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Is this true?
Friction2u
Member Posts: 293
I did some research on Citadel of Sorcery if anyone is interested. What motivated me was the appalling graphics and the rough-looking official site. I just had to know who was behind this. Scammers? College kids? Leprechauns?
I did a whois on the offical site (citadelofsorcery.com)and it came back that the people who registered that domain are Atlantis3D Inc.
I typed their address into google maps and found it to be some kind of business park.
After checking the street view I found the below sign ...
So the business park is composed of lots of small office suites.
That's good. CoS isn't a scam then and it's not being done by college students.
So why are the screenshots so appalling?
I Googled Atlantis3D Inc and discovered that they sell screen savers for a living.
I did a whois on Atlantis3D Inc and got the same address so they are indeed the same people.
Compare
http://whois.domaintools.com/citadelofsorcery.com
http://whois.domaintools.com/atlantis3d.com
So the people making CoS are probably a very small team with limited game/3d modelling experience - hence the crappy screenshots and the need for a publisher to inject money into the project so they can hire talented people and get the ball rolling.
The problem I'm seeing is that no publisher or investor is going to stump up cash to a screensaver company on the strength of those screenshots.
CoS devs - you have to improve what your game looks like (concept art, cgi trailer, renders, screenshots) to have any chance of success.
Seriously.
Comments
http://www.domaintools.com/registrant-search/?and[]=ron@deruyter.com
If anyone is willing to pay, or know of a website that doesn't charge, ron@deruyter.com is the registrant for TCoS and 3 other sites.
One of those other sites I think is a family site with family pics etc in it. I'll bet the others are similar or related to the screen saver business.
It kinda makes me wish they really succeed. Small family business catapulted into international mega-conglomerate!
Yup, I just googled the e-mail and got the family pic site...this does make me worry about this game slightly though. A screensaver company working out of a crappy little leased office.
Edit: I'm dumb, I confused The Chronicles of Spellborne with Citadel of Sorcery...this makes more sense now...whatever, this is a small game anyway.
All I can say is your wrong, so wrong.
CoS is still in development, graphics are normally the last thing a company does before release. CoS has another year or two at least in development.
Stick to the Darkfall forums Friction2u
Sooner or Later
<Mod edit>
Let's simply set the record straight. We've made no real secrets of much of our development, so I'm not sure what the user Friction2U thinks he is uncovering. Some people just have too much time and not enough to do I guess.
Let's start with Atlantis3D, Inc. This is a small technology development company. They began making a new 3D engine quite a few years ago. During that process they turned out some nice screensavers as tests of the early engine. A long time has past since then and now they have licensed their improved engine to several industries, including the game industry.
MMO Magic, Inc., as stated in numerous places that Friction2U could have read if he even bothered, is a small team of game industry professionals. We've made no secret of this, anywhere. I think <Mod edit>
As for the connection between A3D and MMO Magic, Inc., two employees of A3D were involved in the team that started MMO Magic, Inc. They brokered the deal for the engine and then moved over to MMO Magic, Inc. since they were really from the game industry originally. For the past 2 plus years the engine has been further developed and improved by MMO Magics programmers for use in Citadel of Sorcery, which has specific needs in an engine not included in the basic package created by A3D.
The 'nefarious' location that Friction2U supposedly uncovered is a P.O. Box we use to keep meddlesome people like Friction2U from coming and bothering us while we work on Citadel of Sorcery. The P.O. Box is located near Mr. DeRuyter's house so that it is easy for him to check the box regularly. There, big mystery uncovered! And yes, Mr. DeRuyter has some personal family web sites, and this matters how?
If Friction2U had bothered to do even BASIC research he would have found that Mr. DeRuyter has worked at other game companies, in various positions, including Producer on a shipped title. Most of the people involved in the MMO Magic team have credits on many shipped games in the industry.
We choose NOT to seek a publisher at this point in development so that the game could be made to our original design. As previously publicly stated, we will seek a publisher when we feel the game is far enough along to prove the game design by allowing a publisher to experience the game, not read about the design. We are far along toward this goal, but not there yet. Art is only being taken so far, we only need it good enough to prove game play. Not that we think much of Friction2Us opinion anyway on even our prototype.
We have made little secret of the size of our team, or what we are doing. If he had bothered to read he would have also found that we stated that the game is far in technology and design, but barely started in art. Rather than make groundless and childish accusations about things of which he has no knowledge, why didnt Friction2U just ask or bother to read? No, he is just wasting your time and ours.
Well, this is the last response we will be posting to that user. We will, however, be glad to answer anyone elses questions about the project on any area in which we are allowed to give out information. Some information about the game is of course, kept secret, and some information about who is working on the game is also kept secret <Mod edit>
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1902110#1902110
That MMO Magic are using a 3D engine from a screensaver company is new information.
It's perfectly understandable for a game developer to get irritated when someone does a search and discovers that the 3D engine that they are using originally came from a screensaver company, but, in a post-"Thrones of Chaos/Mourning" world you have to expect people to thoroughly research mmo companies and games that people have never heard of before.
A lot of people lost money on the "Thrones of Chaos" scam which has made people much more cautious.
There are an awful lot of points for me to address there. Let me do that via a time line.Ron DeRuyter (the developer I suspect is behind Citadel of Sorcery and who registered the CitadelOfSorcery.com domain via Atlantis3D) used to work for "Silent Software" (which later became known as "Prolific Publishing Inc") and was involved in titles as below ...
Return Fire 1995
http://www.mobygames.com/game/return-fire
He's not listed in the credits there but it is listed here
MatchBox Caterpillar Construction Zone 1999
There in the credits he is listed as a Level Builder
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/matchbox-caterpillar-construction-zone/credits
Hot Wheels Crash 1999
Again he is listed as a Level Builder
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/hot-wheels-crash/credits
Walt Disney World Quest Magical Racing Tour
Where under the Prolific Publishing section he is listed as Production Services
http://www.answers.com/topic/walt-disney-world-quest-magical-racing-tour-game-1?cat=entertainment
Sometime after this he started Atlantis 3D Inc - whose domain was registered by a Brian DeRuyter, a relative. I'm assuming that Ron worked under Brian but that would just be an assumption on my part and it's equally likely that the pair were partners.
http://deruyter.com (right at the bottom)
This small family company, whose address and office location is in the opening post above, started work on the Trident 3D engine early versions of which were used to create those 3D screensavers.
Eventually the team decided on an ambitious project, to develop an mmorpg game and Ron DeRuyter registered the CitadelOfSorcery domain from the existing Atlantis 3D address (the link is in the opening post).
Ron DeRuyter and one other person (you said two moved over) then set up MMO Magic and licensed the existing Trident 3D engine from Atlantis 3D. I'm assuming that a deal between friends and family would have been much more advantageous, cost wise and in terms of inside knowledge of the engine, than opting to license an existing engine which would has cost an arm and a leg.
Do I win a cookie?
I seem to have hit a nerve, which wasn't my intention. I can understand that a developer that has worked very hard on his project may be sensitive to criticism from others, but my criticism was intended as constructive criticism.
In today's media-orientated world impressions account for much and I was merely trying to say that your company needs to improve the first-time impressions that people get when visiting your site or browsing the screenshots here on mmorpg. Your game concept is great ... it's just the presentation that is lacking, that's all.
Really do not understand what you are trying to achieve Friction2u? Have they asked you to give them money? Are they part of some underworld plot to take over the world? Or are you employed by some corporation to rubbish new innovative ideas?
A game costs me nothing until its released, If someone has a good idea for a game and the skills to create it who cares where they live and work. Our industry has a history of good products created by small teams in garages, all that is needed to create software is a computer, Time, skill and a good Idea. What I am fed up with is corporates milking the Market with WoW clones doing the same old stuff with differnt graphics and a few tweaks.
I'm not trying to "achieve" anything. I did a lot of searching and came up with some surprising information, that's all. How many screensaver companies move on to creating a mmorpg?
I'm not trying to "achieve" anything. I did a lot of searching and came up with some surprising information, that's all. How many screensaver companies move on to creating a mmorpg?
Friction2u, you are not understanding or are just being stupied. Their is no Screensaver company. The company was working on a 3d engine. The 3d engine produced some great screensaver shots during the development of the Engine and they decided to market them. The screensavers are a side product to the main product of the 3d engine.
I got all that information from reading Jatar's post.
Also you say that you just wanted to warn them about giving a bad first impression, guess what, most people that visit the CoS website are very exicted after read and looking at the screenshots. Graphics mean nothing to most gamers, most gamers will play a crappy looking game as long as the gameplay is amazing. CoS is shotting for amazing Gameplay, so graphics mean little. Graphics will be improved for sure, just like in most games, they are done as part of the polishing stage.
Friction2u, you need to give it a rest, you are wrong, you were proven wrong by Jatar, its time to move back to the Darkfall forums.
Sooner or Later
What is the surprise? You saying only corporates have the imagination and skills to create games? many successful companies started small, Bill Gates had no track record prior to producing an operating system. Your research is pointless. Lets see the finished product and then make a judgement.
http://deruyter.com/
Yeah, I think you're right there, but graphics will pull in an awful lot of people. Look at AoC for instance. In hindsight its graphics was its biggest selling point. People see the screenshots and preview videos and go "damn! I gotta try that out!". Funcom sold shed loads of boxes despite the gameplay being a bit "meh".
I play Mount and Blade a lot. The graphics are pretty rough looking, so I doubt many people get drawn in that way. It does have very fun gameplay and the game itself spreads through word-of-mouth.
The nirvana would be a game with incredible gameplay and great graphics.
Haven't found one yet.
I agree. I have no doubt about that. But pretty pictures have a habit of drawing in fans. Look at Darkfall. In the early razorwax years I'm pretty certain that the "in-game" pics were fake. They looked good (for the time anyway) and people could compare great (promised) gameplay with good graphics and say "WoW! I'm following this game!"
The people at Mortal Online are doing the same kind of thing. They have no in-game footage of anything. All they have is a cgi trailer, a cool site and some nice concept art - yet they have attracted a fair sized following.
All I'm saying is that window dressing - even if it's just simple things like a cool site or concept art - is a great way of promoting the game and getting the maximum amount of people to read about the features and become followers.
Fine. I'll keep quiet now. I know when I'm not wanted.
And btw ... there's nothing wrong with using a modified 3D engine for a mmorpg that was originally used for screensavers. You'd be surprised to hear how much software out there had started out in life as smaller, simpler programs.
EDIT - From one of my previous posts (post 9)
"This small family company, whose address and office location is in the opening post above, started work on the Trident 3D engine – early versions of which were used to create those 3D screensavers."
I'm not bashing the game for pete's sake.
Friction, you're wrong. Just give up, you have been proved wrong by both Jatar and Tdog, now just stop...
Try doing actual basic reearch before you post again.
__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
http://deruyter.com/
Yeah, I think you're right there, but graphics will pull in an awful lot of people. Look at AoC for instance. In hindsight its graphics was its biggest selling point. People see the screenshots and preview videos and go "damn! I gotta try that out!". Funcom sold shed loads of boxes despite the gameplay being a bit "meh".
I play Mount and Blade a lot. The graphics are pretty rough looking, so I doubt many people get drawn in that way. It does have very fun gameplay and the game itself spreads through word-of-mouth.
The nirvana would be a game with incredible gameplay and great graphics.
Haven't found one yet.
I agree. I have no doubt about that. But pretty pictures have a habit of drawing in fans. Look at Darkfall. In the early razorwax years I'm pretty certain that the "in-game" pics were fake. They looked good (for the time anyway) and people could compare great (promised) gameplay with good graphics and say "WoW! I'm following this game!"
The people at Mortal Online are doing the same kind of thing. They have no in-game footage of anything. All they have is a cgi trailer, a cool site and some nice concept art - yet they have attracted a fair sized following.
All I'm saying is that window dressing - even if it's just simple things like a cool site or concept art - is a great way of promoting the game and getting the maximum amount of people to read about the features and become followers.
Fine. I'll keep quiet now. I know when I'm not wanted.
And btw ... there's nothing wrong with using a modified 3D engine for a mmorpg that was originally used for screensavers. You'd be surprised to hear how much software out there had started out in life as smaller, simpler programs.
This is part of Jatar's post.
"Let's start with Atlantis3D, Inc. This is a small technology development company. They began making a new 3D engine quite a few years ago. During that process they turned out some nice screensavers as tests of the early engine. A long time has past since then and now they have licensed their improved engine to several industries, including the game industry. "
Altantis3d, Inc - created a new 3d engine - said engine turned out some nice screensavers as tests - the Screensavers are a side product - Main product the new 3d engine.
Its all right in that little bit by Jatar posted. I cant make it any clearer.
Its not that we dont want you here Friction2u, I just want you to understand. It was rude of me to tell you to leave, I am sorry for that... stick around and talk and get to know some of the people around this forum waiting for CoS, just dont post stuff that you do not know. Yes you pulled up information that is true but Jatar also explained why you pulled up the information you did.
Friction2u, please understand that I am not attacking you, I am just trying to get the point across that after the post by Jatar, everything should be clear now.
(Jatar did not have to even response to you at all, remember that)
Sooner or Later
http://deruyter.com/
Yeah, I think you're right there, but graphics will pull in an awful lot of people. Look at AoC for instance. In hindsight its graphics was its biggest selling point. People see the screenshots and preview videos and go "damn! I gotta try that out!". Funcom sold shed loads of boxes despite the gameplay being a bit "meh".
I play Mount and Blade a lot. The graphics are pretty rough looking, so I doubt many people get drawn in that way. It does have very fun gameplay and the game itself spreads through word-of-mouth.
The nirvana would be a game with incredible gameplay and great graphics.
Haven't found one yet.
I agree. I have no doubt about that. But pretty pictures have a habit of drawing in fans. Look at Darkfall. In the early razorwax years I'm pretty certain that the "in-game" pics were fake. They looked good (for the time anyway) and people could compare great (promised) gameplay with good graphics and say "WoW! I'm following this game!"
The people at Mortal Online are doing the same kind of thing. They have no in-game footage of anything. All they have is a cgi trailer, a cool site and some nice concept art - yet they have attracted a fair sized following.
All I'm saying is that window dressing - even if it's just simple things like a cool site or concept art - is a great way of promoting the game and getting the maximum amount of people to read about the features and become followers.
Fine. I'll keep quiet now. I know when I'm not wanted.
And btw ... there's nothing wrong with using a modified 3D engine for a mmorpg that was originally used for screensavers. You'd be surprised to hear how much software out there had started out in life as smaller, simpler programs.
This is part of Jatar's post.
"Let's start with Atlantis3D, Inc. This is a small technology development company. They began making a new 3D engine quite a few years ago. During that process they turned out some nice screensavers as tests of the early engine. A long time has past since then and now they have licensed their improved engine to several industries, including the game industry. "
Altantis3d, Inc - created a new 3d engine - said engine turned out some nice screensavers as tests - the Screensavers are a side product - Main product the new 3d engine.
Its all right in that little bit by Jatar posted. I cant make it any clearer.
Its not that we dont want you here Friction2u, I just want you to understand.
Just to add on...
Modifications to the Trident3D engine begin
16 January 2005
The Trident3D engine has worked out well in our plans.
The original form of the engine was actually started several years previously. It was then improved for two years (2002-2004) and used on several 3D programs (not games). With some additional work it was soon ready to start rendering our MMORPG world.
So as you can see the engine was improved, as well as it being custamizable for an MMORPG.
Not sure if this helps, but just some additional information on the engine
__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
Just to get it off me, Jatar, your post was pretty sad as a dev, informative, but sad in that you fail to act like a dev and address any problems in the post, rather than go out of your way to toss in some personal insults. =/
Moving on, my concern is that the game seems like its being made by an extremely small team it sounds like. If thats the case how much content are they going to be able to come up with beyond the usual questing/xp grind?
Before posting about the game design and team, please read http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/
FYI, Jatar did address all of Friction2u's issues he rasied.
Sooner or Later
Before posting about the game design and team, please read http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/
FYI, Jatar did address all of Friction2u's issues he rasied.
Ive been to the site, and your point?
And yes he sure did, with far less maturity than expected from a dev.
I was wondering how long it would tae to get a reply like this.
Firstly, Jatar did hit all of the main points the needed to be discussed. He hit every single point that Friction brought up, and proved him wrong. I have no idea what the hell you were reading if you didn't see him address all of the points.
Secondly, Friction comes in and makes false claims about their game and their offices. He comes in bashing the game and saying the devs have little experience. Saying that they HAVE to do this and that. Saying that at first impression he thought the game was a scam. Showing where his friend lived. His WHOLE post was full of false assumptions.
I would have been pretty pissed as well, and I think Jatar handled it very well.
__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
Before posting about the game design and team, please read http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/
FYI, Jatar did address all of Friction2u's issues he rasied.
Ive been to the site, and your point?
And yes he sure did, with far less maturity than expected from a dev.
My point is there is not exp/quest grind in CoS.
I dont understand your point about maturity, I don't see why a developer should have to act any more mature then a player. They are both people and people will act anyway they want.
Sooner or Later
Damn the fanbois of this game look really nice, really looking forward to play this game.
If you get bashed when critiscizing some aspects of the site/game. Whats it gonna be when you get some bashing aoc style, are we gonna see open insults from the dev?
Might want to try communication skills/ treating the client like a retarded child strategy ( used by funcom and blizzard to a certain extent), if he gets annoying just ignore him.
I'm not a no life that sits in front of his computer all day long, I'm an intern that sits in front of his computer all day long.
Before posting about the game design and team, please read http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/
FYI, Jatar did address all of Friction2u's issues he rasied.
Ive been to the site, and your point?
And yes he sure did, with far less maturity than expected from a dev.
My point is there is not exp/quest grind in CoS.
I dont understand your point about maturity, I don't see why a developer should have to act any more mature then a player. They are both people and people will act anyway they want.
Ah right, so they say and want, but theirs nothing on the site showing what kind of content is going to be in the game.
Alot off mmo's start off saying how their game is going to be "completely different." From what ive seen and read, they're just talking. Ill wait for them to show off some gameplay to decide on that though.
If he's a dev, he should be treating potential customers with respect, I know if I went off trying to represent who I work for saying stuff like that, id be in a mess. You certainly don't even see the mod's here acting like that.
Never bashed anyone on this thread nor did any of the other fanbois. Sorry you feel that way, but bashing is complete different then responding to critic's.
Jatar's post seem fine in response to someone posting information on a game and a company that was wrong. Why should he have to be nice, when clearly Friction2u was not being nice.
Sooner or Later
I've seen it happen before with devs and site moderators (not here).
The fact is Friction has made countless false assumptions and made personal attacs against the developers in his original post. He showed a living home of his friend/buisness partner..
How would YOU feel if you were a developer of a game Friction said "Your games looks like crap, you clearly have no experience" nd then he showed a picture of your friends' house..I'm betting you would be pretty pissed, especially considering that most the false assumptions Friction made can be found on the main site.
Those aren't Fricion's exact words, but that is what he was saying,.
__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
Before posting about the game design and team, please read http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/
FYI, Jatar did address all of Friction2u's issues he rasied.
Ive been to the site, and your point?
And yes he sure did, with far less maturity than expected from a dev.
My point is there is not exp/quest grind in CoS.
I dont understand your point about maturity, I don't see why a developer should have to act any more mature then a player. They are both people and people will act anyway they want.
Ah right, so they say and want, but theirs nothing on the site showing what kind of content is going to be in the game.
Alot off mmo's start off saying how their game is going to be "completely different." From what ive seen and read, they're just talking. Ill wait for them to show off some gameplay to decide on that though.
If he's a dev, he should be treating potential customers with respect, I know if I went off trying to represent who I work for saying stuff like that, id be in a mess. You certainly don't even see the mod's here acting like that.
http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/questions/questlist.php?Q=1 - This shows what content is going to be in the game.
Quest information is here - http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/questions/questlist.php?Q=3
But you would have read that if you read the web site -
Sooner or Later