ya know i thin honestly we forget how much WOW left out that they promised when it came out due to its huge success short after. Prob cause its been so long ago since its release.
"Besides the content removed what does this say about the game?"
It says that Mythic cares more about pleasing their shareholders in the short term than the long term.
It says that EA is applying a lot of pressure from the top to get the job done, and that to the suits in the glass tower an incomplete launch is preferable to a further delayed launch.
It says that, somewhere along the way, despite all the hype and PR spin that has been flowing out of this game for over a year, the idea of a quality product was lost. This might not be AoC all over again, but the purity and hope that people had come to associate with this title is now either gone or severely depressed.
I'm sorry, but this is just a disgusting, wretched misstep. 2/6 cities at launch in an RvR game whose central focus is the ultimate contest to sieze said cities?
Perhaps even more startling is the news about the classes. What MMO doesn't start working on the classes first? That should be priority-one when design starts, particularly since the classes are, obviously, what the customer is going to have the most contact and interaction with during their time in the game.
Most telling of all is when these announcements are being made. Here we are, maybe 2-3 months from the supposed launch, and massive blocks of content are being sliced out. Why wasn't this forseen a year or more ago? Why wasn't the planning in place to build in a launch window to accomodate desired launch goals? We're thirty feet from the finish line, and major pieces are falling off of the car.
This doesn't do much to cultivate confidence in the pit crew.
They didn't "lose" any features, they decided to hold off the creation of the other four capitols so that they could spend more time making them into something on the same level as Altdorf / Inevitable City. The classes were cut because they may have had trouble finding ways to make the new mechanics work, or just spent too much time elsewhere. Regardless there are still 20 classes to choose from. They did not "cut" and they did not "lose" any features. They are postponing content not until it is fully created but until it looks fantastic. Mark Jacobs will let half-assed classes or cities out at launch. No, this does not imply that WAR is a game on the road to disaster. It is a game on the road to excellence.
So I can play a choppa on release? No, that is a cut to me. So, you facts are being distorted a bit.
Go cut your finger off, tell me what happens.
I obviously meant they were not cut from the game permanently.
Originally posted by PureChaos While it is a let down, the game mechanics dont change because of this.
I will to defer to people more familiar with the intricacies of the game on this but how can some races losing their tanks not affect game mechanics? How can the lose of capital cities, critical elements in RvR, not affect the mechanics of RvR? This is not the normal cut the high level content as people will not be there for a month or so type thing, the things cut are things that affect all players on day one.
I'm right there with AgtSmith on this. Right there with him on this, this is an alteration of the game mechanics. There will be complications we can't begin to speculate about. My prediction is that the zones that have had their city removed, will also be removed.
Further, we have no idea how long it will take for any of this to be implemented back in. The classes may never come back. We DO know that it will be many months before we see anything, and I doubt it will be everything, else they would have delayed.
___________________ Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
I dunno, but people who complain about stuff like this, seems to me, indicate their misunderstanding of the creative, much less collaboratively creative process. Every type of media you enjoy--books, movies, music, games--undergoes tremendous amounts of editing. Often it winds up nothing like what its' creators intended. Writers speak of this when they say that characters take on lives of their own.
It should be no surprise that products created for profit--which, face it, most games are--aren't immune to the process. In fact, often they're made better, for precisely the kinds of reasons the devs mentioned.
It isn't finished. They are releasing it early just like every MMO that has ever been released besides to some degree WoW. They should push it back me thinks, but if they can pull it off bravo. Otherwise they will get exactly what they put in.
LOL:
2.4
Sunwell Plateau
Sunwell Isle
New Daily Quests
And much more
You have traveled through the Dark Portal and braved the perils of Outland; you faced off against the might of the Burning Legion itself, and you prevailed. Now the journey that began with the arrival of the draenei on Azeroth and the blood elves' inclusion into the Horde is about to come full circle as a mighty army gathers to purge evil from one of Azeroth's most important loci of power: the ancient, magical Sunwell.
2.3
Zul’Aman
Guild Banks
Faster Leveling to 60
And much more
The stronghold of Zul'Aman has stood for millennia as the Amani trolls' seat of power and bastion of the fearless, cunning warlord Zul'jin.
Zul'jin has spent several years plotting behind Zul'Aman's walls. Furious at the Horde for allowing his hated enemies, the blood elves, to join its ranks, he eagerly embraced a scheme that the witch doctor Malacrass recently proposed: to seal the power of the animal gods within the bodies of the Amani's strongest warriors.
Now Zul'Aman's army grows more powerful by the day, hungry to exact vengeance in the name of its fearless leader, Zul'jin.
2.2
Voice Chat
Mac Movie Capture
Azeroth is alive with the sound of voices. For the first time, players are able to talk to each other in game with the use of the new Voice Chat feature. Also in this patch, aspiring moviemakers can now use their Mac to capture all the in-game action and share it with their friends.
2.1
The Black Temple
Druid Epic Flight Form
Nether Drake
And much more
......
LoL I said to a degree. They had all their planned classes, and their quests and areas were very polished and fleshed out. I know there were a lot of bugs, but they delivered for the most part what they were going for close to launch.
I am in no way promoting WoW, but saying it is an anomaly. I know a lot was missing, but most MMO's are put out unfinished and could not be passed off as a shippable game by any reasonable means. WoW could, and it is the only one besides maybe LoTRO.
Way to pick one meaningless part of my post and completely derail the entire post though. You rock!
Originally posted by PureChaos While it is a let down, the game mechanics dont change because of this.
I will to defer to people more familiar with the intricacies of the game on this but how can some races losing their tanks not affect game mechanics? How can the lose of capital cities, critical elements in RvR, not affect the mechanics of RvR? This is not the normal cut the high level content as people will not be there for a month or so type thing, the things cut are things that affect all players on day one.
I'm right there with AgtSmith on this. Right there with him on this, this is an alteration of the game mechanics. There will be complications we can't begin to speculate about. My prediction is that the zones that have had their city removed, will also be removed.
yeah cause they said when they announced this that you will need to control two areas to attack the capital till they are in.
Further, we have no idea how long it will take for any of this to be implemented back in. The classes may never come back. We DO know that it will be many months before we see anything, and I doubt it will be everything, else they would have delayed.
It isn't finished. They are releasing it early just like every MMO that has ever been released besides to some degree WoW. They should push it back me thinks, but if they can pull it off bravo. Otherwise they will get exactly what they put in.
LOL:
2.4
Sunwell Plateau
Sunwell Isle
New Daily Quests
And much more
You have traveled through the Dark Portal and braved the perils of Outland; you faced off against the might of the Burning Legion itself, and you prevailed. Now the journey that began with the arrival of the draenei on Azeroth and the blood elves' inclusion into the Horde is about to come full circle as a mighty army gathers to purge evil from one of Azeroth's most important loci of power: the ancient, magical Sunwell.
2.3
Zul’Aman
Guild Banks
Faster Leveling to 60
And much more
The stronghold of Zul'Aman has stood for millennia as the Amani trolls' seat of power and bastion of the fearless, cunning warlord Zul'jin.
Zul'jin has spent several years plotting behind Zul'Aman's walls. Furious at the Horde for allowing his hated enemies, the blood elves, to join its ranks, he eagerly embraced a scheme that the witch doctor Malacrass recently proposed: to seal the power of the animal gods within the bodies of the Amani's strongest warriors.
Now Zul'Aman's army grows more powerful by the day, hungry to exact vengeance in the name of its fearless leader, Zul'jin.
2.2
Voice Chat
Mac Movie Capture
Azeroth is alive with the sound of voices. For the first time, players are able to talk to each other in game with the use of the new Voice Chat feature. Also in this patch, aspiring moviemakers can now use their Mac to capture all the in-game action and share it with their friends.
2.1
The Black Temple
Druid Epic Flight Form
Nether Drake
And much more
......
LoL I said to a degree. They had all their planned classes, and their quests and areas were very polished and fleshed out. I know there were a lot of bugs, but they delivered for the most part what they were going for close to launch.
I am in no way promoting WoW, but saying it is an anomaly. I know a lot was missing, but most MMO's are put out unfinished and could not be passed off as a shippable game by any reasonable means. WoW could, and it is the only one besides maybe LoTRO.
Way to pick one meaningless part of my post and completely derail the entire post though. You rock!
Actually he picks a very important part. No matter what you may say wow was missing things that was planed, just because it got by without them doesnt mean they didnt lie to us or w/e you want to call.
Continue that and now these features that was suppose to be in at launch are now a xpac but we forget since it was a long while ago.
Take that same logic and apply to WAR. Quests are in and work , PQ's work , technicly they didnt have all their planed classes cause hero classes was up on there, and we are just now seeing them. They changed their mind for balancing reasons remember .We have siege weapons, we have RVR we have a capital to attack we have the mechanics.
1) The capital cities are the jewel in our RvR crown. If we mess up with them, WAR will not be anywhere near as successful as it could have been. These cities are unlike any other cities in any MMO that I have seen or played. The amount of true content that revolves in and around them (and not just sticking a quest-giver NPC in a city) is unlike any other game. Both RvR and PvE happens there in a way that also has never been done in any other MMO's cities. Each city has 12 PQs and almost 100 quests (RvR and PvE) that either lead to the city, take place in the city or lead out of the city as well as 3 dungeons.
Ok, so these all improtant jewels that so exceed anything seen in other games are cut dramatically how is that not a dramatic cut to the game? Spin aside - he is talkign here about how important these things are and we are to believe it is not a major, major loss the way they are cut. And more importantly what deciding to cut so much of something he says is so important says about the commitment to a polished game at release.
2) Because we are focusing on just 2 cities, the team has been able to pour more time into each city and really make them great. They truly are living cities and what you will see and experience in them would not have been possible to do if we had to get 6 cities ready for launch even if we had a lot more time.
Meaningless spin - been there and done that before. Heard it 100 times before and never has it been true. They are not cutting B to have more time to make A great they likely have barely enough time to finish A let alone finish A and B and make either great.
3) Each CC takes a tremendous amount of time to design, iterate and release. No matter how much time we spend on the cities during development and beta, once the game is released everything changes. The history of MMOs has shown all of us that no matter how smart the developer or experienced the team, mistakes are made. Given the complexity of our cities, we can expect the same thing to happen to us.
Perhaps true - all the more reason releasing when not truly done makes doing it later even harder. Pot release they will have balance and stability and server side issues and all sorts of things pulling their attention. We are to believe that with none of these issues of live affecting them and with 5 years of work they couldn't do it but they will with added distractions and issues? BS.
4) Keeping (1) and (2) and (3) in mind, if we had made the decision to keep in all 6 cities, the chances of things going horribly wrong at launch and post-launch would have increased tremendously no matter how long we worked on them. The last thing that we would want to happen is to launch a great game but when players actually got to the city siege part, things were not working. We will not go down that path. By focusing on 2 cities, we lessen the chance of that happening considerably.
5) One of our most troubling concerns was what would happen post-launch in terms of each side's ability to take a city. Having in all 6 cities would mean that the focus of each side could have gotten distracted, the player base more spread out. If this happened, city sieges may have taken a lot longer for each side to accomplish and that would not have been pleasing to anybody. I'm reminded of the line from Jurassic Park where Jeff Goldman says "Now eventually you might have dinosaurs on your, on your dinosaur tour, right?" If players said to us "Now eventually you'll have capital city siege in your RvR game" to us, that would be very bad.
Perhaps - but only if they truly are making the rest perfect. I feel strongly saying that is unlikely because that kind of pre release perfection is simply unattainable wihtout a vibrant and diverse player base. Also hard to believe this seeing what they are willing to call done in order to release.
6) We expect over the months post-launch we will learn a lot about how our cities actually function in a truly LIVE environment. We will apply these lessons to the new cities and look at possibly rotating cities in and out of RvR to not only spice up the RvR experience but to allow us to tweak and improve the older cities. This will be both in the short- and long-run to be a major win for the players.
Is he saying that the best place to build a piece of software is in a live situation - total BS. Games that release with substantial development left to be done rarely, if ever, go anywhere good.
In the end, I'm not sorry at all that we are delaying the release of the other cities. Even if we had an unlimited budget and unlimited time and believed that we could do 6 awesome cities at launch, we know that starting with two capital cities is the best way to ensure a great experience for the players no matter whether their focus is on PvE, RvR or a combination of both.
This is pure spin to me. To believe this you have to believe that even though through 90% of the game's developmetn they though these elements where important that suddenly they are not and so get cut to make everything else better. Add in the lost classes and other stuff and it is obvious they are not concerned with quality or polish or completeness but with getting the discs in the box, rarely a good sign at all.
But to get back on my original thought - I was asking not about the specific affect this has on the game but on what it says about how they are making the game. To me it isn't a big deal because of each individual ellement it is a big deal because it is OBVIOUS this is no small cut and the reason for doing it is just to get the game to market sooner. If these elements are just slightly unfinished and adding them in is no big deal then a month or so delay would be no big deal - to announce them as cut means they are a loonnnngggg way from being done. And if that much is the case how well done and polished can the game really be?
Originally posted by PureChaos While it is a let down, the game mechanics dont change because of this.
I will to defer to people more familiar with the intricacies of the game on this but how can some races losing their tanks not affect game mechanics? How can the lose of capital cities, critical elements in RvR, not affect the mechanics of RvR? This is not the normal cut the high level content as people will not be there for a month or so type thing, the things cut are things that affect all players on day one.
They have already explained how things work now in RvR.
You have to control two of the three RvR fronts to assault the enemies capital city.
As for the tanks/melee dps issue, notice they were removed from corresponding enemies.
Dwarf vs Greenskin
(both lost a melee DPS)
Empire vs Chaos
Dark Elf vs High Elf
(one faction on each side lost a tank, but on different sides of the conflict)
Chaos has the advantage tank-wise, and the High Elves have the advantage tank-wise.
Things balance themselves out in a way, but on the other hand..... you do understand that the other tanks can come to the Empire or Dark Elf RvR-grounds right? Time to go help your allies with thier tanking problems.
Actually he picks a very important part. No matter what you may say wow was missing things that was planed, just because it got by without them doesnt mean they didnt lie to us or w/e you want to call. Continue that and now these features that was suppose to be in at launch are now a xpac but we forget since it was a long while ago. Take that same logic and apply to WAR. Quests are in and work , PQ's work , technicly they didnt have all their planed classes cause hero classes was up on there, and we are just now seeing them. They changed their mind for balancing reasons remember .We have siege weapons, we have RVR we have a capital to attack we have the mechanics.
I'm sorry guys, but WoW released way better than this.
For one, It was not missing half of it classes.
Second, it was not missing any cities.
Third, what it was missing was not core to the game.
This eclipses WoWs release.
___________________ Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
They have already explained how things work now in RvR. You have to control two of the three RvR fronts to assault the enemies capital city. As for the tanks/melee dps issue, notice they were removed from corresponding enemies.
TheSheik, it isn't going to balance out. The game was not meant to played out like that. The game was made with all of the classes presence in mind.
___________________ Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
It isn't finished. They are releasing it early just like every MMO that has ever been released besides to some degree WoW. They should push it back me thinks, but if they can pull it off bravo. Otherwise they will get exactly what they put in.
LOL:
2.4
Sunwell Plateau
Sunwell Isle
New Daily Quests
And much more
You have traveled through the Dark Portal and braved the perils of Outland; you faced off against the might of the Burning Legion itself, and you prevailed. Now the journey that began with the arrival of the draenei on Azeroth and the blood elves' inclusion into the Horde is about to come full circle as a mighty army gathers to purge evil from one of Azeroth's most important loci of power: the ancient, magical Sunwell.
2.3
Zul’Aman
Guild Banks
Faster Leveling to 60
And much more
The stronghold of Zul'Aman has stood for millennia as the Amani trolls' seat of power and bastion of the fearless, cunning warlord Zul'jin.
Zul'jin has spent several years plotting behind Zul'Aman's walls. Furious at the Horde for allowing his hated enemies, the blood elves, to join its ranks, he eagerly embraced a scheme that the witch doctor Malacrass recently proposed: to seal the power of the animal gods within the bodies of the Amani's strongest warriors.
Now Zul'Aman's army grows more powerful by the day, hungry to exact vengeance in the name of its fearless leader, Zul'jin.
2.2
Voice Chat
Mac Movie Capture
Azeroth is alive with the sound of voices. For the first time, players are able to talk to each other in game with the use of the new Voice Chat feature. Also in this patch, aspiring moviemakers can now use their Mac to capture all the in-game action and share it with their friends.
2.1
The Black Temple
Druid Epic Flight Form
Nether Drake
And much more
......
LoL I said to a degree. They had all their planned classes, and their quests and areas were very polished and fleshed out. I know there were a lot of bugs, but they delivered for the most part what they were going for close to launch.
I am in no way promoting WoW, but saying it is an anomaly. I know a lot was missing, but most MMO's are put out unfinished and could not be passed off as a shippable game by any reasonable means. WoW could, and it is the only one besides maybe LoTRO.
Way to pick one meaningless part of my post and completely derail the entire post though. You rock!
Actually he picks a very important part. No matter what you may say wow was missing things that was planed, just because it got by without them doesnt mean they didnt lie to us or w/e you want to call.
Continue that and now these features that was suppose to be in at launch are now a xpac but we forget since it was a long while ago.
Take that same logic and apply to WAR. Quests are in and work , PQ's work , technicly they didnt have all their planed classes cause hero classes was up on there, and we are just now seeing them. They changed their mind for balancing reasons remember .We have siege weapons, we have RVR we have a capital to attack we have the mechanics.
You are talking about a whole different kind of scale. We are but months from launch with MAJOR gameplay elements and World elements getting cancelled. Not a year or two back taling about issues where the developer said 'This is PLANNED, but may or may not be implemented.' We are talking about stuff that has always been planned, always been promised, and always been promoted. Go ahead and take this as an excuse or comparison to write off these changes, but you are comparing elements talked about 2 or 3 years from the completion of a project that were never actually promised, and elements that have been a major part of the game cancelled 3-6 months from release that have always been a major part of the game.
Originally posted by PureChaos Actually he picks a very important part. No matter what you may say wow was missing things that was planed, just because it got by without them doesnt mean they didnt lie to us or w/e you want to call. Continue that and now these features that was suppose to be in at launch are now a xpac but we forget since it was a long while ago. Take that same logic and apply to WAR. Quests are in and work , PQ's work , technicly they didnt have all their planed classes cause hero classes was up on there, and we are just now seeing them. They changed their mind for balancing reasons remember .We have siege weapons, we have RVR we have a capital to attack we have the mechanics.
I'm sorry guys, but WoW released way better than this.
For one, It was not missing half of it classes.
Second, it was not missing any cities.
Third, what it was missing was not core to the game.
This eclipses WoWs release.
24 - 4 is 20. Half would be 12. Back to school young one, you need to learn math again.
Yeah it was filled with crappy cities like Darnassus that NO ONE WENT TO.
WAR still has its core elements, they're rearranged differently AT LAUNCH until the other four cities are in. Why can't you see that? There's still RvR and still Dwarf/Greenskin and Elf zones.
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
They have already explained how things work now in RvR. You have to control two of the three RvR fronts to assault the enemies capital city. As for the tanks/melee dps issue, notice they were removed from corresponding enemies.
Dwarf vs Greenskin (both lost a melee DPS)
Empire vs Chaos Dark Elf vs High Elf (one faction on each side lost a tank, but on different sides of the conflict) Chaos has the advantage tank-wise, and the High Elves have the advantage tank-wise.
Things balance themselves out in a way, but on the other hand..... you do understand that the other tanks can come to the Empire or Dark Elf RvR-grounds right? Time to go help your allies with thier tanking problems.
Balanced is one thing - complete is another.
If a game, in another genre for instance, like BattleField 3 came out and to get it out in time the US and the BadGuy army both had medic removed or both had SpecOps removed it would be balanced bit it would indicate a direct flaw in the gameplay. Furthermore, how often do you suppose those maps with the gimped armies would get play compared to those maps with complete armies? Apply this to an MMO and you can see serious issue from this, very serious issues. Who wants to play with the gimped races - why bother to make a toon with a realm so obviously incomplete?
And again I ask - how polished, how well developed, indeed how good can a game be when something this big and far reaching is cut in order to meet and arbitrary deadline? That is the real question.
1) The capital cities are the jewel in our RvR crown. If we mess up with them, WAR will not be anywhere near as successful as it could have been. These cities are unlike any other cities in any MMO that I have seen or played. The amount of true content that revolves in and around them (and not just sticking a quest-giver NPC in a city) is unlike any other game. Both RvR and PvE happens there in a way that also has never been done in any other MMO's cities. Each city has 12 PQs and almost 100 quests (RvR and PvE) that either lead to the city, take place in the city or lead out of the city as well as 3 dungeons.
Ok, so these all improtant jewels that so exceed anything seen in other games are cut dramatically how is that not a dramatic cut to the game? Spin aside - he is talkign here about how important these things are and we are to believe it is not a major, major loss the way they are cut. And more importantly what deciding to cut so much of something he says is so important says about the commitment to a polished game at release.
2) Because we are focusing on just 2 cities, the team has been able to pour more time into each city and really make them great. They truly are living cities and what you will see and experience in them would not have been possible to do if we had to get 6 cities ready for launch even if we had a lot more time.
Meaningless spin - been there and done that before. Heard it 100 times before and never has it been true. They are not cutting B to have more time to make A great they likely have barely enough time to finish A let alone finish A and B and make either great.
3) Each CC takes a tremendous amount of time to design, iterate and release. No matter how much time we spend on the cities during development and beta, once the game is released everything changes. The history of MMOs has shown all of us that no matter how smart the developer or experienced the team, mistakes are made. Given the complexity of our cities, we can expect the same thing to happen to us.
Perhaps true - all the more reason releasing when not truly done makes doing it later even harder. Pot release they will have balance and stability and server side issues and all sorts of things pulling their attention. We are to believe that with none of these issues of live affecting them and with 5 years of work they couldn't do it but they will with added distractions and issues? BS.
4) Keeping (1) and (2) and (3) in mind, if we had made the decision to keep in all 6 cities, the chances of things going horribly wrong at launch and post-launch would have increased tremendously no matter how long we worked on them. The last thing that we would want to happen is to launch a great game but when players actually got to the city siege part, things were not working. We will not go down that path. By focusing on 2 cities, we lessen the chance of that happening considerably.
5) One of our most troubling concerns was what would happen post-launch in terms of each side's ability to take a city. Having in all 6 cities would mean that the focus of each side could have gotten distracted, the player base more spread out. If this happened, city sieges may have taken a lot longer for each side to accomplish and that would not have been pleasing to anybody. I'm reminded of the line from Jurassic Park where Jeff Goldman says "Now eventually you might have dinosaurs on your, on your dinosaur tour, right?" If players said to us "Now eventually you'll have capital city siege in your RvR game" to us, that would be very bad.
Perhaps - but only if they truly are making the rest perfect. I feel strongly saying that is unlikely because that kind of pre release perfection is simply unattainable wihtout a vibrant and diverse player base. Also hard to believe this seeing what they are willing to call done in order to release.
6) We expect over the months post-launch we will learn a lot about how our cities actually function in a truly LIVE environment. We will apply these lessons to the new cities and look at possibly rotating cities in and out of RvR to not only spice up the RvR experience but to allow us to tweak and improve the older cities. This will be both in the short- and long-run to be a major win for the players.
Is he saying that the best place to build a piece of software is in a live situation - total BS. Games that release with substantial development left to be done rarely, if ever, go anywhere good.
In the end, I'm not sorry at all that we are delaying the release of the other cities. Even if we had an unlimited budget and unlimited time and believed that we could do 6 awesome cities at launch, we know that starting with two capital cities is the best way to ensure a great experience for the players no matter whether their focus is on PvE, RvR or a combination of both.
This is pure spin to me. To believe this you have to believe that even though through 90% of the game's developmetn they though these elements where important that suddenly they are not and so get cut to make everything else better. Add in the lost classes and other stuff and it is obvious they are not concerned with quality or polish or completeness but with getting the discs in the box, rarely a good sign at all.
I really see no point in arguing with you over this, you seem to have already made up you mind as to whether you trust Mythic or not. If you don't trust Mark Jacobs, head on over to the VN boards and tell him.
See what I mean? You read the entire post, where Mark talks about wanting them to be of quality and polish before they are put into the game. Yet after reading, you feel it is obvious he doesn't care.
I'm sorry, but you are just too damned bull-headed to convince otherwise.
They have already explained how things work now in RvR. You have to control two of the three RvR fronts to assault the enemies capital city. As for the tanks/melee dps issue, notice they were removed from corresponding enemies.
Dwarf vs Greenskin (both lost a melee DPS)
Empire vs Chaos Dark Elf vs High Elf (one faction on each side lost a tank, but on different sides of the conflict) Chaos has the advantage tank-wise, and the High Elves have the advantage tank-wise.
Things balance themselves out in a way, but on the other hand..... you do understand that the other tanks can come to the Empire or Dark Elf RvR-grounds right? Time to go help your allies with thier tanking problems.
Balanced is one thing - complete is another. If another game, in another genre for clarity, like BattleField 3 came out and to get it out in time the US and the BadGuy army both had medic removed or both had SpecOps removed it would be balanced bit it would indicate a direct flaw in teh gameplay. Furthermore, how often do you suppose those maps with the gimped armies would get play compared to those maps with complete armies? Apply this to an MMO and you can see serious issue from this, very serious issues. Who wants to play with the gimped races - why bother to make a toon with a realm so obviously incompelete?
Why are you comparing a FPS with two sides (and 6 classes I believe), to an MMORPG with six realms (and 20 classes)?
Actually he picks a very important part. No matter what you may say wow was missing things that was planed, just because it got by without them doesnt mean they didnt lie to us or w/e you want to call. Continue that and now these features that was suppose to be in at launch are now a xpac but we forget since it was a long while ago. Take that same logic and apply to WAR. Quests are in and work , PQ's work , technicly they didnt have all their planed classes cause hero classes was up on there, and we are just now seeing them. They changed their mind for balancing reasons remember .We have siege weapons, we have RVR we have a capital to attack we have the mechanics.
I'm sorry guys, but WoW released way better than this.
For one, It was not missing half of it classes.
Second, it was not missing any cities.
Third, what it was missing was not core to the game.
This eclipses WoWs release.
The part you are missing is this. They may have had all that crap in the game, but it wasn't finished. Some classes did not have talents and most of the classes that had talents had crap. Remember Hunters with no talents? How about Druids with only resto?
Cities were in, but they were pointless. A couple quests, some trainers, they all didn't even have Auction Houses in them. Just because you feel that was finished doesnt mean it wasnt crap.
It had no pvp system and no completed raid content at launch. I call that core to the game, especially at launch when there was no such thing as heroics or alternate gear advancement.
I played WoW from beta up until about 2 months ago. No one is going to pull the wool over my eyes with what was or was not in at release. Sorry.
Originally posted by TheSheikh I really see no point in arguing with you over this, you seem to have already made up you mind as to whether you trust Mythic or not. If you don't trust Mark Jacobs, head on over to the VN boards and tell him. See what I mean? You read the entire post, where Mark talks about wanting them to be of quality and polish before they are put into the game. Yet after reading, you feel it is obvious he doesn't care. I'm sorry, but you are just too damned bull-headed to convince otherwise.
Actions speak louder than words. If the priority was getting it right above all else they woud delay to make it right. Despite thier words it is clear they are about getting to the payday nto getting the game done right. In short, good enough is what drives development and I don't think it is unfair to question that.
They have already explained how things work now in RvR. You have to control two of the three RvR fronts to assault the enemies capital city. As for the tanks/melee dps issue, notice they were removed from corresponding enemies.
TheSheik, it isn't going to balance out. The game was not meant to played out like that. The game was made with all of the classes presence in mind.
The classes of course, it was not at all meant to be played like that. But luckily things ended up creating somewhat of a balance. Things could have been worse (i.e. one side losing 3 classes while the other loses 1).
As for the overall RvR campaign (the 3 vs 3), things will most definately be balanced seeing that each side lost the two classes of the same archetype.
Originally posted by TheSheikh I really see no point in arguing with you over this, you seem to have already made up you mind as to whether you trust Mythic or not. If you don't trust Mark Jacobs, head on over to the VN boards and tell him. See what I mean? You read the entire post, where Mark talks about wanting them to be of quality and polish before they are put into the game. Yet after reading, you feel it is obvious he doesn't care. I'm sorry, but you are just too damned bull-headed to convince otherwise.
Actions speak louder than words. If the priority was getting it right above all else they woud delay to make it right. Despite thier words it is clear they are about getting to the payday nto getting the game done right. In short, good enough is what drives development and I don't think it is unfair to question that.
I hope you'll at least try the game. You could actually like it more with two cities instead of 6, and if you aren't playing one of the TEMPORARILY cut classes you shouldn't really care.
Better yet, please just wait until all cities and classes are back in.
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Professional's and Experienced, that is what it says about its creators. Good show imo.
Don't take this personally but ^^ is crap.
They have obviously been given a hard release date now by the "upper management" and they are cutting the most unfinished things to make that date.
Which means like most MMO's the stuff that is actually IN game won't be as good, polished or balanced as it should be.. because now they have a deadline.
Has absolutely nothing to do with Professionalism or Experience.
It has to do with getting the box out the door by a certain date at any cost.
And if it bombs as bad as AoC (yes that game is crap imho) then you'll know exactly why the EA was cut off the front of Mythic.. when they get dropped by EA.
DAoC populaton certainly isn't going to justify keeping them around.
Hopefully the game does really well.. the last thing we need is more failed MMO's so that people don't want to finance them anymore.
(ya I may talk of gloom and doom but failed games aren't good for anyone especially us the gamers).
*edit*
I just wanted to add two things.
1) I am in beta and have been for quite some time. So much of my view point is based on that (as well as playing daoc since it was in beta).
2) No I don't trust Mark Jacobs. I think Mark and Brad McQuaid could make a really good game together on.. paper (toilet paper). Statements he has made in the last year that was blatantly false pretty much sealed the deal on that one.
Originally posted by Sepulcher The part you are missing is this. They may have had all that crap in the game, but it wasn't finished. Some classes did not have talents and most of the classes that had talents had crap. Remember Hunters with no talents? How about Druids with only resto?
Cities were in, but they were pointless. A couple quests, some trainers, they all didn't even have Auction Houses in them. Just because you feel that was finished doesnt mean it wasnt crap. It had no pvp system and no completed raid content at launch. I call that core to the game, especially at launch when there was no such thing as heroics or alternate gear advancement. I played WoW from beta up until about 2 months ago. No one is going to pull the wool over my eyes with what was or was not in at release. Sorry.
And still it was a hell of a lot better than what we are going to see in WAR. It still had more of what actually mattered. it released with more than just enough to function.
The stuff missing, just right now, impacts everyone at the character creation screen on top of it all.
I'll go ahead and fold though. I'll let you find out for yourselves just what you are in for. After all, I need WAR to succeed for the benefit of another project. Although I'm hoping they abandon it and sell it to someone else now...
___________________ Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
4 cities not in at release means 66% of the end game won't be in at release, but more importantly, 4 races will not have a hub to meet at high lvl and will be forced to go to other capital cities, creating unnecessary lag and population problem.
2 tank races not in, including the famed orc choppa, means an inflation of players toward certain races with available tank classes.
It's disapointing, even tho the honesty of Mythic is great. If the game disappoint aside from those elements cut out, the game will bomb.
My addiction History: >> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore >> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual >> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.
Comments
ya know i thin honestly we forget how much WOW left out that they promised when it came out due to its huge success short after. Prob cause its been so long ago since its release.
to respond to the person above me.
you had to in WoW , but we forget dont we
"Besides the content removed what does this say about the game?"
It says that Mythic cares more about pleasing their shareholders in the short term than the long term.
It says that EA is applying a lot of pressure from the top to get the job done, and that to the suits in the glass tower an incomplete launch is preferable to a further delayed launch.
It says that, somewhere along the way, despite all the hype and PR spin that has been flowing out of this game for over a year, the idea of a quality product was lost. This might not be AoC all over again, but the purity and hope that people had come to associate with this title is now either gone or severely depressed.
I'm sorry, but this is just a disgusting, wretched misstep. 2/6 cities at launch in an RvR game whose central focus is the ultimate contest to sieze said cities?
Perhaps even more startling is the news about the classes. What MMO doesn't start working on the classes first? That should be priority-one when design starts, particularly since the classes are, obviously, what the customer is going to have the most contact and interaction with during their time in the game.
Most telling of all is when these announcements are being made. Here we are, maybe 2-3 months from the supposed launch, and massive blocks of content are being sliced out. Why wasn't this forseen a year or more ago? Why wasn't the planning in place to build in a launch window to accomodate desired launch goals? We're thirty feet from the finish line, and major pieces are falling off of the car.
This doesn't do much to cultivate confidence in the pit crew.
So I can play a choppa on release? No, that is a cut to me. So, you facts are being distorted a bit.
Go cut your finger off, tell me what happens.
I obviously meant they were not cut from the game permanently.
STOP WHINING!
I will to defer to people more familiar with the intricacies of the game on this but how can some races losing their tanks not affect game mechanics? How can the lose of capital cities, critical elements in RvR, not affect the mechanics of RvR? This is not the normal cut the high level content as people will not be there for a month or so type thing, the things cut are things that affect all players on day one.
I'm right there with AgtSmith on this. Right there with him on this, this is an alteration of the game mechanics. There will be complications we can't begin to speculate about. My prediction is that the zones that have had their city removed, will also be removed.
Further, we have no idea how long it will take for any of this to be implemented back in. The classes may never come back. We DO know that it will be many months before we see anything, and I doubt it will be everything, else they would have delayed.
___________________
Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
I dunno, but people who complain about stuff like this, seems to me, indicate their misunderstanding of the creative, much less collaboratively creative process. Every type of media you enjoy--books, movies, music, games--undergoes tremendous amounts of editing. Often it winds up nothing like what its' creators intended. Writers speak of this when they say that characters take on lives of their own.
It should be no surprise that products created for profit--which, face it, most games are--aren't immune to the process. In fact, often they're made better, for precisely the kinds of reasons the devs mentioned.
LOL:
2.4
Sunwell Plateau
Sunwell Isle
New Daily Quests
And much more
You have traveled through the Dark Portal and braved the perils of Outland; you faced off against the might of the Burning Legion itself, and you prevailed. Now the journey that began with the arrival of the draenei on Azeroth and the blood elves' inclusion into the Horde is about to come full circle as a mighty army gathers to purge evil from one of Azeroth's most important loci of power: the ancient, magical Sunwell.
2.3
Zul’Aman
Guild Banks
Faster Leveling to 60
And much more
The stronghold of Zul'Aman has stood for millennia as the Amani trolls' seat of power and bastion of the fearless, cunning warlord Zul'jin.
Zul'jin has spent several years plotting behind Zul'Aman's walls. Furious at the Horde for allowing his hated enemies, the blood elves, to join its ranks, he eagerly embraced a scheme that the witch doctor Malacrass recently proposed: to seal the power of the animal gods within the bodies of the Amani's strongest warriors.
Now Zul'Aman's army grows more powerful by the day, hungry to exact vengeance in the name of its fearless leader, Zul'jin.
2.2
Voice Chat
Mac Movie Capture
Azeroth is alive with the sound of voices. For the first time, players are able to talk to each other in game with the use of the new Voice Chat feature. Also in this patch, aspiring moviemakers can now use their Mac to capture all the in-game action and share it with their friends.
2.1
The Black Temple
Druid Epic Flight Form
Nether Drake
And much more
......
LoL I said to a degree. They had all their planned classes, and their quests and areas were very polished and fleshed out. I know there were a lot of bugs, but they delivered for the most part what they were going for close to launch.
I am in no way promoting WoW, but saying it is an anomaly. I know a lot was missing, but most MMO's are put out unfinished and could not be passed off as a shippable game by any reasonable means. WoW could, and it is the only one besides maybe LoTRO.
Way to pick one meaningless part of my post and completely derail the entire post though. You rock!
I will to defer to people more familiar with the intricacies of the game on this but how can some races losing their tanks not affect game mechanics? How can the lose of capital cities, critical elements in RvR, not affect the mechanics of RvR? This is not the normal cut the high level content as people will not be there for a month or so type thing, the things cut are things that affect all players on day one.
I'm right there with AgtSmith on this. Right there with him on this, this is an alteration of the game mechanics. There will be complications we can't begin to speculate about. My prediction is that the zones that have had their city removed, will also be removed.
yeah cause they said when they announced this that you will need to control two areas to attack the capital till they are in.
Further, we have no idea how long it will take for any of this to be implemented back in. The classes may never come back. We DO know that it will be many months before we see anything, and I doubt it will be everything, else they would have delayed.
LOL:
2.4
Sunwell Plateau
Sunwell Isle
New Daily Quests
And much more
You have traveled through the Dark Portal and braved the perils of Outland; you faced off against the might of the Burning Legion itself, and you prevailed. Now the journey that began with the arrival of the draenei on Azeroth and the blood elves' inclusion into the Horde is about to come full circle as a mighty army gathers to purge evil from one of Azeroth's most important loci of power: the ancient, magical Sunwell.
2.3
Zul’Aman
Guild Banks
Faster Leveling to 60
And much more
The stronghold of Zul'Aman has stood for millennia as the Amani trolls' seat of power and bastion of the fearless, cunning warlord Zul'jin.
Zul'jin has spent several years plotting behind Zul'Aman's walls. Furious at the Horde for allowing his hated enemies, the blood elves, to join its ranks, he eagerly embraced a scheme that the witch doctor Malacrass recently proposed: to seal the power of the animal gods within the bodies of the Amani's strongest warriors.
Now Zul'Aman's army grows more powerful by the day, hungry to exact vengeance in the name of its fearless leader, Zul'jin.
2.2
Voice Chat
Mac Movie Capture
Azeroth is alive with the sound of voices. For the first time, players are able to talk to each other in game with the use of the new Voice Chat feature. Also in this patch, aspiring moviemakers can now use their Mac to capture all the in-game action and share it with their friends.
2.1
The Black Temple
Druid Epic Flight Form
Nether Drake
And much more
......
LoL I said to a degree. They had all their planned classes, and their quests and areas were very polished and fleshed out. I know there were a lot of bugs, but they delivered for the most part what they were going for close to launch.
I am in no way promoting WoW, but saying it is an anomaly. I know a lot was missing, but most MMO's are put out unfinished and could not be passed off as a shippable game by any reasonable means. WoW could, and it is the only one besides maybe LoTRO.
Way to pick one meaningless part of my post and completely derail the entire post though. You rock!
Actually he picks a very important part. No matter what you may say wow was missing things that was planed, just because it got by without them doesnt mean they didnt lie to us or w/e you want to call.
Continue that and now these features that was suppose to be in at launch are now a xpac but we forget since it was a long while ago.
Take that same logic and apply to WAR. Quests are in and work , PQ's work , technicly they didnt have all their planed classes cause hero classes was up on there, and we are just now seeing them. They changed their mind for balancing reasons remember .We have siege weapons, we have RVR we have a capital to attack we have the mechanics.
I said that they would remove those areas because of complications. Not they they have already.
"yeah cause they said when they announced this that you will need to control two areas to attack the capital till they are in."
___________________
Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
Ok, so these all improtant jewels that so exceed anything seen in other games are cut dramatically how is that not a dramatic cut to the game? Spin aside - he is talkign here about how important these things are and we are to believe it is not a major, major loss the way they are cut. And more importantly what deciding to cut so much of something he says is so important says about the commitment to a polished game at release.
Meaningless spin - been there and done that before. Heard it 100 times before and never has it been true. They are not cutting B to have more time to make A great they likely have barely enough time to finish A let alone finish A and B and make either great.
Perhaps true - all the more reason releasing when not truly done makes doing it later even harder. Pot release they will have balance and stability and server side issues and all sorts of things pulling their attention. We are to believe that with none of these issues of live affecting them and with 5 years of work they couldn't do it but they will with added distractions and issues? BS.
Perhaps - but only if they truly are making the rest perfect. I feel strongly saying that is unlikely because that kind of pre release perfection is simply unattainable wihtout a vibrant and diverse player base. Also hard to believe this seeing what they are willing to call done in order to release.
Is he saying that the best place to build a piece of software is in a live situation - total BS. Games that release with substantial development left to be done rarely, if ever, go anywhere good.
This is pure spin to me. To believe this you have to believe that even though through 90% of the game's developmetn they though these elements where important that suddenly they are not and so get cut to make everything else better. Add in the lost classes and other stuff and it is obvious they are not concerned with quality or polish or completeness but with getting the discs in the box, rarely a good sign at all.
But to get back on my original thought - I was asking not about the specific affect this has on the game but on what it says about how they are making the game. To me it isn't a big deal because of each individual ellement it is a big deal because it is OBVIOUS this is no small cut and the reason for doing it is just to get the game to market sooner. If these elements are just slightly unfinished and adding them in is no big deal then a month or so delay would be no big deal - to announce them as cut means they are a loonnnngggg way from being done. And if that much is the case how well done and polished can the game really be?
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
I will to defer to people more familiar with the intricacies of the game on this but how can some races losing their tanks not affect game mechanics? How can the lose of capital cities, critical elements in RvR, not affect the mechanics of RvR? This is not the normal cut the high level content as people will not be there for a month or so type thing, the things cut are things that affect all players on day one.
They have already explained how things work now in RvR.
You have to control two of the three RvR fronts to assault the enemies capital city.
As for the tanks/melee dps issue, notice they were removed from corresponding enemies.
Dwarf vs Greenskin
(both lost a melee DPS)
Empire vs Chaos
Dark Elf vs High Elf
(one faction on each side lost a tank, but on different sides of the conflict)
Chaos has the advantage tank-wise, and the High Elves have the advantage tank-wise.
Things balance themselves out in a way, but on the other hand..... you do understand that the other tanks can come to the Empire or Dark Elf RvR-grounds right? Time to go help your allies with thier tanking problems.
STOP WHINING!
I'm sorry guys, but WoW released way better than this.
For one, It was not missing half of it classes.
Second, it was not missing any cities.
Third, what it was missing was not core to the game.
This eclipses WoWs release.
___________________
Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
TheSheik, it isn't going to balance out. The game was not meant to played out like that. The game was made with all of the classes presence in mind.
___________________
Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
LOL:
2.4
Sunwell Plateau
Sunwell Isle
New Daily Quests
And much more
You have traveled through the Dark Portal and braved the perils of Outland; you faced off against the might of the Burning Legion itself, and you prevailed. Now the journey that began with the arrival of the draenei on Azeroth and the blood elves' inclusion into the Horde is about to come full circle as a mighty army gathers to purge evil from one of Azeroth's most important loci of power: the ancient, magical Sunwell.
2.3
Zul’Aman
Guild Banks
Faster Leveling to 60
And much more
The stronghold of Zul'Aman has stood for millennia as the Amani trolls' seat of power and bastion of the fearless, cunning warlord Zul'jin.
Zul'jin has spent several years plotting behind Zul'Aman's walls. Furious at the Horde for allowing his hated enemies, the blood elves, to join its ranks, he eagerly embraced a scheme that the witch doctor Malacrass recently proposed: to seal the power of the animal gods within the bodies of the Amani's strongest warriors.
Now Zul'Aman's army grows more powerful by the day, hungry to exact vengeance in the name of its fearless leader, Zul'jin.
2.2
Voice Chat
Mac Movie Capture
Azeroth is alive with the sound of voices. For the first time, players are able to talk to each other in game with the use of the new Voice Chat feature. Also in this patch, aspiring moviemakers can now use their Mac to capture all the in-game action and share it with their friends.
2.1
The Black Temple
Druid Epic Flight Form
Nether Drake
And much more
......
LoL I said to a degree. They had all their planned classes, and their quests and areas were very polished and fleshed out. I know there were a lot of bugs, but they delivered for the most part what they were going for close to launch.
I am in no way promoting WoW, but saying it is an anomaly. I know a lot was missing, but most MMO's are put out unfinished and could not be passed off as a shippable game by any reasonable means. WoW could, and it is the only one besides maybe LoTRO.
Way to pick one meaningless part of my post and completely derail the entire post though. You rock!
Actually he picks a very important part. No matter what you may say wow was missing things that was planed, just because it got by without them doesnt mean they didnt lie to us or w/e you want to call.
Continue that and now these features that was suppose to be in at launch are now a xpac but we forget since it was a long while ago.
Take that same logic and apply to WAR. Quests are in and work , PQ's work , technicly they didnt have all their planed classes cause hero classes was up on there, and we are just now seeing them. They changed their mind for balancing reasons remember .We have siege weapons, we have RVR we have a capital to attack we have the mechanics.
You are talking about a whole different kind of scale. We are but months from launch with MAJOR gameplay elements and World elements getting cancelled. Not a year or two back taling about issues where the developer said 'This is PLANNED, but may or may not be implemented.' We are talking about stuff that has always been planned, always been promised, and always been promoted. Go ahead and take this as an excuse or comparison to write off these changes, but you are comparing elements talked about 2 or 3 years from the completion of a project that were never actually promised, and elements that have been a major part of the game cancelled 3-6 months from release that have always been a major part of the game.
I'm sorry guys, but WoW released way better than this.
For one, It was not missing half of it classes.
Second, it was not missing any cities.
Third, what it was missing was not core to the game.
This eclipses WoWs release.
24 - 4 is 20. Half would be 12. Back to school young one, you need to learn math again.
Yeah it was filled with crappy cities like Darnassus that NO ONE WENT TO.
WAR still has its core elements, they're rearranged differently AT LAUNCH until the other four cities are in. Why can't you see that? There's still RvR and still Dwarf/Greenskin and Elf zones.
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
Balanced is one thing - complete is another.
If a game, in another genre for instance, like BattleField 3 came out and to get it out in time the US and the BadGuy army both had medic removed or both had SpecOps removed it would be balanced bit it would indicate a direct flaw in the gameplay. Furthermore, how often do you suppose those maps with the gimped armies would get play compared to those maps with complete armies? Apply this to an MMO and you can see serious issue from this, very serious issues. Who wants to play with the gimped races - why bother to make a toon with a realm so obviously incomplete?
And again I ask - how polished, how well developed, indeed how good can a game be when something this big and far reaching is cut in order to meet and arbitrary deadline? That is the real question.
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
Ok, so these all improtant jewels that so exceed anything seen in other games are cut dramatically how is that not a dramatic cut to the game? Spin aside - he is talkign here about how important these things are and we are to believe it is not a major, major loss the way they are cut. And more importantly what deciding to cut so much of something he says is so important says about the commitment to a polished game at release.
Meaningless spin - been there and done that before. Heard it 100 times before and never has it been true. They are not cutting B to have more time to make A great they likely have barely enough time to finish A let alone finish A and B and make either great.
Perhaps true - all the more reason releasing when not truly done makes doing it later even harder. Pot release they will have balance and stability and server side issues and all sorts of things pulling their attention. We are to believe that with none of these issues of live affecting them and with 5 years of work they couldn't do it but they will with added distractions and issues? BS.
Perhaps - but only if they truly are making the rest perfect. I feel strongly saying that is unlikely because that kind of pre release perfection is simply unattainable wihtout a vibrant and diverse player base. Also hard to believe this seeing what they are willing to call done in order to release.
Is he saying that the best place to build a piece of software is in a live situation - total BS. Games that release with substantial development left to be done rarely, if ever, go anywhere good.
This is pure spin to me. To believe this you have to believe that even though through 90% of the game's developmetn they though these elements where important that suddenly they are not and so get cut to make everything else better. Add in the lost classes and other stuff and it is obvious they are not concerned with quality or polish or completeness but with getting the discs in the box, rarely a good sign at all.
I really see no point in arguing with you over this, you seem to have already made up you mind as to whether you trust Mythic or not. If you don't trust Mark Jacobs, head on over to the VN boards and tell him.
See what I mean? You read the entire post, where Mark talks about wanting them to be of quality and polish before they are put into the game. Yet after reading, you feel it is obvious he doesn't care.
I'm sorry, but you are just too damned bull-headed to convince otherwise.
STOP WHINING!
Balanced is one thing - complete is another. If another game, in another genre for clarity, like BattleField 3 came out and to get it out in time the US and the BadGuy army both had medic removed or both had SpecOps removed it would be balanced bit it would indicate a direct flaw in teh gameplay. Furthermore, how often do you suppose those maps with the gimped armies would get play compared to those maps with complete armies? Apply this to an MMO and you can see serious issue from this, very serious issues. Who wants to play with the gimped races - why bother to make a toon with a realm so obviously incompelete?
Why are you comparing a FPS with two sides (and 6 classes I believe), to an MMORPG with six realms (and 20 classes)?
Way to veer off the on-topic highway.....
STOP WHINING!
I'm sorry guys, but WoW released way better than this.
For one, It was not missing half of it classes.
Second, it was not missing any cities.
Third, what it was missing was not core to the game.
This eclipses WoWs release.
The part you are missing is this. They may have had all that crap in the game, but it wasn't finished. Some classes did not have talents and most of the classes that had talents had crap. Remember Hunters with no talents? How about Druids with only resto?
Cities were in, but they were pointless. A couple quests, some trainers, they all didn't even have Auction Houses in them. Just because you feel that was finished doesnt mean it wasnt crap.
It had no pvp system and no completed raid content at launch. I call that core to the game, especially at launch when there was no such thing as heroics or alternate gear advancement.
I played WoW from beta up until about 2 months ago. No one is going to pull the wool over my eyes with what was or was not in at release. Sorry.
Actions speak louder than words. If the priority was getting it right above all else they woud delay to make it right. Despite thier words it is clear they are about getting to the payday nto getting the game done right. In short, good enough is what drives development and I don't think it is unfair to question that.
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
TheSheik, it isn't going to balance out. The game was not meant to played out like that. The game was made with all of the classes presence in mind.
The classes of course, it was not at all meant to be played like that. But luckily things ended up creating somewhat of a balance. Things could have been worse (i.e. one side losing 3 classes while the other loses 1).
As for the overall RvR campaign (the 3 vs 3), things will most definately be balanced seeing that each side lost the two classes of the same archetype.
STOP WHINING!
Actions speak louder than words. If the priority was getting it right above all else they woud delay to make it right. Despite thier words it is clear they are about getting to the payday nto getting the game done right. In short, good enough is what drives development and I don't think it is unfair to question that.
I hope you'll at least try the game. You could actually like it more with two cities instead of 6, and if you aren't playing one of the TEMPORARILY cut classes you shouldn't really care.
Better yet, please just wait until all cities and classes are back in.
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
Don't take this personally but ^^ is crap.
They have obviously been given a hard release date now by the "upper management" and they are cutting the most unfinished things to make that date.
Which means like most MMO's the stuff that is actually IN game won't be as good, polished or balanced as it should be.. because now they have a deadline.
Has absolutely nothing to do with Professionalism or Experience.
It has to do with getting the box out the door by a certain date at any cost.
And if it bombs as bad as AoC (yes that game is crap imho) then you'll know exactly why the EA was cut off the front of Mythic.. when they get dropped by EA.
DAoC populaton certainly isn't going to justify keeping them around.
Hopefully the game does really well.. the last thing we need is more failed MMO's so that people don't want to finance them anymore.
(ya I may talk of gloom and doom but failed games aren't good for anyone especially us the gamers).
*edit*
I just wanted to add two things.
1) I am in beta and have been for quite some time. So much of my view point is based on that (as well as playing daoc since it was in beta).
2) No I don't trust Mark Jacobs. I think Mark and Brad McQuaid could make a really good game together on.. paper (toilet paper). Statements he has made in the last year that was blatantly false pretty much sealed the deal on that one.
And still it was a hell of a lot better than what we are going to see in WAR. It still had more of what actually mattered. it released with more than just enough to function.
The stuff missing, just right now, impacts everyone at the character creation screen on top of it all.
I'll go ahead and fold though. I'll let you find out for yourselves just what you are in for. After all, I need WAR to succeed for the benefit of another project. Although I'm hoping they abandon it and sell it to someone else now...
___________________
Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
4 cities not in at release means 66% of the end game won't be in at release, but more importantly, 4 races will not have a hub to meet at high lvl and will be forced to go to other capital cities, creating unnecessary lag and population problem.
2 tank races not in, including the famed orc choppa, means an inflation of players toward certain races with available tank classes.
It's disapointing, even tho the honesty of Mythic is great. If the game disappoint aside from those elements cut out, the game will bomb.
My addiction History:
>> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore
>> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual
>> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.