old engligh like, to me its just playing that character in the persistent world of an MMO. My personality is that characters personality, the world I am in is the role play, leveling for 3 weeks doesn't make roleplay.
There is a reason why Halo/Vice CIty/FPS aren't considered to be RPGs, although, technically you are playing a role.
roleplay can technically occur in almost any game that have the basic groundwork laid out. You see a ton of Roleplayers in Second Life. SL is doesnt give me my fix personally but what I have observed all the developer has to do is toss out a couple of toys and players can get roleplay going
You don't need Levels to get roleplay
You both are right; no one is wrong so I don't think that point should be argued
How would you entice people to play a game with no gear, no leveling, no stat/skill increase? What would be the "carrot stick"?
Short answer: game play. This is one area in which MMOs have always (IMO) been lacking. Of course, they usually made up for it with features like persistant worlds, character advancement, treadmills...all of these were the "hooks" that kept players comming back, despite the weak/boring/clunky game play.
The long answer to the question would be that it depends on the specific game. An MMO with no character advancement (in the typical sense) would have to be designed around this idea. A PvP game, with challenging game play, that was based around a player driven economy and the control of land/resources, could survive with out character advancement.
This whole leveling thing was broken from the start. Leveling is a single-player linear mechanic designed to drag you by the nose through some pre-scripted content. Levels here just to ensure you go through their content at a certain pace and that you don't stray from the designated zones.
Protracted leveling (beyond some kind of a basic tutorial like in GW) is a thing of the past. Look at AoC - people rush through the game to get to the max level as soon as possible. Why? Because they're evil or dumb? No, because they know that it is the so-called "endgame" (or let's call it the "real startgame") when the game really begins and things that actually matter in their virtual lives start happening.
Leveling has become a kind of a dull ritual to endure till you start having some meaningful fun at max level. Imagine AoC with you at max level upon leaving Tortage... After that you go collecting skills and gear and things. Go wherever you want. Build that damn keep or do a siege if you want. If the zone is too tough for you, too bad. Go and improve your character and gameplay till you can try it again. No "this zone is for 33-35. Move away."
I really don't get any sense of accomplishment whatsoever from suddenly being able to do something just because a number on my screen increased due to me killing some helpless mobs for a few hours. Did I become a better player? Did I actually did something on my own? No. The GAME decided that now I'm suddenly good enough to beat that challenge.
A game with full open, persistent world capability and GW's almost level-less RPG system would be something... Maybe GW2 will fit the bill although I heard they mentioned "improving the game" by increasing the level cap. I hope to god this isn't true because this would destroy the last shreds of real hope I have for this genre.
I agree with the first part of your post, but not the second. IMO, levels and gear are not requirements for a RPG. How about, you create a character, allocate stat points, pick your skills, then play the game. Your stats and skills will never advance from that point on, but you're still playing as a unique character. The only difference is that you're not climbing a repetitive ladder of "progression".
Grinding for gear is the same thing as leveling in my book. They are both forms of character development.
How would you entice people to play a game with no gear, no leveling, no stat/skill increase? What would be the "carrot stick"?
Play a good game like GTA 4, Battlefield, Counterstrike, RTS games like Supreme Commander. The answer is simple: you get players to play for fun; not for carrots
There are gamers that have played these types of games for many, many years non-stop. I know I clocked in countless hours into many of them myself
In starcraft, all we had was a Ladder that was persistant. That felt like the worse death penalty of all- seeing a loss going on your permenant record
"You're basically asking for the RPG to be offcially taken out. Not that there is many MMOs with any sort of role to play other than a raider." How am I asking for the RPG to be taken out ? The games would still have roleplay and obviously still have gameplay. Everyone has their own opinion of what roleplay means to them. To me its not standing around talking all old engligh like, to me its just playing that character in the persistent world of an MMO. My personality is that characters personality, the world I am in is the role play, leveling for 3 weeks doesn't make roleplay "You will get all the UBER equipment just to get you to the front door of your final battle which should last a GRAND total of 3 minutes." Where did I ask for all the gear and loot ? As an example I used WoW and even then it would only be level 70 with basic level 70 greens, hardly something I would call uber. You would still have to farm the level 70 instances to get your blues to move onto raids and get your epics. The same with BG PvP gear, you would have to earn it all like anyone else. You would still have to farm your gold to pay for repairs or buy BoE blues and purples. I guess you just forgot to read anything I said. Also as an example take the next WoW expansion Lich King. All it is is going to be more leveling with a few new instances and the new pvp zone and that is about it really for the major parts of the game (oh yeah almost forgot about the Death Night class). How about instead to putting time into the leveling and just focusing on making the pvp zone extremely robust and rewarding instead of some watered down pvp zone with bad design like the pvp objectives in BC ?
you have a really good head on your shoulders I agree it would be awesome to see more games come out and focus on a "niche" instead of spreading themselves to thin and suffer bad launches because they keep trying to make Everyone happy- in which no one really can
ever heard of CS? all the action you need and no need to leveling at all, you start all the same and will earn money if you have the skill, and remember, no LEVELING and PLENTY of fun.
"Grinding for gear is the same thing as leveling in my book. They are both forms of character development."
"How would you entice people to play a game with no gear, no leveling, no stat/skill increase? What would be the "carrot stick"?"
I'll agree with that but like I said, I would rather get to that stage to start than doing tedious quests to get to grind for gear. The carrot on the stick would still be the gear and dungeon progression like WoW for instance.
"There is a reason why Halo/Vice CIty/FPS aren't considered to be RPGs, although, technically you are playing a role."
This is true, I guess I forgot to add that part of RPGs are the stats that govern your damage and defensive abilities. Either way leveling doesn't equal RPG.
I agree with the OP completely. This whole leveling thing was broken from the start. Leveling is a single-player linear mechanic designed to drag you by the nose through some pre-scripted content. Levels here just to ensure you go through their content at a certain pace and that you don't stray from the designated zones. Protracted leveling (beyond some kind of a basic tutorial like in GW) is a thing of the past. Look at AoC - people rush through the game to get to the max level as soon as possible. Why? Because they're evil or dumb? No, because they know that it is the so-called "endgame" (or let's call it the "real startgame") when the game really begins and things that actually matter in their virtual lives start happening. Leveling has become a kind of a dull ritual to endure till you start having some meaningful fun at max level. Imagine AoC with you at max level upon leaving Tortage... After that you go collecting skills and gear and things. Go wherever you want. Build that damn keep or do a siege if you want. If the zone is too tough for you, too bad. Go and improve your character and gameplay till you can try it again. No "this zone is for 33-35. Move away." I really don't get any sense of accomplishment whatsoever from suddenly being able to do something just because a number on my screen increased due to me killing some helpless mobs for a few hours. Did I become a better player? Did I actually did something on my own? No. The GAME decided that now I'm suddenly good enough to beat that challenge. A game with full open, persistent world capability and GW's almost level-less RPG system would be something... Maybe GW2 will fit the bill although I heard they mentioned "improving the game" by increasing the level cap. I hope to god this isn't true because this would destroy the last shreds of real hope I have for this genre.
I really liked GW and yeah like you was shocked to hear they were increasing the level cap
At least PVPers will still be autoleveled to max for PVP so I'm not going to through stones at them right now
Btw here is link to a levelless game in the works by a guy from GTA/Crackdown Fame:
Eve is Not automatic, you raise a skill and it can take months before you can use it
Thats the exact same as a level grind, you wanna use that battle cruiser well you better wait 2 weeks to raise ship command and another 5 hours just to use the weakest one, you want in the best one you have to wait over a month and a half almost.. Its still a grind except in a level grind at least your doing something . And in eve you get close to finishing and some guy pwns you and you dont have a big enough clone time to start over
ever heard of CS? all the action you need and no need to leveling at all, you start all the same and will earn money if you have the skill, and remember, no LEVELING and PLENTY of fun.
FPS is fun, but theres no persistant world, no character creation or customization, no depth...
When some one finally does a great job of combining FPS and MMO, then we'll have something really interesting...for me at least.
Levels are stupid as hell. They are a mechanism that was introduced in pen & paper RPGs to ease character progression. There is no reason at all they should exist in video games where every attribute and skill level increase can be computed on the spot. Smarter devs make sandbox games, smarter devs understand levels are shit. It's as simple as that. I won't give links to sandbox games in development here, because I don't want to make it easy for the brainwashed people here to go on those games forums and ruin them, but yes there are games made by less stupid game designers out there.
Grinding levels or grinding skill boxes whats the difference? He meant just come in do what you want without grinding. Something like going to pre nge swg and spending all your points w/o grinding for the xp. I doubt the people at blizz or mythic are idiots. The smart devs make games for the masses. People called nintendo stupid for not trying to make graphics on par with the 360 or ps3 and they have outsold them both now. This is a business smart devs makes game for money they arent there to please one group of gamers they are there to please the masses.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
I agree with the OP completely. This whole leveling thing was broken from the start. Leveling is a single-player linear mechanic designed to drag you by the nose through some pre-scripted content. Levels here just to ensure you go through their content at a certain pace and that you don't stray from the designated zones. Protracted leveling (beyond some kind of a basic tutorial like in GW) is a thing of the past. Look at AoC - people rush through the game to get to the max level as soon as possible. Why? Because they're evil or dumb? No, because they know that it is the so-called "endgame" (or let's call it the "real startgame") when the game really begins and things that actually matter in their virtual lives start happening. Leveling has become a kind of a dull ritual to endure till you start having some meaningful fun at max level. Imagine AoC with you at max level upon leaving Tortage... After that you go collecting skills and gear and things. Go wherever you want. Build that damn keep or do a siege if you want. If the zone is too tough for you, too bad. Go and improve your character and gameplay till you can try it again. No "this zone is for 33-35. Move away." I really don't get any sense of accomplishment whatsoever from suddenly being able to do something just because a number on my screen increased due to me killing some helpless mobs for a few hours. Did I become a better player? Did I actually did something on my own? No. The GAME decided that now I'm suddenly good enough to beat that challenge. A game with full open, persistent world capability and GW's almost level-less RPG system would be something... Maybe GW2 will fit the bill although I heard they mentioned "improving the game" by increasing the level cap. I hope to god this isn't true because this would destroy the last shreds of real hope I have for this genre.
It is true there will be a level cap increase. They even talked about there not being a level cap. or if there is a cap something like 200.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
Eve is Not automatic, you raise a skill and it can take months before you can use it Thats the exact same as a level grind, you wanna use that battle cruiser well you better wait 2 weeks to raise ship command and another 5 hours just to use the weakest one, you want in the best one you have to wait over a month and a half almost.. Its still a grind except in a level grind at least your doing something . And in eve you get close to finishing and some guy pwns you and you dont have a big enough clone time to start over
LoL, this isn't a thread about the negatives or even the pluses of Eve. I believe I already said imagine if in Eve you were handed a bunch of skill points to spend at the start of the game and distributed them however you wanted how much that might actually change the game and make it easier for new players to enter the game since a lot of people seem to already think that the way the system is they don't stand a chance of ever catcing up
@vajuras: That APB game looks like it could be done well especially considering who is making it. Will just have to wait and see. It looks like it's a little ways away from coming out.
OP would have loved original SWG, there were no levels, no classes you were locked in to, you could mix and match professions however you wanted. You could have been a weaponsmith with a little rifleman on the side or a Bounty Hunter who also danced in a cantina. It was truly groundbreaking.
And because there were no set levels, new characters could do a lot of the same stuff that the oldest could do.
I spent most of my time as a Jedi-Hunting Bounty Hunter (yes you could hunt other players for money, it was in the game...incredible). I also spent some time killing a particular type of NPC for weapon powerups that I would sell to weaponsmiths, and also hunting creatures for meat to sell to doctors. I was also a member of a guild and participated in our player cities' government, and there was always the Bestine - AH faction pvp. These were all inter-player relationships, and they were better than the best WoW dungeon.
And SWG was a AAA game backed by a major company, not one of those half baked F2P games that, while they may have good ideas, don't have the funding or talent to make them appeal to a large audience on a long term scale.
Yeah I remember when SWG came out but my system at the time couldn't handle it. From what I have read though they have basically ruined SWG which saddens me as I am a pretty big Star Wars fan.
I am looking forward to Darkfall if and when it does come out. Its looking to be what I really want in a game going by I have read about it.
Originally posted by Arndur Grinding levels or grinding skill boxes whats the difference?
Alright I hear this argument all the time and its time to kill it once and for all.
In a game with levels I have been playing for a week and just talked my friend into it. I'm already level 15, he is level 1. What happens now? I get to walk a useless noob through the same stupid quests I just ran through. Or I halt my progress and wait for him to catch up. Sometime later one of us goes on a marathon gaming spree over the weekend and out-levels the other by 20. We never catch up to each other again. One of us is always so weak that our heals aren't effective or we cannot attack with weapon or magic the enemies the other would fight for XP.
In a skill-based game I had been playing for two weeks when I talked my buddy into playing preCU SWG. I had a really good rifle and some armor but was still a long ways from maxing out my skills. Did I have to run him through quests where I slaughtered everything while he basically just watched? Nope. Did I have to sit around and wait for him to catch up? Nope. Did a weekend marathon of grinding make it useless for us to group anymore? Nope. Right from the start I handed him a maxed stat newbie weapon I'd made and started running missions with him. He was able to do useful amounts of damage and later healing, even though I was more effective. From the very beginning to when the game ended, we were always able to group and play together. As novices we were invited into guilds and were taken to hunt some of the toughest critters in the game and even participated in PvP, long before ever maxing out stats. And while we weren't always heavy hitters, we weren't useless.
Say levels are great because you like them. Say levels are good because its easy to balance. Say levels are wise because it gives people an instant goal without having to think about it. But don't say that level and skill based games are the same thing.
I agree with the OP completely. This whole leveling thing was broken from the start. Leveling is a single-player linear mechanic designed to drag you by the nose through some pre-scripted content. Levels here just to ensure you go through their content at a certain pace and that you don't stray from the designated zones. Protracted leveling (beyond some kind of a basic tutorial like in GW) is a thing of the past. Look at AoC - people rush through the game to get to the max level as soon as possible. Why? Because they're evil or dumb? No, because they know that it is the so-called "endgame" (or let's call it the "real startgame") when the game really begins and things that actually matter in their virtual lives start happening. Leveling has become a kind of a dull ritual to endure till you start having some meaningful fun at max level. Imagine AoC with you at max level upon leaving Tortage... After that you go collecting skills and gear and things. Go wherever you want. Build that damn keep or do a siege if you want. If the zone is too tough for you, too bad. Go and improve your character and gameplay till you can try it again. No "this zone is for 33-35. Move away." I really don't get any sense of accomplishment whatsoever from suddenly being able to do something just because a number on my screen increased due to me killing some helpless mobs for a few hours. Did I become a better player? Did I actually did something on my own? No. The GAME decided that now I'm suddenly good enough to beat that challenge. A game with full open, persistent world capability and GW's almost level-less RPG system would be something... Maybe GW2 will fit the bill although I heard they mentioned "improving the game" by increasing the level cap. I hope to god this isn't true because this would destroy the last shreds of real hope I have for this genre.
It is true there will be a level cap increase. They even talked about there not being a level cap. or if there is a cap something like 200.
You know what?
Actually if there is no level cap it might work almost as well as if there was no leveling at all...
Imo it all depends on how large are the differences in total power between levels. For example if "levels" in GW2 actually denote just the number of extra skills your character gathered and they don't, for example, automatically add HP or gear requirements then this might work as an essentially level-less game.
If you were a level 10 and you saw a guy level 200 you'd know that this dude is really experienced and could trash the bejesus out of you. However you could still have a chance of beating him if you happen to have a right combination of skills. In addition you could conceivably go on a PvE quest together because your total power wouldn't differ as much.
I wouldn't hold my breath though. In my experience it is very rare for successful game designers to actually realize what made their runaway success games so good. We'll see.
It just feels now like all mmo makers out there have so much focus on designing the early content to hook players that end game content lacks severely for a year or two until that end content can be designed and tested.
In truth, the best content of a game is in the middle (so gamers don't get bored and never finish). The "end game" is usually thought about at the very end (and that's mainly due to pressure to release the game -- which is why there's so many issues with balancing, too).
MMOs aren't designed like offline games, that is interested in franchising a title. They depend on monthly subscriptions as their franchising, so the bait and switch marketing is the game of the day. Worse, requiring to buy a CD and THEN asking you to pay for being basically a 24/7/356 beta tester.
It's no wonder why this genre isn't very large.
If MMO devs can't get 90% of the bugs gone in true beta testing, they really need delay the release, as nothing is worse than 10,000 gamers pissed off because of 10,000 bugs and advertizing it to 10,000 sites.
Comments
Grinding for gear is the same thing as leveling in my book. They are both forms of character development.
How would you entice people to play a game with no gear, no leveling, no stat/skill increase? What would be the "carrot stick"?
There is a reason why Halo/Vice CIty/FPS aren't considered to be RPGs, although, technically you are playing a role.
I wonder if you are in closed beta for the same sandbox game mind if we get a private convo going I will PM you. This way we can exchange information. The one I'm in CB for explicitly expressed that they don't want us advertising it yet so I've been keeping my mouth shut as well
I agree with much of what you say. I'm not tossing salt at the Level based games they are fun in their own way but like you I would like to see more options for us sandbox types
There is a reason why Halo/Vice CIty/FPS aren't considered to be RPGs, although, technically you are playing a role.
roleplay can technically occur in almost any game that have the basic groundwork laid out. You see a ton of Roleplayers in Second Life. SL is doesnt give me my fix personally but what I have observed all the developer has to do is toss out a couple of toys and players can get roleplay going
You don't need Levels to get roleplay
You both are right; no one is wrong so I don't think that point should be argued
Short answer: game play. This is one area in which MMOs have always (IMO) been lacking. Of course, they usually made up for it with features like persistant worlds, character advancement, treadmills...all of these were the "hooks" that kept players comming back, despite the weak/boring/clunky game play.
The long answer to the question would be that it depends on the specific game. An MMO with no character advancement (in the typical sense) would have to be designed around this idea. A PvP game, with challenging game play, that was based around a player driven economy and the control of land/resources, could survive with out character advancement.
I agree with the OP completely.
This whole leveling thing was broken from the start. Leveling is a single-player linear mechanic designed to drag you by the nose through some pre-scripted content. Levels here just to ensure you go through their content at a certain pace and that you don't stray from the designated zones.
Protracted leveling (beyond some kind of a basic tutorial like in GW) is a thing of the past. Look at AoC - people rush through the game to get to the max level as soon as possible. Why? Because they're evil or dumb? No, because they know that it is the so-called "endgame" (or let's call it the "real startgame") when the game really begins and things that actually matter in their virtual lives start happening.
Leveling has become a kind of a dull ritual to endure till you start having some meaningful fun at max level. Imagine AoC with you at max level upon leaving Tortage... After that you go collecting skills and gear and things. Go wherever you want. Build that damn keep or do a siege if you want. If the zone is too tough for you, too bad. Go and improve your character and gameplay till you can try it again. No "this zone is for 33-35. Move away."
I really don't get any sense of accomplishment whatsoever from suddenly being able to do something just because a number on my screen increased due to me killing some helpless mobs for a few hours. Did I become a better player? Did I actually did something on my own? No. The GAME decided that now I'm suddenly good enough to beat that challenge.
A game with full open, persistent world capability and GW's almost level-less RPG system would be something... Maybe GW2 will fit the bill although I heard they mentioned "improving the game" by increasing the level cap. I hope to god this isn't true because this would destroy the last shreds of real hope I have for this genre.
Grinding for gear is the same thing as leveling in my book. They are both forms of character development.
How would you entice people to play a game with no gear, no leveling, no stat/skill increase? What would be the "carrot stick"?
Play a good game like GTA 4, Battlefield, Counterstrike, RTS games like Supreme Commander. The answer is simple: you get players to play for fun; not for carrots
There are gamers that have played these types of games for many, many years non-stop. I know I clocked in countless hours into many of them myself
In starcraft, all we had was a Ladder that was persistant. That felt like the worse death penalty of all- seeing a loss going on your permenant record
you have a really good head on your shoulders I agree it would be awesome to see more games come out and focus on a "niche" instead of spreading themselves to thin and suffer bad launches because they keep trying to make Everyone happy- in which no one really can
ever heard of CS? all the action you need and no need to leveling at all, you start all the same and will earn money if you have the skill, and remember, no LEVELING and PLENTY of fun.
"Grinding for gear is the same thing as leveling in my book. They are both forms of character development."
"How would you entice people to play a game with no gear, no leveling, no stat/skill increase? What would be the "carrot stick"?"
I'll agree with that but like I said, I would rather get to that stage to start than doing tedious quests to get to grind for gear. The carrot on the stick would still be the gear and dungeon progression like WoW for instance.
"There is a reason why Halo/Vice CIty/FPS aren't considered to be RPGs, although, technically you are playing a role."
This is true, I guess I forgot to add that part of RPGs are the stats that govern your damage and defensive abilities. Either way leveling doesn't equal RPG.
I really liked GW and yeah like you was shocked to hear they were increasing the level cap
At least PVPers will still be autoleveled to max for PVP so I'm not going to through stones at them right now
Btw here is link to a levelless game in the works by a guy from GTA/Crackdown Fame:
http://www.apb.com/
Eve is Not automatic, you raise a skill and it can take months before you can use it
Thats the exact same as a level grind, you wanna use that battle cruiser well you better wait 2 weeks to raise ship command and another 5 hours just to use the weakest one, you want in the best one you have to wait over a month and a half almost.. Its still a grind except in a level grind at least your doing something . And in eve you get close to finishing and some guy pwns you and you dont have a big enough clone time to start over
FPS is fun, but theres no persistant world, no character creation or customization, no depth...
When some one finally does a great job of combining FPS and MMO, then we'll have something really interesting...for me at least.
Grinding levels or grinding skill boxes whats the difference? He meant just come in do what you want without grinding. Something like going to pre nge swg and spending all your points w/o grinding for the xp. I doubt the people at blizz or mythic are idiots. The smart devs make games for the masses. People called nintendo stupid for not trying to make graphics on par with the 360 or ps3 and they have outsold them both now. This is a business smart devs makes game for money they arent there to please one group of gamers they are there to please the masses.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
It is true there will be a level cap increase. They even talked about there not being a level cap. or if there is a cap something like 200.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
@vajuras: That APB game looks like it could be done well especially considering who is making it. Will just have to wait and see. It looks like it's a little ways away from coming out.
OP would have loved original SWG, there were no levels, no classes you were locked in to, you could mix and match professions however you wanted. You could have been a weaponsmith with a little rifleman on the side or a Bounty Hunter who also danced in a cantina. It was truly groundbreaking.
And because there were no set levels, new characters could do a lot of the same stuff that the oldest could do.
I spent most of my time as a Jedi-Hunting Bounty Hunter (yes you could hunt other players for money, it was in the game...incredible). I also spent some time killing a particular type of NPC for weapon powerups that I would sell to weaponsmiths, and also hunting creatures for meat to sell to doctors. I was also a member of a guild and participated in our player cities' government, and there was always the Bestine - AH faction pvp. These were all inter-player relationships, and they were better than the best WoW dungeon.
And SWG was a AAA game backed by a major company, not one of those half baked F2P games that, while they may have good ideas, don't have the funding or talent to make them appeal to a large audience on a long term scale.
Yeah I remember when SWG came out but my system at the time couldn't handle it. From what I have read though they have basically ruined SWG which saddens me as I am a pretty big Star Wars fan.
I am looking forward to Darkfall if and when it does come out. Its looking to be what I really want in a game going by I have read about it.
Alright I hear this argument all the time and its time to kill it once and for all.
In a game with levels
I have been playing for a week and just talked my friend into it. I'm already level 15, he is level 1. What happens now? I get to walk a useless noob through the same stupid quests I just ran through. Or I halt my progress and wait for him to catch up. Sometime later one of us goes on a marathon gaming spree over the weekend and out-levels the other by 20. We never catch up to each other again. One of us is always so weak that our heals aren't effective or we cannot attack with weapon or magic the enemies the other would fight for XP.
In a skill-based game
I had been playing for two weeks when I talked my buddy into playing preCU SWG. I had a really good rifle and some armor but was still a long ways from maxing out my skills. Did I have to run him through quests where I slaughtered everything while he basically just watched? Nope. Did I have to sit around and wait for him to catch up? Nope. Did a weekend marathon of grinding make it useless for us to group anymore? Nope. Right from the start I handed him a maxed stat newbie weapon I'd made and started running missions with him. He was able to do useful amounts of damage and later healing, even though I was more effective. From the very beginning to when the game ended, we were always able to group and play together. As novices we were invited into guilds and were taken to hunt some of the toughest critters in the game and even participated in PvP, long before ever maxing out stats. And while we weren't always heavy hitters, we weren't useless.
Say levels are great because you like them. Say levels are good because its easy to balance. Say levels are wise because it gives people an instant goal without having to think about it. But don't say that level and skill based games are the same thing.
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You just described Guild Wars. Exactly. Seriously, it takes like a matter of hours to hit max level. I think you'd like it a lot.
I bought Guild Wars when it came out and I hated it unfortunately.
It is true there will be a level cap increase. They even talked about there not being a level cap. or if there is a cap something like 200.
You know what?
Actually if there is no level cap it might work almost as well as if there was no leveling at all...
Imo it all depends on how large are the differences in total power between levels. For example if "levels" in GW2 actually denote just the number of extra skills your character gathered and they don't, for example, automatically add HP or gear requirements then this might work as an essentially level-less game.
If you were a level 10 and you saw a guy level 200 you'd know that this dude is really experienced and could trash the bejesus out of you. However you could still have a chance of beating him if you happen to have a right combination of skills. In addition you could conceivably go on a PvE quest together because your total power wouldn't differ as much.
I wouldn't hold my breath though. In my experience it is very rare for successful game designers to actually realize what made their runaway success games so good. We'll see.
If you won't play GW or EVE then you're SOL. Simple as that.
Leveling as a progression system is an archaic system, but the real question is... Can the RPG genre survive without it?
In truth, the best content of a game is in the middle (so gamers don't get bored and never finish). The "end game" is usually thought about at the very end (and that's mainly due to pressure to release the game -- which is why there's so many issues with balancing, too).
MMOs aren't designed like offline games, that is interested in franchising a title. They depend on monthly subscriptions as their franchising, so the bait and switch marketing is the game of the day. Worse, requiring to buy a CD and THEN asking you to pay for being basically a 24/7/356 beta tester.
It's no wonder why this genre isn't very large.
If MMO devs can't get 90% of the bugs gone in true beta testing, they really need delay the release, as nothing is worse than 10,000 gamers pissed off because of 10,000 bugs and advertizing it to 10,000 sites.
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