Actually there was another MMORPG which had no concept of "levels": Ryzom. Unfortunately this game more or less died due to management failures (imho).
Ryzom featured a skill-tree much like EvE. In contrast to EvE you had to perform specific abilities in order to increase your skill, like healing others in order to get a higher healing skill. From a roleplaying point of view it makes sense imho. Because the more you practice on something the better you get. Well, typically ;-).
I think what people strikes most is that leveling serves no other purpose than a time sink. If leveling was part of the journey and leveling was an equal part of the game people probably wouldn't mind leveling so much? As it is now, however, leveling is only a barrier which keeps you away from the real game, the endgame. Most companies only focus on endgame content, leaving "old content" untouched. Especially after leveling your third character leveling becomes a burden. Yet it might not be the concept of levels itself, but the way it is implemented and presented.
Leveling as a progression system is an archaic system, but the real question is... Can the RPG genre survive without it?
Well, considering that a lot of pen-and-paper RPGs did quite well without levelling (I still think GURPS would be THE perfect RPG system for a true MMO - its ripoff was used in Fallout), that online FPSs do quite well (to say the least) without levelling, that there are EvE and GW out there doing just fine without it... not to mention that the first graphical MMO called Ultima Online had no levels and classess...
The EQ D&D class-and-level system we now unfortunately take for granted is an abberation, an atavistic throwback to the primitive primordial age of RPGs. It was done that way because the devs made a linear single-player scripted thing like D&D modules that had a multiplayer capability. Levels work quite well in single player linear games with "endgame"- in persistent social worlds "endgames" and levels that imply them just don't make any sense. Do you see an "endgame" in Facebook? I say that right now Facebook has better core design concepts for a MMO than any other product out there except EvE online.
Yea, I'd say RPG genre and especially MMORPGs can survive without the damn leveling.
I don't agree with teh OP at all. Leveling is character development. You can call it grinding, farming, faction rep, skillups, or leveling. They are all character development. So what if you have 50 levels, and it takes an esitmated 6 months to get to. Is that any different than if you needed to gain skills like in Oblivion, or farm for plat for 6 months?
MMOs aren't single player games. They should not take 2-4 weeks to reach the end. They are ever evolving worlds where people come to face challenges that can't be found in single player games.
The OP is asking for a game that he can enter, and be on top within days. How is that challenging?
2-4 weeks to max out or reach the so called endgame? That's pathetically sad but unfortunately what most of the new releases are offering, a dummied down simple game. I think a quality MMOG should take 6 months for a no lifer living in his parents basement playing 24/7 to max out and reach the so called endgame. Then it would take a year or two for regular semi casual players to do the same which would be great for me. The fun is in the journey.
I prefer a pure skill based system but when someone complains about the progression of leveling in a class system, I don't see how they would tolerate maxing each individual skill which can take more effort.
2-4 weeks to max out or reach the so called endgame? That's pathetically sad but unfortunately what most of the new releases are offering, a dummied down simple game. I think a quality MMOG should take 6 months for a no lifer living in his parents basement playing 24/7 to max out and reach the so called endgame. Then it would take a year or two for regular semi casual players to do the same which would be great for me. The fun is in the journey.
The journey would only be fun if it was considered to be an important aspect of the game, though. I cannot speak for all those MMORPGs out there. But in WoW level 1-69 is pretty much negligible because Blizzard focuses on "endgame" only. Heck, they even reduced the leveling time by reducing the amount of XP required per level.
Then again if you read accross the forums people are so used to the "endgame" they do not care about the journey at all. It's all about getting to max level in order to get access to the "endgame". So many players do not care about the quests, about the landscape. It's all about max speed leveling, followed by raiding. Oh well.
Lvling = hampster on a wheel, chasing a yellow, red, green or blue bar. Its kinda of funny that in all these lvl based games it's a must that every players gets like 10 toon slots. The reason being that the devs know that the more linear and class based the game is the easier it is to add in the mechanic of a lvl based system.
They also know that the more lvl that a player has to obtain the longer they can keep that player creating differant toons and playing. This type of thinking though can backfire in the long run, because having to do the same quests over and over on a differant toon gets boring and repetative.
No wonder people these days jump from one game to the next. They have no attachments to their online persona and couldn't care less if a deletion was to happen. Classed based linear games equal lvling and being the same as everyone else. Open sandbox games with a skill system equals having one toon that can be created, molded and made in however way you can imagine.
"If you won't play GW or EVE then you're SOL. Simple as that."
I never said I won't play Eve at all. In fact once I get my ass moved into a place with internet again I will more than likely play Eve again. But whether I not I will play Eve again is outside the scope of what I am saying about leveling in mmos.
I'd rather have EQ slow leveling grind than Eve skill system where its x amount of time, and no matter how much time you log to the game you can't speed it up. IMO Eve's skill system, while architected well, sucks as far as not being able to keep me interested in it. I like PvP and all, but I also like some sense of character growth through actions I control.
Regardless of whether or not the majority of MMOers feel the journey to end game is content or not is moot. It is definitely content, but for the only reason I can think of being competative reasons, you don't find it fun. The funny thing is I think you hate it because you feel some need to rush through it to somehow 'keep up with the joneses' if you will. Why? Who cares who gets the server firsts. It doesn't change anything.
Lastly, grinding through raid zones over and over for gear progression is a lot like leveling. There's an end. Why is the raiding fun if the road to max level isn't? Could part of it be because devs have made it so easy nowdays? It used to actually be a challenge in and of itself. If it was challenging would you like it? If it was all group based would you like it? Sometimes I think the reason more and more people don't like the road to the 'end' is because the devs have nerfed the difficulty and group necessity of it all. It's like people asked for something, they got it, then they figured out they didn't like the results.
Slow down and smell the roses. People are so obsessed with speed in everything. Why are you in such a hurry? So I can make this thing that will make me faster. Why? So I can be faster. What will that help you with? It will help me more quickly build something to be even faster. Uh...ok.
In my opinion (myself included on this) people like raiding because it's so challenging...so if they just put more challenge into the road to max, wouldn't it be more fun?
nethervoid - Est. '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1 20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
Slow down and smell the roses. People are so obsessed with speed in everything. Why are you in such a hurry?
With subscription MMOs? It's due to $$$ it would cost to take it very slow. For the price of these subscriptions, a person can order 3 $50 games a year, instead. The added benefit is that buying 3 extra games helps developers develop more across the board. Not just give it to one company that usually doesn't listen to gamers anyway (and with gamers helping to promote healthy critiques, more so).
Leveling as a progression system is an archaic system, but the real question is... Can the RPG genre survive without it?
Well, considering that a lot of pen-and-paper RPGs did quite well without levelling (I still think GURPS would be THE perfect RPG system for a true MMO - its ripoff was used in Fallout), that online FPSs do quite well (to say the least) without levelling, that there are EvE and GW out there doing just fine without it... not to mention that the first graphical MMO called Ultima Online had no levels and classess...
The EQ D&D class-and-level system we now unfortunately take for granted is an abberation, an atavistic throwback to the primitive primordial age of RPGs. It was done that way because the devs made a linear single-player scripted thing like D&D modules that had a multiplayer capability. Levels work quite well in single player linear games with "endgame"- in persistent social worlds "endgames" and levels that imply them just don't make any sense. Do you see an "endgame" in Facebook? I say that right now Facebook has better core design concepts for a MMO than any other product out there except EvE online.
Yea, I'd say RPG genre and especially MMORPGs can survive without the damn leveling.
Thanks for the enlighenment of RPG past, but maybe i should've reworded my question to: could they survive financially in today's market without levels?
The same designers who started this genre are still the same ones running the show now, old dinosaurs that never became extinct. It's time for evolution to take hold and see some real next-gen innovation, not promised "next-gen" propaganda and hype.
I'd rather have EQ slow leveling grind than Eve skill system where its x amount of time, and no matter how much time you log to the game you can't speed it up. IMO Eve's skill system, while architected well, sucks as far as not being able to keep me interested in it. I like PvP and all, but I also like some sense of character growth through actions I control. Regardless of whether or not the majority of MMOers feel the journey to end game is content or not is moot. It is definitely content, but for the only reason I can think of being competative reasons, you don't find it fun. The funny thing is I think you hate it because you feel some need to rush through it to somehow 'keep up with the joneses' if you will. Why? Who cares who gets the server firsts. It doesn't change anything. Lastly, grinding through raid zones over and over for gear progression is a lot like leveling. There's an end. Why is the raiding fun if the road to max level isn't? Could part of it be because devs have made it so easy nowdays? It used to actually be a challenge in and of itself. If it was challenging would you like it? If it was all group based would you like it? Sometimes I think the reason more and more people don't like the road to the 'end' is because the devs have nerfed the difficulty and group necessity of it all. It's like people asked for something, they got it, then they figured out they didn't like the results. Slow down and smell the roses. People are so obsessed with speed in everything. Why are you in such a hurry? So I can make this thing that will make me faster. Why? So I can be faster. What will that help you with? It will help me more quickly build something to be even faster. Uh...ok. In my opinion (myself included on this) people like raiding because it's so challenging...so if they just put more challenge into the road to max, wouldn't it be more fun?
I think you are reading more into what I am saying than is actually there.
First, Eve is definitely not without its faults and sometimes its skill system does have it s problems but where the game does things incredibley well is in the fact that a newer player does not have to level by doing mind numbing running around quests just to level if the player does not want to. They just set a skill and go do whatever they wish. Now if that player wished to get into a battleship for instance then they will have to wait for the skills to train. I even already said it would be cool in Eve if you could just make your character with a ton of skillpoints to distribute however they wish so a new player could possibley be in a battleship with the skills to fly it if they wanted to. Whether or not they should when taking the rest of Eves game play mechanics into account is another issue all together and not really relevent.
Second as far as keeping up with the joneses goes. I am sure there are many people out there that feel this way but I can tell you that I really don't care about that. I don't feel the need to rush through, I just don't feel like I should be forced to go through the pointless leveling process which ends up meaning nothing when I do get to end game. Does it really matter to the game or story that I went out and killed 50 damn bears for some skins to give to some guy in the town ? Nope it doesn't. Id rather have that at end game with a capped character when maybe those bear skins get turned into an npc and when he gets enough of them from other players as well then that opens something in the world or any number of other possibilities. Kind of like how WoW did some of their events like the opening of AQ.
Third, grinding raid zones just for gear to move on to the next raid instance to me isn't much fun either. It's the main reason I stopped playing WoW (along with some other smaller issues) but raiding with 20 good friends is more fun than leveling on your own because you are at different stages of the process than your friends.
Believe me I don't care about the speed. If I was all into speed then I wouldn't have played Eve since beta :P
Ill throw out another WoW example here to illustrate my point a bit more. When Burning Crusade came out the Horde got palys as everyone knows, and of course every guild wanted palys since they were so useful and almost needed in some end game content. Now since I do enjoy playing a healer since I played a priest as my main I would have loved to have rolled a paly to play for my guild. But having been through the whole level grind 5 times already with previous toons I just didn't have it in me to go through STV or Desolace or any other zone one more time. Palys are boring enough to level as it is but to go through that and all the same content again was just too much to handle. Now if could have had a level 60 paly to start BC with a basic set of green gear ready to start in the Outlands to level to 70 and collect the gear needed to raid or pvp then I would have been happy to do that.
The only big downside to all this that I can see really is the scenario where everyone has a level capped toon of every class so people can just grab whichever too was needed but then again I was doing that already. "Oh we have plenty of healing but no tank, hold on ill log in my warrior." "Oh we got healing and tanking but need dps, let me grab my hunter or rogue or ill go respec my priest to shadow and grab his shadow gear out of the bank." And yes I have done those things. While the guild I was in was leveling and starting to work our way through Karazhan the healers we had on come raid time varied. Sometimes we only had 1 or 2 healers so I would go spec to heal and other times we had 3 healers so I went and specced to shadow. My respec bills for a while were stupid.
Wow this got way off topic and long, sorry about that but thanks for the input on this so far guys, keep it coming
Originally posted by nethervoid Slow down and smell the roses. People are so obsessed with speed in everything. Why are you in such a hurry? So I can make this thing that will make me faster. Why? So I can be faster. What will that help you with? It will help me more quickly build something to be even faster. Uh...ok.
I used to "slow play" my games. Back when I was in SWG (2003-2005), I used to spend time roleplaying or doing missions at my own pace. It was more important for me to enjoy the time I was there, and keep "in character," than to do the "hologrind." I felt that all the "rush to Jedi" really made the game sour, and I did my part to make the gameworld better by slow playing it.
I, like you, thought there was no real benefit to being in "such a hurry." To me, there was plenty of time to do the "grind to Jedi," so I took professions I wanted to do. There was plenty of time to do the "grind to master smuggler," so I did a lot of roleplay immersive functions, like parties, instead of just grind. There would always be time to do the "grind to master musician," so I made sure I was ATK, and never AFK performed just so I could level faster.
But you see Nethervoid, hindsight being 20/20, I really lost out on a lot of content and experiences that the other players had, simply because I wanted to slow play. Jedi rules got changed, changed again, and the game got totally smashed up into something stupid before I ever got a chance to do all the things I wanted to eventually do. It made me regret that I didn't grind out holos like everyone else, or go AFK, or go to all those roleplay functions.
See, the reason everyone tries to do everything so quickly is because nobody can ever be sure that the opportunities will be available tomorrow. Advancement gets nerfed, classes get nerfed, content gets nerfed, the game closes down, and the games get unplayable because the devs are constantly trying to nerf the "speed players."
The problem is that it's never the "speed players" that are harmed when they make advancement more difficult. It's the "slow players," roleplayers, and mindful players that get hurt. Players like me. Part of the reason I dropped out of MMOs is because I always seemed to be swimming against the tide of nerfs, shutdowns, rebalances, and wholesale redesigns. That's because I always prefered to be the one who roleplays, or helps the n00bs and others regardless of guild.
Turns out, that's a really stupid way to play. Better to go powergaming with your guild, hit the Teamspeak, rush through the levelling by any means necessary, consume content ASAP, and become PvP ub0rz to gloat on the boards. Those are the only ones who seem to be enjoying themselves long term, because those are the only ones that seem to get everything out of their experience by game's end.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I don't think that most people powerlevel through the content as fast as possible to be uber or anything. Though I am sure that there are people who do, I believe most people do it just because they know that at level cap is where the real game begins in most mmos out there right now.
There is nothing wrong with taking your time and enjoying the gameworld around you and doing things other than leveling but wouldn't it be a lot cooler if were already capped and you were then free to explore and enjoy the world without ever feeling left behind just because you want to play slow ?
Imagine if in WoW (yes i know another WoW example, but its so easy ). Anyways imagine if Blizz just made the game where everyone picked their class and was given their toon with talents free to distribute and then go raid, pvp, explore or do whatever they wanted. Now instead of Blizz spending a whole lot of time and money designing and testing all those zones that you only see for a short time while doing the quests there, or those instances you only run through once or twice to get some quest done. What if all that time and energy was put into making those zones filled with stuff to actually do in an 'end game' scenario ? What if that time was put into making WoWs pvp something meaningful instead of simple bg honor grinding ? What if Blizz actually put time into a crafting system that didn't just totally suck ? See, all that time put into content that is either just passed over and never even seen or only seen once or twice because it was pointless to spend more time there could be so much better spent.
Originally posted by nethervoid Slow down and smell the roses. People are so obsessed with speed in everything. Why are you in such a hurry? So I can make this thing that will make me faster. Why? So I can be faster. What will that help you with? It will help me more quickly build something to be even faster. Uh...ok.
I used to "slow play" my games. Back when I was in SWG (2003-2005), I used to spend time roleplaying or doing missions at my own pace. It was more important for me to enjoy the time I was there, and keep "in character," than to do the "hologrind." I felt that all the "rush to Jedi" really made the game sour, and I did my part to make the gameworld better by slow playing it.
I, like you, thought there was no real benefit to being in "such a hurry." To me, there was plenty of time to do the "grind to Jedi," so I took professions I wanted to do. There was plenty of time to do the "grind to master smuggler," so I did a lot of roleplay immersive functions, like parties, instead of just grind. There would always be time to do the "grind to master musician," so I made sure I was ATK, and never AFK performed just so I could level faster.
But you see Nethervoid, hindsight being 20/20, I really lost out on a lot of content and experiences that the other players had, simply because I wanted to slow play. Jedi rules got changed, changed again, and the game got totally smashed up into something stupid before I ever got a chance to do all the things I wanted to eventually do. It made me regret that I didn't grind out holos like everyone else, or go AFK, or go to all those roleplay functions.
See, the reason everyone tries to do everything so quickly is because nobody can ever be sure that the opportunities will be available tomorrow. Advancement gets nerfed, classes get nerfed, content gets nerfed, the game closes down, and the games get unplayable because the devs are constantly trying to nerf the "speed players."
The problem is that it's never the "speed players" that are harmed when they make advancement more difficult. It's the "slow players," roleplayers, and mindful players that get hurt. Players like me. Part of the reason I dropped out of MMOs is because I always seemed to be swimming against the tide of nerfs, shutdowns, rebalances, and wholesale redesigns. That's because I always prefered to be the one who roleplays, or helps the n00bs and others regardless of guild.
Turns out, that's a really stupid way to play. Better to go powergaming with your guild, hit the Teamspeak, rush through the levelling by any means necessary, consume content ASAP, and become PvP ub0rz to gloat on the boards. Those are the only ones who seem to be enjoying themselves long term, because those are the only ones that seem to get everything out of their experience by game's end.
Sounds like you got jipped by SWG actually. That's probably the only game I would say yeah you have a point. But if you look at WoW, things just get easier as time goes on in that game. Everything gets buffed, so a slow goer would actually have a benefit over a powergamer.
So not really trying to argue with ya, but I think you're logic is flawed. Most games don't get worse as they age. Slow going is still the best way to get more fun out of a game, IMO. ... Now I have to caveat that with the need for challenging content along the way, which most new games fail horribly to offer. Lots of pre-max group content in EQ was amazingly difficult, which then also made it fun to try and beat. Since leaving EQ I can't think of a single game that has had seriously difficult pre-max group content. So yeah if there's no challenge to the pre-max content, no wonder it's dull. Still though there's something about finding new awe-inspiring places, again something newer games fail at for the most part. There's not a lot of 'off the beaten path' stuff out there. Vanguard has a lot, though, for we who appreciate it. Eve could have a LOT of it with their large universe, but they choose to focus almost solely on the empire-pvp stuff, which is fine, but man it could be so so much more. =/
Wow that probably should have been a couple of paragraphs. lol
nethervoid - Est. '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1 20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
Leveling systems are nothing more than forced progression and restriction on your character. Adventure zones and dungeons give proof of this.
Adventure zone A = 1-20
Adventure zone B = 21-40
and so on.
Why can't i just go to B when i enter the world? Why am i forced to go through A first?
Once i'm done with A, why should i ever go back there?
Instead of devs wasting time on zone A and improving it for the future, they create zone C, and zone D, and so on by creating artificial barriers. Bilbo, Gandalf, and the Dwarven 13 (sounds like a band) didn't have to level to see Smaug, they progressed by adventuring, questing, and finding weapons and the one ring, etc.
If i go to Dungeon B (Smaug?!) when i first enter the game, will i get my face smashed in? Maybe. But at least it will give me incentive to gear up and acquire more skills and spells. But most importantly, it doesn't restrict me from seeing that content.
i see people saying 'end game' or 'game play' as the thing they want, but has anyone actually any idea what endgame and gameplay should be? its easy to say i grinded <blah> and there was no endgame thus this game sucks but actually when it boils down to it i've yet to see any new or interesting idea outside of the games we have on the market (which have been dissed so endlessly for endgame content) providing any good idea about what end game should be.
it'd be just as easy to have a completely level free game, no levels at all, just a ffa with loads of skills, but it won't hold the players because everything is handed to them immediately, and people love one upmanship - without that pvp (common endgame) is nowt.
This isn't about what equates to good end game game play, it's about how you actually get to it. Now once you do get to it then it has to be done well to hold a players interest. Good end game content could either be WoWs raid system which is great if you really love raiding or Eves pvp system if that is what you are after. WoW without raiding or Eve without pvp would make both of those games complete shit and no one would play either of them.
Again though this isn't about what make great end game game play but instead about the whole idea of forcing people though the level grind just to get to start the end game content where most people spend most of their time anyways.
Regarding slow leveling I'd like to add that it can hurt to see your ingame friends leveling away. And while you struggle at lower levels they're full into endgame. And by the time you hit the level cap they either have moved on to much higher and harder content or quit the game because of boredom. The good thing about EvE is, that even fresh players can be useful, for example as a spy or tackler. When I started with EvE I helped as a spy or tackler more than often, and it was fun. Because I could add something to the team.
Leveling as a progression system is an archaic system, but the real question is... Can the RPG genre survive without it?
Well, considering that a lot of pen-and-paper RPGs did quite well without levelling (I still think GURPS would be THE perfect RPG system for a true MMO - its ripoff was used in Fallout), that online FPSs do quite well (to say the least) without levelling, that there are EvE and GW out there doing just fine without it... not to mention that the first graphical MMO called Ultima Online had no levels and classess...
The EQ D&D class-and-level system we now unfortunately take for granted is an abberation, an atavistic throwback to the primitive primordial age of RPGs. It was done that way because the devs made a linear single-player scripted thing like D&D modules that had a multiplayer capability. Levels work quite well in single player linear games with "endgame"- in persistent social worlds "endgames" and levels that imply them just don't make any sense. Do you see an "endgame" in Facebook? I say that right now Facebook has better core design concepts for a MMO than any other product out there except EvE online.
Yea, I'd say RPG genre and especially MMORPGs can survive without the damn leveling.
Thanks for the enlighenment of RPG past, but maybe i should've reworded my question to: could they survive financially in today's market without levels?
The same designers who started this genre are still the same ones running the show now, old dinosaurs that never became extinct. It's time for evolution to take hold and see some real next-gen innovation, not promised "next-gen" propaganda and hype.
Sorry for the reflex reaction there. Didn't mean to be preachy.
The designers are dinosaurs tbh, but so are the players. It is amazing how many kids are out there who think that the very definition of a RPG is leveling... If you don't level your class then it's not a RPG. That D&D/EQ poison has damaged a whole generation. Imo future games that want to break the mold should do it in stages without breaking too many conventions that have sadly became so ingrown. The other consideration is that classes and levels do have some real advantages for players:
The first one is clear achievement meter and the second is the recognition factor. Players love "dings" and they can instantly recognize what a "Paladin 14" is.
However we can turn this thing around and make a game system which isn't based on levels and classes but which still retains the above features.
Here is one example:
1) you collect and improve individual skills (like GW or UO)
2) there are no XP points (at least no single xp. we can have xp for each skill for example)
3) your character "level" is calculated based on the number and/or levels of your skills. You get your dings and the number can be seen by other players.
4) your character "class" is determined by your max skills. For example if your max skills are Ranged and Traps you are a "Hunter". If your max skills are Melee and Pets then you are a "Beast Warrior"... etc
So here you have a skill-based system with classes and levels.
With right presentation it can be as rewarding (if not much more so) than your run-on-the mill watch-your-xp-bar fill up system. You can have displays like "3 more skills to Lvl 20!" or you could set up goals for yourself to display "4 more ranks till Beast Master!" etc...
I won't go so far as to say I fully agree with the OP, I do agree up to a point, the leveling mechanism that is so prevelant in today's MMOs is excessive, and because of how excessive it is, it is IMO a cheap tactic to hide the corperate agenda, to keep you paying to play. I understand this need....up to a point. The thing that annoys me after a while is to the extent they do this. I've played most but not all MMOs, including UO, and the formula of 50+ levels to wade through is IMO excessive. WoW for example now has 80 levels to look forward to and yet the Devs think that their game is so great that all new accounts should trudge through now 70 levels of grinding before getting to anything resembling the "fun stuff". EQII has now what, 70 levels as well? And the Devs like Kaplan from WoW brag that th formula can go on indefinitely. Oh yes, that sounds like fun, sorta on par with a root canal and no drugs and by a dentist who's all thumbs.
Levels used to pace the game play is ok, so long as it tops out at around 20 levels or so. As an example, I loved the Neverwinter Nights game, both 1 & 2, it had 20 levels which I felt was plenty, and I wished DDO had been a lot more like NWN than what it turned out to be. The thing that makes the level grind so annoying is that after you've done it in a couple of games, you see it for what it is, a empty time sink meant to keep you playing, rather than a sandbox you're growing into.
That's what the original UO did so well, it was a sandbox, but ever since EQ came along with its raid philosophy and ad naseum leveling mechanism and loot fixation, MMOs have all followed like lemmings. Sadly for me, I like WoW the most so far, whom I feel is the worst offender of this trend, and with its fixation of the gear grind, it makes the leveling grind even worse. Why do I like WoW the most despite being the worst offender? Mostly for the PvP side of it, though Im' burning out on the whole grind it slaps you with, and sadly for other games, that burn out is going to carry over.
I think this is where most Devs these days drop the ball, they don't understand or clue into the fact that their player base has been there and done that with regards to leveling and after having beaten the treadmill to death in one game, they're less tolerant for it in a new game. Players are craving (as a whole I'd say) more sandbox elements, it doesn't have to exhaustive, but the more customization that players can bring to not only their characters but also their envoirnment the more vitality the game is going to have.
If for a example, a game only had 20 levels to it, and it took you 2 weeks of steady game play to hit those 20 levels and in that process, you develop your character's skill set and abilities and gain proficiency in their use as you level, then you get to affect the virtual world around you by changing the landscape, participating in telling battles that changes the political situation and placement of npcs, staving off rampaging npc invasions (or other player invasions) resources, etc, those 20 levels are plenty of character stat development, its the content of immersion and involvement in the game world at the end that people will cherish as the true character development, and the leveling process itself will not be the chore that it would be if there are 80 or some other stupid number to wade through first.
Unfortunately, Devs will continue to create games in the treadmill fashion until such a time as such games fail often enough to pull the plug on them and corps look at the method and say "Nope, that's a level treadmill design, it s days are over and done, come up with something better."
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
I absolutely LOVE Eve Online for it's lack of levelling - the real-time training is novel, and more importantly it works, which is why the munchkins hate it so much. I've seen many posts and chat comments from new players that are horrified that they can't be flying one of the really big/complex ships for several weeks (or even months, theoretically) even though their buddy gave them a ton of cash when they joined the game
Originally posted by markoraos Sorry for the reflex reaction there. Didn't mean to be preachy.
It wasn't preachy, but informative for those who never got to play them.
This discussion is great, but alas, it's been done to death and has plagued MMOs since the beginning. Every year goes by and another level based system comes out, with exceptions like EVE.
You and a lot of other people! Join the club. However, it won't happen. WoW was a blessing and a cancer to MMOs. Although it wasn't the first for leveling, it made leveling such a popular formula that most makers will continue to use it instead of rolling the dice with a skill based MMO. Skill based is a lot of fun, look at orginal UO or orginal SWG. That is why Darkfall and Mortal Online have such big followings even though they have little to show for their existence. We are desperately graving a skill based game with more freedom in your character. I just don't see it happening anytime soon.
There is something that will allow you to start in the end game for nearly any mmo..
It's called EBAY, you can buy fully equiped high level characters for most main stream mmo's.
There is no point in playing an game (especially mmo's) if theres no way to advance.. don't come up with the comment like "you can work for gear" or something like that because that is pretty much exactly the same as leveling.
And leveling in an new mmo is usually fun because you get to see new areas and monsters do new quests (try to actually read the quest instead of scanning the text for what you need to get/kill) I do agree doing quests should have some sort of impact on the game world. Not fun enough to keep leveling? Play something else the game is not worth the time if its no fun.
Originally posted by Saito^ There is no point in playing an game (especially mmo's) if theres no way to advance..
ROFL
Roleplaying Games should be about Roleplaying = playing a character in a different world than real life. Not about "progression". There are lots of pen&paper RPGS out there, with no or very limited character progression, and they are the most fun.
Originally posted by Saito^ And leveling in an new mmo is usually fun because you get to see new areas and monsters do new quests
Seriously, why does levels have anything to do with that?...
I'm sorry to tell you, but you've been brainwashed by mainstream MMOs, RPGs and/or Pen&Paper RPGs, which follow the D&D principles which suck.
Comments
Actually there was another MMORPG which had no concept of "levels": Ryzom. Unfortunately this game more or less died due to management failures (imho).
Ryzom featured a skill-tree much like EvE. In contrast to EvE you had to perform specific abilities in order to increase your skill, like healing others in order to get a higher healing skill. From a roleplaying point of view it makes sense imho. Because the more you practice on something the better you get. Well, typically ;-).
I think what people strikes most is that leveling serves no other purpose than a time sink. If leveling was part of the journey and leveling was an equal part of the game people probably wouldn't mind leveling so much? As it is now, however, leveling is only a barrier which keeps you away from the real game, the endgame. Most companies only focus on endgame content, leaving "old content" untouched. Especially after leveling your third character leveling becomes a burden. Yet it might not be the concept of levels itself, but the way it is implemented and presented.
Well, considering that a lot of pen-and-paper RPGs did quite well without levelling (I still think GURPS would be THE perfect RPG system for a true MMO - its ripoff was used in Fallout), that online FPSs do quite well (to say the least) without levelling, that there are EvE and GW out there doing just fine without it... not to mention that the first graphical MMO called Ultima Online had no levels and classess...
The EQ D&D class-and-level system we now unfortunately take for granted is an abberation, an atavistic throwback to the primitive primordial age of RPGs. It was done that way because the devs made a linear single-player scripted thing like D&D modules that had a multiplayer capability. Levels work quite well in single player linear games with "endgame"- in persistent social worlds "endgames" and levels that imply them just don't make any sense. Do you see an "endgame" in Facebook? I say that right now Facebook has better core design concepts for a MMO than any other product out there except EvE online.
Yea, I'd say RPG genre and especially MMORPGs can survive without the damn leveling.
I prefer a pure skill based system but when someone complains about the progression of leveling in a class system, I don't see how they would tolerate maxing each individual skill which can take more effort.
The journey would only be fun if it was considered to be an important aspect of the game, though. I cannot speak for all those MMORPGs out there. But in WoW level 1-69 is pretty much negligible because Blizzard focuses on "endgame" only. Heck, they even reduced the leveling time by reducing the amount of XP required per level.
Then again if you read accross the forums people are so used to the "endgame" they do not care about the journey at all. It's all about getting to max level in order to get access to the "endgame". So many players do not care about the quests, about the landscape. It's all about max speed leveling, followed by raiding. Oh well.
Lvling = hampster on a wheel, chasing a yellow, red, green or blue bar. Its kinda of funny that in all these lvl based games it's a must that every players gets like 10 toon slots. The reason being that the devs know that the more linear and class based the game is the easier it is to add in the mechanic of a lvl based system.
They also know that the more lvl that a player has to obtain the longer they can keep that player creating differant toons and playing. This type of thinking though can backfire in the long run, because having to do the same quests over and over on a differant toon gets boring and repetative.
No wonder people these days jump from one game to the next. They have no attachments to their online persona and couldn't care less if a deletion was to happen. Classed based linear games equal lvling and being the same as everyone else. Open sandbox games with a skill system equals having one toon that can be created, molded and made in however way you can imagine.
"If you won't play GW or EVE then you're SOL. Simple as that."
I never said I won't play Eve at all. In fact once I get my ass moved into a place with internet again I will more than likely play Eve again. But whether I not I will play Eve again is outside the scope of what I am saying about leveling in mmos.
I'd rather have EQ slow leveling grind than Eve skill system where its x amount of time, and no matter how much time you log to the game you can't speed it up. IMO Eve's skill system, while architected well, sucks as far as not being able to keep me interested in it. I like PvP and all, but I also like some sense of character growth through actions I control.
Regardless of whether or not the majority of MMOers feel the journey to end game is content or not is moot. It is definitely content, but for the only reason I can think of being competative reasons, you don't find it fun. The funny thing is I think you hate it because you feel some need to rush through it to somehow 'keep up with the joneses' if you will. Why? Who cares who gets the server firsts. It doesn't change anything.
Lastly, grinding through raid zones over and over for gear progression is a lot like leveling. There's an end. Why is the raiding fun if the road to max level isn't? Could part of it be because devs have made it so easy nowdays? It used to actually be a challenge in and of itself. If it was challenging would you like it? If it was all group based would you like it? Sometimes I think the reason more and more people don't like the road to the 'end' is because the devs have nerfed the difficulty and group necessity of it all. It's like people asked for something, they got it, then they figured out they didn't like the results.
Slow down and smell the roses. People are so obsessed with speed in everything. Why are you in such a hurry? So I can make this thing that will make me faster. Why? So I can be faster. What will that help you with? It will help me more quickly build something to be even faster. Uh...ok.
In my opinion (myself included on this) people like raiding because it's so challenging...so if they just put more challenge into the road to max, wouldn't it be more fun?
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
With subscription MMOs? It's due to $$$ it would cost to take it very slow. For the price of these subscriptions, a person can order 3 $50 games a year, instead. The added benefit is that buying 3 extra games helps developers develop more across the board. Not just give it to one company that usually doesn't listen to gamers anyway (and with gamers helping to promote healthy critiques, more so).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
skill based for the win! wooo! woooo!
darkfall or mortal online... be our savior, either one...
Well, considering that a lot of pen-and-paper RPGs did quite well without levelling (I still think GURPS would be THE perfect RPG system for a true MMO - its ripoff was used in Fallout), that online FPSs do quite well (to say the least) without levelling, that there are EvE and GW out there doing just fine without it... not to mention that the first graphical MMO called Ultima Online had no levels and classess...
The EQ D&D class-and-level system we now unfortunately take for granted is an abberation, an atavistic throwback to the primitive primordial age of RPGs. It was done that way because the devs made a linear single-player scripted thing like D&D modules that had a multiplayer capability. Levels work quite well in single player linear games with "endgame"- in persistent social worlds "endgames" and levels that imply them just don't make any sense. Do you see an "endgame" in Facebook? I say that right now Facebook has better core design concepts for a MMO than any other product out there except EvE online.
Yea, I'd say RPG genre and especially MMORPGs can survive without the damn leveling.
Thanks for the enlighenment of RPG past, but maybe i should've reworded my question to: could they survive financially in today's market without levels?
The same designers who started this genre are still the same ones running the show now, old dinosaurs that never became extinct. It's time for evolution to take hold and see some real next-gen innovation, not promised "next-gen" propaganda and hype.
I think you are reading more into what I am saying than is actually there.
First, Eve is definitely not without its faults and sometimes its skill system does have it s problems but where the game does things incredibley well is in the fact that a newer player does not have to level by doing mind numbing running around quests just to level if the player does not want to. They just set a skill and go do whatever they wish. Now if that player wished to get into a battleship for instance then they will have to wait for the skills to train. I even already said it would be cool in Eve if you could just make your character with a ton of skillpoints to distribute however they wish so a new player could possibley be in a battleship with the skills to fly it if they wanted to. Whether or not they should when taking the rest of Eves game play mechanics into account is another issue all together and not really relevent.
Second as far as keeping up with the joneses goes. I am sure there are many people out there that feel this way but I can tell you that I really don't care about that. I don't feel the need to rush through, I just don't feel like I should be forced to go through the pointless leveling process which ends up meaning nothing when I do get to end game. Does it really matter to the game or story that I went out and killed 50 damn bears for some skins to give to some guy in the town ? Nope it doesn't. Id rather have that at end game with a capped character when maybe those bear skins get turned into an npc and when he gets enough of them from other players as well then that opens something in the world or any number of other possibilities. Kind of like how WoW did some of their events like the opening of AQ.
Third, grinding raid zones just for gear to move on to the next raid instance to me isn't much fun either. It's the main reason I stopped playing WoW (along with some other smaller issues) but raiding with 20 good friends is more fun than leveling on your own because you are at different stages of the process than your friends.
Believe me I don't care about the speed. If I was all into speed then I wouldn't have played Eve since beta :P
Ill throw out another WoW example here to illustrate my point a bit more. When Burning Crusade came out the Horde got palys as everyone knows, and of course every guild wanted palys since they were so useful and almost needed in some end game content. Now since I do enjoy playing a healer since I played a priest as my main I would have loved to have rolled a paly to play for my guild. But having been through the whole level grind 5 times already with previous toons I just didn't have it in me to go through STV or Desolace or any other zone one more time. Palys are boring enough to level as it is but to go through that and all the same content again was just too much to handle. Now if could have had a level 60 paly to start BC with a basic set of green gear ready to start in the Outlands to level to 70 and collect the gear needed to raid or pvp then I would have been happy to do that.
The only big downside to all this that I can see really is the scenario where everyone has a level capped toon of every class so people can just grab whichever too was needed but then again I was doing that already. "Oh we have plenty of healing but no tank, hold on ill log in my warrior." "Oh we got healing and tanking but need dps, let me grab my hunter or rogue or ill go respec my priest to shadow and grab his shadow gear out of the bank." And yes I have done those things. While the guild I was in was leveling and starting to work our way through Karazhan the healers we had on come raid time varied. Sometimes we only had 1 or 2 healers so I would go spec to heal and other times we had 3 healers so I went and specced to shadow. My respec bills for a while were stupid.
Wow this got way off topic and long, sorry about that but thanks for the input on this so far guys, keep it coming
I, like you, thought there was no real benefit to being in "such a hurry." To me, there was plenty of time to do the "grind to Jedi," so I took professions I wanted to do. There was plenty of time to do the "grind to master smuggler," so I did a lot of roleplay immersive functions, like parties, instead of just grind. There would always be time to do the "grind to master musician," so I made sure I was ATK, and never AFK performed just so I could level faster.
But you see Nethervoid, hindsight being 20/20, I really lost out on a lot of content and experiences that the other players had, simply because I wanted to slow play. Jedi rules got changed, changed again, and the game got totally smashed up into something stupid before I ever got a chance to do all the things I wanted to eventually do. It made me regret that I didn't grind out holos like everyone else, or go AFK, or go to all those roleplay functions.
See, the reason everyone tries to do everything so quickly is because nobody can ever be sure that the opportunities will be available tomorrow. Advancement gets nerfed, classes get nerfed, content gets nerfed, the game closes down, and the games get unplayable because the devs are constantly trying to nerf the "speed players."
The problem is that it's never the "speed players" that are harmed when they make advancement more difficult. It's the "slow players," roleplayers, and mindful players that get hurt. Players like me. Part of the reason I dropped out of MMOs is because I always seemed to be swimming against the tide of nerfs, shutdowns, rebalances, and wholesale redesigns. That's because I always prefered to be the one who roleplays, or helps the n00bs and others regardless of guild.
Turns out, that's a really stupid way to play. Better to go powergaming with your guild, hit the Teamspeak, rush through the levelling by any means necessary, consume content ASAP, and become PvP ub0rz to gloat on the boards. Those are the only ones who seem to be enjoying themselves long term, because those are the only ones that seem to get everything out of their experience by game's end.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I don't think that most people powerlevel through the content as fast as possible to be uber or anything. Though I am sure that there are people who do, I believe most people do it just because they know that at level cap is where the real game begins in most mmos out there right now.
There is nothing wrong with taking your time and enjoying the gameworld around you and doing things other than leveling but wouldn't it be a lot cooler if were already capped and you were then free to explore and enjoy the world without ever feeling left behind just because you want to play slow ?
Imagine if in WoW (yes i know another WoW example, but its so easy
). Anyways imagine if Blizz just made the game where everyone picked their class and was given their toon with talents free to distribute and then go raid, pvp, explore or do whatever they wanted. Now instead of Blizz spending a whole lot of time and money designing and testing all those zones that you only see for a short time while doing the quests there, or those instances you only run through once or twice to get some quest done. What if all that time and energy was put into making those zones filled with stuff to actually do in an 'end game' scenario ? What if that time was put into making WoWs pvp something meaningful instead of simple bg honor grinding ? What if Blizz actually put time into a crafting system that didn't just totally suck ? See, all that time put into content that is either just passed over and never even seen or only seen once or twice because it was pointless to spend more time there could be so much better spent.
I used to "slow play" my games. Back when I was in SWG (2003-2005), I used to spend time roleplaying or doing missions at my own pace. It was more important for me to enjoy the time I was there, and keep "in character," than to do the "hologrind." I felt that all the "rush to Jedi" really made the game sour, and I did my part to make the gameworld better by slow playing it.I, like you, thought there was no real benefit to being in "such a hurry." To me, there was plenty of time to do the "grind to Jedi," so I took professions I wanted to do. There was plenty of time to do the "grind to master smuggler," so I did a lot of roleplay immersive functions, like parties, instead of just grind. There would always be time to do the "grind to master musician," so I made sure I was ATK, and never AFK performed just so I could level faster.
But you see Nethervoid, hindsight being 20/20, I really lost out on a lot of content and experiences that the other players had, simply because I wanted to slow play. Jedi rules got changed, changed again, and the game got totally smashed up into something stupid before I ever got a chance to do all the things I wanted to eventually do. It made me regret that I didn't grind out holos like everyone else, or go AFK, or go to all those roleplay functions.
See, the reason everyone tries to do everything so quickly is because nobody can ever be sure that the opportunities will be available tomorrow. Advancement gets nerfed, classes get nerfed, content gets nerfed, the game closes down, and the games get unplayable because the devs are constantly trying to nerf the "speed players."
The problem is that it's never the "speed players" that are harmed when they make advancement more difficult. It's the "slow players," roleplayers, and mindful players that get hurt. Players like me. Part of the reason I dropped out of MMOs is because I always seemed to be swimming against the tide of nerfs, shutdowns, rebalances, and wholesale redesigns. That's because I always prefered to be the one who roleplays, or helps the n00bs and others regardless of guild.
Turns out, that's a really stupid way to play. Better to go powergaming with your guild, hit the Teamspeak, rush through the levelling by any means necessary, consume content ASAP, and become PvP ub0rz to gloat on the boards. Those are the only ones who seem to be enjoying themselves long term, because those are the only ones that seem to get everything out of their experience by game's end.
Sounds like you got jipped by SWG actually. That's probably the only game I would say yeah you have a point. But if you look at WoW, things just get easier as time goes on in that game. Everything gets buffed, so a slow goer would actually have a benefit over a powergamer.So not really trying to argue with ya, but I think you're logic is flawed. Most games don't get worse as they age. Slow going is still the best way to get more fun out of a game, IMO. ... Now I have to caveat that with the need for challenging content along the way, which most new games fail horribly to offer. Lots of pre-max group content in EQ was amazingly difficult, which then also made it fun to try and beat. Since leaving EQ I can't think of a single game that has had seriously difficult pre-max group content. So yeah if there's no challenge to the pre-max content, no wonder it's dull. Still though there's something about finding new awe-inspiring places, again something newer games fail at for the most part. There's not a lot of 'off the beaten path' stuff out there. Vanguard has a lot, though, for we who appreciate it. Eve could have a LOT of it with their large universe, but they choose to focus almost solely on the empire-pvp stuff, which is fine, but man it could be so so much more. =/
Wow that probably should have been a couple of paragraphs. lol
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
Leveling systems are nothing more than forced progression and restriction on your character. Adventure zones and dungeons give proof of this.
Why can't i just go to B when i enter the world? Why am i forced to go through A first?
Once i'm done with A, why should i ever go back there?
Instead of devs wasting time on zone A and improving it for the future, they create zone C, and zone D, and so on by creating artificial barriers. Bilbo, Gandalf, and the Dwarven 13 (sounds like a band
) didn't have to level to see Smaug, they progressed by adventuring, questing, and finding weapons and the one ring, etc.
If i go to Dungeon B (Smaug?!
) when i first enter the game, will i get my face smashed in? Maybe. But at least it will give me incentive to gear up and acquire more skills and spells. But most importantly, it doesn't restrict me from seeing that content.
i see people saying 'end game' or 'game play' as the thing they want, but has anyone actually any idea what endgame and gameplay should be? its easy to say i grinded <blah> and there was no endgame thus this game sucks but actually when it boils down to it i've yet to see any new or interesting idea outside of the games we have on the market (which have been dissed so endlessly for endgame content) providing any good idea about what end game should be.
it'd be just as easy to have a completely level free game, no levels at all, just a ffa with loads of skills, but it won't hold the players because everything is handed to them immediately, and people love one upmanship - without that pvp (common endgame) is nowt.
This isn't about what equates to good end game game play, it's about how you actually get to it. Now once you do get to it then it has to be done well to hold a players interest. Good end game content could either be WoWs raid system which is great if you really love raiding or Eves pvp system if that is what you are after. WoW without raiding or Eve without pvp would make both of those games complete shit and no one would play either of them.
Again though this isn't about what make great end game game play but instead about the whole idea of forcing people though the level grind just to get to start the end game content where most people spend most of their time anyways.
Well, considering that a lot of pen-and-paper RPGs did quite well without levelling (I still think GURPS would be THE perfect RPG system for a true MMO - its ripoff was used in Fallout), that online FPSs do quite well (to say the least) without levelling, that there are EvE and GW out there doing just fine without it... not to mention that the first graphical MMO called Ultima Online had no levels and classess...
The EQ D&D class-and-level system we now unfortunately take for granted is an abberation, an atavistic throwback to the primitive primordial age of RPGs. It was done that way because the devs made a linear single-player scripted thing like D&D modules that had a multiplayer capability. Levels work quite well in single player linear games with "endgame"- in persistent social worlds "endgames" and levels that imply them just don't make any sense. Do you see an "endgame" in Facebook? I say that right now Facebook has better core design concepts for a MMO than any other product out there except EvE online.
Yea, I'd say RPG genre and especially MMORPGs can survive without the damn leveling.
Thanks for the enlighenment of RPG past, but maybe i should've reworded my question to: could they survive financially in today's market without levels?
The same designers who started this genre are still the same ones running the show now, old dinosaurs that never became extinct. It's time for evolution to take hold and see some real next-gen innovation, not promised "next-gen" propaganda and hype.
Sorry for the reflex reaction there.
Didn't mean to be preachy.
The designers are dinosaurs tbh, but so are the players. It is amazing how many kids are out there who think that the very definition of a RPG is leveling... If you don't level your class then it's not a RPG. That D&D/EQ poison has damaged a whole generation. Imo future games that want to break the mold should do it in stages without breaking too many conventions that have sadly became so ingrown. The other consideration is that classes and levels do have some real advantages for players:
The first one is clear achievement meter and the second is the recognition factor. Players love "dings" and they can instantly recognize what a "Paladin 14" is.
However we can turn this thing around and make a game system which isn't based on levels and classes but which still retains the above features.
Here is one example:
1) you collect and improve individual skills (like GW or UO)
2) there are no XP points (at least no single xp. we can have xp for each skill for example)
3) your character "level" is calculated based on the number and/or levels of your skills. You get your dings and the number can be seen by other players.
4) your character "class" is determined by your max skills. For example if your max skills are Ranged and Traps you are a "Hunter". If your max skills are Melee and Pets then you are a "Beast Warrior"... etc
So here you have a skill-based system with classes and levels.
With right presentation it can be as rewarding (if not much more so) than your run-on-the mill watch-your-xp-bar fill up system. You can have displays like "3 more skills to Lvl 20!" or you could set up goals for yourself to display "4 more ranks till Beast Master!" etc...
I won't go so far as to say I fully agree with the OP, I do agree up to a point, the leveling mechanism that is so prevelant in today's MMOs is excessive, and because of how excessive it is, it is IMO a cheap tactic to hide the corperate agenda, to keep you paying to play. I understand this need....up to a point. The thing that annoys me after a while is to the extent they do this. I've played most but not all MMOs, including UO, and the formula of 50+ levels to wade through is IMO excessive. WoW for example now has 80 levels to look forward to and yet the Devs think that their game is so great that all new accounts should trudge through now 70 levels of grinding before getting to anything resembling the "fun stuff". EQII has now what, 70 levels as well? And the Devs like Kaplan from WoW brag that th formula can go on indefinitely. Oh yes, that sounds like fun, sorta on par with a root canal and no drugs and by a dentist who's all thumbs.
Levels used to pace the game play is ok, so long as it tops out at around 20 levels or so. As an example, I loved the Neverwinter Nights game, both 1 & 2, it had 20 levels which I felt was plenty, and I wished DDO had been a lot more like NWN than what it turned out to be. The thing that makes the level grind so annoying is that after you've done it in a couple of games, you see it for what it is, a empty time sink meant to keep you playing, rather than a sandbox you're growing into.
That's what the original UO did so well, it was a sandbox, but ever since EQ came along with its raid philosophy and ad naseum leveling mechanism and loot fixation, MMOs have all followed like lemmings. Sadly for me, I like WoW the most so far, whom I feel is the worst offender of this trend, and with its fixation of the gear grind, it makes the leveling grind even worse. Why do I like WoW the most despite being the worst offender? Mostly for the PvP side of it, though Im' burning out on the whole grind it slaps you with, and sadly for other games, that burn out is going to carry over.
I think this is where most Devs these days drop the ball, they don't understand or clue into the fact that their player base has been there and done that with regards to leveling and after having beaten the treadmill to death in one game, they're less tolerant for it in a new game. Players are craving (as a whole I'd say) more sandbox elements, it doesn't have to exhaustive, but the more customization that players can bring to not only their characters but also their envoirnment the more vitality the game is going to have.
If for a example, a game only had 20 levels to it, and it took you 2 weeks of steady game play to hit those 20 levels and in that process, you develop your character's skill set and abilities and gain proficiency in their use as you level, then you get to affect the virtual world around you by changing the landscape, participating in telling battles that changes the political situation and placement of npcs, staving off rampaging npc invasions (or other player invasions) resources, etc, those 20 levels are plenty of character stat development, its the content of immersion and involvement in the game world at the end that people will cherish as the true character development, and the leveling process itself will not be the chore that it would be if there are 80 or some other stupid number to wade through first.
Unfortunately, Devs will continue to create games in the treadmill fashion until such a time as such games fail often enough to pull the plug on them and corps look at the method and say "Nope, that's a level treadmill design, it s days are over and done, come up with something better."
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
I absolutely LOVE Eve Online for it's lack of levelling - the real-time training is novel, and more importantly it works, which is why the munchkins hate it so much. I've seen many posts and chat comments from new players that are horrified that they can't be flying one of the really big/complex ships for several weeks (or even months, theoretically) even though their buddy gave them a ton of cash when they joined the game
This discussion is great, but alas, it's been done to death and has plagued MMOs since the beginning. Every year goes by and another level based system comes out, with exceptions like EVE.
You and a lot of other people! Join the club. However, it won't happen. WoW was a blessing and a cancer to MMOs. Although it wasn't the first for leveling, it made leveling such a popular formula that most makers will continue to use it instead of rolling the dice with a skill based MMO. Skill based is a lot of fun, look at orginal UO or orginal SWG. That is why Darkfall and Mortal Online have such big followings even though they have little to show for their existence. We are desperately graving a skill based game with more freedom in your character. I just don't see it happening anytime soon.
There is something that will allow you to start in the end game for nearly any mmo..
It's called EBAY, you can buy fully equiped high level characters for most main stream mmo's.
There is no point in playing an game (especially mmo's) if theres no way to advance.. don't come up with the comment like "you can work for gear" or something like that because that is pretty much exactly the same as leveling.
And leveling in an new mmo is usually fun because you get to see new areas and monsters do new quests (try to actually read the quest instead of scanning the text for what you need to get/kill) I do agree doing quests should have some sort of impact on the game world. Not fun enough to keep leveling? Play something else the game is not worth the time if its no fun.
Roleplaying Games should be about Roleplaying = playing a character in a different world than real life.
Seriously, why does levels have anything to do with that?...Not about "progression".
There are lots of pen&paper RPGS out there, with no or very limited character progression, and they are the most fun.
I'm sorry to tell you, but you've been brainwashed by mainstream MMOs, RPGs and/or Pen&Paper RPGs, which follow the D&D principles which suck.
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Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE