Grouping should never be forced because it restricts freedom. That is what MMORPGs are about, freedom. I am not saying grouping should not have benefits, but it should NEVER be forced upon people.
Now interdependencies is something I support, because selling a service (like crafting) is not the same as forced grouping. But forcing players to need to spend longer periods of online time together is a bad idea.
And socializing? You know what is about socializing mainly? Myspace and Facebook. I'm not saying you can't have socializing in MMORPGs, but I rather do it when I want to in a MMORPG, not be forced to socialize.
I voted NO cause I genuinly dislike handhold games and forced grouping is to me just another handhold feature.
I mean I don't need forced grouping cause I am able to creat or get invited into a group, to me grouping is also not about lvling or gaining extra stuff, to me grouping is because it CAN be FUN, sorry I am kinda a niche player and don't need a game to guide me into forced feature's.
I've have moods I enjoy solo, I have moods I want to have fun with some groups or go duo. And I can have a mood I want it all in my playsession meaning abit of solo play and some group/duo play.
Forced grouping is nothing but annoying. Why should I have to sit around for 3+ hours trying to find a decent group? That's why I decided to stop playing FFXI. I wouldn't want to earn exp 3x slower solo either. I already spend enough time playing mmo's. Only bosses and special group oriented content should require a group in my opinion.
However, the CoH game play is a little fast, to the point that there's almost no downtime for chatting or socializing when you're in a group. Not much if any downtime required between battles, and travel requires a lot of button mashing, so again not much time for chat during travel. I found a lot of groups were, fight, kill, kill, xp, xp, heal, go left, wait, ok, let's go, where's the boss mob?, this way, kill some more, reward, thanks for group.
Well that's not my experience of PUG-ing in CoX. (Bear in mind that most of my experience is EU-side in late evening play, it may be a bit different, say, at peak time on Freedom when it's full of kids come home from school, or tired workers who just want a quick, relaxing blast.)
Not only is CoX an MMO in which I, as a casual player, did not feel forced to group, yet (unlike every other MMO I've tried) hardly ever soloed, it's also, of the MMOs I've tried, the MMO in which there was the most in-game banter in groups.
The reason being, I think, because rp-ing in a fantasy settting requires some attention to one's language to be IC. Whereas to rp a superhero IC one can talk fairly normally. Hence, in groups I was in, it was tremendous fun - witty superheroish banter flying back and forth constantly.
Admittedly this was actually usually only in missions - for some reason people got a bit shy outside missions, and outside of missions it was more the "hardcore" rp-ers who would carry on rp-ing.
I reiterate my point: of all the MMOs I've tried since CoX, in every one of them I've soloed more than teamed. Yet in CoX, which had no artificial mechanisms to force me to solo (and in which, in fact, soloing was quite good fun too, due to interesting story arcs if you read all the "clues"), I just naturally teamed far more than I soloed - I didn't feel pressured into doing so, it was just such huge fun teaming that I wanted to team, wanted the buzz of playing with other human beings against the baddies.
This is all the more remarkable in that, when I started playing CoH, I was absolutely determined not to play with other people, because at that time I had a snobbish view that most people playing the game would be kids, and I'm ashamed to admit now that as an older adult I felt a bit guilty and embarrassed about playing in a superhero MMO. But as soon as I got the taste for it, I came to love teaming. It's been a matter of some disappointment to me to find that the grouping experience in every other MMO has failed to give me the same social gameplay buzz (I am of course speaking as a casual player - I understand it will be different for those committed to Guild-type organisations).
Would you play a forced grouping game? In otherwords, this game would not be like WoW, where you can do almost all the quests by yourself, and you can group if you want to, but it's not necessary because you level just as fast not grouping. (I"m talking about pre-max level, i.e. BEFORE WoW turns into a raiding game). I'm not saying you couldn't do ANYTHING without a group, but leveling (or gaining skill points in a skill based game) would be 4 or 5 times slower solo than in a decent group. You could access all the content, and get all the same gear, but you'd have to level, and come back to lower level zones to do some of the dungeons solo to get the gear, etc.
Asheron's call 2 had had very good party sytem and was always fun, doing quests or grind with group always very good xp in group in that game.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I think 90% of you all may be missing the point of this thread. It's not that we should making grouping forced per say but give MAJOR advantages for grouping over soloing. Like 5-10 times more experience and/or loot. And un-instanced dungeons to explore. Where you CAN explore solo but you won't see all the content without a good group.
This is pretty much the way old EverQuest was. There were classes that could solo to max level but grouping made things so much easier and you had a blast while doing it.
It is true that we don't need a game where we sit around for 2+ hours seeking a group. We need a game where we can solo for 2+ hours while seeking a group thats gonna put soloing to complete shame.
I think 90% of you all may be missing the point of this thread. It's not that we should making grouping forced per say but give MAJOR advantages for grouping over soloing. Like 5-10 times more experience and/or loot. And un-instanced dungeons to explore. Where you CAN explore solo but you won't see all the content without a good group. This is pretty much the way old EverQuest was. There were classes that could solo to max level but grouping made things so much easier and you had a blast while doing it. It is true that we don't need a game where we sit around for 2+ hours seeking a group. We need a game where we can solo for 2+ hours while seeking a group thats gonna put soloing to complete shame.
Actually I think you are the one missing something. If you make solo play essentially unproductive you are seriously neutering.
This is what happened in EQ and many people hated it.
What you are missing is that people want to log on and make progress. Real progress. Solo or in a group 5-10 times is so punitive that in comparison people will not feel like what they are doing is productive and that will be the kiss of death to any RPG based game.
Rob Pardo understood this about EQ1 back when he used to play it and he purposely designed WoW with this in mind.
I understood this about EQ1 from taking a look at its design and my previous experience in MUDs. That is why I avoided EQ1 like the plague.
What you are proposing is forcing a group players and a style of play that is unproductive. This is possibly the worst thing you can do to an RPG. As soon as an RPG feels unproductive it is dead.
Keep in mind this about what is true in PRACTICE. You can argue all you want that people can still do stuff. That doesn't mean anything at all because that is not how people will judge productivity. An hour of solo will be compared to an hour of grouping consciously or unconsciously and people will view that hour of solo as a waste. And they should, even a complete moron understand that 10% efficiency sucks.
I think 90% of you all may be missing the point of this thread. It's not that we should making grouping forced per say but give MAJOR advantages for grouping over soloing. Like 5-10 times more experience and/or loot. And un-instanced dungeons to explore. Where you CAN explore solo but you won't see all the content without a good group. This is pretty much the way old EverQuest was. There were classes that could solo to max level but grouping made things so much easier and you had a blast while doing it. It is true that we don't need a game where we sit around for 2+ hours seeking a group. We need a game where we can solo for 2+ hours while seeking a group thats gonna put soloing to complete shame.
Actually I think you are the one missing something. If you make solo play essentially unproductive you are seriously neutering.
This is what happened in EQ and many people hated it.
What you are missing is that people want to log on and make progress. Real progress. Solo or in a group 5-10 times is so punitive that in comparison people will not feel like what they are doing is productive and that will be the kiss of death to any RPG based game.
Rob Pardo understood this about EQ1 back when he used to play it and he purposely designed WoW with this in mind.
I understood this about EQ1 from taking a look at its design and my previous experience in MUDs. That is why I avoided EQ1 like the plague.
What you are proposing is forcing a group players and a style of play that is unproductive. This is possibly the worst thing you can do to an RPG. As soon as an RPG feels unproductive it is dead.
Keep in mind this about what is true in PRACTICE. You can argue all you want that people can still do stuff. That doesn't mean anything at all because that is not how people will judge productivity. An hour of solo will be compared to an hour of grouping consciously or unconsciously and people will view that hour of solo as a waste. And they should, even a complete moron understand that 10% efficiency sucks.
You're entitled to your opinion but I'm just saying I don't want to see yet another game like WoW released. Especially a PvE game. Soloing in a MMO is boring as watching paint dry (most of the time). If I wanted to exclusively solo I would play a single player console RPG thats certain to be way more entertaining.
I think 90% of you all may be missing the point of this thread. It's not that we should making grouping forced per say but give MAJOR advantages for grouping over soloing. Like 5-10 times more experience and/or loot. And un-instanced dungeons to explore. Where you CAN explore solo but you won't see all the content without a good group. This is pretty much the way old EverQuest was. There were classes that could solo to max level but grouping made things so much easier and you had a blast while doing it. It is true that we don't need a game where we sit around for 2+ hours seeking a group. We need a game where we can solo for 2+ hours while seeking a group thats gonna put soloing to complete shame.
Actually I think you are the one missing something. If you make solo play essentially unproductive you are seriously neutering.
This is what happened in EQ and many people hated it.
What you are missing is that people want to log on and make progress. Real progress. Solo or in a group 5-10 times is so punitive that in comparison people will not feel like what they are doing is productive and that will be the kiss of death to any RPG based game.
Rob Pardo understood this about EQ1 back when he used to play it and he purposely designed WoW with this in mind.
I understood this about EQ1 from taking a look at its design and my previous experience in MUDs. That is why I avoided EQ1 like the plague.
What you are proposing is forcing a group players and a style of play that is unproductive. This is possibly the worst thing you can do to an RPG. As soon as an RPG feels unproductive it is dead.
Keep in mind this about what is true in PRACTICE. You can argue all you want that people can still do stuff. That doesn't mean anything at all because that is not how people will judge productivity. An hour of solo will be compared to an hour of grouping consciously or unconsciously and people will view that hour of solo as a waste. And they should, even a complete moron understand that 10% efficiency sucks.
You're entitled to your opinion but I'm just saying I don't want to see yet another game like WoW released. Especially a PvE game. Soloing in a MMO is boring as watching paint dry (most of the time). If I wanted to exclusively solo I would play a single player console RPG thats certain to be way more entertaining.
Fine and you can play that game and love it.
But do not pretend it has valid or good solo play by 90% of people's definition. Because it won't. Doing so would be a sham.
Besides like I said in a previous post in this thread forced or tiered grouping based on roles like existed in EQ1 and exists in WoW makes grouping worse not better. I advocate the CoX style of doing grouping.
In the end I think your whole argument is moot since you offer the choice between poo and crap. So if you want to penalize people for going for crap more power to you. But don't pretend that the poo is still palatable. Niether is palatable to me, but clearly you are not advocating anything satisfying for the other side.
Giving people crumbs is not a good way to say you have created a desirable feature. And that is the only thing these games have to offer. Desireable features. You make it too unpleasant and well good luck.
I'm fine with forced grouping if we were all warrior priest mages, and could tank heal and dps at the same time, and when you logged in it auto places you into a group and teleports you to them.
I'll never play a game where i Have to log in and be DPS LFG, or LF1M tank/healer, or even worse LF2M tank/healer.
Just to play the game.
There simply is no fun being LFG, and it's even less fun having people leave in the middle of your group time.
Frankly us gamers have realized that we don't want to be punished for playing a game, and now that people are realizing mmos are just games, and not escapes from reality, that we don't need punishment.
The problem is theres a few people who still haven't "grown up" when it comes to games.
It depends how the game is made and how it all worked. I mean, what if nobody is online at the time, or if there is very few people who are your level. But it would be cool if they could make raids for lower levels too, because if the game is about grouping it could work. So would I play a game that does that? Possibly
One of the best things about CoX is that it really offers a different grouping experience versus solo play.
Grouping in CoX offers the following: 1) slightly better xp. Its not huge but its noticeable 2) Truly makes you "super" since most things stack in CoX 3) Different spawns.
I really think most MMOs would do well to look at 2 & 3 above to really make grouping more popular. The idea of being able to get some crazy buffs and take on 3 bosses at once while the rest of your group takes out the Archvillain whereas outside that group you might be able to tak 2 bosses at once and you would need to be careful.
See in an EQ style game you get in a group for negative reasons. Because roles need to be filled. In CoX you get a group for positive reasons, you get more interesting spawns and the the stacking and synergy actually makes you stronger than just the additive effect of more people.
A group of 5 priests on WoW can often be sucky because various roles won't be filled. A group of 5 defenders can be a group of tank mages because of synergy of buffs. A solo defender will often have crappy damage but 5 defender together may have similar damage to 5 blasters together. Due to this dynamic many people is CoX are often anxious to group or only group because it fun it makes you better. It is more than a requirement. Its not something you need to do to be efficient or whatever. You do it because you can turn your defender into a killing machine and that is fun and exciting.
Any game that is depending on forced grouping has basically given up on differentiating group play and making group play have a fun incentive. So instead they have opted for a ham fisted "role-based" requirement + carrots way. Which in the end has a rather depressing effect.
In EQ or WoW or LOTRO. The refrain is "We need a healer or we can't do it". For CoX its usually something more along the lines of "Sweet, speed boost, I am gonna tear some stuff up now" or "Sweet , fortitude, now I can flip out and kill stuff."
In EQ/WoW you need your tank and you need your healer but basically those two operate the same in or out of a group and basically those two corner stones of the EQ-style grouping experience basically make the DPS guys not die. The DPS basically operate exactly the same in or out of the group. They simply have to manage their aggro. In CoX you can operate completely different. You could go from squishy DPS to doing good and having good defense. You might be able to recycle powers far far faster, making you more survivable and doing more damage.
This is the critical difference that MMORPGs really need to explore to "fix" the solo versus group problems. Grouping really should be different. Not just some people forced togehter that mostly operate the same solo or in a group.
that sounds like a lot of fun, almost makes me want to give CoX another try--didn't really do any grouping that i can remember.
my first thought in regards to this title is "hell no, i'd never play a forced grouping game", after some thought i would consider playing a forced grouping game IF and only IF it was fun enough to ignore the downtime waiting for a group. but to be honest, even if it is fun enough, i'd still be quite ticked off at the developers for taking away my "choice" of being able to solo (and i would probably still try to solo, guess i'm stubborn).
personally i think any game that doesn't allow for players to be able to solo throughout the entire game, leveling and endgame (whether pvp, quests, solo instances, etc) is setting itself up for failure. there's just too many players that either enjoy soloing or their work schedule and normal life do not allow for excessive grouping--EVEN IF THEY ENJOY IT MORE THAN SOLOING. you take away soloing and say someone who seriously loves grouping but only has time because of their busy life to do some decent grouping once a week--they now have nothing else to do in the game throughout the rest of the week, they will find that they have less and less reasons to log on and pay a monthly sub. sure they've got 1 day a week where they've got a couple hours to devote to the game and grouping, but they'd find the other 3-4 days a week that they can get on for 30-45 min don't matter anymore.
and i've known tons of people like that, forced grouping also alienates the players that can only play non-peak hours, like my brother used to work a funky shift at his job, so he'd only be able to log on during "normal" hours once or twice a week--but every night he could get online for 2-3 hours, just it was from 2am to 5am.
I would not play a forced grouping game, If anything games need more player freedoms, more choices, not more limitations. I am a very social player, I like to group because I want to not because someone decided it for me. There are times i don;t want to talk to people sometimes I do, and when I group i want it to be with my friends and not because I have to to get farther in the game. Not all my friends play at the same time I do, so then I would have to schedule around other peoples schedules to play and i do not want to have to schedule anything in my game. I want to play when I want to and not have someone complaining i wasn't on for them to do something. This is not being anti social considering I was in a guild of about 600 members in a game that did not force grouping and had nothing you really had to group for. We grouped to battle other guilds and it was solely for fun and not necessity. I do not wish upon anyone to be stuck in a group of kids that just like to hear themselves talk and have nothing intelligent to say. It is better to allow players to do this on their own, on their own time and with players they actually enjoy being around instead of trying to force it down their throats.
Would I play a forced grouping game? Not a chance, not for free, not for an hour.
Do I hate grouping? No. Some of the most fun MMO experiences I ever had were in groups. But this is also true of the worst experiences.
If I had a bunch of online friends who all were into the game and played it tons, it would be great. However, at 45 and living in a remote area, this is simply not the case.
Here's what it comes down to: when I want to play, I want to play! I do not want to spend an hour or 30 minutes or even 10 minutes of my game time looking for others to group with. And then, the players I get grouped with are strangers who may or may not be skilled, friendly, interested in fair play, etc. In fact, I think it's utterly ridiculous that a game ever forces you to socialize. What am I? Four and in pre-school? It's a moronic concept IMO.
Let me take this a step further. No MMO should ever, not one time, force a single player to group to experience one iota of content. Every location in the game, every mob, every sweet item should be acquirable solo.
Now, before any progroupers go crazy, I'll add a few things. Make the game so that exp is quadrupled when grouping. Same goes for drop rates, coin, etc. Huuuuugely encourage grouping. But never, ever force it for anything.
Another thing I'd do is to take the onus off the player to find other players looking to help with a quest. Make it so that the player simply makes checkmarks on a common page showing what he wants to team for, and then make it so that other players with the same things checked are auto teamed once enough are. Include quit team options of course, but for crying out loud, let's get rid of "Level X warrior LFG for quest Y" spam.
Finally, some progroupers will say that if people are not forced to team, they won't. This is bull. First off, encourage it alot as I suggested above. Second, look at a game like D2. Tons of people grouped and it was never mandatory.
I guess i'm just a little old school when it comes to my MMOs. The games i've played have forced grouping in one way or another. I started out on DAoC which you could solo but grouping up made things much more efficient then doing them on your own. Same with RvR you want to have a group of people with you when you did that. Then I played FFXI this game you cannot get around grouping at all. To gain lvls you need to group to get the best kind of gear you need to group and to get most missions and quests done you need to group. It's a group based game teamwork was the core of everything done in that game. Then i played Lineage2 you could solo in that game early on but then later it got less and less efficient. When you were higher in lvl you had to watch your back when doing anything since that game is TRUE open PvP so you didn't want to be by yourself or you were done for.
I think what newer games are missing is this grouping factor but I guess that's what the masses want these days. They want things to come to easily and only group when it's convenient for them. If that's the case they shouldn't be called called Mass Multiplayer Role Playing Games they should be called Mass Singe Player Role Playing Games with a little bit of Multiplaye on the side. That's where I think games today are moving towards and if that's the case then I imagine my time playing MMOs is coming to an end very soon because once the games I am playing now truely become outdated and there is no devs working on them and I don't have anything else left to enjoy I don't think there will be anything left to switch to the way the market is going.
If your part of a good, active guild then you don't really need to group to interact with other people. I've leveled 8 characters in WoW to 70 and about 99% of the time I did it solo. I hate logging in and waiting around to get a group. If I can find one and it works then great. If not, oh well. I'm can be pretty chatty in our guild chat channel, which more than fulfills any desire to interact with other players. Some days I'll want to play for 6 or more hours (very rare) while other days I'll only want to play for a few minutes.
I pay my monthly fees just like anyone else, and I want the freedom to play how I want to play. I don't think anyone that supports solo play wants to force anyone to solo, so why force people to group? Sounds kind of hypocritical to me.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
As I'm sure many have already said (really don't know, didn't read all the posts), I do like to group...it's the point of playing online afterall. However, there are times when I don't have much time and just want to tool around a bit in game. There's also the jerk factor. Sometimes I'm not in the mood to put up with the random ass hole you inevitably come across in groups. Sometimes I'M the ass hole because I'm in a bad mood.
In my opinion, every game should offer an equal amount of solo and group content for all levels. Then there wouldn't be any complaints from anyone...well, at least about that subject. There will always be something people will complain about.
EDIT: Fixed a couple typos. I'm tired and have gone stupid.
Comments
No.
Grouping should never be forced because it restricts freedom. That is what MMORPGs are about, freedom. I am not saying grouping should not have benefits, but it should NEVER be forced upon people.
Now interdependencies is something I support, because selling a service (like crafting) is not the same as forced grouping. But forcing players to need to spend longer periods of online time together is a bad idea.
And socializing? You know what is about socializing mainly? Myspace and Facebook. I'm not saying you can't have socializing in MMORPGs, but I rather do it when I want to in a MMORPG, not be forced to socialize.
no
Simple fact that you can't find a good group all the time and say you're up at 3am and want to play, yet noone else is on so you have to solo.
Also I like 1 v 1 PVP because it tests out your skills.
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Talking about SWG much?
NO.
WoW could be a great grouping game if they set it up queues for dungeons the same way they did PVP battlegrounds.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
I voted NO cause I genuinly dislike handhold games and forced grouping is to me just another handhold feature.
I mean I don't need forced grouping cause I am able to creat or get invited into a group, to me grouping is also not about lvling or gaining extra stuff, to me grouping is because it CAN be FUN, sorry I am kinda a niche player and don't need a game to guide me into forced feature's.
I've have moods I enjoy solo, I have moods I want to have fun with some groups or go duo. And I can have a mood I want it all in my playsession meaning abit of solo play and some group/duo play.
I actively do play a game that forces grouping for most content. Everquest..
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Yes I would play another "forced grouping" MMO for a few reasons.
1. Soloing is only fun for awhile and usually ends up boring as hell.
2. Grouping gives you the best chance to make new friends and gives you the chance to learn something about a class that maybe you didn't know.
3. No 2 groups are ever the same. So you get to work with several class combinations and several different interesting people.
I enjoy grouping.
The social aspect of MMORPGs should be underestimated.
But I need more than just forced-grouping. I need:
Forced anything is bad. It is better to give people options.
Forced grouping is nothing but annoying. Why should I have to sit around for 3+ hours trying to find a decent group? That's why I decided to stop playing FFXI. I wouldn't want to earn exp 3x slower solo either. I already spend enough time playing mmo's. Only bosses and special group oriented content should require a group in my opinion.
Well that's not my experience of PUG-ing in CoX. (Bear in mind that most of my experience is EU-side in late evening play, it may be a bit different, say, at peak time on Freedom when it's full of kids come home from school, or tired workers who just want a quick, relaxing blast.)
Not only is CoX an MMO in which I, as a casual player, did not feel forced to group, yet (unlike every other MMO I've tried) hardly ever soloed, it's also, of the MMOs I've tried, the MMO in which there was the most in-game banter in groups.
The reason being, I think, because rp-ing in a fantasy settting requires some attention to one's language to be IC. Whereas to rp a superhero IC one can talk fairly normally. Hence, in groups I was in, it was tremendous fun - witty superheroish banter flying back and forth constantly.
Admittedly this was actually usually only in missions - for some reason people got a bit shy outside missions, and outside of missions it was more the "hardcore" rp-ers who would carry on rp-ing.
I reiterate my point: of all the MMOs I've tried since CoX, in every one of them I've soloed more than teamed. Yet in CoX, which had no artificial mechanisms to force me to solo (and in which, in fact, soloing was quite good fun too, due to interesting story arcs if you read all the "clues"), I just naturally teamed far more than I soloed - I didn't feel pressured into doing so, it was just such huge fun teaming that I wanted to team, wanted the buzz of playing with other human beings against the baddies.
This is all the more remarkable in that, when I started playing CoH, I was absolutely determined not to play with other people, because at that time I had a snobbish view that most people playing the game would be kids, and I'm ashamed to admit now that as an older adult I felt a bit guilty and embarrassed about playing in a superhero MMO. But as soon as I got the taste for it, I came to love teaming. It's been a matter of some disappointment to me to find that the grouping experience in every other MMO has failed to give me the same social gameplay buzz (I am of course speaking as a casual player - I understand it will be different for those committed to Guild-type organisations).
Asheron's call 2 had had very good party sytem and was always fun, doing quests or grind with group always very good xp in group in that game.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I think 90% of you all may be missing the point of this thread. It's not that we should making grouping forced per say but give MAJOR advantages for grouping over soloing. Like 5-10 times more experience and/or loot. And un-instanced dungeons to explore. Where you CAN explore solo but you won't see all the content without a good group.
This is pretty much the way old EverQuest was. There were classes that could solo to max level but grouping made things so much easier and you had a blast while doing it.
It is true that we don't need a game where we sit around for 2+ hours seeking a group. We need a game where we can solo for 2+ hours while seeking a group thats gonna put soloing to complete shame.
Actually I think you are the one missing something. If you make solo play essentially unproductive you are seriously neutering.
This is what happened in EQ and many people hated it.
What you are missing is that people want to log on and make progress. Real progress. Solo or in a group 5-10 times is so punitive that in comparison people will not feel like what they are doing is productive and that will be the kiss of death to any RPG based game.
Rob Pardo understood this about EQ1 back when he used to play it and he purposely designed WoW with this in mind.
I understood this about EQ1 from taking a look at its design and my previous experience in MUDs. That is why I avoided EQ1 like the plague.
What you are proposing is forcing a group players and a style of play that is unproductive. This is possibly the worst thing you can do to an RPG. As soon as an RPG feels unproductive it is dead.
Keep in mind this about what is true in PRACTICE. You can argue all you want that people can still do stuff. That doesn't mean anything at all because that is not how people will judge productivity. An hour of solo will be compared to an hour of grouping consciously or unconsciously and people will view that hour of solo as a waste. And they should, even a complete moron understand that 10% efficiency sucks.
History repeats itself anybody remember the 80s.
Would you play a forced grouping game? no
Actually I think you are the one missing something. If you make solo play essentially unproductive you are seriously neutering.
This is what happened in EQ and many people hated it.
What you are missing is that people want to log on and make progress. Real progress. Solo or in a group 5-10 times is so punitive that in comparison people will not feel like what they are doing is productive and that will be the kiss of death to any RPG based game.
Rob Pardo understood this about EQ1 back when he used to play it and he purposely designed WoW with this in mind.
I understood this about EQ1 from taking a look at its design and my previous experience in MUDs. That is why I avoided EQ1 like the plague.
What you are proposing is forcing a group players and a style of play that is unproductive. This is possibly the worst thing you can do to an RPG. As soon as an RPG feels unproductive it is dead.
Keep in mind this about what is true in PRACTICE. You can argue all you want that people can still do stuff. That doesn't mean anything at all because that is not how people will judge productivity. An hour of solo will be compared to an hour of grouping consciously or unconsciously and people will view that hour of solo as a waste. And they should, even a complete moron understand that 10% efficiency sucks.
You're entitled to your opinion but I'm just saying I don't want to see yet another game like WoW released. Especially a PvE game. Soloing in a MMO is boring as watching paint dry (most of the time). If I wanted to exclusively solo I would play a single player console RPG thats certain to be way more entertaining.
Actually I think you are the one missing something. If you make solo play essentially unproductive you are seriously neutering.
This is what happened in EQ and many people hated it.
What you are missing is that people want to log on and make progress. Real progress. Solo or in a group 5-10 times is so punitive that in comparison people will not feel like what they are doing is productive and that will be the kiss of death to any RPG based game.
Rob Pardo understood this about EQ1 back when he used to play it and he purposely designed WoW with this in mind.
I understood this about EQ1 from taking a look at its design and my previous experience in MUDs. That is why I avoided EQ1 like the plague.
What you are proposing is forcing a group players and a style of play that is unproductive. This is possibly the worst thing you can do to an RPG. As soon as an RPG feels unproductive it is dead.
Keep in mind this about what is true in PRACTICE. You can argue all you want that people can still do stuff. That doesn't mean anything at all because that is not how people will judge productivity. An hour of solo will be compared to an hour of grouping consciously or unconsciously and people will view that hour of solo as a waste. And they should, even a complete moron understand that 10% efficiency sucks.
You're entitled to your opinion but I'm just saying I don't want to see yet another game like WoW released. Especially a PvE game. Soloing in a MMO is boring as watching paint dry (most of the time). If I wanted to exclusively solo I would play a single player console RPG thats certain to be way more entertaining.
Fine and you can play that game and love it.
But do not pretend it has valid or good solo play by 90% of people's definition. Because it won't. Doing so would be a sham.
Besides like I said in a previous post in this thread forced or tiered grouping based on roles like existed in EQ1 and exists in WoW makes grouping worse not better. I advocate the CoX style of doing grouping.
In the end I think your whole argument is moot since you offer the choice between poo and crap. So if you want to penalize people for going for crap more power to you. But don't pretend that the poo is still palatable. Niether is palatable to me, but clearly you are not advocating anything satisfying for the other side.
Giving people crumbs is not a good way to say you have created a desirable feature. And that is the only thing these games have to offer. Desireable features. You make it too unpleasant and well good luck.
I'm fine with forced grouping if we were all warrior priest mages, and could tank heal and dps at the same time, and when you logged in it auto places you into a group and teleports you to them.
I'll never play a game where i Have to log in and be DPS LFG, or LF1M tank/healer, or even worse LF2M tank/healer.
Just to play the game.
There simply is no fun being LFG, and it's even less fun having people leave in the middle of your group time.
Frankly us gamers have realized that we don't want to be punished for playing a game, and now that people are realizing mmos are just games, and not escapes from reality, that we don't need punishment.
The problem is theres a few people who still haven't "grown up" when it comes to games.
It depends how the game is made and how it all worked. I mean, what if nobody is online at the time, or if there is very few people who are your level. But it would be cool if they could make raids for lower levels too, because if the game is about grouping it could work. So would I play a game that does that? Possibly
points out the topic title ...
Why not.... since one of the feature of an online game is to allow us to interact with other people
anyway it really depends on a certain factor of the game...
that sounds like a lot of fun, almost makes me want to give CoX another try--didn't really do any grouping that i can remember.
my first thought in regards to this title is "hell no, i'd never play a forced grouping game", after some thought i would consider playing a forced grouping game IF and only IF it was fun enough to ignore the downtime waiting for a group. but to be honest, even if it is fun enough, i'd still be quite ticked off at the developers for taking away my "choice" of being able to solo (and i would probably still try to solo, guess i'm stubborn).
personally i think any game that doesn't allow for players to be able to solo throughout the entire game, leveling and endgame (whether pvp, quests, solo instances, etc) is setting itself up for failure. there's just too many players that either enjoy soloing or their work schedule and normal life do not allow for excessive grouping--EVEN IF THEY ENJOY IT MORE THAN SOLOING. you take away soloing and say someone who seriously loves grouping but only has time because of their busy life to do some decent grouping once a week--they now have nothing else to do in the game throughout the rest of the week, they will find that they have less and less reasons to log on and pay a monthly sub. sure they've got 1 day a week where they've got a couple hours to devote to the game and grouping, but they'd find the other 3-4 days a week that they can get on for 30-45 min don't matter anymore.
and i've known tons of people like that, forced grouping also alienates the players that can only play non-peak hours, like my brother used to work a funky shift at his job, so he'd only be able to log on during "normal" hours once or twice a week--but every night he could get online for 2-3 hours, just it was from 2am to 5am.
I would not play a forced grouping game, If anything games need more player freedoms, more choices, not more limitations. I am a very social player, I like to group because I want to not because someone decided it for me. There are times i don;t want to talk to people sometimes I do, and when I group i want it to be with my friends and not because I have to to get farther in the game. Not all my friends play at the same time I do, so then I would have to schedule around other peoples schedules to play and i do not want to have to schedule anything in my game. I want to play when I want to and not have someone complaining i wasn't on for them to do something. This is not being anti social considering I was in a guild of about 600 members in a game that did not force grouping and had nothing you really had to group for. We grouped to battle other guilds and it was solely for fun and not necessity. I do not wish upon anyone to be stuck in a group of kids that just like to hear themselves talk and have nothing intelligent to say. It is better to allow players to do this on their own, on their own time and with players they actually enjoy being around instead of trying to force it down their throats.
in a heartbeat.
Im sick of playing MMOs solo.
Also if a group orientated game came out, they need to make it worth it to group(xp,mobs,loot)
Does anyone know how to make a mmoRPG anymore?
Would I play a forced grouping game? Not a chance, not for free, not for an hour.
Do I hate grouping? No. Some of the most fun MMO experiences I ever had were in groups. But this is also true of the worst experiences.
If I had a bunch of online friends who all were into the game and played it tons, it would be great. However, at 45 and living in a remote area, this is simply not the case.
Here's what it comes down to: when I want to play, I want to play! I do not want to spend an hour or 30 minutes or even 10 minutes of my game time looking for others to group with. And then, the players I get grouped with are strangers who may or may not be skilled, friendly, interested in fair play, etc. In fact, I think it's utterly ridiculous that a game ever forces you to socialize. What am I? Four and in pre-school? It's a moronic concept IMO.
Let me take this a step further. No MMO should ever, not one time, force a single player to group to experience one iota of content. Every location in the game, every mob, every sweet item should be acquirable solo.
Now, before any progroupers go crazy, I'll add a few things. Make the game so that exp is quadrupled when grouping. Same goes for drop rates, coin, etc. Huuuuugely encourage grouping. But never, ever force it for anything.
Another thing I'd do is to take the onus off the player to find other players looking to help with a quest. Make it so that the player simply makes checkmarks on a common page showing what he wants to team for, and then make it so that other players with the same things checked are auto teamed once enough are. Include quit team options of course, but for crying out loud, let's get rid of "Level X warrior LFG for quest Y" spam.
Finally, some progroupers will say that if people are not forced to team, they won't. This is bull. First off, encourage it alot as I suggested above. Second, look at a game like D2. Tons of people grouped and it was never mandatory.
I guess i'm just a little old school when it comes to my MMOs. The games i've played have forced grouping in one way or another. I started out on DAoC which you could solo but grouping up made things much more efficient then doing them on your own. Same with RvR you want to have a group of people with you when you did that. Then I played FFXI this game you cannot get around grouping at all. To gain lvls you need to group to get the best kind of gear you need to group and to get most missions and quests done you need to group. It's a group based game teamwork was the core of everything done in that game. Then i played Lineage2 you could solo in that game early on but then later it got less and less efficient. When you were higher in lvl you had to watch your back when doing anything since that game is TRUE open PvP so you didn't want to be by yourself or you were done for.
I think what newer games are missing is this grouping factor but I guess that's what the masses want these days. They want things to come to easily and only group when it's convenient for them. If that's the case they shouldn't be called called Mass Multiplayer Role Playing Games they should be called Mass Singe Player Role Playing Games with a little bit of Multiplaye on the side. That's where I think games today are moving towards and if that's the case then I imagine my time playing MMOs is coming to an end very soon because once the games I am playing now truely become outdated and there is no devs working on them and I don't have anything else left to enjoy I don't think there will be anything left to switch to the way the market is going.
If your part of a good, active guild then you don't really need to group to interact with other people. I've leveled 8 characters in WoW to 70 and about 99% of the time I did it solo. I hate logging in and waiting around to get a group. If I can find one and it works then great. If not, oh well. I'm can be pretty chatty in our guild chat channel, which more than fulfills any desire to interact with other players. Some days I'll want to play for 6 or more hours (very rare) while other days I'll only want to play for a few minutes.
I pay my monthly fees just like anyone else, and I want the freedom to play how I want to play. I don't think anyone that supports solo play wants to force anyone to solo, so why force people to group? Sounds kind of hypocritical to me.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Would I play a forced grouping game? HELL NO!!!
As I'm sure many have already said (really don't know, didn't read all the posts), I do like to group...it's the point of playing online afterall. However, there are times when I don't have much time and just want to tool around a bit in game. There's also the jerk factor. Sometimes I'm not in the mood to put up with the random ass hole you inevitably come across in groups. Sometimes I'M the ass hole because I'm in a bad mood.
In my opinion, every game should offer an equal amount of solo and group content for all levels. Then there wouldn't be any complaints from anyone...well, at least about that subject. There will always be something people will complain about.
EDIT: Fixed a couple typos. I'm tired and have gone stupid.