Despite the fact that i was going to anyways, i do not like when a game changes one of it's main mechanics.
When they nerfed missiles, took away bookmarks, introduced T2.....These were changes to the main mechanics. What is going on now is not.
I will say this much, this does affect younger characters (those that don't have learning skills completely trained) much more that others. The longest skill I have trained is 21 days, and there aren't to many of those. For me, and for allot of players this really is a non-issue to some degree.
Despite the fact that i was going to anyways, i do not like when a game changes one of it's main mechanics.
When they nerfed missiles, took away bookmarks, introduced T2.....These were changes to the main mechanics. What is going on now is not.
I will say this much, this does affect younger characters (those that don't have learning skills completely trained) much more that others. The longest skill I have trained is 21 days, and there aren't to many of those. For me, and for allot of players this really is a non-issue to some degree.
I've not played long and i know that skills are a main mechanic to this game. It's like, one of the major ones. I mean, it's the one thing everyone must do is train skills. No matter what you want to do, you have to train skills. That makes it argueably the most important mechanic in this game and they just changed it. You can argue if it's the most important,you can argue if the change is good or bad, but you cannot argue that it is indeed a mechanic of the game and it was, indeed, changed.
EVE - Sharvala FFXI - Shazamalicious Guild Wars - Xavier Lucifer & Charlize the Necro "Ranged...stuck...tree...15 random words... suck... noob fanboy... I MAKE GUIDE!"
Who among us would chastise them for getting rid of ghost training on the grounds that CCP is losing money from it?
I would, because it would be a false justification. If they thought they were losing money on unsubscribed training, they must have thought that by blocking it they would force users to subscribe their 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. chars more of the time, or all of the time. That's not going to happen except in some rare cases. What is happening is that people are consolidating accounts or just letting secondary accounts go permanently expired.
So, if there were an actual loss I might agree, but since any loss is illusory, I don't agree.
BTW, the 4th of my nine accounts expired today. The next one will be on Sep 29. Then two more on Nov 5. Then one on Nov 15. Then the last on Nov 21. Instead of keeping nine accounts active all the time I will cycle through them, having only a couple of them active at one time.
And if you read the follow up post (also posted in this thread) you would have seen them own up to the fact this was done primarily as a money making move to combat a recent upsurge in people who are letting their accounts go inactive while training up long train time skills.
From the interview I get the impression that they noticed an increase in unsubscribed training but failed to notice that the economic meltdown and more locallized problems easily account for an increase in ordinary players letting accounts lapse and trying to get a little training in while they save a few bucks. Nothing CCP has said has indicated that they actually researched the accounts comprising the increase in unsubscribed training. It seems they just noticed the increase and presumed it was something other than ordinary players feeling the pinch of economic problems.
Despite the fact that i was going to anyways, i do not like when a game changes one of it's main mechanics.
When they nerfed missiles, took away bookmarks, introduced T2.....These were changes to the main mechanics. What is going on now is not.
I will say this much, this does affect younger characters (those that don't have learning skills completely trained) much more that others. The longest skill I have trained is 21 days, and there aren't to many of those. For me, and for allot of players this really is a non-issue to some degree.
I've not played long and i know that skills are a main mechanic to this game. It's like, one of the major ones. I mean, it's the one thing everyone must do is train skills. No matter what you want to do, you have to train skills. That makes it argueably the most important mechanic in this game and they just changed it. You can argue if it's the most important,you can argue if the change is good or bad, but you cannot argue that it is indeed a mechanic of the game and it was, indeed, changed.
I guess I was looking at from the standpoint of in game mechanics. Since this change only affects accounts that are inactive, I don't see it as an "in game mechanism". In fact, nothing in game has been changed.
So it's completely reasonable to view the training step as fully bought and paid for when the skill book is submitted for training or the next step clicked to begin training. After that point there is not a single thing CCP's servers do to "advance" the training. There is no training process, just a wait until an out-of-game calendar date and time after you can use the new skill. So there never was an issue of getting any service for free. Now, though, there is additional code added to Eve to prevent you getting what you already bought and paid for, tying it to your account being active. Note that any former unsubbed training gave no benefit whatsoever unless and until you reactivated the account and logged in, at which point the client and server would "discover" that the required waiting period had been satisfied, i.e. the training step had "completed."
A very interesting paragraph here. Something that I completely missed before. One can legally argue that since only a paying customer can initiate a skill training, then that skill has been FULLY paid for till it is completed. Once your training is finished and assuming you havent resubscribed back, you cannot train another skill. Which is fair, you cannot train for something you have not paid for. But, If I paid for my skill to train, I expect it to be completed.
I also agree 100% on the technical implementation. The way Eve trains its skill, it requires no "processing" abilities other then start the training, at which point server saves the start and finish date of the skill. Thats it.
This monkey business that CCP is currently involved in may fire back with a class action sute for the reason of misadvertised (ghost training was advertised as a feature for 5 years) AND for contract breach (I paid for my skill to complete, regardless of the completion date). Im curious how this works out, ive seen much worse cases go to court.
I still think it was a change they were well within there right to make. It may even turn out for the best. As for the other, I stand corrected. I've only played UO and EVE.
Sure, it's within their right and power as owners of the game, just as it's their right to suddenly change all ships to be equal, to nerf all weapons so they can't actually destroy anything, or to remove the Market, or any other game-breaking change. It's also their right to enjoy the consequences, such as loss of paid accounts or, in the extreme, passing into history as another MMOG ruined by its owners.
Believe me, it won't turn out for the best. I'm cutting what I pay CCP by more than half, and to lose the other half all they have to do is continue to stupidly lie, spin, stonewall and refuse to reinstate unsubbed training. I'm cutting back and I personally know others who are cutting back. You can believe such statements made by many in the Eve Forums threadnaught. Its not just emo or drama. It's real.
I still think it was a change they were well within there right to make. It may even turn out for the best. As for the other, I stand corrected. I've only played UO and EVE.
Sure, it's within their right and power as owners of the game, just as it's their right to suddenly change all ships to be equal, to nerf all weapons so they can't actually destroy anything, or to remove the Market, or any other game-breaking change.
If they had done any of these things you might have a point. Changing a feature that only affects discontinued players doesn't quite rise to that level.
I still think it was a change they were well within there right to make. It may even turn out for the best. As for the other, I stand corrected. I've only played UO and EVE.
Sure, it's within their right and power as owners of the game, just as it's their right to suddenly change all ships to be equal, to nerf all weapons so they can't actually destroy anything, or to remove the Market, or any other game-breaking change.
If they had done any of these things you might have a point. Changing a feature that only affects discontinued players doesn't quite rise to that level.
The EMO thing was good tho.
Then you evidently don't understand unsubbed training or how it was used by almost everyone. Your claim that the nerf doesn't rise to the level of a game-breaking change because it only affects discontinued players fails because in Eve, discontinued players were next month's or next week's resubscribers. This change will tend to reduce the frequency of resubscription as well as make some secondary accounts uneconomical. No matter how it's spun, this will result in a lower number of active subscriptions.
I still think it was a change they were well within there right to make. It may even turn out for the best. As for the other, I stand corrected. I've only played UO and EVE.
Sure, it's within their right and power as owners of the game, just as it's their right to suddenly change all ships to be equal, to nerf all weapons so they can't actually destroy anything, or to remove the Market, or any other game-breaking change.
If they had done any of these things you might have a point. Changing a feature that only affects discontinued players doesn't quite rise to that level.
The EMO thing was good tho.
Then you evidently don't understand unsubbed training or how it was used by almost everyone. Your claim that the nerf doesn't rise to the level of a game-breaking change because it only affects discontinued players fails because in Eve, discontinued players were next month's or next week's resubscribers. This change will tend to reduce the frequency of resubscription as well as make some secondary accounts uneconomical. No matter how it's spun, this will result in a lower number of active subscriptions.
Not any more..... LOL ......starting to get it now
The thing is it doesn't only affect discontinued players. The accounts may be unsubbed but they are active and many times there are active players behind and managing them. The most hardcore of EVE's fanbase and the ones CCP makes the most money off of often run 2, 3 or more "alts". I don't know where CCP is going with this because pissing off your most hardcore fans is never a good idea.
Not only that but then there is the issue of "casual" EVE players that go on and off either beteween multiple MMOs or RL and work. Knowing that a 30+ day skill has finished training during your vacation is always a good reason to come back and possibly get re-addicted to EVE.
Then there is the issue of CCP being lying pieces of $#!7. If you want more money just say so. If your having financial issues say so. For the love of God whatever you do NOT treat your fans like children or idiots. I for one am indifferent in the whole Ghost Training issue I am more pissed about CCP being dishonest and adopting this condecending attitude treating us like we are retards or something.
You don't advertize bugs, bugs don't last for 5 years and suddnly need fixing when your stocks hit the crapper and for the love of God you don't spin things so bad they don't even make sense "upsets the balance of the game, and capsuleers who actively put their time and energy into working on their characters". Ubsets ballance? Time and energy working on characters? Now that is an outright lie.
Not only that but then there is the issue of "casual" EVE players that go on and off either beteween multiple MMOs or RL and work. Knowing that a 30+ day skill has finished training during your vacation is always a good reason to come back and possibly get re-addicted to EVE.
Believe me, it doesn't have to be a completion of a 30-day skill to draw one back. Any completion is a joy to receive and a powerful incentive to reactivate the account. All that is gone now.
I can report my first-hand experience with the nerf. I have four expired accounts and feel no urgency to reactivate them. Whatever training had been in progress has stopped. This broke the whole obsessive-compulsive cycle of keeping my chars training as close to 100% of the time as possible. Now I don't care. I haven't even logged in any of my other five chars today to start new training and I haven't even run Evemon to see which ones have completed or are close to completing. The cycle has been broken and I'm no longer compulsive even about my active chars.
And yes, I have known people who have set their alarms to get up in the middle of the night to keep training going. I have even done it a time or two. Viewed objectively, that's nuts. It's also a terribly abusive way for a game to work.
I would not call CCP greedy. I call the bussiness-retarted instead. They always miss the best solution for any problem, being gameplay or billing one and they are very talented at it. 100% inability to listen to player base and 100% inability to look like a serious company.
They still allow GMs to be activily involed in gameplay. No serious company would allow such conflict of interesst to occur but CCP encourages it.
Short version: CCP = Shitty company with a good product
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
Comments
Despite the fact that i was going to anyways, i do not like when a game changes one of it's main mechanics.
When they nerfed missiles, took away bookmarks, introduced T2.....These were changes to the main mechanics. What is going on now is not.
I will say this much, this does affect younger characters (those that don't have learning skills completely trained) much more that others. The longest skill I have trained is 21 days, and there aren't to many of those. For me, and for allot of players this really is a non-issue to some degree.
Despite the fact that i was going to anyways, i do not like when a game changes one of it's main mechanics.
When they nerfed missiles, took away bookmarks, introduced T2.....These were changes to the main mechanics. What is going on now is not.
I will say this much, this does affect younger characters (those that don't have learning skills completely trained) much more that others. The longest skill I have trained is 21 days, and there aren't to many of those. For me, and for allot of players this really is a non-issue to some degree.
I've not played long and i know that skills are a main mechanic to this game. It's like, one of the major ones. I mean, it's the one thing everyone must do is train skills. No matter what you want to do, you have to train skills. That makes it argueably the most important mechanic in this game and they just changed it. You can argue if it's the most important,you can argue if the change is good or bad, but you cannot argue that it is indeed a mechanic of the game and it was, indeed, changed.
EVE - Sharvala
FFXI - Shazamalicious
Guild Wars - Xavier Lucifer & Charlize the Necro
"Ranged...stuck...tree...15 random words... suck... noob fanboy... I MAKE GUIDE!"
Who among us would chastise them for getting rid of ghost training on the grounds that CCP is losing money from it?
I would, because it would be a false justification. If they thought they were losing money on unsubscribed training, they must have thought that by blocking it they would force users to subscribe their 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. chars more of the time, or all of the time. That's not going to happen except in some rare cases. What is happening is that people are consolidating accounts or just letting secondary accounts go permanently expired.
So, if there were an actual loss I might agree, but since any loss is illusory, I don't agree.
BTW, the 4th of my nine accounts expired today. The next one will be on Sep 29. Then two more on Nov 5. Then one on Nov 15. Then the last on Nov 21. Instead of keeping nine accounts active all the time I will cycle through them, having only a couple of them active at one time.
From the interview I get the impression that they noticed an increase in unsubscribed training but failed to notice that the economic meltdown and more locallized problems easily account for an increase in ordinary players letting accounts lapse and trying to get a little training in while they save a few bucks. Nothing CCP has said has indicated that they actually researched the accounts comprising the increase in unsubscribed training. It seems they just noticed the increase and presumed it was something other than ordinary players feeling the pinch of economic problems.
Despite the fact that i was going to anyways, i do not like when a game changes one of it's main mechanics.
When they nerfed missiles, took away bookmarks, introduced T2.....These were changes to the main mechanics. What is going on now is not.
I will say this much, this does affect younger characters (those that don't have learning skills completely trained) much more that others. The longest skill I have trained is 21 days, and there aren't to many of those. For me, and for allot of players this really is a non-issue to some degree.
I've not played long and i know that skills are a main mechanic to this game. It's like, one of the major ones. I mean, it's the one thing everyone must do is train skills. No matter what you want to do, you have to train skills. That makes it argueably the most important mechanic in this game and they just changed it. You can argue if it's the most important,you can argue if the change is good or bad, but you cannot argue that it is indeed a mechanic of the game and it was, indeed, changed.
I guess I was looking at from the standpoint of in game mechanics. Since this change only affects accounts that are inactive, I don't see it as an "in game mechanism". In fact, nothing in game has been changed.
A very interesting paragraph here. Something that I completely missed before. One can legally argue that since only a paying customer can initiate a skill training, then that skill has been FULLY paid for till it is completed. Once your training is finished and assuming you havent resubscribed back, you cannot train another skill. Which is fair, you cannot train for something you have not paid for. But, If I paid for my skill to train, I expect it to be completed.
I also agree 100% on the technical implementation. The way Eve trains its skill, it requires no "processing" abilities other then start the training, at which point server saves the start and finish date of the skill. Thats it.
This monkey business that CCP is currently involved in may fire back with a class action sute for the reason of misadvertised (ghost training was advertised as a feature for 5 years) AND for contract breach (I paid for my skill to complete, regardless of the completion date). Im curious how this works out, ive seen much worse cases go to court.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
<quote>
Yes, just like every other game on the market that makes you pay for every single expansion.
</quote>
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
LOTRO has multiplied its content a few times in just the first year after its launch.
Same is true for DDO.
Sure there are also paid expansions, but the average roughly bimonthly content patch for LOTRO,
generally has nearly as much new content as most of the EVE content patches of a year.
The fact why people love the game is the sandbox principle, the pvp and
its playerdriven economy and empire building.
Content is more or less created by the playerbase itself,
thats why a behavior as that which CCP displayed recently is especially risky for this company.
I couldn't agree more, I still think it was a change they were well within there right to make. It may even turn out for the best.
As for the other, I stand corrected. I've only played UO and EVE.
Sure, it's within their right and power as owners of the game, just as it's their right to suddenly change all ships to be equal, to nerf all weapons so they can't actually destroy anything, or to remove the Market, or any other game-breaking change. It's also their right to enjoy the consequences, such as loss of paid accounts or, in the extreme, passing into history as another MMOG ruined by its owners.
Believe me, it won't turn out for the best. I'm cutting what I pay CCP by more than half, and to lose the other half all they have to do is continue to stupidly lie, spin, stonewall and refuse to reinstate unsubbed training. I'm cutting back and I personally know others who are cutting back. You can believe such statements made by many in the Eve Forums threadnaught. Its not just emo or drama. It's real.
Sure, it's within their right and power as owners of the game, just as it's their right to suddenly change all ships to be equal, to nerf all weapons so they can't actually destroy anything, or to remove the Market, or any other game-breaking change.
If they had done any of these things you might have a point. Changing a feature that only affects discontinued players doesn't quite rise to that level.
The EMO thing was good tho.
Sure, it's within their right and power as owners of the game, just as it's their right to suddenly change all ships to be equal, to nerf all weapons so they can't actually destroy anything, or to remove the Market, or any other game-breaking change.
If they had done any of these things you might have a point. Changing a feature that only affects discontinued players doesn't quite rise to that level.
The EMO thing was good tho.
Then you evidently don't understand unsubbed training or how it was used by almost everyone. Your claim that the nerf doesn't rise to the level of a game-breaking change because it only affects discontinued players fails because in Eve, discontinued players were next month's or next week's resubscribers. This change will tend to reduce the frequency of resubscription as well as make some secondary accounts uneconomical. No matter how it's spun, this will result in a lower number of active subscriptions.
Sure, it's within their right and power as owners of the game, just as it's their right to suddenly change all ships to be equal, to nerf all weapons so they can't actually destroy anything, or to remove the Market, or any other game-breaking change.
If they had done any of these things you might have a point. Changing a feature that only affects discontinued players doesn't quite rise to that level.
The EMO thing was good tho.
Then you evidently don't understand unsubbed training or how it was used by almost everyone. Your claim that the nerf doesn't rise to the level of a game-breaking change because it only affects discontinued players fails because in Eve, discontinued players were next month's or next week's resubscribers. This change will tend to reduce the frequency of resubscription as well as make some secondary accounts uneconomical. No matter how it's spun, this will result in a lower number of active subscriptions.
Not any more..... LOL ......starting to get it now
The thing is it doesn't only affect discontinued players. The accounts may be unsubbed but they are active and many times there are active players behind and managing them. The most hardcore of EVE's fanbase and the ones CCP makes the most money off of often run 2, 3 or more "alts". I don't know where CCP is going with this because pissing off your most hardcore fans is never a good idea.
Not only that but then there is the issue of "casual" EVE players that go on and off either beteween multiple MMOs or RL and work. Knowing that a 30+ day skill has finished training during your vacation is always a good reason to come back and possibly get re-addicted to EVE.
Then there is the issue of CCP being lying pieces of $#!7. If you want more money just say so. If your having financial issues say so. For the love of God whatever you do NOT treat your fans like children or idiots. I for one am indifferent in the whole Ghost Training issue I am more pissed about CCP being dishonest and adopting this condecending attitude treating us like we are retards or something.
You don't advertize bugs, bugs don't last for 5 years and suddnly need fixing when your stocks hit the crapper and for the love of God you don't spin things so bad they don't even make sense "upsets the balance of the game, and capsuleers who actively put their time and energy into working on their characters". Ubsets ballance? Time and energy working on characters? Now that is an outright lie.
Wow. A sane, rational and self-secure poster? I'm shocked. I'm impressed.
Believe me, it doesn't have to be a completion of a 30-day skill to draw one back. Any completion is a joy to receive and a powerful incentive to reactivate the account. All that is gone now.
I can report my first-hand experience with the nerf. I have four expired accounts and feel no urgency to reactivate them. Whatever training had been in progress has stopped. This broke the whole obsessive-compulsive cycle of keeping my chars training as close to 100% of the time as possible. Now I don't care. I haven't even logged in any of my other five chars today to start new training and I haven't even run Evemon to see which ones have completed or are close to completing. The cycle has been broken and I'm no longer compulsive even about my active chars.
And yes, I have known people who have set their alarms to get up in the middle of the night to keep training going. I have even done it a time or two. Viewed objectively, that's nuts. It's also a terribly abusive way for a game to work.
I really would resub to WOW if they'd give me an uber epic when I do so, and I'd do it again in 3 months after my sub has run out yet again.
I would not call CCP greedy. I call the bussiness-retarted instead. They always miss the best solution for any problem, being gameplay or billing one and they are very talented at it. 100% inability to listen to player base and 100% inability to look like a serious company.
They still allow GMs to be activily involed in gameplay. No serious company would allow such conflict of interesst to occur but CCP encourages it.
Short version: CCP = Shitty company with a good product
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.