Well i went to the rohan site and didnt see anything to overt in the sex stuff. As far as tastefuly doing a sex type thing in a game i think bioware did this very well with mass effect. Sex sells like many others have said and this is a business and they need money. Just this monday I was able to get a computer that for the first time could keep up with the games I like playing. Graphics dont need to keep getting upgraded, it should be something like 80/20 content/graphics.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
I think there's a disturbing stuff going on with MMOs nowadays. Here are some that I can think off at the moment. For me..these are sickening to some extend.. 1. Developers tend to focus more on the graphics rather than the game itself ; value of replayability 2. Based on #1, games are most of the times ridden with bugs and instability (Age of Conan, Rohan and Hellgate London comes to mind) 3. Based on #1, players HAVE to upgrade their system just for the sake of playing it 4. Most MMOs depicting female characters with big breasts and half naked costumes for games developed for the general audience and players (unless rated 'M', like AOC) 5. Encouraging youngsters to spend money pointlessly. 6. Inserting into youngsters's mentality that high level characters and big sum of money in any games makes you a somebody, and not school grades which should have been focused on.
What say you? Am I just thinking too much?
I agree with you pretty much. But the trend will turn around as far as #1 and #3 go. They will start producing games with less steep requirements when they see that games like Vanguard and AoC will never have the success that WoW does- because of it's lesser requirements. Warhammer is coming out the end of this year and the requirements are very gentle and it will do extremely well I think!
And #4- that's our culture now sadly. I think it started happening when MTV came out honestly. Women were dressed scantily and portrayed as slutty and that was a new phenomona on TV.
Just look at different games though because some are more respectful to women-.I know in Vanguard they had a slider so you could make your lady toon look smaller chested. And in LoTRO- the Devs made the women quite elegant looking and there's no revealing armor in the game at all and NEVER will be.
I think there's a disturbing stuff going on with MMOs nowadays. Here are some that I can think off at the moment. For me..these are sickening to some extend.. 1. Developers tend to focus more on the graphics rather than the game itself ; value of replayability
Rigs are getting more powerful all the time. Developers are pushing the envelope graphically and I think that is commendable. Focusing on graphics to the detriment of other aspects of the the game though is wrong. 'Sickening' is too strong a word though.
2. Based on #1, games are most of the times ridden with bugs and instability (Age of Conan, Rohan and Hellgate London comes to mind)
I don't think the pursuit of graphical excellence necessarily leads to your conclusion in #2.
Based on #1, players HAVE to upgrade their system just for the sake of playing it
No one 'has' to do anything. We make a choice whether or not we want to play a game.
4. Most MMOs depicting female characters with big breasts and half naked costumes for games developed for the general audience and players (unless rated 'M', like AOC)
Not sure what is sickening about big breasted women or half naked costumes. Probably the majority of men (not all), who are a large segment of mmo subscriber base, prefer women with medium to large breasts. Even women prefer to have larger breasts as evidenced by many who get breast enhancements. 5. Encouraging youngsters to spend money pointlessly.
Spending money isn't pointless. It helps to make companies rich, and the kids have fun in the process.
6. Inserting into youngsters's mentality that high level characters and big sum of money in any games makes you a somebody, and not school grades which should have been focused on.
The purpose of the game is to have fun. Whether it's excelling at football or at Unreal Tournament, some people will get a big head if they are good. This is just human nature.
What say you? Am I just thinking too much?
Hard to say as this is really a subjective thing. But in general, if you get a headache after posting it is too much.
I think there's a disturbing stuff going on with MMOs nowadays. Here are some that I can think off at the moment. For me..these are sickening to some extend.. 1. Developers tend to focus more on the graphics rather than the game itself ; value of replayability 2. Based on #1, games are most of the times ridden with bugs and instability (Age of Conan, Rohan and Hellgate London comes to mind) 3. Based on #1, players HAVE to upgrade their system just for the sake of playing it 4. Most MMOs depicting female characters with big breasts and half naked costumes for games developed for the general audience and players (unless rated 'M', like AOC) 5. Encouraging youngsters to spend money pointlessly. 6. Inserting into youngsters's mentality that high level characters and big sum of money in any games makes you a somebody, and not school grades which should have been focused on.
What say you? Am I just thinking too much?
Wow..with the new games you have listed and you are just now discovering a LONG TERM problem you shouldn't complain. This problem started a long time ago even with wow and before. EQ release was horrible by todays standards and its now considered a classic. Remember wow with the 10min lag-out and constant rollbacks the first couple months? No, I guess not.
MMOs cost the same as any console game (less even) and you get 30days before you pay a subscription. I have had a ton of console games I didn't play more than 5hrs. But all the MMOs I've bought..even the really really bad ones I played more than 5 hours.
edit; ianubisi I should have read your post first I wouldn't have posted this.
Instanced: reduce server and client load, yet reduce the fun of an ever changing, interactive, unexpectable MMORPG outdoor world too.
Instancing is a GOOD thing and it is not going to go away. There is no fun is a campfest waiting in line of 50 to kill the boss. EQ taught us that.
People like you kill the current and future MMORPG, of course crowd in outdoor is bad, but this is a problem to solve, not to be avoided, and when you avoid it by instancing, it is not an MMORPG anymore, go back to play your diablo2?
MMO played (paid): AION DragonRaja Dungeons & Dragons Online Lineage Lineage 2 Tibia Ultima Online Warhammer Online World of Warcraft
MMO tried: Atlantica Online Darkfall Dead Frontier Dungeon Runners EverQuest Lord of the Rings Online Monster Hunter Frontier Online Ragnarok Online Requiem Runes of Magic Runescape The 4th Coming
Instancing is the single worst mechanic to ever be introduced into MMOs. It's a crutch that pathetically uninspired developers use to solve "crowding" issues in an MMO. I guess they don't give a shit what that first "M" stands for.
Why make a compelling game when you can just stuff every player into their own self-contained vacuum?
Instanced: reduce server and client load, yet reduce the fun of an ever changing, interactive, unexpectable MMORPG outdoor world too.
Instancing is a GOOD thing and it is not going to go away. There is no fun is a campfest waiting in line of 50 to kill the boss. EQ taught us that.
People like you kill the current and future MMORPG, of course crowd in outdoor is bad, but this is a problem to solve, not to be avoided, and when you avoid it by instancing, it is not an MMORPG anymore, go back to play your diablo2?
Ok stud you sound like you have all the answers. Please enlighten us how would you fix over crowding? I'm no fan of how wow did instances per group but an instance allowing X number of people would be far better then going back to UOs no instances and fighting people over each and ever spawn.
Originally posted by Venger Ok stud you sound like you have all the answers. Please enlighten us how would you fix over crowding? I'm no fan of how wow did instances per group but an instance allowing X number of people would be far better then going back to UOs no instances and fighting people over each and ever spawn.
I will try to solve it if I am a game developer, but sadly I am not.
Instancing is just against the basic concept of MMORPG, if you hate seeing people then there was a type of game which is lobby game (e.g. diablo), you open a room with a few or up to around twenty players from the lobby then play with them inside the game room. Which is the so-called MMORPG tend to now.
I am not saying that kind of game sucks but just don't mix them with MMORPG.
MMO played (paid): AION DragonRaja Dungeons & Dragons Online Lineage Lineage 2 Tibia Ultima Online Warhammer Online World of Warcraft
MMO tried: Atlantica Online Darkfall Dead Frontier Dungeon Runners EverQuest Lord of the Rings Online Monster Hunter Frontier Online Ragnarok Online Requiem Runes of Magic Runescape The 4th Coming
People only cry about non-instancing for one reason: loot whoring.
So the answer is to solve loot whoring. It's actually really, really simple. Here are a few ideas:
1. Don't make mob bosses statically located;
2. Don't make mob bosses drop unique loot that can only be obtained via that one single mob;
3. Use a player based economy that functions on component, item enhancer, and resource drops rather than shitty whole loot systems that cuts out crafting.
And that's just what I thought of in thirty seconds. Imagine if I spent ten minutes on this.
Originally posted by Venger Ok stud you sound like you have all the answers. Please enlighten us how would you fix over crowding? I'm no fan of how wow did instances per group but an instance allowing X number of people would be far better then going back to UOs no instances and fighting people over each and ever spawn.
I will try to solve it if I am a game developer, but sadly I am not.
Instancing is just against the basic concept of MMORPG, if you hate seeing people then there was a type of game which is lobby game (e.g. diablo), you open a room with a few or up to around twenty players from the lobby then play with them inside the game room. Which is the so-called MMORPG tend to now.
I am not saying that kind of game sucks but just don't mix them with MMORPG.
You mean you can't even imagine any idea that could work instead of instances?
Here I throw out a couple and I'm not a mmo designer.
A. Dynamic spawning, ie the more mobs that are killed the more that spawn, but would get very crowded if you have several people killing in the same area.
B. Literally a ton of dungeons so the masses could spread out more, but if dungeon A is more profitable or offers X items while B doesn't then everyone will still crowd A.
C. Instant dungeon not like wow party ones but allow lets say 50 people in a dungeon before a new one is created. AoC is pretty similar they have multiple instances of the same dungeon but not something that is for you or your group only.
People only cry about non-instancing for one reason: loot whoring. So the answer is to solve loot whoring. It's actually really, really simple. Here are a few ideas: 1. Don't make mob bosses statically located; 2. Don't make mob bosses drop unique loot that can only be obtained via that one single mob; 3. Use a player based economy that functions on component, item enhancer, and resource drops rather than shitty whole loot systems that cuts out crafting. And that's just what I thought of in thirty seconds. Imagine if I spent ten minutes on this.
Yes or people could actually want to play the game they are paying for. UO had no dungeon bosses but the dungeons were still very crowded. Do you think if you take away boss mobs people will stop hunting in dungeons?
I'd love a player based economy because I like to craft. But just like crafting gets the shit end of the stick now you can't do the same to hunters. You need to find a happy medium.
Yes or people could actually want to play the game they are paying for. UO had no dungeon bosses but the dungeons were still very crowded. Do you think if you take away boss mobs people will stop hunting in dungeons?
I'd love a player based economy because I like to craft. But just like crafting gets the shit end of the stick now you can't do the same to hunters. You need to find a happy medium.
No people, won't stop hunting in dungeons. So just have enough dungeons to keep your server population evenly distributed between them. Or give people fun shit to do that isn't centered a dungeon (dungeons are kind of retarded anyways). It's simple.
And how do crafters get the shit end of the stick? In every truly player run economy crafters are always at the top rung in terms of wealth. And not just by a little; but by a shit ton.
Please, you're exactly the reason why MMOs today suck ass.
I think there's a disturbing stuff going on with MMOs nowadays. Here are some that I can think off at the moment. For me..these are sickening to some extend.. 1. Developers tend to focus more on the graphics rather than the game itself ; value of replayability 2. Based on #1, games are most of the times ridden with bugs and instability (Age of Conan, Rohan and Hellgate London comes to mind) 3. Based on #1, players HAVE to upgrade their system just for the sake of playing it 4. Most MMOs depicting female characters with big breasts and half naked costumes for games developed for the general audience and players (unless rated 'M', like AOC) 5. Encouraging youngsters to spend money pointlessly. 6. Inserting into youngsters's mentality that high level characters and big sum of money in any games makes you a somebody, and not school grades which should have been focused on.
What say you? Am I just thinking too much?
1. True. Hiding the lack of a soul, graphics tend to have become the main preoccupation of developers.
2. Probably, yes. Although bugs and instability have several different reasons, not least the high complexity of these games themselves.
3. Yup. On the other hand, particularly since development time have become so long, developers want their games to live for an extended period of time, thus high end graphics and design for high end machines also have inherent causes.
4.) Depiction of females should vary with the subject matter of games. In other words, what is right for Conan is plain wrong in Middle Earth.
5) Not much we can do about youngsters pointlessly spending cash, I'm afraid. That story is as old as the industrial revolution.
6) What angers me is rather the idea being inserted that every youngster somehow deserves reaching the top of the game, being the "hero" and that he should be guaranteed reaching such a goal if he only "works hard enough" (i.e pretty much like school). It totally obfuscates the virtual adventure environment as a game of chance and fate.
Yes or people could actually want to play the game they are paying for. UO had no dungeon bosses but the dungeons were still very crowded. Do you think if you take away boss mobs people will stop hunting in dungeons?
I'd love a player based economy because I like to craft. But just like crafting gets the shit end of the stick now you can't do the same to hunters. You need to find a happy medium.
No people, won't stop hunting in dungeons. So just have enough dungeons to keep your server population evenly distributed between them. Or give people fun shit to do that isn't centered a dungeon (dungeons are kind of retarded anyways). It's simple.
And how do crafters get the shit end of the stick? In every truly player run economy crafters are always at the top rung in terms of wealth. And not just by a little; but by a shit ton.
Please, you're exactly the reason why MMOs today suck ass.
How is having 10 dungeons different from having 1 dungeon instanted 10 times? The population would still be spread out between the same land mass. Plus developer would have to design 10 different dungeons slowing down production. If you give people stuff to do outside of dungeons then guess what those places will get over crowded just like dungeons. Yes dungeons are stupid. Your simple fixes fix nothing.
You need to supply enough playing space for everyone. If people can't find stuff to kill because everything is camped to hell and back people leave.
Crafter get the shit end of the stick now not in a player based system, but like I say you can't go from one extreme to the next.
If you want to fix mmos you need to take what works and fix what doesn't. Instances can work if done right. Going backwards as you seam to think is a great idea will only bring back the old problems. You need to think and be innovative if you want things to get better.
You mean you can't even imagine any idea that could work instead of instances?
Here I throw out a couple and I'm not a mmo designer. A. Dynamic spawning, ie the more mobs that are killed the more that spawn, but would get very crowded if you have several people killing in the same area. B. Literally a ton of dungeons so the masses could spread out more, but if dungeon A is more profitable or offers X items while B doesn't then everyone will still crowd A. C. Instant dungeon not like wow party ones but allow lets say 50 people in a dungeon before a new one is created. AoC is pretty similar they have multiple instances of the same dungeon but not something that is for you or your group only.
I mean I am doing a difficult assignment so I just want to read forum to relax instead of thinking.
Server is actually a big copy of instance, so it is ok to spread the people.
But instances within a server is bad, because it's one big world.
I don't feel any of the old style non-instanced MMORPGs have serious crowd problem if the place are large and enough hunting places/dungeons/servers to spread the people.
And boss spawn shouldn't be "camped", yes its good to have dynamic and random spawn.
In fact I hate grinding in an area, I prefer the hunting style is you walk around and search for your prey.
Btw what is AoC's instancing like? I am interested yet my computer cannot afford it.
MMO played (paid): AION DragonRaja Dungeons & Dragons Online Lineage Lineage 2 Tibia Ultima Online Warhammer Online World of Warcraft
MMO tried: Atlantica Online Darkfall Dead Frontier Dungeon Runners EverQuest Lord of the Rings Online Monster Hunter Frontier Online Ragnarok Online Requiem Runes of Magic Runescape The 4th Coming
Originally posted by Venger Ok stud you sound like you have all the answers. Please enlighten us how would you fix over crowding? I'm no fan of how wow did instances per group but an instance allowing X number of people would be far better then going back to UOs no instances and fighting people over each and ever spawn.
I will try to solve it if I am a game developer, but sadly I am not.
Instancing is just against the basic concept of MMORPG, if you hate seeing people then there was a type of game which is lobby game (e.g. diablo), you open a room with a few or up to around twenty players from the lobby then play with them inside the game room. Which is the so-called MMORPG tend to now.
I am not saying that kind of game sucks but just don't mix them with MMORPG.
You mean you can't even imagine any idea that could work instead of instances?
Here I throw out a couple and I'm not a mmo designer.
A. Dynamic spawning, ie the more mobs that are killed the more that spawn, but would get very crowded if you have several people killing in the same area.
B. Literally a ton of dungeons so the masses could spread out more, but if dungeon A is more profitable or offers X items while B doesn't then everyone will still crowd A.
C. Instant dungeon not like wow party ones but allow lets say 50 people in a dungeon before a new one is created. AoC is pretty similar they have multiple instances of the same dungeon but not something that is for you or your group only.
A) This is done already in games like WOW. However, you can't control for the difficulty of the fight as well as instancing.
This is a non-solution. Dungeons cost money to make. That is why there is only a limited number of them even in expensive games like WOW. I don't think any MMO developers can afford to make enough dungeons to house everyone who wants to go into one. Obviously you can make dungeons the same without incurring much additional costs .. but you may as well just do instances.
C) This may be a solution but why 50? It is difficult to control the difficulty of a dungeon with variable number. If you want a high number of players .. go for a raid. Those takes 25 people. Having said that, the trend is to allowing smaller and smaller group that can finish a dungeon.
C) This may be a solution but why 50? It is difficult to control the difficulty of a dungeon with variable number. If you want a high number of players .. go for a raid. Those takes 25 people. Having said that, the trend is to allowing smaller and smaller group that can finish a dungeon.
"Finishing" is a bad idea in MMORPG.
MMO played (paid): AION DragonRaja Dungeons & Dragons Online Lineage Lineage 2 Tibia Ultima Online Warhammer Online World of Warcraft
MMO tried: Atlantica Online Darkfall Dead Frontier Dungeon Runners EverQuest Lord of the Rings Online Monster Hunter Frontier Online Ragnarok Online Requiem Runes of Magic Runescape The 4th Coming
You mean you can't even imagine any idea that could work instead of instances?
Here I throw out a couple and I'm not a mmo designer. A. Dynamic spawning, ie the more mobs that are killed the more that spawn, but would get very crowded if you have several people killing in the same area. B. Literally a ton of dungeons so the masses could spread out more, but if dungeon A is more profitable or offers X items while B doesn't then everyone will still crowd A. C. Instant dungeon not like wow party ones but allow lets say 50 people in a dungeon before a new one is created. AoC is pretty similar they have multiple instances of the same dungeon but not something that is for you or your group only.
I mean I am doing a difficult assignment so I just want to read forum to relax instead of thinking.
Server is actually a big copy of instance, so it is ok to spread the people.
But instances within a server is bad, because it's one big world.
I don't feel any of the old style non-instanced MMORPGs have serious crowd problem if the place are large and enough hunting places/dungeons/servers to spread the people.
And boss spawn shouldn't be "camped", yes its good to have dynamic and random spawn.
In fact I hate grinding in an area, I prefer the hunting style is you walk around and search for your prey.
Btw what is AoC's instancing like? I am interested yet my computer cannot afford it.
Bleh there is alway time to screw off.
So to have enough space to spread people out you would either need to design a shit ton of areas and dungeons keeping all of them equally fun and rewarding (no diversity) which would take a lot of time and money or limit server population greatly which greatly increase upkeep cost of servers.
Old game weren't crowded?!? You sure you played UO? There was always a ton of people in shame hunting earthies or the first, air and evil mages on the second and gazers on the 3rd. This was of course post trammel. Pre-trammel most dungeons were farely empty because people feared pkers which is not a good option.
Dungeon bosses should be removed imho.
AoC's instances aren't bad. There are several instance of the same area that multiple people can go in. You are always around random people just not packed in so thick you can't move.
So to have enough space to spread people out you would either need to design a shit ton of areas and dungeons keeping all of them equally fun and rewarding (no diversity) which would take a lot of time and money or limit server population greatly which greatly increase upkeep cost of servers. Old game weren't crowded?!? You sure you played UO? There was always a ton of people in shame hunting earthies or the first, air and evil mages on the second and gazers on the 3rd. This was of course post trammel. Pre-trammel most dungeons were farely empty because people feared pkers which is not a good option. Dungeon bosses should be removed imho. AoC's instances aren't bad. There are several instance of the same area that multiple people can go in. You are always around random people just not packed in so thick you can't move.
Sadly I am in Australia and Oceania doesn't have a lot of people lol.
One problem is that place are getting larger and more coz of patch and expansion, yet players are usually getting less and less.
Well the most things I'm against kind of an instancing system is that you can choose who to be with you by grouping, in a small amount of people, and the instances are created and deleted as a different copy all the time where nothing inside last (i.e that's what make instancing lack of "outside world" feeling, everything you do are then cleared when that copy is deleted).
I also hate the style that you play in this zone at a certain lv then you go to that zone at another certain lv, never going back then, every piece of land should has its meaningful use in different situations or purposes no matter what strength you have.
MMO played (paid): AION DragonRaja Dungeons & Dragons Online Lineage Lineage 2 Tibia Ultima Online Warhammer Online World of Warcraft
MMO tried: Atlantica Online Darkfall Dead Frontier Dungeon Runners EverQuest Lord of the Rings Online Monster Hunter Frontier Online Ragnarok Online Requiem Runes of Magic Runescape The 4th Coming
ROFL, so you predicate on your entire argument on these tenants:
1. There is no difference between separate dungeons that are part of the unified game world and a single dungeon with ten shards;
2. There needs to be room for everyone;
3. Ten dungeons is apparently way too much content for a developer team to handle; and
4. Anything that isn't a dungeon that has stuff to do will become overcrowded (just because, right?).
All I can say to you, sir, is "wow, you truly are the reason why modern MMOs stink." Seriously, your expectations of good game design and MMO evolution could not be any lower. You are the lowest common denominator. Congratulations.
Will your next crusade be on behalf of shitty magazines that stuff their pages with more advertisements than articles and then support them by saying, "writing articles would take time away from getting the periodical out (quality irregardless, right?)."
That is the absurdity of your argument. That a good game is, to you at the very least, simply not feasible and completely incomprehensible. It's sad that this industry pumps out thousands of people like you every year.
Have you ever experienced a non-linear MMO that didn't guide your every step through the game? Doesn't seem like it.
No wonder the MMO hasn't evolved in ten years....
And don't think I'm blowing this out of my ass because in preCU SWG we had a bajillion places to go, including dozens of "dungeons," and spawn camping was never an issue and bear in mind that at the time SWG was the second most successful western MMO in terms of active players behind only EQ1 (roughly 400k active subs in SWG at that time).
So apparently Raph Koster is capable of creating what you can't even comprehend or consider reality.
1. Dynamic spawning could include a procedural AI that maintains swarms of AI and their 'behaviors', but this isn't known within MMOs or even MUDs at this time. So, you'll get the bunk like that it's 'impossible' to do even though it's done in AL program research.
2. It's not that dungeons are needed, rather dungeons need to make themselves through the NPCs. It's about time that developers stop thinking of themselves as makers of games, but as makers of worlds and make tools to maintain a world instead. Whether it's an AI 'trimming' system or an AL ruleset management system (altering constants while the AL system is operating), it's going to be needed for the coming decades as AL and AI become the de facto means to even do complex research in medicine and other sciences. Computer science as a science is not immune to this, and that includes games.
3. Make it possible for players to alter the persistent environment. Yes, let players kill the dragon dead as no more respawn of said dragon and do as I suggested for points 1 and 2 as they would be necessary to generate more 'content.' This would put the pressure off of instancing entirely as such developments would require a total redesign of how to generate game spaces without zones for which one can generate an instance from.
4. Take down the walls around your garden. That means use a single framework for character data, and make it portable between your game and other games that use the same framework as to ensure players can enter and leave your game world with ease. Maybe customer A prefers fantasy MMO 1 over fantasy MMO 2, so let them port their character over with a nominal fee, and courtesy backup (for whenever it seems possible they might return later), to the other game world. It may seem impossible by the assumptions held today, but often we port data between different databases today between hospitals, utility companies, businesses, governmental agencies, and other such institutions which are information driven as much if not more so than an MMO. It also lowers the initial costs for an MMO developer because if you don't have to reinvent the framework for which characters are made, it follows you have a standard from which to use, thus saving precious time and money for art asset design and other things like puzzling out the game mechanics.
5. Use F/OSS software when possible. Anymore it's becoming clear that the intellectual property laws are closing up possibilities for innovation as they become far more reaching per session of Congress and per the wallets of lobbyists. As such using F/OSS'd software packages from compilers to 3d rendering engines will save one the hassle of dealing with lawyers and 'licenses.'
Yeahhhhhhh, I completely agree, All im saying is i dont care about the graphics, well to a certain extent, but ya games are gettin so boring and everytime i play a new game, ive felt like ive played it b4 because ive played WoW and it seems that has been the template for all these other mmo's, i mean WoW is good and all but i know someone can make a better game, screw the graphics im down with shell-shaded, but about youngster's grades, it should be up to the parents to know that these kids are balancing schoolwork and play, im 17 but i started mmo's when i was 12, and my dad had me on lock, he knew how to balance my time, and know im an honor roll student, everyone in my school is cool with me and all, i just got my priorities straight
"The ends justifies the means" - Nikolai Machiavelli
I think there's a disturbing stuff going on with MMOs nowadays. Here are some that I can think off at the moment. For me..these are sickening to some extend.. 1. Developers tend to focus more on the graphics rather than the game itself ; value of replayability 2. Based on #1, games are most of the times ridden with bugs and instability (Age of Conan, Rohan and Hellgate London comes to mind) 3. Based on #1, players HAVE to upgrade their system just for the sake of playing it What say you? Am I just thinking too much?
I think that this is a problem not just in the MMO genre, but in gaming in general. There is definitely something funky going on with all of the ATI and NVIDIA advertisements that splash on your screen with every single PC game launched.
I have said it before time and again that programmers today are far lazier than what they were several years ago. It used to be that the developers squeezed every iota of juice out of the systems available and made the games run WELL. With broadband internet available pretty much everywhere anymore developers and publishers have this release now patch later mentality. And when they really suck (brad mcquaid and others) it is not the fault of lazy developers, it's the fault of cheap gamers that won't go out and spend 3k every 6 months to make up for the lack of optimization and programmer skill.
I never played swg so whether you are full of it or not I can't say. What were the server population like? How many points of interest where there hunting wise? I started playing UO 98 lasted over 6 years so I played and loved the ultimate sandbox.
I grow tired of trying to have a conversation with someone that obviously knows everything.
Ikavadas, nothing wrong with having your own ideas, but belittling others just makes you a troll. Forums are a place for discussion. When disagreeing with a point of view, supply some facts to support yours and keep the snide remarks to yourself.
Personally, player run economies are far better than loot based, especially when done right. Eve does very well in this area, UO did at one time too. The fact that they are both skill based makes it much easier for the playerbase to decide what rocks their boat. I know in Eve there are a lot of very rich non trades types out there.
Nothing wrong with instancing used judiciously. Unfortunately, lazy developers, like Funcom have made it into a life event in their games which brings us to the point that overdoing anything is not good.
Comments
Well i went to the rohan site and didnt see anything to overt in the sex stuff. As far as tastefuly doing a sex type thing in a game i think bioware did this very well with mass effect. Sex sells like many others have said and this is a business and they need money. Just this monday I was able to get a computer that for the first time could keep up with the games I like playing. Graphics dont need to keep getting upgraded, it should be something like 80/20 content/graphics.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
I agree with you pretty much. But the trend will turn around as far as #1 and #3 go. They will start producing games with less steep requirements when they see that games like Vanguard and AoC will never have the success that WoW does- because of it's lesser requirements. Warhammer is coming out the end of this year and the requirements are very gentle and it will do extremely well I think!
And #4- that's our culture now sadly. I think it started happening when MTV came out honestly. Women were dressed scantily and portrayed as slutty and that was a new phenomona on TV.
Just look at different games though because some are more respectful to women-.I know in Vanguard they had a slider so you could make your lady toon look smaller chested. And in LoTRO- the Devs made the women quite elegant looking and there's no revealing armor in the game at all and NEVER will be.
Wow..with the new games you have listed and you are just now discovering a LONG TERM problem you shouldn't complain. This problem started a long time ago even with wow and before. EQ release was horrible by todays standards and its now considered a classic. Remember wow with the 10min lag-out and constant rollbacks the first couple months? No, I guess not.
MMOs cost the same as any console game (less even) and you get 30days before you pay a subscription. I have had a ton of console games I didn't play more than 5hrs. But all the MMOs I've bought..even the really really bad ones I played more than 5 hours.
edit; ianubisi I should have read your post first I wouldn't have posted this.
Instancing is a GOOD thing and it is not going to go away. There is no fun is a campfest waiting in line of 50 to kill the boss. EQ taught us that.
People like you kill the current and future MMORPG, of course crowd in outdoor is bad, but this is a problem to solve, not to be avoided, and when you avoid it by instancing, it is not an MMORPG anymore, go back to play your diablo2?
MMO played (paid):
AION
DragonRaja
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Lineage
Lineage 2
Tibia
Ultima Online
Warhammer Online
World of Warcraft
MMO tried:
Atlantica Online
Darkfall
Dead Frontier
Dungeon Runners
EverQuest
Lord of the Rings Online
Monster Hunter Frontier Online
Ragnarok Online
Requiem
Runes of Magic
Runescape
The 4th Coming
and some other Chinese/Korean or beta MMOs
Instancing is the single worst mechanic to ever be introduced into MMOs. It's a crutch that pathetically uninspired developers use to solve "crowding" issues in an MMO. I guess they don't give a shit what that first "M" stands for.
Why make a compelling game when you can just stuff every player into their own self-contained vacuum?
Instancing is a GOOD thing and it is not going to go away. There is no fun is a campfest waiting in line of 50 to kill the boss. EQ taught us that.
People like you kill the current and future MMORPG, of course crowd in outdoor is bad, but this is a problem to solve, not to be avoided, and when you avoid it by instancing, it is not an MMORPG anymore, go back to play your diablo2?
Ok stud you sound like you have all the answers. Please enlighten us how would you fix over crowding? I'm no fan of how wow did instances per group but an instance allowing X number of people would be far better then going back to UOs no instances and fighting people over each and ever spawn.
I will try to solve it if I am a game developer, but sadly I am not.
Instancing is just against the basic concept of MMORPG, if you hate seeing people then there was a type of game which is lobby game (e.g. diablo), you open a room with a few or up to around twenty players from the lobby then play with them inside the game room. Which is the so-called MMORPG tend to now.
I am not saying that kind of game sucks but just don't mix them with MMORPG.
MMO played (paid):
AION
DragonRaja
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Lineage
Lineage 2
Tibia
Ultima Online
Warhammer Online
World of Warcraft
MMO tried:
Atlantica Online
Darkfall
Dead Frontier
Dungeon Runners
EverQuest
Lord of the Rings Online
Monster Hunter Frontier Online
Ragnarok Online
Requiem
Runes of Magic
Runescape
The 4th Coming
and some other Chinese/Korean or beta MMOs
People only cry about non-instancing for one reason: loot whoring.
So the answer is to solve loot whoring. It's actually really, really simple. Here are a few ideas:
1. Don't make mob bosses statically located;
2. Don't make mob bosses drop unique loot that can only be obtained via that one single mob;
3. Use a player based economy that functions on component, item enhancer, and resource drops rather than shitty whole loot systems that cuts out crafting.
And that's just what I thought of in thirty seconds. Imagine if I spent ten minutes on this.
I will try to solve it if I am a game developer, but sadly I am not.
Instancing is just against the basic concept of MMORPG, if you hate seeing people then there was a type of game which is lobby game (e.g. diablo), you open a room with a few or up to around twenty players from the lobby then play with them inside the game room. Which is the so-called MMORPG tend to now.
I am not saying that kind of game sucks but just don't mix them with MMORPG.
You mean you can't even imagine any idea that could work instead of instances?
Here I throw out a couple and I'm not a mmo designer.
A. Dynamic spawning, ie the more mobs that are killed the more that spawn, but would get very crowded if you have several people killing in the same area.
B. Literally a ton of dungeons so the masses could spread out more, but if dungeon A is more profitable or offers X items while B doesn't then everyone will still crowd A.
C. Instant dungeon not like wow party ones but allow lets say 50 people in a dungeon before a new one is created. AoC is pretty similar they have multiple instances of the same dungeon but not something that is for you or your group only.
I'd love a player based economy because I like to craft. But just like crafting gets the shit end of the stick now you can't do the same to hunters. You need to find a happy medium.
No people, won't stop hunting in dungeons. So just have enough dungeons to keep your server population evenly distributed between them. Or give people fun shit to do that isn't centered a dungeon (dungeons are kind of retarded anyways). It's simple.
And how do crafters get the shit end of the stick? In every truly player run economy crafters are always at the top rung in terms of wealth. And not just by a little; but by a shit ton.
Please, you're exactly the reason why MMOs today suck ass.
1. True. Hiding the lack of a soul, graphics tend to have become the main preoccupation of developers.
2. Probably, yes. Although bugs and instability have several different reasons, not least the high complexity of these games themselves.
3. Yup. On the other hand, particularly since development time have become so long, developers want their games to live for an extended period of time, thus high end graphics and design for high end machines also have inherent causes.
4.) Depiction of females should vary with the subject matter of games. In other words, what is right for Conan is plain wrong in Middle Earth.
5) Not much we can do about youngsters pointlessly spending cash, I'm afraid. That story is as old as the industrial revolution.
6) What angers me is rather the idea being inserted that every youngster somehow deserves reaching the top of the game, being the "hero" and that he should be guaranteed reaching such a goal if he only "works hard enough" (i.e pretty much like school). It totally obfuscates the virtual adventure environment as a game of chance and fate.
No people, won't stop hunting in dungeons. So just have enough dungeons to keep your server population evenly distributed between them. Or give people fun shit to do that isn't centered a dungeon (dungeons are kind of retarded anyways). It's simple.
And how do crafters get the shit end of the stick? In every truly player run economy crafters are always at the top rung in terms of wealth. And not just by a little; but by a shit ton.
Please, you're exactly the reason why MMOs today suck ass.
How is having 10 dungeons different from having 1 dungeon instanted 10 times? The population would still be spread out between the same land mass. Plus developer would have to design 10 different dungeons slowing down production. If you give people stuff to do outside of dungeons then guess what those places will get over crowded just like dungeons. Yes dungeons are stupid.
Your simple fixes fix nothing.
You need to supply enough playing space for everyone. If people can't find stuff to kill because everything is camped to hell and back people leave.
Crafter get the shit end of the stick now not in a player based system, but like I say you can't go from one extreme to the next.
If you want to fix mmos you need to take what works and fix what doesn't. Instances can work if done right. Going backwards as you seam to think is a great idea will only bring back the old problems. You need to think and be innovative if you want things to get better.
I mean I am doing a difficult assignment so I just want to read forum to relax instead of thinking.
Server is actually a big copy of instance, so it is ok to spread the people.
But instances within a server is bad, because it's one big world.
I don't feel any of the old style non-instanced MMORPGs have serious crowd problem if the place are large and enough hunting places/dungeons/servers to spread the people.
And boss spawn shouldn't be "camped", yes its good to have dynamic and random spawn.
In fact I hate grinding in an area, I prefer the hunting style is you walk around and search for your prey.
Btw what is AoC's instancing like? I am interested yet my computer cannot afford it.
MMO played (paid):
AION
DragonRaja
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Lineage
Lineage 2
Tibia
Ultima Online
Warhammer Online
World of Warcraft
MMO tried:
Atlantica Online
Darkfall
Dead Frontier
Dungeon Runners
EverQuest
Lord of the Rings Online
Monster Hunter Frontier Online
Ragnarok Online
Requiem
Runes of Magic
Runescape
The 4th Coming
and some other Chinese/Korean or beta MMOs
I will try to solve it if I am a game developer, but sadly I am not.
Instancing is just against the basic concept of MMORPG, if you hate seeing people then there was a type of game which is lobby game (e.g. diablo), you open a room with a few or up to around twenty players from the lobby then play with them inside the game room. Which is the so-called MMORPG tend to now.
I am not saying that kind of game sucks but just don't mix them with MMORPG.
You mean you can't even imagine any idea that could work instead of instances?
Here I throw out a couple and I'm not a mmo designer.
A. Dynamic spawning, ie the more mobs that are killed the more that spawn, but would get very crowded if you have several people killing in the same area.
B. Literally a ton of dungeons so the masses could spread out more, but if dungeon A is more profitable or offers X items while B doesn't then everyone will still crowd A.
C. Instant dungeon not like wow party ones but allow lets say 50 people in a dungeon before a new one is created. AoC is pretty similar they have multiple instances of the same dungeon but not something that is for you or your group only.
A) This is done already in games like WOW. However, you can't control for the difficulty of the fight as well as instancing.
C) This may be a solution but why 50? It is difficult to control the difficulty of a dungeon with variable number. If you want a high number of players .. go for a raid. Those takes 25 people. Having said that, the trend is to allowing smaller and smaller group that can finish a dungeon.
"Finishing" is a bad idea in MMORPG.
MMO played (paid):
AION
DragonRaja
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Lineage
Lineage 2
Tibia
Ultima Online
Warhammer Online
World of Warcraft
MMO tried:
Atlantica Online
Darkfall
Dead Frontier
Dungeon Runners
EverQuest
Lord of the Rings Online
Monster Hunter Frontier Online
Ragnarok Online
Requiem
Runes of Magic
Runescape
The 4th Coming
and some other Chinese/Korean or beta MMOs
I mean I am doing a difficult assignment so I just want to read forum to relax instead of thinking.
Server is actually a big copy of instance, so it is ok to spread the people.
But instances within a server is bad, because it's one big world.
I don't feel any of the old style non-instanced MMORPGs have serious crowd problem if the place are large and enough hunting places/dungeons/servers to spread the people.
And boss spawn shouldn't be "camped", yes its good to have dynamic and random spawn.
In fact I hate grinding in an area, I prefer the hunting style is you walk around and search for your prey.
Btw what is AoC's instancing like? I am interested yet my computer cannot afford it.
Bleh there is alway time to screw off.
So to have enough space to spread people out you would either need to design a shit ton of areas and dungeons keeping all of them equally fun and rewarding (no diversity) which would take a lot of time and money or limit server population greatly which greatly increase upkeep cost of servers.
Old game weren't crowded?!? You sure you played UO? There was always a ton of people in shame hunting earthies or the first, air and evil mages on the second and gazers on the 3rd. This was of course post trammel. Pre-trammel most dungeons were farely empty because people feared pkers which is not a good option.
Dungeon bosses should be removed imho.
AoC's instances aren't bad. There are several instance of the same area that multiple people can go in. You are always around random people just not packed in so thick you can't move.
Sadly I am in Australia and Oceania doesn't have a lot of people lol.
One problem is that place are getting larger and more coz of patch and expansion, yet players are usually getting less and less.
Well the most things I'm against kind of an instancing system is that you can choose who to be with you by grouping, in a small amount of people, and the instances are created and deleted as a different copy all the time where nothing inside last (i.e that's what make instancing lack of "outside world" feeling, everything you do are then cleared when that copy is deleted).
I also hate the style that you play in this zone at a certain lv then you go to that zone at another certain lv, never going back then, every piece of land should has its meaningful use in different situations or purposes no matter what strength you have.
MMO played (paid):
AION
DragonRaja
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Lineage
Lineage 2
Tibia
Ultima Online
Warhammer Online
World of Warcraft
MMO tried:
Atlantica Online
Darkfall
Dead Frontier
Dungeon Runners
EverQuest
Lord of the Rings Online
Monster Hunter Frontier Online
Ragnarok Online
Requiem
Runes of Magic
Runescape
The 4th Coming
and some other Chinese/Korean or beta MMOs
ROFL, so you predicate on your entire argument on these tenants:
1. There is no difference between separate dungeons that are part of the unified game world and a single dungeon with ten shards;
2. There needs to be room for everyone;
3. Ten dungeons is apparently way too much content for a developer team to handle; and
4. Anything that isn't a dungeon that has stuff to do will become overcrowded (just because, right?).
All I can say to you, sir, is "wow, you truly are the reason why modern MMOs stink." Seriously, your expectations of good game design and MMO evolution could not be any lower. You are the lowest common denominator. Congratulations.
Will your next crusade be on behalf of shitty magazines that stuff their pages with more advertisements than articles and then support them by saying, "writing articles would take time away from getting the periodical out (quality irregardless, right?)."
That is the absurdity of your argument. That a good game is, to you at the very least, simply not feasible and completely incomprehensible. It's sad that this industry pumps out thousands of people like you every year.
Have you ever experienced a non-linear MMO that didn't guide your every step through the game? Doesn't seem like it.
No wonder the MMO hasn't evolved in ten years....
And don't think I'm blowing this out of my ass because in preCU SWG we had a bajillion places to go, including dozens of "dungeons," and spawn camping was never an issue and bear in mind that at the time SWG was the second most successful western MMO in terms of active players behind only EQ1 (roughly 400k active subs in SWG at that time).
So apparently Raph Koster is capable of creating what you can't even comprehend or consider reality.
1. Dynamic spawning could include a procedural AI that maintains swarms of AI and their 'behaviors', but this isn't known within MMOs or even MUDs at this time. So, you'll get the bunk like that it's 'impossible' to do even though it's done in AL program research.
2. It's not that dungeons are needed, rather dungeons need to make themselves through the NPCs. It's about time that developers stop thinking of themselves as makers of games, but as makers of worlds and make tools to maintain a world instead. Whether it's an AI 'trimming' system or an AL ruleset management system (altering constants while the AL system is operating), it's going to be needed for the coming decades as AL and AI become the de facto means to even do complex research in medicine and other sciences. Computer science as a science is not immune to this, and that includes games.
3. Make it possible for players to alter the persistent environment. Yes, let players kill the dragon dead as no more respawn of said dragon and do as I suggested for points 1 and 2 as they would be necessary to generate more 'content.' This would put the pressure off of instancing entirely as such developments would require a total redesign of how to generate game spaces without zones for which one can generate an instance from.
4. Take down the walls around your garden. That means use a single framework for character data, and make it portable between your game and other games that use the same framework as to ensure players can enter and leave your game world with ease. Maybe customer A prefers fantasy MMO 1 over fantasy MMO 2, so let them port their character over with a nominal fee, and courtesy backup (for whenever it seems possible they might return later), to the other game world. It may seem impossible by the assumptions held today, but often we port data between different databases today between hospitals, utility companies, businesses, governmental agencies, and other such institutions which are information driven as much if not more so than an MMO. It also lowers the initial costs for an MMO developer because if you don't have to reinvent the framework for which characters are made, it follows you have a standard from which to use, thus saving precious time and money for art asset design and other things like puzzling out the game mechanics.
5. Use F/OSS software when possible. Anymore it's becoming clear that the intellectual property laws are closing up possibilities for innovation as they become far more reaching per session of Congress and per the wallets of lobbyists. As such using F/OSS'd software packages from compilers to 3d rendering engines will save one the hassle of dealing with lawyers and 'licenses.'
-- Brede
Yeahhhhhhh, I completely agree, All im saying is i dont care about the graphics, well to a certain extent, but ya games are gettin so boring and everytime i play a new game, ive felt like ive played it b4 because ive played WoW and it seems that has been the template for all these other mmo's, i mean WoW is good and all but i know someone can make a better game, screw the graphics im down with shell-shaded, but about youngster's grades, it should be up to the parents to know that these kids are balancing schoolwork and play, im 17 but i started mmo's when i was 12, and my dad had me on lock, he knew how to balance my time, and know im an honor roll student, everyone in my school is cool with me and all, i just got my priorities straight
"The ends justifies the means" - Nikolai Machiavelli
I think that this is a problem not just in the MMO genre, but in gaming in general. There is definitely something funky going on with all of the ATI and NVIDIA advertisements that splash on your screen with every single PC game launched.
I have said it before time and again that programmers today are far lazier than what they were several years ago. It used to be that the developers squeezed every iota of juice out of the systems available and made the games run WELL. With broadband internet available pretty much everywhere anymore developers and publishers have this release now patch later mentality. And when they really suck (brad mcquaid and others) it is not the fault of lazy developers, it's the fault of cheap gamers that won't go out and spend 3k every 6 months to make up for the lack of optimization and programmer skill.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Looks like your numbers are a bit off.
I never played swg so whether you are full of it or not I can't say. What were the server population like? How many points of interest where there hunting wise? I started playing UO 98 lasted over 6 years so I played and loved the ultimate sandbox.
I grow tired of trying to have a conversation with someone that obviously knows everything.
Ikavadas, nothing wrong with having your own ideas, but belittling others just makes you a troll. Forums are a place for discussion. When disagreeing with a point of view, supply some facts to support yours and keep the snide remarks to yourself.
Personally, player run economies are far better than loot based, especially when done right. Eve does very well in this area, UO did at one time too. The fact that they are both skill based makes it much easier for the playerbase to decide what rocks their boat. I know in Eve there are a lot of very rich non trades types out there.
Nothing wrong with instancing used judiciously. Unfortunately, lazy developers, like Funcom have made it into a life event in their games which brings us to the point that overdoing anything is not good.