Of course, Mythic could screw it up. If the scenarios are the quickest and easiest way to accrue the benefits of RvR, then Open World PvP will suffer. Just like the stupid Arena system made any other form of PvP in WoW a waste of time. There are many ways that Mythic can head this off, though. I think that it would be best to wait and see if scenarios are "easy mode" RvR and detract from the open world experience or if Mythic puts barriers in place to keep the power players from using the casual, instanced system to hasten progression instead of taking in all aspects of the RvR if they have the time.
This is exactly the way I see it. Time will only tell. But I'm still a bit nervous since the designers seem more inclined toward instances.
I honestly don't see the selling point of Scenarios over WoW BGs. When you look at the core of it (without all the extra frills that WAR adds on), they're both basically the same thing: Instances for people to farm RPs. You can say "oh but there's purpose!" all you want, but after awhile, I can guarantee you that most people in those scenarios will only care about one thing and one thing only: RPs (and phat lootz by extension). The way I see it, Open World RvR is a 180 degree difference from WoW and should be its strongest selling point. I just hope the designers don't get too blinded by WoW's success to see that.
I have nothing against casual players.
But instances that will cater to the casual players may end up sucking the life out of everything else. May is the operating word becauase honestly we do not know at this point. But history has shown this to be the case.
It is a juggling act that even Blizzard has difficulty maintaining to appease casuals and hardcore players.
man you would be a great politician
Not every game needs to cater to the casual
scenarions suck, open world pvp only
i play aoc and war (lol)
i got nothing against casuals
so tell us, what would you consider a good mix for a game....lets pretend you are a game designer for warhammer, how would you do it oh mr nostradamus of the gaming world?
I would stick to the spirit of RvR play fof Warhammer. If people call it a clone of DAOC so be it at least it doesn't betray what the core RvR play is about.
Of course, Mythic could screw it up. If the scenarios are the quickest and easiest way to accrue the benefits of RvR, then Open World PvP will suffer. Just like the stupid Arena system made any other form of PvP in WoW a waste of time. There are many ways that Mythic can head this off, though. I think that it would be best to wait and see if scenarios are "easy mode" RvR and detract from the open world experience or if Mythic puts barriers in place to keep the power players from using the casual, instanced system to hasten progression instead of taking in all aspects of the RvR if they have the time.
This is exactly the way I see it. Time will only tell. But I'm still a bit nervous since the designers seem more inclined toward instances.
I honestly don't see the selling point of Scenarios over WoW BGs. When you look at the core of it (without all the extra frills that WAR adds on), they're both basically the same thing: Instances for people to farm RPs. You can say "oh but there's purpose!" all you want, but after awhile, I can guarantee you that most people in those scenarios will only care about one thing and one thing only: RPs (and phat lootz by extension). The way I see it, Open World RvR is a 180 degree difference from WoW and should be its strongest selling point. I just hope the designers don't get too blinded by WoW's success to see that.
I have nothing against casual players.
But instances that will cater to the casual players may end up sucking the life out of everything else. May is the operating word becauase honestly we do not know at this point. But history has shown this to be the case.
It is a juggling act that even Blizzard has difficulty maintaining to appease casuals and hardcore players.
man you would be a great politician
Not every game needs to cater to the casual
scenarions suck, open world pvp only
i play aoc and war (lol)
i got nothing against casuals
so tell us, what would you consider a good mix for a game....lets pretend you are a game designer for warhammer, how would you do it oh mr nostradamus of the gaming world?
I would stick to the spirit of RvR play fof Warhammer. If people call it a clone of DAOC so be it at least it doesn't betray what the core RvR play is about.
noone said it was a DAOC clone....all we said is that the game represents DAOC more than WOW. REPRESENTS =/= Clone.
Just like a McDonald's hamburger represents a real hamburger
So you'd spend Millions of dollars to cater to a niche market? Yea...good luck on that bud. You named all these old games like L1 and L2 well guess what not that many Western players populate either of those games because they are UBER grind games of the worst fashion. EQ? Hello the game's population is prettty damn dead these days it pales in comparison what it was, even DAoC does and UO most definitly pales..infact UO IS a casual game.
You can't make a game that needs LOTS of players to cater only to a niche market, not even EvE does that. While it caters to a hardercore pvp market it caters alot to the economic & crafting market players as well, of course its PvP is so hardcore that its not a daily activity either.
WAR's design requires alot of players and you certaintly aren't going to get that by telling players "well if you can't play 3 hours a day there's no way you can ever keep up so go somewhere else".
I'm not defending casual play ... I am defending the right for all players to have activities in a game that matter whether its a hardcore activity or a casual activit MMOS have the ability to cater to BOTH but most would rather Niche themselves or presume they can get everyone to 'try' it and 'like' it which is bullshit and doesn't work.
MMOs are MMOS because they are MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER...if we're all payign 15 dollars we should all have activities to enjoy. If you don't like everyone having something to do in a game then guess what..don't play it.
btw the devs even in the OLD days never defined RvR as a hardcore only PvP open world activity. Only some players who only participated in RvR that way ever considered it that way.
So you'd spend Millions of dollars to cater to a niche market? Yea...good luck on that bud. You named all these old games like L1 and L2 well guess what not that many Western players populate either of those games because they are UBER grind games of the worst fashion. EQ? Hello the game's population is prettty damn dead these days it pales in comparison what it was, even DAoC does and UO most definitly pales..infact UO IS a casual game. You can't make a game that needs LOTS of players to cater only to a niche market, not even EvE does that. While it caters to a hardercore pvp market it caters alot to the economic & crafting market players as well, of course its PvP is so hardcore that its not a daily activity either. WAR's design requires alot of players and you certaintly aren't going to get that by telling players "well if you can't play 3 hours a day there's no way you can ever keep up so go somewhere else". I'm not defending casual play ... I am defending the right for all players to have activities in a game that matter whether its a hardcore activity or a casual activit MMOS have the ability to cater to BOTH but most would rather Niche themselves or presume they can get everyone to 'try' it and 'like' it which is bullshit and doesn't work. MMOs are MMOS because they are MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER...if we're all payign 15 dollars we should all have activities to enjoy. If you don't like everyone having something to do in a game then guess what..don't play it. btw the devs even in the OLD days never defined RvR as a hardcore only PvP open world activity. Only some players who only participated in RvR that way ever considered it that way.
Those "dead games" are still played and still raking in money.
Millions have been spent on trying to cater to casual gamers and lure them away from WoW. How have the results been up to this point? How much money was lost in trying to lure in the casual market?
Funny but these niche games are still around even with the presence of a power house like WoW. I wonder why that is the case....
I guess the question that needs to be answered is...
Which will have more importance in RvR...
Open world PvP or PvP scenarios? If it's Open World PvP, then that's good. If it is PvP scenarios, than that bad because who the hell will want to compete in World PvP where you get better rewards from BG?
Hop...if there are games out there that already cater to the hardcore, that already give the hardcore something and squash equality then why the whine? Why the Whine that 1 game wants to give all types of players a chance to experience something that no other game really has? Whats the big frigging flippity do da damn deal honestly? How does it kill the spirit when RvR is about Realm Pride not "Elitists against everyone else" or "hardcores against casuals" it doesn't even stand as "open vs scenarios" since techincally scenarios didnt' even exist in MMOs when it started.
How does it kill the spirit to Grow with the times and include more people? How does it do that? If your worry is that 5,000 players on a server are only going to play a scenario then your out of your mind..Honestly I'd go crazy and so would anyone else to play the same couple of scenarios over and over and over again and only Open world for Sieging (which is why the game shut down beta last year because PEOPLE HATED IT!)
If you KNEW anything about WAR you'd know its NOT possible to Siege & realm control without Open World and that people who want to Open World & own keeps (which can ONLY be done in open world and are NECESSARY) are going to Open World regardless of scenarios. Your Realm has to Open World RvR in order to Siege. They've said it countless times. RvR is spiritualy intact but like any good concept its evolved to invite more people in to try it. Thats not a bad thing. A bad thing is being a close minded elitist jerk. (no im not flaming its just an example).
I'm sorry I just can't follow your attitude..honestly I think you just enjoy being hardcore and only wanting people to cater to you. Your no different than the Raiders which is sad honestly. I applaud Mythic for reaching to everyone and giving everyone a fair chance to have a good time. Peace out and enjoy Lineage 2 tell al the gankers and grinders hello for me.
Hop...if there are games out there that already cater to the hardcore, that already give the hardcore something and squash equality then why the whine? Why the Whine that 1 game wants to give all types of players a chance to experience something that no other game really has? Whats the big frigging flippity do da damn deal honestly? How does it kill the spirit when RvR is about Realm Pride not "Elitists against everyone else" or "hardcores against casuals" it doesn't even stand as "open vs scenarios" since techincally scenarios didnt' even exist in MMOs when it started. How does it kill the spirit to Grow with the times and include more people? How does it do that? If your worry is that 5,000 players on a server are only going to play a scenario then your out of your mind..Honestly I'd go crazy and so would anyone else to play the same couple of scenarios over and over and over again and only Open world for Sieging (which is why the game shut down beta last year because PEOPLE HATED IT!) If you KNEW anything about WAR you'd know its NOT possible to Siege & realm control without Open World and that people who want to Open World & own keeps (which can ONLY be done in open world and are NECESSARY) are going to Open World regardless of scenarios. Your Realm has to Open World RvR in order to Siege. They've said it countless times. RvR is spiritualy intact but like any good concept its evolved to invite more people in to try it. Thats not a bad thing. A bad thing is being a close minded elitist jerk. (no im not flaming its just an example). I'm sorry I just can't follow your attitude..honestly I think you just enjoy being hardcore and only wanting people to cater to you. Your no different than the Raiders which is sad honestly. I applaud Mythic for reaching to everyone and giving everyone a fair chance to have a good time. Peace out and enjoy Lineage 2 tell al the gankers and grinders hello for me.
The point is not that they should only cater to the open world enthusiasts, the point is that Open World RvR should get the main FOCUS over instanced BGs. Right now, with the designers attitude about things, it seems to be backwards: Instanced over Open. Hell, even the ENTIRE City Siege is all instanced as it stands. The entire city is just one big fat collection of instances in City Siege. So when you roll up on a city, you get a menu of INSTANCES of the city to choose from. Each instance is limited to 50-to-75 vs. 50-to-75. Which basically breeds complete chaos since Guilds and Open Groups are sure to get separated. Now I ask you, HOW LAME IS THAT?! All of this has been discussed in the Massively article recently (which is entirely accurate). Which just goes to prove my suspicions about the designers all along: They want to focus on instances over Open.
Hop...if there are games out there that already cater to the hardcore, that already give the hardcore something and squash equality then why the whine? Why the Whine that 1 game wants to give all types of players a chance to experience something that no other game really has? Whats the big frigging flippity do da damn deal honestly? How does it kill the spirit when RvR is about Realm Pride not "Elitists against everyone else" or "hardcores against casuals" it doesn't even stand as "open vs scenarios" since techincally scenarios didnt' even exist in MMOs when it started. How does it kill the spirit to Grow with the times and include more people? How does it do that? If your worry is that 5,000 players on a server are only going to play a scenario then your out of your mind..Honestly I'd go crazy and so would anyone else to play the same couple of scenarios over and over and over again and only Open world for Sieging (which is why the game shut down beta last year because PEOPLE HATED IT!) If you KNEW anything about WAR you'd know its NOT possible to Siege & realm control without Open World and that people who want to Open World & own keeps (which can ONLY be done in open world and are NECESSARY) are going to Open World regardless of scenarios. Your Realm has to Open World RvR in order to Siege. They've said it countless times. RvR is spiritualy intact but like any good concept its evolved to invite more people in to try it. Thats not a bad thing. A bad thing is being a close minded elitist jerk. (no im not flaming its just an example). I'm sorry I just can't follow your attitude..honestly I think you just enjoy being hardcore and only wanting people to cater to you. Your no different than the Raiders which is sad honestly. I applaud Mythic for reaching to everyone and giving everyone a fair chance to have a good time. Peace out and enjoy Lineage 2 tell al the gankers and grinders hello for me.
The point is not that they should only cater to the open world enthusiasts, the point is that Open World RvR should get the main FOCUS over instanced BGs. Right now, with the designers attitude about things, it seems to be backwards: Instanced over Open. Hell, even the ENTIRE City Siege is all instanced as it stands. The entire city is just one big fat collection of instances in City Siege. So when you roll up on a city, you get a menu of INSTANCES of the city to choose from. Each instance is limited to 50-to-75 vs. 50-to-75. Which basically breeds complete chaos since Guilds and Open Groups are sure to get separated. Now I ask you, HOW LAME IS THAT?! All of this has been discussed in the Massively article recently (which is entirely accurate). Which just goes to prove my suspicions about the designers all alone: They want to focus on instances over Open.
1 part of the city siege is instances, so everyone can have a shot at it and play it.
I guess the question that needs to be answered is...
Which will have more importance in RvR...
Open world PvP or PvP scenarios? If it's Open World PvP, then that's good. If it is PvP scenarios, than that bad because who the hell will want to compete in World PvP where you get better rewards from BG?
You'd be surprised how many people would rather play Open PvP over phat lewt.
Are you kidding me? People only care about phat lewts. Look how WoW's world pvp is non-existant. People play Arena and BGs to get the phat lewts.
So which is it....
Is Open World PvP the main focus of WAR or are the BGs? If it's the latter, that's sad.
I guess the question that needs to be answered is...
Which will have more importance in RvR...
Open world PvP or PvP scenarios? If it's Open World PvP, then that's good. If it is PvP scenarios, than that bad because who the hell will want to compete in World PvP where you get better rewards from BG?
You'd be surprised how many people would rather play Open PvP over phat lewt.
Are you kidding me? People only care about phat lewts. Look how WoW's world pvp is non-existant. People play Arena and BGs to get the phat lewts.
So which is it....
Is Open World PvP the main focus of WAR or are the BGs? If it's the latter, that's sad.
but your epixxx aren't as important in this game. a level 40 in average armor could beat a level 40 in the best armor if the know their career and have some skill. It's not like WoW where a full out season 4 could take 5 full out season 2s and not break a sweat.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
As far as I am aware Mythic has already addressed this. That is why they put in keeps and why the keep lords will drop the best PvP chest peices for their teir. Between that and the incentive for guilds to take the keeps I feel plenty complled to engage in the Open World RvR whenever I have the time. When I don't have the time then sure, I'll due senarios or maybe just a PvP quest or two. As for the planning of sieges that is why they have guilds. All it takes is a dedicated enough guild leadership to organize those sorts of things.
Originally posted by demren Scenarios is just more battleground bs with a different name. Up until EA's take over and pr blitz RvR has always meant massive open world pvp. Slowly but ever increasingly they have been changing the definition of RvR to mean something more scenario oriented. In press releases and demonstrations RvR is now about scenarios mostly and nothing is mentioned about open pvp unless someone presses the issue directly. With what over 12 scenarios that we do know about in WAR not including the cityseige scenarios, it seems most likely that, for those of us expecting open world pvp, the rug has been quietly pulled out from under us. Edit: Fixed incorrect spelling in title of post.
Okay, 1st of all, the Instanced PvP ( Scenario's ) was in the game way before EA bought Mythic.
I believe it was after EA bought Mythic, that Mythic introduced Keeps, and beefed up World RvR. Not that EA had anything to do with it. So far EA has had 0 input into the creative process, besides perhaps that Mythic now can hire some more programmers or get certain programming tools they could not get before due to limited funds, and that they are still developing atm. ( If EA hadnt bought Mythic, then the game would have been release prematurely )
Now I agree that Instanced PvP isn't as fun as World RvR. And I would rather not have it in game either. They serve no real purpose, besides allowing people to get into a quick battle.
However instanced PvP is not made for the casuals, if one would think that, they will be disapointed as they will get steamrolled by the 6-man gank squads ( aka premades ). Unless if Instanced PvP gives slightly less personal benefit per hour than World RvR. In that case the Hardcore will play more World RvR and the Casuals will be able to do a quick instanced PvP battle. And in World RvR the Casuals can always run with the Zerg so they won't get steamrolled by the 6-man gank squads all the time.
Now the argument that Instanced PvP solves Realm population balance is also completely incorrect. If there are any balance issues between order and destruction, then Instanced PvP will not solve these. The underdog realm will play alot of Instanced PvP, so that the stronger realm will dominate the World RvR even more. Okay so underdog realms will be able to win in Instanced PvP, but will loose the Campaign in World RvR. So not a real solution.
However, as stated before, Mythic has several solutions for population balance issues : 1. Players will know what realms are ok to join and which onces are overpopulated, so they can avoid queues ( see point 3 ). 2. Encouragements, players will get bonusses for joining underpopulated realms, so when the difference in population is like 60 - 40, the underdog gets bonus xp, etc. 3. Hard caps, like there were queues in WoW when the servers were overloaded, there will be queues when realms are overloaded. This in itself is a very good solution, because when the balance is for example 70 - 30 the server will lockdown the overpop realm.
Okay I am digressing
Basically, I don't like Instanced PvP, but if it earns slightly less personal rewards vs World RvR, then I can live with it, and only then will the Casuals benefit from it.
Greetz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Scenarios is just more battleground bs with a different name. Up until EA's take over and pr blitz RvR has always meant massive open world pvp. Slowly but ever increasingly they have been changing the definition of RvR to mean something more scenario oriented. In press releases and demonstrations RvR is now about scenarios mostly and nothing is mentioned about open pvp unless someone presses the issue directly. With what over 12 scenarios that we do know about in WAR not including the cityseige scenarios, it seems most likely that, for those of us expecting open world pvp, the rug has been quietly pulled out from under us.
Edit: Fixed incorrect spelling in title of post.
Okay, 1st of all, the Instanced PvP ( Scenario's ) was in the game way before EA bought Mythic.
I believe it was after EA bought Mythic, that Mythic introduced Keeps, and beefed up World RvR. Not that EA had anything to do with it. So far EA has had 0 input into the creative process, besides perhaps that Mythic now can hire some more programmers or get certain programming tools they could not get before due to limited funds, and that they are still developing atm. ( If EA hadnt bought Mythic, then the game would have been release prematurely )
Now I agree that Instanced PvP isn't as fun as World RvR. And I would rather not have it in game either. They serve no real purpose, besides allowing people to get into a quick battle.
However instanced PvP is not made for the casuals, if one would think that, they will be disapointed as they will get steamrolled by the 6-man gank squads ( aka premades ). Unless if Instanced PvP gives slightly less personal benefit per hour than World RvR. In that case the Hardcore will play more World RvR and the Casuals will be able to do a quick instanced PvP battle. And in World RvR the Casuals can always run with the Zerg so they won't get steamrolled by the 6-man gank squads all the time.
Now the argument that Instanced PvP solves Realm population balance is also completely incorrect. If there are any balance issues between order and destruction, then Instanced PvP will not solve these. The underdog realm will play alot of Instanced PvP, so that the stronger realm will dominate the World RvR even more. Okay so underdog realms will be able to win in Instanced PvP, but will loose the Campaign in World RvR. So not a real solution.
However, as stated before, Mythic has several solutions for population balance issues :
1. Players will know what realms are ok to join and which onces are overpopulated, so they can avoid queues ( see point 3 ).
2. Encouragements, players will get bonusses for joining underpopulated realms, so when the difference in population is like 60 - 40, the underdog gets bonus xp, etc.
3. Hard caps, like there were queues in WoW when the servers were overloaded, there will be queues when realms are overloaded. This in itself is a very good solution, because when the balance is for example 70 - 30 the server will lockdown the overpop realm.
Okay I am digressing
Basically, I don't like Instanced PvP, but if it earns slightly less personal rewards vs World RvR, then I can live with it, and only then will the Casuals benefit from it.
Greetz
As said before, none of those population "solutions" solve anything unless the overall interest is already about 50-50 balance to begin with.
Real overpopulation, eg more people simply wanting to play Destruction rather than Order would either mean you end up creating servers at the top (after order runs out) that have all destruction and hardly any order *or* you force them to play a side they hadn't planned on or want. (yes I don't believe a majority wants to switch sides easily just for the benefits, especially if they have friends on the destruction side already which, with more people wanting to play there makes it all the more likely. ^^)
but your epixxx aren't as important in this game. a level 40 in average armor could beat a level 40 in the best armor if the know their career and have some skill. It's not like WoW where a full out season 4 could take 5 full out season 2s and not break a sweat.
They've stated gear acounts for 40% of your stats, pretty similar to WoW. Also someone in S2 can beat someone in S4 gear without breaking a sweat. It's all about skill once you have decent pvp gear.
Comments
This is exactly the way I see it. Time will only tell. But I'm still a bit nervous since the designers seem more inclined toward instances.
I honestly don't see the selling point of Scenarios over WoW BGs. When you look at the core of it (without all the extra frills that WAR adds on), they're both basically the same thing: Instances for people to farm RPs. You can say "oh but there's purpose!" all you want, but after awhile, I can guarantee you that most people in those scenarios will only care about one thing and one thing only: RPs (and phat lootz by extension). The way I see it, Open World RvR is a 180 degree difference from WoW and should be its strongest selling point. I just hope the designers don't get too blinded by WoW's success to see that.
I have nothing against casual players.
But instances that will cater to the casual players may end up sucking the life out of everything else. May is the operating word becauase honestly we do not know at this point. But history has shown this to be the case.
It is a juggling act that even Blizzard has difficulty maintaining to appease casuals and hardcore players.
man you would be a great politician
Not every game needs to cater to the casual
scenarions suck, open world pvp only
i play aoc and war (lol)
i got nothing against casuals
so tell us, what would you consider a good mix for a game....lets pretend you are a game designer for warhammer, how would you do it oh mr nostradamus of the gaming world?
I would stick to the spirit of RvR play fof Warhammer. If people call it a clone of DAOC so be it at least it doesn't betray what the core RvR play is about.
This is exactly the way I see it. Time will only tell. But I'm still a bit nervous since the designers seem more inclined toward instances.
I honestly don't see the selling point of Scenarios over WoW BGs. When you look at the core of it (without all the extra frills that WAR adds on), they're both basically the same thing: Instances for people to farm RPs. You can say "oh but there's purpose!" all you want, but after awhile, I can guarantee you that most people in those scenarios will only care about one thing and one thing only: RPs (and phat lootz by extension). The way I see it, Open World RvR is a 180 degree difference from WoW and should be its strongest selling point. I just hope the designers don't get too blinded by WoW's success to see that.
I have nothing against casual players.
But instances that will cater to the casual players may end up sucking the life out of everything else. May is the operating word becauase honestly we do not know at this point. But history has shown this to be the case.
It is a juggling act that even Blizzard has difficulty maintaining to appease casuals and hardcore players.
man you would be a great politician
Not every game needs to cater to the casual
scenarions suck, open world pvp only
i play aoc and war (lol)
i got nothing against casuals
so tell us, what would you consider a good mix for a game....lets pretend you are a game designer for warhammer, how would you do it oh mr nostradamus of the gaming world?
I would stick to the spirit of RvR play fof Warhammer. If people call it a clone of DAOC so be it at least it doesn't betray what the core RvR play is about.
noone said it was a DAOC clone....all we said is that the game represents DAOC more than WOW. REPRESENTS =/= Clone.
Just like a McDonald's hamburger represents a real hamburger
So you'd spend Millions of dollars to cater to a niche market? Yea...good luck on that bud. You named all these old games like L1 and L2 well guess what not that many Western players populate either of those games because they are UBER grind games of the worst fashion. EQ? Hello the game's population is prettty damn dead these days it pales in comparison what it was, even DAoC does and UO most definitly pales..infact UO IS a casual game.
You can't make a game that needs LOTS of players to cater only to a niche market, not even EvE does that. While it caters to a hardercore pvp market it caters alot to the economic & crafting market players as well, of course its PvP is so hardcore that its not a daily activity either.
WAR's design requires alot of players and you certaintly aren't going to get that by telling players "well if you can't play 3 hours a day there's no way you can ever keep up so go somewhere else".
I'm not defending casual play ... I am defending the right for all players to have activities in a game that matter whether its a hardcore activity or a casual activit MMOS have the ability to cater to BOTH but most would rather Niche themselves or presume they can get everyone to 'try' it and 'like' it which is bullshit and doesn't work.
MMOs are MMOS because they are MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER...if we're all payign 15 dollars we should all have activities to enjoy. If you don't like everyone having something to do in a game then guess what..don't play it.
btw the devs even in the OLD days never defined RvR as a hardcore only PvP open world activity. Only some players who only participated in RvR that way ever considered it that way.
Those "dead games" are still played and still raking in money.
Millions have been spent on trying to cater to casual gamers and lure them away from WoW. How have the results been up to this point? How much money was lost in trying to lure in the casual market?
Funny but these niche games are still around even with the presence of a power house like WoW. I wonder why that is the case....
I guess the question that needs to be answered is...
Which will have more importance in RvR...
Open world PvP or PvP scenarios? If it's Open World PvP, then that's good. If it is PvP scenarios, than that bad because who the hell will want to compete in World PvP where you get better rewards from BG?
Hop...if there are games out there that already cater to the hardcore, that already give the hardcore something and squash equality then why the whine? Why the Whine that 1 game wants to give all types of players a chance to experience something that no other game really has? Whats the big frigging flippity do da damn deal honestly? How does it kill the spirit when RvR is about Realm Pride not "Elitists against everyone else" or "hardcores against casuals" it doesn't even stand as "open vs scenarios" since techincally scenarios didnt' even exist in MMOs when it started.
How does it kill the spirit to Grow with the times and include more people? How does it do that? If your worry is that 5,000 players on a server are only going to play a scenario then your out of your mind..Honestly I'd go crazy and so would anyone else to play the same couple of scenarios over and over and over again and only Open world for Sieging (which is why the game shut down beta last year because PEOPLE HATED IT!)
If you KNEW anything about WAR you'd know its NOT possible to Siege & realm control without Open World and that people who want to Open World & own keeps (which can ONLY be done in open world and are NECESSARY) are going to Open World regardless of scenarios. Your Realm has to Open World RvR in order to Siege. They've said it countless times. RvR is spiritualy intact but like any good concept its evolved to invite more people in to try it. Thats not a bad thing. A bad thing is being a close minded elitist jerk. (no im not flaming its just an example).
I'm sorry I just can't follow your attitude..honestly I think you just enjoy being hardcore and only wanting people to cater to you. Your no different than the Raiders which is sad honestly. I applaud Mythic for reaching to everyone and giving everyone a fair chance to have a good time. Peace out and enjoy Lineage 2 tell al the gankers and grinders hello for me.
The point is not that they should only cater to the open world enthusiasts, the point is that Open World RvR should get the main FOCUS over instanced BGs. Right now, with the designers attitude about things, it seems to be backwards: Instanced over Open. Hell, even the ENTIRE City Siege is all instanced as it stands. The entire city is just one big fat collection of instances in City Siege. So when you roll up on a city, you get a menu of INSTANCES of the city to choose from. Each instance is limited to 50-to-75 vs. 50-to-75. Which basically breeds complete chaos since Guilds and Open Groups are sure to get separated. Now I ask you, HOW LAME IS THAT?! All of this has been discussed in the Massively article recently (which is entirely accurate). Which just goes to prove my suspicions about the designers all along: They want to focus on instances over Open.
The point is not that they should only cater to the open world enthusiasts, the point is that Open World RvR should get the main FOCUS over instanced BGs. Right now, with the designers attitude about things, it seems to be backwards: Instanced over Open. Hell, even the ENTIRE City Siege is all instanced as it stands. The entire city is just one big fat collection of instances in City Siege. So when you roll up on a city, you get a menu of INSTANCES of the city to choose from. Each instance is limited to 50-to-75 vs. 50-to-75. Which basically breeds complete chaos since Guilds and Open Groups are sure to get separated. Now I ask you, HOW LAME IS THAT?! All of this has been discussed in the Massively article recently (which is entirely accurate). Which just goes to prove my suspicions about the designers all alone: They want to focus on instances over Open.
1 part of the city siege is instances, so everyone can have a shot at it and play it.
You'd be surprised how many people would rather play Open PvP over phat lewt.
Are you kidding me? People only care about phat lewts. Look how WoW's world pvp is non-existant. People play Arena and BGs to get the phat lewts.
So which is it....
Is Open World PvP the main focus of WAR or are the BGs? If it's the latter, that's sad.
You'd be surprised how many people would rather play Open PvP over phat lewt.
Are you kidding me? People only care about phat lewts. Look how WoW's world pvp is non-existant. People play Arena and BGs to get the phat lewts.
So which is it....
Is Open World PvP the main focus of WAR or are the BGs? If it's the latter, that's sad.
but your epixxx aren't as important in this game. a level 40 in average armor could beat a level 40 in the best armor if the know their career and have some skill. It's not like WoW where a full out season 4 could take 5 full out season 2s and not break a sweat.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
As far as I am aware Mythic has already addressed this. That is why they put in keeps and why the keep lords will drop the best PvP chest peices for their teir. Between that and the incentive for guilds to take the keeps I feel plenty complled to engage in the Open World RvR whenever I have the time. When I don't have the time then sure, I'll due senarios or maybe just a PvP quest or two. As for the planning of sieges that is why they have guilds. All it takes is a dedicated enough guild leadership to organize those sorts of things.
Games I've Played: WoW, FFXI, SWG, CoH, EVE Online
Games I'm Waiting for: WAR, Stargate Worlds
Okay, 1st of all, the Instanced PvP ( Scenario's ) was in the game way before EA bought Mythic.
I believe it was after EA bought Mythic, that Mythic introduced Keeps, and beefed up World RvR. Not that EA had anything to do with it. So far EA has had 0 input into the creative process, besides perhaps that Mythic now can hire some more programmers or get certain programming tools they could not get before due to limited funds, and that they are still developing atm. ( If EA hadnt bought Mythic, then the game would have been release prematurely )
Now I agree that Instanced PvP isn't as fun as World RvR. And I would rather not have it in game either. They serve no real purpose, besides allowing people to get into a quick battle.
However instanced PvP is not made for the casuals, if one would think that, they will be disapointed as they will get steamrolled by the 6-man gank squads ( aka premades ). Unless if Instanced PvP gives slightly less personal benefit per hour than World RvR. In that case the Hardcore will play more World RvR and the Casuals will be able to do a quick instanced PvP battle. And in World RvR the Casuals can always run with the Zerg so they won't get steamrolled by the 6-man gank squads all the time.
Now the argument that Instanced PvP solves Realm population balance is also completely incorrect. If there are any balance issues between order and destruction, then Instanced PvP will not solve these. The underdog realm will play alot of Instanced PvP, so that the stronger realm will dominate the World RvR even more. Okay so underdog realms will be able to win in Instanced PvP, but will loose the Campaign in World RvR. So not a real solution.
However, as stated before, Mythic has several solutions for population balance issues :
1. Players will know what realms are ok to join and which onces are overpopulated, so they can avoid queues ( see point 3 ).
2. Encouragements, players will get bonusses for joining underpopulated realms, so when the difference in population is like 60 - 40, the underdog gets bonus xp, etc.
3. Hard caps, like there were queues in WoW when the servers were overloaded, there will be queues when realms are overloaded. This in itself is a very good solution, because when the balance is for example 70 - 30 the server will lockdown the overpop realm.
Okay I am digressing
Basically, I don't like Instanced PvP, but if it earns slightly less personal rewards vs World RvR, then I can live with it, and only then will the Casuals benefit from it.
Greetz
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Okay, 1st of all, the Instanced PvP ( Scenario's ) was in the game way before EA bought Mythic.
I believe it was after EA bought Mythic, that Mythic introduced Keeps, and beefed up World RvR. Not that EA had anything to do with it. So far EA has had 0 input into the creative process, besides perhaps that Mythic now can hire some more programmers or get certain programming tools they could not get before due to limited funds, and that they are still developing atm. ( If EA hadnt bought Mythic, then the game would have been release prematurely )
Now I agree that Instanced PvP isn't as fun as World RvR. And I would rather not have it in game either. They serve no real purpose, besides allowing people to get into a quick battle.
However instanced PvP is not made for the casuals, if one would think that, they will be disapointed as they will get steamrolled by the 6-man gank squads ( aka premades ). Unless if Instanced PvP gives slightly less personal benefit per hour than World RvR. In that case the Hardcore will play more World RvR and the Casuals will be able to do a quick instanced PvP battle. And in World RvR the Casuals can always run with the Zerg so they won't get steamrolled by the 6-man gank squads all the time.
Now the argument that Instanced PvP solves Realm population balance is also completely incorrect. If there are any balance issues between order and destruction, then Instanced PvP will not solve these. The underdog realm will play alot of Instanced PvP, so that the stronger realm will dominate the World RvR even more. Okay so underdog realms will be able to win in Instanced PvP, but will loose the Campaign in World RvR. So not a real solution.
However, as stated before, Mythic has several solutions for population balance issues :
1. Players will know what realms are ok to join and which onces are overpopulated, so they can avoid queues ( see point 3 ).
2. Encouragements, players will get bonusses for joining underpopulated realms, so when the difference in population is like 60 - 40, the underdog gets bonus xp, etc.
3. Hard caps, like there were queues in WoW when the servers were overloaded, there will be queues when realms are overloaded. This in itself is a very good solution, because when the balance is for example 70 - 30 the server will lockdown the overpop realm.
Okay I am digressing
Basically, I don't like Instanced PvP, but if it earns slightly less personal rewards vs World RvR, then I can live with it, and only then will the Casuals benefit from it.
Greetz
As said before, none of those population "solutions" solve anything unless the overall interest is already about 50-50 balance to begin with.
Real overpopulation, eg more people simply wanting to play Destruction rather than Order would either mean you end up creating servers at the top (after order runs out) that have all destruction and hardly any order *or* you force them to play a side they hadn't planned on or want. (yes I don't believe a majority wants to switch sides easily just for the benefits, especially if they have friends on the destruction side already which, with more people wanting to play there makes it all the more likely. ^^)
They've stated gear acounts for 40% of your stats, pretty similar to WoW. Also someone in S2 can beat someone in S4 gear without breaking a sweat. It's all about skill once you have decent pvp gear.
Realm vs Realm.
Anyways, players and npcs will be involded. So what? Its WAR!