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Questions about Full Looting in PVP
How will full looting in PVP affect the ability of players to enjoy mass PVP battles?
What comes to mind is this:
In most MMOs, you gather groups of players to PVP for a few hours at a time. In any particular PVP session, you will most likely die many times.
In a game with full PVP looting, how will this play out? If I die in PVP and my killer loots all my gear, will I have to spend the next week replacing all my gear before I can PVP again? If so, how will it really be possible/practical to maintain continuous ongoing PVP battles?
I think that full-loot PVP is a cool idea if implemented properly, but has anyone given any serious thought to how it will affect the playability of the game?
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Comments
answer here...
/forums.darkfallonline.com/
That's not very helpful. You might as well have said:
Answer here...
www.google.com
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Basically you will have to re-equip yourself. As such you will need to maintain large amounts of secondary equipement in your bank so you can rejoin the battle to be killed and looted again. DF brings a unque twist to the MMO grind in that you will have to grind/hunt a ton of equipement for storage prior to any big maintained battle.
As far as I can see skilled players (or those that just have more time to play to build their skills), or the gank/griefer crowd will quickly become very rich while the average, or casual player will have the choice of continuing to pay to entertain / equipe the the higher skilled players, or find another MMO.
That's not very helpful. You might as well have said:
Answer here...
www.google.com
sorry i'm idiot
Basically you will have to re-equip yourself. As such you will need to maintain large amounts of secondary equipement in your bank so you can rejoin the battle to be killed and looted again. DF brings a unque twist to the MMO grind in that you will have to grind/hunt a ton of equipement for storage prior to any big maintained battle.
As far as I can see skilled players (or those that just have more time to play to build their skills), or the gank/griefer crowd will quickly become very rich while the average, or casual player will have the choice of continuing to pay to entertain / equipe the the higher skilled players, or find another MMO.
If its anything like original UO items (armor/weapons) will be of little value to the winner and will thus be left on the corpse. Only a true griefer would strip you to the bones. Other items however will most certainly be looted, ie money, any rare armor/weapon (by god I hope those are rare and far between), reagents, potions etc. Anyways, armor/weapons shouldnt be an issue if the devs play it smart.
M M O S S I N C E |1998|
P L A Y I N G F A L L E N E A R T H
T I M E I N V E S T E D |uo|swg|wow|fe|
B E T A T E S T E R |rz|tr|hgl|potbs|potc|gw|hz|wish|fe|wow|df|war|allods|cog|lu|
w w w . c l o w n g u i l d . o r g
First of all let me make it clear: if you die, you wont need to spend a week getting new gear. Maybe 2 hours or something average.
Gear is not as hard to get by as in WOW. And the difference between good gear and bad gear is not as big either.
When you die you will probably always have backup equipment in the bank. Or in the guildbank.
So to answer your first question full loot will increase players ability to enjoy mass pvp battles ALOT.
In other mmorpgs pvp dont mean dick, it dont really matter if you loose or win.
In DF it will matter, so that makes the fighting a lot more intense, epecially if you are wearing your expensive suit of armor.
Another important "feature" of a full loot mmorpg, is the down-time penalty imposed on loosers.
When you die you have to go to the vault, and re-equip yourself before you can go back to the battlefield again.
This makes it possible for a group to take over areas, and control ressources/towns/lvl'ing spots.
Khael[SUN]
SUN - peekayin since pong
Webdeveloper on:
http://www.guildofsun.com
http://www.bloodmonarchy.com
Agreed.
I understand how people get scared by FFA PvP and 100% corpse looting. In the current gaming culture, most MMOs are very gear-driven and gear-dependant. So the idea of someone killing you and lootin you is very frightening to people who don't know any other style of MMO.
But for those of you who've been playing since the early UO days, you know it can be WAY MORE FUN with an FFA PvP and 100% loot system when done right.
- Phos
Agreed.
I understand how people get scared by FFA PvP and 100% corpse looting. In the current gaming culture, most MMOs are very gear-driven and gear-dependant. So the idea of someone killing you and lootin you is very frightening to people who don't know any other style of MMO.
But for those of you who've been playing since the early UO days, you know it can be WAY MORE FUN with an FFA PvP and 100% loot system when done right.
- Phos
UO got rid of the system because it failed. And nobody has done it since.
Agreed.
I understand how people get scared by FFA PvP and 100% corpse looting. In the current gaming culture, most MMOs are very gear-driven and gear-dependant. So the idea of someone killing you and lootin you is very frightening to people who don't know any other style of MMO.
But for those of you who've been playing since the early UO days, you know it can be WAY MORE FUN with an FFA PvP and 100% loot system when done right.
- Phos
UO got rid of the system because it failed. And nobody has done it since.
No they changed it because carebears (I use it even though I hate that term) whined until they did and then they lost a large part of their customer base because of the change. The only thing that tops this in the MMO industry is the SWG NGE. UO was never the same after this change and the population dwindled because of it.
To the OP: You have to lose the WoW generation gear centric view of MMO gaming. Gear will be just gear and will not be as important as it is in most other games. You can actually go out and PvP in the most basic *noob* gear as the higher up gear will only give slight advantages. Your skills and how you use them will be the single most important factor in PvP and not your gear so don't worry about it so much.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
UO did it to cater to the care bears and attract that type of player which worked for some time. Most people agree though that Trammel was the start of the end for UO. It just became a money maker for EA at that point and they started releasing expansions like Samurai Empire or the elves thing. Just brutal.
The fact that DF creators know that they are likely losing a lot of players (yet attracting a fair bit) by doing full loot, is an indication that they care more for a solid and honest gameplay experience as opposed to being focused on making money themselves.
Having to replace gear leads to a better ingame economy, people actually buy weapons off other players. What a crazy idea.
Khael also made the good point of down time b/w deaths also. Killing someone will actually give an advantage that lasts more than a minute or two on the battlefield and opens up a lot of new strategic decisions.
The problem is the MMO mindset that Risk vs. Reward is basically non-existant.
Risk vs. Reward should be a focal theme for all MMOs.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Self-confessed DF fanboy. Finally a real ****ing MMO.
And who will loot you if you using basic gear during siege combat? none. Maybe take your weapon away just for the sake of it. But loot every one clean going to be a full time job.
I will only take stuff I know have some value in crafting or magic uses. Or if I find something better than my own.
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
The fact is that some people are going to lose a lot more than they win. And those people are going to have to spend most of their time farming, and not much time pvping. They will get tired of that and quit the game. Eventually there won't be enough people left to keep the game running. So people who want full loot pvp are really just slitting their own throats.
That is not true at all. They will take all your stuff just to be a jerk. I remember in UO, you couldn't take someones horse, but they always killed it after they killed you just to piss you off.
The fact is that some people are going to lose a lot more than they win. And those people are going to have to spend most of their time farming, and not much time pvping. They will get tired of that and quit the game. Eventually there won't be enough people left to keep the game running. So people who want full loot pvp are really just slitting their own throats.
I doesn't have to be that way. You will encounter enemies and PKers but those who enjoy PvP will most likely fight clan vs. clan. And most guilds will have gear and weapon covered for quick resupplying.
And the basic gear will be cheap if you loose your own.
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
It'll just mean the people who prefer to farm will have to *gasp* work together and rely on one another to ensure their safety. You're right a lot of people will give up and go back to easy mode raids in WoW where if you wipe it's not a big deal, but WoW can keep those players.
DF will offer excitement. People can decide if a more fun atmosphere is worth the risk.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Self-confessed DF fanboy. Finally a real ****ing MMO.
That is not true at all. They will take all your stuff just to be a jerk. I remember in UO, you couldn't take someones horse, but they always killed it after they killed you just to piss you off.
Well if they just lying around your fortress, loot em clean. But as an taktic in war I would have a few runners taking gear from fallen enemies.
But then I don't know how much you can wear. Hopefully we can came up with a good limit during beta.
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
Nope loot it and delete it. Scorched earth all the way.
If you can insta delete items then it will suck. But I have some vague memory that you can break items to get material?
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
Sounds entertaining if it was still 1999. Don't see how anyone with a job or family would enjoy this. Catering too much to the hardcore pvp crowd. Like I have often stated if I wanted to worry about some casaulty of puberty stabbing me I would go back to work at the state prison. I still believe outside of balance issues DAoC had the perfect set up. If you enjoy pvp then the battle should be all you need. Griefersare those who want the other players loot.
The fact is that some people are going to lose a lot more than they win. And those people are going to have to spend most of their time farming, and not much time pvping. They will get tired of that and quit the game. Eventually there won't be enough people left to keep the game running. So people who want full loot pvp are really just slitting their own throats.
Farming so that resources can be sunk into PvP is exactly what EVE is all about, and its one of the most successful MMOs out there - why would a similar philosophy not work in DF?
Every time I read a post saying "Full loot PvP is doomed to fail", i think to myself..... but what about EVE?
People in shadowbane said the same thing. They would run around in gank groups killing noobs all day. Then they would shout " go back to WOW noob!" And gues what, they did go back to WOW, and now SHadowbane doesn't have enough players to survive. It exists as a charity case with no new content being added.
the same think will happen to Darfall, it won't have enough players left to survive.
I want all your loot.
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
The fact is that some people are going to lose a lot more than they win. And those people are going to have to spend most of their time farming, and not much time pvping. They will get tired of that and quit the game. Eventually there won't be enough people left to keep the game running. So people who want full loot pvp are really just slitting their own throats.
I doesn't have to be that way. You will encounter enemies and PKers but those who enjoy PvP will most likely fight clan vs. clan. And most guilds will have gear and weapon covered for quick resupplying.
And the basic gear will be cheap if you loose your own.
Are you kidding me...
Do you even KNOW what human nature is?
By allowing anyone the ability to full loot people. EVERYONE will full loot EVERYONE.
And saying most pvp battles will be by clans is well duhh. But there will be hundreds if not thousands more that find the skills that make it easy to WTFGANK people and run away.
And by not having Factions and FFA pvp anyone that gets pissed of at someone will just follow them around wait for them to attack a mob, once they are at half life WTFGANK them and take their shit.
Yes, it affects players' ability to enjoy PVP battles. After a full loot you need time to get back and that's actually the penalty apart from getting upset.
But the worst thing is when this happens after a lost connection or a lag death. That's the strongest argument of people who did not enjoy this kind of PVP. (ask the guy who lost the titan in EVE. You will not get a polite answer...).
However it's not fair to see someone that you killed after effort come back to battle like if death never happened. Battles in sandbox mmos unlike mmorpgs with PVP Areas affect economy and that's the other side of coin.
You don't need time to replace gear since it was mostly crafted but it was not cheap especially if you were using reagents to cast spells like in UO.
Ultima is what comes to my mind speaking of full loot PVP. It did not work as intented to and after 2 years of battle between Devs and exploiters EQ came. It was 3D, had quests and it had a damn chat channel.
Ultima failed to evolve, balancing pvp was its main effort, but players who prefered other kinds of interactions were not heard until one day population got low and things started to change.
It's too early to talk about darkfall imo, we' ll see if they will manage to pull this off. Untill then we can just hope.
It will depend on how they implement the gear in this game. It was said it wont be gear centric but until people play it, we have not clue.
About the big battles, it will depend on a lot of factors. A possible strategy will be run back naked, find a body (if its a big battle there will be plenty), loot it, equip it, fight, die, repeat the process.
It may be like picking up a sword from the ground in the middle of a battle or not... we will have to see (as I said) how they implement gear crafting, itemization (can anyone really use anything?), how quick you can loot and wear gear, etc.
If looting can be make too quickly, then all people may get full looted during the battle... but if guildies see someone looting all around instead of fighting, they may get a kinda upstep. Of course, they may have a designated looter (after all they may be raiding for that). We will have to wait and see.
I was an old school UO player and continued to play through Trammel for a couple of years. I always liked the idea of full looting, but I always found the way how UO implemented it was flawed and catered towards the exploit / gank crowd.
Full loot rules that just require you to drag an icon from their corpse to your inventory will always have a problem unless there is a timer associated to it. If I kill someone, I shouldn't be able to loot that person in 5 seconds flat and run off before his friends or the local NPC killable guards are called.
What does a real thief do? A thief in real life will take what he can in a very short period and run off leaving the rest behind. You know, rummage through the persons sack for small valuable items, coins, jewelry and possibly their sword or other loose weaponry. A thief wouldn't take the time to unbuckle the victom's armor or unstrap his boots unless the thief was specifically targeting that item.
Why? Because it would take too long and someone would catch up to his arse and beat him down. Same thing should hold true in full loot systems. This would discourage those who pirate from thinking that they can steal everything a player has in under 5-10 seconds. It would also encourage people to be less put off on knowing that even if they are killed, they may not loose everything.
This also works on the other end of the PvP extreme. Large scale battles. In war, it is very common for soldiers to be ordered to loot the dead to help outfit their own ranks. This is why in several of our own world wars, Allied soldiers were supplied with less than ideal guns that tended to backfire and kill friendlies. The fear was that if the soldiers were given decent weaponry it would end up in enemy hands.
So, in a large scale (usually planned) battle, loosing everything you have on you would be expected for the loosing side. But, only because the winning army has the time to camp out in the area for a short 5-10 minutes before moving off.
I think the fact that people can loot everything you have in just a few short seconds is what turns people off from this idea and is just another bonus for players to find exploits to use against other players.
Has DF released specifics on how the full looting works yet?