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Champions fell DEEP in my esteem today.
Elikal
Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
Why? I watched the video interview here.
SEE: www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/189634
I had Champions Online HIGH on my list, and I practically kicked it out. Why? He said Champions online will be an ACTION RPG, where you duck and cover, jump out of the way and block. Like in console fighting games. Geez. I am SO dissapointed. I had hoped it would be along the City of Heroes lines. I am fed up with everyone wanting to make a Conanesque game these days. 
The GREAT revelation AoC was to me, as much as some things are fun, that the fast paced, action RPG combat takes away A LOT of strategical depth and character development depth. If combat is like piano playing, you cant give the characters many different attacks, like in a WOW or EQ2 or LOTRO style of skill based combat. It feels exciting at first and grows boring VERY fast, because essentially you do the VERY same from early levels to the end. Everything complex is entirely ruled out in such fast paced action combat.
A pity. Another game bites the dust, another big flop in the making. Sigh. 
/discuss
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
Only time will tell. AoC's system was horrible because its fairly a new concept to shy away from the turn/tick-based combat. If Champions has a way to take that combat a step further... it may just be more fun than the combat AoC had. Besides, remember that AoC is a low-magic world where most everything is a bore-tastic melee fest. Champions have more powers and effects than AoC ever will, since they're superheroes after all.
I for one am happy it's not going to be a COH/COV clone. That is a good thing.
El...you're just like Mikey.... you hate everything.
I don't think COX was all that deep to begin with from a tactial standpoint, not much to lose really by trying something different.
Might be a good idea to see how it all plays out before judging it though.
Who the hell are you, and why should I care?
Congrats! You are a victim of Trollstar!
Ah I think you are just being a drama queen. Super Hero's aren't slow they are fast, strong, and their fights are epic and almost always destroy buildings. They are going in a direction to best represent a super hero game. AoC was a fine combat system, and it's downfall has nothing to do with the combat. WoW, EQ2, LoTRO strategic? You get your 5-10 key attacks, you set them up on your numpad 0-9 keys and tell me how many times in a game session you repeatedly press the same key combos. That combat is boring, and slow. It takes away the ability for any skill to prevail and it makes a game completely gear based when any moron can press a key every 4 seconds.
I say keep experimenting and pushing the boundaries. The same old crap is the same old crap and it is getting old fast. WoW, EQ2, etc. system is dying, and even Blizzards new MMO is probably going to feature more action oriented combat since they were hiring for projectile programmers.
If you want the same old crap then you have all of the games out right now to choose from. Don't predict a games success on one small element or you will just make yourself look foolish. If the game flops it won't be because of just the combat system.
This is exactly what I felt as well. In order to execute a power or move, it was simply too many keystrokes for that to happen. I don’t want to have to hit the keys “3-1-2-e-q” in order to do a shield bash. I want to concentrate more on the strategy of which powers I need to use in order to survive instead of which key sequence I need to execute in order to simply active a power.
Oh whatever, I can't possibly be made to believe that what Jack Emmert says the game is going to be like is what the game will actually be like. I wish developers would just keep quiet and perfect their product instead of yammering on about features that don't wind up making it into launch.
Blocking, duking, action RPG this or that, blah blah blah. . . from the gameplay footage released on gamespot, it seems like the bad guys do nothing but stand around waiting for the hero to make them dead.
The game doesn't have a release date. I'll decide whether to love or hate it when the time comes.
Ah I think you are just being a drama queen. <cut>
This.
I have to agree with you. I don't mind MMOFPS titles, if they are honest MMOFPS titles. Either make a game a full blown FPS or RPG. I have yet to see well made hybrid MMO.
A game in the style of Bioshock could be viable, however. I would definitely play that.
In the one of the last articles I linked to, they mentioned how the developers enjoyed playing it with a usb controller on the pc. blech.
I dont know since when voicing MY personal opinion is a drama. *shrug* I just say how I view the ideas stated in this interview. I *personally* dont like fast paced action gaming. It doesnt mean such style is bad, its just not my kind of game. Thats neither drama nor whining, its a statement about MY preferrences.
What I see is, there are basically two ways to make any game, either you make a character whose power is based on the skills of the character, OR it is based on the skill of the PLAYER. The latter would be in the extreme a game like Tekken or Soul Calibur.
Now my philosphy is, if it aint broken dont fix it, and from my taste and my perception how successful "classic" MMO combat is in MMORPGs, I dont see the logic in making a MMORPG based on the players skill like a Tekken game. The only game we know recently doing that is AoC. I play AoC, for a while and while it has some strengths I also see its flaws. From my perspective this so called fast paced action combat is a great reduction of strategy, for a human can only react so and so fast. I mean, sure if your target audience is the Coutertriker and Unreal Tournament audience, thats fine. I however recall vividly a MMO who tried to change from classic MMO combat towards action combat, and that change was called the NGE.
The "great novelty" of the AoC and the action combat of Tabula Rasa is nothing than, more or less, the SWG-NGE did: going away from many, diverse and complex skill, and focussing the combat on the abilities of the PLAYER instead of the CHARACTER. This is a fundamental change in MMORPG design and gameplay. I mean, you are free to welcome it or not, thats not my point. My point is, it sounds a lot more like Couterstrike than Everquest or WOW or LOTRO now, and I just feel thats a pity for a game I had high on the list. Sure, I am going to try it out, maybe I even play it a while, but I find this choice highly unfortunate for my personal game taste, and beyond that I feel it is also a mistake that will cost them greatly. A lot of MMORPG players are highly conservative. The word alone, RPG, implies you build a CHARACTER and base your combat on this very character's skills, in a D&D-like fashion. IF they insert duck and cover, avoid and deflect like in Conan, it will not be as choice, you will HAVE to use them in order to survive. That all sounds a lot like The Agency, which essentially also is practically a Counterstike-online game, as I see it.
I find this decision highly questionable. First, as I said, I think the majority of MMORPG players is conservative, no matter how vocal some other people here may be. Second, most people who love to play action games will likely stay in Counterstrike or whatever is fashion then, simply because thats for free. An action MMO does only make sense, when it is focussed on PVP, and a PVE action game can become very dull very fast, as the tragic history of Tabula Rasa shows very well. I shall take this interview with a grain of salt, who knows what will be in reality, but if it is as it sounds... I fear this game will fall in a niche just as Tabula Rasa and the like did.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Since I am an old geezer, MIkey actually tried EVERYTHING. That's why he tried Life cereal.
Anyway, I think this game looks awesome! Kind of like a MMO version of Marvel Ultimate Alliance.
Very promising
Well, If you are talking about CoH/CoV, I am not sure what strategy you are referring too. Basically you just set up your attack chains and then execute one power after the next until everything is dead (uhm, 'arrested'). Even for controllers, you just make sure to do a group hold before your individual attacks and holds. Or if you have a pet, then just let your pet run wild and buff your pet.
The closest thing I can recall to actual strategy during combat was when I was soloing a kinetics defender and had to choose between getting an extra siphon power in, using siphon speed, or throwing an attack. Kinetics has so many combat options that it is sometimes impossible to fit everything in, especially if you are using transference as a ghetto hold.
The strategy in CoH is in choosing and slotting your powers. Once in combat, pretty much the only choice that might affect the outcome of a fight is whether to use an inspiration or not.
IMO, anything they can do to make combat less mechanical is a good thing. Using combinations and terrain effects is definitely one option. However, when it comes to full out Tekken style combat in a networked game, the serious fly in the ointment is lag. Maybe with creative use of instanced combat you can get around that problem, but I don't think the solution is obvious.
BTW, CoH is already pretty joypad friendly. I have been using one for a while. I find it's lot easier on my wrists then hitting the num keys all the time.
~nox
Wait... people actually enjoy standing still and clicking little buttons while little words like "dodge" and "evade" float over their heads, instead of actually... dodging and evading? You'd rather have slow-paced, weak WoW-style combat over something that may get the blood pumping?
They are trying tot ap into the console market, plaina dn simple. So far the only mmo on the console is final fantasy. IF they maange to find a balance that will allow pc and console to coincide on the mmo field they will be much more successful.
I dont mind the action feel, aslong as i can use my keyboard.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Too slow to keep up with actual skilled players? I am glad it isn't RPG combat. RPG combat is first gen, it's time to take the next logical step forward to a realistic MMO. I want to control what happens in combat, not relying on hotkeys to do it for me.
Yeah, that's too bad. It's based on a pen and paper roleplaying game system. What a way to kick your roots in the teeth to turn from the ultimate strategy based combat style of a pen and paper combat system to a twitch-tastic button-masher.
Though at least, unlike Age of Conan, it's character generation system will possibly give it something to sell itself instead of the two-trick pony of Conan: "decapitations" and "female nipples." I mean have you guys seen the recent Conan banner ads on this site? So sad.
lets face it .. coh is a mmo for people that dont want to think ... no stats no skills just pick A and B and go and fight more .. i like a game that u have to think of what skills and stats to change ... and no click button on auto.. and come back your a lvl up ... looking there im lvled ... i like there ideas on it ... better then mmos out there ...
MMO players: One of many groups in the world that cries that they never get anything new, and then when somebody tries something new, a vocal minority cries about it and gets it changed back to the way that had everybody complaining in the first place.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
I love action rpgs. Sounds great.
BTW, mmos are way more action based, than your typical turn-based computer rpgs. Not sure what you're whining about, and I doubt you do, either.
I'm all for action mmorpgs. Anyone who tries to evolve the genre is a hero in my eyes.
I agree. COH/COV did a lot of things right. I loved the sidekick system and always thought more MMOs should do something similar. I only stopped playing because of all the issues I had with Vista and running the game.
action combat is the way to go imo. get away from boring auto attack crap and do the fighting yourself. age of conan just didn't go far enough away from slow auto attack stuff.
die.
Well if you can't handle the Action sort of game play stick with CoX, point and click all the way to your heart's desire, personally I'm glad that Champions will be an Action rpg, I played Cox, lotro & wow and watched the little click's recycle around so I can press it again, it's boring and makes you miss the action that's on the screen, why because I'm to busy watching and waiting for a click's to recycle again so I can make one of these "complex" attacks.
We already have enough "WoW' clone mmorpg's we Don't Need any CoX clone's.
agree, 100%
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
What's wrong with a little action in combat? Nothing is more boring than combat in EQ2. I'm happy at the idea of little more interaction.
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