Well for starters, how about a death penalty? No death penalty = fps. A death penalty could easily be implemented, but it's a soft MMO so it most likely won't happen.
I don't see how an actual war as advertised would "alienate" the community. Blizzard has alienated a lot of its pvp with their controled instances and grabass ctf games. Where's the war?
The developers do not care what people want. They want to optimize the game for banking. Not for pleasing the community. It's about keeping people addicted by tossing gear rewards in you have to grind for, not for having an enjoyable enviroment. When I realized this I left. When I realized the war wasn't happening outside of the minigames I realized what a joke WoW is.
From a personal perspective, the only thing that a death penalty would do in this game is punish new players as you only tend to die a lot when you are just learning the game. If you are on your 2nd, 3rd, 10th toon it is very rare that you die in the normal course of play anyway, so i don;t see what it would add to the game, in fact the only people i can see it annoying would be the raiders & PvP'ers anyway???
True that there has never been a 'war' as such in the game, even though some attempts at showing one have been put in from time to time, but again we need to wait and see what they do with this new open PvP area because if that is done well it could restore the feeling of us and them again.
I am a little annoyed about your last statement as you contradict yourself, as in another thread you complain that 'carebears' have ruined the game with their moaning and forcing Blizzard to make the changed that they way, which would mean that Blizzard do actually listen to their players and you can't have it both ways?? Again i would ask if you have ever actually taken part in any testing and supplied feedback or sent any suggestions in to the devs at any point because unless you are telling them what you want then they don't really have a chance to even consider it do they??
As for having an enjoyable environment, any MMO is what you make it and you will only get out of it what you put in for the most part. I enjoy the social aspects of the game far more than anything else and the 'perfect build' or 'tier kit' is a secondary consideration at best for me, but again it really depends on your gameplay perspective.
A death penalty adds some risk into going forth with pvp. No death penalty? Just a bunch of people suiciding into eachother much like an FPS. IMO it adds excitement and a risk and reward for pvp.
Lol. The new "open PvP area" I'll tell you right now what that's going to be and mark my words here.
We know how Blizzard does "world pvp" The new pvp area will be a worthless pit out in the middle of nowhere. It will be far from questers cause we wouldn't want the poor babies questing experience interfered with on "PvP" server during a supposed war. It will be secluded and hold no real weight in the world besides getting a couple pieces of gear. After 2 months it will be a ghost town just like Halaa, EPL, and the other failed Control PVP areas Blizzard has attempted. People want a war to interfere with other people. Not play in controled playgrounds.
About my carebear statement. What I said was Blizzard listens to the bank, and most likely they bent over and softened the game cause carebears came to a pvp server, got owned, then canceled their account crying about being pvped on a pvp server. The only comments Blizzard is going to listen to are those on the account cancelation page.
Agreed on your final statement.
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
Originally posted by Malvolentia Lol. The new "open PvP area" I'll tell you right now what that's going to be and mark my words here.We know how Blizzard does "world pvp" The new pvp area will be a worthless pit out in the middle of nowhere. It will be far from questers cause we wouldn't want the poor babies questing experience interfered with on "PvP" server during a supposed war. It will be secluded and hold no real weight in the world besides getting a couple pieces of gear. After 2 months it will be a ghost town just like Halaa, EPL, and the other failed Control PVP areas Blizzard has attempted.About my carebear statement. What I said was Blizzard listens to the bank, and most likely they bent over and softened the game cause carebears came to a pvp server, got owned, then canceled their account crying about being pvped on a pvp server. The only comments Blizzard is going to listen to are those on the account cancelation page. Agreed on your final statement.
Well i will mark your words, but in the same token it would be nice to drop back when it is in to reprise this convo. As for a for a worthless pit in the middle of nowhere, they have already said it is a whole area about the size of Westfall smack in the middle of the continent, so that pretty much covers your first thoughts i think.
Again you contradict, because now you are saying that they only listen when people close their accounts and they lose money, yet you have closed your account along with countless others you would have us believe because of these changes yet you claim to have not been listened to???? Throw us a bone here!
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
To all who post here to just bash on Wow and Wow-users ! : I would like them to stop posting.... on a WOW forum. You ALL played Wow for 6 months to 2 years or whatever until you got tired of it. But YOU played it and long. This has NOTHING to do with Wow: you are burned out and btw the game after patch 2.3 just got better and better in its end game. Period. All those S H IT spawning from these guys just doesn't make sense, because they don't play it anymore and no longer have fun, So they think those who do like it are morons, so they laugh at people who enjoy Wow. You have to look at some of these posts HOW personal these guys get. Sickening really. While the ONLY things they do is type MILES of text just to prove to themselves they don't like the game. Well get over it MILLIONS in the western world like it and millions will like it even more after WotLK and the REAL open world Siege PvP Conan lacked. And MMORPG's have NOTHING to do with the food industry either. Let the Director of Conan make a fool of himself, but be a little more intelligent than this guy. What would YOU think of a Director of BMW stating that Ford was a MacDonalds car. ))
Every game has flaws, to be a non-fanboi/hater you have to see objectively the good and bad of a game. It's always good to debate the deficiencies/proficiencies of a game without getting personal. If you haven't said anything good about a game or anything bad for that matter u probably fall into one of the above categories, because no game is perfect or all bad (although I'm sure there are ones that come close....)
Personally, wow has been a milestone in MMORPG development for me but a step back in massive PvP development in an MMORPG vs DAOC.
Hmm, I manage to have a full brutal set and a nice PvE setup (Tier 6) while only playing for around two hours a day on average, I actually enjoy arena, and spend no time in battlegrounds. But hey, maybe that's because I know what I'm doing.
More likely you're a Rogue.
I'm sick of WOW's craptastic pvp. I can't wait for the DAoC Server to open.
Wrong, I'm a druid AND I'm balance for PvP, resto for PvE.
Well i will mark your words, but in the same token it would be nice to drop back when it is in to reprise this convo. As for a for a worthless pit in the middle of nowhere, they have already said it is a whole area about the size of Westfall smack in the middle of the continent, so that pretty much covers your first thoughts i think.
Again you contradict, because now you are saying that they only listen when people close their accounts and they lose money, yet you have closed your account along with countless others you would have us believe because of these changes yet you claim to have not been listened to???? Throw us a bone here!
Sorry I don't understand what you're trying to say here? I never contradicted myself. What I said was the only thing the developers listen to is what's on the account cancelation page. I think you were trying to say otherwise.
I'm just one person with an opinion on the game. Do I expect them to change the game around just for me? No. What I said was the reason the game became so soft is to help all the whiners that couldn't manage on a pvp server. Which we saw. DKs, Instanced pvp, endless spawning guards, no loot off city bosses, etc..
I don't expect them to change the game for me. I just left the game.
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
Originally posted by templarga What dictates what happens in WOW is the casual player. Period. Do you think WOW has so many subs because all of those players are hardcore pvp'ers or raiders even? Nope, they are casuals. They play 1-2 hours a night. The largest age bracket is late 20s or 30s. WOW's numbers are what they are because they made a game that anyone can approach and enjoy. it is not complicated or hard to play; it is simply fun. Perfect, no? But just fun.The problem, to me, is that Blizzard is now trying to make the game everything for everyone. Instead of focusing on one major area of MMOs, they are trying to make the game enjoyable and perfect for all playstyles: pve, pvp, raiders, arena (Battle.net) players, etc.... I think they are spreading theirselves too thin across all of these areas.
On your first point, that was mine too, that it is the casuals who keep the game going and that is why the game has developed in the way it has in all areas like quick BG's for PvP, smaller raid numbers and so on..
On your second point, as you said it is what has made WoW such a success across the whole MMO community, in that it does not do one thing exceptionally at the expense of everything else but all things reasonably well.
The only game on the market at the moment that does meet the demands of all players while still employing an open ended style with a good risk vs reward system is EVE, it is just a shame it employs such a restrictive character and training system (ie only able to train one character at a time) along with such massive travel times, otherwise it could give all other games a run for their money.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
There is one general reason: missing of general MMO concept. In most details WoW is great, but as game at all its too weak for me.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
Hmm, I manage to have a full brutal set and a nice PvE setup (Tier 6) while only playing for around two hours a day on average You can't raid and do arena in only 2 hours, if that's really true I'll congratulate you , I actually enjoy arena, Good for you I guess and spend no time in battlegrounds. That's because you're not a new player, this thread is dedicated to new players. If you were running around in quest items you'd have to spend countless hours in BG in order to get pvp honor items IN ORDER TO even be able to compete in arena But hey, maybe that's because I know what I'm doing. And perhaps because you're a douche
I played WoW from release and 3 years after that. Nothing is fun forever and when you realise you aren't having fun anymore you can start to analays why that is. For me it was the fact that the sense of a community was non-existant. WoW had the worst mmo community ever from the mmos I've played, and I've tried about half of the games on the list to your left. The thing in WoW is that blizzard no longer seem to care about making the game fun, they only seem to be interested in getting people to stay but without the means you'd want to see, for example the whole honor system is one big screwup, once you hit 70 now you're like "oh now it's bg time again" and you play those godawful bgs until your eyes bleed. when you've gotten all the honor gear you're ready to compete in arena, or atleast try because most will have better gear than you (you will notice this if you roll an alt or are a new player). The arena is also one big grind where setup,spec and gear weighs in the most.
Pre-TBC you PvEd in order to kick ass in PvP. You could compete vs other players with the gear gained for raids. Now in TBC you get better at PvEing from PvEing which kinda defeats the purpose since every new instance scales with the gear you gain. So in theory you're still on the same step of the ladder since the roof keeps getting higher, you just manage to stay at the managable level of it.
WoW is in my oppinion a soulless beast with the worst community i've ever experienced. Blizzard managed to make it very addictive tho. I logged in for two months doing nothing but BG:s and hating every minute of it. Execpt when you got that crappy purple item after X-k honor, fantastic. Then i finally quit the damn game. Today I caught myself pondering if I'm gonna try the new x-pac Wotlk, then I just say one word to myself, battlegrounds. That usually puts me off the thought of ever playing WoW again.
Originally posted by Malvolentia 1. Battlegrounds - be prepared to spend most of your life in here if you even want to try and compete. There's a massive world that goes ignored while 90% of players are in here lookin for gear. 2. Arenas - A failed attempt at an Electronic sport. Even most players hate it. Blizzard won't give it up so it's left as the major focus of the game. Forget raiding Orgrimmar or Stormwind! hop in this cage for endless hours.
I also dislike Battlegrounds and Arenas, but i still play WoW-- for raiding!
Lol. The new "open PvP area" I'll tell you right now what that's going to be and mark my words here. We know how Blizzard does "world pvp" The new pvp area will be a worthless pit out in the middle of nowhere. It will be far from questers cause we wouldn't want the poor babies questing experience interfered with on "PvP" server during a supposed war. It will be secluded and hold no real weight in the world besides getting a couple pieces of gear. After 2 months it will be a ghost town just like Halaa, EPL, and the other failed Control PVP areas Blizzard has attempted. People want a war to interfere with other people. Not play in controled playgrounds.
I see. So it's only good PvP when you can grief someone. You people are all alike. You try to mask it real well, but in the end all you are really concerned with is ruining someone else's play experience. I'm actually quite glad that Blizzard doesn't listen to people like you.
I've never been griefed in my life, because I'm cautious of it and even when it happens I don't let it bother me, everyone has only themselves to blame. And I still play Ultima Online on a free shard with old rules where real griefing happens, not these new MMOs where griefing means "three guys killed me (but I just respawned and only lost some xp...)"
I've never been griefed in my life, because I'm cautious of it and even when it happens I don't let it bother me, everyone has only themselves to blame for taking it so seriously and giving the griefers what they want. And I still play Ultima Online on a free shard with old rules where real griefing happens.
But all these "XXX mmo sucks" threads are silly, because pretty much all mmos suck not just a few. They're all pretty much the same, every once and awhile you find one that you like for some superficial reason and stick with it until you finally get bored, while the companies suck in absurd amounts of money.
I've never been griefed in my life, because I'm cautious of it and even when it happens I don't let it bother me, everyone has only themselves to blame. And I still play Ultima Online on a free shard with old rules where real griefing happens, not these new MMOs where griefing means "three guys killed me (but I just respawned and only lost some xp...)"
I've never been griefed in my life...and even when it happens....
So which is it? Either you have been griefed or you haven't. Whether or not you get upset about it has nothing to do with the intention. The act of griefing does not cause grief, it's an ATTEMPT to cause grief. Whether or not it succeeds is irrelevent.
I don't let griefers get to me either. That doesn't mean I want a game designed to encourage griefing. There's no reason you can't design a game that allows for LOTS of different types of play styles. WoW does a very good job of this. Some people would have Blizzard FORCE people to play a particular style that THEY enjoy. I like the way Blizzard does it. It ALLOWS for PvP, but doesn't punish those who attempt to avoid it.
If I'm attacked by someone that I have a decent chance of killing, I'll stand and fight and tip my hat to him if he kills me. On the other hand if I get attacked by someone 3 or 4 levels above me, while engaged and my health is at 50% already...well I just can't be bothered with those people. I'll just die, rez and escape thank you very much. I get as much enjoyment out of escaping this person as I do a win in a fair fight...maybe even more.
Personally I thought the best pvp they had though a bit unsteady due to being released after the game went live by a few months or whatever, was when Av first came out . It did feel epic in a sense IMO clashing in the field of strife for 12 hours was the way I thought it should have been. But even then people complained it took to long and blahh blahh.
That was the whole point it was two factions going at it for supremacy. But noooo everyone wanted to be able to get 20 av's in in the 25 mins online every night or whatever. I think av should have been treated like the plans for public quests in WAR that would have been a much better design plan imo. reward people for comming and going for what amount of dps they do or how many npc's they kill and so on. But nope blizz went the way of grind fest and what did we end up with 5 minute races to kill the boss.(GO KILL ONY if you want just boss kills.) But W/E I'm not ranting just stating a design flaw that could have been taken in a more healthy way for the game as a whole yet blizz seemed to take the short path on pvp.(again and again since the addition of bg's and so forth)and went all out on the PVE side to what avail. Now more people are in bg's grinding gear then raids it seems. I cant attest to that but it sure feels like it when all activity in the world seems to mob around battle masters.
I think that once they made the decision to add pvp/bg's/areanas that the focus on all development should have been split between the two so that both grew as close to evenly as would be apropriate but it seems like the pvp gets no love.
Nerfs and changes and nothing new persay.Give me 10 times the honor for killing someone in open pvp that might stimulate the world pvp and energy a bit or something. Even another type of point system to record such a thing so I could get diferent gear indicating that I will kill you in the wilderness if given the opertunity.
Anywho just trying to kill time at work but thought i would toss in a tid bit.
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
I've never been griefed in my life, because I'm cautious of it and even when it happens I don't let it bother me, everyone has only themselves to blame. And I still play Ultima Online on a free shard with old rules where real griefing happens, not these new MMOs where griefing means "three guys killed me (but I just respawned and only lost some xp...)"
I've never been griefed in my life...and even when it happens....
So which is it? Either you have been griefed or you haven't. Whether or not you get upset about it has nothing to do with the intention. The act of griefing does not cause grief, it's an ATTEMPT to cause grief. Whether or not it succeeds is irrelevent.
I don't let griefers get to me either. That doesn't mean I want a game designed to encourage griefing. There's no reason you can't design a game that allows for LOTS of different types of play styles. WoW does a very good job of this. Some people would have Blizzard FORCE people to play a particular style that THEY enjoy. I like the way Blizzard does it. It ALLOWS for PvP, but doesn't punish those who attempt to avoid it.
If I'm attacked by someone that I have a decent chance of killing, I'll stand and fight and tip my hat to him if he kills me. On the other hand if I get attacked by someone 3 or 4 levels above me, while engaged and my health is at 50% already...well I just can't be bothered with those people. I'll just die, rez and escape thank you very much. I get as much enjoyment out of escaping this person as I do a win in a fair fight...maybe even more.
Well said.
The first time we will see organised open world PvP in a structured way of "some" balanced classes in an MMORPG will be WotLK.
Dark Age of Camelot had SOOOO much issues with the balancing of classes they had to call it a RvR system, because as a team based PvP system the game was a laugh in play balance.
Tx to Arena,... Blizzard at least gave a decent try to balance something in 3vs3 and 5vs5. More just can't be done in an MMORPG, but at the same time this Arena study will at least result in a better class balance in open world fights IF the rules and balancing techniques will be further finalized by Blizz.
Some say there are "only" 4 BG's in Wow with a 5th coming out in WotLK, but the "polishment" and play value of these BG's are constantly tweaked.
And IF you are a really hardened PvP player you LOVE Arena. If you don't love it, you are just a ganker of low levels in Strangleton Vale and the Crossroads.
No merits or rewards by Blizzard on that kind of playing style and justly so!
Actually, if griefing doesn't cause grief why would it be called griefing. That's like saying someone is angering me but I'm not angry. Doesn't make sense. So he did have a point, although it's semantics :P
I do agree DAOC was extremely unbalanced, and in WOW arena helped iron out "some" of the kinks in balance for small groups.
I liked arena when it first came out but it gets boring as the only form or serious PvP sides the 4 BGs. World PvP is too scarce. No massive feel to it, everything endgame is instanced. One more BG? LOL. That's pathetic.
Why did they wait 4 years to add a PvP structured zone? That's just sad.
Arena would be better if they let you be in more than one team then at least you could spend time with different teams when different people are on.
As for running away from griefing, if you're lower level and don't have an epic mount/flyer you can't really run away if they camp.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Zorndorf[/i] [b][quote][i]Originally posted by Pappy13[/i] [quote][i]Originally posted by UncertaintyP[/i] Normal 0 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 I've never been griefed in my life, because I'm cautious of it and even when it happens I don't let it bother me, everyone has only themselves to blame. And I still play Ultima Online on a free shard with old rules where real griefing happens, not these new MMOs where griefing means "three guys killed me (but I just respawned and only lost some xp...)" /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} Normal 0 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} I've never been griefed in my life...and even when it happens.... [/quote] So which is it? Either you have been griefed or you haven't. Whether or not you get upset about it has nothing to do with the intention. The act of griefing does not cause grief, it's an ATTEMPT to cause grief. Whether or not it succeeds is irrelevent. I don't let griefers get to me either. That doesn't mean I want a game designed to encourage griefing. There's no reason you can't design a game that allows for LOTS of different types of play styles. WoW does a very good job of this. Some people would have Blizzard FORCE people to play a particular style that THEY enjoy. I like the way Blizzard does it. It ALLOWS for PvP, but doesn't punish those who attempt to avoid it. If I'm attacked by someone that I have a decent chance of killing, I'll stand and fight and tip my hat to him if he kills me. On the other hand if I get attacked by someone 3 or 4 levels above me, while engaged and my health is at 50% already...well I just can't be bothered with those people. I'll just die, rez and escape thank you very much. I get as much enjoyment out of escaping this person as I do a win in a fair fight...maybe even more. [/quote] Well said. The first time we will see [u]organised open world PvP [/u]in a [u]structured [/u]way of "[u]some" balanced [/u]classes in an MMORPG will be WotLK. Dark Age of Camelot had SOOOO much issues with the balancing of classes they had to call it a RvR system, because as a team based PvP system the game was a laugh in [u]play balance[/u]. Tx to Arena,... Blizzard at least gave a decent [u]try to balance [/u]something in 3vs3 and 5vs5. More just can't be done in an MMORPG, but at the same time this Arena study will at least result in a better class balance in open world fights IF the rules and balancing techniques will be further finalized by Blizz. Some say there are "only" 4 BG's in Wow with a 5th coming out in WotLK, but the "polishment" and play value of these BG's are constantly tweaked. And IF you are a really hardened PvP player you LOVE Arena.
I can not agree with only this part of what you say and below only cause it is not possible for a newer player just hitting 70 's or w/e and enjoying anything about going against a season 3 geared person. No matter what lvl of player skill he has he will be anialated for just exsisting near the same space as the geared person.That in my opinion is where blizz messed up badly but with rading gear and such they had no choice. So in essence the nail was in the coffin from the get go.. I just cant understand why they went in such a hardened lineare path.
I personnally think they shot themselves in the foot cause soon you will get the EvE mentality of why bother starting now Ill never catch up. I tryed a few arenas and did not like it but I am sure that had to do with the fact that I was not in game for season 1and 2. So comming into the game to face gear that could kill me without anyone's avatar even being in it made it pointless to the point that I only log in to toss a few spells and see the pretty pixels now. 99% of the time im in bg's now I barely pay attention and only do it to try to make myself believe that I do want all the bullcraptastic gear.(till something better comes along)
If you don't love it, you are just a ganker of low levels in Strangleton Vale and the Crossroads. No merits or rewards by Blizzard on that kind of playing style and justly so!
For your information I had some of the best times in the game at Crossroads and the vale.(in my 20's-30's)(somewhat remotely similar to fighting for spawns in UO) I can recall some pretty damn good fights happening back in the day in the world pvp spectrum.Once i hit 50 I was all instances back then for XP. That or Bg's for rank...
Its sad I remember thinking before WoW came out I can't wait to burn down a town as WAS advertised to be in game.(Alas It didnt happen)
[/b][/quote][/quote][/quote]
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
Actually, if griefing doesn't cause grief why would it be called griefing. That's like saying someone is angering me but I'm not angry. Doesn't make sense. So he did have a point, although it's semantics :P As for running away from griefing, if you're lower level and don't have an epic mount/flyer you can't really run away if they camp.
Because they are attempting to grief you. Saying someone is angering you means that you are angered. If you are not angered, then they are not angering you. But you're talking about your reaction to what they are doing, not what they are doing which regardless is the same.
The same is true in WoW. They are called griefers not because of how you react to them, but rather what they expect to accomplish. They could be doing any one of 10 million things that griefers do to try to get you upset. The only thing that matters to them is the end result of you being upset. That is why they are called griefers, because they are trying to cause you grief. It doesn't matter if they actually succeed or not, that's still what they are attempting to do. Someone who tries to grief you and fails does not become a non griefer, they are just a poor griefer.
Well there are lots of ways to avoid a griefer. If you have some kind of stealth you can use that. If you don't there are potions that will stealth you. If you don't have that available, you have a fair bit of real estate with which you can rez and attempt to sneak away unnoticed. If they are a hunter for example and none of the above will work you can simply wait them out. Very few griefers will wait around for very long if you don't rez. and will run off to look for another person to prey on. And if none of that will work you can always switch to your level 70 hunter and camp their butt for awhile which is my favorite option.
people complain about them never adding anything new, remember for a few months after the game came out there wasnt even a pvp system for rewards or anything, or even battleground....and lets not forget hardcore raiding didnt even start till MC was released months after release... and all they have done is keep adding more stuff like that to keep people playing and feed their addiction
people complain about them never adding anything new, remember for a few months after the game came out there wasnt even a pvp system for rewards or anything, or even battleground....and lets not forget hardcore raiding didnt even start till MC was released months after release... and all they have done is keep adding more stuff like that to keep people playing and feed their addiction
Yup you said it....."feed their addiction". That's why you have the posting like the OP.
Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands? ~Ernest Gaines
people complain about them never adding anything new, remember for a few months after the game came out there wasnt even a pvp system for rewards or anything, or even battleground....and lets not forget hardcore raiding didnt even start till MC was released months after release... and all they have done is keep adding more stuff like that to keep people playing and feed their addiction
MC was in at release. The following was taken from the patch notes of release 1.2 which was the very first patch released on 12/18/04.
"If you die in Molten Core, you will now be able to retrieve your corpse at the Blackrock Depths instance line. "
If MC was not in at release, how did they manage to patch it in the very first patch?
Actually, if griefing doesn't cause grief why would it be called griefing. That's like saying someone is angering me but I'm not angry. Doesn't make sense. So he did have a point, although it's semantics :P As for running away from griefing, if you're lower level and don't have an epic mount/flyer you can't really run away if they camp.
Because they are attempting to grief you. Saying someone is angering you means that you are angered. If you are not angered, then they are not angering you. But you're talking about your reaction to what they are doing, not what they are doing which regardless is the same.
The same is true in WoW. They are called griefers not because of how you react to them, but rather what they expect to accomplish. They could be doing any one of 10 million things that griefers do to try to get you upset. The only thing that matters to them is the end result of you being upset. That is why they are called griefers, because they are trying to cause you grief. It doesn't matter if they actually succeed or not, that's still what they are attempting to do. Someone who tries to grief you and fails does not become a non griefer, they are just a poor griefer.
Well there are lots of ways to avoid a griefer. If you have some kind of stealth you can use that. If you don't there are potions that will stealth you. If you don't have that available, you have a fair bit of real estate with which you can rez and attempt to sneak away unnoticed. If they are a hunter for example and none of the above will work you can simply wait them out. Very few griefers will wait around for very long if you don't rez. and will run off to look for another person to prey on. And if none of that will work you can always switch to your level 70 hunter and camp their butt for awhile which is my favorite option.
Still doesn't make sense to me, since there is no "official" definition hard to say which of you is right. If your definition is right then the word is a misnomer. For instance, a killer only is called one he kills another dead. If the person doesn't die he isn't a killer.
Thus a more valid argument about "griefer" would be if he griefed someone else before.
Most griefers just patrol the same area and if ur still questing there when they come back they just kill you again.
The thing I hate most is the raiding so I don't take part. I just do the parts of the game I still tolerate. I would love to see 5man versions of all the raid dungeons I don't care if they lower the loot I just want to see some new stuff. My life does not revolve around the gear my toon has it is just a game nothing more nothing less.
Comments
From a personal perspective, the only thing that a death penalty would do in this game is punish new players as you only tend to die a lot when you are just learning the game. If you are on your 2nd, 3rd, 10th toon it is very rare that you die in the normal course of play anyway, so i don;t see what it would add to the game, in fact the only people i can see it annoying would be the raiders & PvP'ers anyway???
True that there has never been a 'war' as such in the game, even though some attempts at showing one have been put in from time to time, but again we need to wait and see what they do with this new open PvP area because if that is done well it could restore the feeling of us and them again.
I am a little annoyed about your last statement as you contradict yourself, as in another thread you complain that 'carebears' have ruined the game with their moaning and forcing Blizzard to make the changed that they way, which would mean that Blizzard do actually listen to their players and you can't have it both ways?? Again i would ask if you have ever actually taken part in any testing and supplied feedback or sent any suggestions in to the devs at any point because unless you are telling them what you want then they don't really have a chance to even consider it do they??
As for having an enjoyable environment, any MMO is what you make it and you will only get out of it what you put in for the most part. I enjoy the social aspects of the game far more than anything else and the 'perfect build' or 'tier kit' is a secondary consideration at best for me, but again it really depends on your gameplay perspective.
A death penalty adds some risk into going forth with pvp. No death penalty? Just a bunch of people suiciding into eachother much like an FPS. IMO it adds excitement and a risk and reward for pvp.
Lol. The new "open PvP area" I'll tell you right now what that's going to be and mark my words here.
We know how Blizzard does "world pvp" The new pvp area will be a worthless pit out in the middle of nowhere. It will be far from questers cause we wouldn't want the poor babies questing experience interfered with on "PvP" server during a supposed war. It will be secluded and hold no real weight in the world besides getting a couple pieces of gear. After 2 months it will be a ghost town just like Halaa, EPL, and the other failed Control PVP areas Blizzard has attempted. People want a war to interfere with other people. Not play in controled playgrounds.
About my carebear statement. What I said was Blizzard listens to the bank, and most likely they bent over and softened the game cause carebears came to a pvp server, got owned, then canceled their account crying about being pvped on a pvp server. The only comments Blizzard is going to listen to are those on the account cancelation page.
Agreed on your final statement.
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
McDonald's: over 1 billion burgers served
Well i will mark your words, but in the same token it would be nice to drop back when it is in to reprise this convo. As for a for a worthless pit in the middle of nowhere, they have already said it is a whole area about the size of Westfall smack in the middle of the continent, so that pretty much covers your first thoughts i think.
Again you contradict, because now you are saying that they only listen when people close their accounts and they lose money, yet you have closed your account along with countless others you would have us believe because of these changes yet you claim to have not been listened to???? Throw us a bone here!
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Every game has flaws, to be a non-fanboi/hater you have to see objectively the good and bad of a game. It's always good to debate the deficiencies/proficiencies of a game without getting personal. If you haven't said anything good about a game or anything bad for that matter u probably fall into one of the above categories, because no game is perfect or all bad (although I'm sure there are ones that come close....)
Personally, wow has been a milestone in MMORPG development for me but a step back in massive PvP development in an MMORPG vs DAOC.
More likely you're a Rogue.
I'm sick of WOW's craptastic pvp. I can't wait for the DAoC Server to open.
Wrong, I'm a druid AND I'm balance for PvP, resto for PvE.
Well i will mark your words, but in the same token it would be nice to drop back when it is in to reprise this convo. As for a for a worthless pit in the middle of nowhere, they have already said it is a whole area about the size of Westfall smack in the middle of the continent, so that pretty much covers your first thoughts i think.
Again you contradict, because now you are saying that they only listen when people close their accounts and they lose money, yet you have closed your account along with countless others you would have us believe because of these changes yet you claim to have not been listened to???? Throw us a bone here!
Sorry I don't understand what you're trying to say here? I never contradicted myself. What I said was the only thing the developers listen to is what's on the account cancelation page. I think you were trying to say otherwise.
I'm just one person with an opinion on the game. Do I expect them to change the game around just for me? No. What I said was the reason the game became so soft is to help all the whiners that couldn't manage on a pvp server. Which we saw. DKs, Instanced pvp, endless spawning guards, no loot off city bosses, etc..
I don't expect them to change the game for me. I just left the game.
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
McDonald's: over 1 billion burgers served
Well well well... another discussion of why WoW sucks...where do I begin?
Purpose in life is not to gain things, but experience. - Rover64dd
On your first point, that was mine too, that it is the casuals who keep the game going and that is why the game has developed in the way it has in all areas like quick BG's for PvP, smaller raid numbers and so on..
On your second point, as you said it is what has made WoW such a success across the whole MMO community, in that it does not do one thing exceptionally at the expense of everything else but all things reasonably well.
The only game on the market at the moment that does meet the demands of all players while still employing an open ended style with a good risk vs reward system is EVE, it is just a shame it employs such a restrictive character and training system (ie only able to train one character at a time) along with such massive travel times, otherwise it could give all other games a run for their money.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
There is one general reason: missing of general MMO concept. In most details WoW is great, but as game at all its too weak for me.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
I played WoW from release and 3 years after that. Nothing is fun forever and when you realise you aren't having fun anymore you can start to analays why that is. For me it was the fact that the sense of a community was non-existant. WoW had the worst mmo community ever from the mmos I've played, and I've tried about half of the games on the list to your left. The thing in WoW is that blizzard no longer seem to care about making the game fun, they only seem to be interested in getting people to stay but without the means you'd want to see, for example the whole honor system is one big screwup, once you hit 70 now you're like "oh now it's bg time again" and you play those godawful bgs until your eyes bleed. when you've gotten all the honor gear you're ready to compete in arena, or atleast try because most will have better gear than you (you will notice this if you roll an alt or are a new player). The arena is also one big grind where setup,spec and gear weighs in the most.
Pre-TBC you PvEd in order to kick ass in PvP. You could compete vs other players with the gear gained for raids. Now in TBC you get better at PvEing from PvEing which kinda defeats the purpose since every new instance scales with the gear you gain. So in theory you're still on the same step of the ladder since the roof keeps getting higher, you just manage to stay at the managable level of it.
WoW is in my oppinion a soulless beast with the worst community i've ever experienced. Blizzard managed to make it very addictive tho. I logged in for two months doing nothing but BG:s and hating every minute of it. Execpt when you got that crappy purple item after X-k honor, fantastic. Then i finally quit the damn game. Today I caught myself pondering if I'm gonna try the new x-pac Wotlk, then I just say one word to myself, battlegrounds. That usually puts me off the thought of ever playing WoW again.
Just airwalking.
has anyone mentioned yet the community for a reason WoW blows?
sucks because i will be avoiding WAR most likely, as that seems to be where the pre-teen wow crowd will be heading
I also dislike Battlegrounds and Arenas, but i still play WoW-- for raiding!
I see. So it's only good PvP when you can grief someone. You people are all alike. You try to mask it real well, but in the end all you are really concerned with is ruining someone else's play experience. I'm actually quite glad that Blizzard doesn't listen to people like you.
I've never been griefed in my life, because I'm cautious of it and even when
it happens I don't let it bother me, everyone has only themselves to blame. And
I still play Ultima Online on a free shard with old rules where real griefing
happens, not these new MMOs where griefing means "three guys killed me
(but I just respawned and only lost some xp...)"
I've never been griefed in my life, because I'm cautious of it and even when it happens I don't let it bother me, everyone has only themselves to blame for taking it so seriously and giving the griefers what they want. And I still play Ultima Online on a free shard with old rules where real griefing happens.
But all these "XXX mmo sucks" threads are silly, because pretty much all mmos suck not just a few. They're all pretty much the same, every once and awhile you find one that you like for some superficial reason and stick with it until you finally get bored, while the companies suck in absurd amounts of money.
So which is it? Either you have been griefed or you haven't. Whether or not you get upset about it has nothing to do with the intention. The act of griefing does not cause grief, it's an ATTEMPT to cause grief. Whether or not it succeeds is irrelevent.
I don't let griefers get to me either. That doesn't mean I want a game designed to encourage griefing. There's no reason you can't design a game that allows for LOTS of different types of play styles. WoW does a very good job of this. Some people would have Blizzard FORCE people to play a particular style that THEY enjoy. I like the way Blizzard does it. It ALLOWS for PvP, but doesn't punish those who attempt to avoid it.
If I'm attacked by someone that I have a decent chance of killing, I'll stand and fight and tip my hat to him if he kills me. On the other hand if I get attacked by someone 3 or 4 levels above me, while engaged and my health is at 50% already...well I just can't be bothered with those people. I'll just die, rez and escape thank you very much. I get as much enjoyment out of escaping this person as I do a win in a fair fight...maybe even more.
Personally I thought the best pvp they had though a bit unsteady due to being released after the game went live by a few months or whatever, was when Av first came out . It did feel epic in a sense IMO clashing in the field of strife for 12 hours was the way I thought it should have been. But even then people complained it took to long and blahh blahh.
That was the whole point it was two factions going at it for supremacy. But noooo everyone wanted to be able to get 20 av's in in the 25 mins online every night or whatever. I think av should have been treated like the plans for public quests in WAR that would have been a much better design plan imo. reward people for comming and going for what amount of dps they do or how many npc's they kill and so on. But nope blizz went the way of grind fest and what did we end up with 5 minute races to kill the boss.(GO KILL ONY if you want just boss kills.) But W/E I'm not ranting just stating a design flaw that could have been taken in a more healthy way for the game as a whole yet blizz seemed to take the short path on pvp.(again and again since the addition of bg's and so forth)and went all out on the PVE side to what avail. Now more people are in bg's grinding gear then raids it seems. I cant attest to that but it sure feels like it when all activity in the world seems to mob around battle masters.
I think that once they made the decision to add pvp/bg's/areanas that the focus on all development should have been split between the two so that both grew as close to evenly as would be apropriate but it seems like the pvp gets no love.
Nerfs and changes and nothing new persay.Give me 10 times the honor for killing someone in open pvp that might stimulate the world pvp and energy a bit or something. Even another type of point system to record such a thing so I could get diferent gear indicating that I will kill you in the wilderness if given the opertunity.
Anywho just trying to kill time at work but thought i would toss in a tid bit.
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
So which is it? Either you have been griefed or you haven't. Whether or not you get upset about it has nothing to do with the intention. The act of griefing does not cause grief, it's an ATTEMPT to cause grief. Whether or not it succeeds is irrelevent.
I don't let griefers get to me either. That doesn't mean I want a game designed to encourage griefing. There's no reason you can't design a game that allows for LOTS of different types of play styles. WoW does a very good job of this. Some people would have Blizzard FORCE people to play a particular style that THEY enjoy. I like the way Blizzard does it. It ALLOWS for PvP, but doesn't punish those who attempt to avoid it.
If I'm attacked by someone that I have a decent chance of killing, I'll stand and fight and tip my hat to him if he kills me. On the other hand if I get attacked by someone 3 or 4 levels above me, while engaged and my health is at 50% already...well I just can't be bothered with those people. I'll just die, rez and escape thank you very much. I get as much enjoyment out of escaping this person as I do a win in a fair fight...maybe even more.
Well said.
The first time we will see organised open world PvP in a structured way of "some" balanced classes in an MMORPG will be WotLK.
Dark Age of Camelot had SOOOO much issues with the balancing of classes they had to call it a RvR system, because as a team based PvP system the game was a laugh in play balance.
Tx to Arena,... Blizzard at least gave a decent try to balance something in 3vs3 and 5vs5. More just can't be done in an MMORPG, but at the same time this Arena study will at least result in a better class balance in open world fights IF the rules and balancing techniques will be further finalized by Blizz.
Some say there are "only" 4 BG's in Wow with a 5th coming out in WotLK, but the "polishment" and play value of these BG's are constantly tweaked.
And IF you are a really hardened PvP player you LOVE Arena. If you don't love it, you are just a ganker of low levels in Strangleton Vale and the Crossroads.
No merits or rewards by Blizzard on that kind of playing style and justly so!
Actually, if griefing doesn't cause grief why would it be called griefing. That's like saying someone is angering me but I'm not angry. Doesn't make sense. So he did have a point, although it's semantics :P
I do agree DAOC was extremely unbalanced, and in WOW arena helped iron out "some" of the kinks in balance for small groups.
I liked arena when it first came out but it gets boring as the only form or serious PvP sides the 4 BGs. World PvP is too scarce. No massive feel to it, everything endgame is instanced. One more BG? LOL. That's pathetic.
Why did they wait 4 years to add a PvP structured zone? That's just sad.
Arena would be better if they let you be in more than one team then at least you could spend time with different teams when different people are on.
As for running away from griefing, if you're lower level and don't have an epic mount/flyer you can't really run away if they camp.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Zorndorf[/i] [b][quote][i]Originally posted by Pappy13[/i] [quote][i]Originally posted by UncertaintyP[/i] Normal 0 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 I've never been griefed in my life, because I'm cautious of it and even when it happens I don't let it bother me, everyone has only themselves to blame. And I still play Ultima Online on a free shard with old rules where real griefing happens, not these new MMOs where griefing means "three guys killed me (but I just respawned and only lost some xp...)" /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} Normal 0 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} I've never been griefed in my life...and even when it happens.... [/quote] So which is it? Either you have been griefed or you haven't. Whether or not you get upset about it has nothing to do with the intention. The act of griefing does not cause grief, it's an ATTEMPT to cause grief. Whether or not it succeeds is irrelevent. I don't let griefers get to me either. That doesn't mean I want a game designed to encourage griefing. There's no reason you can't design a game that allows for LOTS of different types of play styles. WoW does a very good job of this. Some people would have Blizzard FORCE people to play a particular style that THEY enjoy. I like the way Blizzard does it. It ALLOWS for PvP, but doesn't punish those who attempt to avoid it. If I'm attacked by someone that I have a decent chance of killing, I'll stand and fight and tip my hat to him if he kills me. On the other hand if I get attacked by someone 3 or 4 levels above me, while engaged and my health is at 50% already...well I just can't be bothered with those people. I'll just die, rez and escape thank you very much. I get as much enjoyment out of escaping this person as I do a win in a fair fight...maybe even more. [/quote] Well said. The first time we will see [u]organised open world PvP [/u]in a [u]structured [/u]way of "[u]some" balanced [/u]classes in an MMORPG will be WotLK. Dark Age of Camelot had SOOOO much issues with the balancing of classes they had to call it a RvR system, because as a team based PvP system the game was a laugh in [u]play balance[/u]. Tx to Arena,... Blizzard at least gave a decent [u]try to balance [/u]something in 3vs3 and 5vs5. More just can't be done in an MMORPG, but at the same time this Arena study will at least result in a better class balance in open world fights IF the rules and balancing techniques will be further finalized by Blizz. Some say there are "only" 4 BG's in Wow with a 5th coming out in WotLK, but the "polishment" and play value of these BG's are constantly tweaked. And IF you are a really hardened PvP player you LOVE Arena.
I can not agree with only this part of what you say and below only cause it is not possible for a newer player just hitting 70 's or w/e and enjoying anything about going against a season 3 geared person. No matter what lvl of player skill he has he will be anialated for just exsisting near the same space as the geared person.That in my opinion is where blizz messed up badly but with rading gear and such they had no choice. So in essence the nail was in the coffin from the get go.. I just cant understand why they went in such a hardened lineare path.
I personnally think they shot themselves in the foot cause soon you will get the EvE mentality of why bother starting now Ill never catch up. I tryed a few arenas and did not like it but I am sure that had to do with the fact that I was not in game for season 1and 2. So comming into the game to face gear that could kill me without anyone's avatar even being in it made it pointless to the point that I only log in to toss a few spells and see the pretty pixels now. 99% of the time im in bg's now I barely pay attention and only do it to try to make myself believe that I do want all the bullcraptastic gear.(till something better comes along)
If you don't love it, you are just a ganker of low levels in Strangleton Vale and the Crossroads. No merits or rewards by Blizzard on that kind of playing style and justly so!
For your information I had some of the best times in the game at Crossroads and the vale.(in my 20's-30's)(somewhat remotely similar to fighting for spawns in UO) I can recall some pretty damn good fights happening back in the day in the world pvp spectrum.Once i hit 50 I was all instances back then for XP. That or Bg's for rank...
Its sad I remember thinking before WoW came out I can't wait to burn down a town as WAS advertised to be in game.(Alas It didnt happen)
[/b][/quote][/quote][/quote]
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
Because they are attempting to grief you. Saying someone is angering you means that you are angered. If you are not angered, then they are not angering you. But you're talking about your reaction to what they are doing, not what they are doing which regardless is the same.
The same is true in WoW. They are called griefers not because of how you react to them, but rather what they expect to accomplish. They could be doing any one of 10 million things that griefers do to try to get you upset. The only thing that matters to them is the end result of you being upset. That is why they are called griefers, because they are trying to cause you grief. It doesn't matter if they actually succeed or not, that's still what they are attempting to do. Someone who tries to grief you and fails does not become a non griefer, they are just a poor griefer.
Well there are lots of ways to avoid a griefer. If you have some kind of stealth you can use that. If you don't there are potions that will stealth you. If you don't have that available, you have a fair bit of real estate with which you can rez and attempt to sneak away unnoticed. If they are a hunter for example and none of the above will work you can simply wait them out. Very few griefers will wait around for very long if you don't rez. and will run off to look for another person to prey on. And if none of that will work you can always switch to your level 70 hunter and camp their butt for awhile which is my favorite option.
people complain about them never adding anything new, remember for a few months after the game came out there wasnt even a pvp system for rewards or anything, or even battleground....and lets not forget hardcore raiding didnt even start till MC was released months after release... and all they have done is keep adding more stuff like that to keep people playing and feed their addiction
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Yup you said it....."feed their addiction". That's why you have the posting like the OP.
Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands? ~Ernest Gaines
MC was in at release. The following was taken from the patch notes of release 1.2 which was the very first patch released on 12/18/04.
"If you die in Molten Core, you will now be able to retrieve your corpse at the Blackrock Depths instance line. "
If MC was not in at release, how did they manage to patch it in the very first patch?
Because they are attempting to grief you. Saying someone is angering you means that you are angered. If you are not angered, then they are not angering you. But you're talking about your reaction to what they are doing, not what they are doing which regardless is the same.
The same is true in WoW. They are called griefers not because of how you react to them, but rather what they expect to accomplish. They could be doing any one of 10 million things that griefers do to try to get you upset. The only thing that matters to them is the end result of you being upset. That is why they are called griefers, because they are trying to cause you grief. It doesn't matter if they actually succeed or not, that's still what they are attempting to do. Someone who tries to grief you and fails does not become a non griefer, they are just a poor griefer.
Well there are lots of ways to avoid a griefer. If you have some kind of stealth you can use that. If you don't there are potions that will stealth you. If you don't have that available, you have a fair bit of real estate with which you can rez and attempt to sneak away unnoticed. If they are a hunter for example and none of the above will work you can simply wait them out. Very few griefers will wait around for very long if you don't rez. and will run off to look for another person to prey on. And if none of that will work you can always switch to your level 70 hunter and camp their butt for awhile which is my favorite option.
Still doesn't make sense to me, since there is no "official" definition hard to say which of you is right. If your definition is right then the word is a misnomer. For instance, a killer only is called one he kills another dead. If the person doesn't die he isn't a killer.
Thus a more valid argument about "griefer" would be if he griefed someone else before.
Most griefers just patrol the same area and if ur still questing there when they come back they just kill you again.
The thing I hate most is the raiding so I don't take part. I just do the parts of the game I still tolerate. I would love to see 5man versions of all the raid dungeons I don't care if they lower the loot I just want to see some new stuff. My life does not revolve around the gear my toon has it is just a game nothing more nothing less.