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Logical Argument against banning exploiter policies...
Kriminal99
Member Posts: 377
My old thread mysteriously disappeared, as well as my thread asking where it went, so...
Many mmorpg companies now have policies that allow them to ban players for what they call exploiting. The purpose of this thread is to point out how these policies have very bad effects on the game and overall are not worth it.
To begin lets look at definitions given for "exploiting". We will see that all of these definitions have serious holes or logical fallicies in them. As well we will see how these holes can act as a catch all allowing people responsible for enforcing them (in some cases unpaid volunteers from the games community) to use them as a tool to attack their fellow community members over disputes having nothing to do with exploiting, and as a way for developers to shirk their responsibility towards making a better game onto the customers who have no resources or competence or control to do so, and in such a way that ruins the fun for the players.
The typical propaganda definition (by propaganda I mean using words that imply things about "exploits" without justifying these implied relations, which the very name given to them does) is something like:
Exploiting a bug in the game to gain an unfair advantage over other players.
BUG DEFINITION- First of all there is only one kind of programming "bug" that ever leaves the compiler, and that is an error where someone simply misunderstood what the effect of something they programmed into the computer would be. They are not typos, for these are caught by the compiler. An example might be, if I made a calculator program and switched the multiply and addition buttons so that one did the others function. In this case since we know what multiplication and addition are we might recognize that this is probably an error. But then again if we always knew exactly what the result should be we wouldn't need to use a calculator would we? This is symbolic of the situation with mmorpgs. Except in mmorpgs there isn't a predefined thing that the program is supposed to do that everyone agrees on, its completely up to the developer. So not only do we not know what the program SHOULD be like, as in how the developer should strive to make the program, we also do not know that the developer is working towards this goal rather than say, a goal that he believes best benefits himself instead. So then we must ask, if we do not know what exactly the program is supposed to be like, how then do we know what is a bug? In many cases, we do not.
In a few cases however, it seems obvious at least that something wasn't intended. A video game world, even if it is not realstic, usually has some aspects of realism that make it so that people can relate, and the things that aren't realistic usually have in game explanations. You wouldn't normally expect to be able to fly for example without some explanation for this in the game such as a jetpack or magic etc. If you can do something without explanation such as this its a sign it wasn't intended by the developer (unless the game didn't have explanations for anything and/or wasn't to be even remotely based on real life)
But just because something wasn't intended by the developer, how do we know it will be considered a bug? Truth be told there are probably tons of things the developers did not specifically realize could or could not be done in the game. They do not create complex mathematical models of their mmorpg worlds with which to predict every physical strategy or buisness tactic or etc that. This part of determining an exploit causes much more trouble then just trying to determine weather it was something directly intended it or not. In one or two cases it seems obvious for one because every developer so far has considered it an exploit (item duping) Other than this, people rely on some kind of argument claiming bug exploits "ruin the game". But lets face it, all parties making this assesment are heavily biased. Players want to claim things are exploits that allow other players to beat them profusely. Developers seem to want to claim things are exploits that cause people to get bored of the game faster. What players wanted to call exploits would be irrelevant if not for the fact that they use such players viewpoint to get them to accept banning players for it.
The truth is the players are nowhere near qualified to determine what is going to make for the best game and if the developers were so good at it there wouldn't be so many unsuccesful games out there, and the succesful ones wouldn't have so many balance difficulties. Neither of these parties really care about "the best game" they care about their own fun or succesfulness of their game. So relying on this type of criteria to determine which unintended parts of the game are going to be labeled "exploits" is haphazard at best. What are we supposed to do? Refrain from using anything that allows us to defeat other players so they will not get mad at us? Refrain from doing anything that allows us to get farther in the game because the developers don't ever want us to get to the end and get bored? Or is it we are only allowed to do things which let us beat players occasionally or proceed slowly through the game? Please.
Developer frame of mind -The very name exploit was obviously chosen for its bad connotation, which immediately should show an unobjective approach and anger on the part of those writing this definition. I believe it is obvious that the source of this anger is the companies frustration at their own failure to create a stable game enviornment, anger that they are now attacking their paying customers out of. Then there is the commonly used "unfair advantage" clause.
Also how an exploit can be claimed to be an unfair advantage, and be somehow differentiated from any other tactic in the game (which perhaps only a few people have discovered as of yet and it allows them to defeat people who have not yet discovered it) is completely beyond me. Everyone has the ability to discover the exploit or learn it from friends. Everyone has the ability to use it (and switch characters to do so if needed). So how is it an unfair advantage? You might say because its against the rules, but obviously this doesn't JUSTIFY the fact that it IS against the rules, or even defines which things are exploits and which are not. If it doesn't do either of those, then why is it in the definition?
SUMMARY: Basically looking at the situation as a whole, bugs are basically just anything the developer didn't intend and decides he doesn't like. Therefore an exploit is a tactic the developer didn't expect and doesn't like. This is the equivalent of the poor sport in any other game where AFTER you do something he didn't expect and win he yells 'HEY You cheated!!!" except he actually has the ability to ban you from the game for this. The developer doesn't have the same interests as another player but he still has interests that don't help the players.
PS: I can't edit the poll so ignore the second response and just pick the 5th if you want to say yes for a different reason and post the reason.
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Comments
Well my point was that what makes the best game isn't REALLY the criteria used to determined what is and what is not an exploit. Both the developers and the players have their own biased reasons for wanting to call something an exploit that probably have nothing to do with what makes the game better.
IE its not like the devs are like honestly "OK After very careful evaluation we have determined that (insert some action) is harmful to the game if everyone does it. Therefore we determine that should this be possible it will be against the rules and we will reluctantly ban anyone who does it"
Its more like they are thinking "DAMN IT they thought of a way to get around our rediculous time sinks and repetitive levels! Now how will we get rich?!?! Ban any of them you can catch!"
And the players are thinking "DAMN, He killed me!! What did he do that I can call cheating??"
So yeah if they specifically notate each exploit then it gets rid of the problem of not knowing what will and will not be considered an exploit and thats alot better than it is now because players wouldn't have to worry about things that aren't listed.
But are you saying it wouldn't bother you if the developer did this? (simplified version of my point):
You have to walk from point A to point B. One way there is a moutain trail that would take 15 minutes of walking around to get to point B. The other way you walk straight there and it would take you less than a minute. The developer says if you do not walk the moutain trail it is an exploit and you will be banned. (because obviously he want's you to play for as long as possible)
Obviously a developer wouldn't do this, but only because its too obvious not because it doesn't do anything to make the game better. In reality theyre just better at hiding it.
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An exploit is a cheat. If you do something not intended to be done in a game to better yourself your "cheating" to get an advantage. Everyone else has to walk around this mountain. If you found a way to cheat your way over it and use it your exploiting that the mountain has a bug in it to get yourself a advantage over other players. The devs arn't doing this to make you play as long as possible. While your mountain exploit wouldn't really call for a banning its still a exploit/cheat.
Mythic started in their game they intend to ban a few thousand players who have been found using exploits. That means a TUN of money gone for them because they want to remove exploiters from the game.
The main exploiters are people who dupe items/money. Also exploits like trying to and getting a kryat dragon stuck on a factory so a player can solo him without being attacked. Or bio enginering a level 0 pet rancor. (these last two are known bugs that have been removed from the game)
My point is. Play your mmoprg as the devs intended.
-Selek
-Selek
In most of the online games I've played (RPGs being the ones that even take time to deal with exploiters) they did have a written out definition of what they consider to be an exploit. Generally, it sounds something like " Exploiting: Using a known flaw in the game coding or geometry to give yourself an obvious advantage over others. "
Also, in those games you are supposed to get warning for -each- seperate offense. But, if you choose to ignore the warning about hopping in that one spot on the mountain where no one can reach you and spending hours killing everyone and everything without a care over and over - then you will be punished. Generally, it goes: Warning, 3 day suspension, 7 day suspension, ban. If you haven't figured it out in four goes, time to give up.
MMOs work differently from other games, when you buy the game - you're really only paying for the rights to an account, nothing else. So are the 10k+ others who play with you. When you use your right to create an account, you accept various policies and agreements by the company to play -their software- on -their hardware.- When you accept those agreements, you're basically giving them all the impunity they need to do whatever they feel is best for the game.
I'm not sure if you're trying to justify the use of exploits to power yourself through a game, but I've never seen an MMO that used volunteer GMs (generally, they have requirements and get payed with game accounts or cash) let alone any game that gave people the power to ban on a whim.
MMOs use the same crime and punishment, though a bit rudimentary, as everyday life. They have set rules and guidelines that you are TOLD to follow, and then they have the unspoken law (some of us call this common sense) that tells you A) if you know something isn't working the way its supposed to, report it, and
if you don't - and take advantage of the problem, expect to be caught and punished. I don't think anyone can honestly say "Ohh, the devs added a new gold duping system! All I have to do is wait for a huge lag spike, drop the gold and 4 items - then pick them up as the lag passes and get two of each back! Sure is a long system, but thanks Devs!"
So, really - if you're exploiting, there is a 98% chance that you know what you're doing. You know that its giving you an advantage that isn't supposed to be there, and thats the entire reason you're doing it. To say that its unfair to ban you because they didn't write out "Don't use the hole in the wall to make yourself invisible so you can kill all the other players without them knowing where you are!" is justifying the wrong.
Exploits can ruin a game, especially for those who abuse item dupping and what not before it gets repaired. And it destroys the games economy and wrecks the game for new players. But more to the point, it's the devs game, they make the rules. If they say it's an exploit, then it's an exploit. If they say don't do it, then don't do it. It's that basic. Nothing else to think or argue about. And I've seen exploits in games that allow specific classes to attack others from a position keeping them safely out of the pvp zone. As a result they can't be attacked. Were they creative geniuses for figuring it out? no, they stumbled upon it by accident. Did it make them better in PvP? nope, it was the equivilant to using a god code in an fps. And they sat around griefing people all day, and when they got nailed for it they sat there crying about they didn't deserve the suspension cause they didn't make the bug... It's a load of crap. Thier rules. follow em or don't play.
Out of curiosity, have you ever been banned for using an exploit? Cause it really sounds like your trying to defend some of your own actions here.
My god, Kriminal99, I can't believe you are starting this up again. This pathetic crusade to make cheating "legal" so you can cheat without worring about getting banned. Please, do not give this lame lie of "I never used an exploiting knowingly" because after all your posts in your previous thread more than implied that you were using exploits knowingly. You threw accusations around at the people disagreeing with you to be stupid but yet you don't have the intelligence to figure out what is an exploit and a regular bug or maybe its you just don't have the concept of what is right or wrong. Now you are coming up with this stupid propaganda theory that boggles our minds. You have really gone into the outer world of conspiracy theorists who believe that the Illuminati are real and space aliens control our governments. You speak of them taking responsibility but how about you taking responsibility for your own actions and don't cheat? Ah but no its not cheating to you because you have no concept of right or wrong correct? I would hate to play a game of monopoly with you because you have no idea how to play by the rules.
Now look at your poll. You accused the one in your previous that somebody posted to be biased except it was totally unbiased. You poll is an example of what is biased. You know exactly what we were saying when we argued with you in your previous thread so why didn't you put this option?
Yes, exploits are easy to define by the players and after one warning should be banned unless a totally obvious bug like server crashing or money duping which then should be banned immediately.
Why didn't you put something like that in there? Could it have been you really never just got it? You brain couldn't understand our examples of how exploits ruin the game? By the way the option I listed is what I voted for.
I'm going to state this again but in capital letters. This is why they can ban and I plus most of the people who play the games prefer this so we can play without exploit using people just like you.
THE DEVELOPERS OWN THE SERVER. YOU PAY RENT TO BE ON THAT SERVER JUST LIKE RENTING AN APARTMENT. LIKE APARTMENTS THERE ARE RULES YOU MUST ABIDE BY TO RENT THERE. IF YOU BREAK THE RULES, YOU CAN BE BANNED/EVICTED FROM THE PREMISES. IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THESE RULES, DO NOT RENT THERE.
Okay now I am going to ask you this question again that you refused to answer in your last post.
In the example I gave of the pyreal scarab money bug in AC, how do you fix the economy after people exploited it?
In case you didn't remember: The pyreal scarab is the most expensive scarab. If you buy several thousand of them, the cost actually rolled over so you could buy thosands of scarabs for less than 10 pyreal(the currency of AC). This issue never came up before because nothing else you can buy costs enough to actually roll over. Three days went by before the developers discovered the problem and billions of pyreal was in the market and the economy was shot. They had to roll back the servers 3 days. We all lost 3 days of playing which included items, earned money and exp. Most of us never was able to replace some special items we got in those 3 days. Most of us lost a bunch because people used an obvious bug. Try to tell me buying thousands of pyreal scarabs for less than 10 pyreal is not obvious.
Wow you really have a deep, furious hatred towards devs huh? If anyone here is biased, its you. Many devs are gamers themselves who want to create something fun and balanced, and its kinda insulting to assume that all they want is for players to grind as long as possible. You constantly make out devs to be petty and miserly, while you try to make banned exploiters look like victims. Its not going to work. Its clear that you have some personal connection to this issue, if you think every dev team for every game is like this. If you're only referring to the Neocron devs, then do so, otherwise avoid the sweeping generalizations.
Your poll, as unclear and wordy as it is, also shows that most people say yes, exploiting is a bannable offense. The devs should be trusted in defining what an exploit is because they're not playing the game (at least not the way the average gamer is), and have less of a reason to favor one advantage over another. Your claim that they dislike exploits simply because they want to slow gamers down and suck more money out of them, is extremely biased. SOMEONE has to determine what an exploit is... otherwise something obviously wrong and unbalanced can be argued for by anyone. Its the devs game, its their rules.
Genjing, there is another thing about the last quote you got there.
"Its more like they are thinking "DAMN IT they thought of a way to get around our rediculous time sinks and repetitive levels! Now how will we get rich?!?! Ban any of them you can catch!""
This shows that Kriminal99 is just not thinking. He is saying that the devs are banning people because they level faster so they won't play as long which means they make less money. Do you see the problem there? Kriminal99 thinks this is good logic. Yes ban them so they stop playing immediately instead of playing a bit longer. They make more money off people banned then allowing them to keep their subscription running? Somebody who thinks like this is not a good person to make a rationale discussion.
It is hard to defend your standpoint as an exploiter, and try to defend your right to exist without the need to follow a simple set of rules...
But you did a remarkably bad job trying...
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
Oh no...
Not another Kriminal99 Logical Argument thread...
The last one was everything but logical...
Great...another of Krim's "I love to hear myself talk" threads. For those who feel like "debating" Krim (We all know he is a Master Debator as he has repeatedly stated) I'd advise against it. He will quote you many many many many did I mention many? times over and then spew a load of non sensical babble who's only objective is to twist the origional point beyond recognition.
He will then claim he answered you when in fact throughout the whole time he just skirted the issue in his reply. No amount of obfusification on his part will ever change that. Should he feel the "debate" is not going his way he will then begin to denigrate you or your post or twist words.
Edited to add: P.S the poll you have running is heavily biased towards your point of view. Read the wording on each choice. Now your poll basically says that if you feel it's ok to ban exploiters(and also go against your point of view) you also feel that the game is bad. What about my choice of I feel it's ok to ban exploiters and that it's good to do so and that it infact enhances the game?
Basically as he has stated in the last 2-3 posts on this topic is that he was caught exploiting in a game and is now here seeking attent....eerr justification.
In this specific example it is supposed to be clear that I am not talking about a way to warp through the moutain. I mean that a player can obviously just walk by the moutain instead of over it. I already made clear in the first post why the concepts of "bug", "cheating" and "unfair advantage" are not valid arguments for exploit policy. Everyone else only has to walk over the moutain because the developers told them they have to. I can't possibly imagine what your assertion that the devs dont do things to make you play longer came from. Obviously you haven't played many mmorpgs with their endless supply of time sinks and repetitive content.
This example was not particuarly complicated. Its purpose was to make more obvious to other people what is already obvious to me - the rediculousness of exploit banning policies. To show how A) How developers can use them as an excuse not to fix problems or rather things they don't like as quickly (possibly making people play longer than they would as they wait for fixes)
Did you just read the poll or something and not the post... I know most games have exploit definitions like the one you cited. However that is not at all clearly defined, and nor do they have any basis for claiming it to be an advantage over other players other than the fact that they just arbitrarily decided it was against the rules. About the "known flaw in coding or geometry" most games really don't limit it to only known flaws, and while using coding and geometry flaws rather than the word bug may seem more specific it really is not. Like I said the only "flaw" not caught by the compiler are logic errors on the part of the programmer, not typos.
I really understand contracts quite well, I also understand free market economies. Sure if you agree to let them the company can do whatever they want. The point is to get companies to not ask for this and people to not agree to it so stuff about contracts really has no place in this thread.
Neocron had volunteer gms (and still does). Real life law has is nothing like MMORPG law because real life law is in place to prevent real problems, and exploits are certainly not immoral. The closest real life law to a anti exploit policy is speeding, except that speeding has actually been proven to have ill effects on a community. (speed relative to the slowest moving cars that is)
There are games designed to model hacking. Besides this things like the gold exploit you mentioned can happen without someone even being aware of it. Finally as I pointed it out, its no coincidence that every person trying to make your point uses the exact same exploit: item duping. Its really well known that many developers consider it an exploit and thats the number one reason its considered obvious.
Try to understand something. You consider exploits to be obvious "98%" of the time because so far to date you have not been accused of exploiting for something you thought wasn't. Meanwhile I have been accused of exploiting in lower quality games for things that were quite obviously not to me. I don't come here and expect other people to be able to absorb my experience through osmosis, I make very clear and logical arguments as to how holes in the definitions of exploits CAN allow this to happen, and to the intelligent person this is all it takes to realize there is a problem. Your lack of experience with less reasonable companies doesn't make me wrong. I could absorb your experiences and my opinion wouldn't change, whereas if you absorbed mine you would realize I was right. But none of this "memory absorbing" is necessary because these things can always simply be evaluated logically.
I refuse to use some criteria which says "If I win more than twice in a row I must find something I am doing and stop and let other people call it cheating because other people are sore losers"
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Krim, this is just a long winded rationalization. Like a 5 year old, you want what you want. It's cheating, we all understand it.
If it's so bad then create your own game.
Here is what should happen to those who are about be permanently banned:
1. Exploiter extrordinaire and all around foul mouthed avatar Greiefar37173pwner logs in for another day of exploitation and general griefing/scamming.
2. Said avatar portals into favorite town in which to scam and practice his misspelling of cuss words. Unknown to him his name has been enhanced with BAN ALERT added to it.
3. As he starts to mouth off, pieces of his armor start to disappear. People gather around and start to bet whether his helm will disappear before his leg armor does.
4. Greiefar37173pwner finally noticed he is now nekkid of all of his phat leet exploited and scammed armore.
5. Greiefar37173pwner starts to panic when as he watches the count of his hard 'earned' money starts to slowly but with ever increasing speed plummet downward. When this happens a rolling thunder can be heard by all nearby. When they look up they see what first looks like rain. Quickly they realised it is the griefers ill-gotten gains raining down upon them as if from heaven.
Greiefar37173pwner goes crazy trying to pickup all of his fast dwindling cash while at the same time trying to cuss everyone out for picking up "his' money.
Unfortunately for Greiefar37173pwner, he now finds out that he can not pick up a single item.
6. The final blow comes when a world broadcast is sent out.
" Let it be known to all who hear these words. For numerous crimes against civility and the almighty power that is Me (Your all around nice guy of a God unless you anger me), ZORK FLATHEAD." I hearby release all known and unknown holdings of the condemned and soon to be banished Greiefar37173pwner. All of this vermins former holdings are now available to who ever gets there first. The location of what used to be Greiefar37173pwner's mansion is at 4437, 163445. Good Hunting."
Let it be known to all. Whether you hear these words or only hear of them. "Don't PISS me off!"
"Goodbye, Greiefar37173pwner "
---------
Wu Name? Misunderstood Menace
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
Thomas Jefferson
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Um... remember the RPG in MMORPG? This isn't a piece of machinery its a game world. Just because it may balance the game or whatnot, doesn't mean its not stupid and doesn't belong. Item duping my ass, i don't care how advanced a sci-fi world is, magically creating new items out of thin air just by shuffling/stacking/throwing them a certain way is retarded. So is walking through walls, or other exploits that are obviously defying the laws of nature/physics in the game world.
One notable quality of some exploits is that they don't make sense in the context of the world. Thats why a strategy like standing on a house and shooting mobs who can't fight back, or inherent balancing issues isn't an exploit. They are unintended strategies, which are different from exploits for this reason. No flying dwarves, magical guns that never run out of bullets, or creating money out of thin air. There is no justification for an exploit that defies and contradicts reason, such as item/equipment duping or geographical glitches.
There are still many gamers out there who are interested in role-playing in a virtual world. Its not all about min-maxxing, being the best or accomplishing the most. Exploiting isn't just an unintended strategy, it ruins the RP environment by exposing the mechanical faults of the game. How can one expect to get drawn into the game, if people are duplicating items and walking through solid walls left and right? Min-maxxers and powergamers of course have their rights to play the game the way they want too... but not when it breaks the environment of the game.
Every person acts of their own motivations, and it is their right and moral responsibility to do so. It is not hatred, simply lack of naievity. Some developers do not create games with grinds because they realize its not the best way to be succesful creating games. Even in the case where the developer wants to create the best game for its own sake, he is still working towards a feeling of self-respect or respect from others that only HE feels. The universe is responsible for any good people do to one another by making us depend on each other to feel good about ourselves.
The truth is that advocates of anti-exploit policies want to make out devs to be godlike diviners of truth, and completely objective and fair judges. This is completely naive.
The poll shows that most people ON THE FORUMS (not by much) say yes exploting (as it is defined now) is a bannalbe offense. Like I said before there is no indication to believe that the forum is representive of all people/mmorpg players.
All that is required to screw up the system is that the devs have some interest other than creating the perfect game, or some lack of ability to discover what is the overall best for the game and aggressive action against customers is no longer justified. All mmorpg devs have both of these.
Your right someone has to determine how the game should be made, its design, what the design should physically prevent. Your right this should be the devs. Your wrong if you think the devs should be able to ban customers because they fail in these goals.
Actually no because if the company bans 1 out of 100 then the other 99 is afraid to step outside of their house without asking the devs if its not exploiting first. If banning exploiters had no preventitive effect then it would be totally useless. I thought this was blatantly obvious oO... guess I was wrong....
Its hard to defend your standpoint as someone with a valid opinion, when you completely out of the blue assume that I am an exploiter rather than just someone who realizes how useless the policy is. The topic is weather the rules serve any purpose not weather I have to follow them.
But you did a remarkably bad job trying...
Or maybe you were just someone that argued with me and couldn't win so you are angry and hoping to decieve readers into believing something that isn't true. This is a perfect example of the same propaganda devs use when calling exploits exploits, and in claiming they are an unfair advantage.
A person or company misuses any benefit of the doubt placed in his words to decieve someone into believing whatever best benefits himself.
Sorry the old thread misteriously dissapeared not much I can do about it. Regarding the dead horse, I regret to inform you that the world does not revolve around you and a topic is not a dead horse on a public forum just because you are tired of arguing about it.
And in actuality the dead horse analogy is itself quite useless, because its supposed to represent an argument that no longer effects reality. But in truth there is infinite value in learning from ones mistakes and from ones enviornment. And if you think that changing the opinion of many gamers through debate has no effect on the game market you are mistaken.
To be honest if other people who would only post completely devoid of logic choose not to respond to the thread because they know I will point it out, I don't have a problem with it. Anyone who knows how to debate and disagreed with me would still recognize that most arguments here were circular or invalid and would not blame me for ignoring them.
The only time I resort to insulting other people is after they have insulted me about 5000 times. Then I insult them once mildly in response. Hey nobody's perfect. Actually I usually will continue to point out why arguments are invalid or circular no matter how many times the useless argument has already been used just because I know that everyone is not going to read through the whole thread and see were other people said the same thing and I debunked it.
I have no clue what you mean about my poll. It says basically that if you agree with exploiting you either think it still needs to be more clearly defined or you don't care that its vaguely defined or that devs may not base them on whats best for the game. I already made it clear before the poll that exploits are not as yet clearly defined and there is no way to know if developers have the games (players) best interest at heart.
I was never banned for exploiting, stop trying to decieve readers because you can think of no honest way to debate.
Funny seemed like a pretty clear argument to me. Wonder if you even read it?
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Thank you for demonstrating the maturity level of your camp. Tell me, what do you think makes you any different then this random person?
If you want to know how I would classify this as wrong against the griefer, the answer is because you would have drastically altered the rules of the game with the sole purpose of causing this person to lose so that you could feel good. Now THATS cheating. What motivates you to do this? You can't even really point out why pking or exploiting is wrong yet you think you are justified in acting 10x WORSE than the person you claim is immoral.
The sad truth is you are probably just someone who died once and harbor anger rather than just learn and adjust.
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You once said that a majority of mmorpg players agreed with you. If not on forums, then where? Your only complaint to my poll, that clearly showed you as the only supportor of your cause, was that it was biased. Now this new poll pretty much shows the same thing, and you're backtracking by saying the forums don't represent all mmorpg players? In our pages and pages of arguments, i have yet to find a single person that agrees with you completely. One person (most likely you) voted for no banning in any case. The other 16 so far have ok'd banning as a form of punishment.
You are not a dev, nor do you know all of them. If all mmorpg devs have ulterior motives, then how do you explain Richard Garriot, who despite having the ability to use his reputation to gain easy money... intead risks everything by creating Tabula Rasa, an extremely underhyped game based on unproven game design? Just another way to make money? I don't think so. Many of the great game devs started out making games not because they dreamed of being millionaires, but because they just loved games. You act like you totally understand everything about a group of people, but you really, really don't. You're the naive one here, if you think your rebellious sage act is working.
And one last thing... this was stated before as well.... a MMORPG is like a nightclub. They are property owned by individual(s) who can ban you from the premises for any number of reasons. It doesn't matter if you paid money to get in. And it may not always be fair or justified... but too bad. If you want to play, but are unwilling to accept the possible punishments for law-breaking then you are free to boycott that game all you want. The poll shows that banning is an acceptable punishment. And the devs are the only logical people to wield that power.
Yeah, you don't want people like me in charge of that.
See, I would't ban ya for exploiting, I'd just send my friend Shades over to yer house to have a wee chat, and a spot of tea.
And there you have it. No more bannings for exploiting. You win, Sir. Congratulations on your impressive victory, you master debater, you. Ignoring things that are inconvenient, and just making things up are excellent tactics that I shall endeavour to use whenever possible in the future.
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Yeah, you don't want people like me in charge of that.
See, I would't ban ya for exploiting, I'd just send my friend Shades over to yer house to have a wee chat, and a spot of tea.
And there you have it. No more bannings for exploiting. You win, Sir. Congratulations on your impressive victory, you master debater, you. Ignoring things that are inconvenient, and just making things up are excellent tactics that I shall endeavour to use whenever possible in the future.
Um... what?
I want bannings for exploiting. If you're going to be an ass direct it towards the right person. And i ignore the sections of his posts that i already know his answer to. We argued this for what 15 pages on the old thread? Everything else is just saying the same crap over and over.
I forgot the sarcasm tags again, I guess.
It was directed at Krim, so don't go getting all in a huff. I was saying that he should be gratefull that getting banned is all the devs would do, unlike someone such as myself would do to him for exploiting.
In otherwords, I was effectively agreeing with you.
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I forgot the sarcasm tags again, I guess.
It was directed at Krim, so don't go getting all in a huff. I was saying that he should be gratefull that getting banned is all the devs would do, unlike someone such as myself would do to him for exploiting.
In otherwords, I was effectively agreeing with you.
Remember, the internet is full of idiots like me so be sure to use those tags.
Many games have items or magic which allow you to walk through walls. The only thing that makes these things seem out of place is the fact that they are not consistent with the developers design of the world.
Its funny you should bring this up, because usually when something was considered an exploit and I was told to stop in Neocron, the reason I though it was obviously not an exploit (besides the fact that many of these things were so obvious they had to know it could be done) was that they were realistic. For example poking out behind cover to shoot mobs, careful mathematic analyzation of market items to see how them and tradeskills could be used to make money, having myself shot or beaten to toughen myself up (martial artists do this), placing artillery turrets on the roof of a building rather than on the ground, etc... but anyways.
You are claiming that some exploits are bad because they damage the consistency of a game. I mean thats basically what the roleplay value of a game is... consistency. For instance, people like me cannot take games where people fly around and shoot fireballs arbitrarily with no explanation because it seems rediculous, but put those same abilities in a sci fi setting, or a in depth fantasy world with a made up explanation and I think its cool. Why? Because I know that these things cannot happen in real life, and I need some kind of explanation for them if they do happen to accept them. Most fantasy games do not try and make up a very in depth system of explanation for the magical abilities of the users because its hard to think of one. But if a fantasy game does have really in depth explanation for its difference in physical laws that allow people to do that stuff I find it interesting to explore the world.
Moving to exploits which actually DO seem out of place for the world, well following what I have seen they simply need a viable explanation to explain why they can be done in the game and not in real life for me to take them seriously. Well obviously we have the explanation that they are part of computer games. THey have been in computer games since the dawn of time. Its kind of like something thats totally seperate from the game, it doesn't really even effect the roleplay any more than stopping to get something to eat when you are playing. Its not the same effect that say having a poor story behind your world has because the player knows its not part of the story.
If you tried to use the same excuse for why a game has a poor story its like "ok I see why but now where do I go to get involved in a strong story" The bottom line is exploits do about the same amount of damage to roleplay as getting up to go to the bathroom during play, which is to say not much.
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