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How should Jedi/Sith be handled in this game?
Tiller
Member LegendaryPosts: 11,485
Should they be alpha powerful at close range only (def and off)? Balanced with all other classes at close range weaker as a ranged class (off)? Or just the same as each other class in the game at any range? Should more powerful Jedi abilities be unlockable?
And seriously those who say Jedi shouldn't be in this game need to relax, it's Star Wars. That's like saying Wizards shouldn’t be in a Dungeon & Dragons game because you don’t like playing or seeing wizards.
SWG Bloodfin vet
Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
Comments
Putting in Jedi as a playable class may bring up balancing issues. I would put them in as possible bosses or elite mobs. That is just my opinion. Not taken out of the game, just non playable by people.
you put them in and make them equal to all the other classes.
Id love to play a Jedi or Sith but they should be balanced around other classes. Just because they are more powerful in the universe doesnt mean that in a game they should be allowed to dominate. It would make playing any other class useless.
You win the thread.
You win the thread indeed.
How can jedi/sith ever be equal to anyone else?
That would just not make any sense.
My suggestion is this: make them unlockable elite classes.
When you hit max level with your regular avatar you can do a chain of difficult quests to unlock the jedi/sith classes.
This would make most people happy, those who wants to be a jedi/sith and those who doesn't want to see the servers overrun by them.
How can jedi/sith ever be equal to anyone else?
That would just not make any sense.
My suggestion is this: make them unlockable elite classes.
When you hit max level with your regular avatar you can do a chain of difficult quests to unlock the jedi/sith classes.
This would make most people happy, those who wants to be a jedi/sith and those who doesn't want to see the servers overrun by them.
The Return of the Hologrind. Revenge of the Village of force-sensitive Aurilians. Bloody damned good idea.
/sarcasm off
{ Mod Delete }
(I have posted this elsewhere. I thought I would share some ideas)......
Description of Jedi Class form wookiepedia....
Training Main article: Jedi training
Padawans would typically go on missions with their Jedi Masters to learn from experience; here Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and his Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi on a mission to Naboo.Almost all youthful Jedi were initially called Younglings and instructed in "clans" by a venerable, experienced Jedi Master, learning the ways of the Jedi and the powers of the Force. After Ruusan it had become normal that the [Jedi trainees were always children]. Once Yavin 4 had been established as Jedi headquarters, the Jedi initiates, which were no longer children, were trained first under the direction of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, and, in time, under another Master's direction in groups. When the New Jedi Order began, the Younglings were again trained in clans from childhood.When an individual student achieved satisfactory understanding of the Jedi way, they were usually taken under the wing of another Jedi member and instructed individually to complete their training. Masters typically brought their Padawans along on missions, and later sent them on missions of their own, to allow them to gain experience and learn from practice."
With that said this sounds like Jedi/Sith should be a starting job. If becoming a Jedi was purely based on training from a young age, then why would anyone suggest that it would be a unlockable job? Based on the portion that was quoted, it would suggest that a Jedi should be a starting class. Not one that you could work into. I would say that Kyle Katarn would be an exception to the rule but again it is an EXCEPTION versus the rule. In this case if we were to suggest that Bioware would have to make it a unlockable job then we are definitely making the job an EXCEPTION and not the rule. If this is to curb the amount of people of playing Jedi then have to be other ways.
Such as nerfing the class until you get to level 30, Simple abilities can not be unlocked at low levels. Jedi have been known to have a low armor class, that could be an area to expose. There is other ways to do this and the ones that I have stated were examples not the solution.....Making parity will be a creative task for Bioware & a must! But simply making it something that you have to unlock is attempting to not only work harder at trying to obtain the job, but it seems that if you put more time in than the other guy/gal, then you should be rewarded....... That sounds LAME!
If you are going to play the game to be a Jedi you should start that way. This isnt SWG where they are going to make it an obtainable job after you have Mastered 4 professions. People do have lives outside of Video games! This should be an escape from the real world, when you can escape you should be able to enjoy your Jedi/Sith, not loath the idea that you have to Master 4 professions then you can be a Jedi.
My point..... There is simply other ways to making parity in the game and the 4 profession mastery idea will not do it! This is why I am excited about Bioware making this game. They are well aware of SWG's issues and what has been a dismal game since that change. People were dissappointed that they worked so hard to get to Jedi/Sith, while others either could not simply put that much time into get to Jedi/Sith or the latter..... Simply put and maybe harder to do, creating this parity for the Jedi/Sith class to allow other Characters/Classes to be able to inter mingle will be a big task for Bioware and will have to be pursued with a lot of diligence and objective thinking. Something that I believe Bioware has the ability to do and implement.
I played FF for 4 years and ended up loving this game obviously. It had its own problems... Grouping and the particular grind was outrageous. This method would be the only other way that I would accept the unlocking of the Class Jedi/Sith otherwise if you are attempting to do the Virtual Grind to simply prevent other people from playing it? Either it was not well thought out.... Or the other Classes in the game werent interesting enough for you play ....
But for example, Samurai was an unlockable job. You could only get the advance jobs if you reached level 30 (did not matter what job it was, as long as it was level 30) and did the Samurai quest in order to achieve the status of Samurai. You would need assistance to do the Quest but it was an experience that I was able to share with some of my friends that played FF and were willing to help.
I believe this would work for what you are looking for. Although, since Jedi is a integral part of the story of Star Wars it would be hard to suggest that it cannot be a "starting class". Although, i think it should be, the method I stated above would work for me. But I do believe if there is no other way for Bioware to apply this to there MMO, then this method should work. The endless 4 mastery grind will not help anyone that would really like to get immersed in this game!
How can jedi/sith ever be equal to anyone else?
That would just not make any sense.
My suggestion is this: make them unlockable elite classes.
When you hit max level with your regular avatar you can do a chain of difficult quests to unlock the jedi/sith classes.
This would make most people happy, those who wants to be a jedi/sith and those who doesn't want to see the servers overrun by them.
How do you make them equal? You design the game to make them so. They are not all powerful. Being the big fan of SW you must remember a scene in EP1 where young Anakin said "Nobody can kill a jedi". Do you remember the reply to that? That is all the lore proof you need.
What about the Jefi purge with order 66? Lowly stormtroopers kill most of them. And then the are bounty hunters, cyborg generals. Yup, jedi certainly can't be killed.
If you want to make it oblige with lore, make Jedi and Sith starting classes, but make them take a lot longer to level up(I'll just assume the game is going to be a shallow level/class based game). Make them take 50% more experience to level, but make them slightly more powerful than the average class. Also, make a viable alternative, such as mandalorian or something of that nature that rivals the power of a force user.
I would personally rather see them as an unlockable class simply because I don't want to see a million globats everywhere I go in game.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
How can jedi/sith ever be equal to anyone else?
That would just not make any sense.
My suggestion is this: make them unlockable elite classes.
When you hit max level with your regular avatar you can do a chain of difficult quests to unlock the jedi/sith classes.
This would make most people happy, those who wants to be a jedi/sith and those who doesn't want to see the servers overrun by them.
How do you make them equal? You design the game to make them so. They are not all powerful. Being the big fan of SW you must remember a scene in EP1 where young Anakin said "Nobody can kill a jedi". Do you remember the reply to that? That is all the lore proof you need.
What about the Jefi purge with order 66? Lowly stormtroopers kill most of them. And then the are bounty hunters, cyborg generals. Yup, jedi certainly can't be killed.
I -love- when people use selective lore. If nobody can kill a Jedi, how did almost all of them die by EP4?
I could be wrong, but wasn't the Jedi population also decimated during the KOTOR series? I know it is 300 years later, so they have time to rebuild, but it isn't like they have a flurishing population.
ALSO (to go with my first point): there were only a handful of extremely powerful Jedi....the true heroes. Since this game caters to the ideals of "everyone is a hero", I would expect lore to be thrown out the window.
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
I think all the players has to develop as a Sith/Jedi (Kotor-like), the classes have to be the same of the first 2 chapters (guardian, sentinel and consular - then elite classes, Jedi Master/Sith Lord, Jedy Watchman/Sith Assassin, Jedi Weapon Master/ Sith Marauder). All other non jedi/Sith classes should be NPCs.
How can jedi/sith ever be equal to anyone else?
That would just not make any sense.
My suggestion is this: make them unlockable elite classes.
When you hit max level with your regular avatar you can do a chain of difficult quests to unlock the jedi/sith classes.
This would make most people happy, those who wants to be a jedi/sith and those who doesn't want to see the servers overrun by them.
How do you make them equal? You design the game to make them so. They are not all powerful. Being the big fan of SW you must remember a scene in EP1 where young Anakin said "Nobody can kill a jedi". Do you remember the reply to that? That is all the lore proof you need.
What about the Jefi purge with order 66? Lowly stormtroopers kill most of them. And then the are bounty hunters, cyborg generals. Yup, jedi certainly can't be killed.
I -love- when people use selective lore. If nobody can kill a Jedi, how did almost all of them die by EP4?
I could be wrong, but wasn't the Jedi population also decimated during the KOTOR series? I know it is 300 years later, so they have time to rebuild, but it isn't like they have a flurishing population.
ALSO (to go with my first point): there were only a handful of extremely powerful Jedi....the true heroes. Since this game caters to the ideals of "everyone is a hero", I would expect lore to be thrown out the window.
I -love- when people use selective hearing or in your case selective reading.
Did I ever type that Jedi's can't be killed?!
Is Han Solo the smuggler and starship pilot on par with Darth Vader?
Defenitely not because Darth Vader is an evil Jedi known as a Sith that can kick the crap out of Mr. Solo with both hands tied behind his back.
Why don't we throw you out the window instead and be done with it?
How can jedi/sith ever be equal to anyone else?
That would just not make any sense.
My suggestion is this: make them unlockable elite classes.
When you hit max level with your regular avatar you can do a chain of difficult quests to unlock the jedi/sith classes.
This would make most people happy, those who wants to be a jedi/sith and those who doesn't want to see the servers overrun by them.
totally agree, only a moron would say that fixing the balancing issues by just balancing out the classes would correct the initial population balance. We ALL know most people that are interested in a star wars game want to use a lightsaber....
This is just another reason why I wont be playing this game sadly
(, it caters to the "I wanna be a hero" type players. No thx Bioware
How can jedi/sith ever be equal to anyone else?
That would just not make any sense.
My suggestion is this: make them unlockable elite classes.
When you hit max level with your regular avatar you can do a chain of difficult quests to unlock the jedi/sith classes.
This would make most people happy, those who wants to be a jedi/sith and those who doesn't want to see the servers overrun by them.
How do you make them equal? You design the game to make them so. They are not all powerful. Being the big fan of SW you must remember a scene in EP1 where young Anakin said "Nobody can kill a jedi". Do you remember the reply to that? That is all the lore proof you need.
What about the Jefi purge with order 66? Lowly stormtroopers kill most of them. And then the are bounty hunters, cyborg generals. Yup, jedi certainly can't be killed.
I -love- when people use selective lore. If nobody can kill a Jedi, how did almost all of them die by EP4?
I could be wrong, but wasn't the Jedi population also decimated during the KOTOR series? I know it is 300 years later, so they have time to rebuild, but it isn't like they have a flurishing population.
ALSO (to go with my first point): there were only a handful of extremely powerful Jedi....the true heroes. Since this game caters to the ideals of "everyone is a hero", I would expect lore to be thrown out the window.
I -love- when people use selective hearing or in your case selective reading.
Did I ever type that Jedi's can't be killed?!
Is Han Solo the smuggler and starship pilot on par with Darth Vader?
Defenitely not because Darth Vader is an evil Jedi known as a Sith that can kick the crap out of Mr. Solo with both hands tied behind his back.
Why don't we throw you out the window instead and be done with it?
lol, I didn't mean to quote you, but the person you quoted...my bad...
Anyway, it is pretty clear that the people who are very much into this game don't really want to play an MMO, just KOTOR or a Jedi WoW-arena... Immersion is what makes MMOs. You can't just make everyone a hero because they haven't done anything heroic, so the game turns into a giant participation award.
And throw me out the window? I can't even fathom why you used that expression. Why should I be thrown out when I want this to be a good MMO, unlike most of the people in the section who just want a light-saber styled e-peen?
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Not enough info to pass judgement on how jedi/sith or anyother class should be handled. Best bet is to wait and see.
The combat of the jedi/sith is what scare's me that could go wrong.I dont want it to be too cheesy,boring and repetitive.I hope its good.I really am looking forward to this game,I really am!
How can jedi/sith ever be equal to anyone else?
That would just not make any sense.
My suggestion is this: make them unlockable elite classes.
When you hit max level with your regular avatar you can do a chain of difficult quests to unlock the jedi/sith classes.
This would make most people happy, those who wants to be a jedi/sith and those who doesn't want to see the servers overrun by them.
How do you make them equal? You design the game to make them so. They are not all powerful. Being the big fan of SW you must remember a scene in EP1 where young Anakin said "Nobody can kill a jedi". Do you remember the reply to that? That is all the lore proof you need.
What about the Jefi purge with order 66? Lowly stormtroopers kill most of them. And then the are bounty hunters, cyborg generals. Yup, jedi certainly can't be killed.
I -love- when people use selective lore. If nobody can kill a Jedi, how did almost all of them die by EP4?
I could be wrong, but wasn't the Jedi population also decimated during the KOTOR series? I know it is 300 years later, so they have time to rebuild, but it isn't like they have a flurishing population.
ALSO (to go with my first point): there were only a handful of extremely powerful Jedi....the true heroes. Since this game caters to the ideals of "everyone is a hero", I would expect lore to be thrown out the window.
I -love- when people use selective hearing or in your case selective reading.
Did I ever type that Jedi's can't be killed?!
Is Han Solo the smuggler and starship pilot on par with Darth Vader?
Defenitely not because Darth Vader is an evil Jedi known as a Sith that can kick the crap out of Mr. Solo with both hands tied behind his back.
Why don't we throw you out the window instead and be done with it?
lol, I didn't mean to quote you, but the person you quoted...my bad...
Anyway, it is pretty clear that the people who are very much into this game don't really want to play an MMO, just KOTOR or a Jedi WoW-arena... Immersion is what makes MMOs. You can't just make everyone a hero because they haven't done anything heroic, so the game turns into a giant participation award.
And throw me out the window? I can't even fathom why you used that expression. Why should I be thrown out when I want this to be a good MMO, unlike most of the people in the section who just want a light-saber styled e-peen?
Ah, sorry.
It's just that I see so much negativity already about this game and that makes me a bit peeved off.
i can tell you one thing, im not playing Hairdressers of the old republic! Of course jedi are going to be a starting class, not every jedi is gonna be a darth vader or yoda!
How can jedi/sith ever be equal to anyone else?
That would just not make any sense.
My suggestion is this: make them unlockable elite classes.
When you hit max level with your regular avatar you can do a chain of difficult quests to unlock the jedi/sith classes.
This would make most people happy, those who wants to be a jedi/sith and those who doesn't want to see the servers overrun by them.
The Return of the Hologrind. Revenge of the Village of force-sensitive Aurilians. Bloody damned good idea.
/sarcasm off
You haven't contributed one damn thing to this thread unless you think that that snarky comment is making a contribution, MrArchy-snarky.
This just made me laugh in front of my computer screen.
Keep up the good work.
How can jedi/sith ever be equal to anyone else?
That would just not make any sense.
My suggestion is this: make them unlockable elite classes.
When you hit max level with your regular avatar you can do a chain of difficult quests to unlock the jedi/sith classes.
This would make most people happy, those who wants to be a jedi/sith and those who doesn't want to see the servers overrun by them.
The Return of the Hologrind. Revenge of the Village of force-sensitive Aurilians. Bloody damned good idea.
/sarcasm off
You haven't contributed one damn thing to this thread unless you think that that snarky comment is making a contribution, MrArchy-snarky.
To be honest, Jefferson81, neither have you. Hypocrite. { Mod Edit }
As for the OP's point - I can only assume Tillamook is wondering how we'd prefer it to be handled since his own thread here -> www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/209951 has pretty much already answered how BioWare is looking at the issue. The relevant bit is from Rich Vogel -
Rich: You have to understand too, that all the players are heroic. When you play as a non-Jedi class, you're playing a heroic version of that class. Yeah, most Bounty Hunters in the Star Wars universe could probably get beaten up by Luke Skywalker. That said, Jango Fett and Boba Fett can hold their own. Jango Fett actually killed a Jedi in Attack of the Clones. Yeah, he gets killed by the highest level Jedi (Mace Windu) but Boba essentially incapacitates a Jedi in Return of the Jedi. Luke has to be rescued by Han Solo.
Sounds to me like they view the "P" part of PvE as "elite" regardless of class, but NPCs and everything else in the "E" part of PvE as mundane. Kinda makes sense, too, as once you understand how the programming is working PvE is generally pretty easy.
So, to keep certain peeps from getting in a tizzy, I'll answer how I'd like to see it done - i'd like to see it done well. Not a half-baked, repatched, ill-conceived blighted miasma of a NGE, but a well considered, thoughtful approach and elegant solution. Do I know exactly what that is? Nope. Doesn't matter anyways, I'm only gonna get whatever BioWare puts together, so I'm just hoping whatever it is they do they do well.
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
I dunno wat u r smoking but 90% of who wants to play a SW gaem wants to be a Jedi. It is silly deny players taht.
all i hear is a bunch of babies crying because they want to be a jedi and hit their "I win" button and kill everything instantly. get over it.
I think making them a starter class won't hurt anything. All Jedis aren't the superstars like Obi Won and Yoda and all sith aren't powerful like Vader and the Emperor. There are apprentices and journeyman jedis that can obviously be killed by infranty storm troopers and bount hunters ect. I would think there would be a huge appeal to playing a jedi but they will probably be one of the hardest classes to play and hopefully it will be a lot harder to advance and become an elite of this class than the other classes.
I think the only way to properly do SWTOR is to make the classes a tiered system with combo type classes such as FFXI.
The only way to properly balance the Jedi/Sith imo would be to make the oher class types as powerfull as a Jedi. Such as a Bounty hunter, or an intelligent droid.....something that would normally be able to exist on the same level as a Jedi/Sith.