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Hardcore Gamers are Carebears
Ataaka
Member UncommonPosts: 213
I've been roleplaying since Tradewars. I also have played and own every version of CounterStrike (CS), Quake, Doom, and Utlima. I have also played and tested many, many MMORPGs. (See www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cm)
I have been rated number one on the East Coast for my scores in CS, and have capped characters in too many RP games to list. I am a father, husband, and have worked continously since graduating college. Also, I have four current MMORPG subscriptions and have always tried to pre-order every hyped gamelaunch since Everquest, Asheron's Call and Anarchy Online.
I've been a fan of MMORPG.Com, since the first month they hit the net.
Now that we know a little about my computing history, let me get to the details of this thread.
It seems many players have dubbed themselves as hardcore gamers for one single reason... PvP. Being able to attack and dispatch other players is an option given by developers. This option has been overtly exploited and given too much attention to such a degree that millions of people who prefer not to PvP in an RPG are left floating amoungst the wind of cyberspace, it does not make one a hardcore gamer.
I am not a fan of PvP in RPG. But, I am a fan of PvP in FPS. Having said that, I am also a hardcore gamer for one main and distinct reason... I love to RP, even if it's FPS. A hardcore gamer will go where the action is, no matter if it's FPS or RPG. We logon everyday, once a week, or even once a month. Frequency is of no importance... it's how you play the games.
I am also a carebear, just like so many other players too. There are times when I care to interact with the character in front of me with wonderment, excitement, and even kindnesss. The term carebear has been over-used by people who have no clue what it means or how it originated.
Carebears were those people who enjoyed roleplaying so much, that they didn't care to interact in a deathmatch with other players. Some would even call themselves 'anti-pvp', even though the world they existed upon was fully PvP.
A carebear can immediately identify with the dying medic in the movie, "Saving Pvt. Ryan". Using the same movie, every member of that squad were carebears to some degree, and yet... they came together to defend themselves and to survive the situation at hand. They were not hardcore, as related to let's say The Green Berets... The movie would have been much diffefent.
Hardcore Gamers are players who play the game to such a degree, that they can not only perform most things as intended, but they can also do so by choice.. Playing a game every minute of your life doesnt make you a hardcore gamer, nor does PvPing... it's how you play when you play. Hardcore Gamers are relentless in thier pursuits, even if its nothing more then finding a treasure, conquering a realm, or dispatching monsters or players alike.
Pvp'ers are those who would like nothing better than to conquer other players. They might quest for specific advantages, but isn't the purpose of it all? To kill or be killed is the highlight of the day. A pvp'er takes no prisoner, if given that choice. It is a style of play that many enjoy and is central in FPS games.
Well... I drifted too far from my intent here. So, I'm closing with a small scenario below. I hope you enjoy this thread and my small scenario below. Have fun, enjoy life, and take care of yourself.
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Here's the visual difference between hardcore gamers, Pvp'ers and Carebears.
Hardcore gamers: I got the Necklace of Lost Souls. It took me two hours to get it. Then, some guy tried to gank me on my way back to town.
Pvp'er: Man! I almost ganked this dood at that Necklace place. You should have come with me.
Carebear: Okay guys... We need to cross that uncontested land after the Quest. Be ready for a fight with other players on the way back home.
Ataaka
Comments
I lol'ed at the whole thing. You are just an AMAZING AND TALENTED individual. Typical Douche. Bet you love FPMMO'S. You're not the typical gamer, nope. You're among the crowd that's actually ruining the mmorpg gaming industry today and making it the way it is. I enjoy lots of land, lots of adventure, and LOTS OF PVP. Does that make me a so called carebear? No because everytime I played wow back in the day I would look for people to kill while adventuring. Carebear is a term that is defined differently by each individual. This thread is retardo. =/
There are many different ways to play a true mmo and you can be hardcore at any style, so I have also noticed that many pvp players have attempted to give the impression that pvp play alone makes you hardcore when in fact, having pvp'd so much (KAES 73% killer), I usually get the opposite impression from my opponents, that they are scared, exploiter, hacker, griefer, gankers that run from a true challenge. Basically cowards that prefer preying on the weak or heavily outnumbered. THIS, to me, is not hardcore. Hardcore is breaking up a big group of opponents lying in wait at the zone entrance using strategy, persistence and if necessary, teamwork ( prefer solo pvp myself) or ambushing a group of even to slightly greater lvl PCs solo to take out their healer or crowd control guy and scurrying off if you can't bang with em or fighting the others if your able. That's hardcore, and thats fun, to me. No Fear.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"
(Psalm 94:16)
I love when the self called hardcore PVPs brag about how cool full loot is and at the same time beg for cheap gear in the game.
Think you got it wrong personally.
Hardcore gamers are people that log on everyday or either every other day and love to do EVERY aspect of the games that they play. They get serious about raids when dumb ass people make you wipe and they get pissed in PVP when idiots try to be the hero and they don't work together. Hardcore gamers will pursue all aspects of their current game and many other games until they have done everything.
Carebears on the other hand prefer to log on casually and bitch when these hardcore gamers have superior gear then them because they aren't as serious, they don't have the time to farm, or they don't make the time to farm for their gear. Carebears in paticular like to bitch when they are outplayed in a PvP match because they want to be top dog and kill as many as possible all alone.
Hardcore and Carebears are terms used to describe good players with dedication from just players who are playing to.. well, just play.
*edit*
No I don't think PvP has any difference when it comes to determining the differences between the two. I think that any serious 1st in the world raiders are all hardcore. Carebears should be the term used to describe anyone else who has a lax attitude about the game they are playing and decide to bash the hardcore crowd by saying they have no life and are immature little kids.
WoW for example is being made to tailor to carebears and Blizzard is screwing over all of their hardcore players.. turning everyone who plays it casually and at a less than par dedication into carebears.
"Da bigger da Orc, da stronger da Orc. Da stronger da Orc, da more dat's Orc's da boss. No wonder da Black Orcs is always da bosses!"
- Splinta, a Goblin in the Bloody Sun Boyz tribe
"Hardcore" and "Carebear" are just stupid terms that people use as a shorthand for play types in MMOs. "Hardcore" generally is used to refer to gameplay that is very difficult and unforgiving. It has nothing to do with whether you RP or have emotional attachment to a game. These terms also have no meaning in the context of non-MMO games.
But hey, it's really all just semantics. If it makes you feel better to call yourself "hardcore" because you like to RP, feel free.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I can't say that I agree to this..
To me the term "Carebear" comes from the fact that you wan't everything as easy as possible, the X marks the spot mentality aswell as you would like to get all items or gear that is given to every other player as othervise it's unfair for them. Time is also a big thing in this drama as without time the Carebear will not advance in these games, hence the much shorter level span in many of todays games.
A typycal carebear game is pure PvE with as easy as possible quests and gameplay that can hinder the experience, for instance PvP is a good way to hinder the development of a characther.
And Roleplaying and wanting to be an adventurer has nothing to do with this altou I understand what you are getting at, beiing constantly interuppted questing or reading can be game stopping and break the immersion, but playing a bad guy can be as much "roleplaying as anything"
Ohh well
/junker
So that's why we now also have a hardcore term for those that like PvP and also grief on the players(Carebears) who only wants to continue their adventure in Hello Kitty land.
I don't buy any of that jabber about "hardcore" or "carebear". Thats just people who can't think without attaching a label to everything they come in contact with.
Its all personal preferrence and mood. Sometimes I like to play FPS games, sometimes RTS online matches, sometimes MMO's. Inside MMO's sometimes I like a good PvE game (a very rare type of game) and sometimes I like a good PvP games (even rarer)
Lots of people have different definitions of each.
IMHO, and thats just it...an opinion, "hardcore" are the people that play 10 and 12 hours a day doing the same raids over and over and sacrifices RL for online activities.
Other then that, everyone else games according to whatever their lifestyle will accommodate since none of us here can play games for a living and generally have other things to commit to in RL.
I couldn't agree with the OP more! Hardcore is not something that describes one style but rather an aproach. Scenario; how would you label this?
Oakwynd the Ranger has set out on his epic quest in the early days of the game everquest. His quest is to produce the fabled Trueshot bow. to do this it requires he raises his fletching skill up to master and then of on a quest to gather rare drops from various mobs all over the world of norrath. after a few weeks of hard work he finally complets his quest and produces a gleaming Trueshot bow.
Oakwind goes on a raid ( because hes hardcore! ) and loots a Trueshot bow from a named.
Oakkiller kills a newbie who is 10 levels below him and loots a Trueshot bow.
Myself i belong to the top scenario. But how would you label each type?
Real hardcore PvPers get in there, kill the guy, loot his stuff, and move on. You never really hear from them because they are in the game playing.
Real hardcore carebears impulse purchase a game thats main emphasis is PvP. They know this but think they won't have to interact with another player, get killed, don't want to learn the game mechanics that revolve around the PvP and spend the next 6-8 months on that games forums calling people who are regular player gankers and griefers. They know the game was developed towards PvP and start whining the game is imbalanced and needs to have more emphasis on PvE crap like repeat quests and non-social gameplay. They then proceed to gather a group of other whiners and pound the developers with demands and guilt trips until the game is changed to a more PvE playstyle. This is exactly what happened with Ultima Online. The whiners always get their way.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
LOL this has to be a joke...You claim youre a great father, husband, blah blah blah then go on to say that youre the greatest ever at counter strike and play 4 MMOs??? Yeah right......I dont know anyone who plays 4 MMOs and still has a life (or wife for that matter)....All the things you list would take more than 24 hours a day to achieve......Personally I think youre full of it and a real hardcore gamer would destroy you in any game.
No i think real hardcore pvp'ers only take up challenging kills or take up in meaningfull pvp.
I think too many pvp'ers think they are hardcore just because they enjoy full loot pvp! that has nothing to do with being hardcore at all. all that is, is that someone once labelled full pvp as hardcore and many thought "ye i am hardcore" and so it stuck. The word "hard" to me means something hard to achieve, where as killing lower level to recieve is just the opposite. The onlt hardcore pvp i can think of is "permadeath" Which is difficult to obtain higher levels due to short shelf life. Now give me a full loot pvp with permadeath and ye i would think it worthwhile, anything else is just pvp and nothing more!
Hardcore to me is someone who plays a game to a degree where it almost becomes a second reality to them. These people can be PvEers, PvPers or a combo of the two. PvP alone really doesn't even enter into the definition of a Hardcore Gamer.
Carebear is a term I really don't care for even though I have used it on occasion. To me at least this is nothing more than a put down used by PvPers, Both casual and Hardcore to describe people that don't like to PvP. Carebear is not the polar opposite of Hardcore like people sometimes like to believe as there are just as many if not more Hardcore "Carebears" as there are Hardcore PvPers. The term originated in old school UO to describe people who complained about the PvP mechanics of that game.
Basically to make a long story short Carebear describes someone who has a dislike for PvP and Hardcore describes someone who lives a game to the point where they actually see it as an altered reality of sorts. They are not opposites in any way and shouldn't be used as mutual exclusives to describe gamers.
Edit: A lot of people confuse the terms "casual" and "carebear" and think they mean the same thing. A casual gamer is someone who wants to be able to make progress in a game with less time invested and also doesn't take a game as serious as the hardcore gamer does. Casual is the polar opposite of Hardcore and not Carebear as there are both Casual "Carebears" and Hardcore "Carebears". Also there are Casual PvPers and Hardcore PvPers.
Bren
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Haha this whole thread is full of pure gold. The so called "hardcore gamers" may not be carebears but they are the largest group of whining children I have ever seen. "There is no endgame, sure I made it to cap in 24 hours but the entire game should be built around me!", "X class is op I couldn't solo him while picking my nose and admiring myself in the mirror", "No complete CC the game must be crap, hardcore pvpers only play with CC", and the list goes on forever.
If anything is destroying the MMO genre it is this group of "hardcore" or "elite" gamers. The grouping is so small yet so vocal developers are almost always going to put something in to make them happy. Just turn your head and look at the SWG boards. . .thats your "hardcore" gaming group.
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You wouldn't understand
Not only UO there a plague spreading over the net infected many mmo's:P
Now they also arrive by thousends on darkfall forums making topics asking to make it more save make it more easy, and ultimate idiocy topic is remove full loot:(
But we have to live with this plague if we like it or not, only hope is devs dont bow to there demands.
Devs darkfall already bow a little by intruducing local banks, make capital citys save heavens and alignment system:(
I hope it ends here or i wont play darkfall.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I've only roleplayed one time, (in DAOC). I have also played and own many MMORPG games beginning with Lineage 1/2, and included DAOC, DDO, LotRO, VG, SB, COX, AOC, GW's, and my current game EVE.
I've never been rated number one in any game, heck, I don't rate in the top 10000, (though I have leveled to cap mulitple characters in almost every game I've ever played. ) This is probably due to the fact I'm a father of 3, husband, and have a job that insists I spend 50-60 hours a week on it. (and that I'm older than dirt compared to most I suppose). I pay for between 3-5 subs a month for my son and I to play various games.
I've been a fan of MMORPG.com since I discovered it a few years back and most certainly an active poster on these forums.
Now that you now a little bit of where I'm coming from, let me address the OP of this thread.
I think the definition of 'hardcore gamer' is certainly not found in Websters therefore it means many things to different people.
To me, I define hardcore gamer as anyone who spends a substantial portion of their life playing games, regardless of their play style.
I know myself, I play from 25-35 hours a week, and it involves logging in almost every day, even when I'm on vacation. (I bring a laptop). I can't play many hours a day during the week, but I get in what I can.
Some folks (like my wife) consider me to be a hard core gamer, or even an addict. But I know my play time pales to some other folks, so in my definition , I consider the hardcore gamer to be one who might play 6 or more hours a day, 6/7 days a week.
But again, that's only my definition, yours will probably vary.
Now, there are people who enjoy PVP. Some folks think those willing to risk something (loss of items, money) during pvp vs those who prefer not to as more 'hardcore' than the latter type.
I can't really agree, they are just two different types of PVP. I've certainly met some very hardcore pvp'ers in DAOC and even though the risk vs reward was low, they played the game with a precision and mastery that I would deem hardcore.
I've played with WOW gamers that would put endless hours in on their PVE raiding or arena fighting, and I would consider all those folks hardcore as well.
I recall one guy who leveled up about 20 or more characters to cap in DAOC, including 4 at one time (not using a ganged keyboard btw). Although he rarely RVR'd, he was certainly hardcore.
Heck, I met people in VG who leveled up only their crafting for the most part, 6-8 hours a day, in order to dominate the marketplace. I've seen those same folks in EVE, and trust me, even if they never fire shot (or swing a sword) they are certainly hardcore.
So in the end, hardcore is probably anyone who plays a lot more than you do, or focuses on one aspect of these games to the exclusion of all else.(assuming you don't do the same)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The terms 'carebear' and 'hardcore' in reference to gaming are evolving, just as the gaming community is growing and evolving. Those terms may have meant what you said they do at one time, but that time has passed. And as you may have witnessed first hand in your first person shooter gaming, those who can not evolve and change with the times become obsolete.
Embrace the times and be a part of the ever growing and evolving community. Or sit there grumbling like some old man. I'll let you decide which one is more fun.
It's nice that you try to define these words for us, you should get a job making dictionaries.
Unfortunately, the meaning has changed over time as people simplify the words in an effort to find a throwaway insult. It's become boring to call people 'noobs', so let's insult them with 'carebear' instead.
Ths term carebear has become more negative over time, so now it's just an insult.
Hardcore is used in so many ways it's virtually meaningless as far as I'm concerned.
YOU ARE NOT A LEAGUE FPS PLAYER, DO NOT KID YOURSELF.
If you can send me a shoutcast or a DEMO of you playing in a league match with one of the top teams such as D|S, CK and such then I’ll be the first to say sorry. Until then, you’re a carebare on a pub server.
I have never seen you played on CAL-Invite leagues, CPL or any other competitions.
You’re a pubber like many around, you might be above the adverage but trust me, the #1 league players would wipe the floor with you at CS any day.
As for being hardcore or not… Well seriously, hardcore means you basically do not have a life outside video games, do you really want that?
Scenario 1: Someone who is unemployed with no life outside their virtual world. Sorry I can't compete with this person, since I work and have a family. Respect level for this person low to medium although nice to know them in game since they likely are a good resource. They should spend more time looking for a job.
Scenario 2: I always considered raiders (been one many times) to be the MMO welfare system. They get good gear, not by skill, but by being a team player and being given their items. Respect, is lower than the person in team 1. This is why MMOs are failing. Nothing revolutionary. Raiding is fun for a bit, but does get old. Not much of a test of skill, typically spend 2-6 hours pressing the same couple of buttons over and over again.
Scenario 3: Well if the person 10 levels lower is stupid enough to pvp with such nice gear, they deserve to lose it. Killing someone in a 1 to 1 battle requires the most skill of all these scenarios. Although in MMO's today the people from scenario 1 and 2 typically win in 3 since they have the time to aquire the best loot and higher levels. PVPing in an MMO is not skill based, rather based upon time spent advancing. So really no respect for these guys. Hence the reason real skill based gamers laugh at MMOers.
Not only UO there a plague spreading over the net infected many mmo's:P
Now they also arrive by thousends on darkfall forums making topics asking to make it more save make it more easy, and ultimate idiocy topic is remove full loot:(
But we have to live with this plague if we like it or not, only hope is devs dont bow to there demands.
Devs darkfall already bow a little by intruducing local banks, make capital citys save heavens and alignment system:(
I hope it ends here or i wont play darkfall.
I know, the developers will fear low subscription numbers and make changes to try to make everyone happy. In my opinion if you design a game thats mainly PvP, keep it mainly PvP. Design the game the way you want it, not the way some guy that likes to do fedex quests 99% of time demands on your forums.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Welcome to the Net, you can pretend to be anything you want the best of the best, while most who claim to be top of the bill are prolly nobody's who only lose, but then again maybe not, welcome to the INTERNET:p
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I 90% agree with the original poster. BUT, and man this is a big sexy but, the definitions he is stating are from the 90s. That was what a carebear, casual, and hardcore gamer was back in the 90s.
today, the terms have transformed into something different. People have placed casual and carebear together. Hardcore rarely associates with the goals of the player. It associates more with ridiculous amount of gametime and seriousness of the player towards the game. Players who get angry at defeat in the game, schedule raids and have specific requirements for entering the reaid etc.
carebears have evolved form being people who disliked PvP to people who want to change gameplay mechanics to make things easy for everyone.
Hardcore PvPers used to be people who looked for challenging kills and objectives. Now they are whiners who want rule sets that allow them to grief, they want solo 1 vs 1 play where their class has the higher chance to win.
But wait, there's more. There a new breed of "hardcore" gamers popping up now. these are the "remember the good old days?" old timers. They embrace rulesets that developers would stay far far away from. A good example of these guys are the Ultima Online lovers who swear the good ol' PvP was the only real PvP, yet they fail to realize that this type of PvP only appeals to a tiny percentage of gamers. Basically these guys think that anyone who likes the modern MMO game is a carebear and anyone who liked the old "rough it" days was hardcore. They prefer camping one spot to grind the same mobs for 2 hours. They prefer a humungous open seamless world devoid of life and detail with no maps. They prefer a game with an econmic system so complicated that it would take a full team of economy majors just to put the formula together. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a carebear.
That about covers everything.
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You wouldn't understand
Scenario 1: Someone who is unemployed with no life outside their virtual world. Sorry I can't compete with this person, since I work and have a family. Respect level for this person low to medium although nice to know them in game since they likely are a good resource. They should spend more time looking for a job.
Scenario 2: I always considered raiders (been one many times) to be the MMO welfare system. They get good gear, not by skill, but by being a team player and being given their items. Respect, is lower than the person in team 1. This is why MMOs are failing. Nothing revolutionary. Raiding is fun for a bit, but does get old. Not much of a test of skill, typically spend 2-6 hours pressing the same couple of buttons over and over again.
Scenario 3: Well if the person 10 levels lower is stupid enough to pvp with such nice gear, they deserve to lose it. Killing someone in a 1 to 1 battle requires the most skill of all these scenarios. Although in MMO's today the people from scenario 1 and 2 typically win in 3 since they have the time to aquire the best loot and higher levels. PVPing in an MMO is not skill based, rather based upon time spent advancing. So really no respect for these guys. Hence the reason real skill based gamers laugh at MMOers.
Sorry friend but who are you to judge anyone like that? i only read the first part and from that deemed the rest not worth reading.
Myself i am 35 years old. i have a 12 year old son. i work s a maintenance manager at company in telford where i also manage the warehouse, admittedly it's not a top line job but it's also a decent living. I put in 9 hours a day at work. i play games casually. maybe around 2 - 3 hours a day 2 - 3 times a week maybe more over the weekend. I would class myself as the first scenario. I was also a member of a very high raiding guild in eq but no longer have the time.
Respect for players? equal, i am an adult and as such have respect for all types of gamers, a little more for those who play as they choose and not as a label!
I've been playing games for over 20 years. All genres across all platforms.
To me a hardcore gamer is someone who takes the game more seriously than most. He will look up as much information about his game as possible, read all the faqs, browse the forums for strategy / template ideas and is generally involved with a group off like minded people all striving to make the most of their time in game. On the opposite end of this spectrum would be the casual gamer. Plays an hour or so at most each day and just logs on to enjoy a brief respite from reality. He doesn't have time to research every aspect of the game and his toon's capabilities, he doesn't strive to be among the better players on the server, in short he just plays to have a bit of fun.
A carebear to me is a more casual gamer who doesn't realise the lengths that a hardcore gamer goes to in order to progress within the game. He complains about overpowered and imbalanced templates / classes without bothering to adjust his own or develop strategies to counter it. He whinges about drop rates instead of just knuckling down and farming. He bitches that he got killed in pvp because he hasnt spent as much time mastering his game or farming for items. Unfortunately he's so vocal and whiney that developers hear his cries and because the carebears will allways have strength in numbers, games are being tailored / patched to their wishes.
I respect people who dont want to pvp and most games will cater to their wishes by letting them avoid it. What really fuckin pisses me off are those who dont think pvp should be in any games at all. And lets face it, if carebears had their way there'd be no pvp.
Theres no achievment in killing AI mobs.