You keep saying Warhammer pvp is good and it has decent pve? You get all that from a closed beta? PvP is difficult to fine tune and balance is everything. You also keep saying WOW is 'declining' when just two months ago, they announced they have reached 10.9 million subscribers. Not only that, but Vanilla WOW, The expansion AND the battle chest all are on the top 10 PC sales non-stop. Those are new players buying the game. WOW is still growing it's subscriber base. You also make an assumption that pvp is bad in WOW. Again, play WOW and queue for the Arena or the battlegrounds. On every server there are 100's of players doing both at any given time. Right now, not even at endgame, I can queue for AV and get into a 40v40 game within 10 minutes. There are a lot of people who enjoy pvp in WOW. And just because a game is new, doesn't mean it will 'improve' the features of an older game. Funcom did many of the same things that WOW did, but they didn't improve on anything except graphics.
The proposed PvP content is in WAR is good. Whether it succeeds or not depends on how good they follow through, good gameplay and stable servers.
WoW's endgame PvP content is limited to 4 BGs and arena. It is limited, instanced, item centric, repetitive and lacks purposeful world PvP. Many people who PvP in WoW do it because there are lack of options out there now. I know many who quit because they did not like the PvP content. It's missing the "massive" in MMO PvP.
WoW missed out on the whole Horde vs. Alliance possiblities of large scale world battles which mattered for any reason other than item farming. There is really no point to capture an enemies main city in WoW or even attack it other than fun. There is no PvP progression or point to world PvP since the best gear is obtained through instancing.
You're in the middle of a large scale all out bloody war between the horde and alliance battling for the survival with allies forced to band together because of the mutual threat. This could have been such a good PvP game with epic battles. Instead, it became an instanced item grindfest with people only caring about gear and not about any progression of their side.
WARs PvP ideas are good, core PvP-centric balancing, PvP levelling and progression, PvP quests, capturable and claimable keeps and cities, PvE and PvP contributing to the RvR effort, many more scenarios (BGs) than WoW on release, more objective based endgame world PvP.
The ideas are good, which is what most people are saying. The implementation of the idea and the quality of gameplay will ultimatle determine the success of the game.
WARs task is easy....
1) provide more PvP content than 4BGs and arena.
2) any form of endgame purposeful world PvP objectives
3) quality gameplay + stable servers
WAR has a good chance if they do all these things right. On paper, it's PvP is already far superior to WoWs.
Isn't it just so much fun to judge a game before launch? How about we wait and see how it turns out. People will like this game and others won't. That is a simple fact. It's no use trying to decide whether a game is fun or not unless you've played it already.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
Lets just say it doesnt matter what spec in WOW you are, you still need gear to be efficient in certain places. Mythic already officially stated gear will only be 20-30% of what your character is capable of. WoW right now is prolly about at 75% gear and thats an estimate from a player thats been playing since launch.
75% is overstated. The difference between S4 gear (best you can get right now) and S2 gear (basically what anyone can get) is maybe 3-5% difference in DPS and Health. A good pvper can easily over come that vs an average player. It's really the same as class balance... in 1v1 fights, certain classes have an advantage against certain other classes, but a good player can always beat an average player.
In fact, I bet if you take a good pvper and put him in S1 gear (really outdated), he would win most of his matches even against handpicked gear and class of his opponent.
Its not overstated if you think about it.
Lets say you just hit level 70 on your mage and you have +450 fire damage (fire specced).
Since its S4 like you said if you just started pvping your facing other mages that have 248 base damage just off the S4 gear alone..+ resil,stam,intellect etc. you dont have a chance in the world.
Hell you could almost say its 100% gear based cause your not going to kill someone with s4 gear while you just hit 70...
Its all gear in WoW... i dont care how much skill you have because if someone rightfully obtained their s4 gear you arent going to kill them by yourself.
Let's put that in perspective. If someone rightfully got S4 gear.. that means they've been pvping at lvl 70 for a few months. Do you really think a player that has just reached lvl 70 'should' beat that player. A new level 70 player hasn't even pvp'd with all of their skills. It's not about the gear.. its about a player with months of experience pvping vs a character with little experience.
Lets take that scenario and magically give the new lvl 70 character S4 gear.. so now they are equally geared. The experienced player will still destroy the inexperienced player 100% of the time... the only difference is it will take about 5 seconds longer ( 2spells). Even if you reverse it and give the experienced pvper crap gear, they will still beat an overly geared average player.
Let's say you hit level 70 and you wanted to prove that it takes skill to win, not gear, so you stay in greens and blues for months while you play. You go up against other 70s with S4, raid epics, etc. You get your ass handed to you over and over but you're so diluted that skill is more important than gear that you never upgrade anything.
You could really try that and tell us the results. There's absolutely no denying that WoW PvP is based on gear much more than skill.
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
You keep saying Warhammer pvp is good and it has decent pve? You get all that from a closed beta? PvP is difficult to fine tune and balance is everything. You also keep saying WOW is 'declining' when just two months ago, they announced they have reached 10.9 million subscribers. Not only that, but Vanilla WOW, The expansion AND the battle chest all are on the top 10 PC sales non-stop. Those are new players buying the game. WOW is still growing it's subscriber base. You also make an assumption that pvp is bad in WOW. Again, play WOW and queue for the Arena or the battlegrounds. On every server there are 100's of players doing both at any given time. Right now, not even at endgame, I can queue for AV and get into a 40v40 game within 10 minutes. There are a lot of people who enjoy pvp in WOW. And just because a game is new, doesn't mean it will 'improve' the features of an older game. Funcom did many of the same things that WOW did, but they didn't improve on anything except graphics.
The proposed PvP content is in WAR is good. Whether it succeeds or not depends on how good they follow through, good gameplay and stable servers.
WoW's endgame PvP content is limited to 4 BGs and arena. It is limited, instanced, item centric, repetitive and lacks purposeful world PvP. Many people who PvP in WoW do it because there are lack of options out there now. I know many who quit because they did not like the PvP content. It's missing the "massive" in MMO PvP.
WoW missed out on the whole Horde vs. Alliance possiblities of large scale world battles which mattered for any reason other than item farming. There is really no point to capture an enemies main city in WoW or even attack it other than fun. There is no PvP progression or point to world PvP since the best gear is obtained through instancing.
You're in the middle of a large scale all out bloody war between the horde and alliance battling for the survival with allies forced to band together because of the mutual threat. This could have been such a good PvP game with epic battles. Instead, it became an instanced item grindfest with people only caring about gear and not about any progression of their side.
WARs PvP ideas are good, core PvP-centric balancing, PvP levelling and progression, PvP quests, capturable and claimable keeps and cities, PvE and PvP contributing to the RvR effort, many more scenarios (BGs) than WoW on release, more objective based endgame world PvP.
The ideas are good, which is what most people are saying. The implementation of the idea and the quality of gameplay will ultimatle determine the success of the game.
WARs task is easy....
1) provide more PvP content than 4BGs and arena.
2) any form of endgame purposeful world PvP objectives
3) quality gameplay + stable servers
WAR has a good chance if they do all these things right. On paper, it's PvP is already far superior to WoWs.
But at the same time, probably 75% of WOW players just want to PvE and don't want the fact that their 'teammates' lost to negatively impact their gameplay. " What do you mean I can't do the endgame dungeons because my side is getting crushed in pvp". For every negative things you say about pvp in WOW ( it has no overall consequence.. there is no horde vs allaince).. I will show a negative part of pve that having those features will cause in Warhammer.
Also.. just because warhammer pvp is more involved, does not mean WOW pvp isn't good. I personally love doing AV. Yes, I'm looking forward to Warhammer PvP.. but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy WOW pvp. I just don't understand why people think WOW is so terrible when 4 years after launch, it subscriber base is still growing and people queue nonstop to pvp.
If WAR is so much like WoW, yet so many people can't get enough of WoW... then why not consider WAR for the aspect of it being more than any expansion that WoW/Blizz is ever going to offer for that game? lol
New art. New zones. New quests. New gear. New races (kinda). New classes. New pvp. New raids. New mounts.
You get the point.
I'm not done with WoW, but the 'burning crusade' nearly burned me out. I can only roll so many alts and repeat zones/quests so many times before I'm absolutely bored to tears.
WAR will be a change of pace. If nothing else, there will be a learning curve involved. Some people will welcome the challenge of trying to pick up a new game and trying to figure it out... and be open to differences from WoW. Others won't be so open and every little thing that WAR does differently from WoW will be criticized to the finest degree.
WAR can't get here fast enough. Otherwise, what will I do in WoW come Q4? Level my 70's to 80... level my Death Knights... and then PvP-BG/Arena, rep grind, or RAID... and wait for expansion?
Playing Devil's advocate here... If WAR is so much like WoW, yet so many people can't get enough of WoW... then why not consider WAR for the aspect of it being more than any expansion that WoW/Blizz is ever going to offer for that game? lol New art. New zones. New quests. New gear. New races (kinda). New classes. New pvp. New raids. New mounts. You get the point. I'm not done with WoW, but the 'burning crusade' nearly burned me out. I can only roll so many alts and repeat zones/quests so many times before I'm absolutely bored to tears. WAR will be a change of pace. If nothing else, there will be a learning curve involved. Some people will welcome the challenge of trying to pick up a new game and trying to figure it out... and be open to differences from WoW. Others won't be so open and every little thing that WAR does differently from WoW will be criticized to the finest degree. WAR can't get here fast enough. Otherwise, what will I do in WoW come Q4? Level my 70's to 80... level my Death Knights... and then PvP-BG/Arena, rep grind, or RAID... and wait for expansion?
I don't know but one thing for sure that Blizzard had wish that they include goblin race instead of that pew pew race.
Playing Devil's advocate here... If WAR is so much like WoW, yet so many people can't get enough of WoW... then why not consider WAR for the aspect of it being more than any expansion that WoW/Blizz is ever going to offer for that game? lol New art. New zones. New quests. New gear. New races (kinda). New classes. New pvp. New raids. New mounts. You get the point. I'm not done with WoW, but the 'burning crusade' nearly burned me out. I can only roll so many alts and repeat zones/quests so many times before I'm absolutely bored to tears. WAR will be a change of pace. If nothing else, there will be a learning curve involved. Some people will welcome the challenge of trying to pick up a new game and trying to figure it out... and be open to differences from WoW. Others won't be so open and every little thing that WAR does differently from WoW will be criticized to the finest degree. WAR can't get here fast enough. Otherwise, what will I do in WoW come Q4? Level my 70's to 80... level my Death Knights... and then PvP-BG/Arena, rep grind, or RAID... and wait for expansion?
I don't know but one thing for sure that Blizzard had wish that they include goblin race instead of that pew pew race.
We should be able to play Football in WAR with WoW Gnomes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
The discussion between which is better at this point is a little silly, especially since not a lot of people have played WAR and the once that have can't talk about it. Trying to convince a person that WAR is good when they hate it is like trying to convince an Giant's fan to now root for the Cowboys. War is not better or worst that WoW, it is different as PB said on a video, if WoW is the Beatles then WAR is the Rolling Stones and that is about it, there is a market for both games and I honestly belive that WAR will do good. As simple as this, WoW is a PvE centric game with poor PvP (we all can agree on that at least) and WAR is PvP centric with some well thought PvE. that doesn't mean WAR is better is just means is a newer game with improved features and a different focus. every game that comes out brings out new things and if the developers are smart, will improve them, that is why WoW took good stuff from previous games and made it better. That is why now the WoW expansion will feature sieges, which wont be as good as WAR's just because the game doesn't have the base to do that, they can tweek the engine but it is not the same as building it from the ground up. WoW is an old game and it is declining, that is why Blizzard is developing a new mmo, if WoW was still the top game in features they would just develope more expansions, another thing we have to realize is that better game doesn't always equals more subriptions. WoW is now for the mmo's what the Ipod is for the mp3 players, there might be better ones but evereybody wants an Ipod. like everything, there will come a game, it might be war, it might be another game later on that will take the crown from WoW, that is also something that is bound to happen, maybe in 1 year maybe in 4, we just have to wait and see.
one thing is sure, WAR is a quality game with lot's of great features and it is VERY well thought out and designed and I can attest to that.
You keep saying Warhammer pvp is good and it has decent pve? You get all that from a closed beta? PvP is difficult to fine tune and balance is everything.
You also keep saying WOW is 'declining' when just two months ago, they announced they have reached 10.9 million subscribers. Not only that, but Vanilla WOW, The expansion AND the battle chest all are on the top 10 PC sales non-stop. Those are new players buying the game. WOW is still growing it's subscriber base.
You also make an assumption that pvp is bad in WOW. Again, play WOW and queue for the Arena or the battlegrounds. On every server there are 100's of players doing both at any given time. Right now, not even at endgame, I can queue for AV and get into a 40v40 game within 10 minutes. There are a lot of people who enjoy pvp in WOW.
And just because a game is new, doesn't mean it will 'improve' the features of an older game. Funcom did many of the same things that WOW did, but they didn't improve on anything except graphics.
if WoW wasn't in the decline, why is blizzard working on the next gen MMO?? look at the demografic of the subscribers, WoW is gaining grounds in a BIG way in Asia but loosing people in America and Europe... some countries with a lot of coumsumers are barely getting the game, so yes, it is still growing in some parts because they are getting the game 2 or 3 years after, so it is new for them.
I am not making an assumtpion they pvp is bad in WoW, I know it is bad, I hated it every time and most people see that the strong part in WoW is PvE. PvP is meaningless, you do it for gear only, nothing else. not for the fun... I would love to see how many people do WSG for fun or AB? how many people are AFK all the time and are just there to get the badges? or you are going to tell me that people don't do that?
and C'mon, AV is PvE with PvP in it, in 90% of the cases everybody rushes towards the other side's towers and there is random PvP since everybody wants to kill the other's side NPC boss to get the honor, so in the end, you have most of players at the offensive and just the ones left behind defending but get overpowered all the time, AV is in short a PvE race to see who kills the end boss first..
Like I said, not because people do it it means it ia good or great... most people play WoW for the PvE, and by most I mean about 90%, that is why they have updates to dungeons ALL the time but they have the same BG since the inroduced them...well, they added 1 in BC compared to how many dungeons? you just said it yourself, PvP in WoW is arena and BG... what happened to world pvp? that doesn't happen or is sporadic at best.
If you like WoW good for you and I hope you enjoy it for many years to come, if you like PvP in WoW again good for you and I hope you keep enjoying it. Some people want something different, that is why we live in a free society and there is a free market in which everybody can choose what they like.
Please don't compare WAR to AoC, like you said, they made a bad copy of WoW in a different setting with better graphics that is all. WAR is not that and they did improve on WoW in many things, I have seen it, the guild system is amazing, PvP means something, not just gear, you know that if you conquer something it will matter.
The discussion between which is better at this point is a little silly, especially since not a lot of people have played WAR and the once that have can't talk about it. Trying to convince a person that WAR is good when they hate it is like trying to convince an Giant's fan to now root for the Cowboys. War is not better or worst that WoW, it is different as PB said on a video, if WoW is the Beatles then WAR is the Rolling Stones and that is about it, there is a market for both games and I honestly belive that WAR will do good. As simple as this, WoW is a PvE centric game with poor PvP (we all can agree on that at least) and WAR is PvP centric with some well thought PvE. that doesn't mean WAR is better is just means is a newer game with improved features and a different focus. every game that comes out brings out new things and if the developers are smart, will improve them, that is why WoW took good stuff from previous games and made it better. That is why now the WoW expansion will feature sieges, which wont be as good as WAR's just because the game doesn't have the base to do that, they can tweek the engine but it is not the same as building it from the ground up. WoW is an old game and it is declining, that is why Blizzard is developing a new mmo, if WoW was still the top game in features they would just develope more expansions, another thing we have to realize is that better game doesn't always equals more subriptions. WoW is now for the mmo's what the Ipod is for the mp3 players, there might be better ones but evereybody wants an Ipod. like everything, there will come a game, it might be war, it might be another game later on that will take the crown from WoW, that is also something that is bound to happen, maybe in 1 year maybe in 4, we just have to wait and see.
one thing is sure, WAR is a quality game with lot's of great features and it is VERY well thought out and designed and I can attest to that.
You keep saying Warhammer pvp is good and it has decent pve? You get all that from a closed beta? PvP is difficult to fine tune and balance is everything.
You also keep saying WOW is 'declining' when just two months ago, they announced they have reached 10.9 million subscribers. Not only that, but Vanilla WOW, The expansion AND the battle chest all are on the top 10 PC sales non-stop. Those are new players buying the game. WOW is still growing it's subscriber base.
You also make an assumption that pvp is bad in WOW. Again, play WOW and queue for the Arena or the battlegrounds. On every server there are 100's of players doing both at any given time. Right now, not even at endgame, I can queue for AV and get into a 40v40 game within 10 minutes. There are a lot of people who enjoy pvp in WOW.
And just because a game is new, doesn't mean it will 'improve' the features of an older game. Funcom did many of the same things that WOW did, but they didn't improve on anything except graphics.
if WoW wasn't in the decline, why is blizzard working on the next gen MMO?? look at the demografic of the subscribers, WoW is gaining grounds in a BIG way in Asia but loosing people in America and Europe... some countries with a lot of coumsumers are barely getting the game, so yes, it is still growing in some parts because they are getting the game 2 or 3 years after, so it is new for them.
I am not making an assumtpion they pvp is bad in WoW, I know it is bad, I hated it every time and most people see that the strong part in WoW is PvE. PvP is meaningless, you do it for gear only, nothing else. not for the fun... I would love to see how many people do WSG for fun or AB? how many people are AFK all the time and are just there to get the badges? or you are going to tell me that people don't do that?
and C'mon, AV is PvE with PvP in it, in 90% of the cases everybody rushes towards the other side's towers and there is random PvP since everybody wants to kill the other's side NPC boss to get the honor, so in the end, you have most of players at the offensive and just the ones left behind defending but get overpowered all the time, AV is in short a PvE race to see who kills the end boss first..
Like I said, not because people do it it means it ia good or great... most people play WoW for the PvE, and by most I mean about 90%, that is why they have updates to dungeons ALL the time but they have the same BG since the inroduced them...well, they added 1 in BC compared to how many dungeons? you just said it yourself, PvP in WoW is arena and BG... what happened to world pvp? that doesn't happen or is sporadic at best.
If you like WoW good for you and I hope you enjoy it for many years to come, if you like PvP in WoW again good for you and I hope you keep enjoying it. Some people want something different, that is why we live in a free society and there is a free market in which everybody can choose what they like.
Please don't compare WAR to AoC, like you said, they made a bad copy of WoW in a different setting with better graphics that is all. WAR is not that and they did improve on WoW in many things, I have seen it, the guild system is amazing, PvP means something, not just gear, you know that if you conquer something it will matter.
Again.. I hate saying it so bluntly.. but you are wrong.
Last week, for NORTH AMERICA sales. WOW Vanilla was #5, The Burning Crusade was #7, and the WOW battlechest was #8. That is a ton of new people playing the game for the first time in North America. Yes, the game is getting old, but everything is indicating that WOW is still growing subscribers... they are up over 10% to 10.9 million in the past 8 months and that is the worst time for them (right before an expansion).
Of course Blizzard is making a new MMORPG.. it takes them 5 years to make one, they should be starting now. Blizzard has more money then God ... and they are going to be just filthy (filthier) rich next year when they launch Diable3 and Starcraft2. I wouldn't be surprised if in 5 years, all 3 of the Blizzard IP's don't have a MMORPG.
I guess that you are not counting the people that leave the game and yeah, I guess Nancy Drew: The Phantom Of Venice must be an awsome game since it's the #1 selling game in august and the sims expansion with Ikea stuff must be the one to have, there is nothing in PC to buy, if WOW sold 300 games in august will be in the top 10 for shure, more than 60% of their player bas is in asia, they are loosing ground in america and europe, not to other mmo's but to console games, people in general is getting bored ... doesn't matter, you will not listen so play WoW and be happy
if WoW wasn't in the decline, why is blizzard working on the next gen MMO?? look at the demografic of the subscribers, WoW is gaining grounds in a BIG way in Asia but loosing people in America and Europe...
the PR statements say otherwise, showing a 30% growth for America and Europe
Allow me to clarify, its not that WAR "could" stumble, its that it "WILL" there is no room for another level based grind fest clone in the market, studies have already shown people in general want something new and not some remake or look-a-like.
Allow me to clarify, its not that WAR "could" stumble, its that it "WILL" there is no room for another level based grind fest clone in the market, studies have already shown people in general want something new and not some remake or look-a-like.
Its a good thing that Mythic isnt doing that then.
anyone who thinks warhammer is a clone of warcraft is obviously oblivious to the truth.
Your friend is really you, isn't it The upside to archetypes is that you have greater control over balancing. When you have classes that are truly completely different in all ways, there will always be a select few that are the ideal and the rest are gimp. If you have gimp classes no one plays, even if its different, the class might as well not even be implemented because its just taking up space. Different for different sake alone isn't necessarily good. The downside is, as you mentioned, less true uniqueness between classes. But rarely is any class in any mmo truly unique compared to all others. Ultimately every class can be drilled down even further past the class level and defined only by how much dps they put out and how much they can take. Everything else is just minor details that affect how you put out the dps and how you take the damage. The existance of archetypes in WAR didn't really change that established mmo system. I think you are making the mistake that the 'unwashed masses' even think about something like this. Most people just log in, pick a character that looks cool and jump in. They don't waste time evaluating balance, thinking about dps, min maxing and whether or not class has major functional differences compared to class b. Most don't pick things apart like that. Thats the realm of the serious gamer. If it looks cool, they play it. Now that having been said... is your argument that theres not enough archetypes to create variety? If so, lets see some of your suggestions for new archetypes. You are sitting on a gold mine if you think you have one that every other mmo has yet to think of.
After reading all the "ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING" threads, I thought I would add my own. Just for fun mind. The topic is serious, I am being serious and I think it's a legitimate issue of discussion.
Classes. There are only 4. WAIT, before you go off listing me all the different classes, how unique they are and that they fullfill their roles diferently from their arch type base...
There are still, only four classes in WAR. Tank, Light DPS, Ranged and Healer.
This is how your modern, WOWified user base is going to see the game. They won't see any difference between a Magus and Bright Wizard. A Shaman and a Warrior Priest. In their minds, the simplified "roles" of the classes will be all that they see. I was talking with a very good friend , trying to get him all fired up about WAR since I am in the beta. I didn't break NDA or anything, I just tried to exude enthusiasm and point him at the WAR sites.
His comment "But these classes, just reskins with different animations of the same four classes!"
That told me how and where, when the unwashed masses hit the WAR front in a month or so, are going to think. His first and only MMO is WoW. I think Mythic and the WAR fans are oing to have to be patient with the masss as they realize that there is far more to WAR then just "class roles".
And that i think, will be WAR's biggest stumbling block assuming launch is smooth and the client is stable. (The two biggest problems with all MMO's at launch btw)
I dont think thats WAR's stumbling block. Its the close minded people that will lose out. WoW being his only MMO is his problem. He hasnt played anything else that has multiple classes that while the idea is the same they play completely diffrent and have there own feel to them. Maybe he will open his mind alittle bit once he hears how great WAR is after release. If not, his loss not ours.
I've been out of town, am out of town, so this maybe my only post for a few days.
I'm int he WAR beta, I KNOW what the difference is between the classes and the archtypes. I KNOW that a BW is not anything like any other Ranged class, that a Witch Hunter is not a Witch yadda yadda yadda.
Ya'll missed my point, I was trying to explore the POV of the uniformed masses that just hear 4 archtypes, coming from a game like WoW where roles were VERY MUCH set in stone will have a hard time grasping the differences at first, and may get frustrated. Imagine a lvl 70 hard core raider Holy/Disc priest trying to play a healer in WAR...
Yeah, see my point?
I KNOW the truth, now.. quit being condesending at me damn it
After reading all the "ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING" threads, I thought I would add my own. Just for fun mind. The topic is serious, I am being serious and I think it's a legitimate issue of discussion.
Classes. There are only 4. WAIT, before you go off listing me all the different classes, how unique they are and that they fullfill their roles diferently from their arch type base...
There are still, only four classes in WAR. Tank, Light DPS, Ranged and Healer.
This is how your modern, WOWified user base is going to see the game. They won't see any difference between a Magus and Bright Wizard. A Shaman and a Warrior Priest. In their minds, the simplified "roles" of the classes will be all that they see. I was talking with a very good friend , trying to get him all fired up about WAR since I am in the beta. I didn't break NDA or anything, I just tried to exude enthusiasm and point him at the WAR sites.
His comment "But these classes, just reskins with different animations of the same four classes!"
That told me how and where, when the unwashed masses hit the WAR front in a month or so, are going to think. His first and only MMO is WoW. I think Mythic and the WAR fans are oing to have to be patient with the masss as they realize that there is far more to WAR then just "class roles".
And that i think, will be WAR's biggest stumbling block assuming launch is smooth and the client is stable. (The two biggest problems with all MMO's at launch btw)
I dont think thats WAR's stumbling block. Its the close minded people that will lose out. WoW being his only MMO is his problem. He hasnt played anything else that has multiple classes that while the idea is the same they play completely diffrent and have there own feel to them. Maybe he will open his mind alittle bit once he hears how great WAR is after release. If not, his loss not ours.
ouch >.>
i remember the days when each class had their "Own" role
After reading all the "ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING" threads, I thought I would add my own. Just for fun mind. The topic is serious, I am being serious and I think it's a legitimate issue of discussion.
Classes. There are only 4. WAIT, before you go off listing me all the different classes, how unique they are and that they fullfill their roles diferently from their arch type base...
There are still, only four classes in WAR. Tank, Light DPS, Ranged and Healer.
This is how your modern, WOWified user base is going to see the game. They won't see any difference between a Magus and Bright Wizard. A Shaman and a Warrior Priest. In their minds, the simplified "roles" of the classes will be all that they see. I was talking with a very good friend , trying to get him all fired up about WAR since I am in the beta. I didn't break NDA or anything, I just tried to exude enthusiasm and point him at the WAR sites.
His comment "But these classes, just reskins with different animations of the same four classes!"
That told me how and where, when the unwashed masses hit the WAR front in a month or so, are going to think. His first and only MMO is WoW. I think Mythic and the WAR fans are oing to have to be patient with the masss as they realize that there is far more to WAR then just "class roles".
And that i think, will be WAR's biggest stumbling block assuming launch is smooth and the client is stable. (The two biggest problems with all MMO's at launch btw)
It sounds to me like your friend was looking for any excuse to not like the game...Dont assume that everyone who has played WoW and enjoyed it is as obtuse as your friend. If anything, the "unwashed masses" as youve so eloquently eluded to, will find the typical MMO archetypes as they appear in WAR, familiar and comfortable.
After reading all the "ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING" threads, I thought I would add my own. Just for fun mind. The topic is serious, I am being serious and I think it's a legitimate issue of discussion.
Classes. There are only 4. WAIT, before you go off listing me all the different classes, how unique they are and that they fullfill their roles diferently from their arch type base...
There are still, only four classes in WAR. Tank, Light DPS, Ranged and Healer.
This is how your modern, WOWified user base is going to see the game. They won't see any difference between a Magus and Bright Wizard. A Shaman and a Warrior Priest. In their minds, the simplified "roles" of the classes will be all that they see. I was talking with a very good friend , trying to get him all fired up about WAR since I am in the beta. I didn't break NDA or anything, I just tried to exude enthusiasm and point him at the WAR sites.
His comment "But these classes, just reskins with different animations of the same four classes!"
That told me how and where, when the unwashed masses hit the WAR front in a month or so, are going to think. His first and only MMO is WoW. I think Mythic and the WAR fans are oing to have to be patient with the masss as they realize that there is far more to WAR then just "class roles".
And that i think, will be WAR's biggest stumbling block assuming launch is smooth and the client is stable. (The two biggest problems with all MMO's at launch btw)
I don't know if you played any other mmo's but let me explain something
there are 4 basic classes in every mmo... there are maybe 2 mmo's out there that have more. For example lets take everquest 2, They have about 24 classes and if you look good they are even worse then warhammer. Most of those classes feel just the same as the other one. Yes they have some differences but they don't feel different imo. Same with the game Wow also those 4 archtypes. This is in EVERY MMO.
thats a tank, melee dps , range dps and healer
nothing more nothing less
ow and warhammer has made a new one btw "Melee dps with a pet". I have never seen this kind of class in any other mmo (that i have played)
Ow and your friend tell him to READ the classes and not just look @ the good looking pictures. I have seen this bulshit alot of times. People start complaining about games without even READING the damn thing.
After reading all the "ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING" threads, I thought I would add my own. Just for fun mind. The topic is serious, I am being serious and I think it's a legitimate issue of discussion.
Classes. There are only 4. WAIT, before you go off listing me all the different classes, how unique they are and that they fullfill their roles diferently from their arch type base...
There are still, only four classes in WAR. Tank, Light DPS, Ranged and Healer.
This is how your modern, WOWified user base is going to see the game. They won't see any difference between a Magus and Bright Wizard. A Shaman and a Warrior Priest. In their minds, the simplified "roles" of the classes will be all that they see. I was talking with a very good friend , trying to get him all fired up about WAR since I am in the beta. I didn't break NDA or anything, I just tried to exude enthusiasm and point him at the WAR sites.
His comment "But these classes, just reskins with different animations of the same four classes!"
That told me how and where, when the unwashed masses hit the WAR front in a month or so, are going to think. His first and only MMO is WoW. I think Mythic and the WAR fans are oing to have to be patient with the masss as they realize that there is far more to WAR then just "class roles".
And that i think, will be WAR's biggest stumbling block assuming launch is smooth and the client is stable. (The two biggest problems with all MMO's at launch btw)
Sadly its not WoW anything since blizz stole just about everything anyways.
Cant tell the fanboys that though.
This is what I feel will be WAR's biggest problem. People are going to be believing WAR is a copy of WoW, and whether it's true or not or even the other way around, WAR is going to suffer from it. The average consumer who doesn't know about WAR will think it's another attempt at making the next WoW (which ALL MMOs are trying to be, you can tell me different, but every MMO is trying to be the next WoW). But it will be more evident to players and standerbys than with other MMOs.
I don't really think the first issue mentioned by the OP is too much of a fatal flaw for MMOs. MMOs based on classes have been following this trend since the beginning of time, mostly because it works. I don't think it would do an MMO harm to go with this continued flow, but it would do outstandingly well for them to introduce something new to the table.
Ya'll missed my point, I was trying to explore the POV of the uniformed masses that just hear 4 archtypes, coming from a game like WoW where roles were VERY MUCH set in stone will have a hard time grasping the differences at first, and may get frustrated. Imagine a lvl 70 hard core raider Holy/Disc priest trying to play a healer in WAR... Yeah, see my point?
So what? There are always archetypes and then classes beneath those. Think of other MMOs like EverQuest, City of Heroes, or games like Neverwinter Nights, Diablo. It's COMMON for there to be tank, melee dps, ranged dps, support and healer. Sounds like you need to give your friend a history lesson, because I don't think this will affect folks that have been gaming for years.
Comments
The proposed PvP content is in WAR is good. Whether it succeeds or not depends on how good they follow through, good gameplay and stable servers.
WoW's endgame PvP content is limited to 4 BGs and arena. It is limited, instanced, item centric, repetitive and lacks purposeful world PvP. Many people who PvP in WoW do it because there are lack of options out there now. I know many who quit because they did not like the PvP content. It's missing the "massive" in MMO PvP.
WoW missed out on the whole Horde vs. Alliance possiblities of large scale world battles which mattered for any reason other than item farming. There is really no point to capture an enemies main city in WoW or even attack it other than fun. There is no PvP progression or point to world PvP since the best gear is obtained through instancing.
You're in the middle of a large scale all out bloody war between the horde and alliance battling for the survival with allies forced to band together because of the mutual threat. This could have been such a good PvP game with epic battles. Instead, it became an instanced item grindfest with people only caring about gear and not about any progression of their side.
WARs PvP ideas are good, core PvP-centric balancing, PvP levelling and progression, PvP quests, capturable and claimable keeps and cities, PvE and PvP contributing to the RvR effort, many more scenarios (BGs) than WoW on release, more objective based endgame world PvP.
The ideas are good, which is what most people are saying. The implementation of the idea and the quality of gameplay will ultimatle determine the success of the game.
WARs task is easy....
1) provide more PvP content than 4BGs and arena.
2) any form of endgame purposeful world PvP objectives
3) quality gameplay + stable servers
WAR has a good chance if they do all these things right. On paper, it's PvP is already far superior to WoWs.
Isn't it just so much fun to judge a game before launch? How about we wait and see how it turns out. People will like this game and others won't. That is a simple fact. It's no use trying to decide whether a game is fun or not unless you've played it already.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
Let me remind you all again that WAR do not have PvP.
It RvR just like DAoC.
75% is overstated. The difference between S4 gear (best you can get right now) and S2 gear (basically what anyone can get) is maybe 3-5% difference in DPS and Health. A good pvper can easily over come that vs an average player. It's really the same as class balance... in 1v1 fights, certain classes have an advantage against certain other classes, but a good player can always beat an average player.
In fact, I bet if you take a good pvper and put him in S1 gear (really outdated), he would win most of his matches even against handpicked gear and class of his opponent.
Its not overstated if you think about it.
Lets say you just hit level 70 on your mage and you have +450 fire damage (fire specced).
Since its S4 like you said if you just started pvping your facing other mages that have 248 base damage just off the S4 gear alone..+ resil,stam,intellect etc. you dont have a chance in the world.
Hell you could almost say its 100% gear based cause your not going to kill someone with s4 gear while you just hit 70...
Its all gear in WoW... i dont care how much skill you have because if someone rightfully obtained their s4 gear you arent going to kill them by yourself.
Let's put that in perspective. If someone rightfully got S4 gear.. that means they've been pvping at lvl 70 for a few months. Do you really think a player that has just reached lvl 70 'should' beat that player. A new level 70 player hasn't even pvp'd with all of their skills. It's not about the gear.. its about a player with months of experience pvping vs a character with little experience.
Lets take that scenario and magically give the new lvl 70 character S4 gear.. so now they are equally geared. The experienced player will still destroy the inexperienced player 100% of the time... the only difference is it will take about 5 seconds longer ( 2spells). Even if you reverse it and give the experienced pvper crap gear, they will still beat an overly geared average player.
Let's say you hit level 70 and you wanted to prove that it takes skill to win, not gear, so you stay in greens and blues for months while you play. You go up against other 70s with S4, raid epics, etc. You get your ass handed to you over and over but you're so diluted that skill is more important than gear that you never upgrade anything.
You could really try that and tell us the results. There's absolutely no denying that WoW PvP is based on gear much more than skill.
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
The proposed PvP content is in WAR is good. Whether it succeeds or not depends on how good they follow through, good gameplay and stable servers.
WoW's endgame PvP content is limited to 4 BGs and arena. It is limited, instanced, item centric, repetitive and lacks purposeful world PvP. Many people who PvP in WoW do it because there are lack of options out there now. I know many who quit because they did not like the PvP content. It's missing the "massive" in MMO PvP.
WoW missed out on the whole Horde vs. Alliance possiblities of large scale world battles which mattered for any reason other than item farming. There is really no point to capture an enemies main city in WoW or even attack it other than fun. There is no PvP progression or point to world PvP since the best gear is obtained through instancing.
You're in the middle of a large scale all out bloody war between the horde and alliance battling for the survival with allies forced to band together because of the mutual threat. This could have been such a good PvP game with epic battles. Instead, it became an instanced item grindfest with people only caring about gear and not about any progression of their side.
WARs PvP ideas are good, core PvP-centric balancing, PvP levelling and progression, PvP quests, capturable and claimable keeps and cities, PvE and PvP contributing to the RvR effort, many more scenarios (BGs) than WoW on release, more objective based endgame world PvP.
The ideas are good, which is what most people are saying. The implementation of the idea and the quality of gameplay will ultimatle determine the success of the game.
WARs task is easy....
1) provide more PvP content than 4BGs and arena.
2) any form of endgame purposeful world PvP objectives
3) quality gameplay + stable servers
WAR has a good chance if they do all these things right. On paper, it's PvP is already far superior to WoWs.
But at the same time, probably 75% of WOW players just want to PvE and don't want the fact that their 'teammates' lost to negatively impact their gameplay. " What do you mean I can't do the endgame dungeons because my side is getting crushed in pvp". For every negative things you say about pvp in WOW ( it has no overall consequence.. there is no horde vs allaince).. I will show a negative part of pve that having those features will cause in Warhammer.
Also.. just because warhammer pvp is more involved, does not mean WOW pvp isn't good. I personally love doing AV. Yes, I'm looking forward to Warhammer PvP.. but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy WOW pvp. I just don't understand why people think WOW is so terrible when 4 years after launch, it subscriber base is still growing and people queue nonstop to pvp.
I would hope that people are buying WAR to play WAR and not to be playing WOW.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Well it would be pretty hard to have a decent RvR game without PvP. All PvP is players are fighting against other players.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
Well it would be pretty hard to have a decent RvR game without PvP. All PvP is players are fighting against other players.
RvR = Realm vs Realm = PvP on a massive scale
But you can also lvl 1-40 with no RvR at all
Playing Devil's advocate here...
If WAR is so much like WoW, yet so many people can't get enough of WoW... then why not consider WAR for the aspect of it being more than any expansion that WoW/Blizz is ever going to offer for that game? lol
New art. New zones. New quests. New gear. New races (kinda). New classes. New pvp. New raids. New mounts.
You get the point.
I'm not done with WoW, but the 'burning crusade' nearly burned me out. I can only roll so many alts and repeat zones/quests so many times before I'm absolutely bored to tears.
WAR will be a change of pace. If nothing else, there will be a learning curve involved. Some people will welcome the challenge of trying to pick up a new game and trying to figure it out... and be open to differences from WoW. Others won't be so open and every little thing that WAR does differently from WoW will be criticized to the finest degree.
WAR can't get here fast enough. Otherwise, what will I do in WoW come Q4? Level my 70's to 80... level my Death Knights... and then PvP-BG/Arena, rep grind, or RAID... and wait for expansion?
I don't know but one thing for sure that Blizzard had wish that they include goblin race instead of that pew pew race.
I don't know but one thing for sure that Blizzard had wish that they include goblin race instead of that pew pew race.
We should be able to play Football in WAR with WoW Gnomes.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
You keep saying Warhammer pvp is good and it has decent pve? You get all that from a closed beta? PvP is difficult to fine tune and balance is everything.
You also keep saying WOW is 'declining' when just two months ago, they announced they have reached 10.9 million subscribers. Not only that, but Vanilla WOW, The expansion AND the battle chest all are on the top 10 PC sales non-stop. Those are new players buying the game. WOW is still growing it's subscriber base.
You also make an assumption that pvp is bad in WOW. Again, play WOW and queue for the Arena or the battlegrounds. On every server there are 100's of players doing both at any given time. Right now, not even at endgame, I can queue for AV and get into a 40v40 game within 10 minutes. There are a lot of people who enjoy pvp in WOW.
And just because a game is new, doesn't mean it will 'improve' the features of an older game. Funcom did many of the same things that WOW did, but they didn't improve on anything except graphics.
if WoW wasn't in the decline, why is blizzard working on the next gen MMO?? look at the demografic of the subscribers, WoW is gaining grounds in a BIG way in Asia but loosing people in America and Europe... some countries with a lot of coumsumers are barely getting the game, so yes, it is still growing in some parts because they are getting the game 2 or 3 years after, so it is new for them.
I am not making an assumtpion they pvp is bad in WoW, I know it is bad, I hated it every time and most people see that the strong part in WoW is PvE. PvP is meaningless, you do it for gear only, nothing else. not for the fun... I would love to see how many people do WSG for fun or AB? how many people are AFK all the time and are just there to get the badges? or you are going to tell me that people don't do that?
and C'mon, AV is PvE with PvP in it, in 90% of the cases everybody rushes towards the other side's towers and there is random PvP since everybody wants to kill the other's side NPC boss to get the honor, so in the end, you have most of players at the offensive and just the ones left behind defending but get overpowered all the time, AV is in short a PvE race to see who kills the end boss first..
Like I said, not because people do it it means it ia good or great... most people play WoW for the PvE, and by most I mean about 90%, that is why they have updates to dungeons ALL the time but they have the same BG since the inroduced them...well, they added 1 in BC compared to how many dungeons? you just said it yourself, PvP in WoW is arena and BG... what happened to world pvp? that doesn't happen or is sporadic at best.
If you like WoW good for you and I hope you enjoy it for many years to come, if you like PvP in WoW again good for you and I hope you keep enjoying it. Some people want something different, that is why we live in a free society and there is a free market in which everybody can choose what they like.
Please don't compare WAR to AoC, like you said, they made a bad copy of WoW in a different setting with better graphics that is all. WAR is not that and they did improve on WoW in many things, I have seen it, the guild system is amazing, PvP means something, not just gear, you know that if you conquer something it will matter.
You keep saying Warhammer pvp is good and it has decent pve? You get all that from a closed beta? PvP is difficult to fine tune and balance is everything.
You also keep saying WOW is 'declining' when just two months ago, they announced they have reached 10.9 million subscribers. Not only that, but Vanilla WOW, The expansion AND the battle chest all are on the top 10 PC sales non-stop. Those are new players buying the game. WOW is still growing it's subscriber base.
You also make an assumption that pvp is bad in WOW. Again, play WOW and queue for the Arena or the battlegrounds. On every server there are 100's of players doing both at any given time. Right now, not even at endgame, I can queue for AV and get into a 40v40 game within 10 minutes. There are a lot of people who enjoy pvp in WOW.
And just because a game is new, doesn't mean it will 'improve' the features of an older game. Funcom did many of the same things that WOW did, but they didn't improve on anything except graphics.
if WoW wasn't in the decline, why is blizzard working on the next gen MMO?? look at the demografic of the subscribers, WoW is gaining grounds in a BIG way in Asia but loosing people in America and Europe... some countries with a lot of coumsumers are barely getting the game, so yes, it is still growing in some parts because they are getting the game 2 or 3 years after, so it is new for them.
I am not making an assumtpion they pvp is bad in WoW, I know it is bad, I hated it every time and most people see that the strong part in WoW is PvE. PvP is meaningless, you do it for gear only, nothing else. not for the fun... I would love to see how many people do WSG for fun or AB? how many people are AFK all the time and are just there to get the badges? or you are going to tell me that people don't do that?
and C'mon, AV is PvE with PvP in it, in 90% of the cases everybody rushes towards the other side's towers and there is random PvP since everybody wants to kill the other's side NPC boss to get the honor, so in the end, you have most of players at the offensive and just the ones left behind defending but get overpowered all the time, AV is in short a PvE race to see who kills the end boss first..
Like I said, not because people do it it means it ia good or great... most people play WoW for the PvE, and by most I mean about 90%, that is why they have updates to dungeons ALL the time but they have the same BG since the inroduced them...well, they added 1 in BC compared to how many dungeons? you just said it yourself, PvP in WoW is arena and BG... what happened to world pvp? that doesn't happen or is sporadic at best.
If you like WoW good for you and I hope you enjoy it for many years to come, if you like PvP in WoW again good for you and I hope you keep enjoying it. Some people want something different, that is why we live in a free society and there is a free market in which everybody can choose what they like.
Please don't compare WAR to AoC, like you said, they made a bad copy of WoW in a different setting with better graphics that is all. WAR is not that and they did improve on WoW in many things, I have seen it, the guild system is amazing, PvP means something, not just gear, you know that if you conquer something it will matter.
Again.. I hate saying it so bluntly.. but you are wrong.
Last week, for NORTH AMERICA sales. WOW Vanilla was #5, The Burning Crusade was #7, and the WOW battlechest was #8. That is a ton of new people playing the game for the first time in North America. Yes, the game is getting old, but everything is indicating that WOW is still growing subscribers... they are up over 10% to 10.9 million in the past 8 months and that is the worst time for them (right before an expansion).
Of course Blizzard is making a new MMORPG.. it takes them 5 years to make one, they should be starting now. Blizzard has more money then God ... and they are going to be just filthy (filthier) rich next year when they launch Diable3 and Starcraft2. I wouldn't be surprised if in 5 years, all 3 of the Blizzard IP's don't have a MMORPG.
I guess that you are not counting the people that leave the game and yeah, I guess Nancy Drew: The Phantom Of Venice must be an awsome game since it's the #1 selling game in august and the sims expansion with Ikea stuff must be the one to have, there is nothing in PC to buy, if WOW sold 300 games in august will be in the top 10 for shure, more than 60% of their player bas is in asia, they are loosing ground in america and europe, not to other mmo's but to console games, people in general is getting bored ... doesn't matter, you will not listen so play WoW and be happy
the PR statements say otherwise, showing a 30% growth for America and Europe
for Jan 2007
eu.blizzard.com/en/press/070111.html
US 2 mill EU was 1.5 Asia was 3.5
1 year later Jan 2008
eu.blizzard.com/en/press/080122.html
NA was 2.5 EU was 2 Asia was 5.5
EQ2 fan sites
Allow me to clarify, its not that WAR "could" stumble, its that it "WILL" there is no room for another level based grind fest clone in the market, studies have already shown people in general want something new and not some remake or look-a-like.
Its a good thing that Mythic isnt doing that then.
anyone who thinks warhammer is a clone of warcraft is obviously oblivious to the truth.
No, I'm in the beta, I know better
Always change your signature.
I dont think thats WAR's stumbling block. Its the close minded people that will lose out. WoW being his only MMO is his problem. He hasnt played anything else that has multiple classes that while the idea is the same they play completely diffrent and have there own feel to them. Maybe he will open his mind alittle bit once he hears how great WAR is after release. If not, his loss not ours.
For all that responded, thank you for your time.
I've been out of town, am out of town, so this maybe my only post for a few days.
I'm int he WAR beta, I KNOW what the difference is between the classes and the archtypes. I KNOW that a BW is not anything like any other Ranged class, that a Witch Hunter is not a Witch yadda yadda yadda.
Ya'll missed my point, I was trying to explore the POV of the uniformed masses that just hear 4 archtypes, coming from a game like WoW where roles were VERY MUCH set in stone will have a hard time grasping the differences at first, and may get frustrated. Imagine a lvl 70 hard core raider Holy/Disc priest trying to play a healer in WAR...
Yeah, see my point?
I KNOW the truth, now.. quit being condesending at me damn it
Always change your signature.
I dont think thats WAR's stumbling block. Its the close minded people that will lose out. WoW being his only MMO is his problem. He hasnt played anything else that has multiple classes that while the idea is the same they play completely diffrent and have there own feel to them. Maybe he will open his mind alittle bit once he hears how great WAR is after release. If not, his loss not ours.
ouch >.>
i remember the days when each class had their "Own" role
It sounds to me like your friend was looking for any excuse to not like the game...Dont assume that everyone who has played WoW and enjoyed it is as obtuse as your friend. If anything, the "unwashed masses" as youve so eloquently eluded to, will find the typical MMO archetypes as they appear in WAR, familiar and comfortable.
I don't know if you played any other mmo's but let me explain something
there are 4 basic classes in every mmo... there are maybe 2 mmo's out there that have more. For example lets take everquest 2, They have about 24 classes and if you look good they are even worse then warhammer. Most of those classes feel just the same as the other one. Yes they have some differences but they don't feel different imo. Same with the game Wow also those 4 archtypes. This is in EVERY MMO.
thats a tank, melee dps , range dps and healer
nothing more nothing less
ow and warhammer has made a new one btw "Melee dps with a pet". I have never seen this kind of class in any other mmo (that i have played)
Ow and your friend tell him to READ the classes and not just look @ the good looking pictures. I have seen this bulshit alot of times. People start complaining about games without even READING the damn thing.
Sadly its not WoW anything since blizz stole just about everything anyways.
Cant tell the fanboys that though.
This is what I feel will be WAR's biggest problem. People are going to be believing WAR is a copy of WoW, and whether it's true or not or even the other way around, WAR is going to suffer from it. The average consumer who doesn't know about WAR will think it's another attempt at making the next WoW (which ALL MMOs are trying to be, you can tell me different, but every MMO is trying to be the next WoW). But it will be more evident to players and standerbys than with other MMOs.
I don't really think the first issue mentioned by the OP is too much of a fatal flaw for MMOs. MMOs based on classes have been following this trend since the beginning of time, mostly because it works. I don't think it would do an MMO harm to go with this continued flow, but it would do outstandingly well for them to introduce something new to the table.
So what? There are always archetypes and then classes beneath those. Think of other MMOs like EverQuest, City of Heroes, or games like Neverwinter Nights, Diablo. It's COMMON for there to be tank, melee dps, ranged dps, support and healer. Sounds like you need to give your friend a history lesson, because I don't think this will affect folks that have been gaming for years.