I won't play the game regardless of how they develop it. After playing SWG for 3 years prior to the NGE, I don't think I can put up with another second of the Star Wars franchise. And no I didn't really like KOTOR. I found Mass Effect more appealing as a Science Fiction story.
Looks like Bioware can lean back and be happy that there are still an amount of people who wouldnt mind paying for a linear, non-pvp, story based, non-sandbox wow clone ....
While OP is being somewhat dramatic I'd say that there is some truth here.
Bioware is known for making great CRPGs..... which are a completely different ballgame than MMORPGs.
If they try to simply copy-paste gameplay principles that made their single-player RPGs great into a MMORPG they'll very probably fail miserably... regardless of the rest of the gameplay's quality.
A recent example is AoC: Single player <> Multiplayer.
You can't build a game on single-player paradigm, slap multiplayer capability on it and call it a MMO. It doesn't work that way. MMORPGs intrinsically abhor "hero's journey" paradigm that is bread and butter to single-player RPGs.
My hopes for this title aren't very high, to say the least, not until I see the way they plan to configure the game as a whole.
But sandbox is the way to go! I'm serious! Why do you think that the MMO market is stagnating right now?
Lemme see, log in, pick a race, tweak my looks from five different faces, pick a class, start leveling, do quests to gather x/kill y/speak to z, rinse/repeat, until you get to higher levels, then you raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, pvp, raid, raid, raid, craft (maybe), raid, raid, raid, pvp, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, pvp, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, pvp, raid, raid and raid some more.
And people wonder why they are bored with the current offering of steaming shit...er....I mean MMORPG's that are on the market now?
I'm not saying I'm the type to take advantage of all the aspects of a sandbox game, but it's nice to know there are different options there. Where the hell did the R (which is for Roleplaying kids) go in MMORPG?
Anyhow, if there is a company that can do this right, Bioware is definately one of those companies. These guys always put out top quality products. I'd love to see what they have in store for us.
Originally posted by Draccan Looks like Bioware can lean back and be happy that there are still an amount of people who wouldnt mind paying for a linear, non-pvp, story based, non-sandbox wow clone ....
Shut the hell up you irritating swg veteran. Game is not even out yet. You have no info or screen or videos about it. And already you are bitching on moaning? got too used to complaining i guess.
While OP is being somewhat dramatic I'd say that there is some truth here. Bioware is known for making great CRPGs..... which are a completely different ballgame than MMORPGs. If they try to simply copy-paste gameplay principles that made their single-player RPGs great into a MMORPG they'll very probably fail miserably... regardless of the rest of the gameplay's quality. A recent example is AoC: Single player <> Multiplayer. You can't build a game on single-player paradigm, slap multiplayer capability on it and call it a MMO. It doesn't work that way. MMORPGs intrinsically abhor "hero's journey" paradigm that is bread and butter to single-player RPGs. My hopes for this title aren't very high, to say the least, not until I see the way they plan to configure the game as a whole.
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
While OP is being somewhat dramatic I'd say that there is some truth here. Bioware is known for making great CRPGs..... which are a completely different ballgame than MMORPGs. If they try to simply copy-paste gameplay principles that made their single-player RPGs great into a MMORPG they'll very probably fail miserably... regardless of the rest of the gameplay's quality. A recent example is AoC: Single player <> Multiplayer. You can't build a game on single-player paradigm, slap multiplayer capability on it and call it a MMO. It doesn't work that way. MMORPGs intrinsically abhor "hero's journey" paradigm that is bread and butter to single-player RPGs. My hopes for this title aren't very high, to say the least, not until I see the way they plan to configure the game as a whole.
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
sounds very linear to me... very
what about the bounty hunters or crafters or the soldier type... I don't want 80 levels of Tortage... and I certainly don't want lotro game with no pvp...
If this is what they have in mind they should have chosen a different IP. While Bioware might not owe anything to anyone, the collected mmo developers owe a real complete and MASSIVE mmo to us - no more paying for nothing ... getting us to pay for CE boxes only to lie and cheat us. And LUCASARTS owe the veterans big time. And in this case Bioware is acting like LA's extended arm; so ergo they owe us a sandbox game.
Drama? Maybe. But just wait. Bioware has decided to tackle the hardest IP with a core group of fans that are tired of being neglected. This is just a fact.
First of all, Bioware has nothing to do with SWG. They can (and will) make their own Starwars type of MMO, however they see fit.
Second, a world of hurt? You mean those Pre-NGE whiners, doing nothing other than complain about SWG's current state and explaining everyone AGAIN how it was Pre-NGE? Come on, man. Get over yourself. Those guys mean squat. Nobody listens to them.
Anyway, I think it will be very interesting what Bioware will deliver. And don't start about how MMO's are so much different than what they have made so far, I mean Blizzard didn't have any real experience in the MMO field either, yet they delivered the world's #1 MMO.
I like Bioware just the way they do things. Based on their track record we do not need to tell them what to do. Thats like you telling Blizzard what to do with Diablo 3, etc.
Besides, I am a beta to launch SWG Veteran. I played until the NGE. The NGE was the final straw for me; with the emphasis on "FINAL STRAW." Meaning: I already had issues with SWG LONG before the NGE or the CU was even release.
I remember every Tom, Dick, and Harry owning 3 rancors and having them inside the Cantina. I remember the long lines of Doc buff because it was IMPOSSIBLE to solo without quadrupling your stats (or even more....like 8 times stacking your life, sta, mind, etc). Combat was very broken.
I remember running everywhere for a half a year. It was ok at first but then it just got old. I remember having to pay for the space expansion (something that should have been free from the beginning). I remember everyone being "afk" grinding away for the holocubes telling what the next step was to be a jedi because 80% of the server wanted to be a godly buffed up class.
I remember them taking away the perma death because people started to complain about it. I remember the smugglers being absolutely worthless (still are), I remember the Droid Engineers being bugged for over a year and had a celebration when they got fixed a year later (they even gave you a forum skin option of the droids for their official forums when the update was released).
I remember the credit dupe crises. (An Fwg5 blaster with the same stats went from 550 credits to 175,000 credits overnight). Only the honest players were truly left out. I remember when the CSRs of SWG banned EVERYONE that had a dupe credit on their account (whether they knew it or not). I remember several exodus out of SWG way before the NGE (one when FFXI came out, another when Horizons came out ...yes...people left over Horizons, and when the Matrix came out). This game was hemmoraging before NGE
Pre NGE had their own share of problems wayyyy before the NGE.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
While OP is being somewhat dramatic I'd say that there is some truth here. Bioware is known for making great CRPGs..... which are a completely different ballgame than MMORPGs. If they try to simply copy-paste gameplay principles that made their single-player RPGs great into a MMORPG they'll very probably fail miserably... regardless of the rest of the gameplay's quality. A recent example is AoC: Single player <> Multiplayer. You can't build a game on single-player paradigm, slap multiplayer capability on it and call it a MMO. It doesn't work that way. MMORPGs intrinsically abhor "hero's journey" paradigm that is bread and butter to single-player RPGs. My hopes for this title aren't very high, to say the least, not until I see the way they plan to configure the game as a whole.
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
sounds very linear to me... very
what about the bounty hunters or crafters or the soldier type... I don't want 80 levels of Tortage... and I certainly don't want lotro game with no pvp...
If this is what they have in mind they should have chosen a different IP. While Bioware might not owe anything to anyone, the collected mmo developers owe a real complete and MASSIVE mmo to us - no more paying for nothing ... getting us to pay for CE boxes only to lie and cheat us. And LUCASARTS owe the veterans big time. And in this case Bioware is acting like LA's extended arm; so ergo they owe us a sandbox game.
Drama? Maybe. But just wait. Bioware has decided to tackle the hardest IP with a core group of fans that are tired of being neglected. This is just a fact.
Surprise. The Core-Group is of little interest.
Seriously. SWG-Vets need to get off their high horse. Nobody owes them anything. If you want to take claim to SWG-Pre-CU, go on and continue on the crusade. BioWare will make the game THEY feel they want to make.
And judging by BioWare's track-record, they know full well what they are doing, so stop the damn whining before even the slightest bit of information is released.
PS: This is not directed personally at the quoted poster, but at all the people already crying doom and gloom over a game that hasn't even been officially announced yet, at least not with ANY sort of information.
If I put "Mass Effect" and "KOTOR" in the same sentence and add "MMO" to it, I already am getting excited.
This is a good point. Personally, I enjoyed Mass Effect. It did have a skill system and you could break away from the linear storyline and explore other planets to do side missions and such. Perhaps Mass Effect was a "warm up" for a sandbox style MMO....
Aside from that, I gotta agree with everything ArcAngel3 said. I would also say, as an SWG vet as well, that I am not looking for BioWare to recreate Pre-CU. BioWare has made some really good games and I trust they will do something interesting with this title.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
While OP is being somewhat dramatic I'd say that there is some truth here. Bioware is known for making great CRPGs..... which are a completely different ballgame than MMORPGs. If they try to simply copy-paste gameplay principles that made their single-player RPGs great into a MMORPG they'll very probably fail miserably... regardless of the rest of the gameplay's quality. A recent example is AoC: Single player <> Multiplayer. You can't build a game on single-player paradigm, slap multiplayer capability on it and call it a MMO. It doesn't work that way. MMORPGs intrinsically abhor "hero's journey" paradigm that is bread and butter to single-player RPGs. My hopes for this title aren't very high, to say the least, not until I see the way they plan to configure the game as a whole.
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
sounds very linear to me... very
what about the bounty hunters or crafters or the soldier type... I don't want 80 levels of Tortage... and I certainly don't want lotro game with no pvp...
If this is what they have in mind they should have chosen a different IP. While Bioware might not owe anything to anyone, the collected mmo developers owe a real complete and MASSIVE mmo to us - no more paying for nothing ... getting us to pay for CE boxes only to lie and cheat us. And LUCASARTS owe the veterans big time. And in this case Bioware is acting like LA's extended arm; so ergo they owe us a sandbox game.
Drama? Maybe. But just wait. Bioware has decided to tackle the hardest IP with a core group of fans that are tired of being neglected. This is just a fact.
Surprise. The Core-Group is of little interest.
Seriously. SWG-Vets need to get off their high horse. Nobody owes them anything. If you want to take claim to SWG-Pre-CU, go on and continue on the crusade. BioWare will make the game THEY feel they want to make.
And judging by BioWare's track-record, they know full well what they are doing, so stop the damn whining before even the slightest bit of information is released.
PS: This is not directed personally at the quoted poster, but at all the people already crying doom and gloom over a game that hasn't even been officially announced yet, at least not with ANY sort of information.
really i think we are owed alot of things
i think we are owed a world that was stolen from us 250k people cried when that world was stolen and replaced with the worst mmo game to date. we are owed for all the time we spent in that world crafting and pvping and making jedi toons. we are owed for we are players who $OE backstabbed and lied too and stole from.
$OE owes us a sorry they owe us our money back and they owe us for all the time we spent in a world that they got rid of in order to make star warcraft. bioware owes us as we are the core group that kotor online must win over. and we have told bioware what we want we want a pre-cu system with pvp alpha classes and sandbox game play.
we are owed a world and me and other vets want it back. and many others who wish for a sandbox mmo game want pre-cu back to. bioware and $OE owe us that much.
you do know it's bioware and EA doing this game...not bioware and SOE.... so .. umm... yeah, you and any other CU Vet who thinks they're owed something on this game are wrong. Wrong company... stop trying to say ANY Star Wars IP owes you something.
really i think we are owed alot of things i think we are owed a world that was stolen from us 250k people cried when that world was stolen and replaced with the worst mmo game to date. we are owed for all the time we spent in that world crafting and pvping and making jedi toons. we are owed for we are players who $OE backstabbed and lied too and stole from. $OE owes us a sorry they owe us our money back and they owe us for all the time we spent in a world that they got rid of in order to make star warcraft. bioware owes us as we are the core group that kotor online must win over. and we have told bioware what we want we want a pre-cu system with pvp alpha classes and sandbox game play. we are owed a world and me and other vets want it back. and many others who wish for a sandbox mmo game want pre-cu back to. bioware and $OE owe us that much.
Really...no comment.
I really hope that BioWare does not listen to you people. I really hope BioWare just sticks to what they do and what they do well instead of trying to cater to a bunch of disgruntled people (disgruntled by another company no less).
And no, you are not the core-group that BioWare MUST win over. There's plenty of people who will play the game even if it is NOT -your- version of perfection (i.e. SWG Original). The game won#t die because -you- say it has to and it won#t live because -you- say it has to.
Seriously. The self importance of the SWG-Vets is kinda frightening at times.
really i think we are owed alot of things i think we are owed a world that was stolen from us 250k people cried when that world was stolen and replaced with the worst mmo game to date. we are owed for all the time we spent in that world crafting and pvping and making jedi toons. we are owed for we are players who $OE backstabbed and lied too and stole from. $OE owes us a sorry they owe us our money back and they owe us for all the time we spent in a world that they got rid of in order to make star warcraft. bioware owes us as we are the core group that kotor online must win over. and we have told bioware what we want we want a pre-cu system with pvp alpha classes and sandbox game play. we are owed a world and me and other vets want it back. and many others who wish for a sandbox mmo game want pre-cu back to. bioware and $OE owe us that much.
Really...no comment.
I really hope that BioWare does not listen to you people. I really hope BioWare just sticks to what they do and what they do well instead of trying to cater to a bunch of disgruntled people (disgruntled by another company no less).
And no, you are not the core-group that BioWare MUST win over. There's plenty of people who will play the game even if it is NOT -your- version of perfection (i.e. SWG Original). The game won#t die because -you- say it has to and it won#t live because -you- say it has to.
Seriously. The self importance of the SWG-Vets is kinda frightening at times.
really if other mmo vets hate us so much why is the swg vet forum one of the most viewed and posted in forums.
if people hate us swg vets so much they why don't they come to our forum.
oh thats right cuz everyone in the mmo world knows we vets are right the nge sucks and anything that has to do with the nge = the suck. and i see posts all the time on this forum of "please give us sandbox games!" that means only one thing people want a pre-cu title
and we are the core group that bioware must win over. we have turned the nge into a ghost town and have made $OE a running joke of the mmo world. and if we don't get what we want do you think bioware is going to do ok?
Lucas Arts are just as much to blame for the CU-NGE as SOE is. So while this MMO may be promising, I will be very carefull with it, and yes Lucas Arts still have to make up for SWG.
However Riccitiello is doing a good job with EA atm, so perhaps this will be a good game.
If it becomes another WoW in space, then I rather play WoW
Greetz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
LucasArts sold over 2 million box in the first year of SWG , the game was so buggy and so unlike Star Wars, that Blizzard was able to convert them to WoW. The fact was when Blizzard launched , and the MMOrpg era began Lucas had the foot in the door with SWG, but he couldnt retain what was called "true star wars experience" The sand box design didnt appeal to mass market , which Lucas was bringing the non mmorpg user and non gamer , people were in SWG it was too complex , or didnt fit Star Wars. Ncsoft , among others were able to convert many star wars into thier game due to SWG bad design and epic failure. One of the worst failure was the lack of Jedi and the time period, the USA Today which covered the huge fallout of the NGE polled users at 70% ish of not having a Jedi and most complain about the "Jedi Grind" I think Lucas probly knows to do this about Jedi and drive the storyline home. Star Wars at its heart shouldnt be crafting , mining , or wandering aimlessly around some sand world , you should have a story , and you should have a role. Jedi fills that role , Jedi do everything for the republic
Star Wars Galaxies has not sold over 2 million copies in the first year. Not even close and it had little to do with the success of WoW. Unless there is something I missed somewhere that game sold roughly a million units, which includes expansions, etc.
The sandbox design COULD work and MIGHT have worked if the game ever came close to being finished. The problem is that people conclude that SWG sandbox game didn't work, because people didn't like it when the problem was the game was in terrible shape. The game was hard to play, from the confusing interface, crafting systems which took entire websites to understand and often just didn't work to complete lack of non player driven content. It is easy to understand why people left if droves.
Apply those same strong community building game aspects with strong story driven quests [live, dynamic and static], a well designed PvP system, crafting that can coexist with PvE loot drops and interesting dungeon type adventures and I think you will see just how much people will embrace a more sandbox style game.
It WILL be a level based system. The KOTOR games are based on the d20 pen and paper Star Wars game, so its pretty safe to assume this one will be too. That means levels, skills, and feats based on the Players Handbook.
This game will not in anyway be based on or associated with Star Wars galaxies. Stop trying to make this game into its replacement. because thats not what it is, and noone has promised you that.
While OP is being somewhat dramatic I'd say that there is some truth here. Bioware is known for making great CRPGs..... which are a completely different ballgame than MMORPGs. If they try to simply copy-paste gameplay principles that made their single-player RPGs great into a MMORPG they'll very probably fail miserably... regardless of the rest of the gameplay's quality. A recent example is AoC: Single player <> Multiplayer. You can't build a game on single-player paradigm, slap multiplayer capability on it and call it a MMO. It doesn't work that way. MMORPGs intrinsically abhor "hero's journey" paradigm that is bread and butter to single-player RPGs. My hopes for this title aren't very high, to say the least, not until I see the way they plan to configure the game as a whole.
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
sounds very linear to me... very
what about the bounty hunters or crafters or the soldier type... I don't want 80 levels of Tortage... and I certainly don't want lotro game with no pvp...
If this is what they have in mind they should have chosen a different IP. While Bioware might not owe anything to anyone, the collected mmo developers owe a real complete and MASSIVE mmo to us - no more paying for nothing ... getting us to pay for CE boxes only to lie and cheat us. And LUCASARTS owe the veterans big time. And in this case Bioware is acting like LA's extended arm; so ergo they owe us a sandbox game.
Drama? Maybe. But just wait. Bioware has decided to tackle the hardest IP with a core group of fans that are tired of being neglected. This is just a fact.
Surprise. The Core-Group is of little interest.
Seriously. SWG-Vets need to get off their high horse. Nobody owes them anything. If you want to take claim to SWG-Pre-CU, go on and continue on the crusade. BioWare will make the game THEY feel they want to make.
And judging by BioWare's track-record, they know full well what they are doing, so stop the damn whining before even the slightest bit of information is released.
PS: This is not directed personally at the quoted poster, but at all the people already crying doom and gloom over a game that hasn't even been officially announced yet, at least not with ANY sort of information.
really i think we are owed alot of things
i think we are owed a world that was stolen from us 250k people cried when that world was stolen and replaced with the worst mmo game to date. we are owed for all the time we spent in that world crafting and pvping and making jedi toons. we are owed for we are players who $OE backstabbed and lied too and stole from.
$OE owes us a sorry they owe us our money back and they owe us for all the time we spent in a world that they got rid of in order to make star warcraft. bioware owes us as we are the core group that kotor online must win over. and we have told bioware what we want we want a pre-cu system with pvp alpha classes and sandbox game play.
we are owed a world and me and other vets want it back. and many others who wish for a sandbox mmo game want pre-cu back to. bioware and $OE owe us that much.
The entirety of your post os so full of self delusion and bereft of reality that I cannot begin to point out the flaws in your logic.
If every SWG vet (myself included) fell off the face of the planet tomorrow and never saw so much as screenshot one of SW:ToR Bioware would do just fine at launch. Bioware is cashing this MMO in on KOTOR fame not the virtual train wreck that is SWG, I am willing to bet that they go a long ways out of their way to aviod any link to SWG.
Personally I can't wait to see the kind of hammers that come down on the SWG nazis that try to rant on the Bioware forums when this game gets rolling.
See... I think Bioware is in a world of hurt if they don't make their MMO exactly like TieFighter Pre-XWing.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title. "When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
While OP is being somewhat dramatic I'd say that there is some truth here. Bioware is known for making great CRPGs..... which are a completely different ballgame than MMORPGs. If they try to simply copy-paste gameplay principles that made their single-player RPGs great into a MMORPG they'll very probably fail miserably... regardless of the rest of the gameplay's quality. A recent example is AoC: Single player <> Multiplayer. You can't build a game on single-player paradigm, slap multiplayer capability on it and call it a MMO. It doesn't work that way. MMORPGs intrinsically abhor "hero's journey" paradigm that is bread and butter to single-player RPGs. My hopes for this title aren't very high, to say the least, not until I see the way they plan to configure the game as a whole.
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
Lol, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
In all good faith you just described an exemplary single-player game. I don't see a MMO anywhere.
This is just the pitfall AoC fell in. Basically single-player thing with some other people around. The concept is all wrong.
IMO AoC could have been a great single player game. Heck it is a single player game with some people hanging around. Its core concept, the way the game works, the reason why people play is not MMO. It is a single-player "hero's journey" thing. LotRO is pretty much the same, it could have had 10x more subs if it weren't a single player game with MMO chucked in.
The way publishers think these days is as follows: "MMOs - the way to take those 15$ monthly subs along with the box sales. Let's just do that single-player we were working on and make it multiplayer to get at those fat subs." It's pathetic.. because they forget that in order to retain those subs you have to keep people interested for prolonged periods of time. And you can't do that with a single-player scripted disposable content paradigm. Oh no, you have to actually make a self-sustaining online world and that is something very few devs managed to accomplish so far.
My fear is that this KOTOR MMO will get awesome sales, people will play it like mad for a month or two and then grow inexplicably bored... good bye those fat subs. Just like AoC. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure it's going to be polished and fun like you wouldn't believe, definitely worth every penny, but people won't have the reason to keep subbing after they've exhausted the pre-scripted content.
/add...
It is exactly the elaborate storylines (no matter how multi-choice they are) that work in distinct stages that is one of the worst ways to do a MMO. Just stop and think. You've got players scattered across all those various stages of various quests and stories... How are they going to catch up, meet and socialize? Lol "Hey I'm on 3rd stage of the 5th quest from the storyline c. What quest are you doing?.... Oh too bad, guess there's no point in us playing together then."
See? It is exactly the thing which makes single-players great that is the death knell to MMORPGs.
really i think we are owed alot of things i think we are owed a world that was stolen from us 250k people cried when that world was stolen and replaced with the worst mmo game to date. we are owed for all the time we spent in that world crafting and pvping and making jedi toons. we are owed for we are players who $OE backstabbed and lied too and stole from. $OE owes us a sorry they owe us our money back and they owe us for all the time we spent in a world that they got rid of in order to make star warcraft. bioware owes us as we are the core group that kotor online must win over. and we have told bioware what we want we want a pre-cu system with pvp alpha classes and sandbox game play. we are owed a world and me and other vets want it back. and many others who wish for a sandbox mmo game want pre-cu back to. bioware and $OE owe us that much.
Really...no comment.
I really hope that BioWare does not listen to you people. I really hope BioWare just sticks to what they do and what they do well instead of trying to cater to a bunch of disgruntled people (disgruntled by another company no less).
And no, you are not the core-group that BioWare MUST win over. There's plenty of people who will play the game even if it is NOT -your- version of perfection (i.e. SWG Original). The game won#t die because -you- say it has to and it won#t live because -you- say it has to.
Seriously. The self importance of the SWG-Vets is kinda frightening at times.
really if other mmo vets hate us so much why is the swg vet forum one of the most viewed and posted in forums.
if people hate us swg vets so much they why don't they come to our forum.
oh thats right cuz everyone in the mmo world knows we vets are right the nge sucks and anything that has to do with the nge = the suck. and i see posts all the time on this forum of "please give us sandbox games!" that means only one thing people want a pre-cu title
and we are the core group that bioware must win over. we have turned the nge into a ghost town and have made $OE a running joke of the mmo world. and if we don't get what we want do you think bioware is going to do ok?
As a watcher of SWG forums since Nov 15, 2005, let me say that folks like myself watch because the train-wreck still is on display.
You just cant help yourself.
It doesnt mean we agree with your antics...just that they give us a laugh.
So after nearly 3 years of stomping your feet, now you are "owed" a new MMO utilizing the SW IP?
I happen to be a fan of Firefly/Serenity.
If me, and a hundred or so like me, post daily for nearly 3 years...basically repeating the same posts ad naseum...will that entitle us to a new series of the "verse"? Or better yet, the RPG they put out isnt in the same format we originally enjoyed...does our complaining dictate them changing their game to a TV show?
You sure seem to think you guys have the right to determine what product LA/EA/Bioware releases.
I say you need to let it go.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
really i think we are owed alot of things i think we are owed a world that was stolen from us 250k people cried when that world was stolen and replaced with the worst mmo game to date. we are owed for all the time we spent in that world crafting and pvping and making jedi toons. we are owed for we are players who $OE backstabbed and lied too and stole from. $OE owes us a sorry they owe us our money back and they owe us for all the time we spent in a world that they got rid of in order to make star warcraft. bioware owes us as we are the core group that kotor online must win over. and we have told bioware what we want we want a pre-cu system with pvp alpha classes and sandbox game play. we are owed a world and me and other vets want it back. and many others who wish for a sandbox mmo game want pre-cu back to. bioware and $OE owe us that much.
Really...no comment.
I really hope that BioWare does not listen to you people. I really hope BioWare just sticks to what they do and what they do well instead of trying to cater to a bunch of disgruntled people (disgruntled by another company no less).
And no, you are not the core-group that BioWare MUST win over. There's plenty of people who will play the game even if it is NOT -your- version of perfection (i.e. SWG Original). The game won#t die because -you- say it has to and it won#t live because -you- say it has to.
Seriously. The self importance of the SWG-Vets is kinda frightening at times.
i agree. Bioware oesnt owe SWG players(myself included) a damn thing! SOE owes you if anyone. You guys gotta let that stuff go already.
While OP is being somewhat dramatic I'd say that there is some truth here. Bioware is known for making great CRPGs..... which are a completely different ballgame than MMORPGs. If they try to simply copy-paste gameplay principles that made their single-player RPGs great into a MMORPG they'll very probably fail miserably... regardless of the rest of the gameplay's quality. A recent example is AoC: Single player <> Multiplayer. You can't build a game on single-player paradigm, slap multiplayer capability on it and call it a MMO. It doesn't work that way. MMORPGs intrinsically abhor "hero's journey" paradigm that is bread and butter to single-player RPGs. My hopes for this title aren't very high, to say the least, not until I see the way they plan to configure the game as a whole.
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
Lol, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
In all good faith you just described an exemplary single-player game. I don't see a MMO anywhere.
This is just the pitfall AoC fell in. Basically single-player thing with some other people around. The concept is all wrong.
IMO AoC could have been a great single player game. Heck it is a single player game with some people hanging around. Its core concept, the way the game works, the reason why people play is not MMO. It is a single-player "hero's journey" thing. LotRO is pretty much the same, it could have had 10x more subs if it weren't a single player game with MMO chucked in.
The way publishers think these days is as follows: "MMOs - the way to take those 15$ monthly subs along with the box sales. Let's just do that single-player we were working on and make it multiplayer to get at those fat subs." It's pathetic.. because they forget that in order to retain those subs you have to keep people interested for prolonged periods of time. And you can't do that with a single-player scripted disposable content paradigm. Oh no, you have to actually make a self-sustaining online world and that is something very few devs managed to accomplish so far.
My fear is that this KOTOR MMO will get awesome sales, people will play it like mad for a month or two and then grow inexplicably bored... good bye those fat subs. Just like AoC. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure it's going to be polished and fun like you wouldn't believe, definitely worth every penny, but people won't have the reason to keep subbing after they've exhausted the pre-scripted content.
/add...
It is exactly the elaborate storylines (no matter how multi-choice they are) that work in distinct stages that is one of the worst ways to do a MMO. Just stop and think. You've got players scattered across all those various stages of various quests and stories... How are they going to catch up, meet and socialize? Lol "Hey I'm on 3rd stage of the 5th quest from the storyline c. What quest are you doing?.... Oh too bad, guess there's no point in us playing together then."
See? It is exactly the thing which makes single-players great that is the death knell to MMORPGs.
after reviewing all teh games i have from bioware, and what we know about teh team and money they have on teh project. Im confident this will be an incredible game. It wont be perfect. not everyone will like it, and im sure there will be things i dont like much about it, but i know overall i will love it. BIOWARE isnt some half ass developer. That name holds REAL WEIGHT.
Comments
I won't play the game regardless of how they develop it. After playing SWG for 3 years prior to the NGE, I don't think I can put up with another second of the Star Wars franchise. And no I didn't really like KOTOR. I found Mass Effect more appealing as a Science Fiction story.
Looks like Bioware can lean back and be happy that there are still an amount of people who wouldnt mind paying for a linear, non-pvp, story based, non-sandbox wow clone ....
____________________________
CASUAL CONFESSIONS - Draccan's blog
____________________________
While OP is being somewhat dramatic I'd say that there is some truth here.
Bioware is known for making great CRPGs..... which are a completely different ballgame than MMORPGs.
If they try to simply copy-paste gameplay principles that made their single-player RPGs great into a MMORPG they'll very probably fail miserably... regardless of the rest of the gameplay's quality.
A recent example is AoC: Single player <> Multiplayer.
You can't build a game on single-player paradigm, slap multiplayer capability on it and call it a MMO. It doesn't work that way. MMORPGs intrinsically abhor "hero's journey" paradigm that is bread and butter to single-player RPGs.
My hopes for this title aren't very high, to say the least, not until I see the way they plan to configure the game as a whole.
But sandbox is the way to go! I'm serious! Why do you think that the MMO market is stagnating right now?
Lemme see, log in, pick a race, tweak my looks from five different faces, pick a class, start leveling, do quests to gather x/kill y/speak to z, rinse/repeat, until you get to higher levels, then you raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, pvp, raid, raid, raid, craft (maybe), raid, raid, raid, pvp, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, pvp, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, raid, pvp, raid, raid and raid some more.
And people wonder why they are bored with the current offering of steaming shit...er....I mean MMORPG's that are on the market now?
I'm not saying I'm the type to take advantage of all the aspects of a sandbox game, but it's nice to know there are different options there. Where the hell did the R (which is for Roleplaying kids) go in MMORPG?
Anyhow, if there is a company that can do this right, Bioware is definately one of those companies. These guys always put out top quality products. I'd love to see what they have in store for us.
Shut the hell up you irritating swg veteran. Game is not even out yet. You have no info or screen or videos about it. And already you are bitching on moaning? got too used to complaining i guess.
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
sounds very linear to me... very
what about the bounty hunters or crafters or the soldier type... I don't want 80 levels of Tortage... and I certainly don't want lotro game with no pvp...
If this is what they have in mind they should have chosen a different IP. While Bioware might not owe anything to anyone, the collected mmo developers owe a real complete and MASSIVE mmo to us - no more paying for nothing ... getting us to pay for CE boxes only to lie and cheat us. And LUCASARTS owe the veterans big time. And in this case Bioware is acting like LA's extended arm; so ergo they owe us a sandbox game.
Drama? Maybe. But just wait. Bioware has decided to tackle the hardest IP with a core group of fans that are tired of being neglected. This is just a fact.
____________________________
CASUAL CONFESSIONS - Draccan's blog
____________________________
First of all, Bioware has nothing to do with SWG. They can (and will) make their own Starwars type of MMO, however they see fit.
Second, a world of hurt? You mean those Pre-NGE whiners, doing nothing other than complain about SWG's current state and explaining everyone AGAIN how it was Pre-NGE? Come on, man. Get over yourself. Those guys mean squat. Nobody listens to them.
Anyway, I think it will be very interesting what Bioware will deliver. And don't start about how MMO's are so much different than what they have made so far, I mean Blizzard didn't have any real experience in the MMO field either, yet they delivered the world's #1 MMO.
I'm very, very interested.
I like Bioware just the way they do things. Based on their track record we do not need to tell them what to do. Thats like you telling Blizzard what to do with Diablo 3, etc.
Besides, I am a beta to launch SWG Veteran. I played until the NGE. The NGE was the final straw for me; with the emphasis on "FINAL STRAW." Meaning: I already had issues with SWG LONG before the NGE or the CU was even release.
I remember every Tom, Dick, and Harry owning 3 rancors and having them inside the Cantina. I remember the long lines of Doc buff because it was IMPOSSIBLE to solo without quadrupling your stats (or even more....like 8 times stacking your life, sta, mind, etc). Combat was very broken.
I remember running everywhere for a half a year. It was ok at first but then it just got old. I remember having to pay for the space expansion (something that should have been free from the beginning). I remember everyone being "afk" grinding away for the holocubes telling what the next step was to be a jedi because 80% of the server wanted to be a godly buffed up class.
I remember them taking away the perma death because people started to complain about it. I remember the smugglers being absolutely worthless (still are), I remember the Droid Engineers being bugged for over a year and had a celebration when they got fixed a year later (they even gave you a forum skin option of the droids for their official forums when the update was released).
I remember the credit dupe crises. (An Fwg5 blaster with the same stats went from 550 credits to 175,000 credits overnight). Only the honest players were truly left out. I remember when the CSRs of SWG banned EVERYONE that had a dupe credit on their account (whether they knew it or not). I remember several exodus out of SWG way before the NGE (one when FFXI came out, another when Horizons came out ...yes...people left over Horizons, and when the Matrix came out). This game was hemmoraging before NGE
Pre NGE had their own share of problems wayyyy before the NGE.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
sounds very linear to me... very
what about the bounty hunters or crafters or the soldier type... I don't want 80 levels of Tortage... and I certainly don't want lotro game with no pvp...
If this is what they have in mind they should have chosen a different IP. While Bioware might not owe anything to anyone, the collected mmo developers owe a real complete and MASSIVE mmo to us - no more paying for nothing ... getting us to pay for CE boxes only to lie and cheat us. And LUCASARTS owe the veterans big time. And in this case Bioware is acting like LA's extended arm; so ergo they owe us a sandbox game.
Drama? Maybe. But just wait. Bioware has decided to tackle the hardest IP with a core group of fans that are tired of being neglected. This is just a fact.
Surprise. The Core-Group is of little interest.
Seriously. SWG-Vets need to get off their high horse. Nobody owes them anything. If you want to take claim to SWG-Pre-CU, go on and continue on the crusade. BioWare will make the game THEY feel they want to make.
And judging by BioWare's track-record, they know full well what they are doing, so stop the damn whining before even the slightest bit of information is released.
PS: This is not directed personally at the quoted poster, but at all the people already crying doom and gloom over a game that hasn't even been officially announced yet, at least not with ANY sort of information.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
This is a good point. Personally, I enjoyed Mass Effect. It did have a skill system and you could break away from the linear storyline and explore other planets to do side missions and such. Perhaps Mass Effect was a "warm up" for a sandbox style MMO....
Aside from that, I gotta agree with everything ArcAngel3 said. I would also say, as an SWG vet as well, that I am not looking for BioWare to recreate Pre-CU. BioWare has made some really good games and I trust they will do something interesting with this title.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
sounds very linear to me... very
what about the bounty hunters or crafters or the soldier type... I don't want 80 levels of Tortage... and I certainly don't want lotro game with no pvp...
If this is what they have in mind they should have chosen a different IP. While Bioware might not owe anything to anyone, the collected mmo developers owe a real complete and MASSIVE mmo to us - no more paying for nothing ... getting us to pay for CE boxes only to lie and cheat us. And LUCASARTS owe the veterans big time. And in this case Bioware is acting like LA's extended arm; so ergo they owe us a sandbox game.
Drama? Maybe. But just wait. Bioware has decided to tackle the hardest IP with a core group of fans that are tired of being neglected. This is just a fact.
Surprise. The Core-Group is of little interest.
Seriously. SWG-Vets need to get off their high horse. Nobody owes them anything. If you want to take claim to SWG-Pre-CU, go on and continue on the crusade. BioWare will make the game THEY feel they want to make.
And judging by BioWare's track-record, they know full well what they are doing, so stop the damn whining before even the slightest bit of information is released.
PS: This is not directed personally at the quoted poster, but at all the people already crying doom and gloom over a game that hasn't even been officially announced yet, at least not with ANY sort of information.
really i think we are owed alot of things
i think we are owed a world that was stolen from us 250k people cried when that world was stolen and replaced with the worst mmo game to date. we are owed for all the time we spent in that world crafting and pvping and making jedi toons. we are owed for we are players who $OE backstabbed and lied too and stole from.
$OE owes us a sorry they owe us our money back and they owe us for all the time we spent in a world that they got rid of in order to make star warcraft. bioware owes us as we are the core group that kotor online must win over. and we have told bioware what we want we want a pre-cu system with pvp alpha classes and sandbox game play.
we are owed a world and me and other vets want it back. and many others who wish for a sandbox mmo game want pre-cu back to. bioware and $OE owe us that much.
you do know it's bioware and EA doing this game...not bioware and SOE.... so .. umm... yeah, you and any other CU Vet who thinks they're owed something on this game are wrong. Wrong company... stop trying to say ANY Star Wars IP owes you something.
Really...no comment.
I really hope that BioWare does not listen to you people. I really hope BioWare just sticks to what they do and what they do well instead of trying to cater to a bunch of disgruntled people (disgruntled by another company no less).
And no, you are not the core-group that BioWare MUST win over. There's plenty of people who will play the game even if it is NOT -your- version of perfection (i.e. SWG Original). The game won#t die because -you- say it has to and it won#t live because -you- say it has to.
Seriously. The self importance of the SWG-Vets is kinda frightening at times.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Really...no comment.
I really hope that BioWare does not listen to you people. I really hope BioWare just sticks to what they do and what they do well instead of trying to cater to a bunch of disgruntled people (disgruntled by another company no less).
And no, you are not the core-group that BioWare MUST win over. There's plenty of people who will play the game even if it is NOT -your- version of perfection (i.e. SWG Original). The game won#t die because -you- say it has to and it won#t live because -you- say it has to.
Seriously. The self importance of the SWG-Vets is kinda frightening at times.
really if other mmo vets hate us so much why is the swg vet forum one of the most viewed and posted in forums.
if people hate us swg vets so much they why don't they come to our forum.
oh thats right cuz everyone in the mmo world knows we vets are right the nge sucks and anything that has to do with the nge = the suck. and i see posts all the time on this forum of "please give us sandbox games!" that means only one thing people want a pre-cu title
and we are the core group that bioware must win over. we have turned the nge into a ghost town and have made $OE a running joke of the mmo world. and if we don't get what we want do you think bioware is going to do ok?
Lucas Arts are just as much to blame for the CU-NGE as SOE is. So while this MMO may be promising, I will be very carefull with it, and yes Lucas Arts still have to make up for SWG.
However Riccitiello is doing a good job with EA atm, so perhaps this will be a good game.
If it becomes another WoW in space, then I rather play WoW
Greetz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Star Wars Galaxies has not sold over 2 million copies in the first year. Not even close and it had little to do with the success of WoW. Unless there is something I missed somewhere that game sold roughly a million units, which includes expansions, etc.
www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/star-wars-galaxies-sales-top-a-million-units
The sandbox design COULD work and MIGHT have worked if the game ever came close to being finished. The problem is that people conclude that SWG sandbox game didn't work, because people didn't like it when the problem was the game was in terrible shape. The game was hard to play, from the confusing interface, crafting systems which took entire websites to understand and often just didn't work to complete lack of non player driven content. It is easy to understand why people left if droves.
Apply those same strong community building game aspects with strong story driven quests [live, dynamic and static], a well designed PvP system, crafting that can coexist with PvE loot drops and interesting dungeon type adventures and I think you will see just how much people will embrace a more sandbox style game.
It WILL be a level based system. The KOTOR games are based on the d20 pen and paper Star Wars game, so its pretty safe to assume this one will be too. That means levels, skills, and feats based on the Players Handbook.
This game will not in anyway be based on or associated with Star Wars galaxies. Stop trying to make this game into its replacement. because thats not what it is, and noone has promised you that.
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
sounds very linear to me... very
what about the bounty hunters or crafters or the soldier type... I don't want 80 levels of Tortage... and I certainly don't want lotro game with no pvp...
If this is what they have in mind they should have chosen a different IP. While Bioware might not owe anything to anyone, the collected mmo developers owe a real complete and MASSIVE mmo to us - no more paying for nothing ... getting us to pay for CE boxes only to lie and cheat us. And LUCASARTS owe the veterans big time. And in this case Bioware is acting like LA's extended arm; so ergo they owe us a sandbox game.
Drama? Maybe. But just wait. Bioware has decided to tackle the hardest IP with a core group of fans that are tired of being neglected. This is just a fact.
Surprise. The Core-Group is of little interest.
Seriously. SWG-Vets need to get off their high horse. Nobody owes them anything. If you want to take claim to SWG-Pre-CU, go on and continue on the crusade. BioWare will make the game THEY feel they want to make.
And judging by BioWare's track-record, they know full well what they are doing, so stop the damn whining before even the slightest bit of information is released.
PS: This is not directed personally at the quoted poster, but at all the people already crying doom and gloom over a game that hasn't even been officially announced yet, at least not with ANY sort of information.
really i think we are owed alot of things
i think we are owed a world that was stolen from us 250k people cried when that world was stolen and replaced with the worst mmo game to date. we are owed for all the time we spent in that world crafting and pvping and making jedi toons. we are owed for we are players who $OE backstabbed and lied too and stole from.
$OE owes us a sorry they owe us our money back and they owe us for all the time we spent in a world that they got rid of in order to make star warcraft. bioware owes us as we are the core group that kotor online must win over. and we have told bioware what we want we want a pre-cu system with pvp alpha classes and sandbox game play.
we are owed a world and me and other vets want it back. and many others who wish for a sandbox mmo game want pre-cu back to. bioware and $OE owe us that much.
The entirety of your post os so full of self delusion and bereft of reality that I cannot begin to point out the flaws in your logic.
If every SWG vet (myself included) fell off the face of the planet tomorrow and never saw so much as screenshot one of SW:ToR Bioware would do just fine at launch. Bioware is cashing this MMO in on KOTOR fame not the virtual train wreck that is SWG, I am willing to bet that they go a long ways out of their way to aviod any link to SWG.
Personally I can't wait to see the kind of hammers that come down on the SWG nazis that try to rant on the Bioware forums when this game gets rolling.
See... I think Bioware is in a world of hurt if they don't make their MMO exactly like TieFighter Pre-XWing.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Bioware will make a incredible MMO, they have a decent team lined up.....heres a little article over it (before they said it was Kotor)
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3155486
enjoy, sounds like they will do brilliant things with this MMO, if they pull it off it could be a huge hit.
Uhh... what?
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
Lol, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
In all good faith you just described an exemplary single-player game. I don't see a MMO anywhere.
This is just the pitfall AoC fell in. Basically single-player thing with some other people around. The concept is all wrong.
IMO AoC could have been a great single player game. Heck it is a single player game with some people hanging around. Its core concept, the way the game works, the reason why people play is not MMO. It is a single-player "hero's journey" thing. LotRO is pretty much the same, it could have had 10x more subs if it weren't a single player game with MMO chucked in.
The way publishers think these days is as follows: "MMOs - the way to take those 15$ monthly subs along with the box sales. Let's just do that single-player we were working on and make it multiplayer to get at those fat subs." It's pathetic.. because they forget that in order to retain those subs you have to keep people interested for prolonged periods of time. And you can't do that with a single-player scripted disposable content paradigm. Oh no, you have to actually make a self-sustaining online world and that is something very few devs managed to accomplish so far.
My fear is that this KOTOR MMO will get awesome sales, people will play it like mad for a month or two and then grow inexplicably bored... good bye those fat subs. Just like AoC. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure it's going to be polished and fun like you wouldn't believe, definitely worth every penny, but people won't have the reason to keep subbing after they've exhausted the pre-scripted content.
/add...
It is exactly the elaborate storylines (no matter how multi-choice they are) that work in distinct stages that is one of the worst ways to do a MMO. Just stop and think. You've got players scattered across all those various stages of various quests and stories... How are they going to catch up, meet and socialize? Lol "Hey I'm on 3rd stage of the 5th quest from the storyline c. What quest are you doing?.... Oh too bad, guess there's no point in us playing together then."
See? It is exactly the thing which makes single-players great that is the death knell to MMORPGs.
Really...no comment.
I really hope that BioWare does not listen to you people. I really hope BioWare just sticks to what they do and what they do well instead of trying to cater to a bunch of disgruntled people (disgruntled by another company no less).
And no, you are not the core-group that BioWare MUST win over. There's plenty of people who will play the game even if it is NOT -your- version of perfection (i.e. SWG Original). The game won#t die because -you- say it has to and it won#t live because -you- say it has to.
Seriously. The self importance of the SWG-Vets is kinda frightening at times.
really if other mmo vets hate us so much why is the swg vet forum one of the most viewed and posted in forums.
if people hate us swg vets so much they why don't they come to our forum.
oh thats right cuz everyone in the mmo world knows we vets are right the nge sucks and anything that has to do with the nge = the suck. and i see posts all the time on this forum of "please give us sandbox games!" that means only one thing people want a pre-cu title
and we are the core group that bioware must win over. we have turned the nge into a ghost town and have made $OE a running joke of the mmo world. and if we don't get what we want do you think bioware is going to do ok?
As a watcher of SWG forums since Nov 15, 2005, let me say that folks like myself watch because the train-wreck still is on display.
You just cant help yourself.
It doesnt mean we agree with your antics...just that they give us a laugh.
So after nearly 3 years of stomping your feet, now you are "owed" a new MMO utilizing the SW IP?
I happen to be a fan of Firefly/Serenity.
If me, and a hundred or so like me, post daily for nearly 3 years...basically repeating the same posts ad naseum...will that entitle us to a new series of the "verse"? Or better yet, the RPG they put out isnt in the same format we originally enjoyed...does our complaining dictate them changing their game to a TV show?
You sure seem to think you guys have the right to determine what product LA/EA/Bioware releases.
I say you need to let it go.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Really...no comment.
I really hope that BioWare does not listen to you people. I really hope BioWare just sticks to what they do and what they do well instead of trying to cater to a bunch of disgruntled people (disgruntled by another company no less).
And no, you are not the core-group that BioWare MUST win over. There's plenty of people who will play the game even if it is NOT -your- version of perfection (i.e. SWG Original). The game won#t die because -you- say it has to and it won#t live because -you- say it has to.
Seriously. The self importance of the SWG-Vets is kinda frightening at times.
i agree. Bioware oesnt owe SWG players(myself included) a damn thing! SOE owes you if anyone. You guys gotta let that stuff go already.
Apply what you know is the rule , look at Dragon Age , and look at the games Bioware has made so far. They are storylines , choice driven , and well done hitting the mark they are aimed at.
Storydriven doesnt mean it has to be linear for example :
You begin in the Jedi temple as a student , follow a NPC master on your first couple of missions , until you become a knight. As knight the counsil sends you via radio or whatever the hell missions , you re choice to follow the counsil or not , is your story.
Youre missions might range from talking a peace deal to some aliens , to hunting down a rogue Jedi , to stopping a plot to kill someone. Mix in the missions are choices , does the Jedi guy smuggle drugs to this planet , and earn some coins?
Lol, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
In all good faith you just described an exemplary single-player game. I don't see a MMO anywhere.
This is just the pitfall AoC fell in. Basically single-player thing with some other people around. The concept is all wrong.
IMO AoC could have been a great single player game. Heck it is a single player game with some people hanging around. Its core concept, the way the game works, the reason why people play is not MMO. It is a single-player "hero's journey" thing. LotRO is pretty much the same, it could have had 10x more subs if it weren't a single player game with MMO chucked in.
The way publishers think these days is as follows: "MMOs - the way to take those 15$ monthly subs along with the box sales. Let's just do that single-player we were working on and make it multiplayer to get at those fat subs." It's pathetic.. because they forget that in order to retain those subs you have to keep people interested for prolonged periods of time. And you can't do that with a single-player scripted disposable content paradigm. Oh no, you have to actually make a self-sustaining online world and that is something very few devs managed to accomplish so far.
My fear is that this KOTOR MMO will get awesome sales, people will play it like mad for a month or two and then grow inexplicably bored... good bye those fat subs. Just like AoC. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure it's going to be polished and fun like you wouldn't believe, definitely worth every penny, but people won't have the reason to keep subbing after they've exhausted the pre-scripted content.
/add...
It is exactly the elaborate storylines (no matter how multi-choice they are) that work in distinct stages that is one of the worst ways to do a MMO. Just stop and think. You've got players scattered across all those various stages of various quests and stories... How are they going to catch up, meet and socialize? Lol "Hey I'm on 3rd stage of the 5th quest from the storyline c. What quest are you doing?.... Oh too bad, guess there's no point in us playing together then."
See? It is exactly the thing which makes single-players great that is the death knell to MMORPGs.
after reviewing all teh games i have from bioware, and what we know about teh team and money they have on teh project. Im confident this will be an incredible game. It wont be perfect. not everyone will like it, and im sure there will be things i dont like much about it, but i know overall i will love it. BIOWARE isnt some half ass developer. That name holds REAL WEIGHT.