After reading all the "ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING" threads, I thought I would add my own. Just for fun mind. The topic is serious, I am being serious and I think it's a legitimate issue of discussion.
Classes. There are only 4. WAIT, before you go off listing me all the different classes, how unique they are and that they fullfill their roles diferently from their arch type base...
There are still, only four classes in WAR. Tank, Light DPS, Ranged and Healer.
This is how your modern, WOWified user base is going to see the game. They won't see any difference between a Magus and Bright Wizard. A Shaman and a Warrior Priest. In their minds, the simplified "roles" of the classes will be all that they see. I was talking with a very good friend , trying to get him all fired up about WAR since I am in the beta. I didn't break NDA or anything, I just tried to exude enthusiasm and point him at the WAR sites.
His comment "But these classes, just reskins with different animations of the same four classes!"
That told me how and where, when the unwashed masses hit the WAR front in a month or so, are going to think. His first and only MMO is WoW. I think Mythic and the WAR fans are oing to have to be patient with the masss as they realize that there is far more to WAR then just "class roles".
And that i think, will be WAR's biggest stumbling block assuming launch is smooth and the client is stable. (The two biggest problems with all MMO's at launch btw)
Too bad I cant explain how Wrong you are or I'd be breaking the NDA.
Once they lift it I will be back and show you.
But please do not give misleading information without first going thru the facts firsthand.
Originally posted by Azrile My point is simply that the difference between an elemental shaman and an enhancement shaman is probably going to be greater than the difference in two of the classes in Warhammer.
and you base this opinion off of ... what exactly?
Honestly, if you really think that a Shamen and Warrior Priest feel like the same class... Then thats just too bad for you. Just wait till you play the game and compare the two classes for yourself. You can say this about ANY MMO, there are only 4 Arch types and whatever class you pick will fall into one of these or maybe a combination of them. For instance if you pick up a bow and shoot people, you fall into the ranged arch type.
Pick up some heavy armor, a sword and shield then you will fall into the tank arch type and so on.
If you're really that jaded with MMOs then don't play them. Even with Sandbox games your character will fall into these Arch types. Honestly, all these people making gloom and doom posts and saying things that are true of many if not all popular MMOs.
But that can be said about WOW too. An affliction Warlock and a Destruction Warlock are almost completely different (they even need different gear). An Enhancement Shaman is completely different from an Elemental Shaman. A Moonkin Druid is completely different than a Feral Druid. A Shadow Priest is completely different than a Holy Priest.
While it is probably inaccurate to say that Warhammer only really has 6-8 classes.. it's just as inaccurate to say that WOW only has 9 classes.
The argument is "what do you consider a class" because I can come out and say that WoW or any other game for that matter only has 4 classes, Tank. healer. MeleeDPS and MagicDPS and I would be correct.
And that is exacly my point in my original post. If you hate WOW, you are going to say that wow has only 9 classes and Warhammer has 20+. If you are anti-warhammer, you are going to point out that many of Warhammers different classes are actually the same. It all comes down to what your bias is.
My point is simply that the difference between an elemental shaman and an enhancement shaman is probably going to be greater than the difference in two of the classes in Warhammer.
I will tell you that is wrong big time. As i said above 2 differently specced shamans as example play so different it s not even funny. I can t say anymore really except you re wrong
What about Hunters? As i recall they don't fit into the 'Tank. healer. MeleeDPS and MagicDPS' Catagories you listed. I Have always classed them as ranged DPS and they aren't Magic DPS. Or would you simply bunch all Ranged / Melee / Magic DPS classes into one all encompassing DPS class?
Umm.... while you are correct that Mythic had 4 essential archetypes that they worked with, I just don't see how a Battle Priest and an Archmage could play the same(both are healers for their respective races).
Warhammer has about a month before WotLK is launched. I think a lot of it will have to do with Lake Winterspring when it is launched in beta in a few weeks. There are already videos floating around of WOW's seige weapons and they look fun. My guess is that most serious WOW pvp'ers ( yes, I can say that with a straight face) will come to Warhammer on Sept 18 and try it. I also think they will have their eye on the WotLK beta.
It will all come down to how polished Warhammer is during that first month. If the pvp is bugged, unpolished and imbalanced, I don't think most WOW players will risk falling behind in WotLK hoping Warhammer gets fixed. There is a huge advantage in WOW to getting to endgame pvp early.
I honestly think Warhammer has the potential to maintain over a million subscribers if it is balanced when launched. I think WotLK will really limit how long Warhammer has to fix problems though.
Warhammer has about a month before WotLK is launched. I think a lot of it will have to do with Lake Winterspring when it is launched in beta in a few weeks. There are already videos floating around of WOW's seige weapons and they look fun. My guess is that most serious WOW pvp'ers ( yes, I can say that with a straight face) will come to Warhammer on Sept 18 and try it. I also think they will have their eye on the WotLK beta. It will all come down to how polished Warhammer is during that first month. If the pvp is bugged, unpolished and imbalanced, I don't think most WOW players will risk falling behind in WotLK hoping Warhammer gets fixed. There is a huge advantage in WOW to getting to endgame pvp early. I honestly think Warhammer has the potential to maintain over a million subscribers if it is balanced when launched. I think WotLK will really limit how long Warhammer has to fix problems though.
There's end-game PvP? That's a first. I've been playing WoW since launch (except only recently as I've taken a break)...and PvP was hardly an end-game trait...pre and post BC.
Lets just say it doesnt matter what spec in WOW you are, you still need gear to be efficient in certain places. Mythic already officially stated gear will only be 20-30% of what your character is capable of. WoW right now is prolly about at 75% gear and thats an estimate from a player thats been playing since launch.
You're severely misquoting mythic.
They said the average gear difference between players from one tier to the next would be 20-30%. The said that the strength difference between an average geared player at top level versus a player in uber top gear would be as about 40%.
Warhammer has about a month before WotLK is launched. I think a lot of it will have to do with Lake Winterspring when it is launched in beta in a few weeks. There are already videos floating around of WOW's seige weapons and they look fun. My guess is that most serious WOW pvp'ers ( yes, I can say that with a straight face) will come to Warhammer on Sept 18 and try it. I also think they will have their eye on the WotLK beta. It will all come down to how polished Warhammer is during that first month. If the pvp is bugged, unpolished and imbalanced, I don't think most WOW players will risk falling behind in WotLK hoping Warhammer gets fixed. There is a huge advantage in WOW to getting to endgame pvp early. I honestly think Warhammer has the potential to maintain over a million subscribers if it is balanced when launched. I think WotLK will really limit how long Warhammer has to fix problems though.
The problem with this is its still going to be that boring game at level 80 after you run everything a few times. In my opinion all this content is too many years late for blizzard and WoW.
People got turned on to pvp by blizzard as an alternative to raiding and now even more want pvp and theres no better place to go for it then WAR.
WoW will forever be focused on pve, those pve guys that can raid all the time will stay if all of their friends stay in WoW.
Right now though all those pvpers are gonna be flocking to WAR with their friends and their friends, friends for massive pvp battles. Everyone see's WoW now as pve and WAR as pvp in my opinion.
Lets just say it doesnt matter what spec in WOW you are, you still need gear to be efficient in certain places. Mythic already officially stated gear will only be 20-30% of what your character is capable of. WoW right now is prolly about at 75% gear and thats an estimate from a player thats been playing since launch.
You're severely misquoting mythic.
They said the average gear difference between players from one tier to the next would be 20-30%. The said that the strength difference between an average geared player at top level versus a player in uber top gear would be as about 40%.
So i misread which leads to a misquote, the main point is there though and everyone that plays WOW knows that its mostly all about gear.
War is going to be very much less about gear obviously.
Lets just say it doesnt matter what spec in WOW you are, you still need gear to be efficient in certain places. Mythic already officially stated gear will only be 20-30% of what your character is capable of. WoW right now is prolly about at 75% gear and thats an estimate from a player thats been playing since launch.
75% is overstated. The difference between S4 gear (best you can get right now) and S2 gear (basically what anyone can get) is maybe 3-5% difference in DPS and Health. A good pvper can easily over come that vs an average player. It's really the same as class balance... in 1v1 fights, certain classes have an advantage against certain other classes, but a good player can always beat an average player.
In fact, I bet if you take a good pvper and put him in S1 gear (really outdated), he would win most of his matches even against handpicked gear and class of his opponent.
Lets just say it doesnt matter what spec in WOW you are, you still need gear to be efficient in certain places. Mythic already officially stated gear will only be 20-30% of what your character is capable of. WoW right now is prolly about at 75% gear and thats an estimate from a player thats been playing since launch.
You're severely misquoting mythic.
They said the average gear difference between players from one tier to the next would be 20-30%. The said that the strength difference between an average geared player at top level versus a player in uber top gear would be as about 40%.
So i misread which leads to a misquote, the main point is there though and everyone that plays WOW knows that its mostly all about gear.
War is going to be very much less about gear obviously.
if you think 40% is any less significant you're just fooling yourself.
The importance will be on how easy the gear is to get but to say the gear doesn't make a significant difference. That's just ignorance.
Warhammer has about a month before WotLK is launched. I think a lot of it will have to do with Lake Winterspring when it is launched in beta in a few weeks. There are already videos floating around of WOW's seige weapons and they look fun. My guess is that most serious WOW pvp'ers ( yes, I can say that with a straight face) will come to Warhammer on Sept 18 and try it. I also think they will have their eye on the WotLK beta. It will all come down to how polished Warhammer is during that first month. If the pvp is bugged, unpolished and imbalanced, I don't think most WOW players will risk falling behind in WotLK hoping Warhammer gets fixed. There is a huge advantage in WOW to getting to endgame pvp early. I honestly think Warhammer has the potential to maintain over a million subscribers if it is balanced when launched. I think WotLK will really limit how long Warhammer has to fix problems though.
The problem with this is its still going to be that boring game at level 80 after you run everything a few times. In my opinion all this content is too many years late for blizzard and WoW.
People got turned on to pvp by blizzard as an alternative to raiding and now even more want pvp and theres no better place to go for it then WAR.
WoW will forever be focused on pve, those pve guys that can raid all the time will stay if all of their friends stay in WoW.
Right now though all those pvpers are gonna be flocking to WAR with their friends and their friends, friends for massive pvp battles. Everyone see's WoW now as pve and WAR as pvp in my opinion.
I stated that probably all the serious pvpers will come to Warhammer on Sept 18... but they will also have their eye on Lake Wintergrasp, which will be the equivelant of an endgame tier in Warhammer. There will also be a new battleground. Don't forget that Blizzard is not full of dummies. All of those hardcore pvpers will be the ones getting beta keys for WotLK.
There is also the inertia factor. A player is more likely to stay in a game that he is familiar with and has an invested interest in. Look at all the terrible games out there kicking around with 50k subscribers who are so invested they will never leave.
The discussion between which is better at this point is a little silly, especially since not a lot of people have played WAR and the once that have can't talk about it.
Trying to convince a person that WAR is good when they hate it is like trying to convince an Giant's fan to now root for the Cowboys. War is not better or worst that WoW, it is different as PB said on a video, if WoW is the Beatles then WAR is the Rolling Stones and that is about it, there is a market for both games and I honestly belive that WAR will do good.
As simple as this, WoW is a PvE centric game with poor PvP (we all can agree on that at least) and WAR is PvP centric with some well thought PvE. that doesn't mean WAR is better is just means is a newer game with improved features and a different focus. every game that comes out brings out new things and if the developers are smart, will improve them, that is why WoW took good stuff from previous games and made it better. That is why now the WoW expansion will feature sieges, which wont be as good as WAR's just because the game doesn't have the base to do that, they can tweek the engine but it is not the same as building it from the ground up.
WoW is an old game and it is declining, that is why Blizzard is developing a new mmo, if WoW was still the top game in features they would just develope more expansions, another thing we have to realize is that better game doesn't always equals more subriptions. WoW is now for the mmo's what the Ipod is for the mp3 players, there might be better ones but evereybody wants an Ipod.
like everything, there will come a game, it might be war, it might be another game later on that will take the crown from WoW, that is also something that is bound to happen, maybe in 1 year maybe in 4, we just have to wait and see.
one thing is sure, WAR is a quality game with lot's of great features and it is VERY well thought out and designed and I can attest to that.
Lets just say it doesnt matter what spec in WOW you are, you still need gear to be efficient in certain places. Mythic already officially stated gear will only be 20-30% of what your character is capable of. WoW right now is prolly about at 75% gear and thats an estimate from a player thats been playing since launch.
75% is overstated. The difference between S4 gear (best you can get right now) and S2 gear (basically what anyone can get) is maybe 3-5% difference in DPS and Health. A good pvper can easily over come that vs an average player. It's really the same as class balance... in 1v1 fights, certain classes have an advantage against certain other classes, but a good player can always beat an average player.
In fact, I bet if you take a good pvper and put him in S1 gear (really outdated), he would win most of his matches even against handpicked gear and class of his opponent.
Its not overstated if you think about it.
Lets say you just hit level 70 on your mage and you have +450 fire damage (fire specced).
Since its S4 like you said if you just started pvping your facing other mages that have 248 base damage just off the S4 gear alone..+ resil,stam,intellect etc. you dont have a chance in the world.
Hell you could almost say its 100% gear based cause your not going to kill someone with s4 gear while you just hit 70...
Its all gear in WoW... i dont care how much skill you have because if someone rightfully obtained their s4 gear you arent going to kill them by yourself.
Warhammer has about a month before WotLK is launched. I think a lot of it will have to do with Lake Winterspring when it is launched in beta in a few weeks. There are already videos floating around of WOW's seige weapons and they look fun. My guess is that most serious WOW pvp'ers ( yes, I can say that with a straight face) will come to Warhammer on Sept 18 and try it. I also think they will have their eye on the WotLK beta. It will all come down to how polished Warhammer is during that first month. If the pvp is bugged, unpolished and imbalanced, I don't think most WOW players will risk falling behind in WotLK hoping Warhammer gets fixed. There is a huge advantage in WOW to getting to endgame pvp early. I honestly think Warhammer has the potential to maintain over a million subscribers if it is balanced when launched. I think WotLK will really limit how long Warhammer has to fix problems though.
The problem with this is its still going to be that boring game at level 80 after you run everything a few times. In my opinion all this content is too many years late for blizzard and WoW.
People got turned on to pvp by blizzard as an alternative to raiding and now even more want pvp and theres no better place to go for it then WAR.
WoW will forever be focused on pve, those pve guys that can raid all the time will stay if all of their friends stay in WoW.
Right now though all those pvpers are gonna be flocking to WAR with their friends and their friends, friends for massive pvp battles. Everyone see's WoW now as pve and WAR as pvp in my opinion.
I stated that probably all the serious pvpers will come to Warhammer on Sept 18... but they will also have their eye on Lake Wintergrasp, which will be the equivelant of an endgame tier in Warhammer. There will also be a new battleground. Don't forget that Blizzard is not full of dummies. All of those hardcore pvpers will be the ones getting beta keys for WotLK.
There is also the inertia factor. A player is more likely to stay in a game that he is familiar with and has an invested interest in. Look at all the terrible games out there kicking around with 50k subscribers who are so invested they will never leave.
No Blizzard aren t dummies , but i m willing to guess the new zone they re putting in will not be on par with WARs 4 th tier in fun or replayability. They just don t know what they re doing when it comes to pvp in WOW. If they did world pvp would have been good for along time now, not just because a far superior pvp(rvr) game is coming out soon.
After reading all the "ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING" threads, I thought I would add my own. Just for fun mind. The topic is serious, I am being serious and I think it's a legitimate issue of discussion.
Classes. There are only 4. WAIT, before you go off listing me all the different classes, how unique they are and that they fullfill their roles diferently from their arch type base...
There are still, only four classes in WAR. Tank, Light DPS, Ranged and Healer.
This is how your modern, WOWified user base is going to see the game. They won't see any difference between a Magus and Bright Wizard. A Shaman and a Warrior Priest. In their minds, the simplified "roles" of the classes will be all that they see. I was talking with a very good friend , trying to get him all fired up about WAR since I am in the beta. I didn't break NDA or anything, I just tried to exude enthusiasm and point him at the WAR sites.
His comment "But these classes, just reskins with different animations of the same four classes!"
That told me how and where, when the unwashed masses hit the WAR front in a month or so, are going to think. His first and only MMO is WoW. I think Mythic and the WAR fans are oing to have to be patient with the masss as they realize that there is far more to WAR then just "class roles".
And that i think, will be WAR's biggest stumbling block assuming launch is smooth and the client is stable. (The two biggest problems with all MMO's at launch btw)
There are not 4 classes, there are four main archetypes that the classes are based off of.
This however does not mean every class performs the same duties withing an archetype.
Warrior Priest - A deadly melee combatant as well as a healer. The Warrior Priest gains Righteous Fury through combat, then uses this fury to bestow blessings on his ally. The Warrior Priest must be close to the fight at all times to be most effective.
Disciple of Khaine - Desciples of Khaine are at their best when on the front lines. They are true masters of murder, harvesting the enemy's essence for use against them. Trained both in blades and the dark arts, the Disciple of Khaine uses his daggers to reap the very souls of his enemies, which he then in turn uses to bless his allies.
(Ranged Nukes + Support Magic + Balance (or) Gork and Mork Mechanic)
Archmage - Powerful wizards specializing in High Magic. The Archmage weaves his magic into destructive spells, conserving arcane energy with each spell cast. The Archmage must strive to achieve a balance between offensive and defensive powers to remain useful to his party.
Shaman - By calling down the wrath of the deities Gork and Mork, a Shaman is able to gain Waaagh! for use in battle. The more descruction a Shaman reigns down on the battlefield, the more Waaagh! he gains. The more Waaagh! the Shaman collects, the stronger his support magic becomes. A Shaman is at his best when balancing his offensive and defensive abilities.
(Buffer + Support + Runepriest Runes / Zealot Curses)
Runepriest - A powerful support class which uses Runes to heal as well as buff his party. The Runepriest binds his rune to an object or creature to await an action which will trigger its power. Once triggered, the runes might do damage to an enemy, protect an ally, or even heal an ally. The Runepriest is best when given time to prepare and buff his teammates.
Zealot - These spellcasters deal primarily in symbols. A Zealot can bless his allies with Marks, or curse his enemies with Harbringers. Using both his offensive and defensive symbols, a Zealot is able to most effectively magnify his power in support of his allies.
These pairings continue throughout the archetypes but each class has a unique twist.
So given the cut of 4 classes, if you look at the actual abilities of each class you will notice Warhammer will release with 20 unique classes.
The discussion between which is better at this point is a little silly, especially since not a lot of people have played WAR and the once that have can't talk about it. Trying to convince a person that WAR is good when they hate it is like trying to convince an Giant's fan to now root for the Cowboys. War is not better or worst that WoW, it is different as PB said on a video, if WoW is the Beatles then WAR is the Rolling Stones and that is about it, there is a market for both games and I honestly belive that WAR will do good. As simple as this, WoW is a PvE centric game with poor PvP (we all can agree on that at least) and WAR is PvP centric with some well thought PvE. that doesn't mean WAR is better is just means is a newer game with improved features and a different focus. every game that comes out brings out new things and if the developers are smart, will improve them, that is why WoW took good stuff from previous games and made it better. That is why now the WoW expansion will feature sieges, which wont be as good as WAR's just because the game doesn't have the base to do that, they can tweek the engine but it is not the same as building it from the ground up. WoW is an old game and it is declining, that is why Blizzard is developing a new mmo, if WoW was still the top game in features they would just develope more expansions, another thing we have to realize is that better game doesn't always equals more subriptions. WoW is now for the mmo's what the Ipod is for the mp3 players, there might be better ones but evereybody wants an Ipod. like everything, there will come a game, it might be war, it might be another game later on that will take the crown from WoW, that is also something that is bound to happen, maybe in 1 year maybe in 4, we just have to wait and see.
one thing is sure, WAR is a quality game with lot's of great features and it is VERY well thought out and designed and I can attest to that.
You keep saying Warhammer pvp is good and it has decent pve? You get all that from a closed beta? PvP is difficult to fine tune and balance is everything.
You also keep saying WOW is 'declining' when just two months ago, they announced they have reached 10.9 million subscribers. Not only that, but Vanilla WOW, The expansion AND the battle chest all are on the top 10 PC sales non-stop. Those are new players buying the game. WOW is still growing it's subscriber base.
You also make an assumption that pvp is bad in WOW. Again, play WOW and queue for the Arena or the battlegrounds. On every server there are 100's of players doing both at any given time. Right now, not even at endgame, I can queue for AV and get into a 40v40 game within 10 minutes. There are a lot of people who enjoy pvp in WOW.
And just because a game is new, doesn't mean it will 'improve' the features of an older game. Funcom did many of the same things that WOW did, but they didn't improve on anything except graphics.
What you fail to realize that each of these classes has a specific role or function in the game.
For example a squig herder is a ranged dps class. So is a Bright Wizard. But each of these classes are completely different with totally different abilities that accomplish the role of ranged dps.
For instance a Bright Wizard casts fireballs and ranged spells etc, while the Squig herder peppers the enemy from a distance with a ranged weapon, add his pet and the mastery path to mele .It is absolutely a totally unique class seperate from the classes that are considered ranged dps,
I don't understand your confusion regarding the 20 classes in the game.
Most mmos have tanks/ranged dps/healers/and mele dps these days but that is their function as a class or job if you will.
A class is for instance Ironbreaker or Warrior both are tanks but different in class name, abilities, spec paths or masteries if you will.
The excellent thing about Warhammer lore is that we are not seeing generic classes such as the Warrior class or a Cookie cutter Priest class in this game.
The 20 classes provided at launch will enable the players to fullfill the basic jobs of tank/ranged dps/healer/and mele dps.
So I hope I cleared up any confusion you had regarding what a class is and what a role or job of a class is.
Lastly a small note, a Paladin in Wow is a class, but it is considered a hybrid class because depending on gear and talent specs it can fullfil the role of either healer or tank. Ultimately the warrior is perhaps arguably the "Best" tank but in certain dungeons and instances the Paladin can tank or heal well.
No one I know who has played Wow would consider suggesting the Paladin and the Warrior are even close to comparison as a class.
The discussion between which is better at this point is a little silly, especially since not a lot of people have played WAR and the once that have can't talk about it. Trying to convince a person that WAR is good when they hate it is like trying to convince an Giant's fan to now root for the Cowboys. War is not better or worst that WoW, it is different as PB said on a video, if WoW is the Beatles then WAR is the Rolling Stones and that is about it, there is a market for both games and I honestly belive that WAR will do good. As simple as this, WoW is a PvE centric game with poor PvP (we all can agree on that at least) and WAR is PvP centric with some well thought PvE. that doesn't mean WAR is better is just means is a newer game with improved features and a different focus. every game that comes out brings out new things and if the developers are smart, will improve them, that is why WoW took good stuff from previous games and made it better. That is why now the WoW expansion will feature sieges, which wont be as good as WAR's just because the game doesn't have the base to do that, they can tweek the engine but it is not the same as building it from the ground up. WoW is an old game and it is declining, that is why Blizzard is developing a new mmo, if WoW was still the top game in features they would just develope more expansions, another thing we have to realize is that better game doesn't always equals more subriptions. WoW is now for the mmo's what the Ipod is for the mp3 players, there might be better ones but evereybody wants an Ipod. like everything, there will come a game, it might be war, it might be another game later on that will take the crown from WoW, that is also something that is bound to happen, maybe in 1 year maybe in 4, we just have to wait and see.
one thing is sure, WAR is a quality game with lot's of great features and it is VERY well thought out and designed and I can attest to that.
You keep saying Warhammer pvp is good and it has decent pve? You get all that from a closed beta? PvP is difficult to fine tune and balance is everything.
You also keep saying WOW is 'declining' when just two months ago, they announced they have reached 10.9 million subscribers. Not only that, but Vanilla WOW, The expansion AND the battle chest all are on the top 10 PC sales non-stop. Those are new players buying the game. WOW is still growing it's subscriber base.
You also make an assumption that pvp is bad in WOW. Again, play WOW and queue for the Arena or the battlegrounds. On every server there are 100's of players doing both at any given time. Right now, not even at endgame, I can queue for AV and get into a 40v40 game within 10 minutes. There are a lot of people who enjoy pvp in WOW.
And just because a game is new, doesn't mean it will 'improve' the features of an older game. Funcom did many of the same things that WOW did, but they didn't improve on anything except graphics.
Having played WOW and WARs beta a can assure you WARs pvp in the first 2 minutes to me was funner, more strategy, more meaning and just better in every way. I m not saying people don t pvp in WOW, of course they do, but if someone is into WOW for it s pvp first and pve second, they ll flock to WAR and stay i m sure.
Lets just say it doesnt matter what spec in WOW you are, you still need gear to be efficient in certain places. Mythic already officially stated gear will only be 20-30% of what your character is capable of. WoW right now is prolly about at 75% gear and thats an estimate from a player thats been playing since launch.
75% is overstated. The difference between S4 gear (best you can get right now) and S2 gear (basically what anyone can get) is maybe 3-5% difference in DPS and Health. A good pvper can easily over come that vs an average player. It's really the same as class balance... in 1v1 fights, certain classes have an advantage against certain other classes, but a good player can always beat an average player.
In fact, I bet if you take a good pvper and put him in S1 gear (really outdated), he would win most of his matches even against handpicked gear and class of his opponent.
Its not overstated if you think about it.
Lets say you just hit level 70 on your mage and you have +450 fire damage (fire specced).
Since its S4 like you said if you just started pvping your facing other mages that have 248 base damage just off the S4 gear alone..+ resil,stam,intellect etc. you dont have a chance in the world.
Hell you could almost say its 100% gear based cause your not going to kill someone with s4 gear while you just hit 70...
Its all gear in WoW... i dont care how much skill you have because if someone rightfully obtained their s4 gear you arent going to kill them by yourself.
Let's put that in perspective. If someone rightfully got S4 gear.. that means they've been pvping at lvl 70 for a few months. Do you really think a player that has just reached lvl 70 'should' beat that player. A new level 70 player hasn't even pvp'd with all of their skills. It's not about the gear.. its about a player with months of experience pvping vs a character with little experience.
Lets take that scenario and magically give the new lvl 70 character S4 gear.. so now they are equally geared. The experienced player will still destroy the inexperienced player 100% of the time... the only difference is it will take about 5 seconds longer ( 2spells). Even if you reverse it and give the experienced pvper crap gear, they will still beat an overly geared average player.
If games catered to the people who have only played WOW, every game coming out in the future would be a $60 day care center. The game would consist of matching up the circle with the circle cut-out and the same for the square and triangle. Followed by treats and nap time. How fun! I'm having trouble thinking of another archetype that would work, almost any playable class can be placed in one of those archetypes. Ranged melee perhaps?
thiefs would be nice.. but then again they stopped that long ago in UO cause the cry babies kept getting pick pocketed and well i guess they tried it again in Shadowbane, but that game ended up being niche.(sadly)
I have played wow since the OB and if you a class is green gear at 70 and the other 70 in s4 or equivalent gear theres no way the ungeared person is going to win very much.
The bonuses that dps and casters get from gear and the dps on a green weapon of 70 vs an s4 weapon are so uneven its not funny.
A green weapon for a mele class that is lv 70 could be around say 59 -64 dps roughly.
I'm not 100% sure on s4 stats seen a few but I know its 90 plus dps to 100.
The way dps is calculated in wow this difference in dps is like throwing a spear at a plane that is dropping an atomic bomb on you.
Comments
Too bad I cant explain how Wrong you are or I'd be breaking the NDA.
Once they lift it I will be back and show you.
But please do not give misleading information without first going thru the facts firsthand.
PS. I am a Beta Elder btw.
BBL
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
and you base this opinion off of ... what exactly?
But that can be said about WOW too. An affliction Warlock and a Destruction Warlock are almost completely different (they even need different gear). An Enhancement Shaman is completely different from an Elemental Shaman. A Moonkin Druid is completely different than a Feral Druid. A Shadow Priest is completely different than a Holy Priest.
While it is probably inaccurate to say that Warhammer only really has 6-8 classes.. it's just as inaccurate to say that WOW only has 9 classes.
The argument is "what do you consider a class" because I can come out and say that WoW or any other game for that matter only has 4 classes, Tank. healer. MeleeDPS and MagicDPS and I would be correct.
And that is exacly my point in my original post. If you hate WOW, you are going to say that wow has only 9 classes and Warhammer has 20+. If you are anti-warhammer, you are going to point out that many of Warhammers different classes are actually the same. It all comes down to what your bias is.
My point is simply that the difference between an elemental shaman and an enhancement shaman is probably going to be greater than the difference in two of the classes in Warhammer.
I will tell you that is wrong big time. As i said above 2 differently specced shamans as example play so different it s not even funny. I can t say anymore really except you re wrong
Ranged DPS = Magic DPS to be honest.
Umm.... while you are correct that Mythic had 4 essential archetypes that they worked with, I just don't see how a Battle Priest and an Archmage could play the same(both are healers for their respective races).
Lets just say it doesnt matter what spec in WOW you are, you still need gear to be efficient in certain places.
Mythic already officially stated gear will only be 20-30% of what your character is capable of.
WoW right now is prolly about at 75% gear and thats an estimate from a player thats been playing since launch.
Warhammer has about a month before WotLK is launched. I think a lot of it will have to do with Lake Winterspring when it is launched in beta in a few weeks. There are already videos floating around of WOW's seige weapons and they look fun. My guess is that most serious WOW pvp'ers ( yes, I can say that with a straight face) will come to Warhammer on Sept 18 and try it. I also think they will have their eye on the WotLK beta.
It will all come down to how polished Warhammer is during that first month. If the pvp is bugged, unpolished and imbalanced, I don't think most WOW players will risk falling behind in WotLK hoping Warhammer gets fixed. There is a huge advantage in WOW to getting to endgame pvp early.
I honestly think Warhammer has the potential to maintain over a million subscribers if it is balanced when launched. I think WotLK will really limit how long Warhammer has to fix problems though.
There's end-game PvP? That's a first. I've been playing WoW since launch (except only recently as I've taken a break)...and PvP was hardly an end-game trait...pre and post BC.
You're severely misquoting mythic.
They said the average gear difference between players from one tier to the next would be 20-30%. The said that the strength difference between an average geared player at top level versus a player in uber top gear would be as about 40%.
The problem with this is its still going to be that boring game at level 80 after you run everything a few times. In my opinion all this content is too many years late for blizzard and WoW.
People got turned on to pvp by blizzard as an alternative to raiding and now even more want pvp and theres no better place to go for it then WAR.
WoW will forever be focused on pve, those pve guys that can raid all the time will stay if all of their friends stay in WoW.
Right now though all those pvpers are gonna be flocking to WAR with their friends and their friends, friends for massive pvp battles. Everyone see's WoW now as pve and WAR as pvp in my opinion.
You're severely misquoting mythic.
They said the average gear difference between players from one tier to the next would be 20-30%. The said that the strength difference between an average geared player at top level versus a player in uber top gear would be as about 40%.
So i misread which leads to a misquote, the main point is there though and everyone that plays WOW knows that its mostly all about gear.
War is going to be very much less about gear obviously.
75% is overstated. The difference between S4 gear (best you can get right now) and S2 gear (basically what anyone can get) is maybe 3-5% difference in DPS and Health. A good pvper can easily over come that vs an average player. It's really the same as class balance... in 1v1 fights, certain classes have an advantage against certain other classes, but a good player can always beat an average player.
In fact, I bet if you take a good pvper and put him in S1 gear (really outdated), he would win most of his matches even against handpicked gear and class of his opponent.
You're severely misquoting mythic.
They said the average gear difference between players from one tier to the next would be 20-30%. The said that the strength difference between an average geared player at top level versus a player in uber top gear would be as about 40%.
So i misread which leads to a misquote, the main point is there though and everyone that plays WOW knows that its mostly all about gear.
War is going to be very much less about gear obviously.
if you think 40% is any less significant you're just fooling yourself.
The importance will be on how easy the gear is to get but to say the gear doesn't make a significant difference. That's just ignorance.
The problem with this is its still going to be that boring game at level 80 after you run everything a few times. In my opinion all this content is too many years late for blizzard and WoW.
People got turned on to pvp by blizzard as an alternative to raiding and now even more want pvp and theres no better place to go for it then WAR.
WoW will forever be focused on pve, those pve guys that can raid all the time will stay if all of their friends stay in WoW.
Right now though all those pvpers are gonna be flocking to WAR with their friends and their friends, friends for massive pvp battles. Everyone see's WoW now as pve and WAR as pvp in my opinion.
I stated that probably all the serious pvpers will come to Warhammer on Sept 18... but they will also have their eye on Lake Wintergrasp, which will be the equivelant of an endgame tier in Warhammer. There will also be a new battleground. Don't forget that Blizzard is not full of dummies. All of those hardcore pvpers will be the ones getting beta keys for WotLK.
There is also the inertia factor. A player is more likely to stay in a game that he is familiar with and has an invested interest in. Look at all the terrible games out there kicking around with 50k subscribers who are so invested they will never leave.
The discussion between which is better at this point is a little silly, especially since not a lot of people have played WAR and the once that have can't talk about it.
Trying to convince a person that WAR is good when they hate it is like trying to convince an Giant's fan to now root for the Cowboys. War is not better or worst that WoW, it is different as PB said on a video, if WoW is the Beatles then WAR is the Rolling Stones and that is about it, there is a market for both games and I honestly belive that WAR will do good.
As simple as this, WoW is a PvE centric game with poor PvP (we all can agree on that at least) and WAR is PvP centric with some well thought PvE. that doesn't mean WAR is better is just means is a newer game with improved features and a different focus. every game that comes out brings out new things and if the developers are smart, will improve them, that is why WoW took good stuff from previous games and made it better. That is why now the WoW expansion will feature sieges, which wont be as good as WAR's just because the game doesn't have the base to do that, they can tweek the engine but it is not the same as building it from the ground up.
WoW is an old game and it is declining, that is why Blizzard is developing a new mmo, if WoW was still the top game in features they would just develope more expansions, another thing we have to realize is that better game doesn't always equals more subriptions. WoW is now for the mmo's what the Ipod is for the mp3 players, there might be better ones but evereybody wants an Ipod.
like everything, there will come a game, it might be war, it might be another game later on that will take the crown from WoW, that is also something that is bound to happen, maybe in 1 year maybe in 4, we just have to wait and see.
one thing is sure, WAR is a quality game with lot's of great features and it is VERY well thought out and designed and I can attest to that.
75% is overstated. The difference between S4 gear (best you can get right now) and S2 gear (basically what anyone can get) is maybe 3-5% difference in DPS and Health. A good pvper can easily over come that vs an average player. It's really the same as class balance... in 1v1 fights, certain classes have an advantage against certain other classes, but a good player can always beat an average player.
In fact, I bet if you take a good pvper and put him in S1 gear (really outdated), he would win most of his matches even against handpicked gear and class of his opponent.
Its not overstated if you think about it.
Lets say you just hit level 70 on your mage and you have +450 fire damage (fire specced).
Since its S4 like you said if you just started pvping your facing other mages that have 248 base damage just off the S4 gear alone..+ resil,stam,intellect etc. you dont have a chance in the world.
Hell you could almost say its 100% gear based cause your not going to kill someone with s4 gear while you just hit 70...
Its all gear in WoW... i dont care how much skill you have because if someone rightfully obtained their s4 gear you arent going to kill them by yourself.
The problem with this is its still going to be that boring game at level 80 after you run everything a few times. In my opinion all this content is too many years late for blizzard and WoW.
People got turned on to pvp by blizzard as an alternative to raiding and now even more want pvp and theres no better place to go for it then WAR.
WoW will forever be focused on pve, those pve guys that can raid all the time will stay if all of their friends stay in WoW.
Right now though all those pvpers are gonna be flocking to WAR with their friends and their friends, friends for massive pvp battles. Everyone see's WoW now as pve and WAR as pvp in my opinion.
I stated that probably all the serious pvpers will come to Warhammer on Sept 18... but they will also have their eye on Lake Wintergrasp, which will be the equivelant of an endgame tier in Warhammer. There will also be a new battleground. Don't forget that Blizzard is not full of dummies. All of those hardcore pvpers will be the ones getting beta keys for WotLK.
There is also the inertia factor. A player is more likely to stay in a game that he is familiar with and has an invested interest in. Look at all the terrible games out there kicking around with 50k subscribers who are so invested they will never leave.
No Blizzard aren t dummies , but i m willing to guess the new zone they re putting in will not be on par with WARs 4 th tier in fun or replayability. They just don t know what they re doing when it comes to pvp in WOW. If they did world pvp would have been good for along time now, not just because a far superior pvp(rvr) game is coming out soon.
There are not 4 classes, there are four main archetypes that the classes are based off of.
This however does not mean every class performs the same duties withing an archetype.
Lets look at the Healer/Support Classes.
(Melee Attacks + Support Magic + Righteous Fury (or) Disciple Mechanic)
Warrior Priest - A deadly melee combatant as well as a healer. The Warrior Priest gains Righteous Fury through combat, then uses this fury to bestow blessings on his ally. The Warrior Priest must be close to the fight at all times to be most effective.
Disciple of Khaine - Desciples of Khaine are at their best when on the front lines. They are true masters of murder, harvesting the enemy's essence for use against them. Trained both in blades and the dark arts, the Disciple of Khaine uses his daggers to reap the very souls of his enemies, which he then in turn uses to bless his allies.
(Ranged Nukes + Support Magic + Balance (or) Gork and Mork Mechanic)
Archmage - Powerful wizards specializing in High Magic. The Archmage weaves his magic into destructive spells, conserving arcane energy with each spell cast. The Archmage must strive to achieve a balance between offensive and defensive powers to remain useful to his party.
Shaman - By calling down the wrath of the deities Gork and Mork, a Shaman is able to gain Waaagh! for use in battle. The more descruction a Shaman reigns down on the battlefield, the more Waaagh! he gains. The more Waaagh! the Shaman collects, the stronger his support magic becomes. A Shaman is at his best when balancing his offensive and defensive abilities.
(Buffer + Support + Runepriest Runes / Zealot Curses)
Runepriest - A powerful support class which uses Runes to heal as well as buff his party. The Runepriest binds his rune to an object or creature to await an action which will trigger its power. Once triggered, the runes might do damage to an enemy, protect an ally, or even heal an ally. The Runepriest is best when given time to prepare and buff his teammates.
Zealot - These spellcasters deal primarily in symbols. A Zealot can bless his allies with Marks, or curse his enemies with Harbringers. Using both his offensive and defensive symbols, a Zealot is able to most effectively magnify his power in support of his allies.
These pairings continue throughout the archetypes but each class has a unique twist.
So given the cut of 4 classes, if you look at the actual abilities of each class you will notice Warhammer will release with 20 unique classes.
STOP WHINING!
You keep saying Warhammer pvp is good and it has decent pve? You get all that from a closed beta? PvP is difficult to fine tune and balance is everything.
You also keep saying WOW is 'declining' when just two months ago, they announced they have reached 10.9 million subscribers. Not only that, but Vanilla WOW, The expansion AND the battle chest all are on the top 10 PC sales non-stop. Those are new players buying the game. WOW is still growing it's subscriber base.
You also make an assumption that pvp is bad in WOW. Again, play WOW and queue for the Arena or the battlegrounds. On every server there are 100's of players doing both at any given time. Right now, not even at endgame, I can queue for AV and get into a 40v40 game within 10 minutes. There are a lot of people who enjoy pvp in WOW.
And just because a game is new, doesn't mean it will 'improve' the features of an older game. Funcom did many of the same things that WOW did, but they didn't improve on anything except graphics.
You are incorrect, there are 20 classes in WAR.
What you fail to realize that each of these classes has a specific role or function in the game.
For example a squig herder is a ranged dps class. So is a Bright Wizard. But each of these classes are completely different with totally different abilities that accomplish the role of ranged dps.
For instance a Bright Wizard casts fireballs and ranged spells etc, while the Squig herder peppers the enemy from a distance with a ranged weapon, add his pet and the mastery path to mele .It is absolutely a totally unique class seperate from the classes that are considered ranged dps,
I don't understand your confusion regarding the 20 classes in the game.
Most mmos have tanks/ranged dps/healers/and mele dps these days but that is their function as a class or job if you will.
A class is for instance Ironbreaker or Warrior both are tanks but different in class name, abilities, spec paths or masteries if you will.
The excellent thing about Warhammer lore is that we are not seeing generic classes such as the Warrior class or a Cookie cutter Priest class in this game.
The 20 classes provided at launch will enable the players to fullfill the basic jobs of tank/ranged dps/healer/and mele dps.
So I hope I cleared up any confusion you had regarding what a class is and what a role or job of a class is.
Lastly a small note, a Paladin in Wow is a class, but it is considered a hybrid class because depending on gear and talent specs it can fullfil the role of either healer or tank. Ultimately the warrior is perhaps arguably the "Best" tank but in certain dungeons and instances the Paladin can tank or heal well.
No one I know who has played Wow would consider suggesting the Paladin and the Warrior are even close to comparison as a class.
You keep saying Warhammer pvp is good and it has decent pve? You get all that from a closed beta? PvP is difficult to fine tune and balance is everything.
You also keep saying WOW is 'declining' when just two months ago, they announced they have reached 10.9 million subscribers. Not only that, but Vanilla WOW, The expansion AND the battle chest all are on the top 10 PC sales non-stop. Those are new players buying the game. WOW is still growing it's subscriber base.
You also make an assumption that pvp is bad in WOW. Again, play WOW and queue for the Arena or the battlegrounds. On every server there are 100's of players doing both at any given time. Right now, not even at endgame, I can queue for AV and get into a 40v40 game within 10 minutes. There are a lot of people who enjoy pvp in WOW.
And just because a game is new, doesn't mean it will 'improve' the features of an older game. Funcom did many of the same things that WOW did, but they didn't improve on anything except graphics.
Having played WOW and WARs beta a can assure you WARs pvp in the first 2 minutes to me was funner, more strategy, more meaning and just better in every way. I m not saying people don t pvp in WOW, of course they do, but if someone is into WOW for it s pvp first and pve second, they ll flock to WAR and stay i m sure.
75% is overstated. The difference between S4 gear (best you can get right now) and S2 gear (basically what anyone can get) is maybe 3-5% difference in DPS and Health. A good pvper can easily over come that vs an average player. It's really the same as class balance... in 1v1 fights, certain classes have an advantage against certain other classes, but a good player can always beat an average player.
In fact, I bet if you take a good pvper and put him in S1 gear (really outdated), he would win most of his matches even against handpicked gear and class of his opponent.
Its not overstated if you think about it.
Lets say you just hit level 70 on your mage and you have +450 fire damage (fire specced).
Since its S4 like you said if you just started pvping your facing other mages that have 248 base damage just off the S4 gear alone..+ resil,stam,intellect etc. you dont have a chance in the world.
Hell you could almost say its 100% gear based cause your not going to kill someone with s4 gear while you just hit 70...
Its all gear in WoW... i dont care how much skill you have because if someone rightfully obtained their s4 gear you arent going to kill them by yourself.
Let's put that in perspective. If someone rightfully got S4 gear.. that means they've been pvping at lvl 70 for a few months. Do you really think a player that has just reached lvl 70 'should' beat that player. A new level 70 player hasn't even pvp'd with all of their skills. It's not about the gear.. its about a player with months of experience pvping vs a character with little experience.
Lets take that scenario and magically give the new lvl 70 character S4 gear.. so now they are equally geared. The experienced player will still destroy the inexperienced player 100% of the time... the only difference is it will take about 5 seconds longer ( 2spells). Even if you reverse it and give the experienced pvper crap gear, they will still beat an overly geared average player.
thiefs would be nice.. but then again they stopped that long ago in UO cause the cry babies kept getting pick pocketed and well i guess they tried it again in Shadowbane, but that game ended up being niche.(sadly)
OK GUYS LETS STOP MENTIONING WOW FOR A SECOND HERE HEHE
I totally disagree in wow gear = win.
I have played wow since the OB and if you a class is green gear at 70 and the other 70 in s4 or equivalent gear theres no way the ungeared person is going to win very much.
The bonuses that dps and casters get from gear and the dps on a green weapon of 70 vs an s4 weapon are so uneven its not funny.
A green weapon for a mele class that is lv 70 could be around say 59 -64 dps roughly.
I'm not 100% sure on s4 stats seen a few but I know its 90 plus dps to 100.
The way dps is calculated in wow this difference in dps is like throwing a spear at a plane that is dropping an atomic bomb on you.