Why did you play it in the first place then? Have you learned nothing from EQ?
As for the reasons, I said it already, it's a game, it's fun. Any game has rules and if you change the rules too much it isn't the same game anymore. Blizzard knows that, so inovations they make are minute things that don't change the rules just the font they are writen in. You can rationalise it any way you want, but in the end it all comes down to you beeing burned out and now preaching doom. I just wish you people took less time to figure out it's not the game that changed (or not changed) and therefor now sucks, it's just how you see it.
You seem to miss the whole bit. I'm not "burned out" as you imply, rather I looked at the future, and went "why bother?"
There IS a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge that.
The OP didn't seem angry or in rage to me. He was stating his opinion logically as well. The game has changed quite a bit too. The never had dailies a while ago. They added more rep grinds, and made raid sizes smaller etc.
But they didn't add meaning to the game. Something I was really hoping they would do. Consequence, purpose, reason.
Warcraft has a legacy of conflict, yet...
In the MMO we have had none of this. Just mindless grinds for gear. I was really hoping to see meaning with WoTLK but... alas they chose to play it safe and go with more of the same.
And yes, I'm in the WAR Beta, and I have 2 CE pre-ordered.
I can see your point, but I guess I'll play it for a few reasons:
- I love the levelling. I'll get more enjoyment from levelling to 80 than I would from any game I paid £30 for (replace with local currency of your choice^^ ) Yeah, monthly sub and all that, but it won't take long to get there.
- PvP doesn't bother me, if it was an important aspect of an MMO for me I probably would have quit WoW by now.
- The lore. Yeah I like it. I didn't even mind the exodar thing. If I didn't cry at Spelljammer being part of the official D&D universe, I can't cry about a dimensional city
- There's nothing else. I mean, I totally agree that the essence of WoW is incredibly shallow, but I'm not willing to leave it to invest in something with 'a bit more.' When a decent, deep sandbox MMO comes along, byebye WoW.
I think it helps that I only play a couple of nights a week, and if I feel like raiding I'm lucky enough to have a guild that's happy with me suddenly popping online and blagging a raid slot if one is available
I guess a short answer would be because some people find it fun?
It isn't a matter of realization, its a matter of enjoyment. People enjoy the constant advancement of their character through playtime.
Even though this is a much more extreme example, i'll say it anyway: Why have a wife? I mean, eventually you'll grow bored of her or she'll die. What's the point in having her in the first place, if eventually she'll go away or be replaced?
The point is that not everything is done with "the end" in sight, or even the future for that matter. I guess it's a lot like that saying "live for the moment". If you enjoy having a wife, then have one, even with the possibility of losing her is in the future. If you want new shoes, buy new ones, even with the possibility of ruining them in the future. And the same goes for games; If you like them, play them, and if you don't, then don't.
If you're going to now ask me how people can like wow, I'm not going to directly answer, simply because preference is an extremely opinionated subject. I guess ask your wife? I hope you did that when you were talking with her. I guess a good example to mirror WoW's repetative-ness is racing on a track: The track never changes, and normally you drive the same car, so why go more than once? How can you find enjoyment out of doing the same thing over and over and over again? Well... Some people just do. Some people like what they like, and like liking what they like.
I guess a short answer would be because some people find it fun? It isn't a matter of realization, its a matter of enjoyment. People enjoy the constant advancement of their character through playtime. Even though this is a much more extreme example, i'll say it anyway: Why have a wife? I mean, eventually you'll grow bored of her or she'll die. What's the point in having her in the first place, if eventually she'll go away or be replaced? The point is that not everything is done with "the end" in sight, or even the future for that matter. I guess it's a lot like that saying "live for the moment". If you enjoy having a wife, then have one, even with the possibility of losing her is in the future. If you want new shoes, buy new ones, even with the possibility of ruining them in the future. And the same goes for games; If you like them, play them, and if you don't, then don't. If you're going to now ask me how people can like wow, I'm not going to directly answer, simply because preference is an extremely opinionated subject. I guess ask your wife? I hope you did that when you were talking with her. I guess a good example to mirror WoW's repetative-ness is racing on a track: The track never changes, and normally you drive the same car, so why go more than once? How can you find enjoyment out of doing the same thing over and over and over again? Well... Some people just do. Some people like what they like, and like liking what they like. Crazy, isn't it?
All they did was take the hair from the other races only about 7 new styles lol. For a company that makes all this money they sure don't have the best and brightest working there, and watch the new dances will be done the same way as well. When they went from wow to tbc all the mobs toke steroids. They all got bigger, guess what in wotlk they got even bigger. So i guess bigger is better LOL. It's the same old thing in a new shell,to get more epics, epics that come so freely now no effort sign up for bg and ping you are on your way to getting your new shinny epics. As for me i don't hate the game i just out grew it.
FFxi Retired Coh/Cov Retired Guild Wars/Retired WOW/(11-23-04/1-6-07) VSOH/ retired AOC/retired that was fast Waiting 4 DCUO ,and FFXIV
All MMOs expand on more of the same. I think your efforts of searching for some MMO that is going to end up differently is in vain. Really what you describe is in essence burnout, but it isn't worth discussing if you say it isn't.
Originally posted by Kyleran Or maybe not. I burned out on WOW right before TBC was released, because I knew then that the expansion really brought just more of the same, and that I wasn't enjoying it anymore. Happens to me on every game...at some point I've experienced enough of the content that I determine is fun and decide to quit and play a new game. So, if its not fun anymore, its time to move on.
Yes, but you can control yourself, you can use logic and good reasoning. You know why you quit and you are not on a vengeance path fueled by impotent rage.
His pain is so fresh he feels the need to make new thread to spread the truth, I'm talking about him, blinded by rage, unable to deal with it in any other way than hating on the thing he loved.
From your words, I get you enjoyed WoW, but never was lost in it like some of the people who feel betrayed because they didn't know what they were geting into in the first place.
In all fairness, when i first quit I was angry at Blizzard and WOW, and had some feelings of betrayal. There was so much I enjoyed, and WOW was the first game that I had experienced with its raiding style end game, so i didn't realize what i signed up for when i started.
Honestly, i was bitter because I could not keep up with the raiding, the PVP wasn't my style so I had to move on.
But i hold no long term grudge, for while I was there I had some great times, and I don't begrudge anyone else who still enjoys the game.
Me, I'm always looking for something new, so there never will be a "last game"....
(but in the meantime, EVE keeps drawing me back...not quite sure why, but hey, as long as its fun, right?)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is an small example of what he was trying to say, here are the new hair styles what a joke. http://deathknight.info/2008/08/new-hairstyles-datamined/ All they did was take the hair from the other races only about 7 new styles lol. For a company that makes all this money they sure don't have the best and brightest working there, and watch the new dances will be done the same way as well. When they went from wow to tbc all the mobs toke steroids. They all got bigger, guess what in wotlk they got even bigger. So i guess bigger is better LOL. It's the same old thing in a new shell,to get more epics, epics that come so freely now no effort sign up for bg and ping you are on your way to getting your new shinny epics. As for me i don't hate the game i just out grew it.
LOL hair styles are just a small addition in wotlk, please look here for the new stuff. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/192107 Expansions for all mmos are more of the same, if you dont like that dont play MMO's.
Not really. Some expansions radically change the game, like SWG's Jump to Lightspeed expansion.
And SWGs NGE expansion.
A bunch of expansions that change nothing and merely add to the orginal will cause a slow and steady leak of subscribers(like the OP) but expansions that radically change the core mechanics of the game almost always alienate the games primary fans and results in a mass exodus.
I can see your point, but I guess I'll play it for a few reasons:
- I love the levelling. I'll get more enjoyment from levelling to 80 than I would from any game I paid £30 for (replace with local currency of your choice^^ ) Yeah, monthly sub and all that, but it won't take long to get there. - PvP doesn't bother me, if it was an important aspect of an MMO for me I probably would have quit WoW by now. - The lore. Yeah I like it. I didn't even mind the exodar thing. If I didn't cry at Spelljammer being part of the official D&D universe, I can't cry about a dimensional city - There's nothing else. I mean, I totally agree that the essence of WoW is incredibly shallow, but I'm not willing to leave it to invest in something with 'a bit more.' When a decent, deep sandbox MMO comes along, byebye WoW.
I think it helps that I only play a couple of nights a week, and if I feel like raiding I'm lucky enough to have a guild that's happy with me suddenly popping online and blagging a raid slot if one is available
Yeah I agree the PvP in WoW is horrible but if you're not into PvP the game is decent. I guess I only see leveling as means to an end. To get to max level to PvP.
I really didn't mind the leveling or even getting the items but the PvP endgame is so sad, pointless, item centric, instanced and repetitive.
Face it the lore is just thrown together from different ideas for the basis of the game. I guess some people are into it tho.
WoW is definitely good for the casuals. It does not reward hardcoring as your gear just get replaced in a few weeks after an xpac anyways.
If you just jump in with a equal level char in welfare epix or blues you can easily catch up with some one in purple after an xpac. I guess that's what OP means by pointless, why bother going through hours of grinding.
If you love leveling, repetition and grinding, you'll like WoW.
In all fairness, when i first quit I was angry at Blizzard and WOW, and had some feelings of betrayal. There was so much I enjoyed, and WOW was the first game that I had experienced with its raiding style end game, so i didn't realize what i signed up for when i started. Honestly, i was bitter because I could not keep up with the raiding, the PVP wasn't my style so I had to move on. But i hold no long term grudge, for while I was there I had some great times, and I don't begrudge anyone else who still enjoys the game. Me, I'm always looking for something new, so there never will be a "last game".... (but in the meantime, EVE keeps drawing me back...not quite sure why, but hey, as long as its fun, right?)
I get that, I realy do, I hit the ceiling at 60 and also couldn't get on the raid train, I couldn't do BGs either because anyone who raided and had the slightest clue about PVP was a "PVP God" so I quit too. Not to mention the insane PVP grind to get some decent PVP gear.
That is why TBC changed it all for me. You can read alot of posts claiming there was way more factions to grind for and yes, there is, but almost all the grind needed theese days is acomplished just by doing quests. BGs were an option again and arenas for some fast and furious fights. Smaller raids ,so I even tryed that but raiding is still raiding and the best part is there is no need whatsoever to do it for my needs and my needs are PVP.
It's a shame you didn't stick around for TBC, it was more of the same but it made all the diference for me, practicly everything that I hated in the gameplay was gone. Welfare epics took care of OP people in the BGs, now everyone had at least some chance to compete and there was no invisible barier between us who play just for fun and people who play to acomplish. There is always that gear you can't get while playing casualy, but it's nowhere near the gap that was there BTBC.
So yeah, I'm looking forward to the "grindpack" because from what I've seen it has everything that I like from the begining, it should breath some new life into PVP again like TBC and this time around even more ways to customise your char via:quests, PVP, PVE, group content, raid content, achievments, crafting. Oh, and I'll have to at least try the DeathKnight.
I hope you enjoy EVE as much as I still enjoy WoW.
Originally posted by SonofSeth What the hell are you talking about?!
he asked "Why play the grindpak?". So I answered.
And instead of going after "the grindpak" part, I went after the "why play" part. Everyone can come on the boards and post all of their opinions and jazz on WoW, but that will never answer the question. The question is why.
Originally posted by SonofSeth What the hell are you talking about?!
he asked "Why play the grindpak?". So I answered.
And instead of going after "the grindpak" part, I went after the "why play" part. Everyone can come on the boards and post all of their opinions and jazz on WoW, but that will never answer the question. The question is why.
All I got from your "answer" is that you don't know much about cars or women.
If you love leveling, repetition and grinding, you'll like WoW.
You mean, WoW and every other MMO?
Nope i mean WoW. daoc pre-toa was not much grinding, gw and fury i hear there's not much grinding either. especially if you want to PvP.
Open your mind, mmo's don't have to only be about grind and items. That's where the genre is failing. And many MMO devs have the same mindset you do, MMOs is all about grind and items. Make people grind instead of give them sufficient content.
Grinding is when you kill the same mobs over and over again for rep.
Grind is when they make you do the same quests over and over for gold (dailies).
Grinding is when you do the same instances many times for rep/gold/daily.
Most PvE games are like that, so if you like PvE and grinding I guess WOW is for you.
Item centric repeatable grinds is where it shines.
Grind is making people repeat stuff over and over til they are sick of it =/= content.
Give people more world objectives that mean something to hold not only for PvE grinding purposes..
The funny thing is after all this grinding, when WOTLK comes out, a person can have a fresh 70 ready with greens/blues and get to the same level pretty easily as someone who has grinded for months, and that's what the OP is talking about. That's what is not getting through, because although he's using logic, all you see is anger and rage, which is really not apparent at all from his post.
As for gameplay changes, all the changes that were put into TBC made people change their type of gameplay. Much more rep/dailies without addition of as much content made people grind on the existing content over and over. How many times have you done the same heroic? Gameplay wise that has changed. Its more grinding and repetition than ever, and that has changed the quality of gameplay.
Repetition =/= content.
Blizzard is smart and found a way to make people repeat the same instances over and over.
But hey, some people enjoy doing the same things many times for items which will be replaced come xpac. Some people find it fun. I don't, and the OP doesn't either. He doesn't see a point. Just because you don't see his does not mean he's in a fit of "impotent rage" LMAO. Anyone who uses that term on another poster on a forum actually sounds like they are :P
So the grind is there whether you admit it or not.
It does not have to be. Not every MMO needs to have a repeatable grind vs content.
But apparently, some people think they do, and these people are the ones who WoW will make happy. To each their own.
I had a lot of fun in WoW when it was just a social thing to do with friends, but after awhile everything became a big production and I asked myself why I was doing it. In many ways I felt just like the OP when I quit.. the game is a grind to unlock a new grind, to unlock a new grind, and so on. The social side of the game because blurred with agendas, gear elitists, and raid statistics.
I played WoW on and off since launch, so I can't knock it too hard.. it just turned out to something other than what I wanted. I think if it had more then two spheres of game play (PVP, PVE), then I would have been able to find ways to ease the restlessness that built up over time. Lack of housing, a real crafting system, alternatives to gear advancement, meaningful pvp, and a community that's not agenda driven.. these really are the reason people keep saying the game is lacking.
I'm back to playing a blood mage in Vanguard.. I love it, the class is rare because its a hard class to play.. lots of skills that you have to micromanage.. lol it would probably make your average WoW player's head explode because of the complexity. That's where I found my place, and my happiness.
If you love leveling, repetition and grinding, you'll like WoW.
You mean, WoW and every other MMO?
Nope i mean WoW. daoc pre-toa was not much grinding, gw and fury i hear there's not much grinding either. especially if you want to PvP.
Open your mind, mmo's don't have to only be about grind and items. That's where the genre is failing. And many MMO devs have the same mindset you do, MMOs is all about grind and items. Make people grind instead of give them sufficient content.
I one sentence you specifically say only WoW is grindy.
Then you make a couple of incorrect examples of games without grind.
Then you say the entire genre is failing because all games are about grind.
I have no idea where you get your concepts, but all MMOs have limited content at end game. Most of that content is repeatable. The only difference is that some games do it better and offer more variety than others.
WoW offers more end game options of enjoyable content than any of its competitors. When someone comes along and creates a new style of endgame that gets rid of repetative tasks then we have something to discuss.
If you love leveling, repetition and grinding, you'll like WoW.
You mean, WoW and every other MMO?
Nope i mean WoW. daoc pre-toa was not much grinding, gw and fury i hear there's not much grinding either. especially if you want to PvP.
Open your mind, mmo's don't have to only be about grind and items. That's where the genre is failing. And many MMO devs have the same mindset you do, MMOs is all about grind and items. Make people grind instead of give them sufficient content.
I one sentence you specifically say only WoW is grindy.
Then you make a couple of incorrect examples of games without grind.
Then you say the entire genre is failing because all games are about grind.
I have no idea where you get your concepts, but all MMOs have limited content at end game. Most of that content is repeatable. The only difference is that some games do it better and offer more variety than others.
WoW offers more end game options of enjoyable content than any of its competitors. When someone comes along and creates a new style of endgame that gets rid of repetative tasks then we have something to discuss.
My examples are fine. GW and fury are both 2nd hand info tho. If you want to contest that just do it with logical comebacks.
L2R! I didn't say it's failing because all games are about grind but some are, especially WoW.
Of course all MMOs have limited content end game, i never contested that. When did it say content was limitless? Stop putting text in my post.
I highlighted my text to help you with the comprehansion. Notice the words, "not much grinding" and "many mmos" in my texts.
If you enjoy WoW grinding then it's all good, as i said to each his own. If you enjoy badge collecting or raiding nightly then hey, WoW's your game. If you enjoy 4BGs and arena as endgame PvP then play WoW.
Some people just don't and some do.
"When someone comes along and creates a new style of endgame that gets rid of repetative tasks then we have something to discuss. "
Why when someone comes along? If the lightbulb was not created, you can't discuss ideas? How in the world is anything invented of change instituted if one cannot discuss ideas not yet implemented?
Everyone has a threshold for grindage. That's why people still play WoW and asian grinders because their threshold is higher. Doing the same heroic and PvE/PvP instances over and over countless times is not my idea of fun. But if you like it, go for it.
WoW is the master of the PvE variety.... dailies, badges, heroics, rep grinds. It keeps people grinding on existing content repeatedly. Not PvP variety tho. 4 BG and arenas is pretty sad imo. They have left the massive out of MMO PvP. World PvP is pretty much dead and they instanced everything into BGs and arenas.
WoW PvE is like a carrot on the stick except the horse is allowed to reach and eat the carrot after which time the carrot is replaced by a bigger carrot and the horse again goes for it. As long as chasing the carrot is fun, players will keep playing. Once they are full or realise it futile because the carrot just gets replaced and its no longer fun they quit. It's the nature of the game.
If you have a game that replaces this carrot with let's say a destination to reach or greater goal which culminates in progression of gameplay or lore then maybe the horse will be replaced by a knight and will go even further.
The latest guilds wars expansion is all reputation grinds and the like and really isn't a traditional MMO. Fury is a dead game and widely considered not a 'real mmo' either. Original DAOC was about as grindy as WoW is now and only got worse. I wouldn't say your examples are fine by any means.
When someone asked you "You mean, WoW and every other MMO?", you responded "Nope i mean WoW.". You can try to color all your other comments however you want, but you sure go the extra mile to put all the blame on one game for something you admit is a widespread problem in the entire genre.
Honestly all fantasy MMOs right now are built on the same foundation of level up, adventure, acquire items, repeat or carrot on a stick as you put it.
Personally I think WoW is about the least grind centric fantasy game on the market right now and offers more choices of activities at end game than the next closest competitor. WoW has great PvE and while it isn't some massive PvP game, it sure does better PvP than just about any other game our right now. That is a pretty big accomlishment especially if you compare it to many of the other games that are at best a one trick pony.
Are you really trying to discuss the lightbulb of just singling out one game for the faults of the entire genre?
The latest guilds wars expansion is all reputation grinds and the like and really isn't a traditional MMO. Fury is a dead game and widely considered not a 'real mmo' either. Original DAOC was about as grindy as WoW is now and only got worse. I wouldn't say your examples are fine by any means.
When someone asked you "You mean, WoW and every other MMO?", you responded "Nope i mean WoW.". You can try to color all your other comments however you want, but you sure go the extra mile to put all the blame on one game for something you admit is a widespread problem in the entire genre. Honestly all fantasy MMOs right now are built on the same foundation of level up, adventure, acquire items, repeat or carrot on a stick as you put it.
Personally I think WoW is about the least grind centric fantasy game on the market right now and offers more choices of activities at end game than the next closest competitor. WoW has great PvE and while it isn't some massive PvP game, it sure does better PvP than just about any other game our right now. That is a pretty big accomlishment especially if you compare it to many of the other games that are at best a one trick pony.
Are you really trying to discuss the lightbulb of just singling out one game for the faults of the entire genre?
Pre-toa daoc was nowhere as grindy as wow.
"You mean, WoW and every other MMO?:"
I didn't put the blame on WoW just the fact that there is grind in it. I meant WoW had it, I didn't make a sweeping statement that every MMO had it. WoW has more grind than pre-toa daoc for sure. I managed to get through daoc pretty much without any grinding whatsoever after I max leveled. That's definitely less "grindy" than having to farm rep or instances. Even though you didn't consider fury an mmo, it was and did not have as much grind.
"Personally I think WoW is about the least grind centric fantasy game on the market right now"
DAOC classic servers definitely have less grind than WoW.
Once again reading comprehension. I never said WoW caused the whole genre's problems, merely that it followed suit. It does disguise the grind better than most but it's still there.
I'm saying MMO's as a whole need to focus less on grind and extend true content with less repetition, and the fact that the a whole lot of past effort is being totally ignored after every xpac hits.
What's sad is the same 4 BGs and arena in PvP that concerns me. They just upgrade the gear and make you grind again the same PvP content. There is a lack of options out there right now, but there is a large void to fill for PvP. That's why so many wanted to try AOC, they wanted better PvP among other things. If a game can come and fill that void it will pull a large demographic of WoW away. At least you admit WoW PvP is not massive. Another problem is it is all instanced, with no endgame world objectives other than PvE driven ones.
This is an small example of what he was trying to say, here are the new hair styles what a joke. http://deathknight.info/2008/08/new-hairstyles-datamined/ All they did was take the hair from the other races only about 7 new styles lol. For a company that makes all this money they sure don't have the best and brightest working there, and watch the new dances will be done the same way as well. When they went from wow to tbc all the mobs toke steroids. They all got bigger, guess what in wotlk they got even bigger. So i guess bigger is better LOL. It's the same old thing in a new shell,to get more epics, epics that come so freely now no effort sign up for bg and ping you are on your way to getting your new shinny epics. As for me i don't hate the game i just out grew it.
Some people are so narrow minded. The important point is not how many new hairstyles are introduced with WoTLK, but rather the fact that they've introduced the barber shop. Now that the barber shop is in the game, they could add new hairstyles with every single patch and eventually have an infinite number of new hair styles. The concept is what is important, not the details. Besides, Blizzard has already stated that the Barbershop is not fully implemented yet. I'm sure they will be adding additional hairstyles etc as the game gets closer to release.
This is an small example of what he was trying to say, here are the new hair styles what a joke. http://deathknight.info/2008/08/new-hairstyles-datamined/ All they did was take the hair from the other races only about 7 new styles lol. For a company that makes all this money they sure don't have the best and brightest working there, and watch the new dances will be done the same way as well. When they went from wow to tbc all the mobs toke steroids. They all got bigger, guess what in wotlk they got even bigger. So i guess bigger is better LOL. It's the same old thing in a new shell,to get more epics, epics that come so freely now no effort sign up for bg and ping you are on your way to getting your new shinny epics. As for me i don't hate the game i just out grew it.
Some people are so narrow minded. The important point is not how many new hairstyles are introduced with WoTLK, but rather the fact that they've introduced the barber shop. Now that the barber shop is in the game, they could add new hairstyles with every single patch and eventually have an infinite number of new hair styles. The concept is what is important, not the details. Besides, Blizzard has already stated that the Barbershop is not fully implemented yet. I'm sure they will be adding additional hairstyles etc as the game gets closer to release.
Hey barber shop. I think that's pretty cool.... It would be nice to change your toon's hair.
Comments
You seem to miss the whole bit. I'm not "burned out" as you imply, rather I looked at the future, and went "why bother?"
There IS a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge that.
Always change your signature.
But they didn't add meaning to the game. Something I was really hoping they would do. Consequence, purpose, reason.
Warcraft has a legacy of conflict, yet...
In the MMO we have had none of this. Just mindless grinds for gear. I was really hoping to see meaning with WoTLK but... alas they chose to play it safe and go with more of the same.
And yes, I'm in the WAR Beta, and I have 2 CE pre-ordered.
Always change your signature.
I can see your point, but I guess I'll play it for a few reasons:
- I love the levelling. I'll get more enjoyment from levelling to 80 than I would from any game I paid £30 for (replace with local currency of your choice^^ ) Yeah, monthly sub and all that, but it won't take long to get there.
- PvP doesn't bother me, if it was an important aspect of an MMO for me I probably would have quit WoW by now.
- The lore. Yeah I like it. I didn't even mind the exodar thing. If I didn't cry at Spelljammer being part of the official D&D universe, I can't cry about a dimensional city
- There's nothing else. I mean, I totally agree that the essence of WoW is incredibly shallow, but I'm not willing to leave it to invest in something with 'a bit more.' When a decent, deep sandbox MMO comes along, byebye WoW.
I think it helps that I only play a couple of nights a week, and if I feel like raiding I'm lucky enough to have a guild that's happy with me suddenly popping online and blagging a raid slot if one is available
I guess a short answer would be because some people find it fun?
It isn't a matter of realization, its a matter of enjoyment. People enjoy the constant advancement of their character through playtime.
Even though this is a much more extreme example, i'll say it anyway: Why have a wife? I mean, eventually you'll grow bored of her or she'll die. What's the point in having her in the first place, if eventually she'll go away or be replaced?
The point is that not everything is done with "the end" in sight, or even the future for that matter. I guess it's a lot like that saying "live for the moment". If you enjoy having a wife, then have one, even with the possibility of losing her is in the future. If you want new shoes, buy new ones, even with the possibility of ruining them in the future. And the same goes for games; If you like them, play them, and if you don't, then don't.
If you're going to now ask me how people can like wow, I'm not going to directly answer, simply because preference is an extremely opinionated subject. I guess ask your wife? I hope you did that when you were talking with her. I guess a good example to mirror WoW's repetative-ness is racing on a track: The track never changes, and normally you drive the same car, so why go more than once? How can you find enjoyment out of doing the same thing over and over and over again? Well... Some people just do. Some people like what they like, and like liking what they like.
Crazy, isn't it?
What the hell are you talking about?!
This is an small example of what he was trying to say, here are the new hair styles what a joke.
http://deathknight.info/2008/08/new-hairstyles-datamined/
All they did was take the hair from the other races only about 7 new styles lol. For a company that makes all this money they sure don't have the best and brightest working there, and watch the new dances will be done the same way as well. When they went from wow to tbc all the mobs toke steroids. They all got bigger, guess what in wotlk they got even bigger. So i guess bigger is better LOL. It's the same old thing in a new shell,to get more epics, epics that come so freely now no effort sign up for bg and ping you are on your way to getting your new shinny epics. As for me i don't hate the game i just out grew it.
FFxi Retired
Coh/Cov Retired
Guild Wars/Retired
WOW/(11-23-04/1-6-07)
VSOH/ retired
AOC/retired that was fast
Waiting 4 DCUO ,and FFXIV
[quote]Why bother grinding to 80? Why bother running 10 man arthas? Get more gear that, in 18-24 months will be pointless again?[/quote]
because if you dont do it n this game you will do the same thing in a diff mmorpg? you basically just said why play an mmorpg..
All MMOs expand on more of the same. I think your efforts of searching for some MMO that is going to end up differently is in vain. Really what you describe is in essence burnout, but it isn't worth discussing if you say it isn't.
Yes, but you can control yourself, you can use logic and good reasoning. You know why you quit and you are not on a vengeance path fueled by impotent rage.
His pain is so fresh he feels the need to make new thread to spread the truth, I'm talking about him, blinded by rage, unable to deal with it in any other way than hating on the thing he loved.
From your words, I get you enjoyed WoW, but never was lost in it like some of the people who feel betrayed because they didn't know what they were geting into in the first place.
In all fairness, when i first quit I was angry at Blizzard and WOW, and had some feelings of betrayal. There was so much I enjoyed, and WOW was the first game that I had experienced with its raiding style end game, so i didn't realize what i signed up for when i started.
Honestly, i was bitter because I could not keep up with the raiding, the PVP wasn't my style so I had to move on.
But i hold no long term grudge, for while I was there I had some great times, and I don't begrudge anyone else who still enjoys the game.
Me, I'm always looking for something new, so there never will be a "last game"....
(but in the meantime, EVE keeps drawing me back...not quite sure why, but hey, as long as its fun, right?)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
LOL hair styles are just a small addition in wotlk, please look here for the new stuff. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/192107 Expansions for all mmos are more of the same, if you dont like that dont play MMO's.
Not really. Some expansions radically change the game, like SWG's Jump to Lightspeed expansion.
And SWGs NGE expansion.
A bunch of expansions that change nothing and merely add to the orginal will cause a slow and steady leak of subscribers(like the OP) but expansions that radically change the core mechanics of the game almost always alienate the games primary fans and results in a mass exodus.
Yeah I agree the PvP in WoW is horrible but if you're not into PvP the game is decent. I guess I only see leveling as means to an end. To get to max level to PvP.
I really didn't mind the leveling or even getting the items but the PvP endgame is so sad, pointless, item centric, instanced and repetitive.
Face it the lore is just thrown together from different ideas for the basis of the game. I guess some people are into it tho.
WoW is definitely good for the casuals. It does not reward hardcoring as your gear just get replaced in a few weeks after an xpac anyways.
If you just jump in with a equal level char in welfare epix or blues you can easily catch up with some one in purple after an xpac. I guess that's what OP means by pointless, why bother going through hours of grinding.
If you love leveling, repetition and grinding, you'll like WoW.
I get that, I realy do, I hit the ceiling at 60 and also couldn't get on the raid train, I couldn't do BGs either because anyone who raided and had the slightest clue about PVP was a "PVP God" so I quit too. Not to mention the insane PVP grind to get some decent PVP gear.
That is why TBC changed it all for me. You can read alot of posts claiming there was way more factions to grind for and yes, there is, but almost all the grind needed theese days is acomplished just by doing quests. BGs were an option again and arenas for some fast and furious fights. Smaller raids ,so I even tryed that but raiding is still raiding and the best part is there is no need whatsoever to do it for my needs and my needs are PVP.
It's a shame you didn't stick around for TBC, it was more of the same but it made all the diference for me, practicly everything that I hated in the gameplay was gone. Welfare epics took care of OP people in the BGs, now everyone had at least some chance to compete and there was no invisible barier between us who play just for fun and people who play to acomplish. There is always that gear you can't get while playing casualy, but it's nowhere near the gap that was there BTBC.
So yeah, I'm looking forward to the "grindpack" because from what I've seen it has everything that I like from the begining, it should breath some new life into PVP again like TBC and this time around even more ways to customise your char via:quests, PVP, PVE, group content, raid content, achievments, crafting. Oh, and I'll have to at least try the DeathKnight.
I hope you enjoy EVE as much as I still enjoy WoW.
See you in Northrend!
You mean, WoW and every other MMO?
he asked "Why play the grindpak?". So I answered.
And instead of going after "the grindpak" part, I went after the "why play" part. Everyone can come on the boards and post all of their opinions and jazz on WoW, but that will never answer the question. The question is why.
he asked "Why play the grindpak?". So I answered.
And instead of going after "the grindpak" part, I went after the "why play" part. Everyone can come on the boards and post all of their opinions and jazz on WoW, but that will never answer the question. The question is why.
All I got from your "answer" is that you don't know much about cars or women.
You mean, WoW and every other MMO?
Nope i mean WoW. daoc pre-toa was not much grinding, gw and fury i hear there's not much grinding either. especially if you want to PvP.
Open your mind, mmo's don't have to only be about grind and items. That's where the genre is failing. And many MMO devs have the same mindset you do, MMOs is all about grind and items. Make people grind instead of give them sufficient content.
Grinding is when you kill the same mobs over and over again for rep.
Grind is when they make you do the same quests over and over for gold (dailies).
Grinding is when you do the same instances many times for rep/gold/daily.
Most PvE games are like that, so if you like PvE and grinding I guess WOW is for you.
Item centric repeatable grinds is where it shines.
Grind is making people repeat stuff over and over til they are sick of it =/= content.
Give people more world objectives that mean something to hold not only for PvE grinding purposes..
The funny thing is after all this grinding, when WOTLK comes out, a person can have a fresh 70 ready with greens/blues and get to the same level pretty easily as someone who has grinded for months, and that's what the OP is talking about. That's what is not getting through, because although he's using logic, all you see is anger and rage, which is really not apparent at all from his post.
As for gameplay changes, all the changes that were put into TBC made people change their type of gameplay. Much more rep/dailies without addition of as much content made people grind on the existing content over and over. How many times have you done the same heroic? Gameplay wise that has changed. Its more grinding and repetition than ever, and that has changed the quality of gameplay.
Repetition =/= content.
Blizzard is smart and found a way to make people repeat the same instances over and over.
But hey, some people enjoy doing the same things many times for items which will be replaced come xpac. Some people find it fun. I don't, and the OP doesn't either. He doesn't see a point. Just because you don't see his does not mean he's in a fit of "impotent rage" LMAO. Anyone who uses that term on another poster on a forum actually sounds like they are :P
So the grind is there whether you admit it or not.
It does not have to be. Not every MMO needs to have a repeatable grind vs content.
But apparently, some people think they do, and these people are the ones who WoW will make happy. To each their own.
I had a lot of fun in WoW when it was just a social thing to do with friends, but after awhile everything became a big production and I asked myself why I was doing it. In many ways I felt just like the OP when I quit.. the game is a grind to unlock a new grind, to unlock a new grind, and so on. The social side of the game because blurred with agendas, gear elitists, and raid statistics.
I played WoW on and off since launch, so I can't knock it too hard.. it just turned out to something other than what I wanted. I think if it had more then two spheres of game play (PVP, PVE), then I would have been able to find ways to ease the restlessness that built up over time. Lack of housing, a real crafting system, alternatives to gear advancement, meaningful pvp, and a community that's not agenda driven.. these really are the reason people keep saying the game is lacking.
I'm back to playing a blood mage in Vanguard.. I love it, the class is rare because its a hard class to play.. lots of skills that you have to micromanage.. lol it would probably make your average WoW player's head explode because of the complexity. That's where I found my place, and my happiness.
You mean, WoW and every other MMO?
Nope i mean WoW. daoc pre-toa was not much grinding, gw and fury i hear there's not much grinding either. especially if you want to PvP.
Open your mind, mmo's don't have to only be about grind and items. That's where the genre is failing. And many MMO devs have the same mindset you do, MMOs is all about grind and items. Make people grind instead of give them sufficient content.
I one sentence you specifically say only WoW is grindy.
Then you make a couple of incorrect examples of games without grind.
Then you say the entire genre is failing because all games are about grind.
I have no idea where you get your concepts, but all MMOs have limited content at end game. Most of that content is repeatable. The only difference is that some games do it better and offer more variety than others.
WoW offers more end game options of enjoyable content than any of its competitors. When someone comes along and creates a new style of endgame that gets rid of repetative tasks then we have something to discuss.
You mean, WoW and every other MMO?
Nope i mean WoW. daoc pre-toa was not much grinding, gw and fury i hear there's not much grinding either. especially if you want to PvP.
Open your mind, mmo's don't have to only be about grind and items. That's where the genre is failing. And many MMO devs have the same mindset you do, MMOs is all about grind and items. Make people grind instead of give them sufficient content.
I one sentence you specifically say only WoW is grindy.
Then you make a couple of incorrect examples of games without grind.
Then you say the entire genre is failing because all games are about grind.
I have no idea where you get your concepts, but all MMOs have limited content at end game. Most of that content is repeatable. The only difference is that some games do it better and offer more variety than others.
WoW offers more end game options of enjoyable content than any of its competitors. When someone comes along and creates a new style of endgame that gets rid of repetative tasks then we have something to discuss.
My examples are fine. GW and fury are both 2nd hand info tho. If you want to contest that just do it with logical comebacks.
L2R! I didn't say it's failing because all games are about grind but some are, especially WoW.
Of course all MMOs have limited content end game, i never contested that. When did it say content was limitless? Stop putting text in my post.
I highlighted my text to help you with the comprehansion. Notice the words, "not much grinding" and "many mmos" in my texts.
If you enjoy WoW grinding then it's all good, as i said to each his own. If you enjoy badge collecting or raiding nightly then hey, WoW's your game. If you enjoy 4BGs and arena as endgame PvP then play WoW.
Some people just don't and some do.
"When someone comes along and creates a new style of endgame that gets rid of repetative tasks then we have something to discuss. "
Why when someone comes along? If the lightbulb was not created, you can't discuss ideas? How in the world is anything invented of change instituted if one cannot discuss ideas not yet implemented?
Everyone has a threshold for grindage. That's why people still play WoW and asian grinders because their threshold is higher. Doing the same heroic and PvE/PvP instances over and over countless times is not my idea of fun. But if you like it, go for it.
WoW is the master of the PvE variety.... dailies, badges, heroics, rep grinds. It keeps people grinding on existing content repeatedly. Not PvP variety tho. 4 BG and arenas is pretty sad imo. They have left the massive out of MMO PvP. World PvP is pretty much dead and they instanced everything into BGs and arenas.
WoW PvE is like a carrot on the stick except the horse is allowed to reach and eat the carrot after which time the carrot is replaced by a bigger carrot and the horse again goes for it. As long as chasing the carrot is fun, players will keep playing. Once they are full or realise it futile because the carrot just gets replaced and its no longer fun they quit. It's the nature of the game.
If you have a game that replaces this carrot with let's say a destination to reach or greater goal which culminates in progression of gameplay or lore then maybe the horse will be replaced by a knight and will go even further.
The latest guilds wars expansion is all reputation grinds and the like and really isn't a traditional MMO. Fury is a dead game and widely considered not a 'real mmo' either. Original DAOC was about as grindy as WoW is now and only got worse. I wouldn't say your examples are fine by any means.
When someone asked you "You mean, WoW and every other MMO?", you responded "Nope i mean WoW.". You can try to color all your other comments however you want, but you sure go the extra mile to put all the blame on one game for something you admit is a widespread problem in the entire genre.
Honestly all fantasy MMOs right now are built on the same foundation of level up, adventure, acquire items, repeat or carrot on a stick as you put it.
Personally I think WoW is about the least grind centric fantasy game on the market right now and offers more choices of activities at end game than the next closest competitor. WoW has great PvE and while it isn't some massive PvP game, it sure does better PvP than just about any other game our right now. That is a pretty big accomlishment especially if you compare it to many of the other games that are at best a one trick pony.
Are you really trying to discuss the lightbulb of just singling out one game for the faults of the entire genre?
Pre-toa daoc was nowhere as grindy as wow.
"You mean, WoW and every other MMO?:"
I didn't put the blame on WoW just the fact that there is grind in it. I meant WoW had it, I didn't make a sweeping statement that every MMO had it. WoW has more grind than pre-toa daoc for sure. I managed to get through daoc pretty much without any grinding whatsoever after I max leveled. That's definitely less "grindy" than having to farm rep or instances. Even though you didn't consider fury an mmo, it was and did not have as much grind.
"Personally I think WoW is about the least grind centric fantasy game on the market right now"
DAOC classic servers definitely have less grind than WoW.
Once again reading comprehension. I never said WoW caused the whole genre's problems, merely that it followed suit. It does disguise the grind better than most but it's still there.
I'm saying MMO's as a whole need to focus less on grind and extend true content with less repetition, and the fact that the a whole lot of past effort is being totally ignored after every xpac hits.
What's sad is the same 4 BGs and arena in PvP that concerns me. They just upgrade the gear and make you grind again the same PvP content. There is a lack of options out there right now, but there is a large void to fill for PvP. That's why so many wanted to try AOC, they wanted better PvP among other things. If a game can come and fill that void it will pull a large demographic of WoW away. At least you admit WoW PvP is not massive. Another problem is it is all instanced, with no endgame world objectives other than PvE driven ones.
Some people are so narrow minded. The important point is not how many new hairstyles are introduced with WoTLK, but rather the fact that they've introduced the barber shop. Now that the barber shop is in the game, they could add new hairstyles with every single patch and eventually have an infinite number of new hair styles. The concept is what is important, not the details. Besides, Blizzard has already stated that the Barbershop is not fully implemented yet. I'm sure they will be adding additional hairstyles etc as the game gets closer to release.
Some people are so narrow minded. The important point is not how many new hairstyles are introduced with WoTLK, but rather the fact that they've introduced the barber shop. Now that the barber shop is in the game, they could add new hairstyles with every single patch and eventually have an infinite number of new hair styles. The concept is what is important, not the details. Besides, Blizzard has already stated that the Barbershop is not fully implemented yet. I'm sure they will be adding additional hairstyles etc as the game gets closer to release.
Hey barber shop. I think that's pretty cool.... It would be nice to change your toon's hair.