Before AoC fans jump on me I should reenforce I do not own a copy of the game. I am not trying to toss salt at it. I have no credibility at all when it comes to the title. I can only make guesses from what AoC fans inform me. <Disclaimer>
Sandboxes in development right now: Infiniti Earth (Amazing next gen version of EVE) Fallen Earth (Check out the forum) Well Online Darkfall (Most likely an investment scam) Mortal Online (Very early) Earthrise (Very early)
As of right now, your best bet for a sandbox/skill-based game is Fallen Earth as it has been in development for several years and appears to be very much in a playable form. After that who knows.
Yep: all "in development" ).
or to use your own words : one of them even ".... appears (sic) to be very much in a playable form".
Others are rated as (possible investment scams or very early... (meaning on paper).)
meanwhile reread what I said about a game with just a few new loose elements of sandbox and see HOW it impacted its gameplay.
You are simply wrong. There have been games in the past that allowed a lot more than 100 players in a given area and didn't crash the server.
AoC suffers from high graphical demands.
AoC (which I play) resembles NOTHING of a sandbox. If you had played UO or Pre-CU SWG, you would know the difference.
28 pages and still going, lol. The simple truth of the matter is that, people have differances of opinion. The few who think that games like WOW and AOC are sandbox mmo's really believe that and no matter how much back and forth analyzing will change that.
It would be like a far left Dem trying to change the most conservative Rep, just won't happen. The few here that seem to have their opinion so far on the opposite side from all others are the type of people that are from the same mold as the ones who still play SW NGE and try and convience others that the game population is still thriving and healthy.
WOW is rot on the brain and if your a deeply entrenched fanboi, no matter what anyone says, they see it as their lord and savor.
NEW element : important: .... All good designed MMORPG have sandbox elements in them. Whether you like it or not. No use bending this. But it is trivial to discuss this because the total implementation of a real sandbox game is NON existent. Why? Look at Conan TODAY on these forums: they finally found out now that in allowing 100 people to ONE zone made the game not even playable. Immens FPS drops of course due to the laughable data manipulations needed to annimate the thing in the "sandboxes of siege sytems". Guess what happens with so called "real real real sandbox games" where the players are totally FREE to change the worlds. So I only see the evolution of SOME elements of sandboxes. Like crafting a house or a keep BUT VERY WELL preprogrammed AND controlled by the developpers. Now keep on dreaming and look what I always stated : I believe in polished prepared MMORPG's with proper analysed gameplay (and here and there sandbox elelements). All the rest is: PERSONAL definitions.
Zorndorf, I have read alot of this thread and I must say your points are like looking at medow through a forest of Trees. You have only ever scratched the surface of what a true "Sandbox MMORPG" is, for further description go back to I think page 26 of this post and read my post. You really don't know what your talking about I hate to say it, you either:
a) are just messing around trying to tick people off hence your a troll
b) Really believe this crap that you are posting and don't know any better
c) your a moron that has no idea what he is talking about.
Well to me I think you fall in to the b category, so why don't you sign up for more games then WOW, and see what real MMO's are like. EQ is still around do there free trial, why not try Asheron's Call out, even Second Life and EVE. Don't put in 2 hours on each, finish the trials and play them as much as you played WOW. If by the end of that you still don't understand then I guess you can stick to your Linear based MMO's.
For the rest of us we have played most of these games and fully understand the evolution of MMO's today and if you start saying AOC or WOW are the pinicale of MMO's then I feel very sad for the imagination of todays youths. I was only in final Beta for AOC and I can say that game was definatly not a "Sandbox", I played WOW from Beta for about a year and I know that game is not a "Sandbox". You are right on one thing though, every MMO out has "Sandbox" elements in it in some way shape or form, except for 1.
That is right there is only 1 true full blown "Sandbox MMORPG" out there right now, and its name is Second Life. Unfortunatly I don't qualify it as a game at all though because there is nothing to strive for at all, and that is why I don't play it. Entertainment factor of a game means that there has to be something to strive for a goal at some point. That is the first step back into a Linear MMO, and that step is shown in EVE. Eve is the closest thing to a True "Sandbox MMORPG" that we have out on the market, the only problem as I have stated in a previous thread is the skill system, it is a linear based learning curve, this moves it away from a "Sandbox MMORPG".
Now I have gone through this all before so I will address a different part of this post, your statement, "Look at Conan TODAY on these forums: they finally found out now that in allowing 100 people to ONE zone made the game not even playable. Immens FPS drops of course due to the laughable data manipulations needed to annimate the thing in the "sandboxes of siege sytems"." Many MANY games have allowed more then 100 people into one zone for an event or PvP battle, Funcom has even had this issue before, anyone remember the Open Beta for Anarchy Online? The point I am making is back in the day with Asheron's Call I can remember 200 or more easy people all battling it out on the PvP server right at the newb login areas. I mean it was mass chaos. Back then that game was not state of the art but it pushed your machine, and they were able to do it no problem, so why haven't companies like Funcom learned from others on how to do things like no instancing properly?
Anyways another issue your doing is comparing WOW to "Sandbox" by saying "At end game" Whoa right there, we are not talking End game to begin with. We are talking the game as a whole, not just one portion of the game. Besides even WOW's End game is not a "Sandbox" you are still pigoen holed into a class, and 1 of 3 talent trees or a mixture. Not to mention some people won't even allow you into there Raids if your not a specific talent spec. Your progression at End game is to find better gear that is it, and the fact that there is an "end game" is another issue with WOW not being a Sandbox. Let me ask you this, can you be effective logging in for the first time and getting invited into an Onyxia Raid? No you can't it just disqualified itself as a "Sandbox MMORPG" right there, but 1 or 2 elements of "Sandbox" are there. You can pick a direction and start running right from login, will you get far probably not but it is your choice to do that. Do you have to quest at all in the game, no you don't that is your choice. That is where the "Sandbox" Title ends with WOW, the rest of the game is a Linear Spoon Feed Game no different then the RPG's of old like "Pools of Radiance" The only difference is there is a chat engine to converse with others.
NEW element : important: .... All good designed MMORPG have sandbox elements in them. Whether you like it or not. No use bending this. But it is trivial to discuss this because the total implementation of a real sandbox game is NON existent. Why? Look at Conan TODAY on these forums: they finally found out now that in allowing 100 people to ONE zone made the game not even playable. Immens FPS drops of course due to the laughable data manipulations needed to annimate the thing in the "sandboxes of siege sytems". Guess what happens with so called "real real real sandbox games" where the players are totally FREE to change the worlds. So I only see the evolution of SOME elements of sandboxes. Like crafting a house or a keep BUT VERY WELL preprogrammed AND controlled by the developpers. Now keep on dreaming and look what I always stated : I believe in polished prepared MMORPG's with proper analysed gameplay (and here and there sandbox elelements). All the rest is: PERSONAL definitions.
Zorndorf, I have read alot of this thread and I must say your points are like looking at medow through a forest of Trees. You have only ever scratched the surface of what a true "Sandbox MMORPG" is, for further description go back to I think page 26 of this post and read my post. You really don't know what your talking about I hate to say it, you either:
a) are just messing around trying to tick people off hence your a troll
b) Really believe this crap that you are posting and don't know any better
c) your a moron that has no idea what he is talking about.
Well to me I think you fall in to the b category, so why don't you sign up for more games then WOW, and see what real MMO's are like. EQ is still around do there free trial, why not try Asheron's Call out, even Second Life and EVE. Don't put in 2 hours on each, finish the trials and play them as much as you played WOW. If by the end of that you still don't understand then I guess you can stick to your Linear based MMO's.
For the rest of us we have played most of these games and fully understand the evolution of MMO's today and if you start saying AOC or WOW are the pinicale of MMO's then I feel very sad for the imagination of todays youths. I was only in final Beta for AOC and I can say that game was definatly not a "Sandbox", I played WOW from Beta for about a year and I know that game is not a "Sandbox". You are right on one thing though, every MMO out has "Sandbox" elements in it in some way shape or form, except for 1.
That is right there is only 1 true full blown "Sandbox MMORPG" out there right now, and its name is Second Life. Unfortunatly I don't qualify it as a game at all though because there is nothing to strive for at all, and that is why I don't play it. Entertainment factor of a game means that there has to be something to strive for a goal at some point. That is the first step back into a Linear MMO, and that step is shown in EVE. Eve is the closest thing to a True "Sandbox MMORPG" that we have out on the market, the only problem as I have stated in a previous thread is the skill system, it is a linear based learning curve, this moves it away from a "Sandbox MMORPG".
Now I have gone through this all before so I will address a different part of this post, your statement, "Look at Conan TODAY on these forums: they finally found out now that in allowing 100 people to ONE zone made the game not even playable. Immens FPS drops of course due to the laughable data manipulations needed to annimate the thing in the "sandboxes of siege sytems"." Many MANY games have allowed more then 100 people into one zone for an event or PvP battle, Funcom has even had this issue before, anyone remember the Open Beta for Anarchy Online? The point I am making is back in the day with Asheron's Call I can remember 200 or more easy people all battling it out on the PvP server right at the newb login areas. I mean it was mass chaos. Back then that game was not state of the art but it pushed your machine, and they were able to do it no problem, so why haven't companies like Funcom learned from others on how to do things like no instancing properly?
Anyways another issue your doing is comparing WOW to "Sandbox" by saying "At end game" Whoa right there, we are not talking End game to begin with. We are talking the game as a whole, not just one portion of the game. Besides even WOW's End game is not a "Sandbox" you are still pigoen holed into a class, and 1 of 3 talent trees or a mixture. Not to mention some people won't even allow you into there Raids if your not a specific talent spec. Your progression at End game is to find better gear that is it, and the fact that there is an "end game" is another issue with WOW not being a Sandbox. Let me ask you this, can you be effective logging in for the first time and getting invited into an Onyxia Raid? No you can't it just disqualified itself as a "Sandbox MMORPG" right there, but 1 or 2 elements of "Sandbox" are there. You can pick a direction and start running right from login, will you get far probably not but it is your choice to do that. Do you have to quest at all in the game, no you don't that is your choice. That is where the "Sandbox" Title ends with WOW, the rest of the game is a Linear Spoon Feed Game no different then the RPG's of old like "Pools of Radiance" The only difference is there is a chat engine to converse with others.
But he can make helicopters and sell them on the auction house. What do you mean, that's not sandbox? LOL!
All right. This is gonna be a lengthy post. I promised myself to write this down in case this thread was still going strong after I got up today, so here goes.
A comparison between the Sandbox-elements in one of the games considered very close to Sandbox-ideal and the supposed Sandbox-elements Mr. Zorndorf likes to bring up in his post:
The story begins with EVE Online. Once upon a time, two Alliances were in a Major conflict against each other. They had for a time managed to leave each other alone, but the politics and the rapid expansion of one of those Alliances, plus a sense of "idealism" of the other Alliance made them eventuall clash in battle. They fought and fought for control of systems, to drive their enemies out of newly acquired space. We shall call the Alliances Northern Alliance and Southern Alliance in the remainder of this story.
Now, once upon a time in World of Warcraft. Two factions that have been at War for a long time have entered an uneasy truce due to a common threat that was only recently ended. The Burning Legion is however still a very present threat, evidence of which can be seen in the Shattered Lands. The Truce then, remains, but skirmishes continue to break out. Horde and Alliance fight for control of Valleys, Gulches and Basins. However no matter how often the armies of the two factions clash, they can never manage to actually take one of the supposedly critical places over which they continually fight.
Back in EVE, the war between the two Alliances is reaching an all time high. battles are fought almost on a day to day basis, ranging from small skirmishes with 5 ships on each side to invasion fleets numbering in the 300eds trying to lay waste to the Stations and Structures of each other. Battles remain inconclusive howver. For each won, another is lost. For each push of the Northern Alliance, the Southern counters. The Diplomats of both Alliances are working overtime, trying to gain allies in their fight. Eventually, more an more smaller Alliances join the Norther Alliance. A slight shift of power and thus, a slightly favorable shift in victories can be noticed. The NA manages some decisive victories, driving the SA from a few key systems and now staging attacks into the -home- systems of the SA.
Back in WoW. As countless undecisive battles are fought, other options open up and more importantly, other developments in the course of the World. The Sunwell is to be cleansed. The heroes of the World set out to do it and, in a huge, joint effort, over time, they manage it. Their enemy never stood a chance. The heroes kept coming and coming until at long last, the Sunwell was cleansed, the mission accomplished. The two sides congratulated each other, patted each other on the back...and then went back to fight the battles that could, for the life of them, not be decided.
In EVE, the SA has secretly been preparing to build and launch another Titan, the hugest ships to ever prowl the SPace-lanes. Gargantuan in size, they are a huge effort to build and only a handful of Alliances have the capability to do so. For it to succeed, you need a powerful -INDUSTRIAL- backbone in the Alliance. Hundreds of player-built stations, havesting materials and refining them into materials with which still other characters can start producing the parts. And not just of the ship, a Spacedock for these kinds of ships must first be built and -then- you could think about actually building such a monster. Billions and billions of currency flowed into the construction of it, an effort only made possible by the co-operation of hundreds and hundreds of players. The Production had been started in secret, but, close to the actual finishing of the project, spies from the NA managed to find out details about said project. Needless to say, the Northern Alliance was not pleased with this development.
In WoW, one of the most seasoned crafters in the World decides to craft -the- ultimate Weapon, hoping that by doing this, he might stand a better chance at fighting in the ever indecisive battle. He is not secretive about it. He starts gathering the materials, flying through the Shattered Lands on his trusted Epic Mount, locating spots of minerals and enemies whom he knows have the ingredients he needs. By himself he gathers the first parts of the weapon. Eventually, he realizes that for some of the ingredients, he must venture into the deeper, darker places of the world, so he asks in his Guild of trusted people. Sure, they take him along. He spends some of his DKP on the next Black Temple runs to gain the Essences he needs. The materials are complete, the crafting can begin....and is done. With the newly crafted weapon in hand, the Master Smith and Famed Warrior returns to the battles...not to make a difference.
The Northern Alliance sets plans into motion, quickly made plans to assemble one of the largest fleets yet, two Fleets actually, one comprised of smaller ships, the other of the larger Capital Ships to assault the Space-Dock in which the Titan is -known- to be built. Fleet move to rendezvous with each other and slowly, the juggernaut sets itself into motion, aiming for a strike into the heart of the SA. Noteably, the NA can only even manage such a strike because they already have -one- of the gigantic Titan ships, capable of launching fleets through self-generated Jump-Portals. The addition of -another- Titan to the enemies Forces it to be prevented at all costs! And then, the attack commences. Having recently secured the additional help from a Mercenary Alliance, the Southern Alliance awaits the Northern Alliance in the System of the attack. The Northern Alliance is hellbent on destroying the Spaceyard, that is the only goal. All costs are acceptable if this one thing is achieved. The Dreadnoughts, Motherships and Carriers unload their deadly potential while the defenders assembled fleet begins to strike back. A huge battle (and lagfest XD) ensues. The Southern Alliance kills capital ship after capital ship while the Northern Alliance continues to fire upon the Space-dock.
In the end, the Northern Alliance -wins- the day. They manage to destroy the Spacedock, albeit at huge losses of ships, the worth of which numbers in the billions alone. And only a few hours later, the Southern Alliance announces that the whole thing had been a setup. That the Station the Northerners attacked had not been harboring a Titan, that they had purposefully planted this information to weaken the Northern Alliances Capital Fleet considerably. That they had done. With so many losses and no ability to replace them -that- quickly, plus the loss of morale due to the setup, the Northern Alliance is pushed out of SA space and pushed back. Together with the Mercenary Alliance, the Southern Alliance takes System after system from the invaders. The Northern Alliance eventually breaks apart, disbands, scatters and the territories are divided among the victorious.
In WoW, the battles between the two major Factions have still not changed the balance of power at all. Rumors have it that there will soon be a new area to be skirmished over. Not just with Swords and magic, but with Sieging Weapons. The warriors of both sides prepare themselves, while waiting for the next possibility to "change" the world in a group effort.
----------------
So...there you have it. The events in EVE Online are described from my personal experience (they may be somewhat biased and some information may be seen differently by others, such as the NA attack on the Shipyard, but I think the point gets across). I have -personally- witnessed this huge shifts in Power in the EVE Universe. An Alliance of thousands of players being driven back and eventually shattered by the concentrated efforts of another group in the game, which thereby gained more territory and a lot more hatred from other Alliances. XD
WoW is not any special example. It is what you do in the game. I know it. I've played it, complete with the Burning Crusade AddOn. I may not have raided, but I have several friends who do.
Now I know some people are a lost cause, but I hope this helps to illustrate a little bit why some people -might- consider EVE a much more -sandboxy- game and WoW not sandbox at all.
Okay, Logic? This is the challenge I mentioned earlier. Go back to durnholde in caverns of time, and Kill Thrall, Prevent the horde from being under his leadership
All right. This is gonna be a lengthy post. I promised myself to write this down in case this thread was still going strong after I got up today, so here goes.
A comparison between the Sandbox-elements in one of the games considered very close to Sandbox-ideal and the supposed Sandbox-elements Mr. Zorndorf likes to bring up in his post:
The story begins with EVE Online. Once upon a time, two Alliances were in a Major conflict against each other. They had for a time managed to leave each other alone, but the politics and the rapid expansion of one of those Alliances, plus a sense of "idealism" of the other Alliance made them eventuall clash in battle. They fought and fought for control of systems, to drive their enemies out of newly acquired space. We shall call the Alliances Northern Alliance and Southern Alliance in the remainder of this story.
Now, once upon a time in World of Warcraft. Two factions that have been at War for a long time have entered an uneasy truce due to a common threat that was only recently ended. The Burning Legion is however still a very present threat, evidence of which can be seen in the Shattered Lands. The Truce then, remains, but skirmishes continue to break out. Horde and Alliance fight for control of Valleys, Gulches and Basins. However no matter how often the armies of the two factions clash, they can never manage to actually take one of the supposedly critical places over which they continually fight.
Back in EVE, the war between the two Alliances is reaching an all time high. battles are fought almost on a day to day basis, ranging from small skirmishes with 5 ships on each side to invasion fleets numbering in the 300eds trying to lay waste to the Stations and Structures of each other. Battles remain inconclusive howver. For each won, another is lost. For each push of the Northern Alliance, the Southern counters. The Diplomats of both Alliances are working overtime, trying to gain allies in their fight. Eventually, more an more smaller Alliances join the Norther Alliance. A slight shift of power and thus, a slightly favorable shift in victories can be noticed. The NA manages some decisive victories, driving the SA from a few key systems and now staging attacks into the -home- systems of the SA.
Back in WoW. As countless undecisive battles are fought, other options open up and more importantly, other developments in the course of the World. The Sunwell is to be cleansed. The heroes of the World set out to do it and, in a huge, joint effort, over time, they manage it. Their enemy never stood a chance. The heroes kept coming and coming until at long last, the Sunwell was cleansed, the mission accomplished. The two sides congratulated each other, patted each other on the back...and then went back to fight the battles that could, for the life of them, not be decided.
In EVE, the SA has secretly been preparing to build and launch another Titan, the hugest ships to ever prowl the SPace-lanes. Gargantuan in size, they are a huge effort to build and only a handful of Alliances have the capability to do so. For it to succeed, you need a powerful -INDUSTRIAL- backbone in the Alliance. Hundreds of player-built stations, havesting materials and refining them into materials with which still other characters can start producing the parts. And not just of the ship, a Spacedock for these kinds of ships must first be built and -then- you could think about actually building such a monster. Billions and billions of currency flowed into the construction of it, an effort only made possible by the co-operation of hundreds and hundreds of players. The Production had been started in secret, but, close to the actual finishing of the project, spies from the NA managed to find out details about said project. Needless to say, the Northern Alliance was not pleased with this development.
In WoW, one of the most seasoned crafters in the World decides to craft -the- ultimate Weapon, hoping that by doing this, he might stand a better chance at fighting in the ever indecisive battle. He is not secretive about it. He starts gathering the materials, flying through the Shattered Lands on his trusted Epic Mount, locating spots of minerals and enemies whom he knows have the ingredients he needs. By himself he gathers the first parts of the weapon. Eventually, he realizes that for some of the ingredients, he must venture into the deeper, darker places of the world, so he asks in his Guild of trusted people. Sure, they take him along. He spends some of his DKP on the next Black Temple runs to gain the Essences he needs. The materials are complete, the crafting can begin....and is done. With the newly crafted weapon in hand, the Master Smith and Famed Warrior returns to the battles...not to make a difference.
The Northern Alliance sets plans into motion, quickly made plans to assemble one of the largest fleets yet, two Fleets actually, one comprised of smaller ships, the other of the larger Capital Ships to assault the Space-Dock in which the Titan is -known- to be built. Fleet move to rendezvous with each other and slowly, the juggernaut sets itself into motion, aiming for a strike into the heart of the SA. Noteably, the NA can only even manage such a strike because they already have -one- of the gigantic Titan ships, capable of launching fleets through self-generated Jump-Portals. The addition of -another- Titan to the enemies Forces it to be prevented at all costs! And then, the attack commences. Having recently secured the additional help from a Mercenary Alliance, the Southern Alliance awaits the Northern Alliance in the System of the attack. The Northern Alliance is hellbent on destroying the Spaceyard, that is the only goal. All costs are acceptable if this one thing is achieved. The Dreadnoughts, Motherships and Carriers unload their deadly potential while the defenders assembled fleet begins to strike back. A huge battle (and lagfest XD) ensues. The Southern Alliance kills capital ship after capital ship while the Northern Alliance continues to fire upon the Space-dock.
In the end, the Northern Alliance -wins- the day. They manage to destroy the Spacedock, albeit at huge losses of ships, the worth of which numbers in the billions alone. And only a few hours later, the Southern Alliance announces that the whole thing had been a setup. That the Station the Northerners attacked had not been harboring a Titan, that they had purposefully planted this information to weaken the Northern Alliances Capital Fleet considerably. That they had done. With so many losses and no ability to replace them -that- quickly, plus the loss of morale due to the setup, the Northern Alliance is pushed out of SA space and pushed back. Together with the Mercenary Alliance, the Southern Alliance takes System after system from the invaders. The Northern Alliance eventually breaks apart, disbands, scatters and the territories are divided among the victorious.
In WoW, the battles between the two major Factions have still not changed the balance of power at all. Rumors have it that there will soon be a new area to be skirmished over. Not just with Swords and magic, but with Sieging Weapons. The warriors of both sides prepare themselves, while waiting for the next possibility to "change" the world in a group effort.
---------------- So...there you have it. The events in EVE Online are described from my personal experience (they may be somewhat biased and some information may be seen differently by others, such as the NA attack on the Shipyard, but I think the point gets across). I have -personally- witnessed this huge shifts in Power in the EVE Universe. An Alliance of thousands of players being driven back and eventually shattered by the concentrated efforts of another group in the game, which thereby gained more territory and a lot more hatred from other Alliances. XD
WoW is not any special example. It is what you do in the game. I know it. I've played it, complete with the Burning Crusade AddOn. I may not have raided, but I have several friends who do.
Now I know some people are a lost cause, but I hope this helps to illustrate a little bit why some people -might- consider EVE a much more -sandboxy- game and WoW not sandbox at all.
Cheers!
This was a good read that's why I have been playing EVE for the length of time I have.
The Mortal Online guys are blogging here as well. I just read their blog on their attributes system (here on this site) and it blew my socks off
I am preordering WAR because it should be good but I cant wait for a great sandbox too. I want lots of options and games to play. right now all I have is EVE. I love it. But I'm a rolling stone I need more to get my fix
if you have levels and a trail you have to walk down that funnels you and 9 million other poor slobs to the next mindless objective to your next mindless level ...then your not in a sandbox.
since wow came out i have been in several other games looking for my sandbox/swg fix and the general chat is spammed tight with wow whores going on and on about the glory of ....whatever
why do i have to read all this wow crap while looking at a thread im actually intrested in finding good info on!
good chance this will get deleted cause it sounds angry or whatever . but really ...get something other to do with your time then flood off topic in every place . you suck. go ask a pez dispencer for a life! WOOT! :P
Thank you for submitting all your own defintions of sandboxes. I ve seen about 8 different definitions here. To the last poster. Tx for the effort. But my main goal here was to show that WOW/TBC Anno 2008 changed a LOT since Nov 2007. And I guess with the constructable fortresses in WotlK with the added siege engine systems...these are just a next step in further evolution to even more choices of play (and crafting ) . I agree with most of what you all said BTW. ----- As for stealth: well my paladin crafted a tool I can do stealth with ) and indeed I can craft a rocket launcher doing BIG distance damage. (just teasing but I can ...) But have a nice day in that universal unexsistent universe called sandbox.
Serious, why are all these drones cannot see other play styles.
Is it hard to understand that WOW is not a SANDBOX MMORPG.
Do u even know what sandbox means? So WOTLK has keeps, will it affect the world ? No ! constructable fotresses does not make it sandbox. WOW has no economy, please play EVE if you want a player economy , everything is player crafted and in WOW, everything is done by npc's and not by players .
Crafting? Oh god, ever played SWG pre cu.
A sandbox mmorpg , you can affect the world. WOW is linear , you must be a combatent , you cannot just 100% craft and do nothing else, there are levels, classes, you craft in steps, everything is automatic , there is no , hey i control azeroth with the alliance, or hey the economy has changed and prices dropped very quickly. There is no world pvp, what are people fighting for? Gear? oh please!
WOW is not a sandbox game , WOW june 2008 has limited choices, in the end , WOW is all about raiding. Can i progress by only doing crafting? No ! Can i progress by doing from level 1 pvp? No!
The list goes on.
You haven't played a sandbox mmo and probably not even a mmo before WOW.
....
Interesting, that's the same argument I always make to about the ability to be a "pure" crafter. Not trying to bring up a debate again but just got a chance to rewind back a few pages
Trying to have an argument with some people is like trying to have an argument with a stone wall. There is no point in this thread other to say that either:
Zorndorf is right and you will never see another sandbox game, since everything has been assimilated by the borg equivalent of MMOs to the point where people can't really tell what sandbox is.
Zorndorf is wrong and there is still hope for some diversity within the gender.
In the end it doesn't really matter, since MMO companies make games for their perceived client crowd. And since these boards represent only a minority of users around the globe, it's really hard to tell where this gender is headed. So, we're only left with or meager attempts to over-analyse things and trying to put an idea to the test of argument. Some people however refuse to open themselves to the possibility that other points of view on the same argument can be equally valid.
So why argue with them? Blocking here works wonders for my piece of mind. Just wished I could disable quoting.
i will give you a 100% perfect example of a "true" sandbox game. whether it will come out or anything related to that is questionable, but the perfect example of a true sandbox game is one called darkfall. it has every statement that others have posted about sandbox games except "in my opinion" the false, misguided, or stupid ones. and yeah, WoW is not anywhere NEAR sandbox, but they do make an attempt (meaning they have some sandbox features), a sad attempt none-the-less, but an attempt. darkfall is THE best example of a sandbox game, read the majority of the features it has, i'm sure ALL non-stupid people here will agree that it IS a sandbox game. thanks for your time.
i will give you a 100% perfect example of a "true" sandbox game. whether it will come out or anything related to that is questionable, but the perfect example of a true sandbox game is one called darkfall. it has every statement that others have posted about sandbox games except "in my opinion" the false, misguided, or stupid ones. and yeah, WoW is not anywhere NEAR sandbox, but they do make an attempt (meaning they have some sandbox features), a sad attempt none-the-less, but an attempt. darkfall is THE best example of a sandbox game, read the majority of the features it has, i'm sure ALL non-stupid people here will agree that it IS a sandbox game. thanks for your time.
Very impressive. Someone put up his first post to offer a solution to WoW, and his solution is an utopia affair. Darkfall has not yet been produced, its only promised. If I can trade a promise for a business like WoW, I am better than the best magician on earth. I will promise you the moon, if you give me your monthly salary. What? you want the sun as well? Sure I can offer you a blank sheet and let you write anything you wanted. All promised. Just add a cheeseburger to your side of the deal.
The sandbox argument is getting old. A game is good not because it is a sandbox alone. A game is good if it has features that captures the imagination of gamers. SWG was once good. not just b/c its a sandbox, its a game that is designed in which everyone matters. Its a game that give the SW feel. DAoC os good as it offers a RVR form of contest, for the WoW lover, WoW is good b/c it delivers on the fantasy of WC world, ...
Just building a sandbox for the sake of sandboxing, with no good features, will only give that sandbox game. Its no more than that, and business has already proven that its not yet a viable business solution. Not enough player base to make it a big business. Sandbox alone will not pull that many sub to keep a large MMO floating, we need more features.
Keep chanting or arguing if sandbox is all you care for irrespective of game quality or content. Petition to the whitehouse, post here or pull up a banner outside your house. That won't solve the problem. Do come up with a game (design and total package) which fits your defintion of a sandbox and packed with enough (does not need to be many) features that captures the hearts of enough PAYING customers. That is a start. Till then, all talks no muscle.
In the meantime, if you really want Sandbox, sub to any major game with a big world, and ignore all the content. Do what you want, within the limits of the game. No game is totally without limits. Can you walk on the planet in Eve? No. Can you flying a flying mount in UO? No. All games are built with limits. Even a supposing Sandbox.
Originally posted by Orthedos Very impressive. Someone put up his first post to offer a solution to WoW, and his solution is an utopia affair. Darkfall has not yet been produced, its only promised. If I can trade a promise for a business like WoW, I am better than the best magician on earth. I will promise you the moon, if you give me your monthly salary. What? you want the sun as well? Sure I can offer you a blank sheet and let you write anything you wanted. All promised. Just add a cheeseburger to your side of the deal. The sandbox argument is getting old. A game is good not because it is a sandbox alone. A game is good if it has features that captures the imagination of gamers. SWG was once good. not just b/c its a sandbox, its a game that is designed in which everyone matters. Its a game that give the SW feel. DAoC os good as it offers a RVR form of contest, for the WoW lover, WoW is good b/c it delivers on the fantasy of WC world, ... Just building a sandbox for the sake of sandboxing, with no good features, will only give that sandbox game. Its no more than that, and business has already proven that its not yet a viable business solution. Not enough player base to make it a big business. Sandbox alone will not pull that many sub to keep a large MMO floating, we need more features. Keep chanting or arguing if sandbox is all you care for irrespective of game quality or content. Petition to the whitehouse, post here or pull up a banner outside your house. That won't solve the problem. Do come up with a game (design and total package) which fits your defintion of a sandbox and packed with enough (does not need to be many) features that captures the hearts of enough PAYING customers. That is a start. Till then, all talks no muscle. In the meantime, if you really want Sandbox, sub to any major game with a big world, and ignore all the content. Do what you want, within the limits of the game. No game is totally without limits. Can you walk on the planet in Eve? No. Can you flying a flying mount in UO? No. All games are built with limits. Even a supposing Sandbox.
Very well said.
Look like this thread is very entertaining, but...hmm...27 pages, exam coming next week...
Anyway, should it be sandbox or not, I do see that many people don't want a linear gameplay or scheduled working hours, which most of them are older MMORPG gamers, I do hope that after WoW brings lots lots of new players into the MMORPG world, there will be another MMORPG which can achieve a great amount of players(no matter how good a MMORPG is, if for some reason there are not much players around, it won't be fun) and is a more freestyle game with good features, for us, as well as for those new players ,which will become old players.
MMO played (paid): AION DragonRaja Dungeons & Dragons Online Lineage Lineage 2 Tibia Ultima Online Warhammer Online World of Warcraft
MMO tried: Atlantica Online Darkfall Dead Frontier Dungeon Runners EverQuest Lord of the Rings Online Monster Hunter Frontier Online Ragnarok Online Requiem Runes of Magic Runescape The 4th Coming
2.) Your character cannot become a crafter-only character (you can try to prove me wrong, but the fact is that WoW design these professions as a sub-professions to the class system, so you cannot have the freedom to be just a crafter.)
I don't care if it's a sandbox or linear: I WANT TO BE ONLY A TRADER/FARMER on a PvE server. That's it. No lumping 20 zillion raws in a middle of level 100 monsters that a crafter could never fight off. I want to grow my own mats, sell them. Maybe make some clothes. But just want to be a crafter without the silly limitations for wanting to be one.
It's soooooo simple. And I KNOW I'm not the only gamer who just wants to do something different than killing rats and bunnies for 100 levels, for Christ sake!
Can we just have a pure crafting class. Make it challenging but not boring (like the EQII crafting UI, most boring mini-game in existence). Don't care if I have to make rivets to make something, but at least it's a full time occupation, instead of a sidebar thing to do between fighting. Crafting gets zero respect in gaming now, as anyone can do it on the side. The result is too much goods, too little profit, and no professionalism.
And yes, mastercrafted goods should be superior to drops. What purpose is it to level as a tradesman when drops are more important/powerful???? Drops don't need to be gear, drops can be title; a castle (take a cue from Oblivion's extensions); or something that can't be made.
Comments
Before AoC fans jump on me I should reenforce I do not own a copy of the game. I am not trying to toss salt at it. I have no credibility at all when it comes to the title. I can only make guesses from what AoC fans inform me. <Disclaimer>
Yep: all "in development"
).
or to use your own words : one of them even ".... appears (sic) to be very much in a playable form".
Others are rated as (possible investment scams or very early... (meaning on paper).)
meanwhile reread what I said about a game with just a few new loose elements of sandbox and see HOW it impacted its gameplay.
You are simply wrong. There have been games in the past that allowed a lot more than 100 players in a given area and didn't crash the server.
AoC suffers from high graphical demands.
AoC (which I play) resembles NOTHING of a sandbox. If you had played UO or Pre-CU SWG, you would know the difference.
Tecmo Bowl.
28 pages and still going, lol. The simple truth of the matter is that, people have differances of opinion. The few who think that games like WOW and AOC are sandbox mmo's really believe that and no matter how much back and forth analyzing will change that.
It would be like a far left Dem trying to change the most conservative Rep, just won't happen. The few here that seem to have their opinion so far on the opposite side from all others are the type of people that are from the same mold as the ones who still play SW NGE and try and convience others that the game population is still thriving and healthy.
WOW is rot on the brain and if your a deeply entrenched fanboi, no matter what anyone says, they see it as their lord and savor.
Zorndorf, I have read alot of this thread and I must say your points are like looking at medow through a forest of Trees. You have only ever scratched the surface of what a true "Sandbox MMORPG" is, for further description go back to I think page 26 of this post and read my post. You really don't know what your talking about I hate to say it, you either:
a) are just messing around trying to tick people off hence your a troll
b) Really believe this crap that you are posting and don't know any better
c) your a moron that has no idea what he is talking about.
Well to me I think you fall in to the b category, so why don't you sign up for more games then WOW, and see what real MMO's are like. EQ is still around do there free trial, why not try Asheron's Call out, even Second Life and EVE. Don't put in 2 hours on each, finish the trials and play them as much as you played WOW. If by the end of that you still don't understand then I guess you can stick to your Linear based MMO's.
For the rest of us we have played most of these games and fully understand the evolution of MMO's today and if you start saying AOC or WOW are the pinicale of MMO's then I feel very sad for the imagination of todays youths. I was only in final Beta for AOC and I can say that game was definatly not a "Sandbox", I played WOW from Beta for about a year and I know that game is not a "Sandbox". You are right on one thing though, every MMO out has "Sandbox" elements in it in some way shape or form, except for 1.
That is right there is only 1 true full blown "Sandbox MMORPG" out there right now, and its name is Second Life. Unfortunatly I don't qualify it as a game at all though because there is nothing to strive for at all, and that is why I don't play it. Entertainment factor of a game means that there has to be something to strive for a goal at some point. That is the first step back into a Linear MMO, and that step is shown in EVE. Eve is the closest thing to a True "Sandbox MMORPG" that we have out on the market, the only problem as I have stated in a previous thread is the skill system, it is a linear based learning curve, this moves it away from a "Sandbox MMORPG".
Now I have gone through this all before so I will address a different part of this post, your statement, "Look at Conan TODAY on these forums: they finally found out now that in allowing 100 people to ONE zone made the game not even playable. Immens FPS drops of course due to the laughable data manipulations needed to annimate the thing in the "sandboxes of siege sytems"." Many MANY games have allowed more then 100 people into one zone for an event or PvP battle, Funcom has even had this issue before, anyone remember the Open Beta for Anarchy Online? The point I am making is back in the day with Asheron's Call I can remember 200 or more easy people all battling it out on the PvP server right at the newb login areas. I mean it was mass chaos. Back then that game was not state of the art but it pushed your machine, and they were able to do it no problem, so why haven't companies like Funcom learned from others on how to do things like no instancing properly?
Anyways another issue your doing is comparing WOW to "Sandbox" by saying "At end game" Whoa right there, we are not talking End game to begin with. We are talking the game as a whole, not just one portion of the game. Besides even WOW's End game is not a "Sandbox" you are still pigoen holed into a class, and 1 of 3 talent trees or a mixture. Not to mention some people won't even allow you into there Raids if your not a specific talent spec. Your progression at End game is to find better gear that is it, and the fact that there is an "end game" is another issue with WOW not being a Sandbox. Let me ask you this, can you be effective logging in for the first time and getting invited into an Onyxia Raid? No you can't it just disqualified itself as a "Sandbox MMORPG" right there, but 1 or 2 elements of "Sandbox" are there. You can pick a direction and start running right from login, will you get far probably not but it is your choice to do that. Do you have to quest at all in the game, no you don't that is your choice. That is where the "Sandbox" Title ends with WOW, the rest of the game is a Linear Spoon Feed Game no different then the RPG's of old like "Pools of Radiance" The only difference is there is a chat engine to converse with others.
Zorndorf, I have read alot of this thread and I must say your points are like looking at medow through a forest of Trees. You have only ever scratched the surface of what a true "Sandbox MMORPG" is, for further description go back to I think page 26 of this post and read my post. You really don't know what your talking about I hate to say it, you either:
a) are just messing around trying to tick people off hence your a troll
b) Really believe this crap that you are posting and don't know any better
c) your a moron that has no idea what he is talking about.
Well to me I think you fall in to the b category, so why don't you sign up for more games then WOW, and see what real MMO's are like. EQ is still around do there free trial, why not try Asheron's Call out, even Second Life and EVE. Don't put in 2 hours on each, finish the trials and play them as much as you played WOW. If by the end of that you still don't understand then I guess you can stick to your Linear based MMO's.
For the rest of us we have played most of these games and fully understand the evolution of MMO's today and if you start saying AOC or WOW are the pinicale of MMO's then I feel very sad for the imagination of todays youths. I was only in final Beta for AOC and I can say that game was definatly not a "Sandbox", I played WOW from Beta for about a year and I know that game is not a "Sandbox". You are right on one thing though, every MMO out has "Sandbox" elements in it in some way shape or form, except for 1.
That is right there is only 1 true full blown "Sandbox MMORPG" out there right now, and its name is Second Life. Unfortunatly I don't qualify it as a game at all though because there is nothing to strive for at all, and that is why I don't play it. Entertainment factor of a game means that there has to be something to strive for a goal at some point. That is the first step back into a Linear MMO, and that step is shown in EVE. Eve is the closest thing to a True "Sandbox MMORPG" that we have out on the market, the only problem as I have stated in a previous thread is the skill system, it is a linear based learning curve, this moves it away from a "Sandbox MMORPG".
Now I have gone through this all before so I will address a different part of this post, your statement, "Look at Conan TODAY on these forums: they finally found out now that in allowing 100 people to ONE zone made the game not even playable. Immens FPS drops of course due to the laughable data manipulations needed to annimate the thing in the "sandboxes of siege sytems"." Many MANY games have allowed more then 100 people into one zone for an event or PvP battle, Funcom has even had this issue before, anyone remember the Open Beta for Anarchy Online? The point I am making is back in the day with Asheron's Call I can remember 200 or more easy people all battling it out on the PvP server right at the newb login areas. I mean it was mass chaos. Back then that game was not state of the art but it pushed your machine, and they were able to do it no problem, so why haven't companies like Funcom learned from others on how to do things like no instancing properly?
Anyways another issue your doing is comparing WOW to "Sandbox" by saying "At end game" Whoa right there, we are not talking End game to begin with. We are talking the game as a whole, not just one portion of the game. Besides even WOW's End game is not a "Sandbox" you are still pigoen holed into a class, and 1 of 3 talent trees or a mixture. Not to mention some people won't even allow you into there Raids if your not a specific talent spec. Your progression at End game is to find better gear that is it, and the fact that there is an "end game" is another issue with WOW not being a Sandbox. Let me ask you this, can you be effective logging in for the first time and getting invited into an Onyxia Raid? No you can't it just disqualified itself as a "Sandbox MMORPG" right there, but 1 or 2 elements of "Sandbox" are there. You can pick a direction and start running right from login, will you get far probably not but it is your choice to do that. Do you have to quest at all in the game, no you don't that is your choice. That is where the "Sandbox" Title ends with WOW, the rest of the game is a Linear Spoon Feed Game no different then the RPG's of old like "Pools of Radiance" The only difference is there is a chat engine to converse with others.
But he can make helicopters and sell them on the auction house. What do you mean, that's not sandbox? LOL!
All right. This is gonna be a lengthy post. I promised myself to write this down in case this thread was still going strong after I got up today, so here goes.
A comparison between the Sandbox-elements in one of the games considered very close to Sandbox-ideal and the supposed Sandbox-elements Mr. Zorndorf likes to bring up in his post:
The story begins with EVE Online. Once upon a time, two Alliances were in a Major conflict against each other. They had for a time managed to leave each other alone, but the politics and the rapid expansion of one of those Alliances, plus a sense of "idealism" of the other Alliance made them eventuall clash in battle. They fought and fought for control of systems, to drive their enemies out of newly acquired space. We shall call the Alliances Northern Alliance and Southern Alliance in the remainder of this story.
Now, once upon a time in World of Warcraft. Two factions that have been at War for a long time have entered an uneasy truce due to a common threat that was only recently ended. The Burning Legion is however still a very present threat, evidence of which can be seen in the Shattered Lands. The Truce then, remains, but skirmishes continue to break out. Horde and Alliance fight for control of Valleys, Gulches and Basins. However no matter how often the armies of the two factions clash, they can never manage to actually take one of the supposedly critical places over which they continually fight.
Back in EVE, the war between the two Alliances is reaching an all time high. battles are fought almost on a day to day basis, ranging from small skirmishes with 5 ships on each side to invasion fleets numbering in the 300eds trying to lay waste to the Stations and Structures of each other. Battles remain inconclusive howver. For each won, another is lost. For each push of the Northern Alliance, the Southern counters. The Diplomats of both Alliances are working overtime, trying to gain allies in their fight. Eventually, more an more smaller Alliances join the Norther Alliance. A slight shift of power and thus, a slightly favorable shift in victories can be noticed. The NA manages some decisive victories, driving the SA from a few key systems and now staging attacks into the -home- systems of the SA.
Back in WoW. As countless undecisive battles are fought, other options open up and more importantly, other developments in the course of the World. The Sunwell is to be cleansed. The heroes of the World set out to do it and, in a huge, joint effort, over time, they manage it. Their enemy never stood a chance. The heroes kept coming and coming until at long last, the Sunwell was cleansed, the mission accomplished. The two sides congratulated each other, patted each other on the back...and then went back to fight the battles that could, for the life of them, not be decided.
In EVE, the SA has secretly been preparing to build and launch another Titan, the hugest ships to ever prowl the SPace-lanes. Gargantuan in size, they are a huge effort to build and only a handful of Alliances have the capability to do so. For it to succeed, you need a powerful -INDUSTRIAL- backbone in the Alliance. Hundreds of player-built stations, havesting materials and refining them into materials with which still other characters can start producing the parts. And not just of the ship, a Spacedock for these kinds of ships must first be built and -then- you could think about actually building such a monster. Billions and billions of currency flowed into the construction of it, an effort only made possible by the co-operation of hundreds and hundreds of players. The Production had been started in secret, but, close to the actual finishing of the project, spies from the NA managed to find out details about said project. Needless to say, the Northern Alliance was not pleased with this development.
In WoW, one of the most seasoned crafters in the World decides to craft -the- ultimate Weapon, hoping that by doing this, he might stand a better chance at fighting in the ever indecisive battle. He is not secretive about it. He starts gathering the materials, flying through the Shattered Lands on his trusted Epic Mount, locating spots of minerals and enemies whom he knows have the ingredients he needs. By himself he gathers the first parts of the weapon. Eventually, he realizes that for some of the ingredients, he must venture into the deeper, darker places of the world, so he asks in his Guild of trusted people. Sure, they take him along. He spends some of his DKP on the next Black Temple runs to gain the Essences he needs. The materials are complete, the crafting can begin....and is done. With the newly crafted weapon in hand, the Master Smith and Famed Warrior returns to the battles...not to make a difference.
The Northern Alliance sets plans into motion, quickly made plans to assemble one of the largest fleets yet, two Fleets actually, one comprised of smaller ships, the other of the larger Capital Ships to assault the Space-Dock in which the Titan is -known- to be built. Fleet move to rendezvous with each other and slowly, the juggernaut sets itself into motion, aiming for a strike into the heart of the SA. Noteably, the NA can only even manage such a strike because they already have -one- of the gigantic Titan ships, capable of launching fleets through self-generated Jump-Portals. The addition of -another- Titan to the enemies Forces it to be prevented at all costs! And then, the attack commences. Having recently secured the additional help from a Mercenary Alliance, the Southern Alliance awaits the Northern Alliance in the System of the attack. The Northern Alliance is hellbent on destroying the Spaceyard, that is the only goal. All costs are acceptable if this one thing is achieved. The Dreadnoughts, Motherships and Carriers unload their deadly potential while the defenders assembled fleet begins to strike back. A huge battle (and lagfest XD) ensues. The Southern Alliance kills capital ship after capital ship while the Northern Alliance continues to fire upon the Space-dock.
In the end, the Northern Alliance -wins- the day. They manage to destroy the Spacedock, albeit at huge losses of ships, the worth of which numbers in the billions alone. And only a few hours later, the Southern Alliance announces that the whole thing had been a setup. That the Station the Northerners attacked had not been harboring a Titan, that they had purposefully planted this information to weaken the Northern Alliances Capital Fleet considerably. That they had done. With so many losses and no ability to replace them -that- quickly, plus the loss of morale due to the setup, the Northern Alliance is pushed out of SA space and pushed back. Together with the Mercenary Alliance, the Southern Alliance takes System after system from the invaders. The Northern Alliance eventually breaks apart, disbands, scatters and the territories are divided among the victorious.
In WoW, the battles between the two major Factions have still not changed the balance of power at all. Rumors have it that there will soon be a new area to be skirmished over. Not just with Swords and magic, but with Sieging Weapons. The warriors of both sides prepare themselves, while waiting for the next possibility to "change" the world in a group effort.
----------------
So...there you have it. The events in EVE Online are described from my personal experience (they may be somewhat biased and some information may be seen differently by others, such as the NA attack on the Shipyard, but I think the point gets across). I have -personally- witnessed this huge shifts in Power in the EVE Universe. An Alliance of thousands of players being driven back and eventually shattered by the concentrated efforts of another group in the game, which thereby gained more territory and a lot more hatred from other Alliances. XD
WoW is not any special example. It is what you do in the game. I know it. I've played it, complete with the Burning Crusade AddOn. I may not have raided, but I have several friends who do.
Now I know some people are a lost cause, but I hope this helps to illustrate a little bit why some people -might- consider EVE a much more -sandboxy- game and WoW not sandbox at all.
Cheers!
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Okay, Logic? This is the challenge I mentioned earlier. Go back to durnholde in caverns of time, and Kill Thrall, Prevent the horde from being under his leadership
This was a good read that's why I have been playing EVE for the length of time I have.
EVE=Sandbox
with walking avatars soon coming and much more upcoming EVE has tons of longevity which is very important to anyone putting time into the game.
Upcoming sandbox MMO I have my eyes on:
Earthrise, and Fallen Earth. 2 Post apocylapse classless skill based sandbox mmos. Lets hope atleast 1 delivers the goods.
Also waiting to see what Bioware and Lucas Arts have cooking up.
SHOHADAKU
The Mortal Online guys are blogging here as well. I just read their blog on their attributes system (here on this site) and it blew my socks off
I am preordering WAR because it should be good but I cant wait for a great sandbox too. I want lots of options and games to play. right now all I have is EVE. I love it. But I'm a rolling stone I need more to get my fix
cant you WOW whores leave anything alone!
this is a sandbox thread!
if you have levels and a trail you have to walk down that funnels you and 9 million other poor slobs to the next mindless objective to your next mindless level ...then your not in a sandbox.
since wow came out i have been in several other games looking for my sandbox/swg fix and the general chat is spammed tight with wow whores going on and on about the glory of ....whatever
why do i have to read all this wow crap while looking at a thread im actually intrested in finding good info on!
good chance this will get deleted cause it sounds angry or whatever . but really ...get something other to do with your time then flood off topic in every place . you suck. go ask a pez dispencer for a life! WOOT! :P
Is it hard to understand that WOW is not a SANDBOX MMORPG.
Do u even know what sandbox means? So WOTLK has keeps, will it affect the world ? No ! constructable fotresses does not make it sandbox. WOW has no economy, please play EVE if you want a player economy , everything is player crafted and in WOW, everything is done by npc's and not by players .
Crafting? Oh god, ever played SWG pre cu.
A sandbox mmorpg , you can affect the world. WOW is linear , you must be a combatent , you cannot just 100% craft and do nothing else, there are levels, classes, you craft in steps, everything is automatic , there is no , hey i control azeroth with the alliance, or hey the economy has changed and prices dropped very quickly. There is no world pvp, what are people fighting for? Gear? oh please!
WOW is not a sandbox game , WOW june 2008 has limited choices, in the end , WOW is all about raiding. Can i progress by only doing crafting? No ! Can i progress by doing from level 1 pvp? No!
The list goes on.
You haven't played a sandbox mmo and probably not even a mmo before WOW.
....
Interesting, that's the same argument I always make to about the ability to be a "pure" crafter. Not trying to bring up a debate again but just got a chance to rewind back a few pages
Trying to have an argument with some people is like trying to have an argument with a stone wall. There is no point in this thread other to say that either:
In the end it doesn't really matter, since MMO companies make games for their perceived client crowd. And since these boards represent only a minority of users around the globe, it's really hard to tell where this gender is headed. So, we're only left with or meager attempts to over-analyse things and trying to put an idea to the test of argument. Some people however refuse to open themselves to the possibility that other points of view on the same argument can be equally valid.
So why argue with them? Blocking here works wonders for my piece of mind. Just wished I could disable quoting.
i will give you a 100% perfect example of a "true" sandbox game. whether it will come out or anything related to that is questionable, but the perfect example of a true sandbox game is one called darkfall. it has every statement that others have posted about sandbox games except "in my opinion" the false, misguided, or stupid ones. and yeah, WoW is not anywhere NEAR sandbox, but they do make an attempt (meaning they have some sandbox features), a sad attempt none-the-less, but an attempt. darkfall is THE best example of a sandbox game, read the majority of the features it has, i'm sure ALL non-stupid people here will agree that it IS a sandbox game. thanks for your time.
Very impressive. Someone put up his first post to offer a solution to WoW, and his solution is an utopia affair. Darkfall has not yet been produced, its only promised. If I can trade a promise for a business like WoW, I am better than the best magician on earth. I will promise you the moon, if you give me your monthly salary. What? you want the sun as well? Sure I can offer you a blank sheet and let you write anything you wanted. All promised. Just add a cheeseburger to your side of the deal.
The sandbox argument is getting old. A game is good not because it is a sandbox alone. A game is good if it has features that captures the imagination of gamers. SWG was once good. not just b/c its a sandbox, its a game that is designed in which everyone matters. Its a game that give the SW feel. DAoC os good as it offers a RVR form of contest, for the WoW lover, WoW is good b/c it delivers on the fantasy of WC world, ...
Just building a sandbox for the sake of sandboxing, with no good features, will only give that sandbox game. Its no more than that, and business has already proven that its not yet a viable business solution. Not enough player base to make it a big business. Sandbox alone will not pull that many sub to keep a large MMO floating, we need more features.
Keep chanting or arguing if sandbox is all you care for irrespective of game quality or content. Petition to the whitehouse, post here or pull up a banner outside your house. That won't solve the problem. Do come up with a game (design and total package) which fits your defintion of a sandbox and packed with enough (does not need to be many) features that captures the hearts of enough PAYING customers. That is a start. Till then, all talks no muscle.
In the meantime, if you really want Sandbox, sub to any major game with a big world, and ignore all the content. Do what you want, within the limits of the game. No game is totally without limits. Can you walk on the planet in Eve? No. Can you flying a flying mount in UO? No. All games are built with limits. Even a supposing Sandbox.
Very well said.
Look like this thread is very entertaining, but...hmm...27 pages, exam coming next week...
Anyway, should it be sandbox or not, I do see that many people don't want a linear gameplay or scheduled working hours, which most of them are older MMORPG gamers, I do hope that after WoW brings lots lots of new players into the MMORPG world, there will be another MMORPG which can achieve a great amount of players(no matter how good a MMORPG is, if for some reason there are not much players around, it won't be fun) and is a more freestyle game with good features, for us, as well as for those new players ,which will become old players.
MMO played (paid):
AION
DragonRaja
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Lineage
Lineage 2
Tibia
Ultima Online
Warhammer Online
World of Warcraft
MMO tried:
Atlantica Online
Darkfall
Dead Frontier
Dungeon Runners
EverQuest
Lord of the Rings Online
Monster Hunter Frontier Online
Ragnarok Online
Requiem
Runes of Magic
Runescape
The 4th Coming
and some other Chinese/Korean or beta MMOs
runescape had almost 1000 VS 1000, @ world wars or fan site war.
I've been playing for 4 year but now is no longer a sandbox, totaly ruined by jagex.
I don't care if it's a sandbox or linear: I WANT TO BE ONLY A TRADER/FARMER on a PvE server. That's it. No lumping 20 zillion raws in a middle of level 100 monsters that a crafter could never fight off. I want to grow my own mats, sell them. Maybe make some clothes. But just want to be a crafter without the silly limitations for wanting to be one.
It's soooooo simple. And I KNOW I'm not the only gamer who just wants to do something different than killing rats and bunnies for 100 levels, for Christ sake!
Can we just have a pure crafting class. Make it challenging but not boring (like the EQII crafting UI, most boring mini-game in existence). Don't care if I have to make rivets to make something, but at least it's a full time occupation, instead of a sidebar thing to do between fighting. Crafting gets zero respect in gaming now, as anyone can do it on the side. The result is too much goods, too little profit, and no professionalism.
And yes, mastercrafted goods should be superior to drops. What purpose is it to level as a tradesman when drops are more important/powerful???? Drops don't need to be gear, drops can be title; a castle (take a cue from Oblivion's extensions); or something that can't be made.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.