Warcraft the most successfull MMO to date. I am writing this post to highlight issues that will lead to other MMO's push for dominance in this market The Blizzard boys have been very adaptive in their approach to try to keep their subscrbers in face of challenging competition from Lotro, Eve, and the upcoming WAR, to name a few. In each release of new content (however limited) they have changed the speed in the time it takes to level a toon from 1-70. The experience gained is increased from completing quests in lower levels. They have tried to adapt a pvp environment in Warcraft too, with some success. PVP has many limitations, but they are trying to improve it somewhat. With WOTLK new talents are opened up to certain disadvantaged classes to address balancing issues from a pvp perspective. Before TBC came out, there were 40 man raids in Azeroth like Naxrammas, which was challening to organise and fun to do. Since TBC, the raid composition has been lowered to 25 man raids to reach Black Temple and Sunwell. With WOTLK, the raid compositoin will be lowered to 10 mans as well as maintaing the usual 25 man raids, to allow more players to reach end game content and experience it. 10 man raids can be pugged, not requiring a full guild run to do. This may kind of defeat the purpose of requiring a guild membership to reach these instances. These changes in raid composition will continue to simplify the game and lead to its eventual decline. All MMO's are about building up a character with dedication and hard work to be the most well geared it can be. Simplyfing the game to adapt will make the game dull. In Wotlk they are implementing more titals as they see this as what players like. Many of these titals will be achieved with ease. There is no challenge to it. Wow's subsriber base will only have growth options now in Asia and Latin America it seems, as many in the western countries are tired and are looking for other MMO's with better content and that provide a new focus and challenge. PVP'ers in WOW are certainly tired of its lack of any new content besides 1 extra BG in WOLTK. Wow is facing the same problems an aging man has, trying to make himself look young , and fresh to impress the girls another year or 2. This can only go on for so long. With War coming, the ability to take over enemy capital cities is challenging and appealing. The fact that once an enemy captial falls, the inhabitants are placed in a refugee camp outside to liase with their factions NPC's whilst they try to ratake their capital again. This is truly amazing, refugee camps.!!! Perhaps the most unique thing War has to offer as truly innovative is its Tome of knowledge which will have absolutly everything in it. It will even have a record (as i understand it) of the actual names of enemy players who you have killed or that have killed you, and how many times they have done this. There is much more that can be added on this topic, but let me say that Blizzard have really opened up the MMO market with Warcraft and attracted so many players that otherwsie may have not played MMO's. Now sitting on all that revenue, they know that Warcraft can only grow so much, and they are planning for the future with a new and fresh MMO. What that will be,, we will need to wait. As to Wars success,, there is no doubt about it. It will be successfull. There is a lot of hype about it, but that is understanable when you consider how many people are eagerly looking and hoping for a fresh new MMO that caters to their needs, and not the same old dull simplified old one with limited additions added from time to time. Damn, I did write a lot after all....lol
1) Making things more accessible (ie: raids from 40 to 25 to 10) does not equal making things easier. It is widely recognized that the most popular raids in TBS are Karhazan and Zul Aman, 10 persons raids.
I do not know if WoTLK raids will be easier or harder than TBC, the DEVS said it will run the whole spectrum, from easy at start and then a progression in difficulty to who knows where. Look at WAR. WAR HAS NO RAIDS, does it means it is gonna be an "easy" game? from your logic, it sounds like it.
2)Kaharzan, again, a 10 men instance has described in many ways but "dull" is not one of them as it is full of interesting encounters. Of course after running it several times, everything becomes dull. As for needing a guild for 10 people content, you do not necessarily need one, but a 10 people pug has double the problems of a 5 people pug, meaning a guild group will do way better. In addition, needing only 10 people means also small/medium sized guilds can make full guild parties for those instances without making Raid communities.
3)WoW subscriber base has been growing all this time in the western world as well, as the game being in the top ten NA charts since release to today kinda prove. I am not sure if this will change in the future or not, and neither are you, I am sure.
4)1 extra BG in WotLK. I suppose you kinda missed the new full pvp region, the pvp air combat and the pvp rideable siege engines I guess, all things WAR does not have (well, beside the region).
5) WAR is a very promising game as well, but Hype means nothing as we all have seen in the case of AoC, you also need a solid product under it. Now WAR seems to have it, so there is more hope even if the spectre of EA, cuts and other things still loom. WoTLK looked kinda plain... until they started to reveal things from it and as usual, Blizzard will do it again, a expansion that seems nothing and then it will just blow all of us away.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Listen i know you will buy wrath of the lich king like the rest of us WOW subscribers anyway? how will it decline? I dont have to guess, I know you will purchase it.
75% percent of us will not touch that expansion
and im not coming up with this percentage to sound smart
Our university here, 90% of students gamers have pre ordered wrath of the lich king. What does amazon have to prove? We're ready to buy wrath of the lich king expansion here nearby ebgames stores. Wrath of the lich king is already mega sellers here. Your an idiot.
Yes thatsd right my university campus is going to line up for the release of lich king expansion , imagine the colleges across the country. Yes its that BIG.
Funny, 123 provides a link to backup what he says, you spout loads of crap with no proof to back up your statement. Who is the idiot? What university do you go to? "I'mawowfanboiU"? Sorry guy but you cant come here, spout off a bunch of fanboyish crap, not post links to back up your claims and expect to be taken seriously.
That said, WOTLK will do well. At least till people realise its the same garbage over and over again. Although if people havent seen that by now they may not ever see it.
WoW's decline is innevitable, look at all the previous leaders, its just a matter of time.
I am HOPING warhammer doesn't fail like AoC because ive spent alot of time on this game and pre-ordered it already. At this point you cant tell, closed beta is not the actual game yet.
I would not call one single area a fix to there open world PvP issues. Even on PvE servers its going to be that one focal point and it will be popular for a while then back off. Look at Halaa. Only reason it ever changes hands is someone wants the daily.
Halaa was ill placed imo. Once you outlevelled Nagrand there were very few reasons to actually do anything with Halaa. That was mostly the problem with it.
The new zone is top level I think which should help a lot and owning it means you get extra stuff from the dungeons you do *across the world* which hopefully also adds to keeping it active.
It's no Daoc or WAR but it's a step in the right direction at least
I never understand why everyone goes crazy over pre-orders or account numbers, why cant you be happy with a consistant community? large or small, when you have friends you have fun.
Statistics in mmorpgs posts are a bunch of bull**** for wannabe bureaucrats.
Everybody will agree about WOW declining sooner or later. But the reasons you gave are completely wrong, in my oppinion. I mean, they are more likely reasons for WOW's succes. Ten and 25 man raids are extremely popular, they are great for smaller guilds.
Halaa was ill placed imo. Once you outlevelled Nagrand there were very few reasons to actually do anything with Halaa. That was mostly the problem with it.
The new zone is top level I think which should help a lot and owning it means you get extra stuff from the dungeons you do *across the world* which hopefully also adds to keeping it active.
It's no Daoc or WAR but it's a step in the right direction at least
Good point. I didnt know it added to loot across the world. In WoW thats going to be major. The only problem they will run into is population imballances. They have shown so far they are incapable of fixing thoes issues.
Frankly I hate WoW, but I dont need to see if die like so many others. So long as WAR delivers what its saying, and it has a solid enough community to keep the servers going and fun, thats all I really care about. Whoever is having fun in WoW is not going to effect me having fun in another game, regardless of what it is.
Listen i know you will buy wrath of the lich king like the rest of us WOW subscribers anyway? how will it decline? I dont have to guess, I know you will purchase it.
75% percent of us will not touch that expansion
and im not coming up with this percentage to sound smart
Our university here, 90% of students gamers have pre ordered wrath of the lich king. What does amazon have to prove? We're ready to buy wrath of the lich king expansion here nearby ebgames stores. Wrath of the lich king is already mega sellers here. Your an idiot.
Yes thatsd right my university campus is going to line up for the release of lich king expansion , imagine the colleges across the country. Yes its that BIG.
Funny, 123 provides a link to backup what he says, you spout loads of crap with no proof to back up your statement. Who is the idiot? What university do you go to? "I'mawowfanboiU"? Sorry guy but you cant come here, spout off a bunch of fanboyish crap, not post links to back up your claims and expect to be taken seriously.
That said, WOTLK will do well. At least till people realise its the same garbage over and over again. Although if people havent seen that by now they may not ever see it.
I already countered this: here are the actual FACTS !!!!!!!!!!!
look at the actual preorders of WotLK and Warhammer now .
For US amazon
Wotlk is at position 7, Warhammer is at position ....180
So it is quite clear. WotLK pre orders dwarf War pre orders by a very wide margin.
The only thing was (up until two weeks ago) was that the US CE edition of War promised open Beta and this effect has now faded out as these places are gone (just look at the normal boxes of war). WotLK need no open access to lure in customers.
So the guy at the university is RIGHT and you are plainly wrong - WITH the stats of Amazon as proof !
Oh, I'm sorry I'm wrong. Thoes links CLEARLY state that over 90% of HIS university is preordering WOTLK.
Why wont you go away Vick. You only see what you want to and never add anything half way inteligent to the conversation. Of course WoW's pre-orders are going to be higher than WAR. I'm not arguing that. My point is you cant come here making blanket statements like "Over 90% of my university is pre-ordering WOTLK" and be taken seriously. First, they dont even know 90% of there university. The most popular person doesnt know 90% of the university unless its student size is a few hundred tops.
Secondly I know for a fact over 90% of his university doesnt even play WoW. <---see how stupid that looks? How could I POSSIBLY know how many people at his university plays WoW? In the same respect, how could he POSSIBLY know over 90% is pre-ordering WOLK. Unless he personally polled every single person he couldnt. Try again Vick, you are plainly wrong in refuting what I posted.
You know, I still have to say....if they came out with something as unoriginal as let's say....."World of Starcraft" or something of the sort....I wouldn't hesitate to try it out. Playing as a zealot or hydralisk doesn't sound half bad really .
Oh, I'm sorry I'm wrong. Thoes links CLEARLY state that over 90% of HIS university is preordering WOTLK. Why wont you go away Vick. You only see what you want to and never add anything half way inteligent to the conversation. Of course WoW's pre-orders are going to be higher than WAR. I'm not arguing that. My point is you cant come here making blanket statements like "Over 90% of my university is pre-ordering WOTLK" and be taken seriously. First, they dont even know 90% of there university. The most popular person doesnt know 90% of the university unless its student size is a few hundred tops. Secondly I know for a fact over 90% of his university doesnt even play WoW. <---see how stupid that looks? How could I POSSIBLY know how many people at his university plays WoW? In the same respect, how could he POSSIBLY know over 90% is pre-ordering WOLK. Unless he personally polled every single person he couldnt. Try again Vick, you are plainly wrong in refuting what I posted.
Yep, but I showed you the real stats of pre-orders. And it shows that a lot of XXXX is being written about WOW and WotLK without any foundation. The only motivation is hate and I can' except that.
And I don't go away in a thread about Wow's decline if this is simply not based on facts.
The moment I arrived here in MMORPG.COM I couldn't believe my eyes the hate treatment World of Warcraft receives.
The only thing these politics end result is ... that MORE mediocre MMORPG's are published with MORE frustrated people trying them with MORE players abandoning the genre.
Warhammer is the Xth MMORPG in a row that is a "Wow"killer and the only things we achieved is the one burial after another for the past 3 years.
No doubt tx to websites like MMORPG.COM and its fundamental hate against the number PC1 game played for 3 years now.
I don't see why any Warhammer Online player wants WoW to loose its subs. If you remember the shit WoW community, you would want 80% of WoW players to stay where they are.
Warhammer Online Crnobog, The Black God Chaos Chosen <Guildless>
Oh, I'm sorry I'm wrong. Thoes links CLEARLY state that over 90% of HIS university is preordering WOTLK. Why wont you go away Vick. You only see what you want to and never add anything half way inteligent to the conversation. Of course WoW's pre-orders are going to be higher than WAR. I'm not arguing that. My point is you cant come here making blanket statements like "Over 90% of my university is pre-ordering WOTLK" and be taken seriously. First, they dont even know 90% of there university. The most popular person doesnt know 90% of the university unless its student size is a few hundred tops. Secondly I know for a fact over 90% of his university doesnt even play WoW. <---see how stupid that looks? How could I POSSIBLY know how many people at his university plays WoW? In the same respect, how could he POSSIBLY know over 90% is pre-ordering WOLK. Unless he personally polled every single person he couldnt. Try again Vick, you are plainly wrong in refuting what I posted.
Yep, but I showed you the real stats of pre-orders. And it shows that a lot of XXXX is being written about WOW and WotLK without any foundation. The only motivation is hate and I can' except that.
And I don't go away in a thread about Wow's decline if this is simply not based on facts.
The moment I arrived here in MMORPG.COM I couldn't believe my eyes the hate treatment World of Warcraft receives.
The only thing these politics end result is ... that MORE mediocre MMORPG's are published with MORE frustrated people trying them with MORE players abandoning the genre.
Warhammer is the Xth MMORPG in a row that is a "Wow"killer and the only things we achieved is the one burial after another for the past 3 years.
No doubt tx to websites like MMORPG.COM and its fundamental hate against the number PC1 game played for 3 years now.
Neither I nor the OP claimed WAR was going to kill WoW. I have never claimed WAR will dethrone WoW. The OP gave his opinions on why WoW will eventually fall and most of us here agree with it. As a matter of fact, most of the WAR fan's here dont think it will dethrone WoW nor do we want it to. Again, you only see what you want, or dont fully read before jumping the gun. On the other hand, you take every chance to trash WAR and say things that simply arent facts. If you want proof, look at the other thread where you try to say PQ's are the only end game PvE WAR has. Thats simply untrue and you are doing the same thing you claim you are trying to protect WoW from.
Also, if you think Dev's are releasing half finished, buggy games because of places like MMORPG.com and there members your completely wrong. They release thoes POS games because people still buy them. Could the same thing happen with WAR? Its possible. Not likely, but possible.
Please, also name me ONE MMORPG that WoW burried. Vanguard is still going. EQ2 is still going. LOTRO is still going. AoC is still going and even with its many faults, will still keep going (see vanguard). No, none of these games are doing as well as WoW, but WoW definitly hasnt killed a single MMO that has released.
Your a typical WoW fanboi who feels the need to trash any new game comming out. Stop trying to *prove* everything said about WoW is false when in fact, you state false things about other games. No matter how many links you post trying to "prove" WoW is the greatest thing since sliced bread you will not change the opinion of anyone who doesnt like WoW be it here at MMORPG.com or anywhere else for that matter.
Edit: Also wanted to point out if you read my reply to Pheace, I clearly state I do hate WoW, but I do NOT want to see it die. As much as I dislike WoW, it did do something good for the genra...it brought in tons of players who wouldnt have given MMO's a second look.
Edit: Also wanted to point out if you read my reply to Pheace, I clearly state I do hate WoW, but I do NOT want to see it die. As much as I dislike WoW, it did do something good for the genra...it brought in tons of players who wouldnt have given MMO's a second look.
People that hate games .... should first see a Doctor. Help could be needed here.
I never even said Warhammer sucked. I point out the 4 things they should change in WAR, but if the fan boys don't wanna listen and just can't read, well I am only here to rectify the "hype".
For those not reading or listening: to sum it up :
it's lack of hi end grouped PVE content, RvR only has a limited replay value (see Conan), the balance of way too much classes and development of them and the very bad PvP fights shown on the web (a PvP game based on stiff and slow animations with floating moonwalked characters is just not a good base to gather long term PvP interest).
But I will never say "I hate this or that game", never even said it won't be a succes, but I do say Mythic let a chance slip by. You can't win over gamers to a lesser product.
Np: proof will be there in Jan 09.
And BTW: games that DO have less than 100K subs die. 1.2 million dollars each month is way to small to cover the costs, let alone reprogram new content in a meaningful way. They sit there, right, on a GY and nobody is going to rez them. (VG, TR, D&DO, Pirates, Hellgate,...) the others have 200K subs or less, hardly making money to justify big investments.
Edit: You can call me a fan of Wow: at least I played that game for years, YOU are promoting a game it isn't even published yet. How do you call such a person ???
Many people who pre-order WoTLK never even heard of WAR. Trust me, WoW has enough sheeple (sheep people) to keep them going for a long time. All they need to do is promise alot, and since they bring in millions a month they can keep those promises. So don't worry Vicks, Northrend won't be a ghost town because of WAR so don't feel threatened by it (we all know you do on the inside. Go ahead and deny it. Otherwise you wouldn't be here so much.) WAR will, however, be its own success.
Predicting at least 400K subs AFTER the first month. If Mythic has a smooth launch with a complete game, it could be even more.
EDIT: OP, those reasons are why so many people are anticipating WoTLK. They want to be able to raid, not have elite nerds tell them they suck too much to go on that 25-man. Again, that's copying WAR. WAR offers everyone access to everything, whereas WoW hasn't - they're trying to do that now. Smart move, and one that might take some customers away from WAR just because they have friends in WoW or they're comfortable in cartoony, bunny hopping Azeroth.
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
I am even predicting 600K in its fist month and 800K in its second. )
My WAR CE was ordered 3 months ago, so np there.
People have to just stop lying about WOW though.
Even double these WAR figures could have been reached if the points were rectified.
The way I am playing Wow doesn't matter, even at 1/4 the subs I wouldn't even notice (family guild with 20+ members) and doing PvP about 80% of the time.
I am even predicting 600K in its fist month and 800K in its second. ) My WAR CE was ordered 3 months ago, so np there. People have to just stop lying about WOW though. Even double these WAR figures could have been reached if the points were rectified. The way I am playing Wow doesn't matter, even at 1/4 the subs I wouldn't even notice (family guild with 20+ members) and doing PvP about 80% of the time. So no type casting here )))
Well good! Now you won't be seen as a WoW fanboi. Some of us WAR boys might call WoW crap, we might hate it, etc. But that's not everyone. I, at least, acknowledge that WoW is a good gateway MMO and that it's a solid, finished product, until you're a veteran and you start realizing the futility and the pointlessness of some of the grinding and raiding and such that it forces you to do. If you still like WoW (you couldn't have been playing for more than 2 years if that's the case...otherwise you're very tolerant) then that's great. I've said if WoTLK doesn't turn out to be gnome Death Knights and boxed in open-world PvP, I'll try it.
But turning WoW into WWII is a bit rediculous, it sounds great on paper but I mean what the hell? Go play a FPS if you want that, you can kill alot faster. Adding more air + sea means of transportation = more little kids flying or sailing away when they're losing going "neener neener nubcake I is teh 1337".
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
I am even predicting 600K in its fist month and 800K in its second. ) My WAR CE was ordered 3 months ago, so np there. People have to just stop lying about WOW though. Even double these WAR figures could have been reached if the points were rectified. The way I am playing Wow doesn't matter, even at 1/4 the subs I wouldn't even notice (family guild with 20+ members) and doing PvP about 80% of the time. So no type casting here )))
Well good! Now you won't be seen as a WoW fanboi. Some of us WAR boys might call WoW crap, we might hate it, etc. But that's not everyone. I, at least, acknowledge that WoW is a good gateway MMO and that it's a solid, finished product, until you're a veteran and you start realizing the futility and the pointlessness of some of the grinding and raiding and such that it forces you to do. If you still like WoW (you couldn't have been playing for more than 2 years if that's the case...otherwise you're very tolerant) then that's great. I've said if WoTLK doesn't turn out to be gnome Death Knights and boxed in open-world PvP, I'll try it.
But turning WoW into WWII is a bit rediculous, it sounds great on paper but I mean what the hell? Go play a FPS if you want that, you can kill alot faster. Adding more air + sea means of transportation = more little kids flying or sailing away when they're losing going "neener neener nubcake I is teh 1337".
Well that's the strange thing and it also what I LIKE about it ... these things were already in it years ago and they make now use of them.
The siege weaponry of WC3, the launched airplanes in Ironforge, the Zeppelins, all thing already IN the game for years and now that they are being used in some real world Pvp combat, it is suddenly WW2....
Everyone should be excited about these,... not frustrated.
I know Warhammer lore better than most on these forums here. My army of Teutogen Guards has seen more battles than most would even dream of. The Middenland Armies were perfect... until GW scrapped them all. As an Empire warlord I disgusted the Sigmar fellow. WE were the order of Ulric. Scrapped. Gone from all official books.... ))
I am even predicting 600K in its fist month and 800K in its second. ) My WAR CE was ordered 3 months ago, so np there. People have to just stop lying about WOW though. Even double these WAR figures could have been reached if the points were rectified. The way I am playing Wow doesn't matter, even at 1/4 the subs I wouldn't even notice (family guild with 20+ members) and doing PvP about 80% of the time. So no type casting here )))
Well good! Now you won't be seen as a WoW fanboi. Some of us WAR boys might call WoW crap, we might hate it, etc. But that's not everyone. I, at least, acknowledge that WoW is a good gateway MMO and that it's a solid, finished product, until you're a veteran and you start realizing the futility and the pointlessness of some of the grinding and raiding and such that it forces you to do. If you still like WoW (you couldn't have been playing for more than 2 years if that's the case...otherwise you're very tolerant) then that's great. I've said if WoTLK doesn't turn out to be gnome Death Knights and boxed in open-world PvP, I'll try it.
But turning WoW into WWII is a bit rediculous, it sounds great on paper but I mean what the hell? Go play a FPS if you want that, you can kill alot faster. Adding more air + sea means of transportation = more little kids flying or sailing away when they're losing going "neener neener nubcake I is teh 1337".
Well that's the strange thing and it also what I LIKE about it ... these things were already in it years ago and they make now use of them.
The siege weaponry of WC3, the launched airplanes in Ironforge, the Zeppelins, all thing already IN the game for years and now that they are being used in some real world Pvp combat, it is suddenly WW2....
Everyone should be excited about these,... not frustrated.
I know Warhammer lore better than most on these forums here. My army of Teutogen Guards has seen more battles than most would even dream of. The Middenland Armies were perfect... until GW scrapped them all. As an Empire warlord I disgusted the Sigmar fellow. WE were the order of Ulric. Scrapped. Gone from all official books.... ))
That's one thing I'll give WoW - it seems like they put things in the world to make you wonder "is that just for decoration or..."
Not just the siege weapons, but my friend told me yesterday that in the northern part of Stormwind they have explosives set up just north of one of the bridges. He said that they were blowing up the wall when WoTLK comes out, and there will be a road there connecting Stormwind to Stormwind Harbor. That's kind of cool, it's not like overnight here comes all these changes because it's an expansion pack.
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
?rust me, WoW has enough sheeple (sheep people) to keep them going for a long time.
And beleive me no one player want the sheeple ( its great! ) in their game. I really hope WoW continue to be such suck(cess) and all of them stay there.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
Why WoW will decline and other games outperform it?
Because that's how it usually goes, everything has it's time and all that and thank god for that, wouldn't wanna be stuck with WoW for the rest of my mmo gaming time.
I don't see why any Warhammer Online player wants WoW to loose its subs. If you remember the shit WoW community, you would want 80% of WoW players to stay where they are.
Not particularly looking forward to Warhammer, but I gotta agree...I wouldn't wish WoW's community to move any other MMO, not even Vanguard, that's how much I hate it lol.
Comments
1) Making things more accessible (ie: raids from 40 to 25 to 10) does not equal making things easier. It is widely recognized that the most popular raids in TBS are Karhazan and Zul Aman, 10 persons raids.
I do not know if WoTLK raids will be easier or harder than TBC, the DEVS said it will run the whole spectrum, from easy at start and then a progression in difficulty to who knows where. Look at WAR. WAR HAS NO RAIDS, does it means it is gonna be an "easy" game? from your logic, it sounds like it.
2)Kaharzan, again, a 10 men instance has described in many ways but "dull" is not one of them as it is full of interesting encounters. Of course after running it several times, everything becomes dull. As for needing a guild for 10 people content, you do not necessarily need one, but a 10 people pug has double the problems of a 5 people pug, meaning a guild group will do way better. In addition, needing only 10 people means also small/medium sized guilds can make full guild parties for those instances without making Raid communities.
3)WoW subscriber base has been growing all this time in the western world as well, as the game being in the top ten NA charts since release to today kinda prove. I am not sure if this will change in the future or not, and neither are you, I am sure.
4)1 extra BG in WotLK. I suppose you kinda missed the new full pvp region, the pvp air combat and the pvp rideable siege engines I guess, all things WAR does not have (well, beside the region).
5) WAR is a very promising game as well, but Hype means nothing as we all have seen in the case of AoC, you also need a solid product under it. Now WAR seems to have it, so there is more hope even if the spectre of EA, cuts and other things still loom. WoTLK looked kinda plain... until they started to reveal things from it and as usual, Blizzard will do it again, a expansion that seems nothing and then it will just blow all of us away.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
75% percent of us will not touch that expansion
and im not coming up with this percentage to sound smart
http://www.amazon.com/Wrath-of-the-Lich-King-vs-Age-of-Reckoning/meters/A3E8KCX2260OJM#items
Our university here, 90% of students gamers have pre ordered wrath of the lich king. What does amazon have to prove? We're ready to buy wrath of the lich king expansion here nearby ebgames stores. Wrath of the lich king is already mega sellers here. Your an idiot.
Yes thatsd right my university campus is going to line up for the release of lich king expansion , imagine the colleges across the country. Yes its that BIG.
Funny, 123 provides a link to backup what he says, you spout loads of crap with no proof to back up your statement. Who is the idiot? What university do you go to? "I'mawowfanboiU"? Sorry guy but you cant come here, spout off a bunch of fanboyish crap, not post links to back up your claims and expect to be taken seriously.
That said, WOTLK will do well. At least till people realise its the same garbage over and over again. Although if people havent seen that by now they may not ever see it.
WoW's decline is innevitable, look at all the previous leaders, its just a matter of time.
I am HOPING warhammer doesn't fail like AoC because ive spent alot of time on this game and pre-ordered it already. At this point you cant tell, closed beta is not the actual game yet.
Heres to hoping, cheers.
I would not call one single area a fix to there open world PvP issues. Even on PvE servers its going to be that one focal point and it will be popular for a while then back off. Look at Halaa. Only reason it ever changes hands is someone wants the daily.
Halaa was ill placed imo. Once you outlevelled Nagrand there were very few reasons to actually do anything with Halaa. That was mostly the problem with it.
The new zone is top level I think which should help a lot and owning it means you get extra stuff from the dungeons you do *across the world* which hopefully also adds to keeping it active.
It's no Daoc or WAR but it's a step in the right direction at least
I never understand why everyone goes crazy over pre-orders or account numbers, why cant you be happy with a consistant community? large or small, when you have friends you have fun.
Statistics in mmorpgs posts are a bunch of bull**** for wannabe bureaucrats.
Everybody will agree about WOW declining sooner or later. But the reasons you gave are completely wrong, in my oppinion. I mean, they are more likely reasons for WOW's succes. Ten and 25 man raids are extremely popular, they are great for smaller guilds.
Good point. I didnt know it added to loot across the world. In WoW thats going to be major. The only problem they will run into is population imballances. They have shown so far they are incapable of fixing thoes issues.
Frankly I hate WoW, but I dont need to see if die like so many others. So long as WAR delivers what its saying, and it has a solid enough community to keep the servers going and fun, thats all I really care about. Whoever is having fun in WoW is not going to effect me having fun in another game, regardless of what it is.
75% percent of us will not touch that expansion
and im not coming up with this percentage to sound smart
http://www.amazon.com/Wrath-of-the-Lich-King-vs-Age-of-Reckoning/meters/A3E8KCX2260OJM#items
Our university here, 90% of students gamers have pre ordered wrath of the lich king. What does amazon have to prove? We're ready to buy wrath of the lich king expansion here nearby ebgames stores. Wrath of the lich king is already mega sellers here. Your an idiot.
Yes thatsd right my university campus is going to line up for the release of lich king expansion , imagine the colleges across the country. Yes its that BIG.
Funny, 123 provides a link to backup what he says, you spout loads of crap with no proof to back up your statement. Who is the idiot? What university do you go to? "I'mawowfanboiU"? Sorry guy but you cant come here, spout off a bunch of fanboyish crap, not post links to back up your claims and expect to be taken seriously.
That said, WOTLK will do well. At least till people realise its the same garbage over and over again. Although if people havent seen that by now they may not ever see it.
I already countered this: here are the actual FACTS !!!!!!!!!!!
look at the actual preorders of WotLK and Warhammer now .
For US amazon
Wotlk is at position 7, Warhammer is at position ....180
http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1217328562/ref=sr_nr_n_4?ie=UTF8&rs=468642&bbn=229575&rnid=11846801&rh=n%3A468642%2Cn%3A229575
For GE Amazon
WotLK is at positon 1 (even in the overall video games section) , Warhammer in position ... 24 (PC sales) and position 80 (overall games).
http://www.amazon.de/Games/s/qid=1217327385/ref=sr_pg_1?ie=UTF8&rs=300992&bbn=300992&rh=n%3A300992&page=1
So it is quite clear. WotLK pre orders dwarf War pre orders by a very wide margin.
The only thing was (up until two weeks ago) was that the US CE edition of War promised open Beta and this effect has now faded out as these places are gone (just look at the normal boxes of war). WotLK need no open access to lure in customers.
So the guy at the university is RIGHT and you are plainly wrong - WITH the stats of Amazon as proof !
Oh, I'm sorry I'm wrong. Thoes links CLEARLY state that over 90% of HIS university is preordering WOTLK.
Why wont you go away Vick. You only see what you want to and never add anything half way inteligent to the conversation. Of course WoW's pre-orders are going to be higher than WAR. I'm not arguing that. My point is you cant come here making blanket statements like "Over 90% of my university is pre-ordering WOTLK" and be taken seriously. First, they dont even know 90% of there university. The most popular person doesnt know 90% of the university unless its student size is a few hundred tops.
Secondly I know for a fact over 90% of his university doesnt even play WoW. <---see how stupid that looks? How could I POSSIBLY know how many people at his university plays WoW? In the same respect, how could he POSSIBLY know over 90% is pre-ordering WOLK. Unless he personally polled every single person he couldnt. Try again Vick, you are plainly wrong in refuting what I posted.
You know, I still have to say....if they came out with something as unoriginal as let's say....."World of Starcraft" or something of the sort....I wouldn't hesitate to try it out. Playing as a zealot or hydralisk doesn't sound half bad really .
Yep, but I showed you the real stats of pre-orders. And it shows that a lot of XXXX is being written about WOW and WotLK without any foundation. The only motivation is hate and I can' except that.
And I don't go away in a thread about Wow's decline if this is simply not based on facts.
The moment I arrived here in MMORPG.COM I couldn't believe my eyes the hate treatment World of Warcraft receives.
The only thing these politics end result is ... that MORE mediocre MMORPG's are published with MORE frustrated people trying them with MORE players abandoning the genre.
Warhammer is the Xth MMORPG in a row that is a "Wow"killer and the only things we achieved is the one burial after another for the past 3 years.
No doubt tx to websites like MMORPG.COM and its fundamental hate against the number PC1 game played for 3 years now.
I agree with this. It makes sense when you think about it.
Warhammer Online
Crnobog, The Black God
Chaos Chosen
<Guildless>
I don't see why any Warhammer Online player wants WoW to loose its subs. If you remember the shit WoW community, you would want 80% of WoW players to stay where they are.
Warhammer Online
Crnobog, The Black God
Chaos Chosen
<Guildless>
Yep, but I showed you the real stats of pre-orders. And it shows that a lot of XXXX is being written about WOW and WotLK without any foundation. The only motivation is hate and I can' except that.
And I don't go away in a thread about Wow's decline if this is simply not based on facts.
The moment I arrived here in MMORPG.COM I couldn't believe my eyes the hate treatment World of Warcraft receives.
The only thing these politics end result is ... that MORE mediocre MMORPG's are published with MORE frustrated people trying them with MORE players abandoning the genre.
Warhammer is the Xth MMORPG in a row that is a "Wow"killer and the only things we achieved is the one burial after another for the past 3 years.
No doubt tx to websites like MMORPG.COM and its fundamental hate against the number PC1 game played for 3 years now.
Neither I nor the OP claimed WAR was going to kill WoW. I have never claimed WAR will dethrone WoW. The OP gave his opinions on why WoW will eventually fall and most of us here agree with it. As a matter of fact, most of the WAR fan's here dont think it will dethrone WoW nor do we want it to. Again, you only see what you want, or dont fully read before jumping the gun. On the other hand, you take every chance to trash WAR and say things that simply arent facts. If you want proof, look at the other thread where you try to say PQ's are the only end game PvE WAR has. Thats simply untrue and you are doing the same thing you claim you are trying to protect WoW from.
Also, if you think Dev's are releasing half finished, buggy games because of places like MMORPG.com and there members your completely wrong. They release thoes POS games because people still buy them. Could the same thing happen with WAR? Its possible. Not likely, but possible.
Please, also name me ONE MMORPG that WoW burried. Vanguard is still going. EQ2 is still going. LOTRO is still going. AoC is still going and even with its many faults, will still keep going (see vanguard). No, none of these games are doing as well as WoW, but WoW definitly hasnt killed a single MMO that has released.
Your a typical WoW fanboi who feels the need to trash any new game comming out. Stop trying to *prove* everything said about WoW is false when in fact, you state false things about other games. No matter how many links you post trying to "prove" WoW is the greatest thing since sliced bread you will not change the opinion of anyone who doesnt like WoW be it here at MMORPG.com or anywhere else for that matter.
Edit: Also wanted to point out if you read my reply to Pheace, I clearly state I do hate WoW, but I do NOT want to see it die. As much as I dislike WoW, it did do something good for the genra...it brought in tons of players who wouldnt have given MMO's a second look.
People that hate games .... should first see a Doctor. Help could be needed here.
I never even said Warhammer sucked. I point out the 4 things they should change in WAR, but if the fan boys don't wanna listen and just can't read, well I am only here to rectify the "hype".
For those not reading or listening: to sum it up :
it's lack of hi end grouped PVE content, RvR only has a limited replay value (see Conan), the balance of way too much classes and development of them and the very bad PvP fights shown on the web (a PvP game based on stiff and slow animations with floating moonwalked characters is just not a good base to gather long term PvP interest).
But I will never say "I hate this or that game", never even said it won't be a succes, but I do say Mythic let a chance slip by. You can't win over gamers to a lesser product.
Np: proof will be there in Jan 09.
And BTW: games that DO have less than 100K subs die. 1.2 million dollars each month is way to small to cover the costs, let alone reprogram new content in a meaningful way. They sit there, right, on a GY and nobody is going to rez them. (VG, TR, D&DO, Pirates, Hellgate,...) the others have 200K subs or less, hardly making money to justify big investments.
Edit: You can call me a fan of Wow: at least I played that game for years, YOU are promoting a game it isn't even published yet. How do you call such a person ???
Many people who pre-order WoTLK never even heard of WAR. Trust me, WoW has enough sheeple (sheep people) to keep them going for a long time. All they need to do is promise alot, and since they bring in millions a month they can keep those promises. So don't worry Vicks, Northrend won't be a ghost town because of WAR so don't feel threatened by it (we all know you do on the inside. Go ahead and deny it. Otherwise you wouldn't be here so much.) WAR will, however, be its own success.
Predicting at least 400K subs AFTER the first month. If Mythic has a smooth launch with a complete game, it could be even more.
EDIT: OP, those reasons are why so many people are anticipating WoTLK. They want to be able to raid, not have elite nerds tell them they suck too much to go on that 25-man. Again, that's copying WAR. WAR offers everyone access to everything, whereas WoW hasn't - they're trying to do that now. Smart move, and one that might take some customers away from WAR just because they have friends in WoW or they're comfortable in cartoony, bunny hopping Azeroth.
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
I am even predicting 600K in its fist month and 800K in its second.
)
My WAR CE was ordered 3 months ago, so np there.
People have to just stop lying about WOW though.
Even double these WAR figures could have been reached if the points were rectified.
The way I am playing Wow doesn't matter, even at 1/4 the subs I wouldn't even notice (family guild with 20+ members) and doing PvP about 80% of the time.
So no type casting here
)))
Well good! Now you won't be seen as a WoW fanboi. Some of us WAR boys might call WoW crap, we might hate it, etc. But that's not everyone. I, at least, acknowledge that WoW is a good gateway MMO and that it's a solid, finished product, until you're a veteran and you start realizing the futility and the pointlessness of some of the grinding and raiding and such that it forces you to do. If you still like WoW (you couldn't have been playing for more than 2 years if that's the case...otherwise you're very tolerant) then that's great. I've said if WoTLK doesn't turn out to be gnome Death Knights and boxed in open-world PvP, I'll try it.
But turning WoW into WWII is a bit rediculous, it sounds great on paper but I mean what the hell? Go play a FPS if you want that, you can kill alot faster. Adding more air + sea means of transportation = more little kids flying or sailing away when they're losing going "neener neener nubcake I is teh 1337".
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
For the longest time nobody thought any game would be an EQ killer, and nobody thought that it would be WoW.
You won't see it coming. Some game will release, and suddenly it will be the new top dog. So what?
Well good! Now you won't be seen as a WoW fanboi. Some of us WAR boys might call WoW crap, we might hate it, etc. But that's not everyone. I, at least, acknowledge that WoW is a good gateway MMO and that it's a solid, finished product, until you're a veteran and you start realizing the futility and the pointlessness of some of the grinding and raiding and such that it forces you to do. If you still like WoW (you couldn't have been playing for more than 2 years if that's the case...otherwise you're very tolerant) then that's great. I've said if WoTLK doesn't turn out to be gnome Death Knights and boxed in open-world PvP, I'll try it.
But turning WoW into WWII is a bit rediculous, it sounds great on paper but I mean what the hell? Go play a FPS if you want that, you can kill alot faster. Adding more air + sea means of transportation = more little kids flying or sailing away when they're losing going "neener neener nubcake I is teh 1337".
Well that's the strange thing and it also what I LIKE about it ... these things were already in it years ago and they make now use of them.
The siege weaponry of WC3, the launched airplanes in Ironforge, the Zeppelins, all thing already IN the game for years and now that they are being used in some real world Pvp combat, it is suddenly WW2....
Everyone should be excited about these,... not frustrated.
I know Warhammer lore better than most on these forums here. My army of Teutogen Guards has seen more battles than most would even dream of. The Middenland Armies were perfect... until GW scrapped them all. As an Empire warlord I disgusted the Sigmar fellow. WE were the order of Ulric. Scrapped. Gone from all official books....
))
Well good! Now you won't be seen as a WoW fanboi. Some of us WAR boys might call WoW crap, we might hate it, etc. But that's not everyone. I, at least, acknowledge that WoW is a good gateway MMO and that it's a solid, finished product, until you're a veteran and you start realizing the futility and the pointlessness of some of the grinding and raiding and such that it forces you to do. If you still like WoW (you couldn't have been playing for more than 2 years if that's the case...otherwise you're very tolerant) then that's great. I've said if WoTLK doesn't turn out to be gnome Death Knights and boxed in open-world PvP, I'll try it.
But turning WoW into WWII is a bit rediculous, it sounds great on paper but I mean what the hell? Go play a FPS if you want that, you can kill alot faster. Adding more air + sea means of transportation = more little kids flying or sailing away when they're losing going "neener neener nubcake I is teh 1337".
Well that's the strange thing and it also what I LIKE about it ... these things were already in it years ago and they make now use of them.
The siege weaponry of WC3, the launched airplanes in Ironforge, the Zeppelins, all thing already IN the game for years and now that they are being used in some real world Pvp combat, it is suddenly WW2....
Everyone should be excited about these,... not frustrated.
I know Warhammer lore better than most on these forums here. My army of Teutogen Guards has seen more battles than most would even dream of. The Middenland Armies were perfect... until GW scrapped them all. As an Empire warlord I disgusted the Sigmar fellow. WE were the order of Ulric. Scrapped. Gone from all official books....
))
That's one thing I'll give WoW - it seems like they put things in the world to make you wonder "is that just for decoration or..."
Not just the siege weapons, but my friend told me yesterday that in the northern part of Stormwind they have explosives set up just north of one of the bridges. He said that they were blowing up the wall when WoTLK comes out, and there will be a road there connecting Stormwind to Stormwind Harbor. That's kind of cool, it's not like overnight here comes all these changes because it's an expansion pack.
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
Why WoW will decline and other games outperform it?
Because that's how it usually goes, everything has it's time and all that and thank god for that, wouldn't wanna be stuck with WoW for the rest of my mmo gaming time.
Not particularly looking forward to Warhammer, but I gotta agree...I wouldn't wish WoW's community to move any other MMO, not even Vanguard, that's how much I hate it lol.