Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Enough with the 'sandbox' whining
tfox2k1
Member Posts: 215
The same people constantly asking for a sandbox must never have played one. I was in SWG at the start. Unless you were a trade skill person there was NOTHING to do except explore large barren tracts of land. Trust me the main reason SWG failed was the lack of content.
If you want a sand box MMO, go play Second Life, its nothing but a sandbox. If you want an open land MMORPG then go to LOTRO or WoW.
Do you people crying for a sandbox MMO even know what the term sandbox means?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Where we played as children?
But I still wait for a more immersing game with more playstyle options like UO had.
Maybe if they put content in SWG instead of fixing Jedi and making the NGE and CU all the time then it could have been good by now!
I started to play SWG year after launch and even without content I loved its skillbased system, crafting, how you could customise your character with clothing, armor and jewelry and the feel of the open world. I just loved it.
If I and a certain group of players would like to have a sandbox game why on earth would you like to prevent us from having one? More we have different style of MMORPGs better it is imo.
I sure hope Darkfall, Mortal Online and Earth Rise will see the daylight.
To the OP,
'sandbox' in the context of MMORPGs means a world built by the players and ruled by the players. It rewards creativity and offers a lot of diversity. Second life might be a sandbox game but there is no way to kill mighty goblins or huge scary ogres in it... so why do you want me to play this? Sandbox doesn't mean real life simulation. I have to say it's not for everyone though. If you want the game to tell you where to go next and what to do now, you don't want a sandbox.
Op just got owned
Well, that's one definition. Other people think it means having skill levels, instead of class levels, or swinging your sword over and over to raise your sword skill.
Sandbox is usually a world where players are part of the world. Not just being told by some NPC what to do.
Sandbox you think for yourself n create your character to your liking. Not a pre-cookie-cutter made character where you will be the same as 1000's of other players.
Sandbox crafting and community actually matter and are needed. Not about quest rewards that are the best n everything can be done solo...no need for interaction with others.
So perhaps the masses like to be spoon fed and lead from point a to b or they would be lost, but a great many of us would like to be able to do our own thinking.
Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed my time in SWG but back then, I remember that the forums were 90%whine and 10% happy. The community demanded the CU and NGE...
The game was full of bugs and some were more then unnacceptable.
Just to name a few...
- Sitting down in a cantina and warping back 3000 Meters out.
- Bounty Hunter - Hunting your target only to find that he cannot be attacked.
- Legendary drops so powerfull that the GMs will sometimes take them off your hands
- Combat Medics
- Defence Stack
- Pistoleer back in the days lol...
- Smuggler anyone?
- Teras Kasi overpowered for a long time
- Turret Exploits
- Major City Lag
- Carbineers
- Jedi Grind (good way to turn your community into a greed machine)
Now that's just a small list not even on top my head. I think anyone that played alot could have name at least 40 to 50 major flaws in SWG.
So I'm not sure if I really want a sandbox like that again.
However... in my book, what really made SWG so special for most is the guilds and cities. It's how the interaction went on. You forged alliance with guilds for defense purpose, territory control, resource gathering or simple RP politics. You're not going to do that in a game like WOW... (Uh, let's defend Stormwind together man!!!)
Every class were connected together and the loots were so rare that player crafted items were dominant. Nothing was given to the player on a silver platter. Guilds didn't raided 3 nights a week for a purple item... they did once a week to create Boba Fetts armour. Only to be displayed in their guildhall and posted on the forums.
The problem is: What happens if you let players rule the world? It's pretty simple, the clever, talented, creative ones are automatically, without actually putting any particular focus on it, the ones that get "better" than the others.
Sandbox is a VERY double-bladed knife, regular MMOs cap the possibilities for every player because then, players are not able to grow superior beyond a certain level. e.g. you cannot buy half the game world by cleverly advancing trade to become an ingame tycoon. You can have infinite amounts of money, but there is still only so much to buy...
Actually, I think this is a general mindset conflict, not a "lol, n00bs play cookie-cutter-MMOs"-thing. In the middle-ages, there were things like craftsmen guilds and protecting taxes, social classes, roles, religious predeterminations that prevented ambitious individuals to advance in life, but also stabilized society on a certain level by not "underpowering" not-so-ambitious people. if you were a carpenter in a guild you got the support and the guild prices; the people paid because things were this way. Period. A society that works like this _can_ be stable and provide a good life for most members...
Now what the ideal of a sandbox game - to get back on topic - is promising is a completely different one: It's the idea that a society of people can grow to a self-regulated community with an absolute minimum of developer-implied rules. Which is essentially untrue, it leads to a VERY highly varied society were there are socially weaker players (who have to struggle to even get along) and socially strong players (that can achieve things easily).
This does not have to be a bad thing. It's just hard to make money with a game that simulates a player-driven world, because once the mechanics of real-life society start to kick in your escapist dream of being a virtual superhero vaporizes in 0 time.
Meridion
It is completely understandable that people would want a game that appeals to them to come out so the sandbox crowd talking about wanting a sandbox does not bother me at all, what does is the elitism, and it is not just sandbox players but forced groupers and FFA PvPers as well.
It is the logic that somehow their playing style is superior and more challanging than other peoples. That games that do not have the qualities they like are "in easy mode", "a themepark" or "holds the players hand". Really I have not played a MMO, and I have played the old ones too, that was difficult or thought provoking (if you can read you can do fine), that didn't organize content into areas appropriate from your level or skill level and that didn't plan out the paths players take to level up your character/skill ( this tree requires level 225 in lumberlacking).
I also don't like when people tell others that have different ideas about how they would like a genre of game to be to "go play x type game then".
I like a lot of features that sandbox games have, I think they are really interesting, but I have yet to find one that suits me, same with non sandbox MMOs, The "golden age" games and the newer MMOs have some good points to them but they fail in different areas, and often older and newer games have the same problems.
I think people use sandbox as a blanket term, they don't all want the same game really but it is the best descriptor they can find, if you asked a person individually what they want then their ideal game would probably be harder to classify. Hence why Second Life would be classified as a sandbox yet many sandbox enthusiasts don't play it.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I would challenge this statement and say that EVE does not follow the path you've described. Players are free to pursue whatever path they chose, and every player defines their own path. Are there similarities? Yes, but I doubt more than a handful of EVE's playerbase has my exact skill set and even then, I doubt their goals and objectives are on the same road I'm currently traveling.
But it is true, sandbox isn't really a game, its a set of features that are incorporated into a game that provide more player choice to defines what it is they wish to do.
You'll never come to an agreement either, since as others have noted, people have wildly differing opinions about what makes a sandbox game.
But the reason people clamor these days for them is simple, most recent games have followed a single formula, run the players along a quest driven path to max level, then let them raid until they become bored and quit. Sure, these games toss in some element of crafting, or housing or whatever, but they are always poor imitations about what they could be.
As for your comments about elitism, every game has people who think this way... there are WOW players who feel they are elite, who hasn't heard "I'm a member of the number one rated guild on the XXXXX server, no, maybe in our entire cluster, no wait..maybe in all of Europe etc etc."
Meanwhile, people who play games other than WOW snicker at such claims and feel they are superior by right of the game they play and their place in that world.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I agree with this. Sandbox games are clearly not for people wanting instant gratification. Not everyone have to be a superhero however and this is the beauty of a sandbox. In theory everyone can shine in their own and unique way. If the world is built by the players, we need architects and builders. If the economy is runned by the players, we need merchants and traders. If wolves and bears don't drop powerful two-handed hammers when you kill them, we need crafters. If we don't want the world to turn into a chaotic bloodfest, we need diplomats and smart leaders. Of course everyone can fight and be useful in combat as well... but imo the focus in a sandbox should not be entirely put on the fighting aspect.
The perfect sandbox in my mind would have a near-perfect balance between the following elements :
- Clean PvP (City sieges, Duels, Racial conflicts, etc)
- Combat against monsters in the wilderness (PvE)
- World exploration
- Structures built by players (Houses, shops, cities, bridges, ships, everything...)
- Player-driven economy
- Politics and diplomacy (Alliances, war declaration, Peace treaties, non-aggression pacts, etc)
- Crafting
EvE is an extreme like WOW is part of the other extreme. Both games are incredible and well done. Some will prefer EVE and others WOW.
I praise EVE and I do play it as well but there is one thing that seem to be missed. Skill based perhaps but no matter what, if you want to go somewhere, you'll have to basically learn the same skills as anyone else. The only difference is how you wish to evolve but in the end, you'll be the same. Only a handfull of ships allow the ability to cross tech efficiently. Like the Myrmidon (Gallente Tech) is mostly efficient with Minmatar projectiles and Caldari Shields. But don't try that on the Brutix...
I'm currently learning Capital ships and no matter how unique I wish to be, most of my skills are exactly the same as my fellow Gallente capital ship pilot friends. It's not like I'm gona fit a random setup... I'll be fitting a very standard fit with a few surprises but that's maybe one or two modules...
Sure, instead of going straight to Capital ships, I went into exploration then made a quick stop in Criminal Connections and drug marketting (boosters). Eventually, I decided to get Tech 2 for rails and Blasters on my Battleships and upgraded my electronic warfare...
dont forget fallen earth
SandBox MMORPG's 'can be great' if done correctly. The driving force behind a successful sandbox MMO is the community. The game has to support the community. Right now, most games just throw down a path for all players to follow... and players really don't have any alternatives other than follow that path. In a sandbox, the community is given the tools to make their own paths... or none at all.
I like a game that offers freedom. But some people are not creative. They need to be given direction. They'd get lost in a sandbox. They wouldn't find content, because they wouldn't have a quest guide driving them from area to area, level to level, piece of gear to piece of gear.
I'd like to see a few sandboxes pop up and see how they fair vs WoW. I don't know that anyone after generation X would realy care for it, though.
Oh yes, all-knowing person!
Well its not just unique builds of skills, skills themselves in Eve or otherwise practice what people call "hand holding".
You are told what you can use at a certain skill levels, from abilities to equipement, and how to improve those skills, actively or passive, over all the character is not on a linear path but each skill is. The difference between skill based and level based, since many people consider skills a must for a sandbox, is smaller than people think. It is like the difference between a game where you pick one story line and follow it and a game where you pick multiple subplots and follow those, skills provide more freedom but it is freedom to pursue different linear paths. It is when players change which linear skill path they work on frequently that the game seems non-linear.
Not saying any one choice (skill vs level) is better or worse just that they are more similar than people usually portray them.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
You can play a game like LOTRO perfectly as a sandbox. Buy a house, decorate it as you want. You can cosmetically dress your little doll to your hearts content. You can explore wide open areas. You can role play. You do need to advance, but you can do so with rarely completing a quest. Even SWG required you to do a few quests.
There is no need for a sandbox MMO because a quality MMO such as WoW or LOTRO already give you this option. Also have UO if you want to get primitive.
You don't have to be cookie cutter any more than you did in SWG. I'll tell you what everyone in SWG was extremely cookie cutter, regardless of how your rose tinted glasses see things in the past.
Know something else, SWG proved a player controlled economy is nearly impossible to set up without having a few people controlling the entire market. You absolutely need controls on the marketplace in an MMO and in the real world.
SWG was typically ruled by a few very high end vendors who sold the best stuff everyone wanted. These guys got in place playing the beta, then not sleeping or having multiple people play the same vendor to advance faster than anyone else. Then they corner the market make a killing then underbid anyone trying to complete with them in 'their' market. Doesn't take skill, just a bit of knowledge, some poor thinking by developers, and lots of time or friends to team up.
SWG had so much wrong at release it was a total disaster. If that is anyones definition of a sandbox MMO, thank guy they are not common. SWG sandbox actually makes AoC look better.
So get your facts straight people before asking for something you know nothing about.
Those of you whining the loudest for a 'sandbox' would be the first to whine on the game's forums when you get your pee pee spanked by someone smarter in 'your sandbox'
I agree with this. Sandbox games are clearly not for people wanting instant gratification. Not everyone have to be a superhero however and this is the beauty of a sandbox. In theory everyone can shine in their own and unique way. If the world is built by the players, we need architects and builders. If the economy is runned by the players, we need merchants and traders. If wolves and bears don't drop powerful two-handed hammers when you kill them, we need crafters. If we don't want the world to turn into a chaotic bloodfest, we need diplomats and smart leaders. Of course everyone can fight and be useful in combat as well... but imo the focus in a sandbox should not be entirely put on the fighting aspect.
The perfect sandbox in my mind would have a near-perfect balance between the following elements :
- Clean PvP (City sieges, Duels, Racial conflicts, etc)
- Combat against monsters in the wilderness (PvE)
- World exploration
- Structures built by players (Houses, shops, cities, bridges, ships, everything...)
- Player-driven economy
- Politics and diplomacy (Alliances, war declaration, Peace treaties, non-aggression pacts, etc)
- Crafting
I think you highlighted the major problem with some sandbox elements. Most people play games, RPGs in particular, to have fun and achieve something outside of real life like being a hero that slays the evil monster or finding that special treasured item that might save the world from destruction. If you make a "game" where it seems like actual real work to play and achieve, then you will only attract the most hardcore players that are into that type of play style. Unfortunately, these folks are a severe minority amongst video gamers and companies out to make money could never go for this purist style of a "sandbox" game.
Now, that is not to say that all elements of sandbox are bad, but they still have to be constrained. I think the list you have posted is very resonable in the MMORPG game design realm. However, one of the core principles of an MMORPG is that all features must be accessible by all players. If this principle is not adhered to, then players will get the feeling of being "left out", or somehow treated unfairly. If the designers can implement these features in such a way that they are accessible to everyone, then should be no issues with it.
Lastly, a "game", by its core definition is governed by a set of rules(look it up). This mandates that parts of any game, MMO or not, must be governed by some ruleset or it would not be a game at all. An MMO with no rules would just be a virutal world much like Second Life. I think is why so many games choose to "hold the hand" of the players and guide them through the story line. It is the easiest way to design a game.
I too played SWG from the start, I also played early UO...
So you are telling me because SOE launched SWG without content, that all sandboxes are doomed to failure. Well, Funcom launched a very linear game AoC without content and it failed as well. Tabula Rasa failed because it had no content.
I think what we can learn and it should be common sense is that games will fail without content, period.
Still, SWG carried 250,000 subs with almost no content BECAUSE it had a great skill system and wide open worlds to explore. Now imagine had SOE actually added content on top of that wide open world and great skill system how well SWG would have done.
What a narrow view of things you take.
Tecmo Bowl.
There's a differance between owning an instanced house in LOTRO and being part of a faction that owns it's own outpost in 0.0 on EvE.
Op you will never be able to know that experiance since it's not your play style, just like I'll never enjoy an instanced house like you do.
To be honest I'm not remotely worried about about there not being a sandbox made by a decent developer. There will be some made just for the pure fact that you have all those people(not subs) playing EvE despite all it's larger flaws. Or how a no budget MMO like WurmOnline can get it's 3,000+ active player base and becomes sucessful enough to maintain itself while it grows.
There's really no reason to fight our play style it will eventually take a release or two of normal MMO's away but it won't be a threat. Most people really could care less about developing a world instead of playing in one. Me I love developing a world, I'm even one of those people that can thrive in second life and profit off it(though it's annoying since 90 percent of the world is private or something I wouldn't want to touch even in thought. Thankfully it's a huge world)
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
SWG had lots of content. I could never understand how people could sit there and claim there wasn't ever that much content. It's the only game I've ever played where everytime I logged in I always had something I needed to do.
Threads made on public forums telling people what they should and shouldnt talk about are always pointless...
Regardless of whether or not the original poster has a point, telling people what you are tired of seeing is similar to censorship. If youdont like the topics dont click the topic.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
The two sandbox MMOGs that I've played had one thing in common...lack of content! F#&k that shlt.
Thank god these sandbox people are in the minority!
How dare you to say that LOTRO or WoW have open land?? Can you walk at any direction anytime you want?
NO, you cant. And thats not what sandbox is about. Its about that the devs dont hold your hands during playtime. No "quests" and shit.