Why should I bend over backwards to sometimes be able to group and generally forget about the content I find most interesting (instances)? Why would I choose to sort-of be able to group sometimes in WoW when I can group anytime I want with a lot less effort in CoH?
No, it's not because of the content in WoW, it's because the end result is SO much better. You think grouping is grouping and I can tell you flat out that grouping is NOT grouping. There is PUG grouping and there is grouping within a guild.
Have you ever played a team sport like Basketball where you go to the local YMCA and just get in a PUG? Is it fun? Sure it's fun. But have you ever been on a Basketball team that played in a league? One where you met up to play? Shared the same uniform? Kept track of wins and losses for your team? Where you learned how to play as a team rather than just be 5 individuals on a court who's points just happen to get added together? There's a BIG difference. It's night and day. And if you have never experienced that, then I can understand why you don't agree with me, but if you have than I think you are either ignoring the fact being in a WoW guild is like that or you just don't believe it can be like that. It can be.
Actually I hate team sports, and I don't CARE what guild grouping in WoW can be, because it is not something I will ever be able to participate in. And also it is beside the point.
I know you think WoW is The Perfect Game. And I'm sure it is, for you. But you have a huge blind spot, Pappy, when it comes to recognizing that other players have different play styles and different needs.
I need PUGs. I enjoy them. I want to be in them with other people who enjoy them. And I want a game that makes that possible. And that game is not World of Warcraft.
can I point Everquest wasn't "forced grouping" either. It was more incenting to group- people did solo. In the actual Everquest manual there is a rating for how well different classes could solo or group, solo was part of the game. Everquest was just more group-based.
Lastly, I'll make an interesting point on WoW. There are many reasons why there is a very heavy solo-bias to the level cap like too fast levelling, too strict grouping requirements- and people looking specifically for group makeups etc etc. But, there is another overlooked idea why that is. Basically, there are people that want to group and there are people that want to solo. That's fine, but what you want is the people that want to group to be incented to do that. WoW's method is a quest or instance is done, and that isn't needed to be done again, the people who have done that don't need to do it again and move on, especially as by doing it again they get no sort of 'incentive' to do that. First time you do an instance you have a multitude of quests to complete which when you complete them gives you a sizeable xp incentive- once you've done them you no longer have that. The 'potential' groupers then move on and go back to soloing- and this is a problem.
For instance, if someone shouts on /ooc 'can I get help with x and y quest', if the 'potential grouper' who would be willing to group with that person to do those quests has already done those quests, then he isn't going to reply. Result- two extra soloers. If, there was an incentive for a person to do a quest again, or do an instance again then the game favours grouping better.
Originally posted by eowdaoc Oh and by the way, I hate WoW and think it should burn in hell, coming from a veteran MMO player. Imo it has definitely hurt the market in more ways than it has helped.
Now now I do get it that people dislike games. But don't you think it's a wee "crazy" to blame a game to hurt an industry while you should blame developers? Blizzard made a game, a lot of people liked it and played it. So far I haven't seen anything wrong with doing that. If people dumb down mmo's & copy wow because of it being a success, then clearly those are the ones you need to point your anger to.
I play wow since launch and it has as much annoying things then good things for me. (been saying since release how shallow the game is ) but what got me fed up with the so called depth and new killer games is they are damn unfinished every time. That's blizzards strenght, a finished game with not too much bugs.
Look at most new mmo releases, it could have been good if they would have just delivered a full working product. But no you get stupid fan boy's going: ooh but it's just in open beta (this can be defended a bit) then they go: but it just launched and after that just give it some time! Stop accepting that crap since you're saying to those developers it's okay to launch a game that's not even finished.
I've experienced SWG, heard lies for years, put up with bugs just since there wasn't anything out there with such a potential. Now you even see cookie cutter mmo's released that are unfinished... Nice evolution...
I think the question is are you really having fun doing the quests? I thought the '!' was a great idea in WoW, but the more I use it the less I am actually thinking in any way. The '!', the '?', and the 'X', are all bad for the mind as it takes away any thinking involved in the game. This doesn't seem very good for the mind IMO. I believe you may end up feeling good about yourself because you are able to click on '!' and follow the mini map to 'X'. In reality this is a nearly mindless act. You are following these icons around all day long. I hope Devs try attempt to come up with something a little more complex in the future.
I know this is my frist post ever on here. Thou I have I have been coming to these forms for along time now.
I would like to just chime in on this topic. What I have at least for me discovered is this. You get pentalized for grouping in WOW. What I mean by this is that you get crap XP for it. Why would anybody group at all unless you really had too. The xp reward for doing it is just not worth it. I would love to group more if I could but most people just dont want to for this very reason alone.
The other reason I see too is this. Somepeople are just to rude. And once you have ran into some of these rude poeple. Then everyone becames a noob, scurb, or just got no skill. I mean sometimes I wonder where do I fall in. Am I a noob, scrub, or just got no skill. I like to think that I am a nice guy. I like to think I play this game ok. But this is how we treat each other. It is too bad too because most people are not this way but we have conviced ourselves the they are. But I guess it is easy to be a jerk behind a keyboard, monitor, and 500 mile between everyone. It is just a few who kill the feel for everyone else.
Lastly is this. Gear and stats. If you dont have either nobody wants anything to do with ya. But I cant get the gear or stats unless someone is will to run with me. It is a no win problem for the casual.
I am in a guild, I have played since day one. The problem is just as bad in some guilds as it is in pugs. I dont have the answers. But these are some of things I have seen
Yea right. You guys all say this crap. Until you have no quests and don't know what the hell to do. Then you go and bash the game creators.
Just like with PvP. Losing all items when you die. Didn't a game make that option besides Runescape? Yea..Pretty sure they did. What happened to that game? Hmm....definetely ain't no WoW, tell you that much.
So much talk, but in the end. Quests is what works. It doesn't matter what you guys say.
I also would like to add this point. I dont blame the game for the grouping problem. I blame us the player. We wep what we sow. If you treat people nicely you will have groups. But we treat each other like trash so no wonder there is a grouping problem.
But of course this IMO. I could be very very wrong.
Why do MMOs now babyfeed people? maybe i could answer...because there are more little guys start to play games when they are just at 10 years old..however they are rich enough..so game companies also want to earn ..from them..surely.
Actually I hate team sports... Which is a fundamental difference between you and I. , and I don't CARE what guild grouping in WoW can be, because it is not something I will ever be able to participate in. Your choice. And also it is beside the point. No, it is the point. You and I have different opinions on what makes grouping enjoyable. I know you think WoW is The Perfect Game. And I'm sure it is, for you. No, it has it's flaws. Crafting and Exploration take a back seat to combat for example. I'd prefer something along the lines of E&B in that regard. But combat in WoW is far superior to E&B, so it's a give and take. But you have a huge blind spot, Pappy, when it comes to recognizing that other players have different play styles and different needs. I feel the same about you. I need PUGs. I enjoy them. I want to be in them with other people who enjoy them. And I want a game that makes that possible. And that game is not World of Warcraft. Fair enough. WoW's a good group game for those who prefer the company of friends. CoX is better for grouping with strangers. That would seem to make sense considering our differing points of view.
They cater to their audience. This isnt wrong but it is boring. We need publishers and developers to cater to the hardcore gamer. This is were youll find your game.
Hardcore gamers can't support all that many niche MMOs, let alone a single high profile one. There simply aren't enough of you anymore=) Most of us that used to be hardcore, whatever that means, are now grown up and have found there's no point to it anymore. Better to play a game to have fun.
Comments
No, it's not because of the content in WoW, it's because the end result is SO much better. You think grouping is grouping and I can tell you flat out that grouping is NOT grouping. There is PUG grouping and there is grouping within a guild.
Have you ever played a team sport like Basketball where you go to the local YMCA and just get in a PUG? Is it fun? Sure it's fun. But have you ever been on a Basketball team that played in a league? One where you met up to play? Shared the same uniform? Kept track of wins and losses for your team? Where you learned how to play as a team rather than just be 5 individuals on a court who's points just happen to get added together? There's a BIG difference. It's night and day. And if you have never experienced that, then I can understand why you don't agree with me, but if you have than I think you are either ignoring the fact being in a WoW guild is like that or you just don't believe it can be like that. It can be.
Actually I hate team sports, and I don't CARE what guild grouping in WoW can be, because it is not something I will ever be able to participate in. And also it is beside the point.
I know you think WoW is The Perfect Game. And I'm sure it is, for you. But you have a huge blind spot, Pappy, when it comes to recognizing that other players have different play styles and different needs.
I need PUGs. I enjoy them. I want to be in them with other people who enjoy them. And I want a game that makes that possible. And that game is not World of Warcraft.
good post by the OP. Though just one anal point, DAoC had Battleground instances if I recall.
can I point Everquest wasn't "forced grouping" either. It was more incenting to group- people did solo. In the actual Everquest manual there is a rating for how well different classes could solo or group, solo was part of the game. Everquest was just more group-based.
Lastly, I'll make an interesting point on WoW. There are many reasons why there is a very heavy solo-bias to the level cap like too fast levelling, too strict grouping requirements- and people looking specifically for group makeups etc etc. But, there is another overlooked idea why that is. Basically, there are people that want to group and there are people that want to solo. That's fine, but what you want is the people that want to group to be incented to do that. WoW's method is a quest or instance is done, and that isn't needed to be done again, the people who have done that don't need to do it again and move on, especially as by doing it again they get no sort of 'incentive' to do that. First time you do an instance you have a multitude of quests to complete which when you complete them gives you a sizeable xp incentive- once you've done them you no longer have that. The 'potential' groupers then move on and go back to soloing- and this is a problem.
For instance, if someone shouts on /ooc 'can I get help with x and y quest', if the 'potential grouper' who would be willing to group with that person to do those quests has already done those quests, then he isn't going to reply. Result- two extra soloers. If, there was an incentive for a person to do a quest again, or do an instance again then the game favours grouping better.
Now now I do get it that people dislike games. But don't you think it's a wee "crazy" to blame a game to hurt an industry while you should blame developers? Blizzard made a game, a lot of people liked it and played it. So far I haven't seen anything wrong with doing that. If people dumb down mmo's & copy wow because of it being a success, then clearly those are the ones you need to point your anger to.
I play wow since launch and it has as much annoying things then good things for me. (been saying since release how shallow the game is
) but what got me fed up with the so called depth and new killer games is they are damn unfinished every time. That's blizzards strenght, a finished game with not too much bugs.
Look at most new mmo releases, it could have been good if they would have just delivered a full working product. But no you get stupid fan boy's going: ooh but it's just in open beta (this can be defended a bit) then they go: but it just launched and after that just give it some time! Stop accepting that crap since you're saying to those developers it's okay to launch a game that's not even finished.
I've experienced SWG, heard lies for years, put up with bugs just since there wasn't anything out there with such a potential. Now you even see cookie cutter mmo's released that are unfinished... Nice evolution...
I think the question is are you really having fun doing the quests? I thought the '!' was a great idea in WoW, but the more I use it the less I am actually thinking in any way. The '!', the '?', and the 'X', are all bad for the mind as it takes away any thinking involved in the game. This doesn't seem very good for the mind IMO. I believe you may end up feeling good about yourself because you are able to click on '!' and follow the mini map to 'X'. In reality this is a nearly mindless act. You are following these icons around all day long. I hope Devs try attempt to come up with something a little more complex in the future.
Hello everyone,
I know this is my frist post ever on here. Thou I have I have been coming to these forms for along time now.
I would like to just chime in on this topic. What I have at least for me discovered is this. You get pentalized for grouping in WOW. What I mean by this is that you get crap XP for it. Why would anybody group at all unless you really had too. The xp reward for doing it is just not worth it. I would love to group more if I could but most people just dont want to for this very reason alone.
The other reason I see too is this. Somepeople are just to rude. And once you have ran into some of these rude poeple. Then everyone becames a noob, scurb, or just got no skill. I mean sometimes I wonder where do I fall in. Am I a noob, scrub, or just got no skill. I like to think that I am a nice guy. I like to think I play this game ok. But this is how we treat each other. It is too bad too because most people are not this way but we have conviced ourselves the they are. But I guess it is easy to be a jerk behind a keyboard, monitor, and 500 mile between everyone. It is just a few who kill the feel for everyone else.
Lastly is this. Gear and stats. If you dont have either nobody wants anything to do with ya. But I cant get the gear or stats unless someone is will to run with me. It is a no win problem for the casual.
I am in a guild, I have played since day one. The problem is just as bad in some guilds as it is in pugs. I dont have the answers. But these are some of things I have seen
Tim
Yea right. You guys all say this crap. Until you have no quests and don't know what the hell to do. Then you go and bash the game creators.
Just like with PvP. Losing all items when you die. Didn't a game make that option besides Runescape? Yea..Pretty sure they did. What happened to that game? Hmm....definetely ain't no WoW, tell you that much.
So much talk, but in the end. Quests is what works. It doesn't matter what you guys say.
Hello everyone,
I also would like to add this point. I dont blame the game for the grouping problem. I blame us the player. We wep what we sow. If you treat people nicely you will have groups. But we treat each other like trash so no wonder there is a grouping problem.
But of course this IMO. I could be very very wrong.
Tim
you need to play eve imo
since they have becom Solo frendly, I have yet to play a Mmo for longer then 2 months.
101 stupid quest Mmo's suck.
RPG was always done in a group of 4 to 8 players and a Dungon Master.
Until they bring back Groups to a new Mmo Im not wasting my money.
I'm back to Table top games with the books .
Thats what i was playing befor MMo's and that i'll stay.
Why do MMOs now babyfeed people? maybe i could answer...because there are more little guys start to play games when they are just at 10 years old..however they are rich enough..so game companies also want to earn ..from them..surely.
They cater to their audience. This isnt wrong but it is boring. We need publishers and developers to cater to the hardcore gamer. This is were youll find your game.
Hardcore gamers can't support all that many niche MMOs, let alone a single high profile one. There simply aren't enough of you anymore=) Most of us that used to be hardcore, whatever that means, are now grown up and have found there's no point to it anymore. Better to play a game to have fun.
So.. you dont like instanced pvp..? ive only played one game with it.. wow... explore the other 300 games..
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IVE PLAYED WOW AND LIKED IT SO IM A FANBOI PLZ FLAME MY THREADS CUZ I MIGHT MENTION WOW