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==__McCain and Obama's Tax Plan__==
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Obama isn't Bill Clinton. I doubt Obama will perform in the same aspect as Clinton. Clinton was a fiscal conservative and ran on it, on the other hand thus far Obama has made plans to increase government spending by over $200 Billion. Balancing the budget isn't about being a democrat. Its about being fiscally responsible and having a Congress that shares that view. We don't have that right now. When Clinton was in office, it wasn't a democratic majority in congress that got his budget passed.
What I would like see passed is an increased taxation on imports and/or tax incentives for production in the US so corporations have more need of people here in the States. But we also won't get that with all the pay-offs our politicians recieve.
So your saying to kill the rest of the world and take it over??? I thought that Libs were anti war.. J/K ;p
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
So your saying to kill the rest of the world and take it over??? I thought that Libs were anti war.. J/K ;p
I'm not sure where you get that from my post. I thought I was quite clear, a growing economy generates wealth. The better the economy does, the more currency changes hands. The more currency that changes hands, the more a government's tax revenue increases. No j/k.
To increase taxes is not the only solution to increasing tax revenue. Yet neither candidate, either conservative or liberal, has come to the table with a solid economic plan to increase growth. Tinkering with the tax laws is not a solid economic plan. Neither is borrowing to give rebates, or windfall profits taxes.
As to the benefits of the Roman Empire, are you suggesting that that people were worse off under the Roman Empire than they would have been without it? If so, please elaborate.
increasing growth in only one side of the equation. i agree olddaddy, we need more people to contribute to making the pie and not just eating it. innovation is a big factor too.
i like my pie with ice cream on top. warm pie with melting ice cream. served and cooked by a mexican in an all american diner.
-I will subtlety invade your psyche-
Revisionist History much?
Firstoff, the Great Depression was not caused by Socialism, unless you wish to believe that Republican Presidents Calvin Coolidge (1923-1929) and Herbert Hoover (1929-1933) were Socialists. If you believe that, read no further, as there is no mental help available for you here. If you don't believe that the Republican Party was the Party of Socialism in the 1920s, then either the Depression was caused by bank failures as a result of speculative "margin" stock loans, or it was all Bill Clinton's fault. You pick.
Second, disposible income saved from the WW 2 days did not lead to American economic prosperity. When the US servicemen returned home from the war, unemployment was high until they could be re-absorbed back into the economy. It was the jobs that were created rebuilding the manufacturing capabilities of those countries with destroyed industrial base that created the jobs. Basically, Italy, Germany, Japan, and to a degree France had to buy even the tooling to make the tooling from the only industrialized nation in the world which was capable of meeting their demand. Everyone bought American. In short, the American economy grew by laps and bounds, and the capital of the world accumulated here.
Third, WW 2 was caused by a short sighted post WW 1 policy that focused on punishing Germany economically. At the end of WW 2 this mistake was not repeated, the Marshall Plan to rebuild the German and Japanese industry created jobs, a stable government in both countries, and resulted in trading PARTNERS, not a master-slave colonial type economic relationship. Today this mutual trading partnership has created such an integration of the US-German, and US-Japanese economy that we are deeply allied, not looking to go to war with each other over scarce resources.
Now, on to the tax plans.....
Neither candidate's tax plan addresses the basic need for an economic change. Both attempt to use taxes for public policy, a use that tax policy does poorly. What is needed is an economic plan to grow the American economy and integrate the Chinese market with the American market in a partnership that mutually benefits each partner. Similiar to the US-German and US-Japanese integration under the Marshall Plan.
Arguements against universal health care (along the lines of Federal Employee Health Benefits System) make an assumption that capital is finite, that is, payment must come from someone. These arguements ignore the fact that capital is infinite, it can be created by creating new markets which then become new customers. In short, you grow the economic pie by allowing more people to share a piece. These people then become consumers.
I noted in this thread some type of historical reference to the fall of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire fell when it stagnated, stopped expending. As long as Rome expanded, they also expanded economically, and created new markets and new consumers for everyone in the empire. In short, Rome always had enough money for roads, bridges, legions, aquaducts, colliseums, games, pagents, parades, etc so long as their economy expanded. Once it stagnated, it was in trouble. In short, once they stopped allowing more people into the economic pie they collapsed.
My point is to address economic problems by adopting economic plans to grow the economy, not trying to do so thru tax plans. Tax plans should reflect raising revenue to operate the government, not tinkering with a variety of social and economic problems.
Neither candidate appears willing to do that.
no revision at all , Americans specifically rich americans started spending again creating jobs , growth , and hired alot of people createing the middle class again after it was destroyed by the depression. The overall effect of this was disposable income for the avg person. Instead of making just enough to scrape by.
You gave technical details to exactly what i claimed. The rich started spending , creating a middle class ( adding disposable income ) and that let it grown more as more compnies were formed to cater to this.
The stagnation of the roman empire was inded the cause why did it stagnate? , the weight of the few providing for the masses required so many resources that there was no more room for it to grow. Its hard to fund expansion when you have 10% of the population supporting the other 90.
Its pointless to cite stagnation , inflation as THE causes ,while at the same time avoiding the reson WHY there was stagnation , inflation all all the other symptoms of a failing economy.
The simplist form is that without a rich class there is no middle class. Creating ANY economy that punishes you for success or forces you to work harder so others dont have to you start to remove the Rich class placing MORE of a burden on the ones remaining . When that happens they get scared just like Avg Joe American who sees his neighbor lose his job and starts saving up for the day he loses his( buying less which in tuirns worrys another rich guy who cuts jobs or salaries etc...). They stop spending money and the middle class starts to disappear.
When the rich class gets to the point they are required to carry the burden of all other secorts of the population , historically they have stopped spending , roman times to right now ,causing all these other "causes" . By creating the same scenario as existed in the 1930 and 1940's ( like i said not word for word but it was a like-minded policy meaning the few must pay for the masses.) you will get the same results now as then.
Edit-
I agree that any future plan should address spending , not taxe plans. we KNOW we pay too much already , if we didnt there would not be refunds, and allow growth by not punishing a person for creating something be it a multi-billion dollar company with 100000 employees or the mom and pop photo-mat with mom dad and cousin Fred working.
Give people a reson to want to work, why try when sitting at home on your couch gets you free medical , school, money , food, mortage payment or subsidized housing payments etc.. why would ANYONE want to do more than that if the pay off for stepping over this line / level is work harder for even less as you dont get any of those benefits + you pay ALL the tax + ALL the cost to SS + ALL the cost to Universal Heath Care + whatever else congress decides.
I understand some people cant do better for whatever legitimate reason( yes help them 100%) , but i refuse to believe that 50% of American Citizens are invalids unable to do a single thing temselves to create oppurtunities. Thats what politicians are selling us. I am really quite disturbed that so many people believe this to be the case.
damn i cant spell for crap today sorry edit again for gross errors , im sure i didnt get them all either.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
That is one of my other concerns for the future of America, is innovation. Our public school system is based on memorize and regurgitate on a standardized test that determines school funding. It is an industrial age policy that does not encourage innovation, and school administrators don't really care as long as the funding pores in.
Think of it as working on the assembly line 8 hours a day putting the same part in the same place on every production unit that comes down the line. That is how our kids see school, there is no wonder and amazement in science or mathmatics to peak their interest. They are just going through the motions.
Consider the size of the Chinese or Indian population, for every one American child that "gets it" there will be 5 Indian or Chinese kids (at least) that "get it". Ultimately, the innovation and the ideas will shift from America to those countries unless we redefine our education system to get the kids interested.
Edit: was watching a news story about flooding in Florida, how are you doing, you high and dry?
So your saying to kill the rest of the world and take it over??? I thought that Libs were anti war.. J/K ;p
I'm not sure where you get that from my post. I thought I was quite clear, a growing economy generates wealth. The better the economy does, the more currency changes hands. The more currency that changes hands, the more a government's tax revenue increases. No j/k.
To increase taxes is not the only solution to increasing tax revenue. Yet neither candidate, either conservative or liberal, has come to the table with a solid economic plan to increase growth. Tinkering with the tax laws is not a solid economic plan. Neither is borrowing to give rebates, or windfall profits taxes.
As to the benefits of the Roman Empire, are you suggesting that that people were worse off under the Roman Empire than they would have been without it? If so, please elaborate.
Lol missed my bad joke so ill Elaberate.
You said,(The Roman Empire fell when it stagnated, stopped expending. As long as Rome expanded, they also expanded economically, and created new markets and new consumers for everyone in the empire) This says to things 1 that rome colapesed Becase it stoped makeing new Markets for it self, 2 it also reads as If rome hadent stoped attacking everyone arround it they wouldent have stagnated and died.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
Also Side note from looking ateveryones posts.
It looks like MOST of the people on here are a LOT closer then it looks like at first.
If everyone would make a Post in a Ideal world what they would like to see done to help the Econamy i think there would be some Interesting Simularitys.
Ill go first.(hope i can say this with out Fudgeing it up)
Ok First off We need to get spending back under Control. Both sides are Butchering us right and left.(pun Intended) As a Right winger I think A lot of the Spending should be taken back form Congress and given back to the states. Milatary, Highways and Railroads/ Bridges and dams Should all stay In government hands.
Second the People incharge Should not Be able to give them selves raises. this should be done by voters at the polls. Supreme Court Judges Should not have lifetime apointments to the bench. Every four years there should be a Reseating. 3 By the president, 3 Chosen by Congress and voted on by the states.(Winers that is) and 2 By the senate One by the Primary party, the other by the second Most populated party.(Incase the partys change for some reason) last Would be chosen from the Milatary's Courtrooms and he would be given a Discharge to serve on the bench. And Termlimits for Congress and the house.
(Ok that one wasent so mutch about the Econamy as it the System in general)
Third Take away all the Private money in the Politics. No more campaining for cash, Moveon.orging or Swiftboating the other side. This is BS. Make Every publicly Owned airwave station carry one add per side every hour If the canadate has say 15% of the popular vote. IE Obama and McCain would both recive free airtime nation wide on the basic airwaves, or any government Subsadised Broadcast. Its our airwaves that they are leaseing from the Public. If they dont like it they can go to cable. And ban all attack adds from Directly Endorsing or campaining on a Canadits behalf. they can talk about a party and why its beter but they should Not be allowed to Show the Face, Symbol, Or slogan of anyone Currently running in the state of the airing.
(Ok that one was only a small bit to do with the Ecanamy, well not really.. gata get back on track here)
Fourth Remove the Current tax system. All of it. The government should take a Basic sales tax On everything. Bought or sold in the Usa. Internet and otherwise. States should not have any sales tax, In its place there should be a Tax on gas, Servises, Property and (Brainfart will replace if it starts working)
School funds should be attached to the Student NOT the district. We pay more per Student than almost anycountry in the world and were what 18th place? Government is failing in this and If you look at BOTH canadates who dont send their kids to Public school, makes me wander why My kids should go there.
Milatary Should be shifted back in to a More self Sustaining mode So that Crazy ammounts of money arn't spent on Private contractors to take care of the Men and Women of the milatary. We allso need to take better care of those who Were Hurt in the Defence of our great land.
More Indepandance from Outside Sources. We need a GOOD energy plan to save us from ourselves. The current situation is crap. The enviromental Movement needs to fall off a bridge and die so we can get Good enviromental people in carge. In Norrway the Enviromental Movement is Working WITH the oil and gas Industrys and not agenst them. they are 90% independant of foren oils and gas. We need to stop this Corn ethanol Bullhockey. Its a total sham allways has been. Alge Grows at 1000+ times the rate that corn grows at. In Open pond alge farms you can get 20,000 gallons of Ethanol per acre vs 50? gallons per acre of corn. Solar, the current tech is Crap. Cost to mutch for the effect. There is a company that is Printing Silacon on to Sheets of allumanium and geting it to make solar power. Its only about 1/4 as good as a solar cell, But it costs 1/10 the price. Mutch better. Wind is great when it blows and liberals arnt blocking the Instalation of the offshore wind farms(Kennedy). And let the states Decide if Drilling offshore is worth it to them Not some Hippy in washington. All the Government money is going to the wrong people and Nothing is being done.
Healthcare, Im Complety agenst the idea of Government health care. If there was a System inplace like Olddaddy was saying that was more of a State run Insurance Program where the basics and what not were coverd Id be willing to live with that. Or a 50/50 system like britan is looking at might work allso. But waiting Months for Subpar service is crap. and Dont tell me im wrong. Im not. It won't be some magic Utopia where you walk in and get prompt service from the best and brightest. This isent the Startrek universe yet.
Social security is a Joke. Both sides have bled it dry to the point that it is 10 times bigger than the national Debt.
The war In Iraq is a Major Drain on the Econamy. But pointing and saying WE SHOULDNEVERA GONE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!1!! Is getting Old. Gess what WE ARE THERE, ITS TO LATE NOW! We can win this or lose it and have a Nother place in the world that hates us. Or we can Finish the fight and Hope that in the End Iraq is Stable and we have a friend in the Middle East. As I stated Earlier in this thread, The crazy costs are Partly due to the milatary haveing to be proped up By private contractors, Also its being caused by our love for people (yeah that sounds weard but its true) Not gana repost it but its upthere a page or two back.
The Idea that the Government can be Better Stewerds of my money is Retarted to me. They have failed at almost every task given to them by the american people. They have Shown over and Over that thay are Inept and greedy basterds In love with their own power. Obama is NOT gana help the Budget nor is mcCain, The only reason Clinton Scrubbed out the Debt is because Of the Republican Congress and His rubber stamp with Veto on it. Thats it. Not because the president Has So mutch power over the Dollar, Not because The republicans are so mutch better than the liberals at our money. It was because Nothing was done for 6 years.
Edit: God that was a big post.. I Feel better :P
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
That won't happen unless we have a revolution, and thats unlikely unless we suffer severe economic hardship far worse then what we are having right now.
Personally, I love the idea of increasing State powers and severely cutting federal powers. There is a beauty in it that our founding fathers understood but many people forget. We are not all the same and usually people of a region have a similiar demeanor. If you don't like how your state is run you can up and move to a different state with far less cost and hastle then switching countries.
Also what affects our lives the most are state legislation not federal ones. I would rather the majority of my taxes goes to the state instead.
Thanks for posting some concepts for solving our tax problems.
I, for one, am sick and tired of all the finger-pointing and trying to put all the blame on one group.
With all our current spending, and the fact that much of the money is borrowed, it only makes sense that taxes must increase. When you spend more you need to bring more in to pay the bills.
And borrowing is only good for the short run. Back before I paid off my credit cards, it was fun to spend the money I didn't have but eventually the bills showed up...
With interest.
It would have been a lot better to pay my credit card bills sooner than later. And paying them later added painful interest.
Would'nt we be better off to start dealing with our national debt now?
Im with ya. But cutting spending I feel will do more in the long term than A tax hike.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
Olddaddy.
im high and dry in NYC again.
spent about 3 weeks hitting the cyber pavement. netted 2 interviews. no luck.
so im hitting the cyber pavement from NYC. i have something stirring with lockheed martin. contract to hire position. waiting on finalization of background check. no interview neccessary. its looking good.
parents house is ok in FL. they're in a flood zone, pay the insurance and all. the place hasnt flooded in 36 years though. in fact, the global warming scare has made their insurance rise 2 years ago. i think that fellow who keeps wrongfully predicting the amount and severity of hurricanes to hit the US should be muffled.
-I will subtlety invade your psyche-