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Understanding Atheism
Jimmy_Scythe
Member CommonPosts: 3,586
So I found myself in a discussion about religion the other day. For the record, I don't run around announcing to the world that I'm an atheist or insulting religious people at every opportunity. Yet, if someone asks me point blank about my religious leanings then I reply plainly and honestly. It's usually at this point that the bullshit occurs.
Once a religious person finds out that I'm an atheist they usually proceed to try and call me out on my "beliefs." I use scare quotes because atheism is the lack of belief altogether. I don't believe. I've tried to believe. At one time I really, really wanted to believe. But I don't believe.
This fundamental misunderstanding is what brings me to this topic. Theists always want non-believers to answer for their point of view. They demand explanations. The problem with this is that atheists don't have answers in regard to religion. Atheists only have question about religion that have never been adequately answered.
Here's a short list:
Where did God come from? This is a big one. This is a question so simple that most five year olds jump right on it. To clarify, if the universe is so large and complex that it requires an intelligence that is an order of magnitude more complex to design it, who made that intelligence? And who made the maker's, maker's, maker? This question leads to an infinite loop. As far as I'm concerned, this is the knockout punch. Theists go to great lengths to avoid this issue for a reason.
If God loves us so futher mocking much, why does he inflict pain and death on us? Pushing on past the first question, we reach for the all knowing / loving / powerful aspect. It's the Epicurean question. Is God willing and able to prevent evil? Your average theist will answer yes right off the cuff, but then why is there evil. Theists will then counter with man's free will which means that God is indeed unable and therefore not omnipotent. Theists will then revise their answer that God chooses not to interfere with man's free will which means that God is unwilling and therefor malevolent. You can have one or two, but not all three.
Why only one God? Why not a thousand, or even a million? Whenever this issue comes up I'm usually asked to prove that there is no God. But this cuts both ways. Why don't you prove that there are no other Gods than your God...? Exactly!
Why doesn't God heal amputees? God heals tumors, mental illness, blindness, deafness, paralysis, etc., yet no amputee has ever regrown a limb at a faith healers tent. WTF?!
And the questions go on from there. While different people have different reasons for being atheists, many of us simply don't believe because religion provides nothing but unanswered questions. It's that simple.
Comments
I explained this about 30 times throughout 5 years being here. I have an answer for everyone of thos questions. You can search if you wish but I do not wish to get in a long drawn out debate on this again lol.
If you want to discuss this feel free to PM me. I was a priest for years so I can explain this but in PM this time.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
You are asking questions humans have been asking since we first conceived the notion of God(s)
Are you at conflict with religion or the concept of God or the ideal of spirituality? They are and at the same time are not interchangeable.
Most of your questions seem to grounded in religion. Religions are made by humans. Humans have no clue thus they are the least reliable as a source of information.
What does your heart tell you?
I explained this about 30 times throughout 5 years being here. I have an answer for everyone of thos questions. You can search if you wish but I do not wish to get in a long drawn out debate on this again lol.
If you want to discuss this feel free to PM me. I was a priest for years so I can explain this but in PM this time.
You have an answer to every one of those questions, but can't seem to find it possible to give them in this reply.
Well, that's extremely helpful.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Your examples assume one particular form of religion as a basis, and beyond the first question fail to generate any discord to a faith that does not fall into the particular category you challenge.
-Where did God come from: Instead ask where did anything come from. Atheism and Relgion offer different options for the same, unanswerable question.
-If God loves us: According to which faith and what view? If I say my faith says that God is apathetic to the plight of mankind, it destroys the validity of your question.
-Why only one God: Again, if my faith preaches there are many deities, your argument has no bearing.
-Why doesn't God heal amputees: Back to the conception of divinity as a singular loving entity. If I say my God doesn't care, your argument has lost power.
I am an atheist, but I really wouldn't ask any of those questions, all I would really ask is, If a god existed then where is it? I would want physical evidence of a god. Thing is most people's concept of gods make them incorporal, so we really couldn't prove if one existed by definition, making god a claim that can never be backed up by evidence.
Really though I don't care if one existed or not. I wouldn't change my behavior and I would still have my own value system. If it wants to reward or punish me for my actions whatever. I am the sole judge of what is right and wrong for me.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Most of the stories I have read from the bible are of a loving and caring nature. I believe the teachings of Jesus will help fulfill and add peace to your life, should you choose to practice them. i also believe that if I were to say "Joe Schmo wants you to be a loving and caring individual, and if you don't he will be displeased" it wouldn't carry near as much weight as "God wants you to be a loving and caring individual, and if you don't you're going to burn in eternal damnation".
Just my thoughts.
I explained this about 30 times throughout 5 years being here. I have an answer for everyone of thos questions. You can search if you wish but I do not wish to get in a long drawn out debate on this again lol.
If you want to discuss this feel free to PM me. I was a priest for years so I can explain this but in PM this time.
You have an answer to every one of those questions, but can't seem to find it possible to give them in this reply.
Well, that's extremely helpful.
Ive been here since 2003. These questions pop up every 7 weeks. You figure out the math. Hence, why I said Ill answer them in PMs (as I have three times since this thread has been created).
Im just do not feel like debating this subject anymore. Imagine debating global warming every 7 weeks for five years. You don't feel like debating it anymore. But, like I said, Ill pm anyone.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
The OP is obviously seeking the truth. And his questions are valid. I have my own beliefs on what life is about but won't expound on it here.
There are three fundamental questions that any person should ask about life:
1. Where did I come from?
2. Why am I here?
3. Where am I going after death?
You are asking questions humans have been asking since we first conceived the notion of God(s)
Are you at conflict with religion or the concept of God or the ideal of spirituality? They are and at the same time are not interchangeable.
Most of your questions seem to grounded in religion. Religions are made by humans. Humans have no clue thus they are the least reliable as a source of information.
What does your heart tell you?
My heart tells me that WYSIWYG. I've seen enough of death to understand the truth of it. That doesn't mean that there is no God, just no afterlife. The two are not mutually inclusive. But if there is a God, then we get stuck at the first question.
The idea of spirituality is a little harder to dismiss depending on how you define it. If you define spirituality as a person's subjective sense of being or essence, then I don't have a problem with that and can't argue against it. I'm not a total nihilist after all. But if you define spirituality as some objective, metaphysical weight that imbues things with being, then I completely disagree.
I explained this about 30 times throughout 5 years being here. I have an answer for everyone of thos questions. You can search if you wish but I do not wish to get in a long drawn out debate on this again lol.
If you want to discuss this feel free to PM me. I was a priest for years so I can explain this but in PM this time.
You have an answer to every one of those questions, but can't seem to find it possible to give them in this reply.
Well, that's extremely helpful.
Ive been here since 2003. These questions pop up every 7 weeks. You figure out the math. Hence, why I said Ill answer them in PMs (as I have three times since this thread has been created).
Im just do not feel like debating this subject anymore. Imagine debating global warming every 7 weeks for five years. You don't feel like debating it anymore. But, like I said, Ill pm anyone.
Well, why don't you have a macro to solve this problem?
I mean, if they come up every seven weeks, and you're tired of debating it, why did you post anything here?
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
An understanding of quantum physics can show you how anything is possible. And things are infinite.I wonder if computers or future robots ask each other who made them. Oh wait they dont have a consciousness. What makes you think a random process can produce the act of thought? This simply defines our being.
What makes you think God inflicts death and pain? We do that to our selves through our ignorance. That should be obvious.
Its a mathematical and logical concept, if there are universals, there are particulars. That means everything can be shown in -one- being , God.
So God does all this for you and you complain he wont fix one problem due to a biological barrier. Ive heard this argument many times and dismiss it because it doesnt question the validity of a God himself. Its an absurd argument.
Your absolutely right . Religion did nothing for me except narrow my view of the world. But thats because religion today is derived from pagan myth. Its a barbaric view of God and thats why so many people are shut off from it. People are atheists because they think dogmatic religion is the only view of God. When so many great philosophers from the past, so many great scientists say that there is a particular, a God, because what theyve been shown in their life is something no random process could of produced. In my life aswell. Its a simple view of God backed up by all the knowledge on earth. Hard to explain for this reason, but i could give you a million quotes that would broaden your knowledge of what im talking about.
"The highest and most beautiful things in life are not to be heard about, nor read about, nor seen but, if one will, are to be lived." -Soren Kierkegaard
You seem to take everything as a truth and that is your first mistake. Why not take a more logical approach?
We'll take death for example. What happens when you die? You need to understand the process before you can even begin to answer this question. Death is usually accompanied by pain which by now you should know that you want to avoid pain if you wish to live because pain is usually created by failure. Having said that, death occurs when you fail to live - when either you make too many small consecutive mistakes and becoming in extreme pain or it can be one very large mistake.
An example would be if you were on a motorcycle and were in a serious wreck. You will most likely be in extreme pain - if you're still alive. Or say, two animals were fighting over a kill, they will attempt to injury one another to either kill them or until they back off from the meal. The animal that slips up one too many times will most likely be the one that dies (assuming they are both in good health).
Now religious belief tells you when you die you'll go to heaven or hell. However, knowledge tells you that failing to live shows death more as a finality for your mishapes. I see no reason or in anyway able to suggest that "heaven" and "hell" are even in a factor in this entire argument - or if it is even real because it is illogical.
So back to the question, what happens when you die? Again, with a very logical approach, I think what life was like before I was born will be what life is like when I die.
I tried to keep this simple so you can try to understand the idea behind it. You should try to take the most logical approach to the questions you have listed instead of the answers people try to feed you.
I explained this about 30 times throughout 5 years being here. I have an answer for everyone of thos questions. You can search if you wish but I do not wish to get in a long drawn out debate on this again lol.
If you want to discuss this feel free to PM me. I was a priest for years so I can explain this but in PM this time.
You have an answer to every one of those questions, but can't seem to find it possible to give them in this reply.
Well, that's extremely helpful.
Ive been here since 2003. These questions pop up every 7 weeks. You figure out the math. Hence, why I said Ill answer them in PMs (as I have three times since this thread has been created).
Im just do not feel like debating this subject anymore. Imagine debating global warming every 7 weeks for five years. You don't feel like debating it anymore. But, like I said, Ill pm anyone.
You do realize..if your argument was strong or close to flawless (as you seem to want people to believe based on how you worded your comment) you would have simply reposted them without this much hesitation. I don't mean to sound rude or feel pressure to post your answers because I don't care for them personally. I'm just telling you what everyone else is thinking when they read what you post.
All things atheists need to do for this argument is link that video. Pretty much says everything that's on an atheists mind.
I agree with this. My main example being the can he make a door he cant open variety.
I also see many of the answers. I looked into it myself several years ago. My friends dad was a Pastor his entire life. He was VERY respectful of people who didnt beleive in god and I sat down with him for hours... and hours, over the course of 3 days.
In the end I just couldnt bring myself to beleive. I have a very strong respect for the people who do, they have their reasons and from their perspective it does make a lot of sense. I think im just far to skeptical of a person. Usually when I bring that up I get the "in time you'll come to see" junk, but my friends father was happy to have answered all my questions and was frank is respecting my view as I had solid reasons for where I stand, and yea, I have hear the other side and I know what they have to say.
But yea, for me I can answer a few of their questions, but for the most part its questions I ask, that they can only answer "because the bible says so" or "because".
I think there is a rather large misunderstanding when it comes to atheism, I prefer to use the term Agnostic.
a) it better describes how your going about it scythe. Being Agnostic is that if you have an open mind and you could be convinced if sufficient evidence was given.
b)90% of people dont know what it means, so it gives me a chance to explain it before they start going at me.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
I explained this about 30 times throughout 5 years being here. I have an answer for everyone of thos questions. You can search if you wish but I do not wish to get in a long drawn out debate on this again lol.
If you want to discuss this feel free to PM me. I was a priest for years so I can explain this but in PM this time.
You have an answer to every one of those questions, but can't seem to find it possible to give them in this reply.
Well, that's extremely helpful.
Ive been here since 2003. These questions pop up every 7 weeks. You figure out the math. Hence, why I said Ill answer them in PMs (as I have three times since this thread has been created).
Im just do not feel like debating this subject anymore. Imagine debating global warming every 7 weeks for five years. You don't feel like debating it anymore. But, like I said, Ill pm anyone.
There you go using that number 7. I see your subtle innuendo subconscious bomb shell there.
I'm on to you, Enigma.
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You are asking questions humans have been asking since we first conceived the notion of God(s)
Are you at conflict with religion or the concept of God or the ideal of spirituality? They are and at the same time are not interchangeable.
Most of your questions seem to grounded in religion. Religions are made by humans. Humans have no clue thus they are the least reliable as a source of information.
What does your heart tell you?
My heart tells me that WYSIWYG. I've seen enough of death to understand the truth of it. That doesn't mean that there is no God, just no afterlife. The two are not mutually inclusive. But if there is a God, then we get stuck at the first question.
The idea of spirituality is a little harder to dismiss depending on how you define it. If you define spirituality as a person's subjective sense of being or essence, then I don't have a problem with that and can't argue against it. I'm not a total nihilist after all. But if you define spirituality as some objective, metaphysical weight that imbues things with being, then I completely disagree.
I think you and I are kind of the same in this regard.
I have tried to get into religion and belief, but I to find it extremely hard. I just don't think I'm wired for it. I have no problem believing that there is something out there, but to put my faith in a religion is just impossible for me.
When I look at religions I see a bunch of people trying to convince me to follow them because they are certain they are the one and only one. Anyone with an unbiased position would find that a little bit on the obvious side of just human nature. I can't help but see them all as man made institutions.
Like someone else said, I think the best thing to do is follow your heart. Sociologically, there are certain behaviors that work best for us as a whole. You can choose to be a selfish s.o.b., or you can choose to be a person who cares about others. You don't need much religion to understand that.
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If everyone in the world stopped telling everyone else what to do there would be no need for any religion.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
every time i get into this conversation I'm asked to explain evolution... it's not a very difficult concept
except to the feeble-minded sheep who believe darwin is satan and have 3 or 4 jesus bumper stickers on their rusty ass car and a darwin fish getting pissed on by a jesus fish
oh and then they claim darwin was trying to steal god's idea of intelligent design after they're proven wrong and backed into a corner
well my intelligent friend..
why is it that if god can make evil ... why can't he unmake it?
why does he create man in his image but allow him to sin?
then i ask them if it makes too much sense to them
Trump 2016
You are looking at this from a religious perspective.
Who says God can or can not make evil?
Who says God created man?
Who says anything God does has to make sense to us?
Are the things we do as a species required to make sense to ants or any other species?
You are assuming the nature of God is "just like us". One of us but all powerful and nothing else to do but spectate us. This is what religion tells us, right? God is omnipotent, correct? We are a very conceited species to think that the omnipotent forces of the universe have nothing else to do but watch us scurry around with our day to day activites and actually be interested. Maybe they are maybe they are not. Look into the sky tonight (if you can still see it ) see the universe and say "I understand". If you do, come and tell us what the true nature of God and the universe really is.
Would you or me be so presumptuous as to claim that you know the mind of an omnipotent force? Would you claim to understand the mind of God whatever it may be?
You understand the "truth" of death? How so? (WTF is WYSIWYG?)
How do you know there is no afterlife? For thousands of years greater minds then our have asked that question, you have discovered the truth?
How do YOU define spirituality?
The problem with looking at things from a religious context is that you are waiting for someone (who claims to higher understanding) to come and tell you what everything is / isn't.
I am sorry my friend, no one here on this rock can do that because no one here knows. You may be right, you might not be. In the end its how you choose to believe.
You make a lot of bold presumptuous statements here my friend. You may want to take a good look at them and ask yourself "do I really understand". My heart tells me "no".
To say that you understand the "truth of death" is a mighty bold, hasty, obsolute and careless statement. Explain the "truth" to us. Is that what your "heart" believes or is that what your mind has rationalized out so that you can defy religion? I have taken lives and seen friends die but that gives me no insight into the mind or purpose of God or the universe. All it has taught me is that religion is of man and we have betrayed the ideals they have set out before themselves thousands of years ago.
obtw i have no idea if this is on the subject but!
I do not believe that you should believe in how you feel and what your heart desires for spirituallity because why?
give a male for instance..
If you see a bomb shell girl come up to you and want to do a little shibby with you.. wtf do you think? "hell yea, lets get it on" - lust and adultery
see a girl with a nice rack or some nice apple bottom jeans on .. we are gonna look and be like "damn, i wouldnt mind suckin on those, or spankin that.. -- again lust and adultery..
guys masterbate? sure?
to me - that shows what our hearts want.. pleasure, wealthy.. ect..
so why follow it?
also!!
WOMEN ALONE- are living proof that a God does exist.. they are just too perfect for us men..
I MEAN DUDE COME ON!! LOOKIT THAT..... this is all the proof i need right here that a God exists..
what about the most beautiful places on earth?
i mean? you have to give some credit to a higher power right?
[edit: this turns out to be more of a description of anti-theist than atheist, discussed further in the thread]
Jimmy, the fact is that by actively believing in the non-existance of god you are performing an act of faith. You can not prove there is no god (due to the both incomprehensible nature of its definition and you can never prove something isn't) , so it is not neccisarily true therfore so you have faith that there is no god.
However it is the same faith that every monotheistic worshiper has. They are also atheists, you have just gone one god furthur.
www.youtube.com/watch
Also there are plenty of good explanations for why people have faith in god. Being social animals we have a sense of identity. This means that we can model others actions and get along better. We have an evolutionary drive to support our family. We feel a strong link to our family and we become quite upset when they die, we are also fearful of dieing as well. The process of communication allows us to work with abstracts, we can tell stories, quite creative ones in fact. We can tell stories that can ease our fears and the fears of others, we do this all the time. Just look to your memories of your parental comfort as a child and look at parents with their children.
Stories are great and essentially have a great deal of power "the pen is mightier than the sword". So it is through the telling of stories we can improve on our world around us, or indeed hide from the world.
The problem with religion is that the stories are very abstract, unclear, nonsensical, paradoxical and give unreliable and unrepeatable results. religion also closes off investigation (the finding of a better story) whenever the teller wishes by saying "it is gods will" or "god works in mysterious ways", comforting themselves with the belief that "god knows and he loves me, so it must be OK". these comments kill investigation and progress. I am happy to say that "i do not know", however i have the oportunity to find out if i put my mind to it. All a faith in god does is put a comforting blanket over the fear of the unknown, a cowardly retreat from the challenge of investigation.
Faith in atheism holds that the stories of religion are inadequate, that there is opportunity to investigate and find a better description, knowing that through investigation we achieve progress.
For me a good story will have more evidence than just more stories. i am an experimentalist at heart, if i can't interact with it to see how it works then i am less than satisfied. This still gives me plenty of dayly challenge.
Jimmy, the fact is that by actively believing in the non-existance of god you are performing an act of faith. You can not prove there is no god (due to the both incomprehensible nature of its definition and you can never prove something isn't) , so it is not neccisarily true therfore so you have faith that there is no god.
Tricksy world-play there. There's no such thing as "actively believing in the non-existence of blah blah blah". I know this is a difficult concept to get but try to bear with us. Atheism is the LACK of belief. It is NOT an active belief in blah blah blah...by even characterizing it in that way you're making it far more complicated than it really is.
How often do you hear someone say "I don't believe in God" (I hear people say this all the time) vs. "I believe there is no God" (I have never heard anyone say this in all my years of living)
See how ridiculous it is to characterize atheism as a belief when it's actually the exact opposite?
EDIT: On second thought, I'm going to delete the first stuff I wrote and just leave this here because I think it really is the crux of the theist's argument against atheism (which is an odd thing to argue against since it just is, there's not really anything to argue against).
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Life sucks, buy a helmet.