so wait a second , Tasos's real name is Anastasias "Tasos" Flampouras ?? not Tasos flambouras?
Yes, Anastasios Flampouras, obviously Tasos.
You can see their full and correct names on the documents I have linked too, of course I’m presuming they actually used there real full and correct names on these legal documents but decided not to for a more informal impression when promoting and marketing Darkfall.
The change between p and b might be language differences, or a typo.
If you look at the response given to me by the GameWorld editor over at youtube, you'll see he used "Flampouras" as well.
Originally posted by Polarization
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnIv3YnHuVQ Zorvan said Hey Mr. GameWorldGR. Can you tell us if the blatant lies involving Tasos past work experience at the conference were in fact told verbatim from information provided by Tasos, or was the magazine really so ignorant as to "misquote" his entire history, as Tasos would have everyone believe. Tasos says it's all your fault. Is it? Tasos Flampouras told me to fix a single world about his POSITION in Aventurine. Nothing more, nothing less. All other information provided by GameWorld is correct and Tasos agrees with that as we received a second e-mail to confirm these information.
These people and this change in management was probably made because these people themselves or the company's they represented invested in Razorwax, Razorwax was registered as a gambling / bingo / sweepstakes service’s company.
At the same time Claus Hågensen Grøvdal was changed to Executive Director
Wow, Polarization! You finally killed it, man! This is better than a mystery novel!
Most of us old former followers of this game just moved the f--- on years ago, figuring the game would eventually fade into oblivion and nobody would ever find out what the f--- was going on with it. It was enough to know that it was vaporware built upon a massive pile of lies.
But you finally took it to a whole new level, man, this is amazing stuff. You should be a private eye. I'm serious. You obviously have a great nose for ferreting stuff out, are stubborn as hell, and an analytical nature.
People think it doesn't matter, but look at all these fanbois even on this board, who have wasted so much time and energy on this barrel of lies. They are the suckers, and the ones who aren't completely retarded deserve a bit of justice to have the liar's game exposed. So in my eyes you have done more than a few good deeds here.
The one sad thing is once the fan boys disappear this board won't be good for any more laughs. Oh well.
I've a suspicion of what user you were from the official forums. And I'm sure if I were you I could find out for sure whether I'm right or not. But I'm not, and it doesn't really matter, anyways... just keep up the great work man! This is one of the most awesome threads I have ever read on a forum. And I've read hundreds of thousands of em.
Wow, Polarization! You finally killed it, man! This is better than a mystery novel! I think its a bit premature to declare it dead yet, but its certainly laying impotent on the ground whimpering and twitching under a tirade of kicks and punch’s.
Most of us old former followers of this game just moved the f--- on years ago, figuring the game would eventually fade into oblivion and nobody would ever find out what the f--- was going on with it. It was enough to know that it was vaporware built upon a massive pile of lies. I did the same after the 2nd canceled beta in 2005, but I got drawn back in last year after that ridiculous Article about Asp’s visit, and I finally wanted to see it end or at least help it alone the way.
But you finally took it to a whole new level, man, this is amazing stuff. You should be a private eye. I'm serious. You obviously have a great nose for ferreting stuff out, are stubborn as hell, and an analytical nature. Well If anyone’s reading this who can offer me a job then their welcome to send me an email, its all surprisingly easy to find, what takes the time is analyzing it to see what’s relevant and making posts about it, and then defending myself when I get personally attacked and insulted for doing so. People think it doesn't matter, but look at all these fanbois even on this board, who have wasted so much time and energy on this barrel of lies. They are the suckers, and the ones who aren't completely retarded deserve a bit of justice to have the liar's game exposed. So in my eyes you have done more than a few good deeds here. I don’t think there will be a final or substantial irrefutable disclosure till the developers release the game or cancel it or just stop communicating for an extended period of time, but hopefully this information will give a strong indication of what we can expect from Darkfall if it ever is released.
The one sad thing is once the fan boys disappear this board won't be good for any more laughs. Oh well. There have ways been MMO developers making promises they cant keep and supporters believing those lies, and I don’t think this will stop anytime soon, unless we as a community of consumers stop accepting it as common industry practice, but its human nature and ignorance that makes it possible, so its’ probably never going to change.
I've a suspicion of what user you were from the official forums. And I'm sure if I were you I could find out for sure whether I'm right or not. But I'm not, and it doesn't really matter, anyways... just keep up the great work man! This is one of the most awesome threads I have ever read on a forum. And I've read hundreds of thousands of em. As I said I stopped posting on the official forums in 2005, I cant even remember my username or password, I was a constructive and positive member I did not make critical or negative posts, I just simply left after the 2nd beta failed to start.
Haha, I was a constructive and positive member..... except when the devs were lying to everyone. Which turned out pretty quickly to be most of the time....
For some reason back in 2001, 2002, 2003 the "Darkfall" idea really seemed possible. And now for some reason it doesn't. Kind of sad when you think about it. I believe there is still a tremendous unrealized potential in the MMORPG genre, and projects like "Darkfall" really hurt that potential a lot. They close up people's minds so they forget what is possible. Not only I think among gamers, but surely among developers too. Projects like Darkfall give a taint to the ideas behind the game, the ideas that generated such great hype in the first place. As if they are only pie in the sky.
Some of the technical things might be pie in the sky, but the concept of an MMORPG with profound player freedom of action, intelligence and skill in the gameplay, and no mindless grind... is very much possible, and I still believe would be quite popular if executed well.
EDIT: I still can't get over how they changed stuff on their linked-in profiles based on this page. Wow! Talk about putting the feet to the fire. Who could have known how keenly that pen prick on a random Internet message board would be felt, heh.
6 months later Benjamin Cabarrubias Bye who was Razorwax’s executive director at its founding appears to no longer involved in the company.
Enterprises 02.08.2001
CHANGE OF MANAGEMENT BOARD
Board:
The chairman of the board: Trond Erik Heier, Erling Skjalgsson
Director: Claus Hågensen Grøvdal
Leif Tore Sætermoen
Simon Yuen
later that month Razorwax publicly announce they have been developing a MMORPG called Darkfall since 2000, despite Razorwax being registered as a company offering bingo/gambling/sweepstakes services.
In Nov/Dec 2002 Razorwax makes and announcement they claim they have "found" and “signed” a “publishing deal” for Darkfall with a Greek publisher (Aventurine), and "merged" Razorwax with Aventurine in Greece to continue development. http://www.anvilsociety.com/wax/news2.htm http://www.warcry.com/news/view/2503 4 months later Razorwax's Board changes again. Enterprises 06.02.2003
CHANGE OF MANAGEMENT BOARD
Board:
The chairman of the board: Jade El Mehdawi, Himras 12 Kifissia GR-14562 Athens, Greece
Director: Anastasios Flampouras AKA "Tasos"
Spiridon Iordanis
Claus Hågensen Grøvdal
Ricki Michael Sickenger
All the original investors in Razorwax apart from the Darkfall "developers" are no longer involved with the company presumably after the announcement it was developing Darkfall andits failure to be successfull in bingo/sweepstakes services, and was going to “merge“ with Aventurine in Greece.
And now Jade El Mehdawi, Tasos and Spiridon Iordanis are on the board of Razorwax and its owners, as well as Claus and Ricki, the very same people as well as other's like Henning Ludvigson who are also owners / partners / investors in Aventurine.
Aventurine was simply created by the original developers from Razorwax along with new investor/owners who are all the developers and producers of Darkfall, after the initial investment from the other previous board members of Razowax ran out.
Haha, I was a constructive and positive member..... except when the devs were lying to everyone. Which turned out pretty quickly to be most of the time....
For some reason back in 2001, 2002, 2003 the "Darkfall" idea really seemed possible. And now for some reason it doesn't. Kind of sad when you think about it. I believe there is still a tremendous unrealized potential in the MMORPG genre, and projects like "Darkfall" really hurt that potential a lot. They close up people's minds so they forget what is possible. Not only I think among gamers, but surely among developers too. Projects like Darkfall give a taint to the ideas behind the game, the ideas that generated such great hype in the first place. As if they are only pie in the sky.
Some of the technical things might be pie in the sky, but the concept of an MMORPG with profound player freedom of action, intelligence and skill in the gameplay, and no mindless grind... is very much possible, and I still believe would be quite popular if executed well.
EDIT: I still can't get over how they changed stuff on their linked-in profiles based on this page. Wow! Talk about putting the feet to the fire. Who could have known how keenly that pen prick on a random Internet message board would be felt, heh.
Just because I made constructive and positive posts did not mean I didn’t always have misgivings about the project, or that I was not skeptical, I was just willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for the first 4 or 5 years.
I still remember when I first read the first announcement about the game in 2001, I read the interview and thought that sounds great, but it sounds to good to be true, ill believe it when I see it.
And then when I clicked on the few screen shots in the article I thought, ok, looks like there’s still a lot of work to go, and 8 years later it still looks like there’s a lot of work to go to me.
I agree with you about the potential of a game like Darkfall and its concepts and that’s the only reason why I’ve ever dedicated anytime to it, I don’t really care about any other type’s of MMO’s so I just don’t get involved with them, apart from playing them, normally for a very limited amount of time.
I don’t know what the effects if any Darkfall failure will have, plenty of PvP sand box type games like Darkfall proposes to be have released and failed before or never managed to release, so I think there will still remain a community of people who will still wait for the next one, whatever or whenever that may come.
These are some of the people who are listed on the board of Razorwax who invested in it, that we actually know the amount of money they lost when Razorwax “moved” to Greece, after they where convinced to invest in it.
Simon Yuen, owns in Norway Kingclaw AS,Royal Supreme Sea Food AS, Intermeal Gruppen AS and also Intermedia Invest.
Trond Erik Heier was a manager at Intermedia Invest at the time.
Yuen and Trond Heier were “convinced” to invest 500-550k dollars in Darkfall by a “thick” and “enthusiastic” presentation that convinced them, “these boys are so good and convincing that we chose to bet on them” Yuen thought he would receive 20% from the company, and thought “even a small success for Darkfall could mean major income.”
Intermedia invest also hired Leif Tore Sætermoen, another board member to “bring structure to the project” and also provided equipment and mediocre pay.
Trond Heier said “Now we have given them time until new Years and after that we may see something from them that is interesting for other investors.”
And that is exactly the reason why Razorwax “found”/ created a new publisher Aventurine and decided to “move” to Greece, their major investor expected results by the end of 2002, but after spending Yuen’s 500-550k $’s for 2 years and having nothing substantial to show for it, they simply started a new company called Aventurine and “moved” development of Darkfall to Greece.
I would like to know how much money Benjamin Cabarrubias Bye the founding executive director of Razorwax, and Erling Skjalgsson one of its Chairman possibly invested and also might of lost when Razorwax “moved” development to Aventurine.
And why did Razorwax continue as a company until it was declared bankrupt in 2006 after we were told it “merged” with Aventurine, and why did Jade El Mehdawi, Tasos and Spiridon Iordanis become members and chairman of the board of Razorwax after Aventurine was created by them and the developers from Razorwax in 2003.
And why did the Auditor of Razorwax note illegal loans to shareholder, the general manager, board member or other twice after this, and other auditing irregularities, did they continue attempting to make Razorwax a success in bingo/sweepstakes gambling services until it went bankrupt or was it for other reasons.
For some reason back in 2001, 2002, 2003 the "Darkfall" idea really seemed possible. And now for some reason it doesn't. Kind of sad when you think about it. I believe there is still a tremendous unrealized potential in the MMORPG genre, and projects like "Darkfall" really hurt that potential a lot.
I don't think it'll hurt interest in this type of game. All of us, down to the utmost total hater, began watching Darkfall because of the features it offered. This game could work and could make millions for a competent and honest developer. Unfortunately, Darkfall will not be that game, as we all know it's developer is neither of those things.
What most need to realize, especially the diehard "fanbois", is that the success of this type of game in the market depends on the scammer asshat "developers" being exposed and removed from the scene, so real developers who see the interest in the game can come in and make it.
For every scammer/fraud developer we as gamers remove, that's just an improvement on the company which ends up taking this type of game serious. Like in any other product environment, you weed out the snake oil salesmen to let the real guys shine.
There will be a game like Darkfall, of this I have no doubt. But it will not be by Razorwax/Aventurine/whatever name they choose next.
Very interesting info, and great work Polar. Hey, if you have some free time, I think maybe your skills could be used to look deeper into EA/Mythic and WAR.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't think it'll hurt interest in this type of game.
Not in playing it, surely, but it will hurt interest to invest in this type of game. While as a dev you might be very enthusiastic about a concept, it's hard to sell it to an investor only interested in the bottom line if all of its previous examples have been failures, and the more examples the harder it is to argue that there isn't any correlation between the base concept and all its past failures.
I don't think it'll hurt interest in this type of game.
Not in playing it, surely, but it will hurt interest to invest in this type of game. While as a dev you might be very enthusiastic about a concept, it's hard to sell it to an investor only interested in the bottom line if all of its previous examples have been failures, and the more examples the harder it is to argue that there isn't any correlation between the base concept and all its past failures.
But you have to consider who Tasos/Aventurine targeted for investing. Small, no-name companies and single individuals. Companies and people who probably didn't have the knowledge of gaming and what a developer should be bringing to the table when asking for investments. People who could be easily blinded by "big returns".
This is why they didn't go to SOE, Mythic, Codemasters, etc.,etc. and get funded. Not because the game idea was bad, but because those companies know what to look for and would have smelled the burn a 100 miles away.
Edit: Doesn't this make alot more sense now? Instead of "We turned all the big boys down"?
And why do you think not one of these "big boys" ever admitted that Aventurine approached them? Because Aventurine didn't.
This is exactly what Colton Burgess did with Thrones of Chaos ( Mourning ). Found no-name individual investors while he hawked screenshots and a "tech demo" of the game before running with the money.
Er, I was talking about legitimate enterprises. Of course it wouldn't deter potential scammers from getting money from ignorant investors, if anything it would encourage them.
Er, I was talking about legitimate enterprises. Of course it wouldn't deter potential scammers from getting money from ignorant investors, if anything it would encourage them.
Which was my point above. A real developer with the same game idea, but with nothing to hide, could and would be able to approach those big boys even after this fiasco and have a very good chance of getting the funding and support needed to make the game.
Er, I was talking about legitimate enterprises. Of course it wouldn't deter potential scammers from getting money from ignorant investors, if anything it would encourage them.
Which was my point above. A real developer with the same game idea, but with nothing to hide, could and would be able to approach those big boys even after this fiasco and have a very good chance of getting the funding and support needed to make the game.
I disagree. It goes against market trends and has a poor track record to boot. Another failure would just worsen the record regardless of where funding for that came. Were it so easy and in so much demand we would've seen an attempt by far more known and experienced devs already.
But you have to consider who Tasos/Aventurine targeted for investing. Small, no-name companies and single individuals. Companies and people who probably didn't have the knowledge of gaming and what a developer should be bringing to the table when asking for investments. People who could be easily blinded by "big returns". This is why they didn't go to SOE, Mythic, Codemasters, etc.,etc. and get funded. Not because the game idea was bad, but because those companies know what to look for and would have smelled the burn a 100 miles away.
And I think the same thing happened to the other people that seem to of been involved with Razorwax before it “merged” with and created Aventurine after failing to show their investors anything after 2 years.
Whether or not they where selling their concept for a game they think could be a worldwide success in a few years, or online sweepstake/ bingo/ gambling services.
And the same thing happened to Jade El Mehdawi, when he was convinced to invest 50% ownership in Razorwax, and presumably a similar amount in Aventurine by the “boys” with some help presumably from Tasos.
And the same thing happened when Henning Ludvigson or any of the other developer / owners were convinced to invest and get involved with Aventurine when it was created.
I agree that the only investment they have ever managed to get is from small companies and single individuals who don’t have any experience or knowledge of the industry, but I don’t believe apart from Simon Yuen and Jade El Mehdawi that they have ever been successful enough to attract the sort of investment necessary for a project of this magnitude.
Which explains why the company and Darkfall is almost entirely self owned and self financed by the developers and producers themselves, and why thy have demonstrated so little progress after so many years, and why they are involved with all these other activity’s other then actually developing the game.
This is exactly what happened to Trond Hier, and Simon Yuen’s half a million dollars.
The last group to have joined his list of projects were the four game developers that banded together under the name of Razorwax. This summer they to Yuen with a thick presentation of their idea for a game - a game they think could be a worldwide success in a few years.
"It was the enthusiasm that convinced us", says Trond Heier. "We do admit that we know very little about this kind of business, but these boys are so good and convincing that we chose to bet on them. They have a huge competence, much stamina and are willing to recieve a lower salary than other places", says Heier.
Yuens gut feeling: Despite the fact that Intermedia Invenst already has six demanding groups in the briefcase, they squeezed Razorwax in this summer. "I didn't really want to, becuase we have a small capacity, but Yuen convinced me." Heier smiles broadly and continues to explain that the eagerness from the developers has spread across the office. The developers get mediocre pay and equipment from Intermedia Invest who has also hired Tore Sætermoen from Cap Gemini to bring structure to the project. For the risky first six months with startup costs, Yuen will recieve 20% from the company.
But even though the risk that a million-dollar investment flopping is high, the potential profit is even higher. Forrester Research claims that online games will be over 234 billion (Norweigian kroner) in 2005, so even a small success for Darkfall could mean major income. - Now we have given them time until new Years and after that we may see something from them that is interesting for other investors.
Another Darkfall developer of limited experience, who does not seem to of spent much time actually developing Darkfall in 2004.
Owner, net-tomorrow.com
Greece
Past
PHP programmer at Aventurine S.A programmer at aventurine
Education
University of Teesside
Experience Owner net-tomorrow.com (Computer Software industry) Currently holds this position PHP programmer Aventurine S.A
(Public Company; 11-50 employees; Computer Games industry) March 2004 — October 2004 (8 months) PHP programmer on various aspects of the MMORPG game darkfall online programmer aventurine (Computer Software industry) 2004 — 2004 (less than a year)
11-50 employees, I bet he actually only ever met 11 others, they probably told him they had 50 though, like they tell us they have 30+. A period of only 8 months, 5 years ago, how can they ever expect to make any sort progress realistically with this type of employment pattern.
Good stuff man, slowly, but surely we are unvealing Aventurine's true form.It seems to me like these guys sold the idea of DF, then got started on the game, and were tremendously overwhelmed by reality of game development, bunch of rookies.Would explain a lot of things.
It also reassures me that this game is indeed never coming out, or if it is it'll be DnL2.0
I don't think it'll hurt interest in this type of game.
Not in playing it, surely, but it will hurt interest to invest in this type of game. While as a dev you might be very enthusiastic about a concept, it's hard to sell it to an investor only interested in the bottom line if all of its previous examples have been failures, and the more examples the harder it is to argue that there isn't any correlation between the base concept and all its past failures.
But you have to consider who Tasos/Aventurine targeted for investing. Small, no-name companies and single individuals. Companies and people who probably didn't have the knowledge of gaming and what a developer should be bringing to the table when asking for investments. People who could be easily blinded by "big returns".
This is why they didn't go to SOE, Mythic, Codemasters, etc.,etc. and get funded. Not because the game idea was bad, but because those companies know what to look for and would have smelled the burn a 100 miles away.
Edit: Doesn't this make alot more sense now? Instead of "We turned all the big boys down"?
And why do you think not one of these "big boys" ever admitted that Aventurine approached them? Because Aventurine didn't.
This is exactly what Colton Burgess did with Thrones of Chaos ( Mourning ). Found no-name individual investors while he hawked screenshots and a "tech demo" of the game before running with the money.
Uhhh... No I think he didn't go with big name companies because no one wanted a FFA full loot game. They all wanted to make another WoW clone, and would probably say stuff like, "Sure, we'll fund you, you need to put safe zones into the game though."
Comments
Yes, Anastasios Flampouras, obviously Tasos.
You can see their full and correct names on the documents I have linked too, of course I’m presuming they actually used there real full and correct names on these legal documents but decided not to for a more informal impression when promoting and marketing Darkfall.
The change between p and b might be language differences, or a typo.
If you look at the response given to me by the GameWorld editor over at youtube, you'll see he used "Flampouras" as well.
Claus Grovdal claimed that Razorwax was founded by him Kjetil and Ricki in 2000 ostensibly to develop Darkfall.
But he did not mention that Benjamin Cabarrubias Bye was the executive director of Razorwax and also on the board of directors / founders.
http://w2.brreg.no/kunngjoring/hent_alle.jsp?kid=20080000247056&sokeverdi=981988167
Foretaksregisteret 06.06.2000
Who appears to of started Vaagen Asset Managment ASA in 2007, and is currently its general manager.
http://www.1881.no/Roller/Vaagen+Asset+Management+ASA_E107981984/
Tasos is Greek is he not? There may be different methods of converting a Greek name into English. They don't use the same letters we do you know.
CHANGE OF MANAGEMENT BOARD
Director: Benjamin Cabarrubias Bye
Claus Hågensen Grøvdal
Leif Tore Sætermoen
Simon Yuen
Leif Tore Sætermoen
Proebely Chief Investmant Officer for this IT services company
http://www.sogeti.no/templates/Sogeti_LokalStartsida____2064.aspx
These people and this change in management was probably made because these people themselves or the company's they represented invested in Razorwax, Razorwax was registered as a gambling / bingo / sweepstakes service’s company.
At the same time Claus Hågensen Grøvdal was changed to Executive Director
Wow, Polarization! You finally killed it, man! This is better than a mystery novel!
Most of us old former followers of this game just moved the f--- on years ago, figuring the game would eventually fade into oblivion and nobody would ever find out what the f--- was going on with it. It was enough to know that it was vaporware built upon a massive pile of lies.
But you finally took it to a whole new level, man, this is amazing stuff. You should be a private eye. I'm serious. You obviously have a great nose for ferreting stuff out, are stubborn as hell, and an analytical nature.
People think it doesn't matter, but look at all these fanbois even on this board, who have wasted so much time and energy on this barrel of lies. They are the suckers, and the ones who aren't completely retarded deserve a bit of justice to have the liar's game exposed. So in my eyes you have done more than a few good deeds here.
The one sad thing is once the fan boys disappear this board won't be good for any more laughs. Oh well.
I've a suspicion of what user you were from the official forums. And I'm sure if I were you I could find out for sure whether I'm right or not. But I'm not, and it doesn't really matter, anyways... just keep up the great work man! This is one of the most awesome threads I have ever read on a forum. And I've read hundreds of thousands of em.
The one and only.
Haha, I was a constructive and positive member..... except when the devs were lying to everyone. Which turned out pretty quickly to be most of the time....
For some reason back in 2001, 2002, 2003 the "Darkfall" idea really seemed possible. And now for some reason it doesn't. Kind of sad when you think about it. I believe there is still a tremendous unrealized potential in the MMORPG genre, and projects like "Darkfall" really hurt that potential a lot. They close up people's minds so they forget what is possible. Not only I think among gamers, but surely among developers too. Projects like Darkfall give a taint to the ideas behind the game, the ideas that generated such great hype in the first place. As if they are only pie in the sky.
Some of the technical things might be pie in the sky, but the concept of an MMORPG with profound player freedom of action, intelligence and skill in the gameplay, and no mindless grind... is very much possible, and I still believe would be quite popular if executed well.
EDIT: I still can't get over how they changed stuff on their linked-in profiles based on this page. Wow! Talk about putting the feet to the fire. Who could have known how keenly that pen prick on a random Internet message board would be felt, heh.
The one and only.
6 months later Benjamin Cabarrubias Bye who was Razorwax’s executive director at its founding appears to no longer involved in the company.
CHANGE OF MANAGEMENT BOARD
Board:
The chairman of the board: Trond Erik Heier, Erling Skjalgsson
Leif Tore Sætermoen
Simon Yuen
later that month Razorwax publicly announce they have been developing a MMORPG called Darkfall since 2000, despite Razorwax being registered as a company offering bingo/gambling/sweepstakes services.
http://rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/features/interviews/darkfall.shtml
In Nov/Dec 2002 Razorwax makes and announcement they claim they have "found" and “signed” a “publishing deal” for Darkfall with a Greek publisher (Aventurine), and "merged" Razorwax with Aventurine in Greece to continue development.
http://www.anvilsociety.com/wax/news2.htm
http://www.warcry.com/news/view/2503
4 months later Razorwax's Board changes again.
Enterprises 06.02.2003
CHANGE OF MANAGEMENT BOARD
Board:
The chairman of the board: Jade El Mehdawi, Himras 12 Kifissia GR-14562 Athens, Greece
Director: Anastasios Flampouras AKA "Tasos"
Spiridon Iordanis
Claus Hågensen Grøvdal
Ricki Michael Sickenger
Just because I made constructive and positive posts did not mean I didn’t always have misgivings about the project, or that I was not skeptical, I was just willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for the first 4 or 5 years.
I still remember when I first read the first announcement about the game in 2001, I read the interview and thought that sounds great, but it sounds to good to be true, ill believe it when I see it.
And then when I clicked on the few screen shots in the article I thought, ok, looks like there’s still a lot of work to go, and 8 years later it still looks like there’s a lot of work to go to me.
I agree with you about the potential of a game like Darkfall and its concepts and that’s the only reason why I’ve ever dedicated anytime to it, I don’t really care about any other type’s of MMO’s so I just don’t get involved with them, apart from playing them, normally for a very limited amount of time.
I don’t know what the effects if any Darkfall failure will have, plenty of PvP sand box type games like Darkfall proposes to be have released and failed before or never managed to release, so I think there will still remain a community of people who will still wait for the next one, whatever or whenever that may come.
These are some of the people who are listed on the board of Razorwax who invested in it, that we actually know the amount of money they lost when Razorwax “moved” to Greece, after they where convinced to invest in it.
Simon Yuen, owns in Norway Kingclaw AS,Royal Supreme Sea Food AS, Intermeal Gruppen AS and also Intermedia Invest.
Trond Erik Heier was a manager at Intermedia Invest at the time.
Yuen and Trond Heier were “convinced” to invest 500-550k dollars in Darkfall by a “thick” and “enthusiastic” presentation that convinced them, “these boys are so good and convincing that we chose to bet on them” Yuen thought he would receive 20% from the company, and thought “even a small success for Darkfall could mean major income.”
Intermedia invest also hired Leif Tore Sætermoen, another board member to “bring structure to the project” and also provided equipment and mediocre pay.
Trond Heier said “Now we have given them time until new Years and after that we may see something from them that is interesting for other investors.”
And that is exactly the reason why Razorwax “found”/ created a new publisher Aventurine and decided to “move” to Greece, their major investor expected results by the end of 2002, but after spending Yuen’s 500-550k $’s for 2 years and having nothing substantial to show for it, they simply started a new company called Aventurine and “moved” development of Darkfall to Greece.
http://www.anvilsociety.com/wax/intermedia.htm
http://www.anvilsociety.com/wax/trondheier.htm
I would like to know how much money Benjamin Cabarrubias Bye the founding executive director of Razorwax, and Erling Skjalgsson one of its Chairman possibly invested and also might of lost when Razorwax “moved” development to Aventurine.
And why did Razorwax continue as a company until it was declared bankrupt in 2006 after we were told it “merged” with Aventurine, and why did Jade El Mehdawi, Tasos and Spiridon Iordanis become members and chairman of the board of Razorwax after Aventurine was created by them and the developers from Razorwax in 2003.
And why did the Auditor of Razorwax note illegal loans to shareholder, the general manager, board member or other twice after this, and other auditing irregularities, did they continue attempting to make Razorwax a success in bingo/sweepstakes gambling services until it went bankrupt or was it for other reasons.
Very interesting info in these threads, Polar. I really appreciate you sharing it with us.
I am going to have to take my own advice. I have been saying others should lower expecations...now I wonder if even my own were too high.
I don't think it'll hurt interest in this type of game. All of us, down to the utmost total hater, began watching Darkfall because of the features it offered. This game could work and could make millions for a competent and honest developer. Unfortunately, Darkfall will not be that game, as we all know it's developer is neither of those things.
What most need to realize, especially the diehard "fanbois", is that the success of this type of game in the market depends on the scammer asshat "developers" being exposed and removed from the scene, so real developers who see the interest in the game can come in and make it.
For every scammer/fraud developer we as gamers remove, that's just an improvement on the company which ends up taking this type of game serious. Like in any other product environment, you weed out the snake oil salesmen to let the real guys shine.
There will be a game like Darkfall, of this I have no doubt. But it will not be by Razorwax/Aventurine/whatever name they choose next.
Very interesting info, and great work Polar. Hey, if you have some free time, I think maybe your skills could be used to look deeper into EA/Mythic and WAR.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Not in playing it, surely, but it will hurt interest to invest in this type of game. While as a dev you might be very enthusiastic about a concept, it's hard to sell it to an investor only interested in the bottom line if all of its previous examples have been failures, and the more examples the harder it is to argue that there isn't any correlation between the base concept and all its past failures.
Not in playing it, surely, but it will hurt interest to invest in this type of game. While as a dev you might be very enthusiastic about a concept, it's hard to sell it to an investor only interested in the bottom line if all of its previous examples have been failures, and the more examples the harder it is to argue that there isn't any correlation between the base concept and all its past failures.
But you have to consider who Tasos/Aventurine targeted for investing. Small, no-name companies and single individuals. Companies and people who probably didn't have the knowledge of gaming and what a developer should be bringing to the table when asking for investments. People who could be easily blinded by "big returns".
This is why they didn't go to SOE, Mythic, Codemasters, etc.,etc. and get funded. Not because the game idea was bad, but because those companies know what to look for and would have smelled the burn a 100 miles away.
Edit: Doesn't this make alot more sense now? Instead of "We turned all the big boys down"?
And why do you think not one of these "big boys" ever admitted that Aventurine approached them? Because Aventurine didn't.
This is exactly what Colton Burgess did with Thrones of Chaos ( Mourning ). Found no-name individual investors while he hawked screenshots and a "tech demo" of the game before running with the money.
Er, I was talking about legitimate enterprises. Of course it wouldn't deter potential scammers from getting money from ignorant investors, if anything it would encourage them.
Which was my point above. A real developer with the same game idea, but with nothing to hide, could and would be able to approach those big boys even after this fiasco and have a very good chance of getting the funding and support needed to make the game.
Which was my point above. A real developer with the same game idea, but with nothing to hide, could and would be able to approach those big boys even after this fiasco and have a very good chance of getting the funding and support needed to make the game.
I disagree. It goes against market trends and has a poor track record to boot. Another failure would just worsen the record regardless of where funding for that came. Were it so easy and in so much demand we would've seen an attempt by far more known and experienced devs already.
And I think the same thing happened to the other people that seem to of been involved with Razorwax before it “merged” with and created Aventurine after failing to show their investors anything after 2 years.
Whether or not they where selling their concept for a game they think could be a worldwide success in a few years, or online sweepstake/ bingo/ gambling services.
And the same thing happened to Jade El Mehdawi, when he was convinced to invest 50% ownership in Razorwax, and presumably a similar amount in Aventurine by the “boys” with some help presumably from Tasos.
And the same thing happened when Henning Ludvigson or any of the other developer / owners were convinced to invest and get involved with Aventurine when it was created.
I agree that the only investment they have ever managed to get is from small companies and single individuals who don’t have any experience or knowledge of the industry, but I don’t believe apart from Simon Yuen and Jade El Mehdawi that they have ever been successful enough to attract the sort of investment necessary for a project of this magnitude.
Which explains why the company and Darkfall is almost entirely self owned and self financed by the developers and producers themselves, and why thy have demonstrated so little progress after so many years, and why they are involved with all these other activity’s other then actually developing the game.
This is exactly what happened to Trond Hier, and Simon Yuen’s half a million dollars.
The last group to have joined his list of projects were the four game developers that banded together under the name of Razorwax. This summer they to Yuen with a thick presentation of their idea for a game - a game they think could be a worldwide success in a few years.
"It was the enthusiasm that convinced us", says Trond Heier. "We do admit that we know very little about this kind of business, but these boys are so good and convincing that we chose to bet on them. They have a huge competence, much stamina and are willing to recieve a lower salary than other places", says Heier.
Yuens gut feeling: Despite the fact that Intermedia Invenst already has six demanding groups in the briefcase, they squeezed Razorwax in this summer. "I didn't really want to, becuase we have a small capacity, but Yuen convinced me." Heier smiles broadly and continues to explain that the eagerness from the developers has spread across the office. The developers get mediocre pay and equipment from Intermedia Invest who has also hired Tore Sætermoen from Cap Gemini to bring structure to the project. For the risky first six months with startup costs, Yuen will recieve 20% from the company.
But even though the risk that a million-dollar investment flopping is high, the potential profit is even higher. Forrester Research claims that online games will be over 234 billion (Norweigian kroner) in 2005, so even a small success for Darkfall could mean major income. - Now we have given them time until new Years and after that we may see something from them that is interesting for other investors.
Jade El Mehdawi appears to own lots of horses, listed on this Belgium website, obviously somebody of considerable means.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+site:www.equibel.be++Jade+El+Mehdawi&hl=en&filter=0
http://www.equibel.be/general/horses_detail.php?horse=131848
The investigation continues…
Another Darkfall developer of limited experience, who does not seem to of spent much time actually developing Darkfall in 2004.
Owner, net-tomorrow.com
Greece
Past
PHP programmer at Aventurine S.A
programmer at aventurine
Education
University of Teesside
Experience
Owner net-tomorrow.com
(Computer Software industry)
Currently holds this position
PHP programmer
Aventurine S.A
(Public Company; 11-50 employees; Computer Games industry)
March 2004 — October 2004 (8 months)
PHP programmer on various aspects of the MMORPG game darkfall online
programmer aventurine
(Computer Software industry)
2004 — 2004 (less than a year)
11-50 employees, I bet he actually only ever met 11 others, they probably told him they had 50 though, like they tell us they have 30+.
A period of only 8 months, 5 years ago, how can they ever expect to make any sort progress realistically with this type of employment pattern.
Private
*Edit it was for 10 months
NOVEMBER 2006 TO AUGUST 2007: DARKFALL, online multi player role playing video game
Work place: Aventurine, Athens, Greece, http://www.aventurine.gr/ .
Position: 3d character animator.
Tasks: animated humanoid and 4 legged creatures, skinned characters, animated particles for explosions.
Softwares used: 3dsMax 8 and especially the Character Studio part, XSI 6.
Client: Darkfall’s game publisher, game sold worldwide (see http://www.darkfallonline.com/ ).
Independent Entertainment Professional
Brest Area, France
Current
3d character animator & 3d generalist freelancer at www.DavidSaber.com
Past
3d character animator at Aventurine
3d animator, 3d generalist at Antefilms
3d all-rounder at Pagecran
Summary
3d character animator and 3d generalist, having worked in various places.
Specialties:
XSI, character animation.
Yet another freelance 3D artist who worked on Aventurine at some time in the past.
Private
Good stuff man, slowly, but surely we are unvealing Aventurine's true form.It seems to me like these guys sold the idea of DF, then got started on the game, and were tremendously overwhelmed by reality of game development, bunch of rookies.Would explain a lot of things.
It also reassures me that this game is indeed never coming out, or if it is it'll be DnL2.0
Not in playing it, surely, but it will hurt interest to invest in this type of game. While as a dev you might be very enthusiastic about a concept, it's hard to sell it to an investor only interested in the bottom line if all of its previous examples have been failures, and the more examples the harder it is to argue that there isn't any correlation between the base concept and all its past failures.
But you have to consider who Tasos/Aventurine targeted for investing. Small, no-name companies and single individuals. Companies and people who probably didn't have the knowledge of gaming and what a developer should be bringing to the table when asking for investments. People who could be easily blinded by "big returns".
This is why they didn't go to SOE, Mythic, Codemasters, etc.,etc. and get funded. Not because the game idea was bad, but because those companies know what to look for and would have smelled the burn a 100 miles away.
Edit: Doesn't this make alot more sense now? Instead of "We turned all the big boys down"?
And why do you think not one of these "big boys" ever admitted that Aventurine approached them? Because Aventurine didn't.
This is exactly what Colton Burgess did with Thrones of Chaos ( Mourning ). Found no-name individual investors while he hawked screenshots and a "tech demo" of the game before running with the money.
Uhhh... No I think he didn't go with big name companies because no one wanted a FFA full loot game. They all wanted to make another WoW clone, and would probably say stuff like, "Sure, we'll fund you, you need to put safe zones into the game though."
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