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Enough with the 'sandbox' whining
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I feel that the more people like Thunderous would repeat themself the more they will start beleive themselfs. Brainwashing yourself much?
You must have missed al the topics about Jedi to Hard
You must have missed the outrage of people who got bored cause they didn't have their handshold and where lost into things to do.
The complaints about lack of content cause people simply didn't know how to deal with a sandbox like game which to me pre-cu SWG was the closest as I personaly could get with a MMORPG.
There are so many more things that the majority of forum trolls wanted from pre-cu and it wasn't the fixes that WE WHO PLAYED THE GAME wanted but the forum trolls wanted the game in a complete different directions, and unfrotunaly SOE did listen to the community PROBLEM WAS they didn't listen to the actual players of the game.
It's a shame that people have such louzy memory, kinda scary to see these people brainwashing themselfs with things that they seem to have totaly forgotten.
People were complaining about the bugs and class imbalances, nobody was asking for a "New Game Experience."
I feel that the more people like Thunderous would repeat themself the more they will start beleive themselfs. Brainwashing yourself much?
You must have missed al the topics about Jedi to Hard
You must have missed the outrage of people who got bored cause they didn't have their handshold and where lost into things to do.
The complaints about lack of content cause people simply didn't know how to deal with a sandbox like game which to me pre-cu SWG was the closest as I personaly could get with a MMORPG.
There are so many more things that the majority of forum trolls wanted from pre-cu and it wasn't the fixes that WE WHO PLAYED THE GAME wanted but the forum trolls wanted the game in a complete different directions, and unfrotunaly SOE did listen to the community PROBLEM WAS they didn't listen to the actual players of the game.
It's a shame that people have such louzy memory, kinda scary to see these people brainwashing themselfs with things that they seem to have totaly forgotten.
People who where actualy playing the game were complaining about the bugs and class imbalances, nobody was asking for a "New Game Experience." unfortunately the majority of players of the game where NOT the majority of forum posters, once you understand this you it will open your eye's to the more Truth, and further more please read + understand before you hit the reply button. Cause if we who enjoyed the game where the loudest on forums we wold have never gotten the NGE, but I know that is to much for some to comprehend.
WTF do game bugs have to do with what type of game an MMO is?
That is hands down one of the most retarded notions I've ever seen on these forums.
I feel that the more people like Thunderous would repeat themself the more they will start beleive themselfs. Brainwashing yourself much?
You must have missed al the topics about Jedi to Hard
You must have missed the outrage of people who got bored cause they didn't have their handshold and where lost into things to do.
The complaints about lack of content cause people simply didn't know how to deal with a sandbox like game which to me pre-cu SWG was the closest as I personaly could get with a MMORPG.
There are so many more things that the majority of forum trolls wanted from pre-cu and it wasn't the fixes that WE WHO PLAYED THE GAME wanted but the forum trolls wanted the game in a complete different directions, and unfrotunaly SOE did listen to the community PROBLEM WAS they didn't listen to the actual players of the game.
It's a shame that people have such louzy memory, kinda scary to see these people brainwashing themselfs with things that they seem to have totaly forgotten.
People who where actualy playing the game were complaining about the bugs and class imbalances, nobody was asking for a "New Game Experience." unfortunately the majority of players of the game where NOT the majority of forum posters, once you understand this you it will open your eye's to the more Truth, and further more please read + understand before you hit the reply button. Cause if we who enjoyed the game where the loudest on forums we wold have never gotten the NGE, but I know that is to much for some to comprehend.
The "truth" is that a majority of the forum posters weren't asking to scrap the current game design.
What give you the idea that we are stopping you from having one, or even able to stop you.
Or you are blaming us for the fact that no developer pay attention to you or your friend?
Developers do not publish sandbox game of your style because they expect poor profits from such products. As for your hopes on Darkfall, good luck. I have better faith in the dog next door than in Darkfall develpers. You view my view.
Amen brother
SWG was not a true sand box so it seems you are the one that doesn't know what the term means either. There has only been one so far. Now go do something productive and stop whining about the whiners.
SWG was not a true sand box so it seems you are the one that doesn't know what the term means either. There has only been one so far. Now go do something productive and stop whining about the whiners.
Sandbox comes in various flavours. SWG provided tools to the players... those tools allowed unmatched Character Customization, interior design to allow immersion and roleplaying, faction bases for PVP and no restrictions on them. While Broken, you could become whoever you wanted to be and everything was player made. Heck, even today on Sunrunner, there's a bunker with my old stuff hidden. It's fun to know that even if my items are crap since NGE, some people still cherish them as ancient relics. So somewhere in-game, someone has my legendary Carbines and my uber T21.
See that's the whole point. People didn't played SWG for crappy epic loots... they played for the community and their guild. The mindset was very different and while you don't have 2000 quests per city, you could still do some missions for some XP and cash.
SOE sucked at taking care of the game but the concept of "Providing good tools" was there. What does a game like WOW has to offer to their community aside from the following:
- PVP grounds
- Loots
- Quests
- Dungeons
That in my book is not alot of features. In EVE alone, there's maybe 60 times more things to do then in a linear MMO.
I think you actually highlighted a major problem with non-sandbox elements, especially for RPGs. Having fun and achieving something outside of the possibilities of real life means being able to use your imagination and accomplishing self-made goals that don't feel like they were intentionally placed on the other side of a big metal hoop.
There is nothing worse for a real roleplayer than feeling like killing a big red dragon is just like the real-life work at the office.
Just because SWG was a poorly executed sandbox MMORPG doesn't mean that they all have to be.
Ah good ol sanbox games. I got problems with pure sandbox games.
1. No goal. Sure you have an open world to explore on your own, but it seems your only goal is to gain money and gain levels / skills. That is all. There is no epic story to really follow.
2. Large division of rich and poor. Unless you have a high level friend in game, or you start your game the same time as everyone else, there's a good chance your superhero is gonna end up a super wimp for a very long time. Sandbox economies are harsh. Like a real economy, it is nearly impossible to start from nothing and become rich. You need help (aka parents) to kick start you.
The most common thing I see on the Eve boards is, "Is there a non PvP server?" Why? because it is ridiculously hard to start up in that game due to people blowing up your ships all the time. If you mange to get around that you still have to compete in a harsh economy of goods.
3. No direction. This relates to the first problem. There is no epic story to follow. When you travel the world you are only given wimpy pathetic quest. Every once i a while you will hit a good quest line and get a great reward. But the quest line won't have you saving the world or taking stopping a portal of doom form opening. You'll mostly take down a gang leader or something. There are also no ingame cutscenes in open world. With no true story to move things along, you get no cutscenes with voice acting etc.
Maybe oI'm wrong on this point because Age of Conan had lots of cutscenes on Tortage sidequest. But everything in Tortage was dirven by the main story.
4. Deadzones everywhere. Every MMO has deadzones but sandbox ones have lots of them. Everyone hangs out in 1 or 2 zones because the items or quest are good there. The rest of the world is barren. It is hard to get a group for any activities outside the hot zones. Yuck.
Anarchy Online had some Sandbox elements. I remember huge dead zones in that game. The only thing I knew to do was grab quest from a Kiosk and head tot he instance hoping that it would lead me to a hot spot that was my level. I was lost playing the game and had no clue where to go. There was no story to follow so I lost interest soon after.
Meridon explains the rest best.
1) Correction: no goal spoonfeeding.
2) Happens in the United States in real life, it definitely could happen in a game.
3) Well, to be fair, you probably can't go in the straight down direction, so at least they are helping you with that.
4) There need to be deadzones in a sandbox game or there is nowhere to expand or find refuge.
I got major problems with MMORPGs that don't have sandbox game structures. One of us isn't going to get what we want out of the next game being developed that they want to call an MMO. How about it be you, for once?
Number one reason the Sandbox MMO will ALWAYS fail....
Because the bigger the loser you are in the real world is a direct correlation to how successful you are in the sandbox.
Since time is the 'currency" in an MMO, the biggest basement dwelling, dope smoking, 40 year old never left home momma's boy crowd, will be the one with the most time to waste building their online evil empire.
Followed closely by the pimply faced, 12-14 year old geek boy, never have nor will have a date crowd.
Followed closely by the stay at home, neglect their four screaming kids all day long, stay at home mom; but strangely enough is everyone's mother in the game crowd.
Oh lets not forget the hyper college kids doped up on caffeine about to fail out of college next semester crowd.
Yeah these will be the leaders in the sandbox MMO. What a crowd.
Much as I enjoy the theme park MMOs, it's been a while since we had a decent sandbox and I reckon there would be a decent amount of interest in one.
I'm getting increasingly frustrated with all the hand holding in most MMOs and the lack of variety.
If the EVE people made a land based MMO I'm sure it would be a big success, I would certainly want to play.
and to the OP. I don't have any real need to be a leader. In every single MMO, sandbox or not it is the same crowd that gets to the top. I just want a chance to do what I want in my game time. When I played pre-NGE SWG the only thing I ever did was make and sell clothes as a tailor, and I still had fun.
Its funny because I can think of more problems with democracy than sandbox style games, but we haven't given up on democracy yet. Pffftttt I know there is no relation between the two, just saying..
I agree with what a couple people have said in this thread; bugs and lack of content are what made the sandbox vision fail, not the other way around. People buy into the core development philosophies of the game they are sold, and I think every game that's shifted its vision has failed to keep their subscribers. There is a market for the sandbox gamer who wants a real community, real guild, and not these plastic goal driven gamers toting their Donkey Kong Point gear.
I'm curious about the logic here. Are you saying that the world is in short supply of losers who will pay for an MMO?
While posting on an MMORPG forum yourself?
And what does it have to do with sandbox/non-sandbox?
The thing that bothers me about sandboxes is that the fans of these games really like to believe they are better than someone who enjoys other type of games.
"spoon fed" "theme park" and the other things that some person on page 3 or 4 mentioned, they all just seem like quick jabs at those of us who prefer more of a game in our...game. Apparently sandbox players are superior because, unlike the rest of us, they have to "think" where to go or "think" what to do.
Now one of the problems is that the idea of a sandbox game is largely varied. Some people think it is just having a skill based system, some think it needs to allow the player base to entirely play in the world as they want. Some think a sandbox game needs to not have quests in it, and have no predetermained route to go.
Here is the thing, under some definitions I find a lot of MMORPG's to fall under the idea and notion of a "sandbox game". In WoW you can, believe it or not, develop your character to your liking and set them out loose in a world. Too many people find quests bad, but the thing is is that even in the real world people have "quests" they need to do. Their job, for example, may as well just be a string of quests from the same "quest giver".
This is what I don't understand. Players seem to think that in a sandbox game you HAVE to simply follow your own path without ever taking advice. But in the real world this doesn't happen often. People need to follow certain "quest givers" (jobs) and eventually they will get better after doing so many tasks that they will get "promoted" (level) and will be given more difficult tasks to do.
The other idea is that, in WoW, you don't have to follow the quest givers. You can go damn where you want to and the thing is (just like in the real world) you probably shouldn't expect to do very good without a job (quests).
So, really, what is the meaning of a sandbox? Or a sandbox game?
i was in star war and only time i ever quested was when the CU was added befor that i did what ever i wanted that is what sand box games are YOU MAKE YOUR OWN FUN if you need some one to hold your hand and tell you how to have fun then you have no imagination that is the point of a sand box you DO WHAT YOU WANT !
A misconception. A sandbox has far more game structure than other types of games - it's just game structure that can usually be spliced together with other parts of the game and is usually much more diverse in function.
I suspect its the real reason more sandbox-style games haven't come out. Because they are hard and costly to develop, not because they wouldn't appeal to a mass market.
For the record I think you might be much better than me.
There is a lot of confusion about what makes a sandbox, but I've noticed two camps pretty much. Those who dislike the idea of a sandbox think it's a game that lacks certain features. Direction, content, rules of conduct, casual play and so on.
Those who support the idea define it by what it does have. The particulars vary, but common features include choice, skill based system or similar, customization, crafting economy and so on.
To me the difference is that a sandbox attempt to be a "world simulation". In a normal game, everyone is playing the content that the developers put in. They may team up to achieve goals, but for the most part everyone is playing their own game, with other players to help you once in awhile.
In a sandbox, other players ARE the game. You compete and cooperate them in a number of ways. Physical, economic, political and so on. Players work together to build the "world" they live in, and it's shaped in a large way by their actions.
That's what I generally mean when I say "sandbox". Maybe something like "virtual world" would be a better term, but this is what the word means to me.
If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.
Think you've just set a new record for stupidity .. grats
There is a lot of confusion about what makes a sandbox, but I've noticed two camps pretty much. Those who dislike the idea of a sandbox think it's a game that lacks certain features. Direction, content, rules of conduct, casual play and so on.
Those who support the idea define it by what it does have. The particulars vary, but common features include choice, skill based system or similar, customization, crafting economy and so on.
To me the difference is that a sandbox attempt to be a "world simulation". In a normal game, everyone is playing the content that the developers put in. They may team up to achieve goals, but for the most part everyone is playing their own game, with other players to help you once in awhile.
In a sandbox, other players ARE the game. You compete and cooperate them in a number of ways. Physical, economic, political and so on. Players work together to build the "world" they live in, and it's shaped in a large way by their actions.
That's what I generally mean when I say "sandbox". Maybe something like "virtual world" would be a better term, but this is what the word means to me.
I can certainly get behind that definition of a sandbox. I guess my point is that in most MMOs still the player base does make up a good amount of what happens in a game.
The thing is, acording to this definition, almost every PvP game should be considered a sandbox right? Players are the game in a PvP game. Likewise I find it kind of hard to define it for PvE because a person can look at it in two ways:
For example, a person can look at a boss in an MMORPG and see it as something that you just have players to help you with. The boss is part of the game.
Another person can see that same thing as a group of players banding together and they come across a boss to defeat. The players in this case are the "game" and the boss is simply content.
Maybe I'm nitpicking it a bit now but I still think that a lot of MMORPG's can fit under the bill of at least a somewhat sandbox game. I think that MMORPG's, by nature, allow you to do this.
A good example is Oblivion. While you can follow the main quest line you certainly don't have to. Of course it might not be a good example because of the saleability of monsters, but you get the idea.
I think that perhaps placing the idea that players have some impact on the world could place it under the notion of a sandbox? If that was the case then WAR would most certainly be a 'sandbox' (sieges and RvR has a direct impact on the game world) but then again even certain events in WoW could easily be considered sandbox by nature. For example the opening of the gates in AQ, or as a more recent example the opening of the sunwell.
What give you the idea that we are stopping you from having one, or even able to stop you.
Or you are blaming us for the fact that no developer pay attention to you or your friend?
Developers do not publish sandbox game of your style because they expect poor profits from such products. As for your hopes on Darkfall, good luck. I have better faith in the dog next door than in Darkfall develpers. You view my view.
Developers do not publish sandbox games because they are unimaginative and lazy like you, not because it wouldn't turn a profit.
The first sign of someone losing an argument, or not having enough intelligence or knowledge about a subject to argue the point, is to attack the person making the point.
Stick to the issue and leave the personal attacks out of it. They just make you look foolish.
Venge Sunsoar