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For those afraid they can "never catch up"
Enkindu
Member Posts: 1,098
In January of this year my wife asked me to quit EvE. It was a reasonable request, the game had started to take up too much time in our busy lives. One valid complaint I've heard about the game is that at higher levels (corp management, station logistics, fleet warfare) the game can become too much like a second job. Mind you this was a second job that was FASCINATING and FUN, but also a job that doesn't pay very well. I realized that I couldn't continue in EvE in the role i had developed for myself with my friends, my corpmates, my alliance. I decided to make a clean break- gave away around 20 billion in assets including 5 capital ships. a ton of POS hardware, BPOs, etc. I transferred my main character and two alts (90 million, 40 million, and 25 million skillpoints) to good friends in the game, and cancelled my accounts.
Fast forward 10 months: I found myself really missing the harsh and intricate ther world of EvE. I looked everywhere for something to take EvE's place... even temporarily. Read a ton of books, trained for a half marathon, spent a lot of quality time with the woman.... checked out Sins of a Solar Empire (good but simplistic), Spore (omg what rubbish!), and a couple other MMOs (always found myself saying "what's the point" after a couple weeks).
I had to face it... I'm a grown man that saw Han Solo flying the Millenium Falcon at age 10 on the big screen and decided I wanted his job. EvE was as close as I was ever going to get to fulfilling my vocational dream of living and working as a starship pilot. To my knowledge there is NOTHING out there as harsh, detailed, involved, rewarding, frustrating, intense and downright fun as EvE. I decided to try another trial account just to drop in on my friends, see how things had changed in 10 months. No biggie... not like I was gonna play for real.
Well, guess what. I went back to EvE as a genuine, broke-ass, no skills-having, all-alone-in-the universe NOOB.... and I'm having as much funas I've ever had in EvE. Yes, I'm bolder than the average new player because I know how things work in the game, but the fundamental greatness of EvE.. that you can go out and do anything you set your mind to.... has not changed. I've met other new folks, developed some great strategies for getting a fledgling corp started, and we are making ISK quite nicely. I used to tell people that a new player in EvE was only slightly handicapped by the tremendous skillpoint advantage held by the game's veterans. Now, having seen the coin from both sides, I know even that is not true. If anything the experience of the noob in the game is even sweeter... there is more freedom, greater rewards and challenges.. the chance to look with fresh eyes at the Universe of EvE. I have promised both myself and my woman that I will not get back to the point where managing a complex virtual world takes up more time than it should.. but boy am I glad to have the chance to drop back in on that universe again.
I think I've finally figured out the line that divides those that hate EvE and those that love it (there doesn't seem to be much middle ground). If you like science fiction, don't need someone to hold your hand and tell you what to do, and if you are the kind of person that looks at a seemingly impossible challenge and get's really excited working out possible solutions, you will love this game. If you are the kind of person who likes to skip to the back of books to see the ending, or the kind of person who wants to be spoon fed and given hints about how to do things.. stay away. If you are the kind of person who gets frustrated and upset at your 1st or 5th or 100th failed attempt to solve a great problem, EvE isn't for you.
Restarting EvE as a noob is like playing on "hardcore" or "insanity" mode. It is is at times unimaginably hard, sometimes apparently impossible... and it is also the most fun I've ever had in the game. If you are on the fence about trying EvE as a noob in a universe of veterans, I can tell you wholeheartedly: step up to the plate if you've got the guts. If you are anything like I am, you won't regret it.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Comments
Yes, the you can "never catch up" myth is one of the biggest frauds commited against mmorpg readers. Anyone who has ever played the game for very long can see the game is far to complex to be broken down in such simple terms.
I often marvel at the fact that many of my most memorable EVE experiences occurred before I ever came near a battleship, flying around an asteroid belt at 3 am with a group of friends, scared to death, in a frigate or a cruiser.
Great post BTW
You can't ever catch up because the skills are time based so I'll never have as many as a veteran of 5 years and it'll take me years to even compete with his skill diversity. All new people ever find themselves doing is becoming a tackler which is boring as hell and you have to wait months and months to even do what you want and if you want capital ships its more like years.
I want to progress at my own pace and not time because I have a life and can't wait around forever, I don't really want to wait around for months for basic skills that I need to be able to play.
I say change it to like a SWG style system where you had 250 skill points and you can only specialise in certains things at any one time.
Very nice read, and that don't happen that much on these forums.
But I have one question. I myself, tried EvE online 5 times in trail. But I always ran to a point in a game, where the only thing I "could" do was mission running, outside the corp opps. But those where only in the evening, and did not last that long.
How do you solove that problem? Or do I have to "hang in"?
I don't find it bothersome to do missions, but one I turn in one, and get excactly the same mission again, Iget pissed and log off. Well, not pissed, but you know what I mean. I find myself thinking, what am I doing this for? When I am a year further, I will be still running missions right?
I can almost relate, i just never gave away my toon
.I did quit a few times with no intentions of coming back but i always do. Nice post 
.
The OP is reasonable and refrains from disdainful remarks, and as someone who really tried to like Eve, I appreciate that. But the implication from most Eve fans who post here, sometimes subtly, sometimes with open hostility, is that most online game players must be stupid, or they would flock to Eve. First of all, I don't think Eve fans really want new people. Secondly, the game IS structured in a way that makes it more difficult for new players, and it really is designed to be brutal. You can't have it both ways. If Eve is better because it's harder to master, not a "wow clone," requires real thought and time investment, doesn't "hold the hands of carebears," then Eve can't also be super-friendly, no problem to get into as a new player, with a helpful community. For the most part, the community doesn't want to help you, they want to exploit and gank you, because that's the ethos of the game.
I'm REALLY into sci-fi, and put a lot of time into learning the mechanics. And I don't object a to a dark mindset per se, within reason. But it never had the elements of sci-fi that I appreciate: imaginative vision; a sense of expansive possibility; exploration of new ways of looking at existence. Instead, it always felt like a corporate job, in fact a transplantation of certain acquisitive, bullying aspects of business culture into a culturally undefined space setting.
I am "wrong" from the point of view of Eve fans, but "right" from the point of view of huge numbers of people who have tried it and left. So look... enjoy it, but don't waste your words trying to convince people that they didn't experience what they experienced, or that two incompatible things can be true at the same time.
if someone takes a toaster, sets it on top of a loaf a bread; then turns the toaster on and wonders why the bread isn't toasting... it is the fault of the toaster?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I think what you're describing as what I tend to describe as Eve being both casual and hardcore at the same time.
It's hardcore because you need to know what the hell you're doing and no amount of SPs will teach you how to actually play well. It's hardcore because you *will* get kicked in the nuts once in a while and you have to be able to just smile and laugh it off, 'cause there's really no other way to deal with it other than just going on. And it's hardcore simply because it doesn't try to be mainstream. I think Eve's trial-to-paid-account conversion ratio is something like 5% - it's not for everyone. Doesn't try to be. Nothing wrong with not liking something that's not designed to have mass appeal. And it's hardcore because the type of corp you end up in really does end up defining your experience in the game.
But it's also casual because the time committment required to actually advance your character (in both skills and ISK) is virtually zip once you do know what you're doing. The game mechanics actually discourage grinding as you can't grind skills and there's plenty of ways to make ISK passivly as well - and this is one of the big 'you either love it or hate it' features of Eve. Personally I love it.
Also, vets don't really have much of an advantage over noobs.
Like me, for instance...
I have 13.5M SPs and a billion and a half ISK in the bank. Sounds like I have a huge advantage over some random month-old noob, right?
Well.. for starters, I don't do missions, I don't rat, and I don't mine anymore. I earn 100% of my income from trading. That 1.5 bil is actually a 150 million a month allowance, which is just about enough to replace all the crap I get blown up flying around in factional warfare.
And out of my 13.5M SPs, I only have about 5M that are useful for combat and if I'm not flying a drone boat that drops to being closer to 3. So basically, if you see me cruising around Black Rise in my Tristan, I'm the rough equivilent of a 2 month old noob.
Even for dedicated combat pilots, they rarely have more than 7-8 million SPs in play at any given time. Unlike traditional level-based games, in Eve having more skills doesn't make you more powerful, it makes you more versitile.
I want to thank you for this very nice read. May you have fun exploring your new EVE my friend.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Great read. I have been on the fence about returning and I just may after reading this. I have never found anything more challenging than EVE and I enjoy the skill based system it has. Good luck in the game!
so, you're devorced now?
Playing EVE Online
(PM me for the EVE 21-day trial program)
It took me 4 trials to finally get into EvE ... that was about 18 months ago.
I will admit there were a few harsh lessons along the way
Things that you wont find written down on any website or in any manual, but that's one of the most attractive features of the game. A game where you can lay intricate traps, double-cross people or be double-crossed yourself. A game where your actions really DO matter, if you annoy people there will be consequences, you might be war-dec'd, bountied or wake up to find a band of mercanaries outside your favourite station.
I rate myself as a fairly decen PvP pilot, but I'm always learning new things, or how to do the things I already knew at a better level.
Great game!
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
hmz, I still have the urge to try it again, would be my fourth trial, never could get in a good corp so always been mining/mission running :-(
Maybe I should try to get in a good merc/pirate/anti-pirate/pvp corp... any suggestions? :-)
*sorry for the hijack*
Playing EVE Online
(PM me for the EVE 21-day trial program)
Good post and read.
Eve is one of those games ill never quit due to enjoyment of my character's skill progression and its a game i can pick up play anytime i want instead of being on some "schedule".
Sometimes i log on do a few missions and make a couple million isk and log off. The community is good and the corps im in is a good one..
I enjoy the game for what it is and the pure sci-fi theme w/o aliens!!
Glad you came back!
Played : WOW, LOTRO, COH/COV, EQ2, SWG, and WAR.
Playing EVE Online and AOC.
Wtg for SW:TOR and WOD
I wanted to correct something in my original post here and give an update: I gave my main character to a good friend in game who already had too many active accounts, and when I finally saw him online he was happy to transfer my old main back to me (trust me, it is bizarre having a conversation with "yourself"). After the transfer I looked at my skillpoints i realized I only had 55 mil as opposed to 90 mil like I originally posted.. chalk it up to early onset Alzheimers or delusions of grandeur.. I know it has no effect on anything but it bothered me having that grossly inflated number out there.
As for being back in Eve, I stand by everything my "born again noob" experience taught me. It is so vast and so complex that there is always a new approach to take, a new way to solve problems, a new way to succeed- and an almost infinite number of ways of defining your own success.
I must make one concession to the "never catch up" crowd that seems to post so often here: No, you will not be able to start in Eve now and grind your way to equal status with the most powerful people in the game in a couple months or a couple years- that's because eve is a single persistent world, and achieving anything there takes time and planning. To expect quick gratification in Eve is silly- it makes me think of a kid still in grade school demanding the right to run for president or demanding to be CEO of a fortune 500 company. There are definite time requirements for skilling up to fly certain ships, create large corps and alliances, participate in advanced industry in science- but the "real" skill to succeed in Eve probably takes just as long or longer, and draws on your interpersonal skills, your problem solving skills, and your ability to innovate.
So back to my example of the grade school kid who wants to be CEO or president: he could scream that life is unfair and march down to Microsoft HQ (or the Whitehouse) and demand to be in charge. This would of course result in psychiatric evaluation and possibly institutionalization. On the other hand, he COULD figure out a way to innovate in industry or inspire and lead people, make a plan, follow that plan, and eventually achieve great success. Eve is like that- the really complex and fascinating parts of the game (for me) take years to understand- and they have a lot more to do with how you apply your own innate intelligence. I see people all the time in game that are years younger than my main that are running huge corps or alliances, have come up with BRILLIANT ideas in industry and science, or who have become incredibly effective combat pilots through REAL experience and skillpoint specialization.
Above and beyond all of this Eve is about the journey, not the destination. I can honestly tell you that taking my month old character into the Eve universe and trying to figure out how to survive and evolve was as much fun as anything I've done in the game. Take this for example: I had no money, crap for skills, no ships, no corp.. and the thought of running missions or mining veld in a velator was not appealing. So I said to myself.. where are there resources in the game that would be easily accessble to a character of my ability? Then I remembered that 0.0 ratters often leave their wrecks and loot untouched because they just want the bounties and high end spawns and loot. Since the velator is a free ship, and your clone is free up to 900k sp (and damn cheap up to a couple million) you can fly pretty fearlessly in 0.0.. I went out and roamed around NPC controlled 0.0 and looted abandoned wrecks. I refined the loot at NPC stations and sold the minerals, and sold a few nicer mods. Yes, my refining efficiency was abysmal. Yes, the buy orders for most minerals at 0.0 stations pay terribly. Yes I got one-shotted in my velator a few times when BS resawned on top of me, and yes I got podded pretty regularly by bemused players (I wish I had a transcript of one convo in local when they realized I had actually fitted a velator with a warp core stabilizer). The point is that I looked at the available options and came up with a way to make a couple hundred million isk while I was still training my learning skills... and it was FUN!
To those of you that tried it and didn't like it, that's cool.. there are a LOT of things I've tried and didn't like. I can see how Eve might seem like watching paint dry if you don't enjoy the process of anaylsis and problem solving... and especially if you can't enjoy the prospect of returns on very long term projects. Also, I've heard people complain about combat in Eve (where's my joystick? It's point and click! The interface sucks! etc.). Well, Eve is not a FPS/ twitch game. The combat in Eve is much more about planning, fitting, using common sense, using good tactics, and understanding your environment than it is about who can hit the "beat down" button faster on the game controller. The reason that combat in eve is so intense is that it MATTERS when you loose.. if you screw up and jump your brand new faction battleship into a dictor gatecamp you might be losing something that took you months of gameplay to afford.. and I don't know whether there is any better measure of "value" in a game like Eve than time invested.. after all, time is money right??
My point here is that even the combat in Eve is going to feel hollow to you if you don't enjoy the satisfaction from long term achievement- you have to enjoy building your fleet and wealth to really enjoy taking it out and putting it on the line. Holy crap, I wrote a lot more than I intended to. Can you tell it's patch day? I guess my point is this: Eve is incredible, and Eve can be incredibly rewarding even for a person starting fresh right now- as long as you love thinking through complex problems, understand delayed gratification, and don't expect to be running a large 0.0 alliance within a few weeks.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I really wanted to trial this game, but the only thing stopping me was all the talk about newbies not being able to catch up and the amount of ganking.
I'm going to make a account and try this game right now!
Thank you for your insightful post..
Matt
Its eve's 24 hour downtime due to its free Xpac being released today.
You're welcome to try it tomorrow.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Thanks metal, I thought i had a firewall problem.
Thanks for sharing that story, you know it's bad when the woman gives you the speach! But hey, they are right after all...
Anyways, personally I havn't played much (14 day trial) but I just made it to cruiser III & aim to get into a battleship. After that, well we will see. Im like the preist, i enjoy support roles.
I think you can be vaible if not as fighter, as any kind of support can be applied (combat, mining) pretty soon. Apparently you will likely start in smaller corps and such folks usually need anyone i think.
I have been considering this game for a while and the extended trial has come at a great time for me. I hope to have an account by tonight.
Thanks for the encourging post.
I compliment the OP on a well writen post that describes the player experience in Eve. However, I have to disagree in the effectiveness of newer players.
While you can get to a certain level of competance in Eve fairly quickly, it's a PvP game that you will never be able to compete with the people who have been playing longer than you.
That doesn't mean you can't do things, but without any sort of caps, you will always be fighting an uphill battle; in terms of combat effectiveness, what ships/equipment is available to you, etc.
Diversity in a game like Eve is very important and makes it the fun that it is. However, that also means that new players have to be complete specialists if they want to have equal footing in whatever niche they have chosen to play in.
While the skill points over time is unique, it is not conducive for a PvP based game.
Obviously a lot of people disagree and I am really glad the game does as well as it does. I think it's well run, and the company is passionate about it. Certainly other MMO developers should take note. Also, it's good to have variety in the MMO marketplace.
However, I have tried the trial four times and each time I came away with the same realization: Every thing I wanted to do would be an uphill battle because the people I would be competing against would have an advantage I could never recoup. No matter how skilled, how clever, or how good I am. That's just something that didn't appeal to me and still doesn't.
Enjoy the game, and cherish the developer. Different strokes and all that.
Im curious if you even play EVE. The reason for this is, you state above, "but without any sort of caps..." which is 100% inaccurate!
The fact is, every skill in EVE is capped at 5 levels. If you have level 5 of a certain skill and 2 million SP and a veteran has 50 million SP, he can still have no more skill levels in that skill than you already have.
Add to that the fact that in order to fly a given ships uses only a small handful of skills, even a fairly young player can have those skills to level 4 or even 5 without too much trouble.
I can't even count the number of times this bogus argument has been raised, I guess some people are just unwilling to deal with the reality. Too bad, really. There is always room for more players in EVE.
Well, I've done it, started a new account and after 30 minutes of training my new char can already fly some ships that my older char cant. Ive got a training plan for this guy, probably do HACs/Recons then push onto Black ops and Carriers.
Naturally of course this character can never compete and will automatically die whenever an older player looks at it... right? Thats what people keep telling me at least.
No I do not play Eve. As I stated in my post, I have tried the trial four times. Each time I wanted to like it very much and each time I came away with the same realization. I am certainly willing to admit that I am wrong, however, my impressions from my limited play time never bore that out.
So my play times, admittedly small, were: 30 days, 14 days, 14 days, 14 days. Yes there are caps on specific skills, however there are a lot of skills and a lot of options that you won't have. Those affect your ability to do lots of things in the game. As enough people have mentioned, this is not just a combat game.
The point that you can't catch up a very valid one. The people that you are competing against have a large advantage in terms of what they can do, in and out of combat. Much of that translates directly into things that affect your ability to sustain a war and fight in it.
I do really admire the developers of Eve. They're doing something different, and doing a good job at it. That's not lip service. However, for me, I do not want to play a PvP game that has no ceiling and time played = skills acquired. I tend to think that a PvP game has to have more of a level playing field.
The coralary to this is that I can't get more effective in a faster manner no matter how much I try. So again, any catching up I am going to do is limited to the logrithmic scale of the skill system.
I can totally see what people like about Eve. Having a sandbox that you run is cool. There are some great advantages to a time based skill system: no grind, freedom to play how you want, etc. However, that doesn't invalidate the fact that you are fighting an uphill battle against players who are older.
If this is not the case, then most of you should support a skill cap... since it doesn't really matter anyway. If new players would be just as effective, then it's obvious that you don't need the skills. Cap them at about 3 months of play time and you're good! Right?
Drama much?
So I take it I am now to believe that this is a serries of arena type 1 v 1 pvp matches? Thadt's all there is too it? Here I thought it was a complex simulation that had a deep economy, exploration, along with combat on a wide scale. Silly me.
Now these are some nice posts Enkindu.
Downloading the trial now