I had to re-read this amazingly ignorant post, because first 10 times I couldn't believe my own eyes. This is a perfect example of a wow subscriber that is so arrogant towards other mmorpg styles that he even tries to convince us about wow freedom. WoW is the most linear mmorpg out there. And sandbox games are the exact opposite. I can't think of any other MMORPG out there that would be less sandbox than WoW.
Please reread an 11th time then.
We are talking of Wow end game anno June 2008. You know the one with the epic end game gear from ALL choices of play (be it BG, Arena, Crafting, Solo, Heoric dungeons, Small raids or Big raids).
Not the old 2006 pure PVE Vanilla Wow you all HATE !
That game died in Nov 2007.
)
You have absolutely no idea what does Sandbox mean. Because sandbox games have no end-game. Do you get it this time, or you want me to spell it?
Do you mean that if you have any sort of option, you have a sandbox? Would that make City of Heres/Villains a sandbox? I mean I can raid, pvp, go to arena, play solo, farm, craft, etc, in CoX. When I think about sandbox I think about a little bit more than just have a list of pretty much the same thing to do (kill stuff) in different situations (different places, enemies and group sizes). To me WoW may be a great game with high replayability, but it still not meet my requirements for being a sandbox. I guess we have different views about what sandbox mean.
Originally posted by Zorndorf Because the definition of apples isn't universal accepted. We still are talking about fruit though. So I showed you why I think Wow is the best fruit. Your defintion of apples is but one of many... Just like the OP thought this one aspect of his old game stood for "sandbox", ... .... ))
We're talking about one kind of fruit, not about fruits as a whole. Get a grasp.
Arguement wasn't about what kind of mmorpg is better, discussion was about only one kind of mmorpg, the sandbox style mmorpg. And you bring a linear mmorpg into discussion and claim it's a better sandbox.
There are many clear differences between both styles, and they have nothing to do with being old or new. And what you like most is a matter of opinion.
Seriously, get a clue about what a sandbox mmorpg is before spewing retarded statements like 'definition of apples isn't universal accepted'. Arrogance is one thing, but bending reality in a retarded way to make your point stand out is just claiming to be called an idiot. And i'm being generous there.
Oh well another of those "sandbox is best" rant thread. Don't you feel old now repeating that? To the OP, your argument falls apart easily.
If you want only sandbox, and you mean to play a sandbox without trying to dictate how others play, any game is a sandbox. Just ignore all the quests, all the world events, and play whatever you want: wander, explore, dance, dive down a cliff, get drown. Who stops you from doing what you want, as long as you do not interfere with other players. Of course, that means play PVE sandbox, not trying to grief or ambush the unwary PVEer.
Then you mention free loot. Now that is exactly what you mean, not sandbox. You want to be able to attack anyone you like, you like the idea of full loot. That means dictating how others play, as they have to open themselves to your uninvited aggression. What has that to do with sandbox? If all you want is the ability to fight with humans (more varied fighting style), why do you need full loot? So that you can scam, ambush, grief and humiliate those with slower eye-hand coordination, or slower internet access? Oh great, so much for your glory.
You also talk about levels. Is that odd? A true PVPer would not like levels, he may work on selection of skills, but not level, not gear. How inconsistent do you sound.
I may be jumping to conclusion, but I feel you are hypocratic, lying. You are trying to preach free loot PVP, and your title seems to be talking about sandbox. Either you confuse the 2 concepts yourself, or you are trying to confuse the readers.
Please reread an 11th time then. We are talking of Wow end game anno June 2008. You know the one with the epic end game gear from ALL choices of play (be it BG, Arena, Crafting, Solo, Heoric dungeons, Small raids or Big raids). Not the old 2006 pure PVE Vanilla Wow you all HATE ! That game died in Nov 2007. )
You have absolutely no idea what does Sandbox mean. Because sandbox games have no end-game. Do you get it this time, or you want me to spell it?
See above / )
Your defintion of an apple is but one.
I say choices of play and freedom of play to develop my character. Others say choices of play and freedom of play to develop the world.
You say: no end game at all.
A fourth person would say where players change themselves the world.
While the OP said: ganking people to take all their loot, now that was sandbox.
I just showed you ALL how HOLLOW and unde...blahblah...
No it is you who don't get it. There is no end-game in sandbox games. You were not talking about freedom and linearity, you were talking about sandbox. Don't force me to quote you again.
Sandbox game have NO CLASSES AND LEVELS. So there's basically no endgame. In sandbox you can basically group up as a newbie with players that play it for 2 years and still do your part. In sandbox you can spend 99% of time doing crafting and nothing else. In sandbox you have player driven economy and every item player crafted.
I don't care how many options does WoW have to get those silly epics. IT IS STILL ONLY ABOUT GETTING THE SILLY EPICS. You get it? WoW is nothing more, but a linear item-farm.
Ad 2: WoW has terribly limited classes. Can your paladin take a crossbow and start shooting? Can your priest start sneaking around? Can your warrior cast a fireball from time to time? NO AND HE CAN NOT EVEN LEARN IT. There is ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE FOR YOU AS A WARRIOR TO LEARN CASTING FIREBALL. You've got to reroll for that.
Ad3: Can your crafter make bardings for horses? Horseshoes..? Saddlebags? Houses?.. Guild halls? ... What about sieges? Can your crafter build siege weaponry? Or ships? Maybe zeppelins? I saw there are zeppelins in WoW. Can a crafter build these? No because 99% of things you see are fixed, unchangable, uncraftable etc..
There are many kinds of apples, but they share enough similarities between them and enough differences from other fruits to not be called otherwise. Also, there are many kinds of oranges, but guess what...they also share many similarities and enough differences to not be called...for example...apples.
Same as...hey....let's say cats(sandbox) and dogs(linear)? Both are animals(mmorpg) but they have basic features that make them stand on one side or the other, and that's why we classify them as being in a group or another.
That's how we, human race, classify everything around us. Heck, there are millions of possible analogies to illustrate the point. But i guess you would ignore all of them. You did before, why shouldn't you do it now?
No it is you who don't get it. There is no end-game in sandbox games. You were not talking about freedom and linearity, you were talking about sandbox. Don't force me to quote you again. Sandbox game have NO CLASSES AND LEVELS. So there's basically no endgame. In sandbox you can basically group up as a newbie with players that play it for 2 years and still do your part. In sandbox you can spend 99% of time doing crafting and nothing else. In sandbox you have player driven economy and every item player crafted. I don't care how many options does WoW have to get those silly epics. IT IS STILL ONLY ABOUT GETTING THE SILLY EPICS. You get it? WoW is nothing more, but a linear item-farm. Ad 2: WoW has terribly limited classes. Can your paladin take a crossbow and start shooting? Can your priest start sneaking around? Can your warrior cast a fireball from time to time? NO AND HE CAN NOT EVEN LEARN IT. There is ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE FOR YOU AS A WARRIOR TO LEARN CASTING FIREBALL. You've got to reroll for that. Ad3: Can your crafter make bardings for horses? Horseshoes..? Saddlebags? Houses?.. Guild halls? ... What about sieges? Can your crafter build siege weaponry? Or ships? Maybe zeppelins? I saw there are zeppelins in WoW. Can a crafter build these? No because 99% of things you see are fixed, unchangable, uncraftable etc..
Well I can make my own helicopters. in Wow ...
Well in WotlK you can make even duo seats to take passengers along.
Well we can built Keeps there in WotlK
As a paladin I can be a pure healer, or a pure tanking fighter or a pure warrior dps kind of guy. And indeed I can choose any 2 professions I like (jewelcrafter, engineer, different kinds of blacksmith, etc etc ...) and change any time I want.
And guess what ??? All with stats analysed to death by professional programmers with millions of analysed data.
THOUSANDS of possible end game combo's. But still lineair heuh ?
Doh, you are amazing. You really believe in what you're writing here, or you're just having a good laugh? Because I seriously doubt from your reasoning that you're serious.
You still mentioned here your silly end-game combos. I repeat myself. There is no end-game in Sandbox and just the whole fact that you believe how free you are in WoW end-game is good enough argument to say WoW is not a sandbox.
I had to re-read this amazingly ignorant post, because first 10 times I couldn't believe my own eyes. This is a perfect example of a wow subscriber that is so arrogant towards other mmorpg styles that he even tries to convince us about wow freedom. WoW is the most linear mmorpg out there. And sandbox games are the exact opposite. I can't think of any other MMORPG out there that would be less sandbox than WoW.
Please reread an 11th time then.
We are talking of Wow end game anno June 2008. You know the one with the epic end game gear from ALL choices of play (be it BG, Arena, Crafting, Solo, Heoric dungeons, Small raids or Big raids).
Not the old 2006 pure PVE Vanilla Wow you all HATE !
That game died in Nov 2007.
)
Zandorf, let me start by saying that I play WoW and have done since release. I agree that recently Blizzard have succeeded in making viable progression through multiple methods of play. Even just doing heroic five mans will get you some lovely gear these days. Great.
But it is not a sandbox, and I take issue with your claim that the definition of sandbox is changed. You can't play with semantics like that (accurately anyway.) It is a fixed definition, with criteria that WoW does not fulfill.
One of your arguments is do to with the value of gear produced through crafting. This is an area that has improved for sure, especially with the addition of things like engineering goggles. However that avoids the point of why it is not 'sandbox' crafting. The point is that it is never your character's focus, it is a secondary aspect to the main class.
Although there may be some variety in how this is implemented, the general concept of sandbox crafting is that can be the ultimate focus of your charatcer, the aspect of the game that takes up as much of the player's gametime as PvP or PvE does to a WoW player. Some ways in which this can be evident:
- Firstly and most crucially the crafter must be able to craft without having to fight. In WoW you cannot train Artisan, Master etc. in a crafting profession without a attaining a certain character level, and that level itself has to be attained through grinding or questing. This is not sandbox crafting. The sandbox crafter may need rare components from creature kills, but will pay for them with money earned commericially or in extreme cases will be accompanied to the mob with combat players, either from their guild or payed mercenaries, or perhaps as part of the agreement for the creation of the gear.
- There has to be diversity in the statistical value of a single crafting pattern. A Windscale Hood in WoW has a set value on it's stat bonuses, with no variables to this. Because a sandbox game has crating as a viable primary playstyle, it must be possible to create better or worse versions of the same item for there to be a sense of achievement, progression and competition. A dedicated crafter needs to be able to become a known brandname - people will recognise that the broadsword created by them will be superior to the broadsword created by an amateur. This leads to a further point:
- The crafting process itself must contain a degree of complexity beyond "Gather materials, press create button." This can be evident in several different ways: A degree of gambling (failure possibilities, decision on whether to try for a better item at a greater risk of failure,) optional components, pre-production steps, experimentation methods, even cosmetic options.
Ok, so crafting is an easy example, but it highlights some other things. In a sandox MMO, character advancement cannot be just about killing stuff, which a linear MMO boils down to sooner or later, through PvE encounters or PvP.
Another big and utterly vital factor is world impact and evolution. Stuff must change based on what players do. I know you will try and quote Sunwell Isle here, so Iøll highlight why this is NOT sandbox world evolution:
- The changes that happened as Sunwell Isle progressed was fixed. First you took back the armory, then the harbour, then.. well you get the idea. For it to be sandbox, the possible changes MUST be variable.
- When a server completes Sunwell Isle, the changes are done and that is it until the next content release with similar stuff. A sanbox MMO must have constant and numerous opportunity for world change.
Some typical true sandbox implementations of world change are:
- The ability to build player structures (houses, cities, PvP bases) on the majority of the game world. This is important, PvP is never as intense as when something you build yourself is at risk of destruction or invasion. Player cities allow crafters to set up a true business, with furnished shops.
- The ability to change politiical and social situations. Often tied in with PvP, this means major cities , for example can change drastically as a new faction takes leadership.
Perhaps the main Sanbox requirement is this....
- Players should NEVER be tied to any starting choice apart from 'genetic' things like race. Class, faction, appearance... these should all be changeable to degree. In WoW, you cannot betray your faction and defect to the other side, you cannot decide that just because you born a dwarf, your character will try and befreind the city of Ogrimmar because you understand that all that evil shit was because of demonic corruption - this instrumentally stops it being a sandbox game. Yes, talent trees offer diversity within a class, but in a sandbox MMO you should be able to decide to drop half your Hunter skills so you can pick up a few Shaman and Rogue ones instead, and mix them together. The inability to EVER learn the opposing faction's languages.. sorry, in a sandbox game you could.
This is not a dig at WoW, I love WoW, but it is simply not a sandbox mmo.
As a paladin I can be a pure healer, or a pure tanking fighter or a pure warrior dps kind of guy.
Can you cast fireballs, thunderbolts, ice shards or poison foes with that very same character? NO.
Look mate, WoW is not sandbox. There's nothing right or wrong with that. It's just...not a sandbox mmorpg. I'm just saying that you forced a non-sandbox game into a sandbox-game discussion. It just doesn't belong here, that's it.
In the recently 'limboed' Saga of Ryzom, with only one character, you could wield melee weapons, heavy armor, and 1 minute later change your gear and start casting offensive spells, or even healing ones. Or even cast without changing your heavy gear ( with casting penalties applied ). In time, you could be proeficient in all kinds of combat. Know what? your skills were made of their different parts: mana consumption, cooldown, cast time, damage, etc. You could, in the middle of the field, CREATE a new skill combining the different parts, thus getting different results. Maybe an insta cast, big heal with a long mana consumption, or a short cast, short heal with very small mana consumption...and you could have a lot of CUSTOM made skills ready at any given moment. Same with melee or ranged combat skills. That's freedom. That's one of many reasons Ryzom was classified as sandbox. I'm not even gonna start explaining the awesome crafting system....
Thanks for ignoring all our detailed points and sum them up as "you're all wrong, WoW rocks, and so do i".
Congratulations on being one of countless millions of drones not even aknowledging there can be different styles. That yours is the one and only. That any one even thinking there is different stuff out there is plain wrong.
Thank you for submitting all your own defintions of sandboxes. I ve seen about 8 different definitions here. To the last poster. Tx for the effort. But my main goal here was to show that WOW/TBC Anno 2008 changed a LOT since Nov 2007. And I guess with the constructable fortresses in WotlK with the added siege engine systems...these are just a next step in further evolution to even more choices of play (and crafting ) . I agree with most of what you all said BTW. ----- As for stealth: well my paladin crafted a tool I can do stealth with ) and indeed I can craft a rocket launcher doing BIG distance damage. (just teasing but I can ...) But have a nice day in that universal unexsistent universe called sandbox.
Serious, why are all these drones cannot see other play styles.
Is it hard to understand that WOW is not a SANDBOX MMORPG.
Do u even know what sandbox means? So WOTLK has keeps, will it affect the world ? No ! constructable fotresses does not make it sandbox. WOW has no economy, please play EVE if you want a player economy , everything is player crafted and in WOW, everything is done by npc's and not by players .
Crafting? Oh god, ever played SWG pre cu.
A sandbox mmorpg , you can affect the world. WOW is linear , you must be a combatent , you cannot just 100% craft and do nothing else, there are levels, classes, you craft in steps, everything is automatic , there is no , hey i control azeroth with the alliance, or hey the economy has changed and prices dropped very quickly. There is no world pvp, what are people fighting for? Gear? oh please!
WOW is not a sandbox game , WOW june 2008 has limited choices, in the end , WOW is all about raiding. Can i progress by only doing crafting? No ! Can i progress by doing from level 1 pvp? No!
The list goes on.
You haven't played a sandbox mmo and probably not even a mmo before WOW.
I am simply amazed by your ignorant posts and this is just generous from me.
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
Thank you for submitting all your own defintions of sandboxes. I ve seen about 8 different definitions here. To the last poster. Tx for the effort. But my main goal here was to show that WOW/TBC Anno 2008 changed a LOT since Nov 2007. And I guess with the constructable fortresses in WotlK with the added siege engine systems...these are just a next step in further evolution to even more choices of play (and crafting ) . I agree with most of what you all said BTW. ----- As for stealth: well my paladin crafted a tool I can do stealth with ) and indeed I can craft a rocket launcher doing BIG distance damage. (just teasing but I can ...) But have a nice day in that universal unexsistent universe called sandbox.
Bravo Zorndorf! You have just won the thread hi-jack award for June 2008. Well done my friend... WELL DONE!!!
Can you believe these folks are actually trying to defend their pitiful definitions of sandbox?? You really have them going!!
Hey - I hear the GOP committee is looking for new staff writers for their 'talking points'...
Thank you for submitting all your own defintions of sandboxes. I ve seen about 8 different definitions here. To the last poster. Tx for the effort. But my main goal here was to show that WOW/TBC Anno 2008 changed a LOT since Nov 2007. And I guess with the constructable fortresses in WotlK with the added siege engine systems...these are just a next step in further evolution to even more choices of play (and crafting ) . I agree with most of what you all said BTW. ----- As for stealth: well my paladin crafted a tool I can do stealth with ) and indeed I can craft a rocket launcher doing BIG distance damage. (just teasing but I can ...) But have a nice day in that universal unexsistent universe called sandbox.
Bravo Zorndorf! You have just won the thread hi-jack award for June 2008. Well done my friend... WELL DONE!!!
Can you believe these folks are actually trying to defend their pitiful definitions of sandbox?? You really have them going!!
Hey - I hear the GOP committee is looking for new staff writers for their 'talking points'...
you would be a shoe in!
I am not impressed , i must say. All he does is repeats himself and doesn't put the facts in the lines.
He is subjective , if he is claiming WOW as a sandbox. Fine , but that is his opinion. The fact lies that WOW is a pure linear game and not a sandbox game.
But unfortunately, half minded people with LOW IQ's who probably have not even studied since they have no creativity only think they are the right persons. I would call them georgy boys. Incompetent morons
My analogy about the human is correct. The majority are stupid.
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
Thanks for ignoring all our detailed points and sum them up as "you're all wrong, WoW rocks, and so do i". Congratulations on being one of countless millions of drones not even aknowledging there can be different styles. That yours is the one and only. That any one even thinking there is different stuff out there is plain wrong.
But you ALL proved to yourselves that you all have very different definitions of a sandbox.
Just look at the OP.
And some more convincing than others I might say.
And I never said all of you were wrong in your dreams.
I only showed you all have different dreams of "sandboxes". And my dreams are just as valid as yours.
The only thing I know is that I am playing in my dream.
Off with my helicopter ...
The definition of sandbox also is stated in WIKI. Linear and sandbox are written in stones. There is only one definition and most people already explained it to you , but of course . Narrow minded people to the extremes simply refuse to understand that.
A sandbox is a virtual world, where you can affect, have choice and are free.
Please refear or look at wiki for the real facts. These people have explained it already , it is you , who cannot understand or just simply lack the understanding and IQ in my opinion.
Please look above your shoulders and please look behind the horizon instead of your numbling low IQ talk.
You have a low IQ if you do not see the difference between a fact and a subjective opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
And I never said all of you were wrong in your dreams. I only showed you all have different dreams of "sandboxes". And my dreams are just as valid as yours. The only thing I know is that I am playing in my dream. Off with my helicopter ...
It's not a dream, you moron. These games existed, many people played them. And those 'definitions' you say are not definitions, are features that ( oh surprise ) most of them had. I understand an idiot like you has a very hard time understanding that a mmorpg can have other activities as important as combat in a game, but of course we're not gonna explain in detail all the features in sandboxes because, by DEFINITION, other activities are on par with combat in relevance. I mentioned some combat related features in Ryzom because, mind you, it's a game that was out for some years and people played it on their computers, not on their dreams. Others might talk about the complex crafting, or the trading, or whatever.
That's one of the reasons they're sandboxes. The relevance of many activities is on par with combat. Try to swallow that if your narrowed, arrogant mind can.
The definition of sandbox also is stated in WIKI. Linear and sandbox are written in stones. There is only one definition and most people already explained it to you , but of course . Narrow minded people to the extremes simply refuse to understand that. A sandbox is a virtual world, where you can affect, have choice and are free. ...
Sounds WOW/TBC June 2008.
The opening of the Sunwell these last months was an effort from the whole population.
Made possible by doing daily quests and crafting from the whole community per server.
Oh !that doesn't count because it's Wow.
Constructable keeps and crafted siege engines are already now in WotLK alfa.
Oh that doesn't count because it is Wow.
----------
The best answer I got till now is the guy who said Wow had no economy.
And all things were obtained through NPC's.
How much hate, so little substance.
So that does make it a sandbox? /laughs
It resets , kill kael thalas , oh cool, it dies, but next week you can fight it again. These enemies do not do anything, they just wait, in the sandbox world and lines, this is the opposite. Dungeons reset , blizzard can revamp there crafting system but that doesn't make it open ended. I have to follow those steps, it holds my hand principle and that's why WOW is linear. WOW is linear doesn't make it a crappy game.
wow is linear , it is a fact and it is set in stone. No matter what extra buttons you put in it , it stays at it core , the same!
Sandbox and linear can live together. They are both different and both have there qualities and negatives. You have to accept that, if you can't, you kinda make yourself look like an idiot bud.
Move aside, you repeat yourself.
wow is a good game, yet you think i hate it.
Just shows how stupid are you.
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
The definition of sandbox also is stated in WIKI. Linear and sandbox are written in stones. There is only one definition and most people already explained it to you , but of course . Narrow minded people to the extremes simply refuse to understand that. A sandbox is a virtual world, where you can affect, have choice and are free. ...
Sounds WOW/TBC June 2008.
The opening of the Sunwell these last months was an effort from the whole population.
Made possible by doing daily quests and crafting from the whole community per server.
Oh !that doesn't count because it's Wow.
And how much choice did you have in HOW the island developed due to the community's efforts?
And once the last part of the island was claimed by the Shatterred Sun Offensive, what other options for virtual world advancement were available?
I LOVE WoW, I really do, and it's NOTHING to do with disliking WoW, I would say the same about LOTRO, EQ2, AoC.... they're not sandbox.
Sounds WOW/TBC June 2008. The opening of the Sunwell these last months was an effort from the whole population. Made possible by doing daily quests and crafting from the whole community per server. Oh !that doesn't count because it's Wow.
And how much choice did you have in HOW the island developed due to the community's efforts?
And once the last part of the island was claimed by the Shatterred Sun Offensive, what other options for virtual world advancement were available?
I LOVE WoW, I really do, and it's NOTHING to do with disliking WoW, I would say the same about LOTRO, EQ2, AoC.... they're not sandbox.
Did it change the world ? yep
Was it reset ? Nope
For what did it change the world, when does the burning legion attacks and destroys something and that that doesn't reset?
It is just a reset. Have you even played WOW.
It is an event and a event will sooner or later resets itself.
It is all being done by steps and by blizzard. The community has changed nothing.
It is not a sandbox mmo. You keep repeating yourself with you same nonsense rumbling.
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
Sadly, all of the people who spent every waking hour escaping reality by playing sandbox mmo's got kicked out of mom's house and had to get a real job...so now they only have time to play simple games like WoW...hey! THAT'S why its so popular!
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
Sounds WOW/TBC June 2008. The opening of the Sunwell these last months was an effort from the whole population. Made possible by doing daily quests and crafting from the whole community per server. Oh !that doesn't count because it's Wow.
And how much choice did you have in HOW the island developed due to the community's efforts?
And once the last part of the island was claimed by the Shatterred Sun Offensive, what other options for virtual world advancement were available?
I LOVE WoW, I really do, and it's NOTHING to do with disliking WoW, I would say the same about LOTRO, EQ2, AoC.... they're not sandbox.
Did it change the world ? yep
Was it reset ? Nope
Could a group of players prevented it from being completed? Can a group today undo it? Is there reason to even try?
Nope, it was inevitable, just a matter of when it would happen, not if. Sandbox games let players impact that dynamic.
Contrast that with EVE, where a player alliance can literally take over and dominate vast areas of space and deny access to all who challenge their authority.
And yet, there will be those who do, and we get titanic battles between hundreds of ships and dozens of capitols...and the fight is to the death.
WOW has nothing like it, nothing at all, nor will it in the upcoming expansion.
Without Risk vs Reward you'll never have a true sandbox. It has to hurt, or its just not a real sandbox type game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Wau,.. this guy keeps going on? I start to think he's being serious with all this nonsense.
I'm afraid so...
Well, i think i got how his mind works...let's elaborate:
-He never played anything else than WoW. Being generous, i'd assume he never played any non-linear mmorpg.
-He sees ( because vision isn't tied in any way to stupidity, otherwise he couldn't find his own ass ) lots of threads with the word 'sandbox' in it.
-His primitive mind has already carved in stone the concepts of 'popular' and 'WoW', and since sandbox is mentioned so much lately, that makes 'sandbox' word popular as well.
-Following the simple formulae: IF A is the same as B, and B is the same as C, C is the same as A, this leads to him making this conclusion:
-If WoW is popular, and sandbox is popular ( refer to second point ), that MUST mean that WoW is sandbox.
As it stands now, no matter how many examples of games, mechanics, features or whatever we can think of will make a dent on his mind.
Because, you know...Blizzard invented MMORPG...everything else is just our dream of something that never happened.
Wau,.. this guy keeps going on? I start to think he's being serious with all this nonsense.
I'm afraid so...
Well, i think i got how his mind works...let's elaborate:
-He never played anything else than WoW. Being generous, i'd assume he never played any non-linear mmorpg.
-He sees ( because vision isn't tied in any way to stupidity, otherwise he couldn't find his own ass ) lots of threads with the word 'sandbox' in it.
-His primitive mind has already carved in stone the concepts of 'popular' and 'WoW', and since sandbox is mentioned so much lately, that makes 'sandbox' word popular as well.
-Following the simple formulae: IF A is the same as B, and B is the same as C, C is the same as A, this leads to him making this conclusion:
-If WoW is popular, and sandbox is popular ( refer to second point ), that MUST mean that WoW is sandbox.
As it stands now, no matter how many examples of games, mechanics, features or whatever we can think of will make a dent on his mind.
Because, you know...Blizzard invented MMORPG...everything else is just our dream of something that never happened.
Alternatively, could 1) this derail and 2) the OP's argument that the lack of "full out PvP and looting" has killed sandbox mmorpgs both be due to the fact that the "definition" of sandbox is not concrete?
Here's what I got out of reading the thread:
Many have suggested what is *not* sandbox:
Linear level design (where level = area of a mmorpg "world" in which to play)
Player character advancement associated with / limited by classes or levels
Player character advancement associated with "loot"
Restrictions on character advancement (example: linking crafting advancement to adventuring advancement)
Restrictions on gameplay (what actions a player character can take)
Static environment (world) in which to play that is not (permanently) affected by player character actions (also - Lack of player character housing)
Lack of a player character driven economy (also - Lack of means of production (crafting))
Shared environment across all players - no use of instances / multiple servers running duplicated environment
Oranges
And some have given loose definitions of what *is* sandbox:
Large unitary, dynamic environment that is open to non-linear exploration and affected by player character actions (through combat, economic, political actions, etc.)
Large selection of available actions / tools
Lack of restrictions on character design and advancement (specific to rpgs)
Cats
Some have made it clear that World of Warcraft is *not* sandbox - even at the "end game" when there is no more character advancement
Others have suggested that EVE is a good example of a sandbox mmorpg - but as an example...
Are there restrictions on character design - can you change races and their associated benefits?
Are there restrictions on character advancement - prerequisites for skills? Isn't there a time-based restriction on skill levels? Doesn't it replace character level with a group of skill levels?
Is there "loot" in EVE? Can't you take other players ships / cargo? Isn't good "loot" (for example, ships) helpful in EVE?
Are there restrictions on available character actions? Can you terraform a planet? Can you start a colony? Can you land on a planet? Can you walk?
Is the world completely dynamic - if you kill an NPC, will it respawn some time later? Can you wipe out all pirates from the game forever?
Is the economy completely character driven? Do the prices for goods ever get "reset"? Can you completely manipulate a market?
Is there a "large" selection of things to do? Are there a "large" selection of player-generated goals that are possible?
Are there any cats?
Please don't get me wrong - I'm not criticizing EVE or its gameplay - but it seems that the "rules" for what is or is not sandbox are not concrete if EVE meant to be offered as a prototypical "sandbox" mmorpg.
I think of "sandbox" play as a continuum - one game (GTA4, for example) may be more "sandboxy" than another (Mass Effect) - but it has little do do with rpg elements (such as class based vs. skill based character advancement). As a sandbox mmorpg, I'd agree that EVE is more "sandboxy" to me than World of Warcraft. But I don't feel that "sandbox" has a concrete enough definition to ridicule others that don't share my opinion.
Sadly, all of the people who spent every waking hour escaping reality by playing sandbox mmo's got kicked out of mom's house and had to get a real job...so now they only have time to play simple games like WoW...hey! THAT'S why its so popular!
Wrong, so if someone likes a challenging game that makes him a no-lifer?
What a stupid contribution you did for this thread bud. There are just as much no-lifers in WOW as in a sandbox mmorpg. Some people just like some challenge and do not prefer holding your hand game play, like i do. But i am a casual player, but a casual player who likes a challenging game because then i don't have to buy games every month.
You get the point. A challenging game offers much more and lasts much longer, with a challenging complexer game, i can spend allot of time with it while in a easy mmo or a easy game, i complete it in a few weeks.
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
Comments
Please reread an 11th time then.
We are talking of Wow end game anno June 2008. You know the one with the epic end game gear from ALL choices of play (be it BG, Arena, Crafting, Solo, Heoric dungeons, Small raids or Big raids).
Not the old 2006 pure PVE Vanilla Wow you all HATE !
That game died in Nov 2007.
You have absolutely no idea what does Sandbox mean. Because sandbox games have no end-game. Do you get it this time, or you want me to spell it?
REALITY CHECK
Do you mean that if you have any sort of option, you have a sandbox? Would that make City of Heres/Villains a sandbox? I mean I can raid, pvp, go to arena, play solo, farm, craft, etc, in CoX. When I think about sandbox I think about a little bit more than just have a list of pretty much the same thing to do (kill stuff) in different situations (different places, enemies and group sizes). To me WoW may be a great game with high replayability, but it still not meet my requirements for being a sandbox. I guess we have different views about what sandbox mean.
We're talking about one kind of fruit, not about fruits as a whole. Get a grasp.
Arguement wasn't about what kind of mmorpg is better, discussion was about only one kind of mmorpg, the sandbox style mmorpg. And you bring a linear mmorpg into discussion and claim it's a better sandbox.
There are many clear differences between both styles, and they have nothing to do with being old or new. And what you like most is a matter of opinion.
Seriously, get a clue about what a sandbox mmorpg is before spewing retarded statements like 'definition of apples isn't universal accepted'. Arrogance is one thing, but bending reality in a retarded way to make your point stand out is just claiming to be called an idiot. And i'm being generous there.
Oh well another of those "sandbox is best" rant thread. Don't you feel old now repeating that? To the OP, your argument falls apart easily.
If you want only sandbox, and you mean to play a sandbox without trying to dictate how others play, any game is a sandbox. Just ignore all the quests, all the world events, and play whatever you want: wander, explore, dance, dive down a cliff, get drown. Who stops you from doing what you want, as long as you do not interfere with other players. Of course, that means play PVE sandbox, not trying to grief or ambush the unwary PVEer.
Then you mention free loot. Now that is exactly what you mean, not sandbox. You want to be able to attack anyone you like, you like the idea of full loot. That means dictating how others play, as they have to open themselves to your uninvited aggression. What has that to do with sandbox? If all you want is the ability to fight with humans (more varied fighting style), why do you need full loot? So that you can scam, ambush, grief and humiliate those with slower eye-hand coordination, or slower internet access? Oh great, so much for your glory.
You also talk about levels. Is that odd? A true PVPer would not like levels, he may work on selection of skills, but not level, not gear. How inconsistent do you sound.
I may be jumping to conclusion, but I feel you are hypocratic, lying. You are trying to preach free loot PVP, and your title seems to be talking about sandbox. Either you confuse the 2 concepts yourself, or you are trying to confuse the readers.
Bad post.
You have absolutely no idea what does Sandbox mean. Because sandbox games have no end-game. Do you get it this time, or you want me to spell it?
See above /
)
Your defintion of an apple is but one.
I say choices of play and freedom of play to develop my character. Others say choices of play and freedom of play to develop the world.
You say: no end game at all.
A fourth person would say where players change themselves the world.
While the OP said: ganking people to take all their loot, now that was sandbox.
I just showed you ALL how HOLLOW and unde...blahblah...
No it is you who don't get it. There is no end-game in sandbox games. You were not talking about freedom and linearity, you were talking about sandbox. Don't force me to quote you again.
Sandbox game have NO CLASSES AND LEVELS. So there's basically no endgame. In sandbox you can basically group up as a newbie with players that play it for 2 years and still do your part. In sandbox you can spend 99% of time doing crafting and nothing else. In sandbox you have player driven economy and every item player crafted.
I don't care how many options does WoW have to get those silly epics. IT IS STILL ONLY ABOUT GETTING THE SILLY EPICS. You get it? WoW is nothing more, but a linear item-farm.
Ad 2: WoW has terribly limited classes. Can your paladin take a crossbow and start shooting? Can your priest start sneaking around? Can your warrior cast a fireball from time to time? NO AND HE CAN NOT EVEN LEARN IT. There is ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE FOR YOU AS A WARRIOR TO LEARN CASTING FIREBALL. You've got to reroll for that.
Ad3: Can your crafter make bardings for horses? Horseshoes..? Saddlebags? Houses?.. Guild halls? ... What about sieges? Can your crafter build siege weaponry? Or ships? Maybe zeppelins? I saw there are zeppelins in WoW. Can a crafter build these? No because 99% of things you see are fixed, unchangable, uncraftable etc..
REALITY CHECK
There are many kinds of apples, but they share enough similarities between them and enough differences from other fruits to not be called otherwise. Also, there are many kinds of oranges, but guess what...they also share many similarities and enough differences to not be called...for example...apples.
Same as...hey....let's say cats(sandbox) and dogs(linear)? Both are animals(mmorpg) but they have basic features that make them stand on one side or the other, and that's why we classify them as being in a group or another.
That's how we, human race, classify everything around us. Heck, there are millions of possible analogies to illustrate the point. But i guess you would ignore all of them. You did before, why shouldn't you do it now?
Well I can make my own helicopters.
in Wow ...
Well in WotlK you can make even duo seats to take passengers along.
Well we can built Keeps there in WotlK
As a paladin I can be a pure healer, or a pure tanking fighter or a pure warrior dps kind of guy. And indeed I can choose any 2 professions I like (jewelcrafter, engineer, different kinds of blacksmith, etc etc ...) and change any time I want.
And guess what ??? All with stats analysed to death by professional programmers with millions of analysed data.
THOUSANDS of possible end game combo's. But still lineair heuh ?
Doh, you are amazing. You really believe in what you're writing here, or you're just having a good laugh? Because I seriously doubt from your reasoning that you're serious.
You still mentioned here your silly end-game combos. I repeat myself. There is no end-game in Sandbox and just the whole fact that you believe how free you are in WoW end-game is good enough argument to say WoW is not a sandbox.
REALITY CHECK
Please reread an 11th time then.
We are talking of Wow end game anno June 2008. You know the one with the epic end game gear from ALL choices of play (be it BG, Arena, Crafting, Solo, Heoric dungeons, Small raids or Big raids).
Not the old 2006 pure PVE Vanilla Wow you all HATE !
That game died in Nov 2007.
Zandorf, let me start by saying that I play WoW and have done since release. I agree that recently Blizzard have succeeded in making viable progression through multiple methods of play. Even just doing heroic five mans will get you some lovely gear these days. Great.
But it is not a sandbox, and I take issue with your claim that the definition of sandbox is changed. You can't play with semantics like that (accurately anyway.) It is a fixed definition, with criteria that WoW does not fulfill.
One of your arguments is do to with the value of gear produced through crafting. This is an area that has improved for sure, especially with the addition of things like engineering goggles. However that avoids the point of why it is not 'sandbox' crafting. The point is that it is never your character's focus, it is a secondary aspect to the main class.
Although there may be some variety in how this is implemented, the general concept of sandbox crafting is that can be the ultimate focus of your charatcer, the aspect of the game that takes up as much of the player's gametime as PvP or PvE does to a WoW player. Some ways in which this can be evident:
- Firstly and most crucially the crafter must be able to craft without having to fight. In WoW you cannot train Artisan, Master etc. in a crafting profession without a attaining a certain character level, and that level itself has to be attained through grinding or questing. This is not sandbox crafting. The sandbox crafter may need rare components from creature kills, but will pay for them with money earned commericially or in extreme cases will be accompanied to the mob with combat players, either from their guild or payed mercenaries, or perhaps as part of the agreement for the creation of the gear.
- There has to be diversity in the statistical value of a single crafting pattern. A Windscale Hood in WoW has a set value on it's stat bonuses, with no variables to this. Because a sandbox game has crating as a viable primary playstyle, it must be possible to create better or worse versions of the same item for there to be a sense of achievement, progression and competition. A dedicated crafter needs to be able to become a known brandname - people will recognise that the broadsword created by them will be superior to the broadsword created by an amateur. This leads to a further point:
- The crafting process itself must contain a degree of complexity beyond "Gather materials, press create button." This can be evident in several different ways: A degree of gambling (failure possibilities, decision on whether to try for a better item at a greater risk of failure,) optional components, pre-production steps, experimentation methods, even cosmetic options.
Ok, so crafting is an easy example, but it highlights some other things. In a sandox MMO, character advancement cannot be just about killing stuff, which a linear MMO boils down to sooner or later, through PvE encounters or PvP.
Another big and utterly vital factor is world impact and evolution. Stuff must change based on what players do. I know you will try and quote Sunwell Isle here, so Iøll highlight why this is NOT sandbox world evolution:
- The changes that happened as Sunwell Isle progressed was fixed. First you took back the armory, then the harbour, then.. well you get the idea. For it to be sandbox, the possible changes MUST be variable.
- When a server completes Sunwell Isle, the changes are done and that is it until the next content release with similar stuff. A sanbox MMO must have constant and numerous opportunity for world change.
Some typical true sandbox implementations of world change are:
- The ability to build player structures (houses, cities, PvP bases) on the majority of the game world. This is important, PvP is never as intense as when something you build yourself is at risk of destruction or invasion. Player cities allow crafters to set up a true business, with furnished shops.
- The ability to change politiical and social situations. Often tied in with PvP, this means major cities , for example can change drastically as a new faction takes leadership.
Perhaps the main Sanbox requirement is this....
- Players should NEVER be tied to any starting choice apart from 'genetic' things like race. Class, faction, appearance... these should all be changeable to degree. In WoW, you cannot betray your faction and defect to the other side, you cannot decide that just because you born a dwarf, your character will try and befreind the city of Ogrimmar because you understand that all that evil shit was because of demonic corruption - this instrumentally stops it being a sandbox game. Yes, talent trees offer diversity within a class, but in a sandbox MMO you should be able to decide to drop half your Hunter skills so you can pick up a few Shaman and Rogue ones instead, and mix them together. The inability to EVER learn the opposing faction's languages.. sorry, in a sandbox game you could.
This is not a dig at WoW, I love WoW, but it is simply not a sandbox mmo.
Can you cast fireballs, thunderbolts, ice shards or poison foes with that very same character? NO.
Look mate, WoW is not sandbox. There's nothing right or wrong with that. It's just...not a sandbox mmorpg. I'm just saying that you forced a non-sandbox game into a sandbox-game discussion. It just doesn't belong here, that's it.
In the recently 'limboed' Saga of Ryzom, with only one character, you could wield melee weapons, heavy armor, and 1 minute later change your gear and start casting offensive spells, or even healing ones. Or even cast without changing your heavy gear ( with casting penalties applied ). In time, you could be proeficient in all kinds of combat. Know what? your skills were made of their different parts: mana consumption, cooldown, cast time, damage, etc. You could, in the middle of the field, CREATE a new skill combining the different parts, thus getting different results. Maybe an insta cast, big heal with a long mana consumption, or a short cast, short heal with very small mana consumption...and you could have a lot of CUSTOM made skills ready at any given moment. Same with melee or ranged combat skills. That's freedom. That's one of many reasons Ryzom was classified as sandbox. I'm not even gonna start explaining the awesome crafting system....
Thanks for ignoring all our detailed points and sum them up as "you're all wrong, WoW rocks, and so do i".
Congratulations on being one of countless millions of drones not even aknowledging there can be different styles. That yours is the one and only. That any one even thinking there is different stuff out there is plain wrong.
Is it hard to understand that WOW is not a SANDBOX MMORPG.
Do u even know what sandbox means? So WOTLK has keeps, will it affect the world ? No ! constructable fotresses does not make it sandbox. WOW has no economy, please play EVE if you want a player economy , everything is player crafted and in WOW, everything is done by npc's and not by players .
Crafting? Oh god, ever played SWG pre cu.
A sandbox mmorpg , you can affect the world. WOW is linear , you must be a combatent , you cannot just 100% craft and do nothing else, there are levels, classes, you craft in steps, everything is automatic , there is no , hey i control azeroth with the alliance, or hey the economy has changed and prices dropped very quickly. There is no world pvp, what are people fighting for? Gear? oh please!
WOW is not a sandbox game , WOW june 2008 has limited choices, in the end , WOW is all about raiding. Can i progress by only doing crafting? No ! Can i progress by doing from level 1 pvp? No!
The list goes on.
You haven't played a sandbox mmo and probably not even a mmo before WOW.
I am simply amazed by your ignorant posts and this is just generous from me.
-----------------------------------------------------------
the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
Bravo Zorndorf! You have just won the thread hi-jack award for June 2008. Well done my friend... WELL DONE!!!
Can you believe these folks are actually trying to defend their pitiful definitions of sandbox?? You really have them going!!
Hey - I hear the GOP committee is looking for new staff writers for their 'talking points'...
you would be a shoe in!
Bravo Zorndorf! You have just won the thread hi-jack award for June 2008. Well done my friend... WELL DONE!!!
Can you believe these folks are actually trying to defend their pitiful definitions of sandbox?? You really have them going!!
Hey - I hear the GOP committee is looking for new staff writers for their 'talking points'...
you would be a shoe in!
I am not impressed , i must say. All he does is repeats himself and doesn't put the facts in the lines.
He is subjective , if he is claiming WOW as a sandbox. Fine , but that is his opinion. The fact lies that WOW is a pure linear game and not a sandbox game.
But unfortunately, half minded people with LOW IQ's who probably have not even studied since they have no creativity only think they are the right persons. I would call them georgy boys. Incompetent morons
My analogy about the human is correct. The majority are stupid.
-----------------------------------------------------------
the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
But you ALL proved to yourselves that you all have very different definitions of a sandbox.
Just look at the OP.
And some more convincing than others I might say.
And I never said all of you were wrong in your dreams.
I only showed you all have different dreams of "sandboxes". And my dreams are just as valid as yours.
The only thing I know is that I am playing in my dream.
Off with my helicopter ...
The definition of sandbox also is stated in WIKI. Linear and sandbox are written in stones. There is only one definition and most people already explained it to you , but of course . Narrow minded people to the extremes simply refuse to understand that.
A sandbox is a virtual world, where you can affect, have choice and are free.
Please refear or look at wiki for the real facts. These people have explained it already , it is you , who cannot understand or just simply lack the understanding and IQ in my opinion.
Please look above your shoulders and please look behind the horizon instead of your numbling low IQ talk.
You have a low IQ if you do not see the difference between a fact and a subjective opinion.
-----------------------------------------------------------
the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
It's not a dream, you moron. These games existed, many people played them. And those 'definitions' you say are not definitions, are features that ( oh surprise ) most of them had. I understand an idiot like you has a very hard time understanding that a mmorpg can have other activities as important as combat in a game, but of course we're not gonna explain in detail all the features in sandboxes because, by DEFINITION, other activities are on par with combat in relevance. I mentioned some combat related features in Ryzom because, mind you, it's a game that was out for some years and people played it on their computers, not on their dreams. Others might talk about the complex crafting, or the trading, or whatever.
That's one of the reasons they're sandboxes. The relevance of many activities is on par with combat. Try to swallow that if your narrowed, arrogant mind can.
Sounds WOW/TBC June 2008.
The opening of the Sunwell these last months was an effort from the whole population.
Made possible by doing daily quests and crafting from the whole community per server.
Oh !that doesn't count because it's Wow.
Constructable keeps and crafted siege engines are already now in WotLK alfa.
Oh that doesn't count because it is Wow.
----------
The best answer I got till now is the guy who said Wow had no economy.
And all things were obtained through NPC's.
How much hate, so little substance.
So that does make it a sandbox? /laughs
It resets , kill kael thalas , oh cool, it dies, but next week you can fight it again. These enemies do not do anything, they just wait, in the sandbox world and lines, this is the opposite. Dungeons reset , blizzard can revamp there crafting system but that doesn't make it open ended. I have to follow those steps, it holds my hand principle and that's why WOW is linear. WOW is linear doesn't make it a crappy game.
wow is linear , it is a fact and it is set in stone. No matter what extra buttons you put in it , it stays at it core , the same!
Sandbox and linear can live together. They are both different and both have there qualities and negatives. You have to accept that, if you can't, you kinda make yourself look like an idiot bud.
Move aside, you repeat yourself.
wow is a good game, yet you think i hate it.
Just shows how stupid are you.
-----------------------------------------------------------
the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
Sounds WOW/TBC June 2008.
The opening of the Sunwell these last months was an effort from the whole population.
Made possible by doing daily quests and crafting from the whole community per server.
Oh !that doesn't count because it's Wow.
And how much choice did you have in HOW the island developed due to the community's efforts?
And once the last part of the island was claimed by the Shatterred Sun Offensive, what other options for virtual world advancement were available?
I LOVE WoW, I really do, and it's NOTHING to do with disliking WoW, I would say the same about LOTRO, EQ2, AoC.... they're not sandbox.
And how much choice did you have in HOW the island developed due to the community's efforts?
And once the last part of the island was claimed by the Shatterred Sun Offensive, what other options for virtual world advancement were available?
I LOVE WoW, I really do, and it's NOTHING to do with disliking WoW, I would say the same about LOTRO, EQ2, AoC.... they're not sandbox.
Did it change the world ? yep
Was it reset ? Nope
For what did it change the world, when does the burning legion attacks and destroys something and that that doesn't reset?
It is just a reset. Have you even played WOW.
It is an event and a event will sooner or later resets itself.
It is all being done by steps and by blizzard. The community has changed nothing.
It is not a sandbox mmo. You keep repeating yourself with you same nonsense rumbling.
-----------------------------------------------------------
the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
Wau,.. this guy keeps going on? I start to think he's being serious with all this nonsense.
REALITY CHECK
This is one of the most entertaining threads on the board recently. Please, do keep it going.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Sadly, all of the people who spent every waking hour escaping reality by playing sandbox mmo's got kicked out of mom's house and had to get a real job...so now they only have time to play simple games like WoW...hey! THAT'S why its so popular!
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
And how much choice did you have in HOW the island developed due to the community's efforts?
And once the last part of the island was claimed by the Shatterred Sun Offensive, what other options for virtual world advancement were available?
I LOVE WoW, I really do, and it's NOTHING to do with disliking WoW, I would say the same about LOTRO, EQ2, AoC.... they're not sandbox.
Did it change the world ? yep
Was it reset ? Nope
Could a group of players prevented it from being completed? Can a group today undo it? Is there reason to even try?
Nope, it was inevitable, just a matter of when it would happen, not if. Sandbox games let players impact that dynamic.
Contrast that with EVE, where a player alliance can literally take over and dominate vast areas of space and deny access to all who challenge their authority.
And yet, there will be those who do, and we get titanic battles between hundreds of ships and dozens of capitols...and the fight is to the death.
WOW has nothing like it, nothing at all, nor will it in the upcoming expansion.
Without Risk vs Reward you'll never have a true sandbox. It has to hurt, or its just not a real sandbox type game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm afraid so...
Well, i think i got how his mind works...let's elaborate:
-He never played anything else than WoW. Being generous, i'd assume he never played any non-linear mmorpg.
-He sees ( because vision isn't tied in any way to stupidity, otherwise he couldn't find his own ass ) lots of threads with the word 'sandbox' in it.
-His primitive mind has already carved in stone the concepts of 'popular' and 'WoW', and since sandbox is mentioned so much lately, that makes 'sandbox' word popular as well.
-Following the simple formulae: IF A is the same as B, and B is the same as C, C is the same as A, this leads to him making this conclusion:
-If WoW is popular, and sandbox is popular ( refer to second point ), that MUST mean that WoW is sandbox.
As it stands now, no matter how many examples of games, mechanics, features or whatever we can think of will make a dent on his mind.
Because, you know...Blizzard invented MMORPG...everything else is just our dream of something that never happened.
I'm afraid so...
Well, i think i got how his mind works...let's elaborate:
-He never played anything else than WoW. Being generous, i'd assume he never played any non-linear mmorpg.
-He sees ( because vision isn't tied in any way to stupidity, otherwise he couldn't find his own ass ) lots of threads with the word 'sandbox' in it.
-His primitive mind has already carved in stone the concepts of 'popular' and 'WoW', and since sandbox is mentioned so much lately, that makes 'sandbox' word popular as well.
-Following the simple formulae: IF A is the same as B, and B is the same as C, C is the same as A, this leads to him making this conclusion:
-If WoW is popular, and sandbox is popular ( refer to second point ), that MUST mean that WoW is sandbox.
As it stands now, no matter how many examples of games, mechanics, features or whatever we can think of will make a dent on his mind.
Because, you know...Blizzard invented MMORPG...everything else is just our dream of something that never happened.
Alternatively, could 1) this derail and 2) the OP's argument that the lack of "full out PvP and looting" has killed sandbox mmorpgs both be due to the fact that the "definition" of sandbox is not concrete?
Here's what I got out of reading the thread:
Many have suggested what is *not* sandbox:
And some have given loose definitions of what *is* sandbox:
Some have made it clear that World of Warcraft is *not* sandbox - even at the "end game" when there is no more character advancement
Others have suggested that EVE is a good example of a sandbox mmorpg - but as an example...
Please don't get me wrong - I'm not criticizing EVE or its gameplay - but it seems that the "rules" for what is or is not sandbox are not concrete if EVE meant to be offered as a prototypical "sandbox" mmorpg.
I think of "sandbox" play as a continuum - one game (GTA4, for example) may be more "sandboxy" than another (Mass Effect) - but it has little do do with rpg elements (such as class based vs. skill based character advancement). As a sandbox mmorpg, I'd agree that EVE is more "sandboxy" to me than World of Warcraft. But I don't feel that "sandbox" has a concrete enough definition to ridicule others that don't share my opinion.
Wrong, so if someone likes a challenging game that makes him a no-lifer?
What a stupid contribution you did for this thread bud. There are just as much no-lifers in WOW as in a sandbox mmorpg. Some people just like some challenge and do not prefer holding your hand game play, like i do. But i am a casual player, but a casual player who likes a challenging game because then i don't have to buy games every month.
You get the point. A challenging game offers much more and lasts much longer, with a challenging complexer game, i can spend allot of time with it while in a easy mmo or a easy game, i complete it in a few weeks.
-----------------------------------------------------------
the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn