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What did PotBS do wrong?
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Hmm... you'll notice that I didn't refute what Death1942 or vondemon said on page 20 of the thread, though, aye?
They expressed dislikes about the game currently, dislikes I partially share, in fact.
I came across this thread when looking for something else and I just had to add my .02, I just registered so it prob doesn't count for much. I play French on Potbs under the name Gaston Surcouf, I started playing in pre-board and quit playing in Aug 08, I resub'd about a month ago and have been enjoying myself (again). Most of the recent slams about the game posted in this thread simply are not true anymore, yes FLS has left a trail of broken promises over features in the game, but they do update it on regular basis and most of the changes are good. Here are my thoughts since returning
Good
- New avcom; hated the old system, I am still getting the hang of the new one but at least I don't shy away from it anymore
- Daily Quests; Thirty minutes a day can yield you ~120k, which can keep my speed frigate and heavy frigate pvping with plenty of durability and out fittings.
- Insurance; Now limited to 50% of LSB value on ships, a little more risk here, but I never really wanted to sail anything better than a Valiant 3rd rate anyway, which is easily replaceable.
- Econ; Last patch halved the number of hours it takes to produce goods, combined buildings, and simplied a lot ship building parts, now it is possible to produce any size ships a in small group or make most of your own out fittings
Bad
- PVE grinding up a port for PVP is still tedious espically for lower population
- Map wins still provide no real reward other than forum bragging rights, and require a large amount of PVE grinding, I was burnout after the French Map win on Rackham
- Ganks/Splits/Griefing still going on as much as ever
Is it worth $15 a month? More now than it was a year ago, which is a good sign.
Gaston-
Have they done away with speedboats, stealth sails, and magic spells?
Or is it still Mario Kart meets WOW?
Stealth is still in-game, but has been nerfed, boats can still be fit for speed (aka "failfitting") but speedboats aren't very effective at heavy PvP, they're pretty easy to beat to be honest. You can get ganked by a pack of 'em, but you can't be uber stealthed AND fast at the same time... which means, you can see them coming from 50 miles or more and avoid them altogether more often than not.
If by magic spells you mean things like Break Formation (zomg STUNS) then yeah, that stuff is still in-game... makes it a video game rather than a sailboat simulator, imo, but I can understand why some folks don't like that stuff; it does get a bit out of hand sometimes.
Well, you make it sound like there are no more 6 man gank squads running around in failboats. Interesting.
I would also like to point out that Mario Kart is more of a video game than a driving simulator, but that doesn't mean I would pay $15/month to play it.
Frankly, that's what I found to be the problem. Mario Kart is quite cute to sit and play for a short while, zig zagging around the course, dropping banana's on those following you, and shooting rockets at those ahead of you. It can be quite engrossing for a 6 year old, but wears quickly on an adult. POTBS is fine for the first 12 to 15 levels, than, like Mario Kart, gets old fast.
Of course, the gankers always seemed to enjoy playing it endlessly.
Oh no, there are still people who run around with no intention other than to gank. There's always going to be debate about whether this is true or not, but my opinion is that as long as you have any form of World PvP and the ability to play in groups, you will have the ability to gank and thus will have gankers.
That said, there are so many ways to avoid being ganked, especially NPC hopping and dock hopping, that if anyone actually does get ganked by those guys they really are partially at fault themselves. Some players understand that and learn from it the first time to avoid it the next time... other players quit early because they just can't deal with it.
At the same time, I remember how those "many ways to avoid getting ganked" were being called exploits, especially NPC hopping (aka puddle jumping) which would allow someone to cross a red circle safely. PvPers were especially miffed by their continued existence, particularly after this method was supposed to have been removed. It's as though FLS chose to let the jumping stand because they couldn't do anything about the ganking -- one unintended consequence of the game design to solve another.
I will add that if a player has to use such a cumbersome method to get through circles, it's not exactly convenient and makes you waste considerable time. I'm wondering how many people see a worthy dilemma in having to choose between swiftly risking their way across and using a lengthy method of questionable legitimacy.
+1 for not listening to the beta testers
Sidenote: You would think by now that the likes of MJ, McQuaid, Garrett, Bowman, etc would listen to the testers when they critique their projects... It is funny though, have you ever noticed that those in charge (of anything, actually), are most often the most out of touch
<Insert insult about ur fat mom here>
At the same time, I remember how those "many ways to avoid getting ganked" were being called exploits, especially NPC hopping (aka puddle jumping) which would allow someone to cross a red circle safely. PvPers were especially miffed by their continued existence, particularly after this method was supposed to have been removed. It's as though FLS chose to let the jumping stand because they couldn't do anything about the ganking -- one unintended consequence of the game design to solve another.
I will add that if a player has to use such a cumbersome method to get through circles, it's not exactly convenient and makes you waste considerable time. I'm wondering how many people see a worthy dilemma in having to choose between swiftly risking their way across and using a lengthy method of questionable legitimacy.
They still ARE called exploits by PvPers, and PvPers are still miffed about 'em. I personally won't PvP in the lower Antilles (from Orleans down to Bridgetown) because there are so many NPCs and closely arranged ports for people to jump to and from with impunity). However, this late in the game if FLS won't call it an exploit and fix it, then one has to assume they don't disapprove of it. As you said, one unintended consequence of the game design to solve another.
For my part, I feel that if you want to be immune to PvP in a PvP zone, it SHOULDN'T be convenient, it SHOULD cost you time and it SHOULD be cumbersome; you're getting immunity from PvP in a PvP zone, how can you complain about losing 15 minutes of your time to weasel your way through the red when you're saving days' worth of goods that you're hauling in a ship it may have taken you a week or two to get? This is the sort of thing opinions will always differ on, though, even if FLS did come out and make a statement about it one way or the other.
I've played on and off over the 1st year. I imagine I will take breaks in the future as well but I will always come back because the PvP in this game is too damn addictive. I'm not a ganker in fact 95% of the time I fight alone. Sometimes I get a 1v1 sometimes the odds are stacked against me although it's not too hard to avoid this. This week I survived a 1v4 in which I sank 2 pirates and escaped the other pair which points out the strongest part of this game. Player decisionmaking is a much bigger factor in winning or losing than in any other game out there.
I did not find the leveling process overly enjoyable but they have taken steps to make this easier. I don't believe the game shines until you hit level cap and start engaging in the PvP on equal terms with the rest of the player base. Thats the commitment you have to make to this game though. If you judge the game before you reach the end, then you'll miss out on a fun and challenging game experience. The game would certainly be better if it was a little more fun getting to the end, but I just didn't find it that way myself.
I think FLS has done well to ease financial burdens to players participating in PvP which was a real problem early in the game's development and streamlined the economy for the better as well. Losing a ship is now not a crippling event like it was a year ago.
I'm not big into running the missions so I have not run any of the end game quest lines so no idea how good that experience is. I am quite happy loggin on for 1-3 hours and finding other players to fight or helping my society build boats by contributing to the production process.
I would strongly recommend anyone who enjoys PvP or wants to take a crack at it to try the game. It's a challenging experience to pit yourself against other players on a nightly basis and most players are happy to help new players learn the ropes, even your opponents. You will be in fights that you likely can't win, but pulling off the upset or inflciting meaningful casualties on your opponents is still possible and highly enjoyable experience when you do.
Well, his title on the forum is POTBS Correspondent, (like Avery) so it seems that yes, he might just be a "shill" for them.
Nothing wrong with that really, he likes the game, and wants to see it succeed.
You are absolutely correct, of course. However it just proves the point that discussing a game is pointless with anyone labeled "Correspondent". Wanting it to succeed? That is understandable but I prefer to draw a line when that success is obtained at all costs. In this case the advertisement covers gaping holes in the product. This is nothing new - VG, AoC, WAR, TR did the same. Of course that is the reason why I wouldn't touch any of them. Quite simply having in mind the background I am disinclined to beleive that radical changes were, are or will be made. Rather they will try to peddle second rate goods at a premium price becuase there is nothign else to do.
And to reply to one of the later comments. Since I was around when servers dropped from 12 to 4 and saw majority of players leave I reserve for myself the right to comment on the behaviour of the masses. I suspect that FLS would be jumping happy if just a portion of dissatisfied rabble returned. That being said I recently did return to the game and left roughly 48 hours later, I stand by my comments.
I recommend anyone to try it for itself via the free trial, the rest is irrelevant. It might work for you but it didn't work for me and for many others. I am of the opinion that majority dislikes it (see server mergers from 12 to 4) while minority will play it (1 healthy server, 2 at best mediocre servers currently). Mind you, I am measuring it according to the situation at launch.
Well, his title on the forum is POTBS Correspondent, (like Avery) so it seems that yes, he might just be a "shill" for them.
Nothing wrong with that really, he likes the game, and wants to see it succeed.
You are absolutely correct, of course. However it just proves the point that discussing a game is pointless with anyone labeled "Correspondent". Wanting it to succeed? That is understandable but I prefer to draw a line when that success is obtained at all costs. In this case the advertisement covers gaping holes in the product. This is nothing new - VG, AoC, WAR, TR did the same. Of course that is the reason why I wouldn't touch any of them. Quite simply having in mind the background I am disinclined to beleive that radical changes were, are or will be made. Rather they will try to peddle second rate goods at a premium price becuase there is nothign else to do.
And to reply to one of the later comments. Since I was around when servers dropped from 12 to 4 and saw majority of players leave I reserve for myself the right to comment on the behaviour of the masses. I suspect that FLS would be jumping happy if just a portion of dissatisfied rabble returned. That being said I recently did return to the game and left roughly 48 hours later, I stand by my comments.
I recommend anyone to try it for itself via the free trial, the rest is irrelevant. It might work for you but it didn't work for me and for many others. I am of the opinion that majority dislikes it (see server mergers from 12 to 4) while minority will play it (1 healthy server, 2 at best mediocre servers currently). Mind you, I am measuring it according to the situation at launch.
I still talk to many who have had active subs in the past months. The universal comment is that while they love the basics of the ship combat still (though not so much the changes of the last 6 months), they wonder why they ever resubbed, because nothing really has changed, and in many ways things have gotten worse. Those who loved the economy, mourn how it has become dumbed down. The pirates I talk to complain everyone in the red is a pirate and that they wish they could attack their own faction to make some room. Everyone (especially the women, we really didn't have complaints) wonders the why of 'polishes' like the female avatars.
Linna
"Why they ever re-subbed"?
That's like saying why waste your r/l playing an mmo.
We all know you have an axe to grind so you are bound to want to make things look bad for FLS when in fact there have been quite a lot of improvements, some of which undeniably have been held up by the extensive av-com revamp.
Just to let you know what you will be missing out on:
Read the full interview with Russell Williams CEO FLS Laboratories here
Joined with SoE. Nuff said.
Only for distribution, payments & marketing.
FLS have their their own devs & run their own servers.
They are a totally independent expanding company that are allied to other companies like in Russia not just SOE.
"Why they ever re-subbed"?
That's like saying why waste your r/l playing an mmo.
We all know you have an axe to grind so you are bound to want to make things look bad for FLS when in fact there have been quite a lot of improvements, some of which undeniably have been held up by the extensive av-com revamp.
Just to let you know what you will be missing out on:
Read the full interview with Russell Williams CEO FLS Laboratories here
Same old, same old, song and dance we've been hearing about for almost a year.
By the way, what are "dailies"? Sounds like some form of welfare for the whiny babies that want to PvP with the big ships they really can't afford.
Look, it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out at the begining that eventually port battles would be comprised of level 50 NOs in first rate SOLs. Line ship bundles was never a solution, just a speed bump to temporarily slow it down. Then they threw in insurance to soften the speed bump. Now, the new change the whiny babies are threatening to rage quite over is not insuring LSBs, because they are afraid to use, and lose, their first rate. Surprise for you boys, if you can't pay for that tricked out Cadillac Escalade, maybe you shouldn't be driving it.
Never should have been insurance in the game to begin with. It countered the LSB speed bump by allowing players to accumulate more capital, which in turn led to inflation, which in turn ruined the market for new players (not that FLS has to worry about that).
It's real basic for the whiny babies, if you can't afford to lose it, PvP in something smaller. Why can't a level 50 PvP in a corvette? Because the level 30 might beat him? So, he has to be a Jedi so he can dominate? FLS made the wrong move and let everybody be a Jedi. Everybody gets a first rate, and now, with the nerf, everbody cries cause they can't be a Jedi. Boo Hoo!
Obviously I agree with the FLS move not to insure LSBs. Now, if they'd wise up and drop insurance altogether, and re-educate level 50s that they just might have to pull out some corvettes and frigates to PvP, it might actually become a fun and challenging game again for everyone. Not just the uber leets that can devote 16 hours a day to a game.
The economic nerf. C'mon FLS, why do you want to make Mario Kart easier? Because your dedicated player base cries if they don't have their "I Win" button for use against newbs?
Overall, FLS still hasn't taken the hint, and keeps Mario Kart meets WOW as their model. When the game launched all that was on the market was WOW fantasy clones, and a few Scie-Fi MMORPGs. POTBS was seen as something fresh, a historically based MMORPG. Then players saw WOW type spells, invulnerability protection, debuffs, and stuns, and experienced speed boats and stealth sails. Visibility of 50 miles, allowing for 6 amn gank packs, rather than 5 mile visability and spreading the packs out to cover more sea (thus stretching the map). Players voted with their feet, screaming, "Gawd, NO, not another mindless WOW clone". And a bad one at that.
Years from now Rusty will do an interview and talk about all the mistakes FLS made in their initial entry into the MMORPG market. All the wrong moves, and squandered opportunities. At least I won't have to read it and wonder why I was such a dumbass to continue paying $15/month for this crap.
"Why they ever re-subbed"?
That's like saying why waste your r/l playing an mmo.
We all know you have an axe to grind so you are bound to want to make things look bad for FLS when in fact there have been quite a lot of improvements, some of which undeniably have been held up by the extensive av-com revamp.
Just to let you know what you will be missing out on:
Read the full interview with Russell Williams CEO FLS Laboratories here
These are players who WANT to love the game, but find they cannot. Who come back to try these vaunted changes, and are very disappointed. You can dismiss this, or you can accept it as a sign all is still far from well. I've always said people need to make up their own minds on this.
I WOULD like to point out that software developers usually have separate teams on different types of changes. If all their resources are tied up on just the avcom, that in itself is not a great sign.
As to my missing out: banned, remember. Missing out kinda implies you have the option to try and see how wonderful it all is. Yes, the affair surrounding that whole story upsets me, but the game itself frankly leaves me cold at this point. You and Havohej overestimate my emotional involvement with this by a fairly wide margin (hell, I was never one of those threatening to firebomb Smedley either, and that fiasco was way worse). But by all means keep drawing attention to it, makes people curious to see what the whole deal is about. Always good to educate people about the less savory side of businesses.
Linna
Well i can only assume that because you keep posting in "what went wrong " that you wish to empathize your points. Presumably you thought Potbs was reasonable up to the time you got banned otherwise why were you subscribing to it.
Sure mistakes have been made which even FLS has admitted to & more content is needed but that is the case with many mmos. If wooden ship combat is your thing there is no competition.
Saying you cant play because you are banned, what is to stop another member of your family from making an account?
The cost of losing a ship in PvP was never the issue.
Do you know how many corvettes you can lose in PvP to equal one first rate? One helluva lot.
The problem was not the cost of the loss, the problem was players that wanted to sail the uber leet ships. They wanted to sleep sound at night secure in the knowledge that they were uber leet, as evidenced by that nice, big, shiny, level 50 ship tucked into it's game berth. But they never really wanted to PvP.
They were insecure about getting down in the mud and scrapping with the level 30s in cutters, corvettes, and Raa frigates, because it's hard to think of yourself as uber leet when a level 30 caps you. That would have been PvP'ing.
They wanted to tool around in a brand spanking new Ferrari to show their peers how they were studs. And they closed the economic model so they could do so at cost.
And Rusty sold it to them, hook, line, and sinker. He gave them insurance, he gave them welfare, he gave them whatever it took so they could get that uber leet level 50 first rate SOL. Now, when Rusty realizes that was the wrong move for the health of the game, and wants to make them pay for their nice, shiny Ferrari, they whine and threaten to rage quit.
Well, here's one out to you Rusty. I want a nice shiney, brand new 2009 Ferrari Special Edition in my garage too, so I can tool around my home town and impress all the girls with how uber leet I am. I'm gonna whine Rusty, for a long time, until you PM me and deliver one to me. Oh, and by the way Rusty, I want it fully insured for free. Then I don't have to lie awake at night worrying about whether my petty insecurities will show through. Yup, then I can be uber leet too!
C'mon Rusty, buy me my Ferrari. You know you want too, really, you do!
The cost of losing a ship in PvP was never the issue.
Do you know how many corvettes you can lose in PvP to equal one first rate? One helluva lot.
A lot. Do you know how much more fun it is to fight in equally equiped level 50 frigates than in mismatched fights?
I'm not the best. Never have been never will be. I lose some and win some. . I don't care about sailing rated ships. Been offered a 2nd rate for free by my society and turned it down. Just not my thing.
I don't have all day to grind for cash so yes easing the financial burdens opens the game to more casual players to compete with those who can devote long hours to the game. I play simply to compete. Winning or losing is irrelevant. I'd rather lose a closely fought engagement than win without breaking a sweat. What I do need from a game is for it to be set up so it is "reasonable possible" for me to step onto the field of play and compete on roughly equal terms. Opening up the money spigot has allowed more casual players like me to compete against the more hardcore players and for the fights to be determined by player skill and not equipment.
Every PvPer should rejoice at this set up because it expands the pool of opponents out there who can and are willing to fight on roughly equal terms.
The cost of losing a ship in PvP was never the issue.
Do you know how many corvettes you can lose in PvP to equal one first rate? One helluva lot.
A lot. Do you know how much more fun it is to fight in equally equiped level 50 frigates than in mismatched fights?
There lies the problem. Players that feel it is more fun to fight in level 50 frigates than any other equally equipped level ship. Mismatched fights occur in PvP when players race to level cap so they can have the uber gear and AVOID equally equipped fights. All you are doing is racing to level cap to try to force them into equally equipped fights. It's a treadmill created by the uber leets for the benefit of the uber leets. And you're running it.
I'm not the best. Never have been never will be. I lose some and win some. . I don't care about sailing rated ships. Been offered a 2nd rate for free by my society and turned it down. Just not my thing.
I constantly PvP'd in medium sized ships, I operated a shipyard that could easily replace them. What I had a problem with is bringing out my Locust, or my Raa, and only encountering level 50 frigates, because other players didn't want to PvP on an equal level. They wanted an "I win" button. That is not PvP, that is insecurity, and ego. That is "make it unfair to your advantage".
A PvP match in a Mediator, Locust, Arcadia, or Raa is more fun for me than to big, ponderous, level 50 ships banging away at "magic" spells. The speed, acceleration, and turn rate of two small ships in combat makes for much more exciting action.
But players quit doing those types of combat. Because they don't want balanced PvP, they want an "I win noob" button. And gear gives them that advantage over players without gear.
No game mechanic, as the game exists today, prevents level 50s from PvP'ing in cutters, corvettes, and smaller frigates. No game mechanic today prevents the national leaders of two sides telling their people to show up for PBs in cutters, corvettes, and smaller frigates. Hell, I played on Rackham when the Spanish showed up to a New Orleans PB in gunboats, so don't tell me it can't be done. Tell me a PB with both sides in gunboats wouldn't be memorable? Tell me how expensive losing a gunboat is?
Yet the uber leets choose not to, and whine when they cannot replace their level 50 frigates, and threaten to rage quit when they can't get insurance on line ship bundles. Why is that? They don't need insurance on LSBs to PvP, now, do they? Maybe they're not in the game to PvP, maybe they're really only in it to look uber leet in their spiffy level 50 first rate? Maybe it's not about the game, maybe it's not about the fun, maybe it's all about certain people's egos? People that put in 16 hours a day at the game, and want to be worshipped as game gods?
I don't have all day to grind for cash so yes easing the financial burdens opens the game to more casual players to compete with those who can devote long hours to the game. I play simply to compete. Winning or losing is irrelevant. I'd rather lose a closely fought engagement than win without breaking a sweat. What I do need from a game is for it to be set up so it is "reasonable possible" for me to step onto the field of play and compete on roughly equal terms. Opening up the money spigot has allowed more casual players like me to compete against the more hardcore players and for the fights to be determined by player skill and not equipment.
Doesn't take all day to grind out the cash for a Locust or a Raa. Matter of fact, I never had to. I just made a few extra, and sold them on an open market. Just took a click of the button. Not like some games, where you have to increase your gathering skill, gather materials, then craft. POTBS is relatively pain free to craft in. You can sail your ship around, and still accumulate labor, all at the same time.
Oh, and by the way, Mediators were free at your national capital in those days. All I did was upgrade them to mastercrafts. So, tell me, what was the cost to replace a free Mediator? Used to see alot of PvP'ers running around in those. Why did FLS remove them? Because the uber leets cried that players weren't getting on their closed market society treadmill?
As for the death penalty, what you are arguing for is a game without a death penalty. You are arguing for removal of risk vrs reward. You want your MOV when you win, but don't want any downside when you lose. You want the reward increased so you can PvP in a more expensive ship, not so that you can PvP. Why, because you have to be competitive with the boys that want the uber leet ships, the ones that play 16 hours a day and don't want to PvP on equal terms with the level 20s and 30s in Locusts and Raas.
To compete on equal terms you have to move up into the more expensive ships whether you want to, or not. Whether you can afford to, or not. That is because the pace and flow of the game is dictated by those players that spend 16 hours a day playing, not by the casual gamers. So, as a player you have to race to endgame to compete. Que up that treadmill, you're running on it.
And FLS is fine with that. They cater toward their hardcore players, and as a casual you must PvP with the expensive ships if you want to play. They might as well just give every new player a level 50 ship and make them a level 50 captain right after they complete the tutorial. Then the new player can compete.
And for all players, just ditch the economy altogether, and give every player an uber leet ship when his old uber leet ship is sunk in PvP. That way all are guaranteed a cheap ship to compete equally. Oh, wait, the uber leets won't like that, because once everyone has uber leet ships, they won't be uber leet anymore. And they can't Lord it over the little people by having them deliver ship components to build their uber leet ships at cost in a closed market economy. After all, who decided about that 2nd rate, you, or your society? And who is your society, what person(s)? In a free market you can decide, and build, anything you want, and not be dependant on them.
So, instead, FLS can just keep things the way they are, but give the uber leets society warehouses, so they can pound the final nail in the coffin of the open market and have everyone's nose between their butt cheeks, dependant on the uber leets for their ships.
Every PvPer should rejoice at this set up because it expands the pool of opponents out there who can and are willing to fight on roughly equal terms.
Every PvP'er should rejoice because they have to spend countless hours racing to level 50 so they can afford the big ships to engage in PvP with the uber leets, and little to no chance of being in a PB until they have a first rate SOL and kissed the uber leets ring?
It doesn't expand the pool of opponents. It just puts you in the pool of the uber leets that FLS has catered to ever since beta. That pool is a closed economic model that provides the uber leets with first rates at cost, with the non-uber leets running around producing ship parts in return for a promise of a rate. A rate they will be lucky/grateful to be allowed into a PB with, because the uber leets have the first rates. In case you haven't noticed, there is only one viable server, Antigua. It never used to be that way. How quickly players re-write the history of the game.
Gee, if I was starting the game as a newb I'd say, 'no friggin way", I want to PvP my way in cutters, corvettes, and frigates. Not wait until I hit level 50 because everyone is in the uber stuff.
But FLS took the free Mediators out of the game, didn't they? Wonder why? Maybe they want you on that treadmill, grinding the months away until level 50, and the promise of joining the uber leets in "fair" PvP? Maybe they just don't know what the hell their doing in administering the game?
Helluva way to run a game.
You can very soon, Skirmish is coming probably in the next patch - in the meantime it doesn't take too long to get to lvl50 on a x2 exp enabled server or nation.
"I constantly PvP'd in medium sized ships, I operated a shipyard that could easily replace them. What I had a problem with is bringing out my Locust, or my Raa, and only encountering level 50 frigates, because other players didn't want to PvP on an equal level. They wanted an "I win" button. That is not PvP, that is insecurity, and ego. That is "make it unfair to your advantage"."
oledaddy, you had me up to here. Are you saying that it's unfair for people to reach level 50 because YOU want fair fights at level 30? So I'm supposed to just stop doing missions, stop progressing my character along the RP story arc, just STOP playing the game altogether so that I can sit about on the Open Sea in a Lexington MC just-a waiting for your level 30 toon which you, for whatever reason, decided not to keep leveling? Or you ARE level 50 but just don't like sailing big, slow ships?
Seriously? That's not a flaw of the game, mate, that's your own decision. Don't expect everybody to decide they want to stop at level 30 or only sail level 30 ships as well and then say it's unfair when they don't. The OS right now has its share of bundlehercs and MoV refits, but it's also got its share of vanilla ships like the Capriceux MC, Minerva MC, Defiant Sleek (L40 boat), Arcadia MC (L44 boat), various Oliphants, Raa MC (L39), Raa Sleek (L36), Cerberus MC (I know, right? lol), Lancer Cutters, Mediator MCs, Hermes Sleek, lowbie refits like Expedition, Discovery, etc. it's not ALL uber leet and expensive ships in the red circles. There are popular ships, yes, and with the money faucet at full they're ALL easy to get for anyone with a half an hour per day for daily missions.
Players in level 50 ships typically avoid players in lower level ships because they know that if the L50 in the lower level ship is attacking them then the attacker must be pretty sure he can outmaneuver and sink the slower, more unweildy Huge frigate. Players like me keep ships of various sizes for when we run around hunting solo looking for any traders and any ship we think we can beat with the boat we've chosen (I've had a LOT of success in Raa MC, including several Raa MC vs. Raa MC 1v1 fights). But what it comes down to is, I LIKE small, medium and large ships more than I like huge ships (I've never sailed a colossal with my rat and don't really plan to with my Naval Officer to be honest, though now that I think about it I might just for something to write about). A lot of the players who consider themselves to be uber leet PvPers and talk smack about people who sail smaller ships and "failboats" used to sail those same smaller ships and failboats themselves and got bored with it. Can't fault them for that; the game offers choices in skills to pick, ships to sail and outfittings to use, each player makes his/her own choices.
You seem to be trying to portray this range of options as a negative point to the game, but if there WEREN'T a wide range of options we'd all be saying how boring it is that there's only one ship to sail. Fortunately it's not that way and I'm able to have an Archelon, an Arcadia MC and a Mediator Cutter MC in my drydock for 3 different flavors of PvP fun depending on what kind of mood I'm in that day
And I don't know why all this hostility about uber leets... Every game has players who take on an "I'm better than you" attitude based on the fact that they have more disposable time with which to play a video game, which in turn means that they are in fact better at the game than people who haven't had as much practice or as much time to accumulate in-game assets. There's nothing wrong with it. The problem begins when the players they beat up on in the video game have self-esteem issues such that they care if some random internet person is better than them at a video game. Really, man, it's not that serious.
You can very soon, Skirmish is coming probably in the next patch - in the meantime it doesn't take too long to get to lvl50 on a x2 exp enabled server or nation.
In a game like this, however, and at the stage we're in (a year after release), who would want to waste any time levelling up, especially if you're useless in RvR before level 50?
Actually, I was discussing this very issue last week on another blog -- the same blog, in fact, where Isildur made a certain comment back in 2007. And also to note, my post came as a result of another Isildur comment saying that views on MMO design opposed "people who have made MMOs and know why we use classes and levels" and those who didn't. So far he hasn't bothered to respond to any of my points, but at this stage, I know better than to refresh the screen every 5 minutes.
Having levels in PotBS was a mistake, pure and simple.
I will discuss a few of olddaddy's points in a separate post.
"Why they ever re-subbed"?
That's like saying why waste your r/l playing an mmo.
We all know you have an axe to grind so you are bound to want to make things look bad for FLS when in fact there have been quite a lot of improvements, some of which undeniably have been held up by the extensive av-com revamp.
Just to let you know what you will be missing out on:
Read the full interview with Russell Williams CEO FLS Laboratories here
Same old, same old, song and dance we've been hearing about for almost a year.
By the way, what are "dailies"? Sounds like some form of welfare for the whiny babies that want to PvP with the big ships they really can't afford.
Look, it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out at the begining that eventually port battles would be comprised of level 50 NOs in first rate SOLs. Line ship bundles was never a solution, just a speed bump to temporarily slow it down. Then they threw in insurance to soften the speed bump. Now, the new change the whiny babies are threatening to rage quite over is not insuring LSBs, because they are afraid to use, and lose, their first rate. Surprise for you boys, if you can't pay for that tricked out Cadillac Escalade, maybe you shouldn't be driving it.
Never should have been insurance in the game to begin with. It countered the LSB speed bump by allowing players to accumulate more capital, which in turn led to inflation, which in turn ruined the market for new players (not that FLS has to worry about that).
So many colliding points here, thanks to bundleboats. First is the arms race that comes as a result of their cost -- an arms race from which pirates are pretty much disqualified, unless they capture a First to Third Rate and want to sail around in an invalid ship that is pretty much a sitting duck anywhere but in a port battle, but which isn't really a race when two of the three bona fide nations are underpopulated. The British I-Win button pretty much started here.
Then there was the inevitable rush for players not only to level to 50, but to buy one. After a while the battles, as you said, would have been filled almost entirely with bundleboats, with perhaps one or two frigates for tactical considerations. But more directly, the high costs led directly to the closed society production that economic producers are bemoaning. Worse still, the more tightly knit the society, the more efficient the production of bundleboats -- and frankly, it's one case where I can't imagine a casual society comprised of strangers you have recruited in this specific game being particularly efficient in comparison to a hardcore guild where the end justifies the means.
I do remember the example of The Mafia in the Blackbeard (then Rackham) French. They admitted on the forums that they wanted to remain small in PotBS, and only recruited ONE person in this specific game; the rest had just joined Mafia at an earlier stage and just transferred to PotBS with the guild. Mafia was small, but they were the first in the faction to launch a First Rate. Can you really expect a casual guild to be able to tell its members, "now, you produce only what I tell you, only as long as I tell you, and then you switch to what I tell you, while selling none of what you make on the auctionhouse, so you must grind for the capital needed" (which was how Mafia said they worked)? Not really...
So it was really as you said, a case of the leet versus casual players.
It's real basic for the whiny babies, if you can't afford to lose it, PvP in something smaller. Why can't a level 50 PvP in a corvette? Because the level 30 might beat him? So, he has to be a Jedi so he can dominate? FLS made the wrong move and let everybody be a Jedi. Everybody gets a first rate, and now, with the nerf, everbody cries cause they can't be a Jedi. Boo Hoo!
Obviously I agree with the FLS move not to insure LSBs. Now, if they'd wise up and drop insurance altogether, and re-educate level 50s that they just might have to pull out some corvettes and frigates to PvP, it might actually become a fun and challenging game again for everyone. Not just the uber leets that can devote 16 hours a day to a game.
Now, as far as insurance is concerned, I approve of the general idea but not the way they brought it into the game. Covering bundleboats, we now all know, was a mistake, because as soon as you'd have done the requisite grinding for the first deed, you would pretty much be guaranteed to retain it for as long as you cared to play. When they brought that in, in the way they did it, it all seemed to be an act of desperation, let's hurry to bring this into the game before we lose more players. I would have much preferred to see a game where you would have to opt in to be covered (with a respite for low-level players who might not be aware of it, who would get automatically compensated), and where you would have to pay a small premium for coverage -- you know, like real life, instead of being manna from heaven every single time you sank.
It was FLS's mistake to insure bundleboats, and it led to that later controversy about taking it away from the cost of bundles. However, it did give us another example of FLS backtracking. From a company that used to bring things into the game that nobody wanted or that everyone said would fail (superganks, anyone?), they've reached the point where they introduce things they don't really think through or don't seem to particularly care about (except, strangely, avatar combat). Like that economic overhaul.
The economic nerf. C'mon FLS, why do you want to make Mario Kart easier? Because your dedicated player base cries if they don't have their "I Win" button for use against newbs?
The economy wasn't functional from the start, because of the concept of not pegging labour to the player's own time. It just made closed society production possible, and multiboxing a definite advantage to anyone who would be desperate enough to maintain more than one account, as well as cross-server lot-swapping. Simplifying the process won't change a thing.
Overall, FLS still hasn't taken the hint, and keeps Mario Kart meets WOW as their model. When the game launched all that was on the market was WOW fantasy clones, and a few Scie-Fi MMORPGs. POTBS was seen as something fresh, a historically based MMORPG. Then players saw WOW type spells, invulnerability protection, debuffs, and stuns, and experienced speed boats and stealth sails. Visibility of 50 miles, allowing for 6 amn gank packs, rather than 5 mile visability and spreading the packs out to cover more sea (thus stretching the map). Players voted with their feet, screaming, "Gawd, NO, not another mindless WOW clone". And a bad one at that.
I tend to be a purist myself, but how many people really think like us? I see a few on the PotBS forums, but how many are they? I think that by and large those people are in a minority, but I too was really bothered by "spells" and such. Romanticized vision of the time I can take; but skills making you unsinkable for a few seconds, ships bouncing off sandbars (one of my particular gripes), and spells making the enemy more incompetent, no thanks.
So many things came as a result of that tiny map, too. Take those red circles, concentrating the ganking in there. Is it normal that because ONE French port near the capital is being flipped, FOUR perfectly normal French ports (with, presumably, their garrison being on alert) also happen to fall within the unrest zone? The red circle idea could have worked on a much larger map, where the circle would have stretched for miles and miles, while encompassing only the one city being affected.
Years from now Rusty will do an interview and talk about all the mistakes FLS made in their initial entry into the MMORPG market. All the wrong moves, and squandered opportunities. At least I won't have to read it and wonder why I was such a dumbass to continue paying $15/month for this crap.
And what's this talk of an expansion? Well, based on their promises of port governance and skirmish, I'd say it's not for tomorrow, nor next year. Let's hope they learn from their mistakes if they do release one, but I'm not holding my breath over it. And where would they expand anyway? North and South America? Africa? (Not much trade there except for you-know-what.) Europe?
To me that just seemed like Rusty was just being hypothetical, because FLS does seem to have other projects (good for them, I guess), including that new division involved in some sort of project with Upper Deck. An expansion to a struggling game -- especially if the expansion is to be added for free to the existing game, as promised -- isn't exactly a wise idea. Better start over if you want to do that, with one massive zone covering the Atlantic on both shores, and the Mediterranean as well -- and take notice of what went wrong with PotBS.
I think people forget how the free market economy worked prior to the closed economy, though.
I remember that I could click the button and make three Locust Corvettes. I sold them on the market at my cost plus a 10% markup, and they were usually gone in a couple of days. I could turn in my pennants and get a free Mediator Cutter, which I could either upgrade to a Heavy Mediator, or a Mastercraft Mediator (depending on what was on the market) with the click of a button and sell it for 3,000 to 4,000 dblns, which returned a better profit because the base Mediator was free.
Try buying a Heavy or Mastercraft Mediator now for 3,000 to 4,000 dblns.
There was more money to be made on the open market, and faster, then grinding.
Prices were cheaper too.
Today, there is no open market, and everybody complains about grinding to pay for ships.
Wasn't always that way......game mechanic changes favored those running the closed market societies over the open market casual players.
EDIT: I also think people forget how the game used to play, too. You know, back in the days when there was more than one viable server (Antigua). Let me tell you about French on Rackham:
Joe Casual would come home from work, eat dinner, bond with the family, eventually tuck the kids in bed, then run off to his computer for a few hours of POTBS.
He logged on, clicked a button and created some materials, put them on the market, maybe did a mission, then answered a group to do "Red Tide" (that one went on every 15-20 minutes regular as clockwork), tagged some NPCs in the OS, ran over to the Bahamas and exchanged smack with the Rats in hopes of some PvP, headed back to Grenville, checked the market, then called it a night.
Every once in a while he ran his pennants into the capital, got his free Mediator, maybe a free Straslund once in a while, some free ball shot, maybe some free sails, and headed back to Grenville and put it on the market. Then he went out, ran a mission or two, did Red Tide again, some more OS PvE, exchanged more smack with the Rats, and ended the day back in Grenville.
Why he was out playing, someone like me had cruised out to the capital, picked up a free Mediator or Straslund, dropped by Grenville, picked up his and another free Mediators for 2,000-3,000 dblns, clicked a button and upgraded them to heavies or mastercrafts, then put them back on the market at 1,000 dblns higher than I bought them for. There were always free Mediators on the market in Grenville.
Joe Casual is back at the end of the night, having cleared more than 1,000 dblns running missions and OS PvE, plus his 2,000 from me, and picks up a heavy/mastercraft Mediator, maybe a Staslund. Now he's set for tomorrow night after the kids are in bed. Life is good.
Then one day a red circle goes up at New Orleans, Joe Casual and his buds head out there for some contention, some PvP. Funny thing is, I was there when the 6 level 50s in Triton Interceptors roll in, and say "Fuck you noobs, this is PvP, this is RvR, you noobs in the Mediator, the Locust, the Straslund are so wasted." One by one the French come out of the combat instance, and are ground into dust by the 6 Tritons. No French level 50s respond. Funny how that worked.
The French casuals say, "Fuck this shit, I ain't paying $15/month for this bullshit, I'm outta here".
And that's why you have one viable server now. Couldn't let the casuals in their Mediators, Locusts, and Straslunds into the club. Couldn't let them grind contention and play in a PB.
I left because once they left, the market dried up. The societies closed it, if you wanted materials you had to get them from a society. I joined a society (no more independance for me) and spent several nights a week in the frigate rotation to patrol New Orleans/Gulf of Mexico so our lower level players could get in, run missions, or do whatever. Never had to worry about a 1v1 with another level 50 frigate, they didn't like that. Several times they'd whistle up some buddies and I had to whistle up our Cayo patrol (France is awful funny about Cayo/Havana going into the red, as is Spain). Once the odds evened up, they went hunting elsewhere, and our lowby players could get on with their game. It was as predictable as clockwork.
No more making Mediators, Locusts, Straslunds, or Raas for me either. Just "We need 2,000 of various sailcloth, and we need it by yesterday. Grind slave, grind. I don't give a flying fuck if you make ships, change your production to make sail cloth". Always the threat that I would never see another frigate again unless I delivered.
Well, I ain't paying $15 a month to sit in the Gulf of Mexico reading a book while grinding out 2,000 sail cloth by yesterday so some asshole can make a fucking third rate. And I ain't going back to a game in which the developers encourage assholes.