A quest should be "meaningful" because it impacts your character, lore, and the world in some way.
I just don't understand how you are going to make a quest that everyone can do that impacts the lore or the world in some way. You have to remember you're not living in a seperate little instance of the world anymore. You are living in the same world that thousands of other players are living in. If the world is changed for you, it's changed for those thousand other folks at the same time.
What happens when someone completes a quest and the lore or the world is impacted? Now what? No one can do that quest again? Or are you gonna "reset" the lore or the world so that someone else can complete the quest again? If you do that, was the world really impacted in the first place? I don't understand how you can do this. You can't make a million quests that can each be done by 1 person and then never again and if you make a quest that can be completed over and over, is anything really changing?
Please explain how this can be done, because I don't see how it can be done in an MMO.
why would anyone want an mmo very story based. where is the freedom
A quest should be "meaningful" because it impacts your character, lore, and the world in some way.
I just don't understand how you are going to make a quest that everyone can do that impacts the lore or the world in some way. You have to remember you're not living in a seperate little instance of the world anymore. You are living in the same world that thousands of other players are living in. If the world is changed for you, it's changed for those thousand other folks at the same time.
What happens when someone completes a quest and the lore or the world is impacted? Now what? No one can do that quest again? Or are you gonna "reset" the lore or the world so that someone else can complete the quest again? If you do that, was the world really impacted in the first place? I don't understand how you can do this. You can't make a million quests that can each be done by 1 person and then never again and if you make a quest that can be completed over and over, is anything really changing?
Please explain how this can be done, because I don't see how it can be done in an MMO.
why would anyone want an mmo very story based. where is the freedom
CoS is just as much a MMO as AoC is a MMO. It is not even close to Guild Wars.
In CoS, ALL the action takes place in the Reflected World, which is nothing more than a gigantic instance. You will never see another player who is not part of your team while you are in the Reflected World.
They call it "massive" because you can socialize and team up with other players in the city areas, just like in GW.
Originally posted by Pappy13 In PUG's, yes, but who said anything about PUG's? I'm not under the impression that you HAVE to run instances with PUG's. I almost NEVER do that because it's very frustrating because at least 1/2 the group has no clue what they are doing and the other half that do end up having to save their skin by healing them and pulling aggro off them (the role of the healers and the tank). If you get in a guild and play with some folks who know what they are doing, it totally blows the theory out of the water. It's not hard to find a decent guild, all you have to do is look for players that seem to know what they are doing and find out what guild they are in and ask to join. Now if you have no clue what you are doing, then yes that does make it a bit tough since you don't know what to look for. But I'm sorry, ignorance is no excuse. Play a little bit solo and do without a healer or tank, rely only on yourself. Is it impossible? No, it simply requires that you do things like learn how to mitigate damage, learn how to stun or trap or somehow disable the mob long enough for you to bandage. Keep a supply of pots with you and drink them in those few occasions where nothing else will work. The facts are that there are a lot of people that NEED to be in a group with a healer/tank because they simply aren't good enough to do without them. But even those people can be taught to play without relying on a healer/tank. And of course you don't ALWAYS have to go without one or the other or both, but it's nice to not HAVE to rely on them. And yes I understand that as you get close to the cap, things change a bit and you do pretty much have to have a healer and a tank, but 80% of the way to cap can be done without them and then once you reach cap, it's actually quite easy to find healers and tanks for the most part because they ARE in demand then.
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this, but here goes ...
You may not be talking about PUGs, but my comments were about the overall lack of group-friendliness in WoW, and PUGs are definitely a big factor in the group-friendliness of a game, for casual players.
So yes, ignorance IS an excuse. If the majority of the player base thinks a thing is true, then it is absolutely true when I'm trying to find a group.
It's all well and good to try to educate people otherwise, but if you never see those people again, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
I do see where you are coming from -- it's a place where you have a group of friends you know and trust and can rely on for groups where everyone understands everything about the game.
A lot of us don't have those luxuries, but like to group anyway. A lot of us have to rely on PUGs, and hope that the game provides enough incentives to entice other CASUAL players to team up. If the game is group-friendly, PUGs are fun. If it is not, all the casuals learn to hate grouping, and the problem gets worse.
CoS is just as much a MMO as AoC is a MMO. It is not even close to Guild Wars.
In CoS, ALL the action takes place in the Reflected World, which is nothing more than a gigantic instance. You will never see another player who is not part of your team while you are in the Reflected World.
They call it "massive" because you can socialize and team up with other players in the city areas, just like in GW.
Well your wrong because you will see others in the Reflected World. Not just your group memebers.... The Reflected world is basicly everything outside of the Citadel.
CoS is just as much a MMO as AoC is a MMO. It is not even close to Guild Wars.
In CoS, ALL the action takes place in the Reflected World, which is nothing more than a gigantic instance. You will never see another player who is not part of your team while you are in the Reflected World.
They call it "massive" because you can socialize and team up with other players in the city areas, just like in GW.
Well your wrong because you will see others in the Reflected World. Not just your group memebers.... The Reflected world is basicly everything outside of the Citadel.
"...while out questing you and your group will be in a massive instance of the entire world, which means you will not be seeing the occasonal other player wandering by."
CoS is just as much a MMO as AoC is a MMO. It is not even close to Guild Wars.
In CoS, ALL the action takes place in the Reflected World, which is nothing more than a gigantic instance. You will never see another player who is not part of your team while you are in the Reflected World.
They call it "massive" because you can socialize and team up with other players in the city areas, just like in GW.
Well your wrong because you will see others in the Reflected World. Not just your group memebers.... The Reflected world is basicly everything outside of the Citadel.
"...while out questing you and your group will be in a massive instance of the entire world, which means you will not be seeing the occasonal other player wandering by."
You are correct sir. I was wrong. I though it was an open world int he Reflected world.
You may not be talking about PUGs, but my comments were about the overall lack of group-friendliness in WoW, and PUGs are definitely a big factor in the group-friendliness of a game, for casual players. It's a matter of point of view. You are frustrated that PUG's for instances require the classic healer/tank approach. I maintain that's only because often times the people in them are not familiar enough with the mechanics of the game. They are using it as a crutch. The game does not dictate that approach, it's the player's unwillingness to go beyond the classic healer/tank approach that is causing this problem. And lets not lose sight of the fact that you are only talking about instances. PUG's for general questing purposes is much less rigid. 2 player or 3 player PUG's happen ALL the time that don't employ a classic healer/tank approach. So I think it's unfair to classify the entire game as non-group friendly when you are talking about only a portion of the game. To you it may seem like a large portion of the game, but for many it is not.
You may not be talking about PUGs, but my comments were about the overall lack of group-friendliness in WoW, and PUGs are definitely a big factor in the group-friendliness of a game, for casual players. It's a matter of point of view. You are frustrated that PUG's for instances require the classic healer/tank approach. I maintain that's only because often times the people in them are not familiar enough with the mechanics of the game. They are using it as a crutch. The game does not dictate that approach, it's the player's unwillingness to go beyond the classic healer/tank approach that is causing this problem. And lets not lose sight of the fact that you are only talking about instances. PUG's for general questing purposes is much less rigid. 2 player or 3 player PUG's happen ALL the time that don't employ a classic healer/tank approach. So I think it's unfair to classify the entire game as non-group friendly when you are talking about only a portion of the game. To you it may seem like a large portion of the game, but for many it is not.
I can only speak from my own experiences. I have tried to group outside of instances as well, with FAR less success. I think it is common knowledge that WoW players almost never group up outside of instances for more than one quick quest.
You have a lot of theories about how group-friendly WoW could be if only people understood it better.
What I'm saying is that there are other games that address these psychological and pedagogical issues and are far more group-friendly because of it.
You may not be talking about PUGs, but my comments were about the overall lack of group-friendliness in WoW, and PUGs are definitely a big factor in the group-friendliness of a game, for casual players. It's a matter of point of view. You are frustrated that PUG's for instances require the classic healer/tank approach. I maintain that's only because often times the people in them are not familiar enough with the mechanics of the game. They are using it as a crutch. The game does not dictate that approach, it's the player's unwillingness to go beyond the classic healer/tank approach that is causing this problem. And lets not lose sight of the fact that you are only talking about instances. PUG's for general questing purposes is much less rigid. 2 player or 3 player PUG's happen ALL the time that don't employ a classic healer/tank approach. So I think it's unfair to classify the entire game as non-group friendly when you are talking about only a portion of the game. To you it may seem like a large portion of the game, but for many it is not.
I can only speak from my own experiences. I have tried to group outside of instances as well, with FAR less success. I think it is common knowledge that WoW players almost never group up outside of instances for more than one quick quest.
You have a lot of theories about how group-friendly WoW could be if only people understood it better.
What I'm saying is that there are other games that address these psychological and pedagogical issues and are far more group-friendly because of it.
Well I guess we agree to disagree.
My own experience has been the exact opposite of yours in that I found it difficult to group up in CoX and found it exceedingly easy to group up in WoW. But the reason has nothing to do with the game mecahnics of either game, it has to do with my situation. I knew no one who played CoX when I started playing, so any grouping I did was with complete strangers. I found it hard to find people who had the same quests as I or wanted to do the same instances as I did. I would often jump from 1 group to the next trying to find a decent group and maybe on one night I would have success, but on other nights not.
However I had several friends that started playing WoW at the same time that I did, so we naturally grouped up together and did quests and instances together all the time and they were quite easy to do and never was there any problems regardless of who was in the group. We did not have dedicated healers, nor did we have dedicated tankers, we made due with whatever the group makeup was. We found solutions to problems by using what we had to work with, not relying on a predetermined group makeup. Frankly it was completely a non issue and I maintain that anyone can do this including PUG's and in fact I don't think you are disputing that fact, you merely maintain that they don't. The fact they don't is not a limitation of the game, but rather the group itself. They could if they wanted to.
So in my opinion it's not the game itself that determines the relative ease of grouping up, but rather the groups themself. Generally speaking, PUG's are not fun. They weren't fun in CoX and they are not fun in WoW. However if you find a group of people that you enjoy grouping up with in either game it is quite enjoyeable in either game. The game mechanics of grouping up are not the deciding factor. I have no idea what psychological or pedagogical group problems CoX has remedied with it's game design. That is a new one on me.
Ah, I see part of the problem. In CoH, it doesn't really matter if you're on the same mission. Mission completion rewards are quite small compared to the XP, influence, and drops you earn through combat.
So if you were trying to always be on the same mission as your entire team, I guess you would have found the whole thing very frustrating. In general, most PUGs in CoH either pick one person to get all the missions, or they take turns doing each other's.
But it's true, we must agree to disagree on this point: If you don't think PUGs can ever be fun, then this conversation is pointless. I happen to think PUGs in CoH are great fun, and there are a lot of CoH players who agree.
And I feel the need to reiterate: Having a group of friends you can play with puts you in an uncommon position. Most players (and I would venture the vast majority of casual players) are not so privileged. But casuals are often content to solo, and I think games where PUGs are unpleasant only reinforce this unfortunate tendency.
So in my opinion it's not the game itself that determines the relative ease of grouping up, but rather the groups themself. Generally speaking, PUG's are not fun. They weren't fun in CoX and they are not fun in WoW. However if you find a group of people that you enjoy grouping up with in either game it is quite enjoyeable in either game. The game mechanics of grouping up are not the deciding factor. I have no idea what psychological or pedagogical group problems CoX has remedied with it's game design. That is a new one on me.
Did you ever play EQ1? Especially so if you played at release. Almost every group was a pug, and it was a blast.
Mechanics are the overall driver when determining if a game will have good pugs. A game will have bad pugs if you have the following:
- Fast leveling (people don't figure out their character while leveling)
- Lots of solo content, and on par with group content (people haven't much reason to group, therefore do not figure out how to run their character in a group environment)
- Light death penalty (people are not forced to increase their skill playing their character, then when entering the understandably harder group content, they die over and over and can't figure out why)
- Much more solo quest content than group quest (game not focusing enough on group play, therefore players generally have less experience in a group environment)
Lastly, but really nothing to do with what I just said, if you're doing level appropriate content in wow with level appropriate gear, no way you can survive without a tank in a group. Someone has to soak the damage. Most of those dungeons cannot be kite-tanked. In the extreme case, I'd like to see someone in pre-raid, pre-badge gear go through heroic underbog without a tank. lol That would make a great you tube.
nethervoid - Est. '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1 20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
And I feel the need to reiterate: Having a group of friends you can play with puts you in an uncommon position.
Actually I think THIS is the crux of the issue between us. I'd be willing to bet that over half the players in WoW are in a guild or have spent a significant portion of their playing time in a guild. Sounds like you have spent a large part of your time in WoW guildless. Is that true?
Perhaps this is the major difference between WoW and CoX and what you do not care for in WoW. Do you not like guilds? In my opinion guilds in WoW are just another way to go about grouping up, but I find them much more conducive to grouping up than PUG's. You get to know people in guilds. You get to know what they are like, how they play, what they think is funny or not and so on. I would much rather group up with someone that I know even if it's only within the confines of the game than a complete stranger. It makes them more accountable, which makes them far less likely to act like a jerk to you or disrespect you like you will find in many PUG's, CoX included, because they know they might see you again tomorrow. I find guilds in WoW to be far superior to PUG's in any game and encourage everyone to be in one. PUG's are not a mandate. They are not required and no I don't believe they are the norm either. Sure there's a lot of them, but there's a lot of guild grouping going on as well.
And It's not hard to find a guild either, it's very easy. All you have to do is look for people that you enjoy grouping up with. You can start out with PUG's, but as soon as you find a couple people who seem to know what they are doing, you simply strike up a conversation with them and find out if they are in a guild. If they are, see if you can get an invite. I find that if you find one person that is fun to play with and join his guild, you'll find others that are pretty much the same. People of the same type tend to congregate together, so once you find one, there are usually others close by. It doesn't always work, but a lot of times it does. Does it require a little effort on your part? Yes, it does, but it's well worth it.
So in my opinion it's not the game itself that determines the relative ease of grouping up, but rather the groups themself. Generally speaking, PUG's are not fun. They weren't fun in CoX and they are not fun in WoW. However if you find a group of people that you enjoy grouping up with in either game it is quite enjoyeable in either game. The game mechanics of grouping up are not the deciding factor. I have no idea what psychological or pedagogical group problems CoX has remedied with it's game design. That is a new one on me.
Did you ever play EQ1? Especially so if you played at release. Almost every group was a pug, and it was a blast.
Mechanics are the overall driver when determining if a game will have good pugs. A game will have bad pugs if you have the following:
- Fast leveling (people don't figure out their character while leveling)
- Lots of solo content, and on par with group content (people haven't much reason to group, therefore do not figure out how to run their character in a group environment)
- Light death penalty (people are not forced to increase their skill playing their character, then when entering the understandably harder group content, they die over and over and can't figure out why)
- Much more solo quest content than group quest (game not focusing enough on group play, therefore players generally have less experience in a group environment)
Lastly, but really nothing to do with what I just said, if you're doing level appropriate content in wow with level appropriate gear, no way you can survive without a tank in a group. Someone has to soak the damage. Most of those dungeons cannot be kite-tanked. In the extreme case, I'd like to see someone in pre-raid, pre-badge gear go through heroic underbog without a tank. lol That would make a great you tube.
No, I have not played EQ. Have you ever been in a guild in WoW? Fantastic grouping. It's amazing how the people in a guild can suddenly be great group members when the game itself actually "teaches" you not to be. Huh. I don't understand it. (that was sarcasm in case you missed it.)
So in my opinion it's not the game itself that determines the relative ease of grouping up, but rather the groups themself. Generally speaking, PUG's are not fun. They weren't fun in CoX and they are not fun in WoW. However if you find a group of people that you enjoy grouping up with in either game it is quite enjoyeable in either game. The game mechanics of grouping up are not the deciding factor. I have no idea what psychological or pedagogical group problems CoX has remedied with it's game design. That is a new one on me.
Did you ever play EQ1? Especially so if you played at release. Almost every group was a pug, and it was a blast.
Mechanics are the overall driver when determining if a game will have good pugs. A game will have bad pugs if you have the following:
- Fast leveling (people don't figure out their character while leveling)
- Lots of solo content, and on par with group content (people haven't much reason to group, therefore do not figure out how to run their character in a group environment)
- Light death penalty (people are not forced to increase their skill playing their character, then when entering the understandably harder group content, they die over and over and can't figure out why)
- Much more solo quest content than group quest (game not focusing enough on group play, therefore players generally have less experience in a group environment)
Lastly, but really nothing to do with what I just said, if you're doing level appropriate content in wow with level appropriate gear, no way you can survive without a tank in a group. Someone has to soak the damage. Most of those dungeons cannot be kite-tanked. In the extreme case, I'd like to see someone in pre-raid, pre-badge gear go through heroic underbog without a tank. lol That would make a great you tube.
No, I have not played EQ. Have you ever been in a guild in WoW? Fantastic grouping. It's amazing how the people in a guild can suddenly be great group members when the game itself actually "teaches" you not to be. Huh. I don't understand it. (that was sarcasm in case you missed it.)
Actually I stayed guildless until I hit max, and then joined a raiding guild. We did some group stuff after that, but I actually pugged most of the pre-kara stuff.
Most of WoW's pug problem can be attributed to the four reasons I stated in my post. We didn't have any problems in EQ, and we also didn't have these four issues I stated here. Nobody would say there was NEVER an issue with someone who didn't know their role in an EQ group or who got everyone killed all the time from being newbish in the area, but it was very rare. Far more common was the person who was just new to the zone, but most times they were a good player and skilled with their class from previous grouping experiences.
In EQ, you first start grouping around lv 10, and I would say at least half of the time from 10 to 20 you're grouped. Beyond 20, unless you're really TRYING to solo, you're grouped.
nethervoid - Est. '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1 20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
No, I have not played EQ. Have you ever been in a guild in WoW? Fantastic grouping. It's amazing how the people in a guild can suddenly be great group members when the game itself actually "teaches" you not to be. Huh. I don't understand it. (that was sarcasm in case you missed it.)
Actually I stayed guildless until I hit max, and then joined a raiding guild. We did some group stuff after that, but I actually pugged most of the pre-kara stuff.
Most of WoW's pug problem can be attributed to the three reasons I stated in my post. We didn't have any problems in EQ, and we also didn't have these three issues I stated here. Nobody would say there was NEVER an issue with someone who didn't know their role in an EQ group or who got everyone killed all the time from being newbish in the area, but it was very rare. Far more common was the person who was just new to the zone, but most times they were a good player and skilled with their class from previous grouping experiences.
In EQ, you first start grouping around lv 10, and I would say at least half of the time from 10 to 20 you're grouped. Beyond 20, unless you're really TRYING to solo, you're grouped.
Joining a raiding guild is not what I'm talking about. Raid guilds are just that, a means to an end. The "point" of a raiding guild is to progress through raid content and nothing more (usually). Sometimes they might be good to group with as well, but maybe not. Most member of raid guilds only get together to raid or to do an activity associated with raiding like farming for mats for enchants/repairs or getting rep or something along those lines. These are not necessarily good guilds for general grouping up and are not really what I'm talking about.
Maybe I need to explain myself a bit and how I came to believe what I do. I played CoX for a few months, but I couldn't convince anyone that I knew to get the game and I found myself pretty bored. I enjoyed the game for the most part, but it wasn't that much different from playing a single player game. I tried grouping up, but it just felt cold to me. Sure I had a little fun from time to time, but nothing all that great.
And then WoW came out and for whatever reason I was able to convince another guy that I played a lot of FPS type games with to buy it. We started playing together and grouped up with a few people in PUG's that we liked and we put them on our friends list and started grouping up with them more and more. Pretty soon we decided to buy a guild charter and become a guild. As time went by, we picked up more and more players and almost every night at least 2 or 3 of us would be on. Often we would just get together and group up to quest or do whatever and it was the best time I have ever had in a multiplayer game. We got a ventrilo server and I became closer to some of the people in my guild than some of the "RL" friends I have had over the years. (By the way I hate calling them "RL" friends, because the people in my guild are real people so they are in fact my real life friends as well, but I used the term "RL" so you would know what I was talking about). Nothing in my gaming history has ever compared to the experience I have had in WoW and I don't believe that my experience is all that atypical. A lot of the foks that I meet on a day to day basis have been playing WoW for years and many of them have had the same type of experience I've had, but we've all had one thing in common, we got into a guild. We all realized right away that PUG's are just not nearly as good as grouping up with folks you know.
I know what most of you are going to say. "Well lucky for you, but that's not what happend to me." Well I don't think it's luck. I just realized that if I really wanted to enjoy myself, it's better to do it with people that I know and have a reasonable expectation of playing with again. Why do you think WoW even has a "Friends" list? It's not there for show people. It's there for a reason. Same thing goes for guilds.
And don't make the mistake of thinking that guilds are a WoW thing or even an MMO thing. They are not. Almost every organized activity has something akin to a guild. I used to play a lot of softball and I got on a softball team where I met a bunch of great guys and loved playing with them. You think it would have been nearly as fun to just show up at the ball field and play with whomever? Please. It can't compare.
Alright, well I'm rambling now so I'll wrap this up and just say that I believe that if the only thing you have experienced is PUG's, then you have missed the ball completely on MMO's. Get in a guild and see what fun really is, then come back here and tell me I'm wrong.
Alright, well I'm rambling now so I'll wrap this up and just say that I believe that if the only thing you have experienced is PUG's, then you have missed the ball completely on MMO's. Get in a guild and see what fun really is, then come back here and tell me I'm wrong.
I have been in guilds in WoW. It's one of the first things I do every time I come back to the game.
But I guess I have to repeat this one more time -- I am a casual player.
As such, I cannot keep up with the leveling pace of the more hardcore members of a guild. Of course there are casual guilds, but in those you seldom see the same people from one session to the next, and there are hardly ever more than 2 people online in the same level range.
So I helped co-found a guild, made up mostly of casual players, intent on sticking together so we could have a fun group-oriented experience in WoW. It was really, really hard. But we stuck with it, and eventually got into a rhythm for about a month. But then real life events made some members miss group nights here and there and it got really hard again trying to keep the group together. Now half the members have moved to AoC, where I assume they are soloing themselves silly.
But see the problem here? A casual player cannot approach a game in the way you assume is so natural and perfect. Someone who doesn't play the game every single night of his life is simply not going to be able form the close relationships or keep up with leveling pace.
That's why PUGs are necessary -- absolutely necessary, for a casual player.
Please don't tell me I have missed the point of MMOs. I have approached WoW from every angle I can as a casual player, and I am here to tell you that, for casual players, WoW is not group friendly. It's a very fun game in many respects, but casual grouping is one area where it fails hard.
I have been in guilds in WoW. It's one of the first things I do every time I come back to the game. But I guess I have to repeat this one more time -- I am a casual player. As such, I cannot keep up with the leveling pace of the more hardcore members of a guild. Of course there are casual guilds, but in those you seldom see the same people from one session to the next, and there are hardly ever more than 2 people online in the same level range. So I helped co-found a guild, made up mostly of casual players, intent on sticking together so we could have a fun group-oriented experience in WoW. It was really, really hard. But we stuck with it, and eventually got into a rhythm for about a month. But then real life events made some members miss group nights here and there and it got really hard again trying to keep the group together. Now half the members have moved to AoC, where I assume they are soloing themselves silly. But see the problem here? A casual player cannot approach a game in the way you assume is so natural and perfect. Someone who doesn't play the game every single night of his life is simply not going to be able form the close relationships or keep up with leveling pace. That's why PUGs are necessary -- absolutely necessary, for a casual player. Please don't tell me I have missed the point of MMOs. I have approached WoW from every angle I can as a casual player, and I am here to tell you that, for casual players, WoW is not group friendly. It's a very fun game in many respects, but casual grouping is one area where it fails hard.
Hexx, I feel for you, because you have only experienced for 1 month what I have experienced for 3.5 years and I'll tell you what, nothing compares. Nothing. But don't give up. Just because it hasn't happend for you yet, doesn't mean it won't. It has nothing to do with you being a casual player or the game you play. Most of the guys that I play with are very casual themselves. They play maybe once or twice a week for maybe a couple hours at a time, but there's enough of us in the guild that even though some of them are only on a very limited amount of time, there's almost never a night that goes by that at least 2 of us aren't on.
I told you it would be difficult what you were attempting to do, stay together and level together. I have tried to do that myself several times and it almost never works. What you have to do instead is find 8 or 10 guys who are casual like you that only play a couple times a week and create a guild. Don't try to stay together. Each of you plays at your own pace, but whenever you are on group up and help each other out. Each of you can have a couple different alts so that you can switch to your character that is closest to the level as one of your guild mates when they are on. Forget about healer/tank and just group up. Forget about instances too unless maybe you have like 3 or 4 of you on at once and then go do an instance. Don't pick an instance that you have to find a 4th or 5th for, go to an instance that suits the 3 or 4 of you. If you have to do one that's a few levels below you, that's ok, because the point of grouping up is NOT to get a lot of XP and level up but to be grouped up and enjoying yourselves together.
And one final thing. Get headsets and get ventrilo. I've told you before and I'm telling you again there is nothing like being able to talk with others while playing. Typing doesn't compare. Everything I just said I could have said in like 2 minutes, but it's taken me like 10 mins to type it. Jokes are 10 times funnier when you hear the person saying it. Laughs are 10 times better than ROFLMAO. Swearing has 10 times more impact when said in vent. Just trust me on this.
It can happen for you too Hexx and when it does, I think you'll see things in a whole new light.
That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Originally posted by Hexxeity
Regarding the term "healer" in CoX -- I have always regarded anyone using this term as someone who does not understand the game, and someone I would not want to group with.
Even if I'm playing an Empathy Defender at the moment, I will not even consider an invitation that is prefaced with "Are you a healer?" or "Are you Empathy?" For anyone who has ever played a Force Field Defender, there is no more insulting question in the game.
In the days before Trick Arrow, ANY Defender was capable of keeping a team alive, provided that team would put forth the minimal mental effort required to work WITH that Defender rather than stupidly charging around expecting "traditional" healing. So people asking specifically for a healer (or worse, an empath) was a red flag indicating that this was a cluleless team, destiined for wipe after wipe.
Getting back to our original discussion Hexx, you once wrote the above about CoX. I could have written the exact same thing about WoW only replace the word "defender" with "Priest, Paladin, Shaman or Druid". That's 4 of the 9 available classes in WoW which is nearly half. Just how tough is it to find one of these classes? It's not hard at all. The problem is that groups don't just want one of these, they want a "holy" Priest or Paladin or a "resto" Shaman or Druid when it's not really needed. This is a red flag indicating that this was a clueless team destined for wipe after wipe. My thoughts exactly.
I understand what you are saying, really I do. But your advice comes with so many caveats and conditions! Why should I bend over backwards to sometimes be able to group and generally forget about the content I find most interesting (instances)? Your words, not mine.
Why would I choose to sort-of be able to group sometimes in WoW when I can group anytime I want with a lot less effort in CoH?
The answer, of course, is that WoW has better content. But that is not what we are debating. I was not asking for advice in how to enjoy WoW. I was stating a case that WoW is not a good game for casual players who like to group. And I still believe it's not, and I know I'm not alone in this.
Why should I bend over backwards to sometimes be able to group and generally forget about the content I find most interesting (instances)? Why would I choose to sort-of be able to group sometimes in WoW when I can group anytime I want with a lot less effort in CoH?
No, it's not because of the content in WoW, it's because the end result is SO much better. You think grouping is grouping and I can tell you flat out that grouping is NOT grouping. There is PUG grouping and there is grouping within a guild.
Have you ever played a team sport like Basketball where you go to the local YMCA and just get in a PUG? Is it fun? Sure it's fun. But have you ever been on a Basketball team that played in a league? One where you met up to play? Shared the same uniform? Kept track of wins and losses for your team? Where you learned how to play as a team rather than just be 5 individuals on a court who's points just happen to get added together? There's a BIG difference. It's night and day. And if you have never experienced that, then I can understand why you don't agree with me, but if you have than I think you are either ignoring the fact being in a WoW guild is like that or you just don't believe it can be like that. It can be.
ive read, in WAR, when u enter a new area, u will asked if u want to do a special group quest, if u say yes, u will be grouped automaticly, and can make the quest.
I didn't bother to read all of this, but I agree totally with the OP. Not only about the grouping aspect, which I could see either way on that. I liked one guys post about the circle, games were about grouping, then solo and then back to grouping. That seems kinda reasonable to me, especially with all the different types of MMO players out there.
What I really liked about what the OP said was that games are too EASY. I want to walk out at the beginning and get totally owned too. I want to try multiple times and fail trying to beat the first mob I see. I want to have to climb to the top of a tower and shoot the bastard before he reaches me, because I know if he reaches me I'm dead.
Plus whoever it was talking about guilds in WoW...guilds in WoW are nothing compared to old MMO's. The fact that I could have a guild house in AC was huge. I'd log in and see my guild members simply hangin' out around the house buffing each other getting ready for another adventure. The coolest thing about that is that people aren't the green text in the chat box in your lower left hand corner. They are there, right next to you, everytime you log on.
It all just adds so much more to guilds. But whatever I'm getting lengthy.
Comments
What happens when someone completes a quest and the lore or the world is impacted? Now what? No one can do that quest again? Or are you gonna "reset" the lore or the world so that someone else can complete the quest again? If you do that, was the world really impacted in the first place? I don't understand how you can do this. You can't make a million quests that can each be done by 1 person and then never again and if you make a quest that can be completed over and over, is anything really changing?
Please explain how this can be done, because I don't see how it can be done in an MMO.
why would anyone want an mmo very story based. where is the freedom
http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/ - This game is trying the Story based MMO with alot of Freedom.
Sooner or Later
What happens when someone completes a quest and the lore or the world is impacted? Now what? No one can do that quest again? Or are you gonna "reset" the lore or the world so that someone else can complete the quest again? If you do that, was the world really impacted in the first place? I don't understand how you can do this. You can't make a million quests that can each be done by 1 person and then never again and if you make a quest that can be completed over and over, is anything really changing?
Please explain how this can be done, because I don't see how it can be done in an MMO.
why would anyone want an mmo very story based. where is the freedom
http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/ - This game is trying the Story based MMO with alot of Freedom.
Citadel of Sorcery is an MMO in the same way that Guild Wars is -- that is to say, not at all.
CoS is just as much a MMO as AoC is a MMO. It is not even close to Guild Wars.
Sooner or Later
Certainly doesnt look like to me.....
They call it "massive" because you can socialize and team up with other players in the city areas, just like in GW.
You may not be talking about PUGs, but my comments were about the overall lack of group-friendliness in WoW, and PUGs are definitely a big factor in the group-friendliness of a game, for casual players.
So yes, ignorance IS an excuse. If the majority of the player base thinks a thing is true, then it is absolutely true when I'm trying to find a group.
It's all well and good to try to educate people otherwise, but if you never see those people again, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
I do see where you are coming from -- it's a place where you have a group of friends you know and trust and can rely on for groups where everyone understands everything about the game.
A lot of us don't have those luxuries, but like to group anyway. A lot of us have to rely on PUGs, and hope that the game provides enough incentives to entice other CASUAL players to team up. If the game is group-friendly, PUGs are fun. If it is not, all the casuals learn to hate grouping, and the problem gets worse.
They call it "massive" because you can socialize and team up with other players in the city areas, just like in GW.
Well your wrong because you will see others in the Reflected World. Not just your group memebers.... The Reflected world is basicly everything outside of the Citadel.
Go post and ask on the CoS forums on MMORPG.com.
Sooner or Later
They call it "massive" because you can socialize and team up with other players in the city areas, just like in GW.
Well your wrong because you will see others in the Reflected World. Not just your group memebers.... The Reflected world is basicly everything outside of the Citadel.
Go post and ask on the CoS forums on MMORPG.com.
Sorry, I'm not wrong.http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2049532#2049532"
"...while out questing you and your group will be in a massive instance of the entire world, which means you will not be seeing the occasonal other player wandering by."
They call it "massive" because you can socialize and team up with other players in the city areas, just like in GW.
Well your wrong because you will see others in the Reflected World. Not just your group memebers.... The Reflected world is basicly everything outside of the Citadel.
Go post and ask on the CoS forums on MMORPG.com.
Sorry, I'm not wrong.http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2049532#2049532"
"...while out questing you and your group will be in a massive instance of the entire world, which means you will not be seeing the occasonal other player wandering by."
You are correct sir. I was wrong. I though it was an open world int he Reflected world.
hmm.
Sooner or Later
I can only speak from my own experiences. I have tried to group outside of instances as well, with FAR less success. I think it is common knowledge that WoW players almost never group up outside of instances for more than one quick quest.You have a lot of theories about how group-friendly WoW could be if only people understood it better.
What I'm saying is that there are other games that address these psychological and pedagogical issues and are far more group-friendly because of it.
I can only speak from my own experiences. I have tried to group outside of instances as well, with FAR less success. I think it is common knowledge that WoW players almost never group up outside of instances for more than one quick quest.You have a lot of theories about how group-friendly WoW could be if only people understood it better.
What I'm saying is that there are other games that address these psychological and pedagogical issues and are far more group-friendly because of it.
Well I guess we agree to disagree.
My own experience has been the exact opposite of yours in that I found it difficult to group up in CoX and found it exceedingly easy to group up in WoW. But the reason has nothing to do with the game mecahnics of either game, it has to do with my situation. I knew no one who played CoX when I started playing, so any grouping I did was with complete strangers. I found it hard to find people who had the same quests as I or wanted to do the same instances as I did. I would often jump from 1 group to the next trying to find a decent group and maybe on one night I would have success, but on other nights not.
However I had several friends that started playing WoW at the same time that I did, so we naturally grouped up together and did quests and instances together all the time and they were quite easy to do and never was there any problems regardless of who was in the group. We did not have dedicated healers, nor did we have dedicated tankers, we made due with whatever the group makeup was. We found solutions to problems by using what we had to work with, not relying on a predetermined group makeup. Frankly it was completely a non issue and I maintain that anyone can do this including PUG's and in fact I don't think you are disputing that fact, you merely maintain that they don't. The fact they don't is not a limitation of the game, but rather the group itself. They could if they wanted to.
So in my opinion it's not the game itself that determines the relative ease of grouping up, but rather the groups themself. Generally speaking, PUG's are not fun. They weren't fun in CoX and they are not fun in WoW. However if you find a group of people that you enjoy grouping up with in either game it is quite enjoyeable in either game. The game mechanics of grouping up are not the deciding factor. I have no idea what psychological or pedagogical group problems CoX has remedied with it's game design. That is a new one on me.
Ah, I see part of the problem. In CoH, it doesn't really matter if you're on the same mission. Mission completion rewards are quite small compared to the XP, influence, and drops you earn through combat.
So if you were trying to always be on the same mission as your entire team, I guess you would have found the whole thing very frustrating. In general, most PUGs in CoH either pick one person to get all the missions, or they take turns doing each other's.
But it's true, we must agree to disagree on this point: If you don't think PUGs can ever be fun, then this conversation is pointless. I happen to think PUGs in CoH are great fun, and there are a lot of CoH players who agree.
And I feel the need to reiterate: Having a group of friends you can play with puts you in an uncommon position. Most players (and I would venture the vast majority of casual players) are not so privileged. But casuals are often content to solo, and I think games where PUGs are unpleasant only reinforce this unfortunate tendency.
Did you ever play EQ1? Especially so if you played at release. Almost every group was a pug, and it was a blast.
Mechanics are the overall driver when determining if a game will have good pugs. A game will have bad pugs if you have the following:
- Fast leveling (people don't figure out their character while leveling)
- Lots of solo content, and on par with group content (people haven't much reason to group, therefore do not figure out how to run their character in a group environment)
- Light death penalty (people are not forced to increase their skill playing their character, then when entering the understandably harder group content, they die over and over and can't figure out why)
- Much more solo quest content than group quest (game not focusing enough on group play, therefore players generally have less experience in a group environment)
Lastly, but really nothing to do with what I just said, if you're doing level appropriate content in wow with level appropriate gear, no way you can survive without a tank in a group. Someone has to soak the damage. Most of those dungeons cannot be kite-tanked. In the extreme case, I'd like to see someone in pre-raid, pre-badge gear go through heroic underbog without a tank. lol That would make a great you tube.
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
Perhaps this is the major difference between WoW and CoX and what you do not care for in WoW. Do you not like guilds? In my opinion guilds in WoW are just another way to go about grouping up, but I find them much more conducive to grouping up than PUG's. You get to know people in guilds. You get to know what they are like, how they play, what they think is funny or not and so on. I would much rather group up with someone that I know even if it's only within the confines of the game than a complete stranger. It makes them more accountable, which makes them far less likely to act like a jerk to you or disrespect you like you will find in many PUG's, CoX included, because they know they might see you again tomorrow. I find guilds in WoW to be far superior to PUG's in any game and encourage everyone to be in one. PUG's are not a mandate. They are not required and no I don't believe they are the norm either. Sure there's a lot of them, but there's a lot of guild grouping going on as well.
And It's not hard to find a guild either, it's very easy. All you have to do is look for people that you enjoy grouping up with. You can start out with PUG's, but as soon as you find a couple people who seem to know what they are doing, you simply strike up a conversation with them and find out if they are in a guild. If they are, see if you can get an invite. I find that if you find one person that is fun to play with and join his guild, you'll find others that are pretty much the same. People of the same type tend to congregate together, so once you find one, there are usually others close by. It doesn't always work, but a lot of times it does. Does it require a little effort on your part? Yes, it does, but it's well worth it.
Did you ever play EQ1? Especially so if you played at release. Almost every group was a pug, and it was a blast.
Mechanics are the overall driver when determining if a game will have good pugs. A game will have bad pugs if you have the following:
- Fast leveling (people don't figure out their character while leveling)
- Lots of solo content, and on par with group content (people haven't much reason to group, therefore do not figure out how to run their character in a group environment)
- Light death penalty (people are not forced to increase their skill playing their character, then when entering the understandably harder group content, they die over and over and can't figure out why)
- Much more solo quest content than group quest (game not focusing enough on group play, therefore players generally have less experience in a group environment)
Lastly, but really nothing to do with what I just said, if you're doing level appropriate content in wow with level appropriate gear, no way you can survive without a tank in a group. Someone has to soak the damage. Most of those dungeons cannot be kite-tanked. In the extreme case, I'd like to see someone in pre-raid, pre-badge gear go through heroic underbog without a tank. lol That would make a great you tube.
No, I have not played EQ. Have you ever been in a guild in WoW? Fantastic grouping. It's amazing how the people in a guild can suddenly be great group members when the game itself actually "teaches" you not to be. Huh. I don't understand it. (that was sarcasm in case you missed it.)
Did you ever play EQ1? Especially so if you played at release. Almost every group was a pug, and it was a blast.
Mechanics are the overall driver when determining if a game will have good pugs. A game will have bad pugs if you have the following:
- Fast leveling (people don't figure out their character while leveling)
- Lots of solo content, and on par with group content (people haven't much reason to group, therefore do not figure out how to run their character in a group environment)
- Light death penalty (people are not forced to increase their skill playing their character, then when entering the understandably harder group content, they die over and over and can't figure out why)
- Much more solo quest content than group quest (game not focusing enough on group play, therefore players generally have less experience in a group environment)
Lastly, but really nothing to do with what I just said, if you're doing level appropriate content in wow with level appropriate gear, no way you can survive without a tank in a group. Someone has to soak the damage. Most of those dungeons cannot be kite-tanked. In the extreme case, I'd like to see someone in pre-raid, pre-badge gear go through heroic underbog without a tank. lol That would make a great you tube.
No, I have not played EQ. Have you ever been in a guild in WoW? Fantastic grouping. It's amazing how the people in a guild can suddenly be great group members when the game itself actually "teaches" you not to be. Huh. I don't understand it. (that was sarcasm in case you missed it.)
Actually I stayed guildless until I hit max, and then joined a raiding guild. We did some group stuff after that, but I actually pugged most of the pre-kara stuff.Most of WoW's pug problem can be attributed to the four reasons I stated in my post. We didn't have any problems in EQ, and we also didn't have these four issues I stated here. Nobody would say there was NEVER an issue with someone who didn't know their role in an EQ group or who got everyone killed all the time from being newbish in the area, but it was very rare. Far more common was the person who was just new to the zone, but most times they were a good player and skilled with their class from previous grouping experiences.
In EQ, you first start grouping around lv 10, and I would say at least half of the time from 10 to 20 you're grouped. Beyond 20, unless you're really TRYING to solo, you're grouped.
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
Most of WoW's pug problem can be attributed to the three reasons I stated in my post. We didn't have any problems in EQ, and we also didn't have these three issues I stated here. Nobody would say there was NEVER an issue with someone who didn't know their role in an EQ group or who got everyone killed all the time from being newbish in the area, but it was very rare. Far more common was the person who was just new to the zone, but most times they were a good player and skilled with their class from previous grouping experiences.
In EQ, you first start grouping around lv 10, and I would say at least half of the time from 10 to 20 you're grouped. Beyond 20, unless you're really TRYING to solo, you're grouped.
Joining a raiding guild is not what I'm talking about. Raid guilds are just that, a means to an end. The "point" of a raiding guild is to progress through raid content and nothing more (usually). Sometimes they might be good to group with as well, but maybe not. Most member of raid guilds only get together to raid or to do an activity associated with raiding like farming for mats for enchants/repairs or getting rep or something along those lines. These are not necessarily good guilds for general grouping up and are not really what I'm talking about.
Maybe I need to explain myself a bit and how I came to believe what I do. I played CoX for a few months, but I couldn't convince anyone that I knew to get the game and I found myself pretty bored. I enjoyed the game for the most part, but it wasn't that much different from playing a single player game. I tried grouping up, but it just felt cold to me. Sure I had a little fun from time to time, but nothing all that great.
And then WoW came out and for whatever reason I was able to convince another guy that I played a lot of FPS type games with to buy it. We started playing together and grouped up with a few people in PUG's that we liked and we put them on our friends list and started grouping up with them more and more. Pretty soon we decided to buy a guild charter and become a guild. As time went by, we picked up more and more players and almost every night at least 2 or 3 of us would be on. Often we would just get together and group up to quest or do whatever and it was the best time I have ever had in a multiplayer game. We got a ventrilo server and I became closer to some of the people in my guild than some of the "RL" friends I have had over the years. (By the way I hate calling them "RL" friends, because the people in my guild are real people so they are in fact my real life friends as well, but I used the term "RL" so you would know what I was talking about). Nothing in my gaming history has ever compared to the experience I have had in WoW and I don't believe that my experience is all that atypical. A lot of the foks that I meet on a day to day basis have been playing WoW for years and many of them have had the same type of experience I've had, but we've all had one thing in common, we got into a guild. We all realized right away that PUG's are just not nearly as good as grouping up with folks you know.
I know what most of you are going to say. "Well lucky for you, but that's not what happend to me." Well I don't think it's luck. I just realized that if I really wanted to enjoy myself, it's better to do it with people that I know and have a reasonable expectation of playing with again. Why do you think WoW even has a "Friends" list? It's not there for show people. It's there for a reason. Same thing goes for guilds.
And don't make the mistake of thinking that guilds are a WoW thing or even an MMO thing. They are not. Almost every organized activity has something akin to a guild. I used to play a lot of softball and I got on a softball team where I met a bunch of great guys and loved playing with them. You think it would have been nearly as fun to just show up at the ball field and play with whomever? Please. It can't compare.
Alright, well I'm rambling now so I'll wrap this up and just say that I believe that if the only thing you have experienced is PUG's, then you have missed the ball completely on MMO's. Get in a guild and see what fun really is, then come back here and tell me I'm wrong.
I have been in guilds in WoW. It's one of the first things I do every time I come back to the game.
But I guess I have to repeat this one more time -- I am a casual player.
As such, I cannot keep up with the leveling pace of the more hardcore members of a guild. Of course there are casual guilds, but in those you seldom see the same people from one session to the next, and there are hardly ever more than 2 people online in the same level range.
So I helped co-found a guild, made up mostly of casual players, intent on sticking together so we could have a fun group-oriented experience in WoW. It was really, really hard. But we stuck with it, and eventually got into a rhythm for about a month. But then real life events made some members miss group nights here and there and it got really hard again trying to keep the group together. Now half the members have moved to AoC, where I assume they are soloing themselves silly.
But see the problem here? A casual player cannot approach a game in the way you assume is so natural and perfect. Someone who doesn't play the game every single night of his life is simply not going to be able form the close relationships or keep up with leveling pace.
That's why PUGs are necessary -- absolutely necessary, for a casual player.
Please don't tell me I have missed the point of MMOs. I have approached WoW from every angle I can as a casual player, and I am here to tell you that, for casual players, WoW is not group friendly. It's a very fun game in many respects, but casual grouping is one area where it fails hard.
Hexx, I feel for you, because you have only experienced for 1 month what I have experienced for 3.5 years and I'll tell you what, nothing compares. Nothing. But don't give up. Just because it hasn't happend for you yet, doesn't mean it won't. It has nothing to do with you being a casual player or the game you play. Most of the guys that I play with are very casual themselves. They play maybe once or twice a week for maybe a couple hours at a time, but there's enough of us in the guild that even though some of them are only on a very limited amount of time, there's almost never a night that goes by that at least 2 of us aren't on.
I told you it would be difficult what you were attempting to do, stay together and level together. I have tried to do that myself several times and it almost never works. What you have to do instead is find 8 or 10 guys who are casual like you that only play a couple times a week and create a guild. Don't try to stay together. Each of you plays at your own pace, but whenever you are on group up and help each other out. Each of you can have a couple different alts so that you can switch to your character that is closest to the level as one of your guild mates when they are on. Forget about healer/tank and just group up. Forget about instances too unless maybe you have like 3 or 4 of you on at once and then go do an instance. Don't pick an instance that you have to find a 4th or 5th for, go to an instance that suits the 3 or 4 of you. If you have to do one that's a few levels below you, that's ok, because the point of grouping up is NOT to get a lot of XP and level up but to be grouped up and enjoying yourselves together.
And one final thing. Get headsets and get ventrilo. I've told you before and I'm telling you again there is nothing like being able to talk with others while playing. Typing doesn't compare. Everything I just said I could have said in like 2 minutes, but it's taken me like 10 mins to type it. Jokes are 10 times funnier when you hear the person saying it. Laughs are 10 times better than ROFLMAO. Swearing has 10 times more impact when said in vent. Just trust me on this.
It can happen for you too Hexx and when it does, I think you'll see things in a whole new light.
That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Getting back to our original discussion Hexx, you once wrote the above about CoX. I could have written the exact same thing about WoW only replace the word "defender" with "Priest, Paladin, Shaman or Druid". That's 4 of the 9 available classes in WoW which is nearly half. Just how tough is it to find one of these classes? It's not hard at all. The problem is that groups don't just want one of these, they want a "holy" Priest or Paladin or a "resto" Shaman or Druid when it's not really needed. This is a red flag indicating that this was a clueless team destined for wipe after wipe. My thoughts exactly.
I understand what you are saying, really I do. But your advice comes with so many caveats and conditions! Why should I bend over backwards to sometimes be able to group and generally forget about the content I find most interesting (instances)? Your words, not mine.
Why would I choose to sort-of be able to group sometimes in WoW when I can group anytime I want with a lot less effort in CoH?
The answer, of course, is that WoW has better content. But that is not what we are debating. I was not asking for advice in how to enjoy WoW. I was stating a case that WoW is not a good game for casual players who like to group. And I still believe it's not, and I know I'm not alone in this.
No, it's not because of the content in WoW, it's because the end result is SO much better. You think grouping is grouping and I can tell you flat out that grouping is NOT grouping. There is PUG grouping and there is grouping within a guild.
Have you ever played a team sport like Basketball where you go to the local YMCA and just get in a PUG? Is it fun? Sure it's fun. But have you ever been on a Basketball team that played in a league? One where you met up to play? Shared the same uniform? Kept track of wins and losses for your team? Where you learned how to play as a team rather than just be 5 individuals on a court who's points just happen to get added together? There's a BIG difference. It's night and day. And if you have never experienced that, then I can understand why you don't agree with me, but if you have than I think you are either ignoring the fact being in a WoW guild is like that or you just don't believe it can be like that. It can be.
ive read, in WAR, when u enter a new area, u will asked if u want to do a special group quest, if u say yes, u will be grouped automaticly, and can make the quest.
I didn't bother to read all of this, but I agree totally with the OP. Not only about the grouping aspect, which I could see either way on that. I liked one guys post about the circle, games were about grouping, then solo and then back to grouping. That seems kinda reasonable to me, especially with all the different types of MMO players out there.
What I really liked about what the OP said was that games are too EASY. I want to walk out at the beginning and get totally owned too. I want to try multiple times and fail trying to beat the first mob I see. I want to have to climb to the top of a tower and shoot the bastard before he reaches me, because I know if he reaches me I'm dead.
Plus whoever it was talking about guilds in WoW...guilds in WoW are nothing compared to old MMO's. The fact that I could have a guild house in AC was huge. I'd log in and see my guild members simply hangin' out around the house buffing each other getting ready for another adventure. The coolest thing about that is that people aren't the green text in the chat box in your lower left hand corner. They are there, right next to you, everytime you log on.
It all just adds so much more to guilds. But whatever I'm getting lengthy.