Originally posted by Kriminal99 And getting angry and crying sploiter after everyone who beats you in pvp is not much different than this....
I am glad to know we've played so many games together that you know so much about me, and my style of play. We must be the very bestest of friends, what with all that you know about me.
Or are you some psycho stalker type? Are you that guy I keep finding hiding in the bushes, wearing womens underwear?
How does it not make sense? We are talking about WEATHER OR NOT the policies should be in mmorpgs.
According to the title of this thread you made, you intended to talk about if MMORPG companies should ban exploiters. I came at you with the fact that according to the law they can. Since the players agree to a contract to play by the rules set by the companies. Now you want to talk about if the companies can set their own rules aka policies? You can argue against if the policies should be in mmorpgs until you pass out. The thing is they are in mmorpgs right now. They have been in the past. And they will be in the future. There is no current court case challening this. MMORPG companies will continue making, setting, and issuing the rules players must abide by in their games. If you do not like this you can simply refuse to play whatever game it is, or all MMORPGs.
Until you file your own lawsuite vs each MMORPG company to change this, then it is a waste of time for you to keep ranting about this...... because it will not change.
If they serve no purpose then a game can be made without them. This game will attract more people. And then games that still have them will die off.
It is your personal opinion they have no purpose. It is the opinion of the companies they DO have a purpose. Guess who's decision stands? You can always make your own MMORPG and run it the way you want. ALL the best selling MMORPGs have their own policies, rules, ban exploiters whenever they wish to. And they are not in any danger of dying off. And they have been attracting people - thus the reason why they are the best selling MMORPGs.
Who cares what developers that don't know any better have done so far?
You can think whatever you want about the game DEVs. The fact is they are making the games, and you are not. They are making the rules and you are not. They are making millions in profits, and you are not. They got to their positions because of what they know. You claim to know better than them? Why not get a job in the MMORPG industry and walk the walk?
You do know that PEOPLE are behind mmorpg companies and not omniscient beings right? Often people with invalid opinions and lack of objective logical reasoning skills. Others are open to new ideas. I fail to see what the relevance of repeatedly pointing to the fact that up to this point mmorpgs have exploit clauses.
People are not behind MMORPG companies. Neither are god-like beings. Money is what is behind MMORPG companies. The companies do not care what 1 player thinks about the rules they make. Nor about 1 former player lamenting over how he can get banned for exploiting. MMORPGs have made money, are making money, using the rules they set and make. Rules that players agree to abide by. Rules that they will ban players for breaking. Again, if you do not like facing getting banned for exploiting, do not play the game. Do not give them your money.
I believe people sued for losing items to some kind of crash in a different game or something, I don't remember which one someone else here was telling me about it.
You "believe" and you "don't remember". Then do not try to make it a point. The case won by Mythic did happen, and is remembered by many.
You are merely fabricating an enviornment where mmorpg devs are not responsible for thier negligence. This is not reality, the law is clear in such matters. Just because in one cases the circumstances did not merit payment of the players doesn't mean that in other cases they would not.
If you break the rules that you yourself agree to abide by, then yes the game company is off the hook. It is not negligence at all on the part of the game company. It is negligence on your part for agreeing to the rules, then getting mad when you break them and are held to them.
I guarantee you that if I was banned from Neocron for what I did and wanted to start a class action suit, if it was held in america I would represent myself and win.
ALL mmorpg companies do not discuss in public the reason(s) for banning a player. Only you and the game company for the game you got banned from would know exactly what happened. There is zero chance I, or other posters, or the lurkers, will ever know 100% of what actually happened. So we will never know for sure what happened between you and whatever game company you had a run in with.
In addition, your case is super-rare. You complaints, your rant, is super-rare. 1 player supporting "Logical Arguement against banning exploiter policies" vs hundreds of thousands to millions of players supporting the opposite - supporting player exploiter banning policies.
Think about what you just said for a minute. You said that if an earlier case found in favor of the players it doesn't matter because the most recent case sets the precedent. If that was true how could this case have been resolved differently then the other? Precedent has value, but not over the law. If one court misinterprets the law then its precedent is useless. ANd anyways precedent isn't as general as you are trying to make it. If there is a slight difference between the two cases there could be a different resolution. If a company runs around banning players for no reason the courts WILL draw the line.
Think about what you also said - laws, court cases, can be admended, overturned, appealed. That is how new precidents are set. How new precidents defeat old precidents. But no new precident has been set after the case won by Mythic. Mythic's case has not been appealed, or overturned. Thus it still stands.
Precedent has been overturned plenty of times.
I fully agree. But until it gets overturned, it still stands.
Like regarding slavery for instance.
Slavery? In what country? During what time period? If you are talking about American Slavery... it was not the courts that changed it. It was a little war that changed it. A little war in which the most Americans ever in the history of all American wars, died. Bad example. And again, Mythic's case has not been overturned, admended, or appealed. Thus it still stands.
If a judge repeatedly ignored precedent without a really good reason for it yeah he would be disbarred.
Nice of you to fully agree.
If you think that some yahoo judge can come up with a rediculous decision that completely contradicts the law and then everyone has to follow that you are wrong. Thats what law is all about, everything looks like its set in stone to the layman, but its lawyers jobs to show that law was is being misinterpreted by the other side.
The rules, Terms and Service, and License Agreements made by each MMORPG company do NOT break the law. There is no "yahoo judge coming up with rediculous decisions that contradict the law". It is legal for the companies to have banning policies for players who exploit. It is leagal for them to ban exploiters if they want to.
Actually you misread what I said. I said that a game with no banning policy and no exploits is obviously better than a game with exploits and a banning policy.
There is no such thing as a MMORPG game with no exploits. Every single one has had to deal with them. BTW ..... almost ALL mmorpgs have banning policies. If you do not like this, do not play them.
If a game has no exploit policy, How could it possibly have any exploits?
Name me a single MMORPG that does not have a policy about exploiters? Exploits are unintentional occurances. Thus it is impossible to have a game with no exploits because the companies do not know when, if, and where they will happen. No game company says "let's on purpose make our game with exploits in it! Then ban paying players for using them!"
It might have things that are in the game that the developers didn't intend, but they won't be called exploits. If the developers don't like them they will simply change them. It is the lack of banning players that makes the first one better not the lack of exploits.
It is the game company that defines whatever happens in their game as an exploit or not. Not you. You do not define if something that happens in game, is an exploit or not. If it was not intended, the game company can call it an exploit ... or not. It is up to them. It is their game. Their rules - that you agreed to.
Man I said this before to someone but it really applies to you more than anyone else. You need to recognize that even if you are some kind of mentally subservient manwhore to mmorpg developers it doesn't mean everyone else is.
Stick to responding to my and other poster's points. Not name calling. I have not called you any names. Why are you trying to start calling me names?
It is blatantly obvious that debating mmorpg theory is relevant. If you think you are unqualified to do this then don't say anything. That doesn't mean I am not. What developers have mistakenly chosen to do up to this point has no bearing.
So you decide what the rules are? You are deciding if I and anyone else is qualified? If I and anyone else can or cannot say anything? There is no theory. There is fact. The fact is the law is on the side of the game companies. The fact is the companies set the rules. The fact is everytime you login you yourself agree to abide by their rules. The final fact is your ideas, theories, will not become law right now, or in the future. Again, there are no current appeals, admendments, or overturnings, of the current law and current court decisions.
You did not define the rules in your definition of exploit therefore your definition was utterly useless. Most games do not limit their definition of exploit to specific things, that is the main point of this thread. If they did I agree it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad, but I still think it would be wrong. Exploit policy as it is is the real life equivalent of a law that allows the police to arrest anyone they think is "doing something wrong". It doesn't take a genius to imagine what chaos would ensue from a law such as this.
1. I did define the rules of exploit. It is not my definition. It is THE definition. Here it is again:
An exploit, or exploiter, is anything or anyone who breaks the rules of the Terms of Service, License Agreement, that they theirselves agree to abide by when they click "yes" or "I agree" whenever they login to play a MMORPG. Read the ToS to know exactly what it is you are agreeing to.
2. The police can and do arrest anyone they think is doing something wrong. A nice example is the college protestors in Seattle, Washington, USA roughly 1-2 years ago. Manytimes (in America at least) they just plain shoot them instead of arresting them. As happened recently in New York City with the officer who shot a kid coming out of a door in his apartment building. Or in the state of New Jersey, USA while Whitman was governer and many Black Americans were getting pulled over, and even shot for DWB. (Driving While Black, the term they came up with.) When they do arrest them, it is called probable cause. The person must be released in 24 hours or less if the probable cause cannot be supported with hard evidence. If they do not think someone is doing something wrong, they will not stop them, will not question them.
Well i had another essay post lined up with responses to each and every point but i decided its pointless. Summary version!
Krim has often been accused in Neocron and AO of exploiting when he actually wasn't... but was never actually banned or punished (to my knowledge). Because he is a pussy and his egotistical big head can't handle being talked down to by a mere GM, he reasons that banning is a real danger for anyone who comes across an exploit, even just once by accident. Never mind that he hasn't actually cited a situation where an unintentional one-time exploiter WAS banned, his explanation that its possible is reason enough to completely remove a useful punishment that deters many exploiters from carrying on. Fear of banning is more useful than the act of banning itself. If this punishment is controlled by multiple warnings beforehand and a clear policy, its fully acceptable.
Everyone knows he enjoys twisting words and giving his own versions of other people's posts, so no surprise there.
He somehow thinks he understands each and every one of the individual minds and gaming styles of everyone who disagrees with him. This is shown by his blatant stereotyping of the users on this forum, and attempts to gain leverage by touting how logical his argument is... and also how he's so much more capable of rational thought than we are. Thats called bragging. A tool of the arrogant, which when combined with the stubborness of an ass who thinks he's a psychologist by taking a philosophy course, creates the ultimate ass troll named Kriminal99.
He probably hasn't noticed that many of the people who argue against him, actually have slight differences in agreement among themselves on this issue. Thats because he groups everyone who disagrees with him into the category of naieve sheep who were owned in PvP. I for example, agree that exploiting policies need to clearly be defined and fair warnings given for drastic action to be taken. So far so good, because i believe i do understand the difference between an exploit and unintended strategy in-game, while Krim is sadly unable to tell the difference; thus is afraid of the entire situation. Unfortunately for him, he is the extreme minority, and most mmorpg gamers accept and agree that banning is an appropriate punishment for those who deserve it.
I am glad to know we've played so many games together that you know so much about me, and my style of play. We must be the very bestest of friends, what with all that you know about me. Or are you some psycho stalker type? Are you that guy I keep finding hiding in the bushes, wearing womens underwear?
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No its just obvious from your attitude and the things you say. Next.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Originally posted by Coldmeat I am glad to know we've played so many games together that you know so much about me, and my style of play. We must be the very bestest of friends, what with all that you know about me. Or are you some psycho stalker type? Are you that guy I keep finding hiding in the bushes, wearing womens underwear? ------- No its just obvious from your attitude and the things you say. Next.
Just as obvious that you see only what you want, and pull the rest out of your ass. Like I said in the original thread, never reported anyone, never sent anyone a tell other than to congratulate them on a good fight, or to ask what a particular item they had, or spell they used was, etc. Win or lose in pvp, I don't talk shit. Frankly, outside of guildmates, I don't talk to much of anyone ingame.
Just because I think people that need to cheat are weak, and I despise weakness, isn't the same as being some crybaby. There is about as much correlation between my postings here, and my persona in game, as there is between my posting here, and how I act in the real world. I'm a lot nicer here.
Not that it will make any difference, you'll simply hear what you want to.
Originally posted by xplororor According to the title of this thread you made, you intended to talk about if MMORPG companies should ban exploiters. I came at you with the fact that according to the law they can. Since the players agree to a contract to play by the rules set by the companies. Now you want to talk about if the companies can set their own rules aka policies? You can argue against if the policies should be in mmorpgs until you pass out. The thing is they are in mmorpgs right now. They have been in the past. And they will be in the future. There is no current court case challening this. MMORPG companies will continue making, setting, and issuing the rules players must abide by in their games. If you do not like this you can simply refuse to play whatever game it is, or all MMORPGs. Until you file your own lawsuite vs each MMORPG company to change this, then it is a waste of time for you to keep ranting about this...... because it will not change. It is your personal opinion they have no purpose. It is the opinion of the companies they DO have a purpose. Guess who's decision stands? You can always make your own MMORPG and run it the way you want. ALL the best selling MMORPGs have their own policies, rules, ban exploiters whenever they wish to. And they are not in any danger of dying off. And they have been attracting people - thus the reason why they are the best selling MMORPGs. You can think whatever you want about the game DEVs. The fact is they are making the games, and you are not. They are making the rules and you are not. They are making millions in profits, and you are not. They got to their positions because of what they know. You claim to know better than them? Why not get a job in the MMORPG industry and walk the walk? People are not behind MMORPG companies. Neither are god-like beings. Money is what is behind MMORPG companies. The companies do not care what 1 player thinks about the rules they make. Nor about 1 former player lamenting over how he can get banned for exploiting. MMORPGs have made money, are making money, using the rules they set and make. Rules that players agree to abide by. Rules that they will ban players for breaking. Again, if you do not like facing getting banned for exploiting, do not play the game. Do not give them your money. You "believe" and you "don't remember". Then do not try to make it a point. The case won by Mythic did happen, and is remembered by many. If you break the rules that you yourself agree to abide by, then yes the game company is off the hook. It is not negligence at all on the part of the game company. It is negligence on your part for agreeing to the rules, then getting mad when you break them and are held to them. ALL mmorpg companies do not discuss in public the reason(s) for banning a player. Only you and the game company for the game you got banned from would know exactly what happened. There is zero chance I, or other posters, or the lurkers, will ever know 100% of what actually happened. So we will never know for sure what happened between you and whatever game company you had a run in with. In addition, your case is super-rare. You complaints, your rant, is super-rare. 1 player supporting "Logical Arguement against banning exploiter policies" vs hundreds of thousands to millions of players supporting the opposite - supporting player exploiter banning policies. Think about what you also said - laws, court cases, can be admended, overturned, appealed. That is how new precidents are set. How new precidents defeat old precidents. But no new precident has been set after the case won by Mythic. Mythic's case has not been appealed, or overturned. Thus it still stands. I fully agree. But until it gets overturned, it still stands. Like regarding slavery for instance. Slavery? In what country? During what time period? If you are talking about American Slavery... it was not the courts that changed it. It was a little war that changed it. A little war in which the most Americans ever in the history of all American wars, died. Bad example. And again, Mythic's case has not been overturned, admended, or appealed. Thus it still stands. Nice of you to fully agree. The rules, Terms and Service, and License Agreements made by each MMORPG company do NOT break the law. There is no "yahoo judge coming up with rediculous decisions that contradict the law". It is legal for the companies to have banning policies for players who exploit. It is leagal for them to ban exploiters if they want to. There is no such thing as a MMORPG game with no exploits. Every single one has had to deal with them. BTW ..... almost ALL mmorpgs have banning policies. If you do not like this, do not play them. Name me a single MMORPG that does not have a policy about exploiters? Exploits are unintentional occurances. Thus it is impossible to have a game with no exploits because the companies do not know when, if, and where they will happen. No game company says "let's on purpose make our game with exploits in it! Then ban paying players for using them!" It is the game company that defines whatever happens in their game as an exploit or not. Not you. You do not define if something that happens in game, is an exploit or not. If it was not intended, the game company can call it an exploit ... or not. It is up to them. It is their game. Their rules - that you agreed to. Stick to responding to my and other poster's points. Not name calling. I have not called you any names. Why are you trying to start calling me names? So you decide what the rules are? You are deciding if I and anyone else is qualified? If I and anyone else can or cannot say anything? There is no theory. There is fact. The fact is the law is on the side of the game companies. The fact is the companies set the rules. The fact is everytime you login you yourself agree to abide by their rules. The final fact is your ideas, theories, will not become law right now, or in the future. Again, there are no current appeals, admendments, or overturnings, of the current law and current court decisions.
1. I did define the rules of exploit. It is not my definition. It is THE definition. Here it is again:
An exploit, or exploiter, is anything or anyone who breaks the rules of the Terms of Service, License Agreement, that they theirselves agree to abide by when they click "yes" or "I agree" whenever they login to play a MMORPG. Read the ToS to know exactly what it is you are agreeing to.
2. The police can and do arrest anyone they think is doing something wrong. A nice example is the college protestors in Seattle, Washington, USA roughly 1-2 years ago. Manytimes (in America at least) they just plain shoot them instead of arresting them. As happened recently in New York City with the officer who shot a kid coming out of a door in his apartment building. Or in the state of New Jersey, USA while Whitman was governer and many Black Americans were getting pulled over, and even shot for DWB. (Driving While Black, the term they came up with.) When they do arrest them, it is called probable cause. The person must be released in 24 hours or less if the probable cause cannot be supported with hard evidence. If they do not think someone is doing something wrong, they will not stop them, will not question them.
jeesus how is this complicated? Change the name of the thread to be whatever will let you comprehend it. Should players agree to play games that have banning policies. Should games use anti exploit policies. Whatever use your noodle don't bother me with this mindless nitpicking.
Discussing ideas is never useless. Changing peoples opinions is obviously the first step in changing reality.
The mmorpg companies with banning policies have not died off because there are no alternatives yet, duh. Most mmorpg companies are not going to be intelligent enough or have enough initiative to do things drastically different from what they see other mmorpgs do. THey might do one or two things different that they have an opinion on and thats about it. Someone has already said that new companies have tried not having exploit policies, but the one he mentioned very poorly executed this attempt. I think you need to realize that just because something has been done so far doesn't give it mean it has any value.
I will form my own mmorpg company one day. It doesn't actually take a genius to make a lot of money as a mmorpg dev in today's market. It will when the market has advanced. Right now all it takes is pretty much getting SOMETHING right. There are so many things that mmorpgs lack that anyone can see. An mmorpg could be made using mathematical modeling to perfectly balance the game. None of them seem to do this. Many of them use drastically flawed customer service principles such as having volunteer gms that have authority over players. Many of them fail to understand what makes games fun etc etc. They have failed to tap pvp in a succesful way to keep a game continually fun. Todays companies will not stand a chance in the mmorpg market of tommorow, and it will be people like me that will advance the market to that point.
Oh brother... Ok think for a second here. The first mmorpg designer is sitting in a room. He says "hmm I wonder what the rules should be" Does he think about this before he just arbitrarily writes them? Yes he thinks about them. This is what we are arguing about. Therefore saying that developers have not done something yet is ABSOLUTELY COMPLETELY TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. Do you understand yet? What will it take for this to sink it?
If money is behind mmorpgs, and a company can make more money by attracting more customers without a banning policy then they will stop using banning policies when they figure this out.
I don't see any website links regarding this mythic case. My guess is the case was frivolus and has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
If rules in a contract are completely vague then there is room for interpretation obviously. All exploiter banning policies up to this point have been completely vague and basically allows the company to ban for anything. If a clause was to leave room for the developer to ban players for whatever they wanted then it could be said the whole contract was void for reason of no consideration.
What are you claiming I am lying? Why do you think I am here? Its not that complicated. Neocron gamemasters ran amok claiming people were exploiting for doing the most obvious stuff. Their GM's were community volunteers and were basically using their powers to threaten or ban people for any tactic they convinced themselves was unfair (usually after dieing to someone using it). In some cases it was obvious that the devs directly intended something that the GM's were calling an exploit. The situation demonstrated both the danger of vague exploit definitions and the players motivations for disliking exploiters. It was simply broadcasted over the global chat several times that certain things were exploits usually when the gm tried to get someone in trouble for doing it. When this happened I always argued with the gms. I was never approached by a gm claiming I was exploiting. Where are these wild accusations coming from? As Ive said your just dishonestly trying to project an image onto me so that you don't have to deal with the fact that someone who has done nothing wrong is calling you out for being a sore loser and taking it out on so called "exploiters"
The case is not super rare, many other people played this same game and had the same problems. The fact that exploit definitions are so vague is what allows this to happen, and it needs to be fixed. The world contains billions of people. So far I have seen about 4 or 5 people disagreeing with me, posting completely illogical arguments and mostly just flinging insults and talking about "Griefer exploiters" showing their obvious motivation for their position. In fact the poll I put has a great deal of people agreeing that current exploit policy has major problems with it. So its actually the majority that agrees with me there.
You are right about slavery, I actually meant to refer to persecution of blacks.
I never said it was illegal for companies to have banning policies. The argument is about weather they should, weather it makes sense, whether it has value. Might a case be made by people being banned for these? Yeah because the definition of exploits is so vague. In fact if I am not mistaken are not overly vague clauses in contracts often voided by courts?
You fail to follow any reasoning any further than it helps your argument. As I said in the first post which you obviously did not read, Exploits are not all Unintentional occurences. Only unintentional occurences which developers decide they do not like become exploits. Therefore a game with no exploit policy would have not exploits. Only balance issues. There might be something like item duping though. There are many ways to temporarily stop something like this besides banning players if you need time to fix it. Like diablo 2's premtive system that immediately deletes duped items. The point is the developers have the ability to always think of a better way to prevent/stop/fix exploits and use more resources to do so. Therefore they ARE choosing by negligence to place the exploits in the game.
You keep going on and on with this "they get to decide" crap. What is so difficult here? Do you realize what you are saying? Put yourself in the position of THEY. Then we can talk about the stuff again. Did you not comprehend that this was an implied condition of the argument? We are debating the ideas behind mmorpgs, to realize what the companies SHOULD be doing, or what customers SHOULD be refusing to accept. If everyone started out agreeing with me I wouldn't need to post would I?
I didn't say I wanted to decide whether or not you were qualified. I meant you obviously believe you are not because you keep repeating that companies have not done it so far. I don't know what your point is in repeatedly stating this, I assume you are saying that they must be right just because they are developers or something. Of course ideas become laws (btw what do laws have to do with this) Where do you think rules come from? Do you think they just materialize from thin air? That they are just repeated over and over but noone actually ever designed them?
First of all your definition of exploit I have not seen on any game site. Anyways the definition is useless without the rules it refers to. It serves no purpose in this argument. How is this complicated? The problem is exploits by MOST companies is defined to be something like using a bug in the game to gain an unfair advantage which is way to vague.
If the police go on the street and shoot random people they go to jail. The law doesn't say they can arrest people for "doing something wrong" The law probably says they can arrest people for suspicion of breaking a law. The laws are clearly defined. The whole point of this was to show the danger of unspecific laws which govern and claim to justify aggresive action against people. As you brought up "doing something wrong" to a white supremiscist could mean driving a nice car while black. This is not allowed.
I don't understand what your obsession with the "I agree" button is. MMORPGS exist because of the customers money. Yes if you go into a resturaunt, order and eat a meal you have to pay for it. If the resturaunt does something wrong (not LEGALLY WRONG but MORALY WRONG or WRONG IN THE SENSE OF COMPETITION) then people will stop going there. This is of course dependent on their being resturaunts that do not do anything wrong. One day there will be a bigger better more advanced mmorpg market in which mmorpgs of today would quickly die. This will come because people like me will debate and discover new ideas on how to do things.
Your postion that "if it isn't done already there is no reason to even think about it" serves little purpose. If everyone thought that way we would still be in the stone age worshipping rocks wouldn't we?
PS Sorry for the mean comment, I looked back and realize you have not been flinging insults. When arguing with many people at once it gets harder to keep tabs on who is attacking and who is not. It just seems that you are for some reason totally unwilling to consider any idea that the developers do not consider first.
Originally posted by Genjing Well i had another essay post lined up with responses to each and every point but i decided its pointless. Summary version! Krim has often been accused in Neocron and AO of exploiting when he actually wasn't... but was never actually banned or punished (to my knowledge). Because he is a pussy and his egotistical big head can't handle being talked down to by a mere GM, he reasons that banning is a real danger for anyone who comes across an exploit, even just once by accident. Never mind that he hasn't actually cited a situation where an unintentional one-time exploiter WAS banned, his explanation that its possible is reason enough to completely remove a useful punishment that deters many exploiters from carrying on. Fear of banning is more useful than the act of banning itself. If this punishment is controlled by multiple warnings beforehand and a clear policy, its fully acceptable. Everyone knows he enjoys twisting words and giving his own versions of other people's posts, so no surprise there. He somehow thinks he understands each and every one of the individual minds and gaming styles of everyone who disagrees with him. This is shown by his blatant stereotyping of the users on this forum, and attempts to gain leverage by touting how logical his argument is... and also how he's so much more capable of rational thought than we are. Thats called bragging. A tool of the arrogant, which when combined with the stubborness of an ass who thinks he's a psychologist by taking a philosophy course, creates the ultimate ass troll named Kriminal99. He probably hasn't noticed that many of the people who argue against him, actually have slight differences in agreement among themselves on this issue. Thats because he groups everyone who disagrees with him into the category of naieve sheep who were owned in PvP. I for example, agree that exploiting policies need to clearly be defined and fair warnings given for drastic action to be taken. So far so good, because i believe i do understand the difference between an exploit and unintended strategy in-game, while Krim is sadly unable to tell the difference; thus is afraid of the entire situation. Unfortunately for him, he is the extreme minority, and most mmorpg gamers accept and agree that banning is an appropriate punishment for those who deserve it. The end
I am an intelligent rational being. A system that allows volunteer gms to threaten you and attack you without justification is not in any way rational. Am I more sensitive to it than other people? Yes. Is it because I am a "pussy" or "egotistical"? No. I am someone who has been subjected to the most unfair, hypocritical, emotional, selfish etc behavior since the dawn of my existence. Rather than lash back at the person responsible for this, I chose instead to understand what was going on and forgive the person. If I was to run around acting on my selfish whims and desires like most people I would be killing people right and left. Instead I completely understand people and do not take offense at anything which is not a directly aggresive action against me, and even then I forgive the person as just not knowing any better.
Anyways the fear of banning is exactly what I am talking about that ruins the game. A player wants to excel in the game (not socializer or explorer but the actual players) and the fear of banning works against this desire ruining the fun of the game. Every action must be weighed, not even as much when it is based on something obviously unintended as when it is something that allows the player to be wildly succesful. Exactly what the player wants to be. Yes having a sytsem where the GMs can ban for whatever they want and then just hoping they are responsible is very naive and immoral.
The devs should at very least tell the customers up front exactly what they would be banned for so the customers can accurately decide if the game is worth playing.
Its OBVIOUS what drives many of the opinions against exploiting. Like I said when people are going on about people using exploits to grief and half their posts are examples of this its obvious where their motivations come from. None of these people are producing legitimate arguments, I swear the last like 2 pages have just been little crybabies going "Oh we can't think of any arguments but we don't want to admit were wrong so well just insult Krim and hope it looks like we aren't as incompetent as we really are"
Actually I just said in a post (wasn't it to you?) that you all are completely disagreeing with each other and then still claiming that its everyone against me.
You are ABSOLUTELY wrong that you can tell the difference between an exploit an unintended strategy because no matter what the dev can always say its whichever they feel like. It is not an extreme minority that has seen that this is a problem you only wish it was so because it would make you seem like you know what you are talking about. One day you will probably be accused for something you thought for sure was not a bug and you will probably feel the same way as I. What you don't realize is that it is probably already happening in some games you play, just not to you yet.
Originally posted by Coldmeat
Just as obvious that you see only what you want, and pull the rest out of your ass. Like I said in the original thread, never reported anyone, never sent anyone a tell other than to congratulate them on a good fight, or to ask what a particular item they had, or spell they used was, etc. Win or lose in pvp, I don't talk shit. Frankly, outside of guildmates, I don't talk to much of anyone ingame. Just because I think people that need to cheat are weak, and I despise weakness, isn't the same as being some crybaby. There is about as much correlation between my postings here, and my persona in game, as there is between my posting here, and how I act in the real world. I'm a lot nicer here. Not that it will make any difference, you'll simply hear what you want to. -------
Actually its by logical reasoning that I deduce that many people are so emotionally motivated from losing to people using unexpected strategies. Why did you think people were so emotionally motivated to argue against exploiting again? And by emotionally motivated besides being increadibly resistant to reason I also mean repeatedly resorting to insults and using illogical arguments like calling it griefing or like stealing etc as if exploiting in general was an aggresive act.
You want me to make it obvious and undeniable? Ok. How are "people that need to cheat" weak? Or rather how is exploiting cheating? Elaborate.
The whole argument of "exploits give unfair advantage" directly demonstrates an immature attitude towards competition. Its not an unfair advantage any more than any other strategy. If there is a strategy which you haven't discovered yet that allows someone to kill you it makes you temporarily frusterated. (you as in anyone) How is the anger you attribute to exploits any different then this anger?
You prove it yourself when you claim exploiters are cheaters. You don't call them cheaters simply because they do something against the rules. The rules aren't even specific or clearly defined. You call them cheaters because they beat you and you didn't expect them to. Then you hope that the developers will call them exploiters.
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Neocron gamemasters ran amok claiming people were exploiting for doing the most obvious stuff. Their GM's were community volunteers and were basically using their powers to threaten or ban people for any tactic they convinced themselves was unfair (usually after dieing to someone using it)
This really is an isolated case. In FFXI, the GM's were courtious, and there was no exploit or banning problems. Most people actually found it kinda cool to be threatened by GM's as they got teleported to the cool special prison, and the GM's themselves had super unique armor and this otherwordly haze around them. Not all games have a problem with exploits and banning. Its a system that works when the GM's and devs are good, honest people who are interested in the game. If i had played Neocron, i would have preferred that good reliable GM's be hired, as opposed to taking away powers of the current GM's. Benevolent dictatorship is the most efficient way to get anything done. Am I more sensitive to it than other people? Yes. Is it because I am a "pussy" or "egotistical"? No. I am someone who has been subjected to the most unfair, hypocritical, emotional, selfish etc behavior since the dawn of my existence.
Awwwwwwwww. ..... this is exactly why you are the irrational and biased one here. Most mmorpg gamers arn't treated this shitty, and have no problem with exploits, understanding exactly what is ok and what isn't. Most of us don't live in constant fear of unintended exploits and banning, which is why no one agrees with you. My suggestion would be to try a game where the GM/devs and the players live in harmony, and learn to open your heart and love your fellow man once again. Anyways the fear of banning is exactly what I am talking about that ruins the game. A player wants to excel in the game (not socializer or explorer but the actual players) and the fear of banning works against this desire ruining the fun of the game. Every action must be weighed, not even as much when it is based on something obviously unintended as when it is something that allows the player to be wildly succesful. Exactly what the player wants to be. Yes having a sytsem where the GMs can ban for whatever they want and then just hoping they are responsible is very naive and immoral.
Read above. Most people when logging into the game and playing, do not experience fear, or are afraid to experiment. If you find something wildly successful, why not ask a GM about it before continuing? Or in my favored banning policy, if you weren't warned to stop its all good. Banning is only a problem in your limited scenario of evil asshole GM's. Actually I just said in a post (wasn't it to you?) that you all are completely disagreeing with each other and then still claiming that its everyone against me.
Not exactly. We disagree on the actual state of exploit policies and whatnot, but when it comes down to "should banning be done at all", you are totally alone. You are ABSOLUTELY wrong that you can tell the difference between an exploit an unintended strategy because no matter what the dev can always say its whichever they feel like. It is not an extreme minority that has seen that this is a problem you only wish it wasso because it would make you seem like you know what you are talking about. One day you will probably be accused for something you thought for sure was not a bug and you will probably feel the same way as I. What you don't realize is that it is probably already happening in some games you play, just not to you yet.
I have my preconcieved notions, but I will always change what i think an exploit is, in accordance to the dev's warnings and news. Am i a sheep for simply following their word? Maybe. But its their world, their rules. I make my decision with my credit card. There's plenty of MMO's coming out this year, players will be able to put their money where their mouth is. If i get accused for something i thought wasn't a bug, i'll just say "I'm sorry, i didn't know", and promise to never do it again, maybe convince them that i had no way of knowing from my pov. Like I said, a threat is just a threat. Its the action that matters.
I officially assign you to this smiley, you big sensitive pussy you
To be quite frank, the only thing that they should ban people on the topic of "exploits" is things like item duplication. Things like that aren't fun. They're easy. It's like playing a game and putting in the Invincibility Mode cheat. Yeah sure you can have fun for awile, but after that small amount of time your bored and probably don't wanna bother playing again. That's why I don't like THOSE kinds of exploits.
That's all I wanted to say. You may go on with killing each other now...
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Originally posted by Otlano Guys, just stop argueing with, Kriminal99. Let him have his post here with no more replies to him. He doesn't get it at all. None of us believe him that he isn't an exploiter. His posts over both thread have only proved he is one. He keeps throwing out baseless points and totally ignores ours that are based on fact. He claims many aggree with him but where are they? If he was actually making a good arguement, there would be at least a few people here joining him but so far it is still him. Just forget it. He so wants to exploit without worring about being banned that he tries to spin his idiotic ideas into something that makes sense but they only work in his mind. Although, it is funny that he said he is insulting people in response to people insulting him. Except he seems to forget he was the first one to insult which happened in the first post. Remember how he said that the people who disaggreed with him are only semi-intelligent? This coming from a guy who always uses weather for whether. Hey, Krim, weather has to do with the climate and whether is what you wanted to use.People are arguing with me because they fear I am right and my arguments make more sense. If it wasn't the case that mmorpgs have been using exploit policies all this time you people would look like absolute fools. 90% of your posts have just been childish insults and whining that someone disagrees with the norm. And guess what there is no e in arguing or argument... oO Want to continue with the spelling game... If and when I said that people arguing with me were acting semi intelligently, it was only after the people used extensive insults and refused to evaluate arguments logically. I find it hilarious that you think something like this is even on the same level of the kind of stuff being said by other people. If this doesn't show who is has no arguments and who makes sense I don't know what would.
You just can't get into your head. You are so arrogant. People are arguing with you because you are wrong. Because they don't believe you. 90% of my posts have not been insults and I have not once whined that you disagrees with the norm. I have give you pefect logical reason why you are wrong but you ignored them. You only answered questions in vague fashion just like a politician without giving any true answer. Infact you are accusing us of what you should be accused.
Mine was simply a misspelling as a typo. You were using the wrong word and using the wrong word over and over. Ever single time(and that was a log as you seem to like to say whether) you used weather instead of whether. You claim to be a great debater and a great user of logic but you don't know the difference between weather and whether.
Also, when you accused us of being semi-intelligent was not after extensive insults. Also everybody was evaluating arguements logically but you refuse to see the logic because they disagreed with you. You are the type of person who has to be always right no matter how wrong you are. You and I are done because we all know you will keep ignoring the real logic that proves you wrong. This is the last time I respond to you.
One last thing. We have only disagreed with is if people should be banned. I believe in the warning part even though I think it is easy to deduce what is an exploit. If you been warned and still use the exploit, you should be banned.
Originally posted by Genjing This really is an isolated case. In FFXI, the GM's were courtious, and there was no exploit or banning problems. Most people actually found it kinda cool to be threatened by GM's as they got teleported to the cool special prison, and the GM's themselves had super unique armor and this otherwordly haze around them. Not all games have a problem with exploits and banning. Its a system that works when the GM's and devs are good, honest people who are interested in the game. If i had played Neocron, i would have preferred that good reliable GM's be hired, as opposed to taking away powers of the current GM's. Benevolent dictatorship is the most efficient way to get anything done.
Awwwwwwwww. ..... this is exactly why you are the irrational and biased one here. Most mmorpg gamers arn't treated this shitty, and have no problem with exploits, understanding exactly what is ok and what isn't. Most of us don't live in constant fear of unintended exploits and banning, which is why no one agrees with you. My suggestion would be to try a game where the GM/devs and the players live in harmony, and learn to open your heart and love your fellow man once again.
Read above. Most people when logging into the game and playing, do not experience fear, or are afraid to experiment. If you find something wildly successful, why not ask a GM about it before continuing? Or in my favored banning policy, if you weren't warned to stop its all good. Banning is only a problem in your limited scenario of evil asshole GM's.
Not exactly. We disagree on the actual state of exploit policies and whatnot, but when it comes down to "should banning be done at all", you are totally alone.
I have my preconcieved notions, but I will always change what i think an exploit is, in accordance to the dev's warnings and news. Am i a sheep for simply following their word? Maybe. But its their world, their rules. I make my decision with my credit card. There's plenty of MMO's coming out this year, players will be able to put their money where their mouth is. If i get accused for something i thought wasn't a bug, i'll just say "I'm sorry, i didn't know", and promise to never do it again, maybe convince them that i had no way of knowing from my pov. Like I said, a threat is just a threat. Its the action that matters. I officially assign you to this smiley, you big sensitive pussy you
Look Im not saying that it happens all the time. Im saying it CAN happen at any time. Thats a good enough reason to do something about it. Rules serve a purpose, if the rules don't serve that purpose well then they need to be changed. I think it would bother you if the govt said "the police and military can shoot you for doing anything they don't agree with" because thats way to vague and you don't even know what not to do to keep from being shot. At what point of lessining the punishement that is vaguely governed does it become ok? At no point. It needs to be fixed.
I don't think anyone likes to be attacked for no reason in any shape or form. My sensitivity just allows me to see it coming. It isn't that most people wouldn't care IF it happened, its that they don't think it ever WOULD happen until it does. And then they sit there mystified like "OMG what happened" I watched everyones reaction in Neocron to that type of behavior. Do you think anyone was like "Ok mr GM man well do as you say?" No they were pissed. They believed as I do that it ruined the game. Some of them later just decided to be like "fine I wont do it" Most of those were people who were more socialites etc then people who played to play if you know what I mean.
Most people only are not afraid to experiment because they are wholly ignorant that they could be attacked at any time. WHen they are they feel the same way, like "what the heck then what can I do that ISN'T exploiting???"
The other half of this problem isn't even about the fact that the definition is too vague. Its a complaint that the developers just keep removing one strategy after another that is just intelligent adaption to the game world. Its not like it says on the website "If you think of anything really cool to do that we didn't think of using our system like buy, make and sell items for profit etc we will tell you to stop and call it an exploit from then on" If they did alot of people (powergamers) would have no interest in the game. In neocron the game started out like this really realistic world where there was so many strategies to use and intelligence and analyzation would go far in helping you excel in the game. One strategy after another was called exploiting and the systems would change to remove things such that by the time they were finished the game was increadibly linear and no strategy was involved because they were pretty much all considered exploiting.
Anyways I don't really understand what your saying here. You say you wouldn't like it if they just ran around and banned everyone for things they decided randomly were exploits. Do you think its better to have in the rules that they can't do this so you know its not a possibility when you pay to play a game, or just to depend on the company not to but they could if they really wanted. Maybe your really good at sucking up and it would never happen to you. I don't suck up, and I like upfront honesty not dishonest backstabbers who abuse contracts to attack people that have different opinions as them. Back in the day if you were black you would have had to do a boatload of sucking up in order to keep from getting screwed by the law or community in the south. I supposed that wouldn't have bothered you though? In mmorpgs you might get the rough end of the rules because you pk, or have strong opinions, or in worse case the person in charge is your rival as a volunteer gm.
Oh and I think you know as well as I do that many of the arguments being used by other posters are irrelevant or circular. Such as the guy going on and on about it being against the rules when we are arguing from the point of view that we are a developer and trying to decide if we should put them in the rules. Or the people who keep calling it cheating and thats their whole post when we are trying to determine if there is a reason it SHOULD be called cheating. Opinions based on invlaid reasoning are invalid. Thats what I mean when its funny that you keep acting like everyone is against me when half the people against me don't even know what the argument is about.
Originally posted by Shalkar To be quite frank, the only thing that they should ban people on the topic of "exploits" is things like item duplication. Things like that aren't fun. They're easy. It's like playing a game and putting in the Invincibility Mode cheat. Yeah sure you can have fun for awile, but after that small amount of time your bored and probably don't wanna bother playing again. That's why I don't like THOSE kinds of exploits. That's all I wanted to say. You may go on with killing each other now...
I pretty much agree with you except that why don't they just prevent or fix the item dupes to begin with. One major problem with allowing them to ban players is that they then have no motivation for fixing the problems any faster.
Originally posted by Otlano
You just can't get into your head. You are so arrogant. People are arguing with you because you are wrong. Because they don't believe you. 90% of my posts have not been insults and I have not once whined that you disagrees with the norm. I have give you pefect logical reason why you are wrong but you ignored them. You only answered questions in vague fashion just like a politician without giving any true answer. Infact you are accusing us of what you should be accused. Mine was simply a misspelling as a typo. You were using the wrong word and using the wrong word over and over. Ever single time(and that was a log as you seem to like to say whether) you used weather instead of whether. You claim to be a great debater and a great user of logic but you don't know the difference between weather and whether. Also, when you accused us of being semi-intelligent was not after extensive insults. Also everybody was evaluating arguements logically but you refuse to see the logic because they disagreed with you. You are the type of person who has to be always right no matter how wrong you are. You and I are done because we all know you will keep ignoring the real logic that proves you wrong. This is the last time I respond to you.
One last thing. We have only disagreed with is if people should be banned. I believe in the warning part even though I think it is easy to deduce what is an exploit. If you been warned and still use the exploit, you should be banned.
I wonder if you actually don't understand what reasoning errors you have been using all this time. Ok just so I don't generalize lets look at the arguments you used in your first post on this thread (pretty much the only one that contained anything other than insults or whining, look back and see for yourself)
Argument : Krim.. crusade to make cheating legal Problem: This argument is circular you have to assume that exploiting is cheating before you can evaluate it then it is obviously true if you make that assumption. Its a way to decieve readers into believing you have a real argument as opposed to if you just said Exploiting is wrong because its wrong.
Argument: You used exploits knowingly you imlied it in your last thread Problem: bold faced lie, I said that I was accused of exploiting for things that were obviously not exploiting like taking cover when fighting mobs and shooting from it around a corner.
Argument: you don't know how to tell the difference between an exploit and a normal strategy Problem: I have already established that NOONE other than the devs can do this because the definition does not limit them from claiming anything they want is an exploit. You have completely ignored this very clear and obvious argument rather than adress it.
Argument: propagand theory.. you must be a conspiracy theorist Problem: What the heck are you talking about? When I say propaganda I mean the Devs are presenting a circular argument as to why exploits are wrong. If you make the argument "exploits are wrong because they are wrong" then you are really just saying "Because I say so" If they really WERE wrong then there would be no reason you couldn't explain why.
Arg: you would cheat in monopoly Problem: Again a circular argument. Exploiting has nothing to do with cheating in monopoly and is not similar in any way.
Arg: THE DEVS OWN SRVR U RNT Problem: This is totally irrelevant to the discussion. We are discussing what devs should put as rules as in if we were to start a company tommorow what should we do.
Limit your posts to real arguments if you even have any, don't even bother writing this other crap it serves no purpose, and causes you to miss the responses to your arguments that don't have any logic errors.
You have been misspelling argue words all throughout this thread. Don't give me that crap that it was a typo. You were doing the exact same thing. Debate is not about english skills or the ability to use unconnected metaphors despite what some people think. Its about thinking objectively and getting to the actual truth. If everyone just ran around like sheep continually using unconnected metaphors and circular arguments and refused to consider the other persons points long enough to even dispute them then people would never get anywhere arguing. And this is what it is like between many people.
Again if and when I said anyone was acting semi intelligently it was after extensive insults they used against me. And you are only acting semi intelligently so its not really even an insult. You lie, you decieve, you use meaningless arguments. I speak on a scale from emotionally driven to objective, which is what an intelligent being is. Yes if the other person is wrong and I am right I will not pretend to be wrong just to make them feel better.
If it was really easy to determine what was an exploit, why would you need to warn people? You wouldn't. Its not easy.
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Though a few weeks old, this was a very interesting thread and I had to reply.
I've heard this argument many times not just in MMRPGs but in other businesses as well from your cell phone provider to paypal to your internet service provider.
As to the question as to are they legal? For now? Yes. They're recognized as such. Will they remain legal? Not if enough people work to change them. Don't hold your breath. It could take decades of court casses and congress bills but there have been valid arguments against them.
A big one is did you sign it? 99 times out of a hundred, the answer is no. So is it still binding? Again for now, at least for all intents and purposes, yes. Another argument is that a lot of these AUPS, EULAs, TOS agreements, etc is that more often than not, these contracts are longer than the Louisiana purchase. Should it be fair to force your customer to agree to this ungodly large contract if they want to use your irresistable service just because you're bigger than them? For now legally yes. And it's gona stay that way. until such time that people get hurt enough to be considered victumized. Don't wory, that won't happen. These companies have a way of pushing until it hurts just a little.
Now with that said, the issue isn't legal, the issue is moral. Let's face it. Though MMRPGs are awesome, they all have something in common. They are paced to keep you paying longer and this is prioritized over pacing it for fun. Again it's fun enough that you WILL stay and pay but not as fun as it could be if that wasn't the issue.
Is it any wonder that under this structure people exploit? Let's be honest, these games are fun but they aren't for the casual player. When I say casual in this case, even 10 hours a week may be considered casual and that's more time than I have. Now, I don't want to log on and play for a week and be level 60. But what I DO want is to play for a week and have something to show for it. When I don't get that, my responce isn't to exploit. It is instead to cancel early.
There's also a second reason to exploit. Money! I've seen a friend's paypal account where he made hundreds of dollars off selling items. This is a big MMRPG nono but how could I ever flame someone for doing it? They claim it hurts the economy but I don't see it and here's why. He did his work to make that money and then he sold it as it came in for real world cash to someone who didn't work for the money. So, if you ignore the real world, not a gil was counterfitted or cloned in the game and every gil that was traded by him was legal in game tender. Let's face it. MMORPG companies don't like this NOT because it messes with the economy but rather because they're not getting a cut and someone else is making money off a game they made.. In a word, GREED.
Until Sony! I must applaud them for a statement they made at E3. They finally said they see a great interest in people who have a lot of time to play selling in game stuff to people who don't for real money and find it exciting. What's the matter Sony? Did you ban too many EQ players for selling stuff and is started costing? Regardless, Sony does get a thumbs up from me for seeing the light. Of course I'm sure Sony will set up the venue for such sales and they will be collecting their cut but hey, that's fine. I hope this statement at E3 becomes applied practice and that other companies follow. Won't stop all in game exploitation but I bet it'll stop a large chunk of it. If you combine that with the rumors that say EQ2 will be paced in a awy that it doesn't get boring as quickly, that too will stop some exploiters, the ones who exploit because they love the game but want to progress a little before they bash their head into the screen. So hopefully things will improve.
First, I thought this thread had disappeared because I couldn't find it.
Enigma, this thread is about banning people for exploits not selling stuff from the game. I don't give a damn if people sell or not and if people want to waste their money on that stuff then can go ahead and do it since its their money. Companies didn't do it for greed. Why don't you and Krim think these arguements all the way out? Greed means they want as much money as possible but how are they doing that by banning people since they are losing money doing that? They wouldn't ban people but sue them in a way to start getting cuts from it. They were doing it because people are profiting off the extremely hard work of the devs kind of like bootlegging movies or music cds. Personally, I don't think its that bad but I still won't throw my money at the crap.
Krim, you are the one who has the reasoning errors.
1. No my cheating arguement is not circular and you are only accusing it of being that way because its a serious crux of the arguement. Not only did I but several others have proved its cheating. When you break the rules of the game, its cheating. Several of us have proved in this thread and the previous thread. You only keep throwing the circular arguement at it so you can decieve the other people. Yet one of the many arguements you just totally ignore what we say and just say its "irrelevent, circular or vague" just because you don't have a good arguement against it.
2. We didn't say you did an exploit so we aren't lieing as you like to say it. We did say that after several of your posts, you sure sound like you did get in trouble by exploiting. We were betting you really did get caught for exploiting and you are just here so you can get exploiting legal so you don't get banned for it.
3. No I was saying it was easy to tell the difference between an exploit and a simple balancing issue. You really aren't reading what I am posting. Are you just skimming through my posts without really reading it? That would explain why you just aren't getting it. If you going to be part of this discussion, then read what I am typing.
4. I said you sounded like a conspiracy theorist when you said the companies aren't banning to keep their game free of people breaking the rules but to stop people from finishing to fast otherwise they won't make as much money as possible. That line right there just proves how illogical you really are. The developers are getting less money by banning them then just letting them play longer while exploiting.
5. Cheating in monopoly is not a circular arguement. You throw that circular arguement at anything you can't deal with. Grow up and prove that isn't correct. This is similar because in both instances you are breaking the rules of the game which means you are cheating. The thing is, I don't care if you cheat in monopoly because I don't have to play against you to play monopoly but to play a mmorpg I am forced to play with the people who exploit.
6. Subscribing to a mmorpg is like renting an apartment and that is totally relevent for some of your arguement. As for your new mmorpg that allows exploiting, go ahead and make it and let see how long you last. You will lose majority of your populace because of the exploiting and what you got left will be in chaos. Sure you say that will not happen but why don't you try it first and prove it.
These have been real arguements but you keep trying to pass them off as irrelevent because you can not argue against it. If you actually read my posts instead of skimming through them, you would have seen the reasoning.
Yes I know misspell in this posts because I'm trying to type fast to get these posts out and get onto other stuff I need to get done like getting to work. I only pointed our your constant use of weather for whether because you first started to jump on people about how their english stinks and how everybody here is only semi-intelligent. You used the common tactic of attacking people's grammer when aren't winning the arguement which is why I pointed out you got flaws also. How many times did you say you were some great debator and that you are so much smarther than everybody else here? Thinking objectively and finding the truth? We gave you the objective thinking but you did the opposite and ignore our actual points and just called the arguements "circular, irrelevent and vague." You need to stop pointing that finger at everybody else and start pointing it at yourself.
You were insulted first? Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! You were first with the semi-intelligent remark. You were first to attack people's grammer and spelling. You were the first to insult people. The only way we could have insulted you is if you are insulted by people disagreeing with you and if that is true, that is a whole lot of arrogance. I don't decieve or lie and that right there insults the hell out of me. I also dont' use meaningless arguements. You just accuse my arguements of being that way because I disagree with you. Also speaking emotionally does mean you are speaking intelligent and infact you should not be speaking out of emotion because emotion clouds reasoning which seems to be validated by the way you have been arguing in these two threads. You also have not been objective and in fact you have been railroading other peoples arguements.
Last thing, I said people should be warned because some people think its okay to exploit. I have no problem with giving people a second chance but if they continue to exploit after getting that, they should be banned.
Comments
I am glad to know we've played so many games together that you know so much about me, and my style of play. We must be the very bestest of friends, what with all that you know about me.
Or are you some psycho stalker type? Are you that guy I keep finding hiding in the bushes, wearing womens underwear?
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1. I did define the rules of exploit. It is not my definition. It is THE definition. Here it is again:
An exploit, or exploiter, is anything or anyone who breaks the rules of the Terms of Service, License Agreement, that they theirselves agree to abide by when they click "yes" or "I agree" whenever they login to play a MMORPG. Read the ToS to know exactly what it is you are agreeing to.
2. The police can and do arrest anyone they think is doing something wrong. A nice example is the college protestors in Seattle, Washington, USA roughly 1-2 years ago. Manytimes (in America at least) they just plain shoot them instead of arresting them. As happened recently in New York City with the officer who shot a kid coming out of a door in his apartment building. Or in the state of New Jersey, USA while Whitman was governer and many Black Americans were getting pulled over, and even shot for DWB. (Driving While Black, the term they came up with.) When they do arrest them, it is called probable cause. The person must be released in 24 hours or less if the probable cause cannot be supported with hard evidence. If they do not think someone is doing something wrong, they will not stop them, will not question them.
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MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
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http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
Well i had another essay post lined up with responses to each and every point but i decided its pointless. Summary version!
Krim has often been accused in Neocron and AO of exploiting when he actually wasn't... but was never actually banned or punished (to my knowledge). Because he is a pussy and his egotistical big head can't handle being talked down to by a mere GM, he reasons that banning is a real danger for anyone who comes across an exploit, even just once by accident. Never mind that he hasn't actually cited a situation where an unintentional one-time exploiter WAS banned, his explanation that its possible is reason enough to completely remove a useful punishment that deters many exploiters from carrying on. Fear of banning is more useful than the act of banning itself. If this punishment is controlled by multiple warnings beforehand and a clear policy, its fully acceptable.
Everyone knows he enjoys twisting words and giving his own versions of other people's posts, so no surprise there.
He somehow thinks he understands each and every one of the individual minds and gaming styles of everyone who disagrees with him. This is shown by his blatant stereotyping of the users on this forum, and attempts to gain leverage by touting how logical his argument is... and also how he's so much more capable of rational thought than we are. Thats called bragging. A tool of the arrogant, which when combined with the stubborness of an ass who thinks he's a psychologist by taking a philosophy course, creates the ultimate ass troll named Kriminal99.
He probably hasn't noticed that many of the people who argue against him, actually have slight differences in agreement among themselves on this issue. Thats because he groups everyone who disagrees with him into the category of naieve sheep who were owned in PvP. I for example, agree that exploiting policies need to clearly be defined and fair warnings given for drastic action to be taken. So far so good, because i believe i do understand the difference between an exploit and unintended strategy in-game, while Krim is sadly unable to tell the difference; thus is afraid of the entire situation. Unfortunately for him, he is the extreme minority, and most mmorpg gamers accept and agree that banning is an appropriate punishment for those who deserve it.
The end
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Just as obvious that you see only what you want, and pull the rest out of your ass. Like I said in the original thread, never reported anyone, never sent anyone a tell other than to congratulate them on a good fight, or to ask what a particular item they had, or spell they used was, etc. Win or lose in pvp, I don't talk shit. Frankly, outside of guildmates, I don't talk to much of anyone ingame.
Just because I think people that need to cheat are weak, and I despise weakness, isn't the same as being some crybaby. There is about as much correlation between my postings here, and my persona in game, as there is between my posting here, and how I act in the real world. I'm a lot nicer here.
Not that it will make any difference, you'll simply hear what you want to.
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An exploit, or exploiter, is anything or anyone who breaks the rules of the Terms of Service, License Agreement, that they theirselves agree to abide by when they click "yes" or "I agree" whenever they login to play a MMORPG. Read the ToS to know exactly what it is you are agreeing to.
2. The police can and do arrest anyone they think is doing something wrong. A nice example is the college protestors in Seattle, Washington, USA roughly 1-2 years ago. Manytimes (in America at least) they just plain shoot them instead of arresting them. As happened recently in New York City with the officer who shot a kid coming out of a door in his apartment building. Or in the state of New Jersey, USA while Whitman was governer and many Black Americans were getting pulled over, and even shot for DWB. (Driving While Black, the term they came up with.) When they do arrest them, it is called probable cause. The person must be released in 24 hours or less if the probable cause cannot be supported with hard evidence. If they do not think someone is doing something wrong, they will not stop them, will not question them.
jeesus how is this complicated? Change the name of the thread to be whatever will let you comprehend it. Should players agree to play games that have banning policies. Should games use anti exploit policies. Whatever use your noodle don't bother me with this mindless nitpicking.
Discussing ideas is never useless. Changing peoples opinions is obviously the first step in changing reality.
The mmorpg companies with banning policies have not died off because there are no alternatives yet, duh. Most mmorpg companies are not going to be intelligent enough or have enough initiative to do things drastically different from what they see other mmorpgs do. THey might do one or two things different that they have an opinion on and thats about it. Someone has already said that new companies have tried not having exploit policies, but the one he mentioned very poorly executed this attempt. I think you need to realize that just because something has been done so far doesn't give it mean it has any value.
I will form my own mmorpg company one day. It doesn't actually take a genius to make a lot of money as a mmorpg dev in today's market. It will when the market has advanced. Right now all it takes is pretty much getting SOMETHING right. There are so many things that mmorpgs lack that anyone can see. An mmorpg could be made using mathematical modeling to perfectly balance the game. None of them seem to do this. Many of them use drastically flawed customer service principles such as having volunteer gms that have authority over players. Many of them fail to understand what makes games fun etc etc. They have failed to tap pvp in a succesful way to keep a game continually fun. Todays companies will not stand a chance in the mmorpg market of tommorow, and it will be people like me that will advance the market to that point.
Oh brother... Ok think for a second here. The first mmorpg designer is sitting in a room. He says "hmm I wonder what the rules should be" Does he think about this before he just arbitrarily writes them? Yes he thinks about them. This is what we are arguing about. Therefore saying that developers have not done something yet is ABSOLUTELY COMPLETELY TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. Do you understand yet? What will it take for this to sink it?
If money is behind mmorpgs, and a company can make more money by attracting more customers without a banning policy then they will stop using banning policies when they figure this out.
I don't see any website links regarding this mythic case. My guess is the case was frivolus and has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
If rules in a contract are completely vague then there is room for interpretation obviously. All exploiter banning policies up to this point have been completely vague and basically allows the company to ban for anything. If a clause was to leave room for the developer to ban players for whatever they wanted then it could be said the whole contract was void for reason of no consideration.
What are you claiming I am lying? Why do you think I am here? Its not that complicated. Neocron gamemasters ran amok claiming people were exploiting for doing the most obvious stuff. Their GM's were community volunteers and were basically using their powers to threaten or ban people for any tactic they convinced themselves was unfair (usually after dieing to someone using it). In some cases it was obvious that the devs directly intended something that the GM's were calling an exploit. The situation demonstrated both the danger of vague exploit definitions and the players motivations for disliking exploiters. It was simply broadcasted over the global chat several times that certain things were exploits usually when the gm tried to get someone in trouble for doing it. When this happened I always argued with the gms. I was never approached by a gm claiming I was exploiting. Where are these wild accusations coming from? As Ive said your just dishonestly trying to project an image onto me so that you don't have to deal with the fact that someone who has done nothing wrong is calling you out for being a sore loser and taking it out on so called "exploiters"
The case is not super rare, many other people played this same game and had the same problems. The fact that exploit definitions are so vague is what allows this to happen, and it needs to be fixed. The world contains billions of people. So far I have seen about 4 or 5 people disagreeing with me, posting completely illogical arguments and mostly just flinging insults and talking about "Griefer exploiters" showing their obvious motivation for their position. In fact the poll I put has a great deal of people agreeing that current exploit policy has major problems with it. So its actually the majority that agrees with me there.
You are right about slavery, I actually meant to refer to persecution of blacks.
I never said it was illegal for companies to have banning policies. The argument is about weather they should, weather it makes sense, whether it has value. Might a case be made by people being banned for these? Yeah because the definition of exploits is so vague. In fact if I am not mistaken are not overly vague clauses in contracts often voided by courts?
You fail to follow any reasoning any further than it helps your argument. As I said in the first post which you obviously did not read, Exploits are not all Unintentional occurences. Only unintentional occurences which developers decide they do not like become exploits. Therefore a game with no exploit policy would have not exploits. Only balance issues. There might be something like item duping though. There are many ways to temporarily stop something like this besides banning players if you need time to fix it. Like diablo 2's premtive system that immediately deletes duped items. The point is the developers have the ability to always think of a better way to prevent/stop/fix exploits and use more resources to do so. Therefore they ARE choosing by negligence to place the exploits in the game.
You keep going on and on with this "they get to decide" crap. What is so difficult here? Do you realize what you are saying? Put yourself in the position of THEY. Then we can talk about the stuff again. Did you not comprehend that this was an implied condition of the argument? We are debating the ideas behind mmorpgs, to realize what the companies SHOULD be doing, or what customers SHOULD be refusing to accept. If everyone started out agreeing with me I wouldn't need to post would I?
I didn't say I wanted to decide whether or not you were qualified. I meant you obviously believe you are not because you keep repeating that companies have not done it so far. I don't know what your point is in repeatedly stating this, I assume you are saying that they must be right just because they are developers or something. Of course ideas become laws (btw what do laws have to do with this) Where do you think rules come from? Do you think they just materialize from thin air? That they are just repeated over and over but noone actually ever designed them?
First of all your definition of exploit I have not seen on any game site. Anyways the definition is useless without the rules it refers to. It serves no purpose in this argument. How is this complicated? The problem is exploits by MOST companies is defined to be something like using a bug in the game to gain an unfair advantage which is way to vague.
If the police go on the street and shoot random people they go to jail. The law doesn't say they can arrest people for "doing something wrong" The law probably says they can arrest people for suspicion of breaking a law. The laws are clearly defined. The whole point of this was to show the danger of unspecific laws which govern and claim to justify aggresive action against people. As you brought up "doing something wrong" to a white supremiscist could mean driving a nice car while black. This is not allowed.
I don't understand what your obsession with the "I agree" button is. MMORPGS exist because of the customers money. Yes if you go into a resturaunt, order and eat a meal you have to pay for it. If the resturaunt does something wrong (not LEGALLY WRONG but MORALY WRONG or WRONG IN THE SENSE OF COMPETITION) then people will stop going there. This is of course dependent on their being resturaunts that do not do anything wrong. One day there will be a bigger better more advanced mmorpg market in which mmorpgs of today would quickly die. This will come because people like me will debate and discover new ideas on how to do things.
Your postion that "if it isn't done already there is no reason to even think about it" serves little purpose. If everyone thought that way we would still be in the stone age worshipping rocks wouldn't we?
PS Sorry for the mean comment, I looked back and realize you have not been flinging insults. When arguing with many people at once it gets harder to keep tabs on who is attacking and who is not. It just seems that you are for some reason totally unwilling to consider any idea that the developers do not consider first.
I am an intelligent rational being. A system that allows volunteer gms to threaten you and attack you without justification is not in any way rational. Am I more sensitive to it than other people? Yes. Is it because I am a "pussy" or "egotistical"? No. I am someone who has been subjected to the most unfair, hypocritical, emotional, selfish etc behavior since the dawn of my existence. Rather than lash back at the person responsible for this, I chose instead to understand what was going on and forgive the person. If I was to run around acting on my selfish whims and desires like most people I would be killing people right and left. Instead I completely understand people and do not take offense at anything which is not a directly aggresive action against me, and even then I forgive the person as just not knowing any better.
Anyways the fear of banning is exactly what I am talking about that ruins the game. A player wants to excel in the game (not socializer or explorer but the actual players) and the fear of banning works against this desire ruining the fun of the game. Every action must be weighed, not even as much when it is based on something obviously unintended as when it is something that allows the player to be wildly succesful. Exactly what the player wants to be. Yes having a sytsem where the GMs can ban for whatever they want and then just hoping they are responsible is very naive and immoral.
The devs should at very least tell the customers up front exactly what they would be banned for so the customers can accurately decide if the game is worth playing.
Its OBVIOUS what drives many of the opinions against exploiting. Like I said when people are going on about people using exploits to grief and half their posts are examples of this its obvious where their motivations come from. None of these people are producing legitimate arguments, I swear the last like 2 pages have just been little crybabies going "Oh we can't think of any arguments but we don't want to admit were wrong so well just insult Krim and hope it looks like we aren't as incompetent as we really are"
Actually I just said in a post (wasn't it to you?) that you all are completely disagreeing with each other and then still claiming that its everyone against me.
You are ABSOLUTELY wrong that you can tell the difference between an exploit an unintended strategy because no matter what the dev can always say its whichever they feel like. It is not an extreme minority that has seen that this is a problem you only wish it was so because it would make you seem like you know what you are talking about. One day you will probably be accused for something you thought for sure was not a bug and you will probably feel the same way as I. What you don't realize is that it is probably already happening in some games you play, just not to you yet.
Actually its by logical reasoning that I deduce that many people are so emotionally motivated from losing to people using unexpected strategies. Why did you think people were so emotionally motivated to argue against exploiting again? And by emotionally motivated besides being increadibly resistant to reason I also mean repeatedly resorting to insults and using illogical arguments like calling it griefing or like stealing etc as if exploiting in general was an aggresive act.
You want me to make it obvious and undeniable? Ok. How are "people that need to cheat" weak? Or rather how is exploiting cheating? Elaborate.
The whole argument of "exploits give unfair advantage" directly demonstrates an immature attitude towards competition. Its not an unfair advantage any more than any other strategy. If there is a strategy which you haven't discovered yet that allows someone to kill you it makes you temporarily frusterated. (you as in anyone) How is the anger you attribute to exploits any different then this anger?
You prove it yourself when you claim exploiters are cheaters. You don't call them cheaters simply because they do something against the rules. The rules aren't even specific or clearly defined. You call them cheaters because they beat you and you didn't expect them to. Then you hope that the developers will call them exploiters.
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Neocron gamemasters ran amok claiming people were exploiting for doing the most obvious stuff. Their GM's were community volunteers and were basically using their powers to threaten or ban people for any tactic they convinced themselves was unfair (usually after dieing to someone using it)
This really is an isolated case. In FFXI, the GM's were courtious, and there was no exploit or banning problems. Most people actually found it kinda cool to be threatened by GM's as they got teleported to the cool special prison, and the GM's themselves had super unique armor and this otherwordly haze around them. Not all games have a problem with exploits and banning. Its a system that works when the GM's and devs are good, honest people who are interested in the game. If i had played Neocron, i would have preferred that good reliable GM's be hired, as opposed to taking away powers of the current GM's. Benevolent dictatorship is the most efficient way to get anything done.
Am I more sensitive to it than other people? Yes. Is it because I am a "pussy" or "egotistical"? No. I am someone who has been subjected to the most unfair, hypocritical, emotional, selfish etc behavior since the dawn of my existence.
Awwwwwwwww.
Anyways the fear of banning is exactly what I am talking about that ruins the game. A player wants to excel in the game (not socializer or explorer but the actual players) and the fear of banning works against this desire ruining the fun of the game. Every action must be weighed, not even as much when it is based on something obviously unintended as when it is something that allows the player to be wildly succesful. Exactly what the player wants to be. Yes having a sytsem where the GMs can ban for whatever they want and then just hoping they are responsible is very naive and immoral.
Read above. Most people when logging into the game and playing, do not experience fear, or are afraid to experiment. If you find something wildly successful, why not ask a GM about it before continuing? Or in my favored banning policy, if you weren't warned to stop its all good. Banning is only a problem in your limited scenario of evil asshole GM's.
Actually I just said in a post (wasn't it to you?) that you all are completely disagreeing with each other and then still claiming that its everyone against me.
Not exactly. We disagree on the actual state of exploit policies and whatnot, but when it comes down to "should banning be done at all", you are totally alone.
You are ABSOLUTELY wrong that you can tell the difference between an exploit an unintended strategy because no matter what the dev can always say its whichever they feel like. It is not an extreme minority that has seen that this is a problem you only wish it wasso because it would make you seem like you know what you are talking about. One day you will probably be accused for something you thought for sure was not a bug and you will probably feel the same way as I. What you don't realize is that it is probably already happening in some games you play, just not to you yet.
I have my preconcieved notions, but I will always change what i think an exploit is, in accordance to the dev's warnings and news. Am i a sheep for simply following their word? Maybe. But its their world, their rules. I make my decision with my credit card. There's plenty of MMO's coming out this year, players will be able to put their money where their mouth is. If i get accused for something i thought wasn't a bug, i'll just say "I'm sorry, i didn't know", and promise to never do it again, maybe convince them that i had no way of knowing from my pov. Like I said, a threat is just a threat. Its the action that matters.
I officially assign you to this smiley, you big sensitive pussy you
To be quite frank, the only thing that they should ban people on the topic of "exploits" is things like item duplication. Things like that aren't fun. They're easy. It's like playing a game and putting in the Invincibility Mode cheat. Yeah sure you can have fun for awile, but after that small amount of time your bored and probably don't wanna bother playing again. That's why I don't like THOSE kinds of exploits.
That's all I wanted to say. You may go on with killing each other now...
You just can't get into your head. You are so arrogant. People are arguing with you because you are wrong. Because they don't believe you. 90% of my posts have not been insults and I have not once whined that you disagrees with the norm. I have give you pefect logical reason why you are wrong but you ignored them. You only answered questions in vague fashion just like a politician without giving any true answer. Infact you are accusing us of what you should be accused.
Mine was simply a misspelling as a typo. You were using the wrong word and using the wrong word over and over. Ever single time(and that was a log as you seem to like to say whether) you used weather instead of whether. You claim to be a great debater and a great user of logic but you don't know the difference between weather and whether.
Also, when you accused us of being semi-intelligent was not after extensive insults. Also everybody was evaluating arguements logically but you refuse to see the logic because they disagreed with you. You are the type of person who has to be always right no matter how wrong you are. You and I are done because we all know you will keep ignoring the real logic that proves you wrong. This is the last time I respond to you.
One last thing. We have only disagreed with is if people should be banned. I believe in the warning part even though I think it is easy to deduce what is an exploit. If you been warned and still use the exploit, you should be banned.
Look Im not saying that it happens all the time. Im saying it CAN happen at any time. Thats a good enough reason to do something about it. Rules serve a purpose, if the rules don't serve that purpose well then they need to be changed. I think it would bother you if the govt said "the police and military can shoot you for doing anything they don't agree with" because thats way to vague and you don't even know what not to do to keep from being shot. At what point of lessining the punishement that is vaguely governed does it become ok? At no point. It needs to be fixed.
I don't think anyone likes to be attacked for no reason in any shape or form. My sensitivity just allows me to see it coming. It isn't that most people wouldn't care IF it happened, its that they don't think it ever WOULD happen until it does. And then they sit there mystified like "OMG what happened" I watched everyones reaction in Neocron to that type of behavior. Do you think anyone was like "Ok mr GM man well do as you say?" No they were pissed. They believed as I do that it ruined the game. Some of them later just decided to be like "fine I wont do it" Most of those were people who were more socialites etc then people who played to play if you know what I mean.
Most people only are not afraid to experiment because they are wholly ignorant that they could be attacked at any time. WHen they are they feel the same way, like "what the heck then what can I do that ISN'T exploiting???"
The other half of this problem isn't even about the fact that the definition is too vague. Its a complaint that the developers just keep removing one strategy after another that is just intelligent adaption to the game world. Its not like it says on the website "If you think of anything really cool to do that we didn't think of using our system like buy, make and sell items for profit etc we will tell you to stop and call it an exploit from then on" If they did alot of people (powergamers) would have no interest in the game. In neocron the game started out like this really realistic world where there was so many strategies to use and intelligence and analyzation would go far in helping you excel in the game. One strategy after another was called exploiting and the systems would change to remove things such that by the time they were finished the game was increadibly linear and no strategy was involved because they were pretty much all considered exploiting.
Anyways I don't really understand what your saying here. You say you wouldn't like it if they just ran around and banned everyone for things they decided randomly were exploits. Do you think its better to have in the rules that they can't do this so you know its not a possibility when you pay to play a game, or just to depend on the company not to but they could if they really wanted. Maybe your really good at sucking up and it would never happen to you. I don't suck up, and I like upfront honesty not dishonest backstabbers who abuse contracts to attack people that have different opinions as them. Back in the day if you were black you would have had to do a boatload of sucking up in order to keep from getting screwed by the law or community in the south. I supposed that wouldn't have bothered you though? In mmorpgs you might get the rough end of the rules because you pk, or have strong opinions, or in worse case the person in charge is your rival as a volunteer gm.
Oh and I think you know as well as I do that many of the arguments being used by other posters are irrelevant or circular. Such as the guy going on and on about it being against the rules when we are arguing from the point of view that we are a developer and trying to decide if we should put them in the rules. Or the people who keep calling it cheating and thats their whole post when we are trying to determine if there is a reason it SHOULD be called cheating. Opinions based on invlaid reasoning are invalid. Thats what I mean when its funny that you keep acting like everyone is against me when half the people against me don't even know what the argument is about.
I pretty much agree with you except that why don't they just prevent or fix the item dupes to begin with. One major problem with allowing them to ban players is that they then have no motivation for fixing the problems any faster.
I wonder if you actually don't understand what reasoning errors you have been using all this time. Ok just so I don't generalize lets look at the arguments you used in your first post on this thread (pretty much the only one that contained anything other than insults or whining, look back and see for yourself)
Argument : Krim.. crusade to make cheating legal Problem: This argument is circular you have to assume that exploiting is cheating before you can evaluate it then it is obviously true if you make that assumption. Its a way to decieve readers into believing you have a real argument as opposed to if you just said Exploiting is wrong because its wrong.
Argument: You used exploits knowingly you imlied it in your last thread Problem: bold faced lie, I said that I was accused of exploiting for things that were obviously not exploiting like taking cover when fighting mobs and shooting from it around a corner.
Argument: you don't know how to tell the difference between an exploit and a normal strategy Problem: I have already established that NOONE other than the devs can do this because the definition does not limit them from claiming anything they want is an exploit. You have completely ignored this very clear and obvious argument rather than adress it.
Argument: propagand theory.. you must be a conspiracy theorist Problem: What the heck are you talking about? When I say propaganda I mean the Devs are presenting a circular argument as to why exploits are wrong. If you make the argument "exploits are wrong because they are wrong" then you are really just saying "Because I say so" If they really WERE wrong then there would be no reason you couldn't explain why.
Arg: you would cheat in monopoly Problem: Again a circular argument. Exploiting has nothing to do with cheating in monopoly and is not similar in any way.
Arg: THE DEVS OWN SRVR U RNT Problem: This is totally irrelevant to the discussion. We are discussing what devs should put as rules as in if we were to start a company tommorow what should we do.
Limit your posts to real arguments if you even have any, don't even bother writing this other crap it serves no purpose, and causes you to miss the responses to your arguments that don't have any logic errors.
You have been misspelling argue words all throughout this thread. Don't give me that crap that it was a typo. You were doing the exact same thing. Debate is not about english skills or the ability to use unconnected metaphors despite what some people think. Its about thinking objectively and getting to the actual truth. If everyone just ran around like sheep continually using unconnected metaphors and circular arguments and refused to consider the other persons points long enough to even dispute them then people would never get anywhere arguing. And this is what it is like between many people.
Again if and when I said anyone was acting semi intelligently it was after extensive insults they used against me. And you are only acting semi intelligently so its not really even an insult. You lie, you decieve, you use meaningless arguments. I speak on a scale from emotionally driven to objective, which is what an intelligent being is. Yes if the other person is wrong and I am right I will not pretend to be wrong just to make them feel better.
If it was really easy to determine what was an exploit, why would you need to warn people? You wouldn't. Its not easy.
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Though a few weeks old, this was a very interesting thread and I had to reply.
I've heard this argument many times not just in MMRPGs but in other businesses as well from your cell phone provider to paypal to your internet service provider.
As to the question as to are they legal? For now? Yes. They're recognized as such. Will they remain legal? Not if enough people work to change them. Don't hold your breath. It could take decades of court casses and congress bills but there have been valid arguments against them.
A big one is did you sign it? 99 times out of a hundred, the answer is no. So is it still binding? Again for now, at least for all intents and purposes, yes. Another argument is that a lot of these AUPS, EULAs, TOS agreements, etc is that more often than not, these contracts are longer than the Louisiana purchase. Should it be fair to force your customer to agree to this ungodly large contract if they want to use your irresistable service just because you're bigger than them? For now legally yes. And it's gona stay that way. until such time that people get hurt enough to be considered victumized. Don't wory, that won't happen. These companies have a way of pushing until it hurts just a little.
Now with that said, the issue isn't legal, the issue is moral. Let's face it. Though MMRPGs are awesome, they all have something in common. They are paced to keep you paying longer and this is prioritized over pacing it for fun. Again it's fun enough that you WILL stay and pay but not as fun as it could be if that wasn't the issue.
Is it any wonder that under this structure people exploit? Let's be honest, these games are fun but they aren't for the casual player. When I say casual in this case, even 10 hours a week may be considered casual and that's more time than I have. Now, I don't want to log on and play for a week and be level 60. But what I DO want is to play for a week and have something to show for it. When I don't get that, my responce isn't to exploit. It is instead to cancel early.
There's also a second reason to exploit. Money! I've seen a friend's paypal account where he made hundreds of dollars off selling items. This is a big MMRPG nono but how could I ever flame someone for doing it? They claim it hurts the economy but I don't see it and here's why. He did his work to make that money and then he sold it as it came in for real world cash to someone who didn't work for the money. So, if you ignore the real world, not a gil was counterfitted or cloned in the game and every gil that was traded by him was legal in game tender. Let's face it. MMORPG companies don't like this NOT because it messes with the economy but rather because they're not getting a cut and someone else is making money off a game they made.. In a word, GREED.
Until Sony! I must applaud them for a statement they made at E3. They finally said they see a great interest in people who have a lot of time to play selling in game stuff to people who don't for real money and find it exciting. What's the matter Sony? Did you ban too many EQ players for selling stuff and is started costing? Regardless, Sony does get a thumbs up from me for seeing the light. Of course I'm sure Sony will set up the venue for such sales and they will be collecting their cut but hey, that's fine. I hope this statement at E3 becomes applied practice and that other companies follow. Won't stop all in game exploitation but I bet it'll stop a large chunk of it. If you combine that with the rumors that say EQ2 will be paced in a awy that it doesn't get boring as quickly, that too will stop some exploiters, the ones who exploit because they love the game but want to progress a little before they bash their head into the screen. So hopefully things will improve.
First, I thought this thread had disappeared because I couldn't find it.
Enigma, this thread is about banning people for exploits not selling stuff from the game. I don't give a damn if people sell or not and if people want to waste their money on that stuff then can go ahead and do it since its their money. Companies didn't do it for greed. Why don't you and Krim think these arguements all the way out? Greed means they want as much money as possible but how are they doing that by banning people since they are losing money doing that? They wouldn't ban people but sue them in a way to start getting cuts from it. They were doing it because people are profiting off the extremely hard work of the devs kind of like bootlegging movies or music cds. Personally, I don't think its that bad but I still won't throw my money at the crap.
Krim, you are the one who has the reasoning errors.
1. No my cheating arguement is not circular and you are only accusing it of being that way because its a serious crux of the arguement. Not only did I but several others have proved its cheating. When you break the rules of the game, its cheating. Several of us have proved in this thread and the previous thread. You only keep throwing the circular arguement at it so you can decieve the other people. Yet one of the many arguements you just totally ignore what we say and just say its "irrelevent, circular or vague" just because you don't have a good arguement against it.
2. We didn't say you did an exploit so we aren't lieing as you like to say it. We did say that after several of your posts, you sure sound like you did get in trouble by exploiting. We were betting you really did get caught for exploiting and you are just here so you can get exploiting legal so you don't get banned for it.
3. No I was saying it was easy to tell the difference between an exploit and a simple balancing issue. You really aren't reading what I am posting. Are you just skimming through my posts without really reading it? That would explain why you just aren't getting it. If you going to be part of this discussion, then read what I am typing.
4. I said you sounded like a conspiracy theorist when you said the companies aren't banning to keep their game free of people breaking the rules but to stop people from finishing to fast otherwise they won't make as much money as possible. That line right there just proves how illogical you really are. The developers are getting less money by banning them then just letting them play longer while exploiting.
5. Cheating in monopoly is not a circular arguement. You throw that circular arguement at anything you can't deal with. Grow up and prove that isn't correct. This is similar because in both instances you are breaking the rules of the game which means you are cheating. The thing is, I don't care if you cheat in monopoly because I don't have to play against you to play monopoly but to play a mmorpg I am forced to play with the people who exploit.
6. Subscribing to a mmorpg is like renting an apartment and that is totally relevent for some of your arguement. As for your new mmorpg that allows exploiting, go ahead and make it and let see how long you last. You will lose majority of your populace because of the exploiting and what you got left will be in chaos. Sure you say that will not happen but why don't you try it first and prove it.
These have been real arguements but you keep trying to pass them off as irrelevent because you can not argue against it. If you actually read my posts instead of skimming through them, you would have seen the reasoning.
Yes I know misspell in this posts because I'm trying to type fast to get these posts out and get onto other stuff I need to get done like getting to work. I only pointed our your constant use of weather for whether because you first started to jump on people about how their english stinks and how everybody here is only semi-intelligent. You used the common tactic of attacking people's grammer when aren't winning the arguement which is why I pointed out you got flaws also. How many times did you say you were some great debator and that you are so much smarther than everybody else here? Thinking objectively and finding the truth? We gave you the objective thinking but you did the opposite and ignore our actual points and just called the arguements "circular, irrelevent and vague." You need to stop pointing that finger at everybody else and start pointing it at yourself.
You were insulted first? Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! You were first with the semi-intelligent remark. You were first to attack people's grammer and spelling. You were the first to insult people. The only way we could have insulted you is if you are insulted by people disagreeing with you and if that is true, that is a whole lot of arrogance. I don't decieve or lie and that right there insults the hell out of me. I also dont' use meaningless arguements. You just accuse my arguements of being that way because I disagree with you. Also speaking emotionally does mean you are speaking intelligent and infact you should not be speaking out of emotion because emotion clouds reasoning which seems to be validated by the way you have been arguing in these two threads. You also have not been objective and in fact you have been railroading other peoples arguements.
Last thing, I said people should be warned because some people think its okay to exploit. I have no problem with giving people a second chance but if they continue to exploit after getting that, they should be banned.