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WTB More Combat Features, PvP Right?
fingis
Member Posts: 207
I would like to see more complicated combat features in WAR. Things like charge, which is a teleport really, fear which is a cc, interrupts like kick where you can see a caster casting a spell with a long casting time and you can kick them, to many instants or almost instant cast spells in WAR. When I pvp in WAR, I feel like all I'm doing is casting my damage spell, then casting my heal spells, that's it--with maybe a group buff thrown in at the start.
I've got a protection warrior in WoW that I pvp with, low damage high on defenses. Even though he's in mostly greens, I can often times take down a spell caster in epics. An encounter might go something like this:
A lock dots me up. only defense i have is a ton of health
No rage so I run up to him while he's casting a spell, I can see the black smoke on his hands. I sheild bash, 2 sec silence with the talents. I can see him trying to figure out what is going wrong.
ham string, a snare. shield slam to remove a buff
i can tell he's going to fear me cause i can see his hands with the black smoke
zerker stance, berserk, immune to fear for 8 secs
he starts to run
intercept, 3 sec stun, hamstring
he gets a fear off, i'm dotted up again, he starts casting a shadow bolt
spell reflect--take that!, run up to him as he's casting, concussive blow, 5 sec stun, hamstring to snare.
he starts to cast
detarget him, intimidating shout, he doesn't run but his spell is interrupted. bandage--which is interrupted by his dots.
....
and so on. I think his dots killed me after I killed him. I couldn't get out of combat fast enough to eat.
I'm definately not the most skilled player, but you can see the intricacies of this combat. Move and counter move all happening quickly.
And the skills allow freedom. I remember watching this rogue stand on the bridge in AV and use his distract skill to turn mounted opponents 90 degrees and send them off the bridge.
I've seen hunters jump shot with a 360 spin and kite elite mobs to far off towns where they attacked unsuspecting players.
I stealthed into Orgimmar and ganked people as they came out of the hall of heroes flagged, I caused such a ruckus that I had 20 people looking for me, a half dozen hunters firing off their flares.
TLDR: I did buy WAR, but I'm a little disappointed in the combat. Is it too much to expect more combat features in a new game and not less?
I've got a protection warrior in WoW that I pvp with, low damage high on defenses. Even though he's in mostly greens, I can often times take down a spell caster in epics. An encounter might go something like this:
A lock dots me up. only defense i have is a ton of health
No rage so I run up to him while he's casting a spell, I can see the black smoke on his hands. I sheild bash, 2 sec silence with the talents. I can see him trying to figure out what is going wrong.
ham string, a snare. shield slam to remove a buff
i can tell he's going to fear me cause i can see his hands with the black smoke
zerker stance, berserk, immune to fear for 8 secs
he starts to run
intercept, 3 sec stun, hamstring
he gets a fear off, i'm dotted up again, he starts casting a shadow bolt
spell reflect--take that!, run up to him as he's casting, concussive blow, 5 sec stun, hamstring to snare.
he starts to cast
detarget him, intimidating shout, he doesn't run but his spell is interrupted. bandage--which is interrupted by his dots.
....
and so on. I think his dots killed me after I killed him. I couldn't get out of combat fast enough to eat.
I'm definately not the most skilled player, but you can see the intricacies of this combat. Move and counter move all happening quickly.
And the skills allow freedom. I remember watching this rogue stand on the bridge in AV and use his distract skill to turn mounted opponents 90 degrees and send them off the bridge.
I've seen hunters jump shot with a 360 spin and kite elite mobs to far off towns where they attacked unsuspecting players.
I stealthed into Orgimmar and ganked people as they came out of the hall of heroes flagged, I caused such a ruckus that I had 20 people looking for me, a half dozen hunters firing off their flares.
TLDR: I did buy WAR, but I'm a little disappointed in the combat. Is it too much to expect more combat features in a new game and not less?
Comments
This isn't WoW.
... everything you mention is based on 1 person. One guy did this, I did this. WoW is a game more geared towards the single player.
In WAR what was awesome for me was getting with a GROUP of 6, avoiding the zerg and capturing an entire zone while we were grossly outnumbered. Also when I joined with a GROUP of 24 and we worked together to capture a keep. This is much more of a team game than WoW.
WoW BG's = everyone runs off on their own and the team with the most no lifers in epic gear wins. WAR Scenarios = everyone runs off on their own and they lose horribly no matter what gear they use.
WAR is a PvP game which is all about combat. It's new.
It should have more stuff and not less.
It doesn't have to have more when it is a completely different game. It has WAY MORE World PvP, team work, RvR with objectives, and dynamic battlefields. It doesn't have to be a one man gankfest where CC is the most prevailant tactic. It is a different type of game.
I don't mind people whining about wow vs war. And then they start japping war = wow2 blablabla.
And then you get people MAKE WAR MORE WOW.
Geesh make up your mind. If you love wow SOOOO MUCH then go play wow geesh.
I think the combat mechanics will be patched up...rather fixed up after release. This is why the beta is around to receive feedback and if there is enough demand, changes will be applied.
Warhammer is not about strategy or tactics.. it's about zerging. Whoever has the most players wins.
There is very little CC, interupts or any real mechanism besides straight DPS. Your team of 20 people runs up to their group of 10 people, and you all do as much burst damage as possible. It doesn't matter who you are fighting, you will do the same thing to everyone.
Oh.. and make sure you roll a class with DOT's.. they will make you level much faster than everyone else.
Ok, theres a few things I have to comment on in teh OP's post.
Before I do though let me say that I have not preordered yet and have played only a bit, but what I have to say isn't based on mechanics of combat, but design instead.
The scenario you described between your prot war and a necro is indeed a valid point for your case, but I think the defining factor that seperates the design in these two games is that because WAR has "less" going on (yet to be seen) theres more elbow room to make decisions.
Don't post yet, let me explain.
I too played a warrior in WoW, for a long time, soley for PvP and I can say that your scenario is quite an accurate portrayal of that match up, the issue is what could you of done differently in that fight? Sure you could of reflected a spell then intercepted instead of the other way around, but in the end each class match up comes down to the same dance and the only deciding factor is gear and what timers are up.
Take Frost mages for example.
Warrior charges, mage blinks or novas
warrior trinkets or intercepts
Mage uses the other timer, either blink or nova
warrior counters with his other timer
Now the warrior has 15 sec to kill the mage and the only escape left to the mage is frost block or try for a poly, which the warrior is waiting for.
Happens all the time right? because it has to happen that way, if either player tries something different they loose. Warrior doesn't stay on the mage? game over, warrior tries to run? game over, warrior tries to attack someone else, game over. Sure maybe something gets resisted, or a timer isn't up (trinket Bah!!) but how many fights have you had where you know what spec they are and you know what you need to do, ability after ability, until the fights over? Hopefully I will be able to walk into a fray in WAR, pick an advasary, and have no freaking clue what his order of attack will be.
What I've seen so far about WAR combat is that its slower (something I'm not thrilled about) but its less dependant on a tailored, rigid set of moves depending on what class/spec your facing and more about having the right tactics and morale abilities picked before hand (something I approve of) and good reactions to things you might not expect.
Now I could be talking out my ass, and I am in no way saying what I think is right, this is just my opinion. I left WoW because every fight felt the same and eventually after arenas, everyone looked the same which didn't help. hopefully, there will be a little more room for a personal flavor when speccing out a character and combat options, but we will see. if it sucks then it sucks, but I think it might be worth a shot.
ichi said: What I've seen so far about WAR combat is that its slower (something I'm not thrilled about) but its less dependant on a tailored, rigid set of moves depending on what class/spec your facing and more about having the right tactics and morale abilities picked before hand (something I approve of) and good reactions to things you might not expect
If you have fewer choices to make during combat, you're saying that is good?
The thing about PvP is sure, a frost mage will almost always kill a warrior, but say I notice a wall, and I run behind it so the mage can't target me? That's introducing something new and unexpected for the mage. PvP is better than scripted PvE because your human opponant will throw things at you you never expected.
Removing freedom and choice is not a good thing in pvp combat. Its a new game and should have more combat features, not less.
Wows game is based around group and single player combat. Jesus you think because a player can beta another player by themselves its not grp based??? lol get a grip warhamemr has been poorly designed from a combat point of view and the fanbois cover it up with u cant play war anywya u want to, u can only play it if u have 5 healers behind u. Lol funny thing is the war fanbois would say its carebear a warrior is wow going with a priest and paladin slaughering people, and would say u want true skill come by urslef and see how good u are. Now its a fact after thousands can see the combat is lacking its covered by the fanbois with u can only play ina grp in this game. Like i said this game in no way improves on anything Daoc has or even Wow has. Sorry to say after all the hype and buullshit that paul barnet spewed its just another overhyped mmo like Aoc.
i agree about the combat. although it seemed faster as i got higher level. however. you are wrong
on every aspect of your comment, but hey WoW seems like your game and goodluck there
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out of curiosity what level did you get to?
<img src='http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000031cd29/signature.png'></img>;
And you can't do that in WAR because...? At least the mage won't blink up in front of you, frost nova you, and Ice Lance (or whatever it's called) you while you're dumb enough to try to find a wall to run behind. Right?
Oh wait, he will.
Level 10.
I know where you are going with this, but I've read through the skills, you can see all of them at the trainers. There are no new combat features. There's no charge, no distract, no teleport, no fear, and so on. It does have damage, dots, heals, hots, buffs but so do all of the free to plays.
The most inovative feature Mythic introduced was solid toons. If someone is fleeing, you can run around in front of them, after a snare, and stop them dead in their tracks.
I don't think it's too much to expect more from a new game or at least the same ol, what Mythic is selling us is less.
Now I have only heard a little bit about the morale abilities, but wouldnt these potentially be the more diverse and potent abilities that everyone wants? I'm not an expert but from what I've read, some of these abilities kinda rock the house and I would assume that the trainers that offer the standard skills would only offer the meat and potatoes. Again I'm not sure, I'm just asking.
Kinda like how the really cool stuff is in teh talent tree in WoW, maybe the neat stuffs in the morale abilities.
To OP,
Realize though that this isn't WoW 2. I mean that it is a different game with a different take on how PvP should be played. It is that fact that attracts other players to WAR and separates them from WoW.
Also realize this game is still in beta, WoW has been out for years now, that makes a huge difference in balance and content and bugs.
THey explained along time ago why there were no spells like 'fear' everything is 1) kept to Warhammer Lore...i've never seen a warhammer tabletop game where the Mini's suddenly turn around and run in fear. 2) they want to make it fun...in large scale pvp it is NOT fun to get memzed, feared, etc and basically miss out on the entire fight or remain dead the whole time which is exactly what would happen. You'd just have roaming bands of CC classes destroying the fun. 3) if you want to destract a caster up your willpower...willpower ups healing AND the chance to disrupt spells while you bea tthe snot out of them.
You dont' need CC's etc with collision detection & LOS all of these things are added layers to pvp..PvP in WAR is rather indepth as it is it just isn't doing it the traditional WoW way with a ton of crap skills to constantly balance.
I realize that WAR isn't Wow.
The pvp features in WAR are comparable to a free to play MMO, damage, DOT, HOT, heal, root, snare and buff.
The only thing inovative was the solid toon thing. I would snare an opponent and then run in front of them to stop them cold.
I'm really expecting more from WAR since it's new and WoW is 4 years old.
We'll see, but I'm betting the boring combat in WAR loses them subscribers, a lot of people will subscribe come launch but WAR servers will be ghost servers in three months time.
For some reason you equate CC to being the ground for whether an MMO is F2P quality or worth buying. Obviously you can't stand combat without CC and that isn't going to change here. Personally CC ruins PVP combat to me. It is like if I were to play a first player game and I run around a corner and all of a sudden I start walking in circles and lose control of my character.
This isn't a solo based pvp game and CC lends itself to more solo tactics. I am sorry but this combat system will probably never be for you. You can keep trying to convince us that it isn't for us but it would be nice if you let us make that decision.
Also on the first player note: If you compare your reasoning then there is no reason to buy any FPS since Doom 1. All you do in combat is shoot different weapons.
We don't want Fear in WAR, its stupid. We don't want stealth we don't want charge we don't want all that. keep that stuff out of our game.
Your warrior vs warlock fight is a complete lie. a prot warrior in greens doesn't stand a chance against a lock in epcis, or anyone in epics. my priest in epics, HOLY, could beat up a prot warrior in greens.
you charge, and its invisible succy charms you. they move to max range, snare you, DoT you up, and then kite you around till nightfall procs and they get an instant cast shadowbolt. if you ever get off an intercept they will simply trinket out of it and deathcoil. you'll do less than 1k damage to a warlock 1v1 and they'll dance on your body. it will be worse in WoTLK when soul link moves to an 11 point talent and every lock will have it, and still be able to get their 51 point aff or destro talent.
You claim WAR doesn't have things like shield bash, except it does. and by level 10 every tank has it, it's called TAUNT. yes your WoW taunt doesn't do anything in PvP but in WAR it interupts any skill building up, and causes 30% increased damage until they hit you 3 times.
If you are going to say WAR needs more combat features, at least do a decent job at it. bring up the things WAR is actually missing, not things you just haven't noticed.
Not saying WAR's combat is better than WoW's, just that all your comments about it are incorrect.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
ooo hate to do this to you, but you're wrong about that. large creatures can cause fear, or simply losing by a lot in an encounter with another unit could cause your mini's to rout and run away.
there were lots of mechanics about fear, mostly with things like giants, treemen ect ect. however your second point was correct. they took out fear for FUN, because fearlock + DoTs = people have been crying about that over on the WoW forums for years now.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Sounds boring. You say this game is about the group PvP. WoW also obviously had the same, with raids and arena. So to say that this game is about group while WoW is about 1-person means that the single characters in this game are boring and require several people to make it interesting.
Garbage.
yes, thats why its a MULTIPLAYER game, it requires several people to make it interesting. your logic is horrible and I'm going to assume you aren't actually stupid enough to believe it, so you are just trolling.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
I've watched alotta WAR beta pvp movies and like alotta people've pointed out it's obvious that while WAR pvp system is great, WAR pvp mechanic is poor. Looks like the game is still fun but I hope Mythic will change thier minds and implement more CC in WAR to make it more diverse and interactive. Then this game will shine like a diamond.
CC is BS. WoW pvp sucks. Mythic learned from DAoC. End of story. I've had enough of CC.
Please don't talk about pvp and WoW in the same sentence. Everyone know that PvP in WoW
is BS. I personally can't stand WoW combat, and believe it or not alot of others agree. Please
go play WoW if you want that stuff in the game. I personally would cancel everything to do with
mythic if they put CC into WAR. Deal with it deal with yourself. I do not run in fear, turn into a
lamb, fall asleep standing up, and i don't want these in my game. Enjoy WoW
get off your crutch and learn another way of playing
<img src='http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000031cd29/signature.png'></img>;
First off, warhammer is about strategy and tactics.. Not zerging, zerging are the morons who will get destroyed by a group who know wtf they are doing.
Second, all this talk of no CC....all of those things are IN the game, but people think, "i played preview weekend and got to lvl 20" do you think the fuckin' game ended there? lol you morons. Almost every class has some form of silence, kick, bash, charge..they are all in there just like wow.. you have to get to end game?
Did you have all your lvl 70 warriors' abilities at lvl 1-20? Thats what I thought.
-- Games are never as fun as their hype. It's still doing the same things as 90% of the MMOs ever since EQ1 wrote the template for 3D MMOs.
-- You can't ever be that newbie again. Not Warhammer, not WoW, not AoC, or any other MMO out there claiming originality.
-- You, I, and many other people won't be satisfied until once again we can be immersed,as newbs once more, into a mysterious realm of which we know nothing.
Again, another poster bolstering lack of CC. There is CC in the game LOL. Rogues get stealth at like lvl 2 or 4 in WoW, you don't get it until 10 in Warhammer, but witch-elves also have kick abilities, and silence and so on later in the game too.
GO READ THE CLASS DESCRIPTIONS AND ALL of their abilities up to level 40, don't post on something you have no knowledge about. Warrior's do get charge, rogues get a kick like ability, healers get a silence, everyone seems to think that level 20 was the cap of this game and that was the end all. lol, Rogues don't even get cloak of shadows until like 66, and it's one of their strongest abilities. Stop assuming the game resides in the level range of 1-20.
-- Games are never as fun as their hype. It's still doing the same things as 90% of the MMOs ever since EQ1 wrote the template for 3D MMOs.
-- You can't ever be that newbie again. Not Warhammer, not WoW, not AoC, or any other MMO out there claiming originality.
-- You, I, and many other people won't be satisfied until once again we can be immersed,as newbs once more, into a mysterious realm of which we know nothing.