If folks are still around here come the 3 yr mark, I think I will turn us all into Dr Phil.
Them for not letting go...me for not being able to look away.
Well that and finding humor in all of it.
Course I am still mad they didnt give us a content-laden game to begin with...rather than SIMS in space.
So technically this vet has been mad longer than those vets. So that would be me a senior vet vet...with honors and a kick-stand.
You say that 5 times in a row fast-like and you win a biscuit
And I'm still annoyed they didn't give us what they said they were gonna -- a sandbox with toys. I'm still waiting for that Holy Grail of MMOs.
I know the SWG folks wouldnt want it...
But a game I think would be more suitable for sandbox would be the new Battlestar Galactica saga.
It wuldnt be as big of a title....which would be good for 200-300k numbers. Not only that, there would be a reason for everyone in the fleet to have jobs if they didnt wanna do the fighting.
They already have a RPG out based on it...Serenity as well.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Originally posted by Moaky07 Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by Moaky07 If folks are still around here come the 3 yr mark, I think I will turn us all into Dr Phil.
Them for not letting go...me for not being able to look away. Well that and finding humor in all of it. Course I am still mad they didnt give us a content-laden game to begin with...rather than SIMS in space. So technically this vet has been mad longer than those vets. So that would be me a senior vet vet...with honors and a kick-stand. You say that 5 times in a row fast-like and you win a biscuit
And I'm still annoyed they didn't give us what they said they were gonna -- a sandbox with toys. I'm still waiting for that Holy Grail of MMOs.
I know the SWG folks wouldnt want it... But a game I think would be more suitable for sandbox would be the new Battlestar Galactica saga. It wuldnt be as big of a title....which would be good for 200-300k numbers. Not only that, there would be a reason for everyone in the fleet to have jobs if they didnt wanna do the fighting. They already have a RPG out based on it...Serenity as well.
sounds good. I'd still prefer BOTH -- a sandbox WITH a ton of content. The game that does that will blow WoW away.
Originally posted by Moaky07 Its too much Fisher...
You can go heavy on the sandbox...heavy on the content...you just arent going to have it all IMO. That game would cost the national debt to build/balance/debug. Each small patch a mini-Gates fortune to produce.
You are right though...if you could have it all it would make everyone happy. I remember a Van Halen song that once had a lyric "Thats what dreams are made of..." Certainly applicable here.
Disagree, I think it could be done for under 50 million, and would make much more than that in a year or two -- specialy if it had a successful IP to draw them in first.
It's not what dreams are made of, it's what success will be made of -- in the future.
The players are responsible for the failure of SWG? Sounds like a viral marketing campaign to me! SOE is getting really desperate...
There's been a "coincidental" influx of this kind of nonsense on these and likely similar forums ever since the announcement of the KOTOR MMO. It's almost as if some people feel threatened by the possibility of another StarWars MMO.
Blaming the players? I respectfully disagree. In almost every game ever made there will be people complaining about something. Its simply an undeniable fact in this business. It's the job of developers and community managers to filter the good ideas from the BS ideas that may come through the pipeline. Obviously some companies have a better track record at this than others.
The CU and NGE were not just bad ideas that got through the filter to the developers. It was a bold decision made by the upper cadre of $OE management. It displayed a woeful ignorance of how to treat an existing online community for the sake of a hypothetical one. To put it bluntly, it was a trial & error moment in the history of MMOs.
One of the best and most concise summaries of decision making and SWG that I've ever read. Very refreshing.
The players are responsible for the failure of SWG? Sounds like a viral marketing campaign to me! SOE is getting really desperate...
its the nge players seeing the end of the road finally. time to blame up the people who were forced out and even helped pay for the game they say they prefer...have to get that done before they head over to bioware and start stinkin up the forums over there...
The players are responsible for the failure of SWG? Sounds like a viral marketing campaign to me! SOE is getting really desperate...
its the nge players seeing the end of the road finally. time to blame up the people who were forced out and even helped pay for the game they say they prefer...have to get that done before they head over to bioware and start stinkin up the forums over there...
Calling someone a NGE player is fighting words far as I am concerned. I tried that crap when they released it...dropped that real fast...and was getting it on my eq/eq2 all access for free since I had purchased it originally in the CU era.
Why cant folks accept their part around here? Get mad at any differing opinions since the NGE happened. What is it gonna be like if you share a server with folks like the ones found in other forums on MMORPG? You guys are the minority...most of us couldnt stand the "precious".
Pre-whatever flat out sucked. You cant insult folks cause they dont have the same opinion as ya...and even try to claim the high ground to boot. But again and again I see some vets try to equate not liking the precious to anything that causes nuclear fallout...or at least anti-christ associations thanks to dealing with Smeds company. If it isnt things of those nature, then the reason folks dont like pre-whatever is cause they arent smart enough to understand it.
That has been the story coming from some vets for over 2 yrs now.
It doesnt even matter if folks are playing EQ/EQ2/etc..and not SWG..."insult em some more" appears to be the motto around here.
There are vets around here who are their own worst enemy...and just dont understand it.
You cant have alpha...and you cant have things entirely your way.
But you expect it your way....and I have no fracking clue why they would think that it should be the MO of the new game. They got a space sim in the first place that NEVER should of been made.
And if the angry vets cant get along with others, then they should find a lesser space based IP to build their sand-box in.
SW is too big a name to settle for less than 2M customers.
2M customers means lots of content that is balanced/polished...with a steady stream of more things to do.
And Fish...I dont know if it is true or not...but I heard gas to run a SUV cross country is breaking 100k or so. What ya think 50M buys anymore bro? That might put a down payment on a toilet seat for the Pentagon.
Seriously...what you would want I bet would take 100M if not more. Didnt WOW have 50M or so invested a few years back? And you want even more to it. Whats it gonna cost to do patches? Or emergency fixes for exploits...it is just too much IMO.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
The players are responsible for the failure of SWG? Sounds like a viral marketing campaign to me! SOE is getting really desperate...
its the nge players seeing the end of the road finally. time to blame up the people who were forced out and even helped pay for the game they say they prefer...have to get that done before they head over to bioware and start stinkin up the forums over there...
Calling someone a NGE player is fighting words far as I am concerned. I tried that crap when they released it...dropped that real fast...and was getting it on my eq/eq2 all access for free since I had purchased it originally in the CU era.
Why cant folks accept their part around here? Get mad at any differing opinions since the NGE happened. What is it gonna be like if you share a server with folks like the ones found in other forums on MMORPG? You guys are the minority...most of us couldnt stand the "precious".
Pre-whatever flat out sucked. You cant insult folks cause they dont have the same opinion as ya...and even try to claim the high ground to boot. But again and again I see some vets try to equate not liking the precious to anything that causes nuclear fallout...or at least anti-christ associations thanks to dealing with Smeds company. If it isnt things of those nature, then the reason folks dont like pre-whatever is cause they arent smart enough to understand it.
That has been the story coming from some vets for over 2 yrs now.
It doesnt even matter if folks are playing EQ/EQ2/etc..and not SWG..."insult em some more" appears to be the motto around here.
There are vets around here who are their own worst enemy...and just dont understand it.
You cant have alpha...and you cant have things entirely your way.
But you expect it your way....and I have no fracking clue why they would think that it should be the MO of the new game. They got a space sim in the first place that NEVER should of been made.
And if the angry vets cant get along with others, then they should find a lesser space based IP to build their sand-box in.
SW is too big a name to settle for less than 2M customers.
2M customers means lots of content that is balanced/polished...with a steady stream of more things to do.
And Fish...I dont know if it is true or not...but I heard gas to run a SUV cross country is breaking 100k or so. What ya think 50M buys anymore bro? That might put a down payment on a toilet seat for the Pentagon.
Seriously...what you would want I bet would take 100M if not more. Didnt WOW have 50M or so invested a few years back? And you want even more to it. Whats it gonna cost to do patches? Or emergency fixes for exploits...it is just too much IMO.
Absolutely correct.
I'm looking forward to when the Bioware game comes out, and the so-called "vets" are shunned because they've done nothing but insult SWG players for three years.
The players are responsible for the failure of SWG? Sounds like a viral marketing campaign to me! SOE is getting really desperate...
its the nge players seeing the end of the road finally. time to blame up the people who were forced out and even helped pay for the game they say they prefer...have to get that done before they head over to bioware and start stinkin up the forums over there...
Calling someone a NGE player is fighting words far as I am concerned. I tried that crap when they released it...dropped that real fast...and was getting it on my eq/eq2 all access for free since I had purchased it originally in the CU era.
Why cant folks accept their part around here? Get mad at any differing opinions since the NGE happened. What is it gonna be like if you share a server with folks like the ones found in other forums on MMORPG? You guys are the minority...most of us couldnt stand the "precious".
Pre-whatever flat out sucked. You cant insult folks cause they dont have the same opinion as ya...and even try to claim the high ground to boot. But again and again I see some vets try to equate not liking the precious to anything that causes nuclear fallout...or at least anti-christ associations thanks to dealing with Smeds company. If it isnt things of those nature, then the reason folks dont like pre-whatever is cause they arent smart enough to understand it.
That has been the story coming from some vets for over 2 yrs now.
It doesnt even matter if folks are playing EQ/EQ2/etc..and not SWG..."insult em some more" appears to be the motto around here.
There are vets around here who are their own worst enemy...and just dont understand it.
You cant have alpha...and you cant have things entirely your way.
But you expect it your way....and I have no fracking clue why they would think that it should be the MO of the new game. They got a space sim in the first place that NEVER should of been made.
And if the angry vets cant get along with others, then they should find a lesser space based IP to build their sand-box in.
SW is too big a name to settle for less than 2M customers.
2M customers means lots of content that is balanced/polished...with a steady stream of more things to do.
And Fish...I dont know if it is true or not...but I heard gas to run a SUV cross country is breaking 100k or so. What ya think 50M buys anymore bro? That might put a down payment on a toilet seat for the Pentagon.
Seriously...what you would want I bet would take 100M if not more. Didnt WOW have 50M or so invested a few years back? And you want even more to it. Whats it gonna cost to do patches? Or emergency fixes for exploits...it is just too much IMO.
Absolutely correct.
I'm looking forward to when the Bioware game comes out, and the so-called "vets" are shunned because they've done nothing but insult SWG players for three years.
Most of my friends who played or still play SWG don't insult each other in fact. We created a guild forum when the NGE came out, so that we could keep in touch with each other despite going our separate ways.
I have the utmost respect for my friends who still play that game. I take issue with the people that fractured the community by taking something away from one audience, transforming it, and giving it to another target group. It's neither target audience's fault. The consumers weren't the decision makers.
That's a point I've hoped to make in this thread all along. The consumers weren't the decision makers. In fact even some of the lead developers weren't the decision makers. Some upper level management types decided to chuck out one game in the dead of night, and replace it with another, after just marketting a new expansion for the first game. This was a bad decision, and the people who made the decision carry full responsibility for it. In fact, players and even senior developers at SOE told management it was a bad decision. Some even asked to be moved to other projects because they couldn't be part of it. I think at least one quit, and one was fired as well.
Now, having said that. Did players ask for changes to the original game? Yes. Were some complaints reasonable? I have no doubt. Were some players demanding and unreasonable? I'm sure they were. You're sure to get some of that in a crowd of 200 thousand subscribers. Did SOE and LEC management listen to these unrealistic complaints? Maybe they did.
You know, I'm an administrator. I get all kinds of crazy requests, ideas and complaints at work. You wouldn't believe some of the things that come across my desk lol. As the person with decision making authority though, I need to decide what to listen to, and what not to listen to. After I gather as much important information about an issue as I can, at the end of the day, I alone need to make a good decision. That's the role that SOE and LEC management played. That's why you get paid the big bucks.
Players give feedback, positive and negative. Management needs to be able to listen and respond wisely to that feedback. I don't think it's an easy job. Nevertheless, it's theirs to do, and they need to accept responsiblity for their choices (e.g. buggy release, CU and NGE) and their outcomes (e.g. massive subscription loss and ongoing controversy). Blaming players for the decisions of SOE and LEC managers is just wrong. It's an avoidance of responsiblity.
Originally posted by Moaky07 Originally posted by kryten Originally posted by vet-in-exile The players are responsible for the failure of SWG? Sounds like a viral marketing campaign to me! SOE is getting really desperate...
its the nge players seeing the end of the road finally. time to blame up the people who were forced out and even helped pay for the game they say they prefer...have to get that done before they head over to bioware and start stinkin up the forums over there...
Calling someone a NGE player is fighting words far as I am concerned. I tried that crap when they released it...dropped that real fast...and was getting it on my eq/eq2 all access for free since I had purchased it originally in the CU era. Why cant folks accept their part around here? Get mad at any differing opinions since the NGE happened. What is it gonna be like if you share a server with folks like the ones found in other forums on MMORPG? You guys are the minority...most of us couldnt stand the "precious". Pre-whatever flat out sucked. You cant insult folks cause they dont have the same opinion as ya...and even try to claim the high ground to boot. But again and again I see some vets try to equate not liking the precious to anything that causes nuclear fallout...or at least anti-christ associations thanks to dealing with Smeds company. If it isnt things of those nature, then the reason folks dont like pre-whatever is cause they arent smart enough to understand it. That has been the story coming from some vets for over 2 yrs now. It doesnt even matter if folks are playing EQ/EQ2/etc..and not SWG..."insult em some more" appears to be the motto around here. There are vets around here who are their own worst enemy...and just dont understand it. You cant have alpha...and you cant have things entirely your way. But you expect it your way....and I have no fracking clue why they would think that it should be the MO of the new game. They got a space sim in the first place that NEVER should of been made.
And if the angry vets cant get along with others, then they should find a lesser space based IP to build their sand-box in. SW is too big a name to settle for less than 2M customers. 2M customers means lots of content that is balanced/polished...with a steady stream of more things to do. And Fish...I dont know if it is true or not...but I heard gas to run a SUV cross country is breaking 100k or so. What ya think 50M buys anymore bro? That might put a down payment on a toilet seat for the Pentagon. Seriously...what you would want I bet would take 100M if not more. Didnt WOW have 50M or so invested a few years back? And you want even more to it. Whats it gonna cost to do patches? Or emergency fixes for exploits...it is just too much IMO.
WoW was made on about 37 million -- Vanguard on 35, but most of that went into coke and beer (not to underestimate the value of coke and beer on morale, mind you), or that's how I heard it. Inflation has gone up about 1.1 % due to rising oil prices so far. It surely hasn't hit game development yet. I say 50 based upon those figures, and knowing that new technology has come along that can make multiple transactions faster, easier, and with less lag, and that Bioware is using that technology.
However, just to be nice, let's say 65 mil, which is what I heard they are spending on THIS game. That's enough to make a Sandbox with Toys. I could do it with 50, but lesser beings might take 65
Originally posted by Costanza420 Originally posted by Moaky07 Originally posted by kryten Originally posted by vet-in-exile The players are responsible for the failure of SWG? Sounds like a viral marketing campaign to me! SOE is getting really desperate...
its the nge players seeing the end of the road finally. time to blame up the people who were forced out and even helped pay for the game they say they prefer...have to get that done before they head over to bioware and start stinkin up the forums over there...
Calling someone a NGE player is fighting words far as I am concerned. I tried that crap when they released it...dropped that real fast...and was getting it on my eq/eq2 all access for free since I had purchased it originally in the CU era. Why cant folks accept their part around here? Get mad at any differing opinions since the NGE happened. What is it gonna be like if you share a server with folks like the ones found in other forums on MMORPG? You guys are the minority...most of us couldnt stand the "precious". Pre-whatever flat out sucked. You cant insult folks cause they dont have the same opinion as ya...and even try to claim the high ground to boot. But again and again I see some vets try to equate not liking the precious to anything that causes nuclear fallout...or at least anti-christ associations thanks to dealing with Smeds company. If it isnt things of those nature, then the reason folks dont like pre-whatever is cause they arent smart enough to understand it. That has been the story coming from some vets for over 2 yrs now. It doesnt even matter if folks are playing EQ/EQ2/etc..and not SWG..."insult em some more" appears to be the motto around here. There are vets around here who are their own worst enemy...and just dont understand it. You cant have alpha...and you cant have things entirely your way. But you expect it your way....and I have no fracking clue why they would think that it should be the MO of the new game. They got a space sim in the first place that NEVER should of been made.
And if the angry vets cant get along with others, then they should find a lesser space based IP to build their sand-box in. SW is too big a name to settle for less than 2M customers. 2M customers means lots of content that is balanced/polished...with a steady stream of more things to do. And Fish...I dont know if it is true or not...but I heard gas to run a SUV cross country is breaking 100k or so. What ya think 50M buys anymore bro? That might put a down payment on a toilet seat for the Pentagon. Seriously...what you would want I bet would take 100M if not more. Didnt WOW have 50M or so invested a few years back? And you want even more to it. Whats it gonna cost to do patches? Or emergency fixes for exploits...it is just too much IMO.
Absolutely correct. I'm looking forward to when the Bioware game comes out, and the so-called "vets" are shunned because they've done nothing but insult SWG players for three years.
Sorry, it goes more the other way.
I should know, because I am a current player who is highly critical of SOE. I get flamed by BOTH sides, which more or less proves my fairness, but I get flamed MUCH more by the fans of SWG than the vets.
Go on the Official forums. Make a post that says, "great job, DEVs!" about anything. the post will drop like a stone.
But breathe a word of the mildest criticism, and you will see pages of flames from the NGE horde. Those flamers almost never get banned, but should anyone ctitical of SOE say anything SLIGHTLY against the rules, and it's bye bye.
The same way here. If you are ctitical of SOE, even ANSWERING a flame gets you banned, although flaming from either side CAN still get you banned it is much easier to get banned if you are anti-SOE.
So to be sure, there is hate on both sides, and I've been hit by both -- but the biggest haters, the nastiest ones, the ones who rip and tear and scream the loudest, are by far the pro SOE crowd. Note I am not saying pro-NGE. In reality, there are about five of those. There are a good deal more who are pro-SWG (but know pre-CU was better).
There are many more pro-SOE types, and they defend SWG as surely as they defend the EQ family. I doubt most of them are paid viral marketers (although SONY HAS been caught using them), just your traditional corporate fanboys.
Remember, this is coming from a guy who is regularly called a traitor and a sell-out by the anti-NGE movement. I enjoy my position. By watching the arrows fly on both sides, I am in a unique position to count them.
SWG's downfall was due to complete and utter mismanagement by SOE. LEC was little more than an enabler. The CU and NGE were a direct result of SOE not listening to what their existing customers, and the folks who quit the game, were asking for. The main reason people gave for wuitting the game was the lack of directed content. When players complained that the game didn't feel like Star Wars, they were complaining that there was little to do in the game that seemd like what we saw in the films or read about in the books and comics. What was the response by the developers? They decided to tweak the core game mechanics with a sledgehammer. It takes a special kind of incompetence to interpret "We want content!" as "We hate the game systems!". That was the kind of incompetence running things at SOE. When the folks at LEC asked why the game wasn't doing as well as expected, the folks at SOE blamed the core game systems. The core game was never the problem until the CU (and the NGE compounded it a hundred fold). Had the developers focused on fixing the original game, and adding content (the game was always intended to include directd content and user generated contenent, such as the Storyteller System, in the initial design), SWG would have gotten much closer to the million sub number than it did. Anyone who blames anybody except the folks at SOe for SWG's ignoble history hasn't been paying attention.
I tend to agree with most of this post.
When the hell did SOE ever really listen to the player base,much less actually act on it..They didn't listen to us even in beta when we were telling them about bugs and exploits..If they listened to the players..It wouldn't have launched for at least 4-6 months later than it did.A good 80% of the beta players were trying to tell them..HEY IT'S NOT DONE YET.
And..the simple fact that there are still bugs in SWG that were there five freeking years ago.
I'll give SOE this tho..They may have a really small player base in SWG now compared to pre-cu/nge..but they sure have them trained well now..Players are on there knees praising SOE for improving the game........by putting back in some small pieces of pre-cu/nge...go figure..
If folks are still around here come the 3 yr mark, I think I will turn us all into Dr Phil.
Them for not letting go...me for not being able to look away.
Well that and finding humor in all of it.
Course I am still mad they didnt give us a content-laden game to begin with...rather than SIMS in space.
So technically this vet has been mad longer than those vets. So that would be me a senior vet vet...with honors and a kick-stand.
You say that 5 times in a row fast-like and you win a biscuit
And I'm still annoyed they didn't give us what they said they were gonna -- a sandbox with toys. I'm still waiting for that Holy Grail of MMOs.
I know the SWG folks wouldnt want it...
But a game I think would be more suitable for sandbox would be the new Battlestar Galactica saga.
It wuldnt be as big of a title....which would be good for 200-300k numbers. Not only that, there would be a reason for everyone in the fleet to have jobs if they didnt wanna do the fighting.
They already have a RPG out based on it...Serenity as well.
I was thinking it wouldn't since the character's journey really carry that show. Much like Star Wars does to casual fans. At least in Star Wars there were a ton of side characters like Uncle Owen lol.
Don't get me wrong I would love more than anything this side of a vicodin soma cocktail to be running my chef empire right now and I do miss it, I just don't think BSG would work for those reasons.
Well let's blame it on the players, Lucas Arts and accountants.
I honestly have to say that somewhere someone or a group of "non designers" were calling the shots. Anyone who knows George Lucas' history of his tight grip on everything "Star Wars" (rightly so) can easily understand that he was more than likely "at the helm" of SWG.
SWG started off with some of the greatest MMORPG "minds and talent" in the industry. If anyone ever read some of their original plans/goals they can see where they completely compromised or had their design compromised after they left.
The leaving of these devs and the continual in and out of others makes one think of the possible conflicts that were ongoing with LA.
I've played since launch and I could probably find some of the posts from Devs about how rare Jedi were going to be and how hard it was going to be to play them.
Can anyone say character perma-death!!
I think some bean counters went onto the SWG forums and without MMORPG game forum experience saw all the "whiners" posts.
Anyone who has been around knows game forums attract the whiny people who have more forum time than game time.
I honestly believe that SWG attracted a large portion of Star Wars fans that weren't "gamers".
These gamers came to SWG to play Jedi and yes other professions but let's face it the "Master Replicas" is in the lightsaber memorabilia business, WalMart sold tons of lightsabers with the new movies, not blasters and power hammers.
Everyone remember "I want Jedi to be rare ,except for my account?" Sure you do, you all claim to be glorious SWG vets.
That post held so true for the SW fans and even some of the gamer "elitists" who relish accomplishments over other players.
That was the first pressure from the players base....
Most of those posts were about how hard it was to figure out how to become a Jedi. Even though all the press had told them it would be hard they still complained and wanted it "rare, except for their account" while the rest of us were ingame working on it.
Shoot, the game population(me included) was so slow that the devs had to give us hints. That was my first clue they were giving into the whiners.
Then when those people got their Jedi they whined about the finality of their characters life. So there went perma death, then visibility, then open pvp!
Now who's to blame for that? Think rationally now. It started with the player base. " I want Jedi, Jedi is too hard, stop the forced pvp." While we "gamers" were in game trying to avoid perma death, visibility, loving the rarity and hardcoreness of our profession those others were the very vocal populace on the SOE forums getting listened to by ???? The devs? Lucas Arts? SOE?
All the press told us what it was going to be like to play a Jedi yet those types got into the game and then flooded the forums till Jedi got nerfed to crap. Imagine what this game would be like if just those things had stayed in place with Jedi.
Jedi was designed for the "hardcore" and only the hardcore would have stuck with it.
As for the arguement of timeline- give me a break. First off lose your console mentality. This is an MMORPG there is no "end game" there is no time "lock". It's a forward moving world.
I once posted to those same whiners, then delete your Jedi if you are so thoroughly convicted to "canon". Guess how many did?
Well somewhere some non gamer geek said all our models from Everquest and Everquest2 show that players like to have things handed to them. WoW's success proves these theories to be true so we need to change SWG to those styles.
Well we all know how wrong they were now. It sure did drive subscriptions....away
I recently read somewhere on a forum about someone complaining about some game's interface and the reply was "it's the basic WoW interface, the industry standard. It's what all MMORPG's will use.
How boring is that?
Well I tried to play WoW at launch and 2 more times since. I never lasted more than a couple of weeks.
I'm an mmorpg player, not a "console player online"
I've played Ultima online since launch and the only other mmorpg that I've kept playing in 10 years is SWG. *EQ2 doesn't count since I only play that because my wife likes it* rolleyes:
no offence but it will be the death of all starwars mmo's
SWG's downfall was due to complete and utter mismanagement by SOE. LEC was little more than an enabler. The CU and NGE were a direct result of SOE not listening to what their existing customers, and the folks who quit the game, were asking for. The main reason people gave for wuitting the game was the lack of directed content. When players complained that the game didn't feel like Star Wars, they were complaining that there was little to do in the game that seemd like what we saw in the films or read about in the books and comics. What was the response by the developers? They decided to tweak the core game mechanics with a sledgehammer. It takes a special kind of incompetence to interpret "We want content!" as "We hate the game systems!". That was the kind of incompetence running things at SOE. When the folks at LEC asked why the game wasn't doing as well as expected, the folks at SOE blamed the core game systems. The core game was never the problem until the CU (and the NGE compounded it a hundred fold). Had the developers focused on fixing the original game, and adding content (the game was always intended to include directd content and user generated contenent, such as the Storyteller System, in the initial design), SWG would have gotten much closer to the million sub number than it did. Anyone who blames anybody except the folks at SOe for SWG's ignoble history hasn't been paying attention.
I tend to agree with most of this post.
When the hell did SOE ever really listen to the player base,much less actually act on it..They didn't listen to us even in beta when we were telling them about bugs and exploits..If they listened to the players..It wouldn't have launched for at least 4-6 months later than it did.A good 80% of the beta players were trying to tell them..HEY IT'S NOT DONE YET.
And..the simple fact that there are still bugs in SWG that were there five freeking years ago.
I'll give SOE this tho..They may have a really small player base in SWG now compared to pre-cu/nge..but they sure have them trained well now..Players are on there knees praising SOE for improving the game........by putting back in some small pieces of pre-cu/nge...go figure..
well there is a line, one thing I had seen with the new GU5 weapons update is that players will fight for their loot as the best. Crafting is loathed by the NGE player base, blamed for everything from inflation to dwindling populations.
I'm sorry - SOE made some MASSIVE mistakes that cost them.
And they did some things that screwed the Jedi too. Namely the CU forced people to group and your group gave you visibility. Also in the CU they changed Lightsaber damage to "energy" meaning every BH after you was going to have that kind of armor.
Sony sure didn't listen to the "whiners" when they started complaining about the NGE...or the CU.
Lastly - I think a GOOD company SHOULD listen to the feedback from it's players. Don't you?
I think one of the reasons WoW is so popular is due to #1 Customer Support and #2 they REALLY listen to their players.
Nana... You appear to be trolling. If by chance you are naive to all of this....just look at all the recent posts by SWG vets and folks responses to em. There is a segment that folks despise for their actions over the years. It just so happens some of those despised ones post daily here in this very section. I gave a past history of incidents as well with a section of individuals. Although if you are here in the vet section, I dont understand you acting so dumb-founded about it all. Just find one of the posts where they claim Bioware even owes em. Priceless I tell ya. And you wanna call me manic? OK...if it helps ya sleep at night. Dr Phil would have a field-day with the vet forums. That is after he stopped laughing that folks couldnt let a video game go after almost 3 yrs.
Ahhh so your point of argument is that the Vets are acting just as bad due to there actions and behaviours, gotcha. Not trolling but I didnt have a clue what you were argueing about, you apeared 'manic' in your responses towards fishermage and I didnt know how it related to the topic.
Thanks for being understading though!!
With regards to blame, as long SOE is not involved then I dont care if its anything but star wars and well done... and that 2.5 years into the game they dont change it all... pretty much all I want from the game.
(delay in reply due to being asleep)
"Obi-Wan Kenobi: We were decieved by a lie; we all were. It appears that SOE is behind everything, including the NGE! After the death of CU, the NGE became their new apprentice."
Comments
And I'm still annoyed they didn't give us what they said they were gonna -- a sandbox with toys. I'm still waiting for that Holy Grail of MMOs.
I know the SWG folks wouldnt want it...
But a game I think would be more suitable for sandbox would be the new Battlestar Galactica saga.
It wuldnt be as big of a title....which would be good for 200-300k numbers. Not only that, there would be a reason for everyone in the fleet to have jobs if they didnt wanna do the fighting.
They already have a RPG out based on it...Serenity as well.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
And I'm still annoyed they didn't give us what they said they were gonna -- a sandbox with toys. I'm still waiting for that Holy Grail of MMOs.
I know the SWG folks wouldnt want it...
But a game I think would be more suitable for sandbox would be the new Battlestar Galactica saga.
It wuldnt be as big of a title....which would be good for 200-300k numbers. Not only that, there would be a reason for everyone in the fleet to have jobs if they didnt wanna do the fighting.
They already have a RPG out based on it...Serenity as well.
sounds good. I'd still prefer BOTH -- a sandbox WITH a ton of content. The game that does that will blow WoW away.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Its too much Fisher...
You can go heavy on the sandbox...heavy on the content...you just arent going to have it all IMO.
That game would cost the national debt to build/balance/debug. Each small patch a mini-Gates fortune to produce.
You are right though...if you could have it all it would make everyone happy.
I remember a Van Halen song that once had a lyric "Thats what dreams are made of..."
Certainly applicable here.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Disagree, I think it could be done for under 50 million, and would make much more than that in a year or two -- specialy if it had a successful IP to draw them in first.
It's not what dreams are made of, it's what success will be made of -- in the future.
fishermage.blogspot.com
There's been a "coincidental" influx of this kind of nonsense on these and likely similar forums ever since the announcement of the KOTOR MMO. It's almost as if some people feel threatened by the possibility of another StarWars MMO.
One of the best and most concise summaries of decision making and SWG that I've ever read. Very refreshing.
its the nge players seeing the end of the road finally. time to blame up the people who were forced out and even helped pay for the game they say they prefer...have to get that done before they head over to bioware and start stinkin up the forums over there...
its the nge players seeing the end of the road finally. time to blame up the people who were forced out and even helped pay for the game they say they prefer...have to get that done before they head over to bioware and start stinkin up the forums over there...
Calling someone a NGE player is fighting words far as I am concerned. I tried that crap when they released it...dropped that real fast...and was getting it on my eq/eq2 all access for free since I had purchased it originally in the CU era.
Why cant folks accept their part around here? Get mad at any differing opinions since the NGE happened. What is it gonna be like if you share a server with folks like the ones found in other forums on MMORPG? You guys are the minority...most of us couldnt stand the "precious".
Pre-whatever flat out sucked. You cant insult folks cause they dont have the same opinion as ya...and even try to claim the high ground to boot. But again and again I see some vets try to equate not liking the precious to anything that causes nuclear fallout...or at least anti-christ associations thanks to dealing with Smeds company. If it isnt things of those nature, then the reason folks dont like pre-whatever is cause they arent smart enough to understand it.
That has been the story coming from some vets for over 2 yrs now.
It doesnt even matter if folks are playing EQ/EQ2/etc..and not SWG..."insult em some more" appears to be the motto around here.
There are vets around here who are their own worst enemy...and just dont understand it.
You cant have alpha...and you cant have things entirely your way.
But you expect it your way....and I have no fracking clue why they would think that it should be the MO of the new game. They got a space sim in the first place that NEVER should of been made.
And if the angry vets cant get along with others, then they should find a lesser space based IP to build their sand-box in.
SW is too big a name to settle for less than 2M customers.
2M customers means lots of content that is balanced/polished...with a steady stream of more things to do.
And Fish...I dont know if it is true or not...but I heard gas to run a SUV cross country is breaking 100k or so. What ya think 50M buys anymore bro? That might put a down payment on a toilet seat for the Pentagon.
Seriously...what you would want I bet would take 100M if not more. Didnt WOW have 50M or so invested a few years back? And you want even more to it. Whats it gonna cost to do patches? Or emergency fixes for exploits...it is just too much IMO.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
its the nge players seeing the end of the road finally. time to blame up the people who were forced out and even helped pay for the game they say they prefer...have to get that done before they head over to bioware and start stinkin up the forums over there...
Calling someone a NGE player is fighting words far as I am concerned. I tried that crap when they released it...dropped that real fast...and was getting it on my eq/eq2 all access for free since I had purchased it originally in the CU era.
Why cant folks accept their part around here? Get mad at any differing opinions since the NGE happened. What is it gonna be like if you share a server with folks like the ones found in other forums on MMORPG? You guys are the minority...most of us couldnt stand the "precious".
Pre-whatever flat out sucked. You cant insult folks cause they dont have the same opinion as ya...and even try to claim the high ground to boot. But again and again I see some vets try to equate not liking the precious to anything that causes nuclear fallout...or at least anti-christ associations thanks to dealing with Smeds company. If it isnt things of those nature, then the reason folks dont like pre-whatever is cause they arent smart enough to understand it.
That has been the story coming from some vets for over 2 yrs now.
It doesnt even matter if folks are playing EQ/EQ2/etc..and not SWG..."insult em some more" appears to be the motto around here.
There are vets around here who are their own worst enemy...and just dont understand it.
You cant have alpha...and you cant have things entirely your way.
But you expect it your way....and I have no fracking clue why they would think that it should be the MO of the new game. They got a space sim in the first place that NEVER should of been made.
And if the angry vets cant get along with others, then they should find a lesser space based IP to build their sand-box in.
SW is too big a name to settle for less than 2M customers.
2M customers means lots of content that is balanced/polished...with a steady stream of more things to do.
And Fish...I dont know if it is true or not...but I heard gas to run a SUV cross country is breaking 100k or so. What ya think 50M buys anymore bro? That might put a down payment on a toilet seat for the Pentagon.
Seriously...what you would want I bet would take 100M if not more. Didnt WOW have 50M or so invested a few years back? And you want even more to it. Whats it gonna cost to do patches? Or emergency fixes for exploits...it is just too much IMO.
Absolutely correct.
I'm looking forward to when the Bioware game comes out, and the so-called "vets" are shunned because they've done nothing but insult SWG players for three years.
its the nge players seeing the end of the road finally. time to blame up the people who were forced out and even helped pay for the game they say they prefer...have to get that done before they head over to bioware and start stinkin up the forums over there...
Calling someone a NGE player is fighting words far as I am concerned. I tried that crap when they released it...dropped that real fast...and was getting it on my eq/eq2 all access for free since I had purchased it originally in the CU era.
Why cant folks accept their part around here? Get mad at any differing opinions since the NGE happened. What is it gonna be like if you share a server with folks like the ones found in other forums on MMORPG? You guys are the minority...most of us couldnt stand the "precious".
Pre-whatever flat out sucked. You cant insult folks cause they dont have the same opinion as ya...and even try to claim the high ground to boot. But again and again I see some vets try to equate not liking the precious to anything that causes nuclear fallout...or at least anti-christ associations thanks to dealing with Smeds company. If it isnt things of those nature, then the reason folks dont like pre-whatever is cause they arent smart enough to understand it.
That has been the story coming from some vets for over 2 yrs now.
It doesnt even matter if folks are playing EQ/EQ2/etc..and not SWG..."insult em some more" appears to be the motto around here.
There are vets around here who are their own worst enemy...and just dont understand it.
You cant have alpha...and you cant have things entirely your way.
But you expect it your way....and I have no fracking clue why they would think that it should be the MO of the new game. They got a space sim in the first place that NEVER should of been made.
And if the angry vets cant get along with others, then they should find a lesser space based IP to build their sand-box in.
SW is too big a name to settle for less than 2M customers.
2M customers means lots of content that is balanced/polished...with a steady stream of more things to do.
And Fish...I dont know if it is true or not...but I heard gas to run a SUV cross country is breaking 100k or so. What ya think 50M buys anymore bro? That might put a down payment on a toilet seat for the Pentagon.
Seriously...what you would want I bet would take 100M if not more. Didnt WOW have 50M or so invested a few years back? And you want even more to it. Whats it gonna cost to do patches? Or emergency fixes for exploits...it is just too much IMO.
Absolutely correct.
I'm looking forward to when the Bioware game comes out, and the so-called "vets" are shunned because they've done nothing but insult SWG players for three years.
Most of my friends who played or still play SWG don't insult each other in fact. We created a guild forum when the NGE came out, so that we could keep in touch with each other despite going our separate ways.
I have the utmost respect for my friends who still play that game. I take issue with the people that fractured the community by taking something away from one audience, transforming it, and giving it to another target group. It's neither target audience's fault. The consumers weren't the decision makers.
That's a point I've hoped to make in this thread all along. The consumers weren't the decision makers. In fact even some of the lead developers weren't the decision makers. Some upper level management types decided to chuck out one game in the dead of night, and replace it with another, after just marketting a new expansion for the first game. This was a bad decision, and the people who made the decision carry full responsibility for it. In fact, players and even senior developers at SOE told management it was a bad decision. Some even asked to be moved to other projects because they couldn't be part of it. I think at least one quit, and one was fired as well.
Now, having said that. Did players ask for changes to the original game? Yes. Were some complaints reasonable? I have no doubt. Were some players demanding and unreasonable? I'm sure they were. You're sure to get some of that in a crowd of 200 thousand subscribers. Did SOE and LEC management listen to these unrealistic complaints? Maybe they did.
You know, I'm an administrator. I get all kinds of crazy requests, ideas and complaints at work. You wouldn't believe some of the things that come across my desk lol. As the person with decision making authority though, I need to decide what to listen to, and what not to listen to. After I gather as much important information about an issue as I can, at the end of the day, I alone need to make a good decision. That's the role that SOE and LEC management played. That's why you get paid the big bucks.
Players give feedback, positive and negative. Management needs to be able to listen and respond wisely to that feedback. I don't think it's an easy job. Nevertheless, it's theirs to do, and they need to accept responsiblity for their choices (e.g. buggy release, CU and NGE) and their outcomes (e.g. massive subscription loss and ongoing controversy). Blaming players for the decisions of SOE and LEC managers is just wrong. It's an avoidance of responsiblity.
its the nge players seeing the end of the road finally. time to blame up the people who were forced out and even helped pay for the game they say they prefer...have to get that done before they head over to bioware and start stinkin up the forums over there...
Calling someone a NGE player is fighting words far as I am concerned. I tried that crap when they released it...dropped that real fast...and was getting it on my eq/eq2 all access for free since I had purchased it originally in the CU era.
Why cant folks accept their part around here? Get mad at any differing opinions since the NGE happened. What is it gonna be like if you share a server with folks like the ones found in other forums on MMORPG? You guys are the minority...most of us couldnt stand the "precious".
Pre-whatever flat out sucked. You cant insult folks cause they dont have the same opinion as ya...and even try to claim the high ground to boot. But again and again I see some vets try to equate not liking the precious to anything that causes nuclear fallout...or at least anti-christ associations thanks to dealing with Smeds company. If it isnt things of those nature, then the reason folks dont like pre-whatever is cause they arent smart enough to understand it.
That has been the story coming from some vets for over 2 yrs now.
It doesnt even matter if folks are playing EQ/EQ2/etc..and not SWG..."insult em some more" appears to be the motto around here.
There are vets around here who are their own worst enemy...and just dont understand it.
You cant have alpha...and you cant have things entirely your way.
But you expect it your way....and I have no fracking clue why they would think that it should be the MO of the new game. They got a space sim in the first place that NEVER should of been made.
And if the angry vets cant get along with others, then they should find a lesser space based IP to build their sand-box in.
SW is too big a name to settle for less than 2M customers.
2M customers means lots of content that is balanced/polished...with a steady stream of more things to do.
And Fish...I dont know if it is true or not...but I heard gas to run a SUV cross country is breaking 100k or so. What ya think 50M buys anymore bro? That might put a down payment on a toilet seat for the Pentagon.
Seriously...what you would want I bet would take 100M if not more. Didnt WOW have 50M or so invested a few years back? And you want even more to it. Whats it gonna cost to do patches? Or emergency fixes for exploits...it is just too much IMO.
WoW was made on about 37 million -- Vanguard on 35, but most of that went into coke and beer (not to underestimate the value of coke and beer on morale, mind you), or that's how I heard it. Inflation has gone up about 1.1 % due to rising oil prices so far. It surely hasn't hit game development yet. I say 50 based upon those figures, and knowing that new technology has come along that can make multiple transactions faster, easier, and with less lag, and that Bioware is using that technology.
However, just to be nice, let's say 65 mil, which is what I heard they are spending on THIS game. That's enough to make a Sandbox with Toys. I could do it with 50, but lesser beings might take 65
fishermage.blogspot.com
its the nge players seeing the end of the road finally. time to blame up the people who were forced out and even helped pay for the game they say they prefer...have to get that done before they head over to bioware and start stinkin up the forums over there...
Calling someone a NGE player is fighting words far as I am concerned. I tried that crap when they released it...dropped that real fast...and was getting it on my eq/eq2 all access for free since I had purchased it originally in the CU era.
Why cant folks accept their part around here? Get mad at any differing opinions since the NGE happened. What is it gonna be like if you share a server with folks like the ones found in other forums on MMORPG? You guys are the minority...most of us couldnt stand the "precious".
Pre-whatever flat out sucked. You cant insult folks cause they dont have the same opinion as ya...and even try to claim the high ground to boot. But again and again I see some vets try to equate not liking the precious to anything that causes nuclear fallout...or at least anti-christ associations thanks to dealing with Smeds company. If it isnt things of those nature, then the reason folks dont like pre-whatever is cause they arent smart enough to understand it.
That has been the story coming from some vets for over 2 yrs now.
It doesnt even matter if folks are playing EQ/EQ2/etc..and not SWG..."insult em some more" appears to be the motto around here.
There are vets around here who are their own worst enemy...and just dont understand it.
You cant have alpha...and you cant have things entirely your way.
But you expect it your way....and I have no fracking clue why they would think that it should be the MO of the new game. They got a space sim in the first place that NEVER should of been made.
And if the angry vets cant get along with others, then they should find a lesser space based IP to build their sand-box in.
SW is too big a name to settle for less than 2M customers.
2M customers means lots of content that is balanced/polished...with a steady stream of more things to do.
And Fish...I dont know if it is true or not...but I heard gas to run a SUV cross country is breaking 100k or so. What ya think 50M buys anymore bro? That might put a down payment on a toilet seat for the Pentagon.
Seriously...what you would want I bet would take 100M if not more. Didnt WOW have 50M or so invested a few years back? And you want even more to it. Whats it gonna cost to do patches? Or emergency fixes for exploits...it is just too much IMO.
Absolutely correct.
I'm looking forward to when the Bioware game comes out, and the so-called "vets" are shunned because they've done nothing but insult SWG players for three years.
Sorry, it goes more the other way.
I should know, because I am a current player who is highly critical of SOE. I get flamed by BOTH sides, which more or less proves my fairness, but I get flamed MUCH more by the fans of SWG than the vets.
Go on the Official forums. Make a post that says, "great job, DEVs!" about anything. the post will drop like a stone.
But breathe a word of the mildest criticism, and you will see pages of flames from the NGE horde. Those flamers almost never get banned, but should anyone ctitical of SOE say anything SLIGHTLY against the rules, and it's bye bye.
The same way here. If you are ctitical of SOE, even ANSWERING a flame gets you banned, although flaming from either side CAN still get you banned it is much easier to get banned if you are anti-SOE.
So to be sure, there is hate on both sides, and I've been hit by both -- but the biggest haters, the nastiest ones, the ones who rip and tear and scream the loudest, are by far the pro SOE crowd. Note I am not saying pro-NGE. In reality, there are about five of those. There are a good deal more who are pro-SWG (but know pre-CU was better).
There are many more pro-SOE types, and they defend SWG as surely as they defend the EQ family. I doubt most of them are paid viral marketers (although SONY HAS been caught using them), just your traditional corporate fanboys.
Remember, this is coming from a guy who is regularly called a traitor and a sell-out by the anti-NGE movement. I enjoy my position. By watching the arrows fly on both sides, I am in a unique position to count them.
I do so enjoy witnessing the farce.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I tend to agree with most of this post.
When the hell did SOE ever really listen to the player base,much less actually act on it..They didn't listen to us even in beta when we were telling them about bugs and exploits..If they listened to the players..It wouldn't have launched for at least 4-6 months later than it did.A good 80% of the beta players were trying to tell them..HEY IT'S NOT DONE YET.
And..the simple fact that there are still bugs in SWG that were there five freeking years ago.
I'll give SOE this tho..They may have a really small player base in SWG now compared to pre-cu/nge..but they sure have them trained well now..Players are on there knees praising SOE for improving the game........by putting back in some small pieces of pre-cu/nge...go figure..
And I'm still annoyed they didn't give us what they said they were gonna -- a sandbox with toys. I'm still waiting for that Holy Grail of MMOs.
I know the SWG folks wouldnt want it...
But a game I think would be more suitable for sandbox would be the new Battlestar Galactica saga.
It wuldnt be as big of a title....which would be good for 200-300k numbers. Not only that, there would be a reason for everyone in the fleet to have jobs if they didnt wanna do the fighting.
They already have a RPG out based on it...Serenity as well.
I was thinking it wouldn't since the character's journey really carry that show. Much like Star Wars does to casual fans. At least in Star Wars there were a ton of side characters like Uncle Owen lol.
Don't get me wrong I would love more than anything this side of a vicodin soma cocktail to be running my chef empire right now and I do miss it, I just don't think BSG would work for those reasons.
no offence but it will be the death of all starwars mmo's
if the next one don't get the numbers they want, watch out lol
I tend to agree with most of this post.
When the hell did SOE ever really listen to the player base,much less actually act on it..They didn't listen to us even in beta when we were telling them about bugs and exploits..If they listened to the players..It wouldn't have launched for at least 4-6 months later than it did.A good 80% of the beta players were trying to tell them..HEY IT'S NOT DONE YET.
And..the simple fact that there are still bugs in SWG that were there five freeking years ago.
I'll give SOE this tho..They may have a really small player base in SWG now compared to pre-cu/nge..but they sure have them trained well now..Players are on there knees praising SOE for improving the game........by putting back in some small pieces of pre-cu/nge...go figure..
well there is a line, one thing I had seen with the new GU5 weapons update is that players will fight for their loot as the best. Crafting is loathed by the NGE player base, blamed for everything from inflation to dwindling populations.
I'm sorry - SOE made some MASSIVE mistakes that cost them.
And they did some things that screwed the Jedi too. Namely the CU forced people to group and your group gave you visibility. Also in the CU they changed Lightsaber damage to "energy" meaning every BH after you was going to have that kind of armor.
Sony sure didn't listen to the "whiners" when they started complaining about the NGE...or the CU.
Lastly - I think a GOOD company SHOULD listen to the feedback from it's players. Don't you?
I think one of the reasons WoW is so popular is due to #1 Customer Support and #2 they REALLY listen to their players.
Ahhh so your point of argument is that the Vets are acting just as bad due to there actions and behaviours, gotcha. Not trolling but I didnt have a clue what you were argueing about, you apeared 'manic' in your responses towards fishermage and I didnt know how it related to the topic.
Thanks for being understading though!!
With regards to blame, as long SOE is not involved then I dont care if its anything but star wars and well done... and that 2.5 years into the game they dont change it all... pretty much all I want from the game.
(delay in reply due to being asleep)
"Obi-Wan Kenobi: We were decieved by a lie; we all were. It appears that SOE is behind everything, including the NGE! After the death of CU, the NGE became their new apprentice."