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War is on the decline, want to know why?
Netzoko
Member Posts: 1,271
Hey Mythic, your game is dying and apparently you don't know why. When you take a successful setup (Like Daoc), then join EA and try to copy WoW you get a bloody mess. I'm going to be concise and tell why this game is declining, and will not be a long term success.
- Failure to create the social aspects of MMOs. (Deep craft systems, social hubs, guild halls and housing, player cities, economy). This game is shallow.
- Too much dumbing down for the inbreds and WoW players. It's alright to make a complex game, most people like that. This game requires NO skill or intellectual thought to succeed in any way. Even WoW's combat is more diverse, complex, and interesting. They tried to make this game playable for 7 year olds instead of making it satisfying for the true MMO players. Another thing is the utter lack of character customization in talent trees. You basically get 3 choices, all of which don't make the slightest difference, and every class has 1 tree that's totally worthless. Oh, you rolled X class? Pick from these 3 choices for your build! <-- that is not character custimization, its dumbed down crap.
- Scenarios. Let's make an RvR game, but put Areana games accessable anywhere, anytime, with tons of rewards! Wait, what? Why would people play RvR? I don't blame them for grinding scenarios, War gave them no choice.
- Poor server planning syndrome. Side effects include massive numbers of empty servers due to poor planning and incompetence. Even on the highest pop servers you walk for hours and never see anyone.
- Far, far too casual. This isn't a hardcore v casual argument, what I mean is simply that you can't really progress in the game enough. The game caters to the FPS crowd in the sense that you hop in and kill shit, nothing more. In result you get a bunch of foaming at the mouth, instant-gradification players refusing to take the time to organize a keep raid, because they'd rather just quickly do a scenario. Mythic, if you make something very easy to do, and another thing hard to do, what do you think the population will choose? The game is overrun by casuals because the game mechanics force it.
- Items, money, and it's lack of effect. Mythic could remove items, gold, vendors, and everything associated and the game would honestly not be much different. Items look the same, and barely alter the character. I suppose this was a poorly planned and implemented way of not letting the gear kings pwn everything. The AH is empty, just like the capital cities. Items are worthless, simple as that. This is once again showing like an FPS game. You don't worry about stuff like items, economy, and money. You get in and kill shit, WAR is just like this. It just isn't the MMO way.
It's obvious that EA wanted a piece of the WoW pie, they made a -somewhat- unique version of WoW, but they don't realize that this saturated MMO market is sick of bullshit. One day EA will realize that they can make tons of money with integirty and quality games instead of regurgitated excrement. Just read these forums, a top notch sandbox MMO would get subs in the millions.
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Comments
I think most MMO's die because they do not offer a "world". WAR is like a theme park or an arena: a linear grindfest.
I never logged into WAR thinking I was logging into a "world"; I always knew I was logging into a shallow game.
New MMO's will have to pay more attention to building a "world" that players want to escape into. This, I believe, is as important as game mechanics.
Read the thread title hoping to hear something we haven't heard 1,000 times already. Failure. Thanks for trying anyway, now return to a forum for a game you like and play.
I agree and disagree.
The RvR and "World" element are missing in WAR at the minute but this is something that can be put right and I guarantee it will be, hopefully sooner rather than later. Progression through levels is also a bit shallow, although no game will be successful at this until they return to the system used in Utlima Online where you could do almost anything if you put the time and the effort into using that skill (thats the best method)
I think WAR does everything else right and i love the combat and will be continuing to play it through all the beautiful updates (hopefully)
What i dont agree with is most people's idea at this site about "sandbox" games, like that is some sort of idea..."make a sandbox game it will be brilliant and millions will subscribe". Thats rubbish, that is not an idea, and will not happen anytime soon. You have to have boundaries to a game, some form of goal and the quicker people realise this and strive for other ways to achieve this the better. I dont want a company to just chuck as many half-baked ideas into a game so someone can "do loads of things"
OP makes some good points
WAR's itemization is complete crap (Samey-boring-bland)
The crafting system is pretty useless as well.
Open World RVR should give better xp and renown
server pops need to be more balanced
still, I'm having fun in WAR and will be playing it for a while.
He's right with the world, scenarios and community. Actually he's spot on. WAR does not reward any community-forming aspects, you can basically log in and kill stuff.
BTW: this makes the community one of the worst on the market. Mainly antisocial teenagers "lol pwned"; compare this community to EvE or LotRO and you'll know what I mean.
M
QFT
10 blah blah...
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
As much as I have enjoyed my time in WAR so far and I want to disagree with you on your points I have to say that you are dead on accurate on most of what you've said here. There's this gnawing feeling in the pit of my stomach that this game so far lacks staying power. I just don't feel immersed in the world and I do feel like the universe here is alive. I can't really put my finger on it but I feel like I'm eating vanilla ice cream every time I log on, and there's no chocolate even offered. I do hate the crafting system and the itemization in the game. I'll probably keep playing for a while because I'm in a good guild and I enjoy getting to know them but I don't see myself sticking with the game for years to come.
For the record I won't be replying to troll/flamer/tard posts, just reporting them (IE, Greg).
I honestly think the biggest problem with ORvR is popluation on the servers. Scenarios and terrible chat system hurt it, yes, but the world is simply too big and there are too many keeps for the tiny amount of players per server. They need merges, and they need them now.
And I don't think its the community's fault at all. Like I said in my post, Mythic laid down mechanics that make scenarios so much easier and rewarding, it isn't really the players fault. It's not the community that made too many servers either, nor is it the community's fault that there are so many damn keeps and battle objectives. The world is huge, there's just not people to make it work, it feels like a ghost town.
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You are somewhat right.
1. There are too many servers. Especially here in EU were around 10 servers have low - low population!
2. Scenarios are too rewarding compaired to everything else in the game (XP and Renown wise).
3. The itemisation in this game is scewed! Thought that AoC had crappy itemisation? Well WAR isn't any better atm. Gear is class bound and yet half the stats are completely useless for your class.
4. Performance in this game is scewed! Thought that AoC had crappy performance? Well WAR isn't any better atm.
I don't think the gaming world is too big at all.
It's just for the simple fact that almost the entire playerbase is hidden inside scenarios all the time.
And when they are not inside a scenario, they are waiting in warcamps for one to pop up.
That is the problem.
The caps on the servers are 2500 - 2500 and yet you still not see anyone. Because of what I described above.
Altho I think they need to improve performance a lot and then merge the servers and rise the cap to 5000 - 5000.
Cheers
I don't think you are really understanding what people mean by a sandbox game. Sandbox have boundries and goals. Its just that the goals are player made not directed by the game design.
The designers are making a world simulation and you decide what you do in it yourself. Maybe it's to craft a large frigate and then use it to sail around exploring, maybe it's to set up a in game crafting business, maybe it's to take down large boss mobs, maybe you want to dominate a certain section of the game map with your guild, maybe you want to run around fighting random people just the hell of it.
The point is that there are plenty of things to do but you decide exactly what it is you want to do and that there are a lot of options.
You do not have a story line given to you by the devs that you follow, for example do this series of quests until you get to max level and then do the following raids, instead there is a world with a lot of interesting activities in it to do with what you want.
There are a lot sandbox games that are very succesful both within and outside of the mmorpg genre. The problem is that designers have not made any good sandbox mmorpgs for long time and instead have opted for the guided story route.
Gregtheexcon spat:
>Just cause you can't score with a chick means no one else can. Loser.
Among other gems. Social butterfly rage in this thread.
A well rounded MMO has the power to invest you in your persona and in a fictional homeland or home base. Players become fond of a town, for instance, through relief at escaping danger by returning to its safety, or by resting there after a good adventure. You can tell developers work hard at this because such places are usually lavished with the game's best atmospherics. They are given a cinematic quality. They are made comforting.
You don't have to be a roleplayer to appreciate this any more than you have to be a fan of spoken word performance to be affected by the narration and dialogue in a game like Homeworld or Portal. They are painstakingly crafted to have an emotional impact on everyday people who are not necessarily otherwise invested in the game world.
Because WAR lacks that element, it is impossible to care about the game world as you will if you spend time in some other MMOs without hostility to the idea of feeling that way. If you don't love a place, you are foolish to defend it. If your enemy's home means nothing to him, defiling it is meaningless. The conflict is pointless.
Caring about the setting of a game isn't a niche interest for the obsessed. Even casual players can spend as much time playing in a week as it takes to read a long novel. If we did that instead would we be silly to care about the setting?
einexile the meek
Vacuos, Winterlong, Vaciante, Eicosapenta
Atlantean, Tyranny, Malton
Performance is another big issue. Even with a top of the line computer you lag on on low settings.
I'm running a Quadcore, nVidia 8800 Ultra, 4GB Ram and I lag on keep sieges. I play Crysis on high, no game in the world lags me except War. Our guild has had like 15 people quit because they couldn't take the lag, even with good computers. But that's what you get for reusing the Daoc engine, which is how old now?
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Thats funny how i was reported for pointing out the flaws in your post. And I get trolling for that? That makes no sense.
I basically stated that half your arguements are player base faults. How people choose to play the game. i.e empty cities and scenario grinders.
The second be comparing the talent trees to wow. They only have 3. WAR has morale and tactis. So how is that trolling? pointing flaws in the post you made about mythic being a failure. This is sad that my previous post was removed because it did dictate all your errors.
Apparently you have some pull here because that post was not a flame nor a troll. Just simply me pointing out the other side of the coin to your answers.
Enjoy : )
WRONG WRONG WRONG
The game is failing because they keep trying to make this horrible mutation of pve and pvp. All they end up doing is screwing them both up.
Your pvp crowd doesn't want to quest and your pve crowd doesn't want to pvp. Sure some people like to do both but no one can make a game that does both successfully. Sure they manged in the past but the market was much smaller then and our expectations were lower. If a UO style game launched today it would fail. Actually I modify that statement, it would fail but only because the devs would try to make it like WOW, not be able to copy what WOW did right, and add in horrible pvp. if they made a straight copy of Uo with updated graphics it would be successful if they understood you are only going to get a niche crowd and budget for that.
Get rid of scenarios, get rid of pve get rid of PQ's and just have wide open RVR. Go package all that other crap into a new game if you want.
Just checked into the game here in EU (Prime Time around now) and guess what?
27 servers have a low - low to low - medium population right now.
That's right ... 27 servers.
The amount of servers with medium - high to high - high population can be counted on one hand.
I'm only touching on the Scenarios point. If the only rewards your looking for are XP and a smidge of Renown then yes playing the same 1 or 2 Scenarios over and over again will do that for you. If your looking for rewards through Tome Unlocks, Large amounts of Renown, Trophies, Gear sets etch you can not get these at all period from Scenarios. You might get a few of the kill unlocks related to the player races and deaths etc but thats it.
Scenarios are only rewarding for those that think everything is at end game and that its all about XP and Ranks (pve levels). The funny part is anyone who only plays Scenarios when they reach T4 will have no idea what to do in the Open RvR Lakes, they'll have no idea how seige weapons work at maximum, they'll probably have a much lower Renown Rank as well since its far harder to keep your Rank and your Renown rank around the same level if all you do is Scenarios. They'll basically end up being a follower to a zerg since they have no clue on how to plan a siege.
Scenarios don't give out nearly as much Renown as large scale battles over Keeps & Objective Points do. They also don't give you RP over time if your in an RvR Lake that your guild has ownership of a keep over.
Thankfully anyone paying attention can stop bitching about Scenario rewards when Patch 1.1 comes through. Instead of 'nerfing' scenarios the devs are 'powering up' the RvR lakes with PQ like Influence, more gear and more XP. I'm sure it wont kill off scenarios but it'll give more people a reason to go to the lakes. Personlly I only enjoy the Scenarios a few at a time ... I dont know how anyone can just keep playing them back to back to back for hours on end without seriously considering shooting themselves. I don't understand why people want to skip the content...the easiest to find content is yea bland but once you start trying to do just the Tome Content or looking for the harder PQ's ... it gets way more interesting.
these points only relate to if al you do is scenarios and you dont' do the lakes or pve content at all before T4.
I agree with everything the OP posted.
The community in WAR is one of the worst of any game ever.
Alot of these issues btw are being addressed in patch 1.1 . while it can't force people to be more social and give you the type of social activity your hoping for many of the other points which are actual real concerns for those that enjoy WAR and are resubbing are being addressed.
Personally I could care less about crafting..there are social hubs but no one really goes there...they added a region chat and guess what..no one really uses it. People bitched about it but it didnt' fix anything to change it. People just like to bitch which is sad. Personally i get all the banter I need in guild and alliance chat (we're allianced with 4 other medium sized guilds).
WAR will be a ghost town by then.
Well this is what kills me, as a guild leader like most guild leaders we have to try and recruit members.
Since launch day I can say I have messaged about 300 people and get this response.
Usually I will send a PM so that I can speak to people I try and recruit on a personal level. I do not spam region chats or yell out that the guild is recruiting, I see non guilded people running around in the level range we need and I will send them a polite tell. It usually looks something like this.
Hi "name", would you happen to be looking for a guild by chance?
I think that is pretty polite and clean cut.
90% of the time this is the response I get.
"Nope" or "Nah, don't really want a guild", "nah, gonna wait to 40 and see what's out there"
Things of this nature.
I shake my head because you would think people would realize that this is a GUILD ORIENTED GAME!!!
Listen even if these people which so far count in the hundreds do not want to join our guild that is fine, but to be so 100% completely close minded to even joining a guild all together blows my mind.
You would think at least 50% of 300 would reply with "What does your guild offer?" or "Tell me more about your guild before I decide"....
Nahhhh none of that sanity you just get a "Nope piss off"
WAR community at it's finest I tell ya.
Ive met some good poeple in a scenario then gone out and done some PQ and open RvR with them but for the most party it does seem to have a "wow feel"
I think that BG err I mean scenario's are catering for the wow pvp mentality - BG did a lot to close down WoW open pvp and scenarios have done a lot to close open RVR, lucky for us mythic didnt want to build a BG simulator and are adding a lot more things to make open RvR more worthwhile.
Once a few more months have passed and we have a good idea of what direction mythic is heading beyond their imediate "fix RvR" patches then we can see if their concepts and game dev has worked or if they are left with an AoC pile of eew.
Its not a very personal level if you just send them a random tell. A personal level would be making friends with them, hanging out and grouping for a while. Chatting being social not some random X tell. I don't suggest anyone to my guild unless I've hung with them even if its for just a few hours or a few days. We also dont' send realm invite messages its tended to net us nothing but trouble.
WAR will be a ghost town by then.
Really? Wow I didnt know a game thats a little over 30 days old could die within an additional 30 or less days!! How Amazing! ... rofl god the patches and fixes and changes come in hot and heavy and people still frigging cry lol. Stupidity amazes me everyday.
The tell is to initiate conversation.
I do not accept people off a "sure" response. If I get a "sure" response I always reply with a "shouldn't I tell you more about the guild first"
I almost always have to explain our guild because it isn't a typical take everyone guild. It is a racial guild for dwarves only.
The other 10% from that 100% I mentioned earlier will usually ask "Sure, but could you tell me more about your guild."
This opens up the conversation phase and allows me to get to know them, maybe not how well they can play but at least the type of person they are. I am a very good judge of character. I can tell based off someone's first 2 responses if they are 12 or 23. I can tell if they are mature or kiddish. If they reply like some 12 year old pnwzor gangsta, I let them know they are not what we are looking for.
If the conversation seems to go well off the first few responses, and they like everything I have to say about the guild. Then I send them the invite. Which leads to phase 2 of hopping on vent and getting know everyone. So far everyone who has made it to Ventrilo stage has been well recieved and liked.
The point to my thread is there are way to many solo heroes in WAR right now. Wanting to go at the keep lord alone, they do not need help to take down the hero ++ they got it you just sit back and watch.
Well this just isn't how war was intended to be played. The community needs to come together and start playing as a faction or realm.
In DAoC that is what set it apart from all the others. Realm loyalty, we always loved to see and play with our fellow realmers and loved to play with the guilds around us. WAR has none of that at the moment. It is hurting the game very much.
I have to agree.
I had someone send me a pm and ask why I wasn't in a guild and what I was looking for in a guild.
I told him (assuming it was a "him") that I was waiting to see what was out there as far as guilds as it was a very important move.
His response was "it's not like a life bonding contract". At which time my response was "I come from Lineage 2 and in that game your guild mates are your life blood, the people who have your back, the people who will rush across the world in case you drop your equipment".
and his response was "this isn't Lineage 2".
Well that might be but to some people, a guild is more than a chat room. I know it is for me. Same thing in my LOTRO kinship. I once helped a lower lvl player on a quest and they thanked me. I then responded "that's why I'm here" and his response was "well, not really".
No... REALLY.
I think it is perfectly acceptable to just join any old guild and use it as a chat room. But for some people (myself included) I need more than a pm to get to know me. I want to have seen you and yours around, partied with you, fought with you, before I join any guilds.
So it's great that he pm's' people and speaks with them but he shouldn't feel insulted that people might not respond as he would like.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo