I love how the people on these forums think that the founding fathers were demigods of sorts and everything that they said about religion is suddenly valid because it jives with their own personal world view...It's so immature that it's cute.
Isaac Newton was probably the most important scientist to ever live...he was also a staunch Christian...should I start quoting him on Christianity? Of course not...he was a scientist, not a Bible and theology expert...Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, and Lincoln, were all politicians, nearly as crooked as the politicians that we have ni Washington DC today (if you don't believe me then you REALLY need to go back and do your research, you think that political scandal is a new thing?) Why are we taking their thoughts on religion as gospel truth?
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Times have changed. Reason and logic have become commonplace. The dark ages, and the religions that governed them have passed. It is time to move forward, now. It is time for americans to put down their security blanket and move forward out of superstition, into intelligence. TIme to discard religions that teach that one man is superior to another simply because of his preference in sexual partners, or what books he reads. Wasn't it said in the declaration of independance that "all men are created equal"? Religion in government works cross-purposes to this basic tenant that the US was founded on. Enough is enough. Keep your gods in your homes and your churches, and OUT of our government and municipal institutions.
Actually, Reason and logic were commonplace in Rome, they were commonplace at the Founding of our nation, and they are commonplace now. There need not be any divide between Reason and Faith.
"All men are created equal" is a Christian notion.
Times have changed. Reason and logic have become commonplace. The dark ages, and the religions that governed them have passed. It is time to move forward, now. It is time for americans to put down their security blanket and move forward out of superstition, into intelligence. TIme to discard religions that teach that one man is superior to another simply because of his preference in sexual partners, or what books he reads. Wasn't it said in the declaration of independance that "all men are created equal"? Religion in government works cross-purposes to this basic tenant that the US was founded on. Enough is enough. Keep your gods in your homes and your churches, and OUT of our government and municipal institutions.
Actually, Reason and logic were commonplace in Rome, they were commonplace at the Founding of our nation, and they are commonplace now. There need not be any divide between Reason and Faith.
"All men are created equal" is a Christian notion.
Reason and faith are diametrically opposed. Faith inferrs belief in that which seems impossible, while reason denotes belief in that which can be proves.
And this: "All men are created equal" is a Christian notion. ...I mean, you've gotta be fucking kidding, right?
I remember back in 1999, folks kept asking me if I was stockpiling food. I always answered, "No, I'm stockpiling ammo and making a list of people who are stockpiling food"
Times have changed. Reason and logic have become commonplace. The dark ages, and the religions that governed them have passed. It is time to move forward, now. It is time for americans to put down their security blanket and move forward out of superstition, into intelligence. TIme to discard religions that teach that one man is superior to another simply because of his preference in sexual partners, or what books he reads. Wasn't it said in the declaration of independance that "all men are created equal"? Religion in government works cross-purposes to this basic tenant that the US was founded on. Enough is enough. Keep your gods in your homes and your churches, and OUT of our government and municipal institutions.
Actually, Reason and logic were commonplace in Rome, they were commonplace at the Founding of our nation, and they are commonplace now. There need not be any divide between Reason and Faith.
"All men are created equal" is a Christian notion.
Reason and faith are diametrically opposed. Faith inferrs belief in that which seems impossible, while reason denotes belief in that which can be proves.
And this: "All men are created equal" is a Christian notion. ...I mean, you've gotta be fucking kidding, right?
Are you really suggesting that one cannot have faith because of what they have reasoned within their own mind? That's pretty insulting, considering I spent years in the "gifted programs" while a multitude of tests told me that I had a genius level IQ...it was only after years of being agnostic that I decided that the Bible made more sense than anything that I ever learned in school...Why do I have faith? Because logical reasoning pointed me toward it...The idea that reason and faith are mutually exclusive is an Atheist notion, nothing more.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Times have changed. Reason and logic have become commonplace. The dark ages, and the religions that governed them have passed. It is time to move forward, now. It is time for americans to put down their security blanket and move forward out of superstition, into intelligence. TIme to discard religions that teach that one man is superior to another simply because of his preference in sexual partners, or what books he reads. Wasn't it said in the declaration of independance that "all men are created equal"? Religion in government works cross-purposes to this basic tenant that the US was founded on. Enough is enough. Keep your gods in your homes and your churches, and OUT of our government and municipal institutions.
Actually, Reason and logic were commonplace in Rome, they were commonplace at the Founding of our nation, and they are commonplace now. There need not be any divide between Reason and Faith.
"All men are created equal" is a Christian notion.
Yet, written by an atheist.
No, written by a man whose faith developed over time -- who, at that moment in his life, was a Unitarian Universalist.
Times have changed. Reason and logic have become commonplace. The dark ages, and the religions that governed them have passed. It is time to move forward, now. It is time for americans to put down their security blanket and move forward out of superstition, into intelligence. TIme to discard religions that teach that one man is superior to another simply because of his preference in sexual partners, or what books he reads. Wasn't it said in the declaration of independance that "all men are created equal"? Religion in government works cross-purposes to this basic tenant that the US was founded on. Enough is enough. Keep your gods in your homes and your churches, and OUT of our government and municipal institutions.
Actually, Reason and logic were commonplace in Rome, they were commonplace at the Founding of our nation, and they are commonplace now. There need not be any divide between Reason and Faith.
"All men are created equal" is a Christian notion.
Reason and faith are diametrically opposed. Faith inferrs belief in that which seems impossible, while reason denotes belief in that which can be proves.
And this: "All men are created equal" is a Christian notion. ...I mean, you've gotta be fucking kidding, right?
All men are created equal comes from the Apostle Paul. The word faith in the bible is the greek word pistis, which means "to be convinced (as by PROOF); assurance; belief" -- it has nothing to do with what you are saying it is.
One of the relevant paul quotes (there are several that lead this way) is in Acts:
"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation."
This means all men have common ancestry, and Dutch declaration of abjuration took this to mean "all men are created equal," which is where Jefferson evidently took that line from.
This entire movement is an outgrowth of the calvinist interpretation of scripture.
Plus we have the behavior of Christ himself, who treated men, and women, by the way, as equals -- which dovetails with Paul's "there is no male and female in Christ." It was this doctrine which figured in heavily with those religious fanatics, the suffragettes, who first too away our booze in the temperance movement, and then, after they were so successful in that, eventually got women the right to vote.
Personally, I think there needs to be a seperation of church and state because state=power and we all know power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
how many religious leaders leaders molest children? do all? no, but some do. and no, I'm not picking on any one sect of leaders either.
the Holy Roman Empire was a christian based government.
Not everyone can lead. Some can't lead because they can't think well under pressure. some can't lead because they can't handle the responsibility that comes with the power.
no one religion should be in power (to include atheism) because not all humans can handle the responsibility. the moment that I say "He is not better than me" too many will interpret that to mean that I am better than he is. I AM NOT. the world is not black and white but a thousand shades of gray and tooo many people can't see that.
Times have changed. Reason and logic have become commonplace. The dark ages, and the religions that governed them have passed. It is time to move forward, now. It is time for americans to put down their security blanket and move forward out of superstition, into intelligence. TIme to discard religions that teach that one man is superior to another simply because of his preference in sexual partners, or what books he reads. Wasn't it said in the declaration of independance that "all men are created equal"? Religion in government works cross-purposes to this basic tenant that the US was founded on. Enough is enough. Keep your gods in your homes and your churches, and OUT of our government and municipal institutions.
Actually, Reason and logic were commonplace in Rome, they were commonplace at the Founding of our nation, and they are commonplace now. There need not be any divide between Reason and Faith.
"All men are created equal" is a Christian notion.
Yet, written by an atheist.
No, written by a man whose faith developed over time -- who, at that moment in his life, was a Unitarian Universalist.
Must have been the year he died because I'm looking at a letter written to John Adams 3 years prior to his death dismantling everything you just said. I'll trust his words, thanks.
Not sure what you are saying here. Thomas Jefferson did not die the year he wrote the Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson was no athiest. He had doubts and struggle with the divinity of Christ all his life -- he was a fierce defender of religious freedom, and was, as were most of the Founding Fathers, committed to there being no state church as there was in England. There is evidence that he had much hostility to organized religion (as do I), but he was no athiest.
As his life wore on, he actually began attending services more and more, so that shows a growing faith rather than the opposite.
Anyway maybe if you clarify your statement as to what you are talking about, we can go further with this. As it stands you are saying that Jefferson died the year he wrote the Declaration of Independence, which is simply untrue.
/me steps on soap box Personally, I think there needs to be a seperation of church and state because state=power and we all know power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
how many religious leaders leaders molest children? do all? no, but some do. and no, I'm not picking on any one sect of leaders either.
the Holy Roman Empire was a christian based government.
Not everyone can lead. Some can't lead because they can't think well under pressure. some can't lead because they can't handle the responsibility that comes with the power. no one religion should be in power (to include atheism) because not all humans can handle the responsibility. the moment that I say "He is not better than me" too many will interpret that to mean that I am better than he is. I AM NOT. the world is not black and white but a thousand shades of gray and tooo many people can't see that.
/me steps off soap box
The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Emipire.
It was the theater of the 30 Years War which was, after all, fought on at least the pretext of religion. There are towns in Germany that have yet to recover from it, the conflict was so profound.
As I stated earlier, it's one of the reasons why the Founders wanted to step away from state meddling in religious matters, and religious meddling in the affairs of the state.
State enforced atheism is as pernicous as any other state religion. The 1st Amendment establishes just the right balance; not respecting the establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof.
Sorry, Fishermage, but Jefferson adamantly denied the divinity of Jesus, while at the same time respecting Jesus' teachings on how men should respect one another. Which, interestingly, are what all too many "Christians" ignore because they're obesssed with all the supernatural and afterlife baggage that's in the package. The very stuff Jefferson objected to.
John Adams tried to use that as a wedge issue against Jefferson in 1800.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
/me steps on soap box Personally, I think there needs to be a seperation of church and state because state=power and we all know power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
how many religious leaders leaders molest children? do all? no, but some do. and no, I'm not picking on any one sect of leaders either.
the Holy Roman Empire was a christian based government.
Not everyone can lead. Some can't lead because they can't think well under pressure. some can't lead because they can't handle the responsibility that comes with the power. no one religion should be in power (to include atheism) because not all humans can handle the responsibility. the moment that I say "He is not better than me" too many will interpret that to mean that I am better than he is. I AM NOT. the world is not black and white but a thousand shades of gray and tooo many people can't see that.
/me steps off soap box
The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Emipire.
It was the theater of the 30 Years War which was, after all, fought on at least the pretext of religion. There are towns in Germany that have yet to recover from it, the conflict was so profound.
As I stated earlier, it's one of the reasons why the Founders wanted to step away from state meddling in religious matters, and religious meddling in the affairs of the state.
State enforced atheism is as pernicous as any other state religion. The 1st Amendment establishes just the right balance; not respecting the establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof.
Sorry, Fishermage, but Jefferson adamantly denied the divinity of Jesus, while at the same time respecting Jesus' teachings on how men should respect one another. Which, interestingly, are what all too many "Christians" ignore because they're obesssed with all the supernatural and afterlife baggage that's in the package. The very stuff Jefferson objected to.
John Adams tried to use that as a wedge issue against Jefferson in 1800.
I SAID that Jefferson denied the divinity of Jesus, and at the same time respected His teachings, and that he was a Unitarian Universalist (who also usually deny the divinity of Jesus). What are you talking about? I have read at least ten books on Jefferson, including every letter of his I can get my hands on, and have the Jefferson Bible on my desk bookshelf. I don't ignore anything. It seems YOU however ignore what people actualy write.
ahhh... fishermage to quote your words [QUOTE] He had doubts and struggle with the divinity of Christ all his life [/QUOTE] I would not read this to mean that he denied the divinity, just that he struggled with it. many people today struggle with that concept and never deny it. why must things be so black and white? why can't they just be shades of gray? the jews don't deny that Jesus was a prohet, they just don't feel is the the son of God. And how can we all be his children and yet, Jesus is the only one referred to as "the son of God" doesn't being male and someone's child make them that person's son? aren't all male humans the son of God? aren't all female humans the daughter of God?
ahhh... fishermage to quote your words [QUOTE] He had doubts and struggle with the divinity of Christ all his life [/QUOTE] I would not read this to mean that he denied the divinity, just that he struggled with it. many people today struggle with that concept and never deny it. why must things be so black and white? why can't they just be shades of gray? the jews don't deny that Jesus was a prohet, they just don't feel is the the son of God. And how can we all be his children and yet, Jesus is the only one referred to as "the son of God" doesn't being male and someone's child make them that person's son? aren't all male humans the son of God? aren't all female humans the daughter of God?
yeah i wasn't clear enough there; I must confess. In a desire to be poetic I was less clear.
I also said that he was a Unitarian Universalist -- which denies Christ's divinity. I also listed him with Diests, which deny christ's divinity. In a conversation, one must look at everything a person says in context -- not just one part of the conversation if that were all.
Also, I meant struggling with something (again in the greater context of the conversation) meaning: he could not accept it. I certainly could have been more clear but in the context already established I felt like saying things in a slightly richer way, rather than repeat the same terms over and over again.
As to the rest of the stuff you mentioned -- that's a LOOONG discussion -- involving what "Son of Man" meant in messianic writings, not so much 'Son of God," In scripture.
In one sense I feel you are correct; we are all Sons and daughters of the almighty -- and that is clearly said in many ways in Scripture, and by many other religions as well.
However, there seems to be something very special about Jesus, and there are many examples in the gospels, and certainly the letters of Paul, which are in fact the FIRST Christian writings. The gospels come later. But no clearer example is in John, right i the beginning. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Then he goes on to say that it pitched a tent of human flesh and dwelt among us.
I find that's pretty clear. So we have the earliest Christian writings (paul) claim he is divine (uniquely divine, unlike us), then we have the latest gospel CLEARLY stating it. Remember John. if written by John, was Jesus' good friend through life. He also wrote the book of revelation, which probably actually pre-dates his gospel, and THAT clearly portrays Christ as uniquely divine.
Now, careful studies can show similar things, using different terminology, in the rest of the Gospels, in Acts (probably written by Luke) in the Peter letters, in James, in Jude, and in the Letter to the Hebrews (often attributed to paul but I doubt it, because the Greek is of a much better style, I am of the school that attributes it to Prisci, of Prisci and Acquila, a husband and wife team of early evangelists. I think it was unattributed because a woman wrote it, and since the theology is Pauline for the most part, they gave it to paul -- always dissin' the women, the Church is).
Anyway that's just a sketch of what whole books have been written about, and I have read several lol. I find the MORE convincing case from the data is that he was the Unique Son of God, in a different way than we are all "sons of Gods." I feel a somewhat less convincing case can be made for the opposite, although yes, one can pull qotes out of scripture that make it seem such.
If you decide a priori that God COULD NOT walk among us, that Miracles can't happen, and so on and so forth, you will predictably come to a certain conclusion. If you start with 'anything is possible with the Creator of the Universe," and don't pre-judge his actions and set artificial limits on the infinite, I feel the data is pretty clear.
Not many things are tricker than biblical exegesis, though -- I oughtta know, being a heretic and all that
you say that you are a heretic and yet you appear to have done A LOT of research on early christian writings. If you are such a heretic and trying to dispute the early writings of chritians, have you researched any of the muslim/islamic writings? what about Judaeic(sp?) writings? I ask this to find what level of heretic you claim to be. and what about the volumes that King James didn't feel worthy to put into the King James bible?
you say that you are a heretic and yet you appear to have done A LOT of research on early christian writings. If you are such a heretic and trying to dispute the early writings of chritians, have you researched any of the muslim/islamic writings? what about Judaeic(sp?) writings? I ask this to find what level of heretic you claim to be. and what about the volumes that King James didn't feel worthy to put into the King James bible?
yes -- I was raised Jewish, and have read maybe thirty or forty books about Judaism, the Talmud, Qabballah, the rabinnical movement, zionism, and more. I also went to Hebrew School until I was bar mitzvah.
I haveread all of the known apocrypha and all of the known gnostic gospels, including most of even the wackiest, conspiracy theorist stuff, including racist Christian Identity and stuff on "british Israelism," if you know what that is.
I have read about twenty to thirty books on the Koran and Islam, but admittedly have spent more time with Sufism, which is the school of Islam I prefer. Big fan if Irshad Manji and her reformist views, though.
Even though you didn't mention it, I've studied most eastern religions as well, and incorporated what I feel makes the most sense into my world view and spirituality, especially Taoism.
What level of heretic am I? I hold to the divinity of Christ, but my vision of Grace borders on Universalism, which was declared a heresy in around 500AD. Before that it was the majority view of the church fathers, until things started to change around Augustine's time. I am not a pelegian or a complete universalist, but enough to believe you don't have to believe to be resurrected and "saved." That's enough to make me a heretic in the eyes of the Catholics, the Baptists, and most major denominations except Disciples of Christ and evidetly Quakers -- and some of the modern "emergent" Churches.
I see the Church slowly changing in my direction -- Benedict's statement that unbaptised babies do not go to pergetory, but go directly to God was a fine first step, so I am encouraged by the thinking of some modern theology.
the problem with "the battle hymn of the republic", "the star spangled banner", an "america the beautiful" song, is that god can be interpreted any way you like it. For me, god is Lemmy.
I am trying to figure out why there has been such an attack on Palin's religion
Because she wants her interpretations and personal religious views made into law or used to change existing laws that might affect my life.
I think this pretty much sums it up and is the driving reason why the church and the state must be kept apart.
"In God we trust" was forced onto your dollar during the 1950s under Eisenhower, who also changed the pledge of allegiance. The attitude of America changed in reaction to the cold war. The america way of life and the american ideal were both defined during that time and since then if you are not white, Christian, and male you are less of an American.
Your founding fathers needed the support of many people to do what they did. In order to gain that support some ideas were utilized and some things were ignored. They left the door open to you, their children, to make the USA a more perfect union. That's supposed to be what you are: a people united. All of you need to agree on what the state has dominion over and what is yours to decide for yourselves.
A state must be accommodating to it's people - no person should feel disenfranchised from the union. If they feel left out then they are left out - you will have an alien citizen within your state. If enough of the alien citizens feel disenfranchised they will secede from the union or attempt to over throw you and create another union under the same principles that your US was founded on. History will repeat itself.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I think looking back in history we can all see what happens when the church has power in politics.
I personally don't want america to make a mistake like that, plus this country has far to many religious groups to allow one particular group to have a say in politics, if you allow one, you should allow them all imo.
Imo. I believed that church and state shouldn't be working together. The church in times try to mislead people. When the church takes part on the political way of a country, it always intend to end up something chaotic. I'm a Catholic, but lately I had doubts if I should follow what the church ask us to do, coz I have my own free will to choose on what ever I want do. But I still believe in God, but the church, eh?
If my memory serves me right, some countries before espesially countries from Europe had been influenced by Church big time, and If I'm not wrong, they decided to divide the two parties, and never interwined again. But how come it wasn't followed by some countries?
Imo. I believed that church and state shouldn't be working together. The church in times try to mislead people. When the church takes part on the political way of a country, it always intend to end up something chaotic. I'm a Catholic, but lately I had doubts if I should follow what the church ask us to do, coz I have my own free will to choose on what ever I want do. But I still believe in God, but the church, eh? If my memory serves me right, some countries before espesially countries from Europe had been influenced by Church big time, and If I'm not wrong, they decided to divide the two parties, and never interwined again. But how come it wasn't followed by some countries?
What is interesting is that some European countries, in setting themselves free from the Catholoc Church, established state religions of their own -- like the Lutheran Church in Germany and the Church of England. What this led to was essentially a dead church that merely serves the state.
I think America struck the right balance. No establishment of religion; pretty much absolute freedom of worship as long as your religious practices don't violate the genera; law of the land, like polygamy and such.
Now this DOES create WIDE variety of religious experience; so this leads to a lot of strange stuff, at least to the people who do not practce it, Like Sarah Palins' Pentacostalism -- which is as normal as Elvis, really (he was a member if the same denomination), or Obama's racist liberation theology. When they become candidate, we look at the Churches they go to, and wonder: is this person ONE OF THOSE???
It's a good tension, a heath tension, and breeds tolerance, not the opposite. As someone who loves the variety of religious experience in America, I have danced with pagans, sang praise songs with pentacostals, taken communion with episcopalians, practiced ceremonial magick, sat and meditated with Buddhists, enjoyed the female dominated catholic ceremonies of the Akwesasne Mohawk reservation, kissed the Torah and stood for hours during Kol Nidre ceremony (Happy Holidays to my Jewish brethren), prayed with Muslims for peace, clapped my hands and sang for the Lord with Black Baptists, and been bored by Unitarians (j/k LOL).
I've seen a lot of weird, cool things in this world, and all of them were people creating Sacred Space and Time together, sharing the shard of the divine they were given -- each from his own experience. ALL were weird, from a certain point of view.
I love them all; and I think so does El Shaddai (Hebrew for God Almighty, God of all high things, also includes the idea that ALL blessings flow through him to all).
One can not do all this without Liberty, which is one of his major commandments, and the one on our Liberty Bell: Proclaim Liberty throughout the land, unto all inhabitants therof. It is interesting that bell is cracked, and one of man's mission (or Israel's mission specifically) is known as Tikkun Olam, which means, "to heal a cracked/broken world." This is our job to do.
Church and State, each man and woman -- this is what He asks of us. It is His challenge to us. It is what we are here for. It is up to each of us to look inside and see hear our calling and follow that call. No state can tell you what that is. That is why they must be separate.
Before modern times contrary to belief america was a Christian nation. Not a specific denomination of Christianity, but a belief of Judeo/Christian morality and ethics. This was established in a multitude of our early laws.
Ignorance is grown by the pseudo-worship of certain forefathers which were rebels of their time that believed in a secularist state. But as a nation as a whole, the people were predominantly Christian, and so were their political representatives that put their belief into law.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Before modern times contrary to belief america was a Christian nation. Not a specific denomination of Christianity, but a belief of Judeo/Christian morality and ethics. This was established in a multitude of our early laws. Ignorance is grown by the pseudo-worship of certain forefathers which were rebels of their time that believed in a secularist state. But as a nation as a whole, the people were predominantly Christian, and so were their political representatives that put their belief into law.
America as a nation has only existed in modern times, and before modern times it was tribal Pagan.
Do you want to know what made your nation what it is today?
It's kinda funny that a few words here and there can influence so much thought. Even 54 years after that sermon was made and now that the sermon is mostly forgotten many of the people who have posted on this thread have repeated its content without even knowing where the thoughts came from.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Comments
I love how the people on these forums think that the founding fathers were demigods of sorts and everything that they said about religion is suddenly valid because it jives with their own personal world view...It's so immature that it's cute.
Isaac Newton was probably the most important scientist to ever live...he was also a staunch Christian...should I start quoting him on Christianity? Of course not...he was a scientist, not a Bible and theology expert...Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, and Lincoln, were all politicians, nearly as crooked as the politicians that we have ni Washington DC today (if you don't believe me then you REALLY need to go back and do your research, you think that political scandal is a new thing?) Why are we taking their thoughts on religion as gospel truth?
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Actually, Reason and logic were commonplace in Rome, they were commonplace at the Founding of our nation, and they are commonplace now. There need not be any divide between Reason and Faith.
"All men are created equal" is a Christian notion.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Songs and hyms do not constitute founding documents for a government. Thus their lyrics do not constitute proof that America was founded Christian.
If you are not being responded to directly, you are probably on my ignore list.
Actually, Reason and logic were commonplace in Rome, they were commonplace at the Founding of our nation, and they are commonplace now. There need not be any divide between Reason and Faith.
"All men are created equal" is a Christian notion.
Reason and faith are diametrically opposed. Faith inferrs belief in that which seems impossible, while reason denotes belief in that which can be proves.
And this: "All men are created equal" is a Christian notion. ...I mean, you've gotta be fucking kidding, right?
I remember back in 1999, folks kept asking me if I was stockpiling food. I always answered, "No, I'm stockpiling ammo and making a list of people who are stockpiling food"
Actually, Reason and logic were commonplace in Rome, they were commonplace at the Founding of our nation, and they are commonplace now. There need not be any divide between Reason and Faith.
"All men are created equal" is a Christian notion.
Reason and faith are diametrically opposed. Faith inferrs belief in that which seems impossible, while reason denotes belief in that which can be proves.
And this: "All men are created equal" is a Christian notion. ...I mean, you've gotta be fucking kidding, right?
Are you really suggesting that one cannot have faith because of what they have reasoned within their own mind? That's pretty insulting, considering I spent years in the "gifted programs" while a multitude of tests told me that I had a genius level IQ...it was only after years of being agnostic that I decided that the Bible made more sense than anything that I ever learned in school...Why do I have faith? Because logical reasoning pointed me toward it...The idea that reason and faith are mutually exclusive is an Atheist notion, nothing more.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Actually, Reason and logic were commonplace in Rome, they were commonplace at the Founding of our nation, and they are commonplace now. There need not be any divide between Reason and Faith.
"All men are created equal" is a Christian notion.
Yet, written by an atheist.
No, written by a man whose faith developed over time -- who, at that moment in his life, was a Unitarian Universalist.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Actually, Reason and logic were commonplace in Rome, they were commonplace at the Founding of our nation, and they are commonplace now. There need not be any divide between Reason and Faith.
"All men are created equal" is a Christian notion.
Reason and faith are diametrically opposed. Faith inferrs belief in that which seems impossible, while reason denotes belief in that which can be proves.
And this: "All men are created equal" is a Christian notion. ...I mean, you've gotta be fucking kidding, right?
All men are created equal comes from the Apostle Paul. The word faith in the bible is the greek word pistis, which means "to be convinced (as by PROOF); assurance; belief" -- it has nothing to do with what you are saying it is.
fishermage.blogspot.com
One of the relevant paul quotes (there are several that lead this way) is in Acts:
"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation."
This means all men have common ancestry, and Dutch declaration of abjuration took this to mean "all men are created equal," which is where Jefferson evidently took that line from.
This entire movement is an outgrowth of the calvinist interpretation of scripture.
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Plus we have the behavior of Christ himself, who treated men, and women, by the way, as equals -- which dovetails with Paul's "there is no male and female in Christ." It was this doctrine which figured in heavily with those religious fanatics, the suffragettes, who first too away our booze in the temperance movement, and then, after they were so successful in that, eventually got women the right to vote.
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/me steps on soap box
Personally, I think there needs to be a seperation of church and state because state=power and we all know power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
how many religious leaders leaders molest children? do all? no, but some do. and no, I'm not picking on any one sect of leaders either.
the Holy Roman Empire was a christian based government.
Not everyone can lead. Some can't lead because they can't think well under pressure. some can't lead because they can't handle the responsibility that comes with the power.
no one religion should be in power (to include atheism) because not all humans can handle the responsibility. the moment that I say "He is not better than me" too many will interpret that to mean that I am better than he is. I AM NOT. the world is not black and white but a thousand shades of gray and tooo many people can't see that.
/me steps off soap box
Actually, Reason and logic were commonplace in Rome, they were commonplace at the Founding of our nation, and they are commonplace now. There need not be any divide between Reason and Faith.
"All men are created equal" is a Christian notion.
Yet, written by an atheist.
No, written by a man whose faith developed over time -- who, at that moment in his life, was a Unitarian Universalist.
Must have been the year he died because I'm looking at a letter written to John Adams 3 years prior to his death dismantling everything you just said. I'll trust his words, thanks.
Not sure what you are saying here. Thomas Jefferson did not die the year he wrote the Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson was no athiest. He had doubts and struggle with the divinity of Christ all his life -- he was a fierce defender of religious freedom, and was, as were most of the Founding Fathers, committed to there being no state church as there was in England. There is evidence that he had much hostility to organized religion (as do I), but he was no athiest.
As his life wore on, he actually began attending services more and more, so that shows a growing faith rather than the opposite.
Anyway maybe if you clarify your statement as to what you are talking about, we can go further with this. As it stands you are saying that Jefferson died the year he wrote the Declaration of Independence, which is simply untrue.
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The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Emipire.
It was the theater of the 30 Years War which was, after all, fought on at least the pretext of religion. There are towns in Germany that have yet to recover from it, the conflict was so profound.
As I stated earlier, it's one of the reasons why the Founders wanted to step away from state meddling in religious matters, and religious meddling in the affairs of the state.
State enforced atheism is as pernicous as any other state religion. The 1st Amendment establishes just the right balance; not respecting the establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof.
Sorry, Fishermage, but Jefferson adamantly denied the divinity of Jesus, while at the same time respecting Jesus' teachings on how men should respect one another. Which, interestingly, are what all too many "Christians" ignore because they're obesssed with all the supernatural and afterlife baggage that's in the package. The very stuff Jefferson objected to.
John Adams tried to use that as a wedge issue against Jefferson in 1800.
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The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Emipire.
It was the theater of the 30 Years War which was, after all, fought on at least the pretext of religion. There are towns in Germany that have yet to recover from it, the conflict was so profound.
As I stated earlier, it's one of the reasons why the Founders wanted to step away from state meddling in religious matters, and religious meddling in the affairs of the state.
State enforced atheism is as pernicous as any other state religion. The 1st Amendment establishes just the right balance; not respecting the establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof.
Sorry, Fishermage, but Jefferson adamantly denied the divinity of Jesus, while at the same time respecting Jesus' teachings on how men should respect one another. Which, interestingly, are what all too many "Christians" ignore because they're obesssed with all the supernatural and afterlife baggage that's in the package. The very stuff Jefferson objected to.
John Adams tried to use that as a wedge issue against Jefferson in 1800.
I SAID that Jefferson denied the divinity of Jesus, and at the same time respected His teachings, and that he was a Unitarian Universalist (who also usually deny the divinity of Jesus). What are you talking about? I have read at least ten books on Jefferson, including every letter of his I can get my hands on, and have the Jefferson Bible on my desk bookshelf. I don't ignore anything. It seems YOU however ignore what people actualy write.
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ahhh... fishermage to quote your words [QUOTE] He had doubts and struggle with the divinity of Christ all his life [/QUOTE] I would not read this to mean that he denied the divinity, just that he struggled with it. many people today struggle with that concept and never deny it. why must things be so black and white? why can't they just be shades of gray? the jews don't deny that Jesus was a prohet, they just don't feel is the the son of God. And how can we all be his children and yet, Jesus is the only one referred to as "the son of God" doesn't being male and someone's child make them that person's son? aren't all male humans the son of God? aren't all female humans the daughter of God?
yeah i wasn't clear enough there; I must confess. In a desire to be poetic I was less clear.
I also said that he was a Unitarian Universalist -- which denies Christ's divinity. I also listed him with Diests, which deny christ's divinity. In a conversation, one must look at everything a person says in context -- not just one part of the conversation if that were all.
Also, I meant struggling with something (again in the greater context of the conversation) meaning: he could not accept it. I certainly could have been more clear but in the context already established I felt like saying things in a slightly richer way, rather than repeat the same terms over and over again.
As to the rest of the stuff you mentioned -- that's a LOOONG discussion -- involving what "Son of Man" meant in messianic writings, not so much 'Son of God," In scripture.
In one sense I feel you are correct; we are all Sons and daughters of the almighty -- and that is clearly said in many ways in Scripture, and by many other religions as well.
However, there seems to be something very special about Jesus, and there are many examples in the gospels, and certainly the letters of Paul, which are in fact the FIRST Christian writings. The gospels come later. But no clearer example is in John, right i the beginning. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Then he goes on to say that it pitched a tent of human flesh and dwelt among us.
I find that's pretty clear. So we have the earliest Christian writings (paul) claim he is divine (uniquely divine, unlike us), then we have the latest gospel CLEARLY stating it. Remember John. if written by John, was Jesus' good friend through life. He also wrote the book of revelation, which probably actually pre-dates his gospel, and THAT clearly portrays Christ as uniquely divine.
Now, careful studies can show similar things, using different terminology, in the rest of the Gospels, in Acts (probably written by Luke) in the Peter letters, in James, in Jude, and in the Letter to the Hebrews (often attributed to paul but I doubt it, because the Greek is of a much better style, I am of the school that attributes it to Prisci, of Prisci and Acquila, a husband and wife team of early evangelists. I think it was unattributed because a woman wrote it, and since the theology is Pauline for the most part, they gave it to paul -- always dissin' the women, the Church is).
Anyway that's just a sketch of what whole books have been written about, and I have read several lol. I find the MORE convincing case from the data is that he was the Unique Son of God, in a different way than we are all "sons of Gods." I feel a somewhat less convincing case can be made for the opposite, although yes, one can pull qotes out of scripture that make it seem such.
If you decide a priori that God COULD NOT walk among us, that Miracles can't happen, and so on and so forth, you will predictably come to a certain conclusion. If you start with 'anything is possible with the Creator of the Universe," and don't pre-judge his actions and set artificial limits on the infinite, I feel the data is pretty clear.
Not many things are tricker than biblical exegesis, though -- I oughtta know, being a heretic and all that
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you say that you are a heretic and yet you appear to have done A LOT of research on early christian writings. If you are such a heretic and trying to dispute the early writings of chritians, have you researched any of the muslim/islamic writings? what about Judaeic(sp?) writings? I ask this to find what level of heretic you claim to be. and what about the volumes that King James didn't feel worthy to put into the King James bible?
yes -- I was raised Jewish, and have read maybe thirty or forty books about Judaism, the Talmud, Qabballah, the rabinnical movement, zionism, and more. I also went to Hebrew School until I was bar mitzvah.
I haveread all of the known apocrypha and all of the known gnostic gospels, including most of even the wackiest, conspiracy theorist stuff, including racist Christian Identity and stuff on "british Israelism," if you know what that is.
I have read about twenty to thirty books on the Koran and Islam, but admittedly have spent more time with Sufism, which is the school of Islam I prefer. Big fan if Irshad Manji and her reformist views, though.
Even though you didn't mention it, I've studied most eastern religions as well, and incorporated what I feel makes the most sense into my world view and spirituality, especially Taoism.
What level of heretic am I? I hold to the divinity of Christ, but my vision of Grace borders on Universalism, which was declared a heresy in around 500AD. Before that it was the majority view of the church fathers, until things started to change around Augustine's time. I am not a pelegian or a complete universalist, but enough to believe you don't have to believe to be resurrected and "saved." That's enough to make me a heretic in the eyes of the Catholics, the Baptists, and most major denominations except Disciples of Christ and evidetly Quakers -- and some of the modern "emergent" Churches.
I see the Church slowly changing in my direction -- Benedict's statement that unbaptised babies do not go to pergetory, but go directly to God was a fine first step, so I am encouraged by the thinking of some modern theology.
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the problem with "the battle hymn of the republic", "the star spangled banner", an "america the beautiful" song, is that god can be interpreted any way you like it. For me, god is Lemmy.
Because she wants her interpretations and personal religious views made into law or used to change existing laws that might affect my life.
I think this pretty much sums it up and is the driving reason why the church and the state must be kept apart.
"In God we trust" was forced onto your dollar during the 1950s under Eisenhower, who also changed the pledge of allegiance. The attitude of America changed in reaction to the cold war. The america way of life and the american ideal were both defined during that time and since then if you are not white, Christian, and male you are less of an American.
Your founding fathers needed the support of many people to do what they did. In order to gain that support some ideas were utilized and some things were ignored. They left the door open to you, their children, to make the USA a more perfect union. That's supposed to be what you are: a people united. All of you need to agree on what the state has dominion over and what is yours to decide for yourselves.
A state must be accommodating to it's people - no person should feel disenfranchised from the union. If they feel left out then they are left out - you will have an alien citizen within your state. If enough of the alien citizens feel disenfranchised they will secede from the union or attempt to over throw you and create another union under the same principles that your US was founded on. History will repeat itself.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I think looking back in history we can all see what happens when the church has power in politics.
I personally don't want america to make a mistake like that, plus this country has far to many religious groups to allow one particular group to have a say in politics, if you allow one, you should allow them all imo.
Prefer if that didn't happen though.
Imo. I believed that church and state shouldn't be working together. The church in times try to mislead people. When the church takes part on the political way of a country, it always intend to end up something chaotic. I'm a Catholic, but lately I had doubts if I should follow what the church ask us to do, coz I have my own free will to choose on what ever I want do. But I still believe in God, but the church, eh?
If my memory serves me right, some countries before espesially countries from Europe had been influenced by Church big time, and If I'm not wrong, they decided to divide the two parties, and never interwined again. But how come it wasn't followed by some countries?
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What is interesting is that some European countries, in setting themselves free from the Catholoc Church, established state religions of their own -- like the Lutheran Church in Germany and the Church of England. What this led to was essentially a dead church that merely serves the state.
I think America struck the right balance. No establishment of religion; pretty much absolute freedom of worship as long as your religious practices don't violate the genera; law of the land, like polygamy and such.
Now this DOES create WIDE variety of religious experience; so this leads to a lot of strange stuff, at least to the people who do not practce it, Like Sarah Palins' Pentacostalism -- which is as normal as Elvis, really (he was a member if the same denomination), or Obama's racist liberation theology. When they become candidate, we look at the Churches they go to, and wonder: is this person ONE OF THOSE???
It's a good tension, a heath tension, and breeds tolerance, not the opposite. As someone who loves the variety of religious experience in America, I have danced with pagans, sang praise songs with pentacostals, taken communion with episcopalians, practiced ceremonial magick, sat and meditated with Buddhists, enjoyed the female dominated catholic ceremonies of the Akwesasne Mohawk reservation, kissed the Torah and stood for hours during Kol Nidre ceremony (Happy Holidays to my Jewish brethren), prayed with Muslims for peace, clapped my hands and sang for the Lord with Black Baptists, and been bored by Unitarians (j/k LOL).
I've seen a lot of weird, cool things in this world, and all of them were people creating Sacred Space and Time together, sharing the shard of the divine they were given -- each from his own experience. ALL were weird, from a certain point of view.
I love them all; and I think so does El Shaddai (Hebrew for God Almighty, God of all high things, also includes the idea that ALL blessings flow through him to all).
One can not do all this without Liberty, which is one of his major commandments, and the one on our Liberty Bell: Proclaim Liberty throughout the land, unto all inhabitants therof. It is interesting that bell is cracked, and one of man's mission (or Israel's mission specifically) is known as Tikkun Olam, which means, "to heal a cracked/broken world." This is our job to do.
Church and State, each man and woman -- this is what He asks of us. It is His challenge to us. It is what we are here for. It is up to each of us to look inside and see hear our calling and follow that call. No state can tell you what that is. That is why they must be separate.
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read Karl Max, then you could get to the root of religion and politics.
Before modern times contrary to belief america was a Christian nation. Not a specific denomination of Christianity, but a belief of Judeo/Christian morality and ethics. This was established in a multitude of our early laws.
Ignorance is grown by the pseudo-worship of certain forefathers which were rebels of their time that believed in a secularist state. But as a nation as a whole, the people were predominantly Christian, and so were their political representatives that put their belief into law.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
America as a nation has only existed in modern times, and before modern times it was tribal Pagan.
Do you want to know what made your nation what it is today?
http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/docherty.html
It's kinda funny that a few words here and there can influence so much thought. Even 54 years after that sermon was made and now that the sermon is mostly forgotten many of the people who have posted on this thread have repeated its content without even knowing where the thoughts came from.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"