I don't like the term "union" for this, since it's more of a non-for-profit advocacy group. I can see it doing the following things:
--Policy crafting: Educating policy makers on the issues we players face, and work with lawmakers to craft legislation designed to protect the consumer and build the genre (I personally think the two go hand in hand).
--Public awareness: Educating we consumers about issues that may fall under the radar, or be obscured (EULAs and our rights, class-action lawsuits and their resolution, how to protect ourselves from scams).
--Industry awareness: Educating the MMO development and publishing houses about player concerns and preferences. After all, both theplayers and the publishers ultimately want the same things: to build a fun and safe industry.
--Research group: Engaging in research about what players want, and how well their preferences are being met by the industry. Publishing 'white papers' and similar studies as a thinktank should.
--Networking resourse: Allows us to coordinate our efforts state-by-state, region-by region so that we are all on the same page, and pooling our resources and efforts.
--Discount club, benefits package for members: Maybe discounts on subscriptions, box prices, beta keys, free trials, or swag as a perk of belonging to the organization. The size of a players organization like this will naturally attract publishers looking for a large audience (think AAA motor club membership discounts, or NRA discounts, etc.).
I think it is high time for something like this, and if it is successful at doing the above things, should be very successful.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
no. why? cause this is a hobby we are choosing to participate in. This is not something which will cause you to lose your job, be blacklisted from other work, or put you in danger. This is a voluntary hobby, and i wouldn't be caught dead with half of you hater/fanbois on the internet. You all scare me
Motorcycling is a voluntary hobby, yet there are issues this hobby faces (helmet laws, insurance issues, off-road usage, etc.) That's why you have the AMA.
Gun ownership is a voluntary matter, yet there are issues that gun owners face. That's why you have the NRA.
Recreational fishing is a hobby, but there are issues that recreational fishers face. That's why you have the recreational fishing alliance.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Maybe we all need a Game Players Union, think about it, companies such as Funcom, SoE and Turbine to just name a few have it all over us when it comes to our rights and what we should expect when we spend our money on their games. I remember when buying a game and registering your purchase, use to mean that you had the right to complain and report bugs, these days we don't even have those rights anymore, it really has become,"Give us your money, sit down shut up and play, you got anything nice to say, put it in the forum, got anything bad or anything else to say then shut up or go away or be banned or expelled." Add to this the false advertising, hyping and incompleteness of games upon release, then there is the false promises of great or greater things to come. Add on top of all this the duel company faces of," Hi, your a valued customer and a possible illegal copyright breaching and Eula breaking game pirate who is selling gold and trolling our forums to make mischief at the company,( sorry we mean Players) expense!" Some ideas about how the union would work and what it could offer to players who join. A complete list of game standards and categories that a game company would need to come up to or complete before they could get a gameplayers union approval. a approval list of games that the union would support and that members could trust with there credit card details, and of course a list of game companies that should not be trusted. This idea could give us the ability to re-balance our rights and voice, over what our money will get us when we purchase a new game. What do you all think, do we or should we have a Game players Union and if so, how should it work or what could it do for us?
*Please try and stick to the topic and try not to re-live old game company nightmares, unless it's part of an exsample, also No soap boxes please, thank you*
Comes to "our rights"? What the hell? "Our rights" as a consumers are to buy the game and play it. Nowhere on the box does it guarantee that you will enjoy the game.
Games are entertainment media, so judging the quality of a game can not be objective. I might like WoW, where as you might hate it. There is no way to create a gradedlist of games that can be applied universally. This sounds like a terrible idea, then.
In fact, gaming unions such as you describe already exist. I would argue that the 'special interest groups of the internet', vocal online communities, already provide their members with the 'services' you've listed. You might even go as far as arguing MMORPG.com is a 'GPU'.
Now to be frank, I hate this sort of self-righteous consumer advocatism. You are just like the people who actually eat at KFC and then throw a fit when the uneducated pot-head teen who cooked their meal has made a mess of things. If you want a quality meal, do not eat at KFC. If you want a quality game, do some research and look for a game that is right for you.
I'm very much against this typ of 'jump to the barricades' sort of activism. Most of the heartaches can be avoided by actually doing some research and being generally well informed about the gaming industry.
The quality of AoC was evident at release. We, the beta testers were more than happy to share our thoughts on the game.
Maybe we all need a Game Players Union, think about it, companies such as Funcom, SoE and Turbine to just name a few have it all over us when it comes to our rights and what we should expect when we spend our money on their games. I remember when buying a game and registering your purchase, use to mean that you had the right to complain and report bugs, these days we don't even have those rights anymore, it really has become,"Give us your money, sit down shut up and play, you got anything nice to say, put it in the forum, got anything bad or anything else to say then shut up or go away or be banned or expelled." Add to this the false advertising, hyping and incompleteness of games upon release, then there is the false promises of great or greater things to come. Add on top of all this the duel company faces of," Hi, your a valued customer and a possible illegal copyright breaching and Eula breaking game pirate who is selling gold and trolling our forums to make mischief at the company,( sorry we mean Players) expense!" Some ideas about how the union would work and what it could offer to players who join. A complete list of game standards and categories that a game company would need to come up to or complete before they could get a gameplayers union approval. a approval list of games that the union would support and that members could trust with there credit card details, and of course a list of game companies that should not be trusted. This idea could give us the ability to re-balance our rights and voice, over what our money will get us when we purchase a new game. What do you all think, do we or should we have a Game players Union and if so, how should it work or what could it do for us?
*Please try and stick to the topic and try not to re-live old game company nightmares, unless it's part of an exsample, also No soap boxes please, thank you*
oh god no.
Especially since this just seems to be a vehicle to get what a small amount of players want but not necessarily what "I" want. I have seen so many posts on these forums and quite frankly my idea of what entertainment is doesn't really gel with what many players on these particular forums want.
And since you vote with your dollars it seems to me that there is already a system in place to help guide companies. our wallets.
Sorry, not interested. If I see a game I like I'll try it. If I don't like it I'll move on to something else.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
In order for a game to be able to put the seal on a game, It would have to pass certian requirements of beta test to a panel of judges that would look for content and system requirements. would have to rule out fun, as there can't be an opinion.
I guess microsoft may have something like that, but I think it's more like asking mircosoft to sponser them reguardless if there good or not, in fact I think AoC is one of them, so no credibility there, it's more of a money thing no matter how good a game is !!
Microsoft is more like Nascar, if you give us some money will put Dr. Pepper of the side of our car.
So why MMO is the only industry in the world where you actually have to be able to make the same thing you are buying to have the possibility to defend your rights as a consumer?
You are over-assuming. All I'm suggesting is that you use empathy and think about the producer for once. It takes years of work and millions of dollars to make a good MMOG - and it's very risky too.
'Voting with the wallet' is a far more antagonistic, destructive, and ineffective solution to player problems than it needs to be. It's antagonistic because it influences the industry only by severing oneself from it. It is destructive because it can only grow the industry by starving it. It is ultimately ineffective, because :
1) The MMO publisher has already profited from you before you even create an account.
2) If you are cancelling, chances are the game wasn't marketed to you anyway, making you superfluous.
3) The player is the ultimate loser, since their software is now useless.
4) Mass cancellations kill games.
5) Mass dead games kill industries.
6) How do dead industries and dead games serve we who like MMOs?
We should be working to build this industry, not destroy it. And ultimately, that's why a "G.P.U." is a very good thing for both the players and the game publishers. Because when we work together, we can prevent mass-cancellations, bad word of mouth, and make the games more satisfying to both the publishers and the players.
That being said, we shouldn't be industry patsys. Nothing constructive has come from the shills and managed communities of official boards. Working together means respecting each other as equal partners; not as inconsequential consumers to be fed whatever the publishers want.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Need more like cetirfied games, In order for a game to be able to put the seal on a game, It would have to pass certian requirements of beta test to a panel of judges that would look for content and system requirements. would have to rule out fun, as there can't be an opinion. I guess microsoft may have something like that, but I think it's more like asking mircosoft to sponser them reguardless if there good or not, in fact I think AoC is one of them, so no credibility there, it's more of a money thing no matter how good a game is !! Microsoft is more like Nascar, if you give us some money will put Dr. Pepper of the side of our car.
Page, I like your line of thought. Quite a brilliant idea, actually.
Game certification is definitely something I want to see. The certification could be something like what we see in the business world, SOX, JSOX and so forth. The criteria could be stability, security and performance. These are criteria that can be graded objectively, and if a developer gets all of these three on the money, I am fairly sure the game design can not be too far off the mark either.
Need more like cetirfied games, In order for a game to be able to put the seal on a game, It would have to pass certian requirements of beta test to a panel of judges that would look for content and system requirements. would have to rule out fun, as there can't be an opinion. I guess microsoft may have something like that, but I think it's more like asking mircosoft to sponser them reguardless if there good or not, in fact I think AoC is one of them, so no credibility there, it's more of a money thing no matter how good a game is !! Microsoft is more like Nascar, if you give us some money will put Dr. Pepper of the side of our car.
Page, I like your line of thought. Quite a brilliant idea, actually.
Game certification is definitely something I want to see. The certification could be something like what we see in the business world, SOX, JSOX and so forth. The criteria could be stability, security and performance. These are criteria that can be graded objectively, and if a developer gets all of these three on the money, I am fairly sure the game design can not be too far off the mark either.
Taht's a better idea but it's still not going to work.
If a game company runs out of money they will need to release "no matter what". They will not be able to get any rating as there will be issues so they won't be submitting their games. Movie companies do the same thing. If they think their movie won't get good reviews they just don't allow reviewers to review it until it's actually released.
And I'm sorry, I have huge problems with many posters on this forum and what they think "good game design" is. And as the range of what these people want is so wide, you are just going to get arguments.
If you can pull off a rating then great. However, I don't think it will have any meaning in the end for the reasons I said above.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Need more like cetirfied games, In order for a game to be able to put the seal on a game, It would have to pass certian requirements of beta test to a panel of judges that would look for content and system requirements. would have to rule out fun, as there can't be an opinion. I guess microsoft may have something like that, but I think it's more like asking mircosoft to sponser them reguardless if there good or not, in fact I think AoC is one of them, so no credibility there, it's more of a money thing no matter how good a game is !! Microsoft is more like Nascar, if you give us some money will put Dr. Pepper of the side of our car.
Page, I like your line of thought. Quite a brilliant idea, actually.
Game certification is definitely something I want to see. The certification could be something like what we see in the business world, SOX, JSOX and so forth. The criteria could be stability, security and performance. These are criteria that can be graded objectively, and if a developer gets all of these three on the money, I am fairly sure the game design can not be too far off the mark either.
Taht's a better idea but it's still not going to work.
If a game company runs out of money they will need to release "no matter what". They will not be able to get any rating as there will be issues so they won't be submitting their games. Movie companies do the same thing. If they think their movie won't get good reviews they just don't allow reviewers to review it until it's actually released.
And I'm sorry, I have huge problems with many posters on this forum and what they think "good game design" is. And as the range of what these people want is so wide, you are just going to get arguments.
If you can pull off a rating then great. However, I don't think it will have any meaning in the end for the reasons I said above.
Well if the certification system was to use generic aspects like performance, stability, and user confidentiality and security it coudl actually work. Not all companies are SOX certified, I'm betting even if there was an universal certification system, many games wouldn not be included. Like many other certifications, this would be for games that can 'afford' to get themselves certified. A well respected certification is clear indication that a product has something going for it.
Need more like cetirfied games, In order for a game to be able to put the seal on a game, It would have to pass certian requirements of beta test to a panel of judges that would look for content and system requirements. would have to rule out fun, as there can't be an opinion. I guess microsoft may have something like that, but I think it's more like asking mircosoft to sponser them reguardless if there good or not, in fact I think AoC is one of them, so no credibility there, it's more of a money thing no matter how good a game is !! Microsoft is more like Nascar, if you give us some money will put Dr. Pepper of the side of our car.
THAT really needs to happen.
-Not too many bugs
-Recommended and required System requirements are actually factual
-Is there RMT or not? Be honest, EQ / EQ2 and now SWG has it, but SoE will pretend it's not RMT when it is
-Is it F2P or not, when it's only F2P for a few zones and the rest you have to pay, then it's not F2P is it.
Kind of the things like this I want to know about before I buy the game.
MS has the Games For Windows, but AoC was on the list and was still pretty bugged at release so I don't know how to trust that initiative really.
Need more like cetirfied games, In order for a game to be able to put the seal on a game, It would have to pass certian requirements of beta test to a panel of judges that would look for content and system requirements. would have to rule out fun, as there can't be an opinion. I guess microsoft may have something like that, but I think it's more like asking mircosoft to sponser them reguardless if there good or not, in fact I think AoC is one of them, so no credibility there, it's more of a money thing no matter how good a game is !! Microsoft is more like Nascar, if you give us some money will put Dr. Pepper of the side of our car.
Page, I like your line of thought. Quite a brilliant idea, actually.
Game certification is definitely something I want to see. The certification could be something like what we see in the business world, SOX, JSOX and so forth. The criteria could be stability, security and performance. These are criteria that can be graded objectively, and if a developer gets all of these three on the money, I am fairly sure the game design can not be too far off the mark either.
Taht's a better idea but it's still not going to work.
If a game company runs out of money they will need to release "no matter what". They will not be able to get any rating as there will be issues so they won't be submitting their games. Movie companies do the same thing. If they think their movie won't get good reviews they just don't allow reviewers to review it until it's actually released.
And I'm sorry, I have huge problems with many posters on this forum and what they think "good game design" is. And as the range of what these people want is so wide, you are just going to get arguments.
If you can pull off a rating then great. However, I don't think it will have any meaning in the end for the reasons I said above.
I agree with you that a certification system would be good. Such a measure in time might give publishers the incentive to make their products fit for release.
I also agree that design issues are things that are beyond the scope of this sort of group being proposed here. But to me, there are far more important things to resolve, like:
1) The scope of the publisher's prerogative to change the game post-release.
2) The limits of EULAs.
3) The scope of the publisher's prerogative to dismiss or ban subscribers, and what restitution players are able to receive.
4) Billing and customer service standards.
5) Longevity issues (how long the games ought to last).
6) Measures to prevent scams like D&L and Age of Mourning.
7) Accessability issues (players with disabilities, the issues surrounding voice chat in games)
8) Real money transactions and virtual property.
These are just a few examples of non-design, non-creative issues that players face today, and will become more important in the future.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Maybe we all need a Game Players Union, think about it, companies such as Funcom, SoE and Turbine to just name a few have it all over us when it comes to our rights and what we should expect when we spend our money on their games. I remember when buying a game and registering your purchase, use to mean that you had the right to complain and report bugs, these days we don't even have those rights anymore, it really has become,"Give us your money, sit down shut up and play, you got anything nice to say, put it in the forum, got anything bad or anything else to say then shut up or go away or be banned or expelled." Add to this the false advertising, hyping and incompleteness of games upon release, then there is the false promises of great or greater things to come. Add on top of all this the duel company faces of," Hi, your a valued customer and a possible illegal copyright breaching and Eula breaking game pirate who is selling gold and trolling our forums to make mischief at the company,( sorry we mean Players) expense!" Some ideas about how the union would work and what it could offer to players who join. A complete list of game standards and categories that a game company would need to come up to or complete before they could get a gameplayers union approval. a approval list of games that the union would support and that members could trust with there credit card details, and of course a list of game companies that should not be trusted. This idea could give us the ability to re-balance our rights and voice, over what our money will get us when we purchase a new game. What do you all think, do we or should we have a Game players Union and if so, how should it work or what could it do for us?
*Please try and stick to the topic and try not to re-live old game company nightmares, unless it's part of an exsample, also No soap boxes please, thank you*
oh god no. Especially since this just seems to be a vehicle to get what a small amount of players want but not necessarily what "I" want. I have seen so many posts on these forums and quite frankly my idea of what entertainment is doesn't really gel with what many players on these particular forums want. And since you vote with your dollars it seems to me that there is already a system in place to help guide companies. our wallets. Sorry, not interested. If I see a game I like I'll try it. If I don't like it I'll move on to something else.
I can see it already. The leaders of this group at worst getting kick backs from gaming companies and at least pushing forward only their own agendas of what they themselves want MMO's to be like and ignoring other peoples views. Also how would this little organization gain it's funding? Why would gaming companies and players as a whole take them at all serious when this is just a hobby experience and not a way of life for the vast majority of players. Ugggh.....who the hell would be dumb enough to pay union dues, extra taxes or any fee to keep this thing going? I sure as hell wouldn't because I don't take MMO's that serious. Frankly I rather reward companies that have MMO's that I like with a subscription and ignore those who have nothing I like. Also no game company in it's right mind would give away it's freedom to alter their game in any fashion or close it down to a group made up of non-industry professionals. In the end you rent to play a MMO but you don't own it. If you don't like it you can always cancel your subscription and move on.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Sooner or later, there is going to be a Congressional hearing on the legal status of virtual property ownership in MMOs. You can be pretty sure that Smed will be there. Microsoft will be there too. IGE will be there, as well as Linden. But who is going to be there for the players? Who is going to talk about the different perspectives (plural, mind you) that players possess about this sort of thing?
And what about scams? Do you know how easy it is these days to create an MMO scam, and how effective it can be? The scams are so easy to do, they look like legit games in every way, with official forums, screenshots, beta tests, participation in gaming conferences, and the like. The scams are so good, that the people here at MMORPG.com cannot tell the difference between scams and legit games..until it's too late. If the folks who run this website cannot tell which game is a scam and which isn't, how are players supposed to be able to research and tell the difference?
Yes, it's a hobby. It's a pasttime. It isn't as important as world peace, but it is important enough to all of us here that we want our pasttime to grow and thrive just as much (if not moreso) than the publishing and development houses want it to thrive.
But getting burned by scams, unfinished buggy software, wholesale redesigns post-launch, potentially slimy things like RMT and pre-order perks, draconian refund policies, and fly-by-night operations isn't making our hobby enjoyable. In fact, it's ruining it. Seeing how the publishers and development houses aren't doing anything to fix it, someone has to. Otherwise, we may not have our hobby for much longer.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
something formed by uniting two or more things; combination.
4.
a number of persons, states, etc., joined or associated together for some common purpose: student union; credit union.
this the top four meanings of Union out of fourteen, from Dictionary.com ,what ever we call it, I think it should start with the word," International "
-What type of games & media, It should also not just cover MMORPG's and MMO's, Singleplayer, RTS, etc it should also cover console games, mobliephone, PDA and PPC games as well, pretty much all forms of electronic gaming media.
-What type of website, It should be a strict no nonsense, union website for legit claims and reviews only and voting by members only, type of union site, this would also be why we wouldn't want to use MMORPG.com,(mmorpg.com is a nice fun place were we all can come to hang out and relax, be updated on the latest games and chat awhile.(ok maybe it's like fight club... sometimes)
-leadership and corruption,ok I really don't think there is any foolproof way to stop corruption from taking root in any organization, so like the rest of the world we will have to find away of dealing with it when and if, it ever happens in our organization.
Beatnik59, You have some great idea's and make some valid points, thank you, please keep 'em coming, also do you have any idea's about how we could start something like this?
-I would like to say that I'm very happy with the way everyone has posted valid and important points, I can say that no one yet has really posted anything stupid or repulsive, it kinda shows that we can all talk about a topic, without it turning to the darkside of stupidity, thank you all, keep'em coming as well.
It's gotta start somewhere, why not here.
p.s. sorry if my post is a bit short, i got a nice dose of da'cold in da'nose and in my head to match.
Originally posted by altairzq So why MMO is the only industry in the world where you actually have to be able to make the same thing you are buying to have the possibility to defend your rights as a consumer?
You are over-assuming. All I'm suggesting is that you use empathy and think about the producer for once. It takes years of work and millions of dollars to make a good MMOG - and it's very risky too.
Let me remind you what you wrote, and conveniently deleted from the quote:
Originally posted by Mackerni
Game Players Union?
What is this, US vs THEM? Sounds really silly to me. The fact is, you don’t even know what it’s like to make a video game – not to mention a MMOG, until you’re the one making it. MMOGs are the hardest games to develop, because not only do they require the most content of all video games, but you have to host them on your own servers after you’re finished with it. Let’s see you make a MMOG company and try to deal with all the shit you’ll have to face afterwards.
Next time you buy a car that doesn't work as promised... think about how much it takes to design and create a car and don't use the guarantee or call the consumers association, ok?
Originally posted by altairzq So why MMO is the only industry in the world where you actually have to be able to make the same thing you are buying to have the possibility to defend your rights as a consumer?
You are over-assuming. All I'm suggesting is that you use empathy and think about the producer for once. It takes years of work and millions of dollars to make a good MMOG - and it's very risky too.
Let me remind you what you wrote, and conveniently deleted from the quote:
Originally posted by Mackerni
Next time you buy a car that doesn't work as promised... think about how much it takes to design and create a car and don't use the guarantee or call the consumers association, ok?
Game Players Union?
What is this, US vs THEM? Sounds really silly to me. The fact is, you don’t even know what it’s like to make a video game – not to mention a MMOG, until you’re the one making it. MMOGs are the hardest games to develop, because not only do they require the most content of all video games, but you have to host them on your own servers after you’re finished with it. Let’s see you make a MMOG company and try to deal with all the shit you’ll have to face afterwards.
Ok guy's, please stop with the quotation's at each other over and over, someone's going to lose an eye!
I do understand what altairzq was trying to get at, If I had to hazard a guess, I think is that the dev's will become the one's in the middle between the union and the companyline, the small independent developers would most likely find support from the union in the form of volunteer helpers and beta testers, even training and business advice even legal information, the union would more likely be dealing with the bigger guns in the industry when it come to player protection, arbitration, reviews of game services, etc...
please remember, I'm just hazarding a guess at this.
I didn't even get through the first page, but it's real simple...don't buy a game when it first comes out. Wait at least a month to hear how people like it. It's really that simple.
nethervoid - Est. '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1 20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
I didn't even get through the first page, but it's real simple...don't buy a game when it first comes out. Wait at least a month to hear how people like it. It's really that simple.
Ok, but what about if you got banned without warning and the gamesite wouldn't answer any of your questions or even acknowledge you at all, what then?
Absolutely no need for one. The market quickly tells bad producers we don't like your game and we are not going to play it. Unions are needed in some environments, but the free market punishes bad gamer producers now, what is a union going to do? Sorry just a very bad idea.
In any other industry, my continued enjoyment of the goods I purchase isn't contingent on the producer's financial success. For example, my Oldsmobile didn't disappear when Oldsmobile closed its doors. I can still enjoy it today, because my continued enjoyment of it is not contingent on whether Oldsmobile succeeds or not.
An individual's continued enjoyment of the things he or she purchases in this medium isn't contingent on an individual's willingness to pay. For it may very well be the case that the people who bought and paid for Asheron's Call 2 wanted to continue to enjoy their software. They can't though, because there weren't enough people who purchased the game for it to remain viable.
Unlike other transactions, players here are not the disinterested parties that classical market economics assumes. That's because we cannot afford to be disinterested, if we are to continue to gain the benefit of the goods we purchase.
That's why we have very legitimate and rational reasons to want a greater voice in this industry beyond the market: because when the market gets involved, players suffer. The industry also suffers, since consumer confidence takes a hit whenever a cancellation or disagreeable change takes place.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Here's a "ruff" idea. Everyone needs to stop buying every damn mmo put out. People need to stop setting expectations at statospheric levels.
The best thing you can is do some research before plunging into an mmo and vote with your wallet. If more people would do this developers would get the hint that crappy unfinished games aren't going to fly.
Instead we get rabid fans plunging millions down on games like AoC and Vanguard...games CLEARLY not ready to be put on any shelf when they were released.
Beatnik59, You have some great idea's and make some valid points, thank you, please keep 'em coming, also do you have any idea's about how we could start something like this?
You have to incorporate and register as a non-profit organization in your state. It's a rather simple procedure, but essential if the organization is to operate on behalf of the membership.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
If we want to start this I strongly suggest that we begin with covering a small sphere of the gaming industry. MMOs for example And then maybe expand into other areas at a later point. To cover all forms of gaming media from scratch just sounds too overwhelming for me at least.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
Originally posted by Beatnik59 Sooner or later, there is going to be a Congressional hearing on the legal status of virtual property ownership in MMOs. You can be pretty sure that Smed will be there. Microsoft will be there too. IGE will be there, as well as Linden. But who is going to be there for the players? Who is going to talk about the different perspectives (plural, mind you) that players possess about this sort of thing? And what about scams? Do you know how easy it is these days to create an MMO scam, and how effective it can be? The scams are so easy to do, they look like legit games in every way, with official forums, screenshots, beta tests, participation in gaming conferences, and the like. The scams are so good, that the people here at MMORPG.com cannot tell the difference between scams and legit games..until it's too late. If the folks who run this website cannot tell which game is a scam and which isn't, how are players supposed to be able to research and tell the difference? Yes, it's a hobby. It's a pasttime. It isn't as important as world peace, but it is important enough to all of us here that we want our pasttime to grow and thrive just as much (if not moreso) than the publishing and development houses want it to thrive. But getting burned by scams, unfinished buggy software, wholesale redesigns post-launch, potentially slimy things like RMT and pre-order perks, draconian refund policies, and fly-by-night operations isn't making our hobby enjoyable. In fact, it's ruining it. Seeing how the publishers and development houses aren't doing anything to fix it, someone has to. Otherwise, we may not have our hobby for much longer.
Yeah right congressional hearings on gold farming...Wow if that ever happens I would vote out any member of congress from my State who went along with that stupid ass idea and wasted my tax dollars on that meeting. I can safely say that 95%-99% of the US population would be seriously pissed off at the wasting of our tax dollars on what amounts to pointless nerd rage internet issues.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Comments
I don't like the term "union" for this, since it's more of a non-for-profit advocacy group. I can see it doing the following things:
--Policy crafting: Educating policy makers on the issues we players face, and work with lawmakers to craft legislation designed to protect the consumer and build the genre (I personally think the two go hand in hand).
--Public awareness: Educating we consumers about issues that may fall under the radar, or be obscured (EULAs and our rights, class-action lawsuits and their resolution, how to protect ourselves from scams).
--Industry awareness: Educating the MMO development and publishing houses about player concerns and preferences. After all, both theplayers and the publishers ultimately want the same things: to build a fun and safe industry.
--Research group: Engaging in research about what players want, and how well their preferences are being met by the industry. Publishing 'white papers' and similar studies as a thinktank should.
--Networking resourse: Allows us to coordinate our efforts state-by-state, region-by region so that we are all on the same page, and pooling our resources and efforts.
--Discount club, benefits package for members: Maybe discounts on subscriptions, box prices, beta keys, free trials, or swag as a perk of belonging to the organization. The size of a players organization like this will naturally attract publishers looking for a large audience (think AAA motor club membership discounts, or NRA discounts, etc.).
I think it is high time for something like this, and if it is successful at doing the above things, should be very successful.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Motorcycling is a voluntary hobby, yet there are issues this hobby faces (helmet laws, insurance issues, off-road usage, etc.) That's why you have the AMA.
Gun ownership is a voluntary matter, yet there are issues that gun owners face. That's why you have the NRA.
Recreational fishing is a hobby, but there are issues that recreational fishers face. That's why you have the recreational fishing alliance.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Comes to "our rights"? What the hell? "Our rights" as a consumers are to buy the game and play it. Nowhere on the box does it guarantee that you will enjoy the game.
Games are entertainment media, so judging the quality of a game can not be objective. I might like WoW, where as you might hate it. There is no way to create a gradedlist of games that can be applied universally. This sounds like a terrible idea, then.
In fact, gaming unions such as you describe already exist. I would argue that the 'special interest groups of the internet', vocal online communities, already provide their members with the 'services' you've listed. You might even go as far as arguing MMORPG.com is a 'GPU'.
Now to be frank, I hate this sort of self-righteous consumer advocatism. You are just like the people who actually eat at KFC and then throw a fit when the uneducated pot-head teen who cooked their meal has made a mess of things. If you want a quality meal, do not eat at KFC. If you want a quality game, do some research and look for a game that is right for you.
I'm very much against this typ of 'jump to the barricades' sort of activism. Most of the heartaches can be avoided by actually doing some research and being generally well informed about the gaming industry.
The quality of AoC was evident at release. We, the beta testers were more than happy to share our thoughts on the game.
oh god no.
Especially since this just seems to be a vehicle to get what a small amount of players want but not necessarily what "I" want. I have seen so many posts on these forums and quite frankly my idea of what entertainment is doesn't really gel with what many players on these particular forums want.
And since you vote with your dollars it seems to me that there is already a system in place to help guide companies. our wallets.
Sorry, not interested. If I see a game I like I'll try it. If I don't like it I'll move on to something else.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Need more like cetirfied games,
In order for a game to be able to put the seal on a game, It would have to pass certian requirements of beta test to a panel of judges that would look for content and system requirements. would have to rule out fun, as there can't be an opinion.
I guess microsoft may have something like that, but I think it's more like asking mircosoft to sponser them reguardless if there good or not, in fact I think AoC is one of them, so no credibility there, it's more of a money thing no matter how good a game is !!
Microsoft is more like Nascar, if you give us some money will put Dr. Pepper of the side of our car.
You are over-assuming. All I'm suggesting is that you use empathy and think about the producer for once. It takes years of work and millions of dollars to make a good MMOG - and it's very risky too.
'Voting with the wallet' is a far more antagonistic, destructive, and ineffective solution to player problems than it needs to be. It's antagonistic because it influences the industry only by severing oneself from it. It is destructive because it can only grow the industry by starving it. It is ultimately ineffective, because :
1) The MMO publisher has already profited from you before you even create an account.
2) If you are cancelling, chances are the game wasn't marketed to you anyway, making you superfluous.
3) The player is the ultimate loser, since their software is now useless.
4) Mass cancellations kill games.
5) Mass dead games kill industries.
6) How do dead industries and dead games serve we who like MMOs?
We should be working to build this industry, not destroy it. And ultimately, that's why a "G.P.U." is a very good thing for both the players and the game publishers. Because when we work together, we can prevent mass-cancellations, bad word of mouth, and make the games more satisfying to both the publishers and the players.
That being said, we shouldn't be industry patsys. Nothing constructive has come from the shills and managed communities of official boards. Working together means respecting each other as equal partners; not as inconsequential consumers to be fed whatever the publishers want.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Page, I like your line of thought. Quite a brilliant idea, actually.
Game certification is definitely something I want to see. The certification could be something like what we see in the business world, SOX, JSOX and so forth. The criteria could be stability, security and performance. These are criteria that can be graded objectively, and if a developer gets all of these three on the money, I am fairly sure the game design can not be too far off the mark either.
Page, I like your line of thought. Quite a brilliant idea, actually.
Game certification is definitely something I want to see. The certification could be something like what we see in the business world, SOX, JSOX and so forth. The criteria could be stability, security and performance. These are criteria that can be graded objectively, and if a developer gets all of these three on the money, I am fairly sure the game design can not be too far off the mark either.
Taht's a better idea but it's still not going to work.
If a game company runs out of money they will need to release "no matter what". They will not be able to get any rating as there will be issues so they won't be submitting their games. Movie companies do the same thing. If they think their movie won't get good reviews they just don't allow reviewers to review it until it's actually released.
And I'm sorry, I have huge problems with many posters on this forum and what they think "good game design" is. And as the range of what these people want is so wide, you are just going to get arguments.
If you can pull off a rating then great. However, I don't think it will have any meaning in the end for the reasons I said above.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Page, I like your line of thought. Quite a brilliant idea, actually.
Game certification is definitely something I want to see. The certification could be something like what we see in the business world, SOX, JSOX and so forth. The criteria could be stability, security and performance. These are criteria that can be graded objectively, and if a developer gets all of these three on the money, I am fairly sure the game design can not be too far off the mark either.
Taht's a better idea but it's still not going to work.
If a game company runs out of money they will need to release "no matter what". They will not be able to get any rating as there will be issues so they won't be submitting their games. Movie companies do the same thing. If they think their movie won't get good reviews they just don't allow reviewers to review it until it's actually released.
And I'm sorry, I have huge problems with many posters on this forum and what they think "good game design" is. And as the range of what these people want is so wide, you are just going to get arguments.
If you can pull off a rating then great. However, I don't think it will have any meaning in the end for the reasons I said above.
Well if the certification system was to use generic aspects like performance, stability, and user confidentiality and security it coudl actually work. Not all companies are SOX certified, I'm betting even if there was an universal certification system, many games wouldn not be included. Like many other certifications, this would be for games that can 'afford' to get themselves certified. A well respected certification is clear indication that a product has something going for it.
THAT really needs to happen.
-Not too many bugs
-Recommended and required System requirements are actually factual
-Is there RMT or not? Be honest, EQ / EQ2 and now SWG has it, but SoE will pretend it's not RMT when it is
-Is it F2P or not, when it's only F2P for a few zones and the rest you have to pay, then it's not F2P is it.
Kind of the things like this I want to know about before I buy the game.
MS has the Games For Windows, but AoC was on the list and was still pretty bugged at release so I don't know how to trust that initiative really.
Page, I like your line of thought. Quite a brilliant idea, actually.
Game certification is definitely something I want to see. The certification could be something like what we see in the business world, SOX, JSOX and so forth. The criteria could be stability, security and performance. These are criteria that can be graded objectively, and if a developer gets all of these three on the money, I am fairly sure the game design can not be too far off the mark either.
Taht's a better idea but it's still not going to work.
If a game company runs out of money they will need to release "no matter what". They will not be able to get any rating as there will be issues so they won't be submitting their games. Movie companies do the same thing. If they think their movie won't get good reviews they just don't allow reviewers to review it until it's actually released.
And I'm sorry, I have huge problems with many posters on this forum and what they think "good game design" is. And as the range of what these people want is so wide, you are just going to get arguments.
If you can pull off a rating then great. However, I don't think it will have any meaning in the end for the reasons I said above.
I agree with you that a certification system would be good. Such a measure in time might give publishers the incentive to make their products fit for release.
I also agree that design issues are things that are beyond the scope of this sort of group being proposed here. But to me, there are far more important things to resolve, like:
1) The scope of the publisher's prerogative to change the game post-release.
2) The limits of EULAs.
3) The scope of the publisher's prerogative to dismiss or ban subscribers, and what restitution players are able to receive.
4) Billing and customer service standards.
5) Longevity issues (how long the games ought to last).
6) Measures to prevent scams like D&L and Age of Mourning.
7) Accessability issues (players with disabilities, the issues surrounding voice chat in games)
8) Real money transactions and virtual property.
These are just a few examples of non-design, non-creative issues that players face today, and will become more important in the future.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I can see it already. The leaders of this group at worst getting kick backs from gaming companies and at least pushing forward only their own agendas of what they themselves want MMO's to be like and ignoring other peoples views. Also how would this little organization gain it's funding? Why would gaming companies and players as a whole take them at all serious when this is just a hobby experience and not a way of life for the vast majority of players. Ugggh.....who the hell would be dumb enough to pay union dues, extra taxes or any fee to keep this thing going? I sure as hell wouldn't because I don't take MMO's that serious. Frankly I rather reward companies that have MMO's that I like with a subscription and ignore those who have nothing I like. Also no game company in it's right mind would give away it's freedom to alter their game in any fashion or close it down to a group made up of non-industry professionals. In the end you rent to play a MMO but you don't own it. If you don't like it you can always cancel your subscription and move on.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
Sooner or later, there is going to be a Congressional hearing on the legal status of virtual property ownership in MMOs. You can be pretty sure that Smed will be there. Microsoft will be there too. IGE will be there, as well as Linden. But who is going to be there for the players? Who is going to talk about the different perspectives (plural, mind you) that players possess about this sort of thing?
And what about scams? Do you know how easy it is these days to create an MMO scam, and how effective it can be? The scams are so easy to do, they look like legit games in every way, with official forums, screenshots, beta tests, participation in gaming conferences, and the like. The scams are so good, that the people here at MMORPG.com cannot tell the difference between scams and legit games..until it's too late. If the folks who run this website cannot tell which game is a scam and which isn't, how are players supposed to be able to research and tell the difference?
Yes, it's a hobby. It's a pasttime. It isn't as important as world peace, but it is important enough to all of us here that we want our pasttime to grow and thrive just as much (if not moreso) than the publishing and development houses want it to thrive.
But getting burned by scams, unfinished buggy software, wholesale redesigns post-launch, potentially slimy things like RMT and pre-order perks, draconian refund policies, and fly-by-night operations isn't making our hobby enjoyable. In fact, it's ruining it. Seeing how the publishers and development houses aren't doing anything to fix it, someone has to. Otherwise, we may not have our hobby for much longer.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
this the top four meanings of Union out of fourteen, from Dictionary.com ,what ever we call it, I think it should start with the word," International "
-What type of games & media, It should also not just cover MMORPG's and MMO's, Singleplayer, RTS, etc it should also cover console games, mobliephone, PDA and PPC games as well, pretty much all forms of electronic gaming media.
-What type of website, It should be a strict no nonsense, union website for legit claims and reviews only and voting by members only, type of union site, this would also be why we wouldn't want to use MMORPG.com,(mmorpg.com is a nice fun place were we all can come to hang out and relax, be updated on the latest games and chat awhile.
(ok maybe it's like fight club... sometimes)
-leadership and corruption, ok I really don't think there is any foolproof way to stop corruption from taking root in any organization, so like the rest of the world we will have to find away of dealing with it when and if, it ever happens in our organization.
Beatnik59, You have some great idea's and make some valid points, thank you, please keep 'em coming, also do you have any idea's about how we could start something like this?
-I would like to say that I'm very happy with the way everyone has posted valid and important points, I can say that no one yet has really posted anything stupid or repulsive, it kinda shows that we can all talk about a topic, without it turning to the darkside of stupidity, thank you all, keep'em coming as well.
It's gotta start somewhere, why not here.
p.s. sorry if my post is a bit short, i got a nice dose of da'cold in da'nose and in my head to match.
You are over-assuming. All I'm suggesting is that you use empathy and think about the producer for once. It takes years of work and millions of dollars to make a good MMOG - and it's very risky too.
Let me remind you what you wrote, and conveniently deleted from the quote:
Originally posted by Mackerni
Game Players Union?
What is this, US vs THEM? Sounds really silly to me. The fact is, you don’t even know what it’s like to make a video game – not to mention a MMOG, until you’re the one making it. MMOGs are the hardest games to develop, because not only do they require the most content of all video games, but you have to host them on your own servers after you’re finished with it. Let’s see you make a MMOG company and try to deal with all the shit you’ll have to face afterwards.
Next time you buy a car that doesn't work as promised... think about how much it takes to design and create a car and don't use the guarantee or call the consumers association, ok?
You are over-assuming. All I'm suggesting is that you use empathy and think about the producer for once. It takes years of work and millions of dollars to make a good MMOG - and it's very risky too.
Let me remind you what you wrote, and conveniently deleted from the quote:
Originally posted by Mackerni
Next time you buy a car that doesn't work as promised... think about how much it takes to design and create a car and don't use the guarantee or call the consumers association, ok?
Game Players Union?
What is this, US vs THEM? Sounds really silly to me. The fact is, you don’t even know what it’s like to make a video game – not to mention a MMOG, until you’re the one making it. MMOGs are the hardest games to develop, because not only do they require the most content of all video games, but you have to host them on your own servers after you’re finished with it. Let’s see you make a MMOG company and try to deal with all the shit you’ll have to face afterwards.
Ok guy's, please stop with the quotation's at each other over and over, someone's going to lose an eye!
I do understand what altairzq was trying to get at, If I had to hazard a guess, I think is that the dev's will become the one's in the middle between the union and the companyline, the small independent developers would most likely find support from the union in the form of volunteer helpers and beta testers, even training and business advice even legal information, the union would more likely be dealing with the bigger guns in the industry when it come to player protection, arbitration, reviews of game services, etc...
please remember, I'm just hazarding a guess at this.
I didn't even get through the first page, but it's real simple...don't buy a game when it first comes out. Wait at least a month to hear how people like it. It's really that simple.
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
Ok, but what about if you got banned without warning and the gamesite wouldn't answer any of your questions or even acknowledge you at all, what then?
Absolutely no need for one. The market quickly tells bad producers we don't like your game and we are not going to play it.
Unions are needed in some environments, but the free market punishes bad gamer producers now, what is a union going to do? Sorry just a very bad idea.
In any other industry, my continued enjoyment of the goods I purchase isn't contingent on the producer's financial success. For example, my Oldsmobile didn't disappear when Oldsmobile closed its doors. I can still enjoy it today, because my continued enjoyment of it is not contingent on whether Oldsmobile succeeds or not.
An individual's continued enjoyment of the things he or she purchases in this medium isn't contingent on an individual's willingness to pay. For it may very well be the case that the people who bought and paid for Asheron's Call 2 wanted to continue to enjoy their software. They can't though, because there weren't enough people who purchased the game for it to remain viable.
Unlike other transactions, players here are not the disinterested parties that classical market economics assumes. That's because we cannot afford to be disinterested, if we are to continue to gain the benefit of the goods we purchase.
That's why we have very legitimate and rational reasons to want a greater voice in this industry beyond the market: because when the market gets involved, players suffer. The industry also suffers, since consumer confidence takes a hit whenever a cancellation or disagreeable change takes place.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Here's a "ruff" idea. Everyone needs to stop buying every damn mmo put out. People need to stop setting expectations at statospheric levels.
The best thing you can is do some research before plunging into an mmo and vote with your wallet. If more people would do this developers would get the hint that crappy unfinished games aren't going to fly.
Instead we get rabid fans plunging millions down on games like AoC and Vanguard...games CLEARLY not ready to be put on any shelf when they were released.
You have to incorporate and register as a non-profit organization in your state. It's a rather simple procedure, but essential if the organization is to operate on behalf of the membership.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
If we want to start this I strongly suggest that we begin with covering a small sphere of the gaming industry. MMOs for example
And then maybe expand into other areas at a later point. To cover all forms of gaming media from scratch just sounds too overwhelming for me at least.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
Yeah right congressional hearings on gold farming...Wow if that ever happens I would vote out any member of congress from my State who went along with that stupid ass idea and wasted my tax dollars on that meeting. I can safely say that 95%-99% of the US population would be seriously pissed off at the wasting of our tax dollars on what amounts to pointless nerd rage internet issues.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)