Yeah I have my eye on Darkfall. Just hope they do it right. And no graphics are a not a high concern for me, I prefer playability and depth rather than a purely visual experiance. ( bought RomaVictor after all) Just hope Darkfall dosent do the same lame crap they did and turn skill based game into a extreme lvl grind x 100.... you would get skills every now and then ( seemed random) and the tasks needed to gain in those skills took forever to complete. Even for basic crap like making pile of wood... after you gathered the wood it would take you 30 seconds per peice to stack it LMFAO. They have been adjusting and all but I am not following it much anymore mabe they fixed it some but probably not.
Game companies just need to realize that people dont want to have to spend hours of their time( get less as you get older) doing crap in game to get your character to a point where you can play them and do the things you want to with them. especialy since most of us already have jobs(dont need another) and are playing to escape that crap and paying for it ... I am sure dark fall will be a good game but I doubt they will have it so you choose all your stats and skills and all that at creation and then hone it from there. You will have to completely grind that skill( and probably many more) up to a high lvl to be able to compete I am sure. But will still be better than LvL treadmill I am sure.
Shane
Luckely darkfall will not be a game tailor made for guys like you who want easy instant satisfaction for hour play session a day.
Dont play darkfall if you wanne have it all in a short amount of time.
Many times they said train your skills to 100 will not be fast or easy.
But game is designed so you can from moment you come ingame go straight into the action.
And you can name anything that takes time grind, you prolly say this so you can whine and say darkfall is also a grind game:(
Give up your work so you can also be ingame 15hours a day and keep up with hardcore:P
Not sure if you were just kidding or not...but you obviously did not comprehend or read what I was saying. Trust me I spend well over an hour (more like 4 if I feel like it, and have a game I enjoy ... none atm) a night in game... I just dont want to waste it doing pointless crap I am not interested in.
Stupid quests that are a waste of time... run here get that run back ... go back to him ... Lame as hell.
Attack over and over and over and over and over(feels the same in game as it does reading it...stupid) to raise the skill in swords or whatever... why not just let me have fun the damn start and do something interesting or challenging rather than wasting my time by ( obviously) draging the experiance allong.
I am still blown away that companies cannot see how stupid it is to allow such large gaps between players in strength and skill ( or lvls or whatever). It is like saying you can play with these people, and you can play with these people... now you can inter mingle but it will be a waste of your time as you have no chance against them .....
For any chance of a good community driven game the community needs to be on the same damn playing field.
Dont play darkfall if you wanne have it all in a short amount of time. Many times they said train your skills to 100 will not be fast or easy.
I disagree. As far as I remember, they've said that raising skills will not be a long grind, but rather a convenient side-effect of playing and developing your playstyle. Of course it will get more difficult depending on the skill and what level you're raising it to, but overall I wouldn't say that it will be difficult to develop your character skills.
As you stated, it is the intent of the Darkfall developers to allow players to jump in to an action-filled game. Leveling skills can be a side-effect of jumping in to said action.
Originally posted by Korvenus I agree with the poster who said that if you remove levels then how will you get charcter progression? I remember me and a group of friends were discussing why Zelda is not considered to be a RPG and we came to think that maybe it was because Link did not gain levels. Even at the End Game it was the same Link that you started with but he onnly had better gear. So if you dont progress in levels the only other thing I can think of if progressing by obtaining better gear. If would be intresting to see a MMO with a system like that.
PS Can we please talk about a game without somebody bringing up Darkfall?
Zelda lasts a fair amount of time even without levels if I recall. And another progression could be unlocking dungeons or something. As you say I think it would be interesting.
Originally posted by nomadian another progression could be unlocking dungeons or something.
I agree, I think developers could stretch the amount of content they make by using "unlock" mechanisms rather than levels. It's important that the dungeons be on separate unlocks, though, or at least a widely branching unlock tree. We don't want to see devs falling into the "tiered" mindset again like in WoW.
Originally posted by Neosai I don't quite agree with the poster's view on level less MMO. It is interesting to go in a new direction, but if a game is out that you can achieve your max potential on day one as far as character development goes, I probably won't play for more than a week. Character development is essential for MMO, even if you take the levels away, you will still need some form of character development, other wise most people might be bored pretty fast after creating all sort of character in a few days, the game would be left with a small amount of enthusiasts. The developer need to make enough money to justify making a game, other wise it is just a crushing loss, and also means some people lose their jobs. Here is an example of a level less mmo conversation (assuming the archetype of current mmo is still in effect) : Player A: Wow, that boss was hard. Player B: Seriously, I can't believe I was one shotted. Player A: Yeah, I think we need to find more people for this. Player C: How hard was the boss? Player A: Very hard. Player C: About how hard? Player B: Hmmm, I don't quite know how to put it. Player C: What do you mean? There as to be a way to describe it. Player B: I'd say it is stronger than us. Player C: Ummm, I kinda guessed that. Player A: I am starting to miss the level system. GM: I am sorry, this game does not have the notion of leveling. This level talk is considered inappropriate, you three shall be jailed for 12 hours starting now.
Compared to fighting level 80 monsters while being level 70? In most games you reach a point where you can't grind out more levels and levelling becomes pointless. And for a lot of people this is where the game really "starts". Why not simply skip ahead to this stage and not waste all of that time and effort getting to max level, or even desiging content for those lower levels?
So you guys are sick and tired of grinding levels or grinding skills, all together sick of the mmo "progression" found in all mmorpgs.
I have a suggestion and it fixes all of your woes...
Go play a FPS, it has everything you want, solid pvp with no progression to get to the good stuff.
Sometimes i think people are so confused with what type of game they are playing and what type of game they want to play. If you dont like the slow progression then dont play the genere of games that follows this model. I really think that a majority of this "sandbox" crowd are really just looking for a FPS with mmorpg classes and characters. So yeah, remove levels and character progression and all you get is a FPS with mmorpg classes.
God I have been wanting a game as per the op's description for years now. I know exactly how he is feeling about the state of MMO's. Nothing has really come close to what he is getting at.
So why is there this dependency on lvls? The idea of lvls in games is an outdated game mechanic. They spawned from developers wanting a cheap and easy way out to show character progression. And in MMO's I think the reason lvl's are still such a big part is two fold. One is because they want to easily appeal to the addictive/obsessive parts of all of us so we continue to pay them money so we can "get that higher lvl, so I can get that awesome item, so I can be the best". The other is simply laziness in that "everyone else is doing it so why should we change?”
The main point I want to make, is that I believe games design should have evolved to the point where this kind of thing is no longer needed.
The other point that I want to bring up is that of immersion. If we are immersed in a game, we want to keep playing it. I believe things like visible game mechanics (like lvl's and stats) possibly take you away from being immersed in a game.
The idea of role-playing games is to stick the player into a world where they can feel like they are apart of it. The old school pen-and-paper games achieved this not because of lvls, but because the players made it that way. Why can't we do the same thing with MMO's? Why cant the reason we want to keep paying the devs money each month is because we are having fun being so immersed in a game.
Anyway, that is my 2 cents worth. I'm sure people will disagree, but remember they are just my opinions.
I don't agree that levels are used because they are easy. Levels are used because they are a good way to give everyone a role to play in a group. In a skill system it's more difficult to make group content that is challenging for the player because you don't have any guide for which to balance things around.
I don't agree that levels are used because they are easy. Levels are used because they are a good way to give everyone a role to play in a group. In a skill system it's more difficult to make group content that is challenging for the player because you don't have any guide for which to balance things around.
lvls dont have much to do with roles, classes maybe. I just think that devs are taking the easy way out. If they made the effort, i believe they could develope content for a lvl-less system.
Realizing that players have the abiltity to do play a massive amount of different ways, they can develope systems around that. Increase the impact of other systems like mob A.I. for example. I'm just saying that its technically possible for these types of things now, and that devs shouldn't have to rely upon lvl's.
I agree with the poster who said that if you remove levels then how will you get charcter progression? I remember me and a group of friends were discussing why Zelda is not considered to be a RPG and we came to think that maybe it was because Link did not gain levels. Even at the End Game it was the same Link that you started with but he onnly had better gear. So if you dont progress in levels the only other thing I can think of if progressing by obtaining better gear. If would be intresting to see a MMO with a system like that.
Levels kind of go hand-in-hand with the subscription payment structure is the problem. Developers think customers will grow discontent if they have nothing to show for their dedication. So they award the dedicated with loot and Levels
Problem is the Achievers are driving MMOs and the Developers feel compelled to cater to them. So everyone else ends up suffering because the Achievers keep raising the bar higher and higher. Causing the discrepancy between a Casual and a no-lifer to soar
Note- the only MMO or pseudo-MMO, Guild Wars, escaped the Level based grinds because they use a different payment structure. This allowed them to innovate in interesting ways. PvPers are granted max level and so forth.
Second Life also made interesting innovations and escaped the Level grinds due to their unusual payment structure
For the most part you are talking about Darkfall online.
He's not talking about Darkfall online. No one knows waht that game will be like. He's talking about game design. Darkfall online my be like RF online for all you know, since no one has ever played a beta.
Anyway, I agree. There's really not much difference between levels, and skill levels. I am level 50. I have skill level 50 in blaster pistol, or sword swinging. What's the difference? Not much.
Really, you aren't talking about skills vs levels, since you're talking about a game with no real progression. Levels aren't an issue, since there is no progression. It doen't matter how you make your character if there is no progression.
For example, you can pick from a bunch of skills. Ok. But what if therfe are 100 classes to choose from? Same thing. So it's not skills vs classes, it's progression vs no progression.
But what are you going to do? Half of an MMORPG is advancing your character, either in levels, or skill levels. You've now removed that.
Why fight mobs? No reason really, unless you're leaving in a grind for gear? Or it's just PvP all the time? Or a crafting game?
The difference is, one is pretty much cookie cutter and the other you can mix and match the skills so you end up with a character exactly how you want to play it. Even traits in these level base games really don't come close to adding the variety a skill based system MMO does.
In a skill based game you gain in a skill by doing an activity related to that skill. Example, you'll gain in swords by hitting a monster or player when you have a sword equipped... Unlike level based MMO's, you don't gain xp until after you kill whatever it is you're fighting that then adds XP to your level, same with crafting. In Skill system you gain doing it, in level you gain xp only after completing a sub component or final product.
In level based game you have to grind to certain level to start using certain armours and weapons, only for an expansion to come out to make your stuff useless gain. In a skill based game you can equip a good mighty magic sword as a newbie, but your ability to use it effectively will be greatly reduced, so your swings will miss a lot.
In skill based system mobs have a range of toughness not levels, nothing is stopping a huge group of newbies equipping decent armour given by a guild, then heading out and taking on a really tough mob so the fighting skill they're using will improve better than beating on a lessor mob. In a level game, you all have to make sure you're at least within a certain level range of the mob or its a lot wipes with little xp gained. Skill based you're gained just hitting the mob. Much better
The world is a lot more open to a newbie in what they can do in a skill based game. The feel of building up skills so your character will be what you what it to be is far more satisfying than grinding levels and traits which do a poor job to diversify a population of the same class.
i totally disagree with first part. mmo was more grindy before. now its getting better in this area. and even in the old times, you had games like guildwars and shadowbane, where there was no grind at all. both had also good pvp. not mentioning they are f2p
darkfall, darkfall, darkfall...... people need religion and tend to worship things that do not exist
Playing: Rohan Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
i totally disagree with first part. mmo was more grindy before. now its getting better in this area. and even in the old times, you had games like guildwars and shadowbane, where there was no grind at all. both had also good pvp. not mentioning they are f2p darkfall, darkfall, darkfall...... people need religion and tend to worship things that do not exist
o really tell that to greece and everyone on the forums of df online pshh tired of snid remarks like this
Even games that claim they are not class/level based, and call themselves skill based, really are level/class based... Take UO and Ryzom, you 'level up' skills by grinding/using them, and those skills you grind basically determine your 'class'.
Even games that claim they are not class/level based, and call themselves skill based, really are level/class based... Take UO and Ryzom, you 'level up' skills by grinding/using them, and those skills you grind basically determine your 'class'.
Even games that claim they are not class/level based, and call themselves skill based, really are level/class based... Take UO and Ryzom, you 'level up' skills by grinding/using them, and those skills you grind basically determine your 'class'.
except the diffrence is 100 lvl 1 could never kill a 60-70 thats the diffrence
in df 4 noob characters can kill a master at the game. unless they have no idea what there doing but thats not the point
I don't quite agree with the poster's view on level less MMO. It is interesting to go in a new direction, but if a game is out that you can achieve your max potential on day one as far as character development goes, I probably won't play for more than a week.
Character development is essential for MMO, even if you take the levels away, you will still need some form of character development, other wise most people might be bored pretty fast after creating all sort of character in a few days, the game would be left with a small amount of enthusiasts. The developer need to make enough money to justify making a game, other wise it is just a crushing loss, and also means some people lose their jobs.
Here is an example of a level less mmo conversation (assuming the archetype of current mmo is still in effect) :
Player A: Wow, that boss was hard.
Player B: Seriously, I can't believe I was one shotted.
Player A: Yeah, I think we need to find more people for this.
Player C: How hard was the boss?
Player A: Very hard.
Player C: About how hard?
Player B: Hmmm, I don't quite know how to put it.
Player C: What do you mean? There as to be a way to describe it.
Player B: I'd say it is stronger than us.
Player C: Ummm, I kinda guessed that.
Player A: I am starting to miss the level system.
GM: I am sorry, this game does not have the notion of leveling. This level talk is considered inappropriate, you three shall be jailed for 12 hours starting now.
Compared to fighting level 80 monsters while being level 70? In most games you reach a point where you can't grind out more levels and levelling becomes pointless. And for a lot of people this is where the game really "starts". Why not simply skip ahead to this stage and not waste all of that time and effort getting to max level, or even desiging content for those lower levels?
1. Above example is really only to show that the level system is a reference used for the entire game, and not just your character. Removing level system is fine, but someone has to come up with another replacement reference system. (Unless you work as a game developer, it is always easier say than done)
2. READ WHAT I WROTE in the previous reply. Game developers NEED to make money, which means they want to keep you playing for as long as possible. This means they will not allow you to cake walk to level cap in any MMORPG. Sure, they can remove the level system, but it won't remove the grind. (It is just replaced by something else to grind)
3. Taking away the level system is fine with me, however, no level doesn't mean you get to do endgame content instantly. It will just become a series of harder requirements to complete before doing certain endgame stuff (except it is not endgame since you can do it from day one). Why? Easy, because the level system is gone, and so changes the whole flow of a MMORPG. (Developer has to maintain profit somehow)
4. The true problem is not the level system, it is only being complained about because it is an easy target. The real problem is lack of interesting gameplay to guide people through the levels and into endgame without being tedious. (Sadly, no MMORPG thus far can be considered as doing a good job at this) However, majority of Asian communities enjoy the process of grinding. The value of "Work for your achievements" means alot more in the Asian population.
5. Lastly, by removing the level system without replacing or modify the game to a great extent, the game will end up more similar to an online action game than a MMORPG. Those numbers aren't going to crunch themselves, and without a system of measurements, math is... well... HARD.
Example of a level less system: (using current MMORPG archetype)
No levels, character earn basic stat bonus with points accumulated from quests, killing monsters, etc etc. (By now the programmer is crying due to the amount of math needed to make this level free)
There are variety of skills, stronger skills is either obtained from using previous weaker skills, or by spending alot more points to obtain stronger version. (Now the game designer crys trying balance the points and the rate a skill can be obtained, calculating various limiting factors that will balance out the game without a level limit imposed, and make sure players get at least enough points to spend on essential skills)
Class or no class doesn't matter, since your basic stat and w/e stat bonus you spend your points on determines what type of character you are. (Game designer crys with the programmers trying to figure out a way for party, PvP, or boss fight to be challenging while allow for no class no level system to work) P.S If you don't know how hard this is, then lucky you.
So on and so forth... I have typed long enough. Those that doesn't get it still won't get it anyways.
Conclusion:
Remove level system is fine, but unless you come up with a working system to do it (Take in development cost/time and calcuations that need to be done), then stop. MMORPG is not for you. If you do get a working system however, then praise the lord.
For the most part you are talking about Darkfall online.
He's not talking about Darkfall online. No one knows waht that game will be like. He's talking about game design. Darkfall online my be like RF online for all you know, since no one has ever played a beta.
Anyway, I agree. There's really not much difference between levels, and skill levels. I am level 50. I have skill level 50 in blaster pistol, or sword swinging. What's the difference? Not much.
Really, you aren't talking about skills vs levels, since you're talking about a game with no real progression. Levels aren't an issue, since there is no progression. It doen't matter how you make your character if there is no progression.
For example, you can pick from a bunch of skills. Ok. But what if therfe are 100 classes to choose from? Same thing. So it's not skills vs classes, it's progression vs no progression.
But what are you going to do? Half of an MMORPG is advancing your character, either in levels, or skill levels. You've now removed that.
Why fight mobs? No reason really, unless you're leaving in a grind for gear? Or it's just PvP all the time? Or a crafting game?
There IS a difference in how the levelling is felt.
When you have levels in the game design, this is a global number that you increase by killing things.
When you have skills instead, you need to train the specific skill to increase your skill level. That makes amuch more diverse gameplay. The problem is, it takes a bit more effort to make such a game and something that costs more money with the same unsafe player base, can be troublesome to get done, even if that solution is a much better way to do things. UO did it though.
I am also looking forward to a level less game: World of darkness online.
While what I heard of Df sounds intresting I think WoDO sounds a lot more fun, we have loads of different fantasy games already but not a single gothic-horror game I can think of.
Nothing against DF, I might play it but I will play WoDO, 100% sure of that. In both cases it is nice that the devs think "out of the box", if one of those games get's succesful we might finally get fewer EQ/Wow copys.
Nothing against any particular game aither but most games are using almost the same system and that ain't good even thoug the system works, it kinda makes the evolution of MMOs to be more about graphics and less about how the game works.
I don't quite agree with the poster's view on level less MMO. It is interesting to go in a new direction, but if a game is out that you can achieve your max potential on day one as far as character development goes, I probably won't play for more than a week. Character development is essential for MMO, even if you take the levels away, you will still need some form of character development, other wise most people might be bored pretty fast after creating all sort of character in a few days, the game would be left with a small amount of enthusiasts. The developer need to make enough money to justify making a game, other wise it is just a crushing loss, and also means some people lose their jobs. Here is an example of a level less mmo conversation (assuming the archetype of current mmo is still in effect) : Player A: Wow, that boss was hard. Player B: Seriously, I can't believe I was one shotted. Player A: Yeah, I think we need to find more people for this. Player C: How hard was the boss? Player A: Very hard. Player C: About how hard? Player B: Hmmm, I don't quite know how to put it. Player C: What do you mean? There as to be a way to describe it. Player B: I'd say it is stronger than us. Player C: Ummm, I kinda guessed that. Player A: I am starting to miss the level system. GM: I am sorry, this game does not have the notion of leveling. This level talk is considered inappropriate, you three shall be jailed for 12 hours starting now.
Uh, heard about "challenge rating"? You try to use a system how dangerous something really is based on their dps, hp(if you use a hp system, some PnP rpgs got wounds system instead, like Shadowrun and Vampire) and other factors. There are loads of pen and paper RPGs without levels and many of those are really good.
You could also colour marke the boss, green means easy for the playes, white even challenge and red tougher. Or add a few more colours. Leveless is about character development and the fact that a old character shouldn't be able to kill a 100 noobs (yes, 3 or something he should).
It is about making the game more realistic, levels are coming from the first PnP RPG ever and there are a lot of other better systems like in: Runquest, Warhammer fantasy RPG, Shadowrun, WOD, GURPS and so on. They all work excellent.
I have nothing against levels, they work but every single RPG game is still where the PnP RPGs were in the 70s. There are other good ways to solve the same things and almost no game uses them, it is really a shame. WAR would be a lot funnier if they used the brilliant original system from the RPG (if you havn't tried it, don't comment this, trust me or try it out yourself).
Originally posted by Mitara There IS a difference in how the levelling is felt. When you have levels in the game design, this is a global number that you increase by killing things. When you have skills instead, you need to train the specific skill to increase your skill level. That makes amuch more diverse gameplay. The problem is, it takes a bit more effort to make such a game and something that costs more money with the same unsafe player base, can be troublesome to get done, even if that solution is a much better way to do things. UO did it though.
That is one way of doing it but there are others. You could just get XPs and select the skills you gain also or a combination of both those where you need Xp and have to visit a trainer to get a certain skill.
Or you could automaticly gain skills after a template, not really as fun though.
Usually in levelless PnP RPGs you can customize your character a lot more, it is one of the best points. Together with more realism, not even Musashi or Richard Lionhart could win a fight against 100 noobs in real life. They could kill a few though. Off course leveless system doesn't have to be realistic but they usually feel better then level system.
Even games that claim they are not class/level based, and call themselves skill based, really are level/class based... Take UO and Ryzom, you 'level up' skills by grinding/using them, and those skills you grind basically determine your 'class'.
except the diffrence is 100 lvl 1 could never kill a 60-70 thats the diffrence
in df 4 noob characters can kill a master at the game. unless they have no idea what there doing but thats not the point
There is no reason you could not design a level/class game the same way, so taht 100 level 1 could kill a 60-70 level.
In fact both CoH and WAR do just that, by different mechanisms. In CoH it is the Mentor system, in WAR it's the scenarios where your character is automaticlally adjusted so you can kill any other level character, regardless of your level.
So you guys are sick and tired of grinding levels or grinding skills, all together sick of the mmo "progression" found in all mmorpgs. I have a suggestion and it fixes all of your woes... Go play a FPS, it has everything you want, solid pvp with no progression to get to the good stuff.
Sometimes i think people are so confused with what type of game they are playing and what type of game they want to play. If you dont like the slow progression then dont play the genere of games that follows this model. I really think that a majority of this "sandbox" crowd are really just looking for a FPS with mmorpg classes and characters. So yeah, remove levels and character progression and all you get is a FPS with mmorpg classes.
"Sandbox" advocates aren't only interested in a skill-based character progression. Sandbox also pertains to player-based economies, clan PvP with consequences, and player land-ownership, all in a changing "world" environment, rather than a themepark-esque environment.
I don't quite agree with the poster's view on level less MMO. It is interesting to go in a new direction, but if a game is out that you can achieve your max potential on day one as far as character development goes, I probably won't play for more than a week.
Character development is essential for MMO, even if you take the levels away, you will still need some form of character development, other wise most people might be bored pretty fast after creating all sort of character in a few days, the game would be left with a small amount of enthusiasts. The developer need to make enough money to justify making a game, other wise it is just a crushing loss, and also means some people lose their jobs.
Here is an example of a level less mmo conversation (assuming the archetype of current mmo is still in effect) :
Player A: Wow, that boss was hard.
Player B: Seriously, I can't believe I was one shotted.
Player A: Yeah, I think we need to find more people for this.
Player C: How hard was the boss?
Player A: Very hard.
Player C: About how hard?
Player B: Hmmm, I don't quite know how to put it.
Player C: What do you mean? There as to be a way to describe it.
Player B: I'd say it is stronger than us.
Player C: Ummm, I kinda guessed that.
Player A: I am starting to miss the level system.
GM: I am sorry, this game does not have the notion of leveling. This level talk is considered inappropriate, you three shall be jailed for 12 hours starting now.
Compared to fighting level 80 monsters while being level 70? In most games you reach a point where you can't grind out more levels and levelling becomes pointless. And for a lot of people this is where the game really "starts". Why not simply skip ahead to this stage and not waste all of that time and effort getting to max level, or even desiging content for those lower levels?
1. Above example is really only to show that the level system is a reference used for the entire game, and not just your character. Removing level system is fine, but someone has to come up with another replacement reference system. (Unless you work as a game developer, it is always easier say than done)
2. READ WHAT I WROTE in the previous reply. Game developers NEED to make money, which means they want to keep you playing for as long as possible. This means they will not allow you to cake walk to level cap in any MMORPG. Sure, they can remove the level system, but it won't remove the grind. (It is just replaced by something else to grind)
3. Taking away the level system is fine with me, however, no level doesn't mean you get to do endgame content instantly. It will just become a series of harder requirements to complete before doing certain endgame stuff (except it is not endgame since you can do it from day one). Why? Easy, because the level system is gone, and so changes the whole flow of a MMORPG. (Developer has to maintain profit somehow)
4. The true problem is not the level system, it is only being complained about because it is an easy target. The real problem is lack of interesting gameplay to guide people through the levels and into endgame without being tedious. (Sadly, no MMORPG thus far can be considered as doing a good job at this) However, majority of Asian communities enjoy the process of grinding. The value of "Work for your achievements" means alot more in the Asian population.
5. Lastly, by removing the level system without replacing or modify the game to a great extent, the game will end up more similar to an online action game than a MMORPG. Those numbers aren't going to crunch themselves, and without a system of measurements, math is... well... HARD.
Example of a level less system: (using current MMORPG archetype)
No levels, character earn basic stat bonus with points accumulated from quests, killing monsters, etc etc. (By now the programmer is crying due to the amount of math needed to make this level free)
There are variety of skills, stronger skills is either obtained from using previous weaker skills, or by spending alot more points to obtain stronger version. (Now the game designer crys trying balance the points and the rate a skill can be obtained, calculating various limiting factors that will balance out the game without a level limit imposed, and make sure players get at least enough points to spend on essential skills)
Class or no class doesn't matter, since your basic stat and w/e stat bonus you spend your points on determines what type of character you are. (Game designer crys with the programmers trying to figure out a way for party, PvP, or boss fight to be challenging while allow for no class no level system to work) P.S If you don't know how hard this is, then lucky you.
So on and so forth... I have typed long enough. Those that doesn't get it still won't get it anyways.
Conclusion:
Remove level system is fine, but unless you come up with a working system to do it (Take in development cost/time and calcuations that need to be done), then stop. MMORPG is not for you. If you do get a working system however, then praise the lord.
I agree that it would be a challenge. I dont think it would be as difficult as all that though. Partly as I mean a game with no levels and no skills. You design your character at creation and choose all skills and talents. Would have to be easier to maintain and code if hey dont have to code for all the changes through levels and skills.
What their would be though is a buff system where you use it more ( like skills) you get more and more buffed in that area... but not forever , it would wear off when not in use rather quickly.
That would go for everything including crafting.
As for balancing it with content, that would be just making the experiance more realistic. As I had mentioned needing food to maintain health so you can adventure. That would require someone in the group with a ranger type skill so they can track prey. As the animals would not all group together in pack awaiting slaughter allong trails. Hunting should be a true challenge. Sight, smell and sound should all come into play.
Also as previously mentioned, the weather would be a challenge in it's self. It should affect the character as it does in real life. If it is cold and you get in the water... you better have a change of clothes and a fire to get to fast or it may be game over. I fit is hot as hell and you decide to take a stroll in the desert with one canteen of water, don't be surprised when you see crows flying circles arround you.
The drive would be exploration and the difficulties of said exploration. Not to mention after your difficult journey and you find something new to explore you would need to be rested and prepared enough for whatever encounters you may face.
Now I would think that the difficulty in that would be more towoard the weather and the realisim. Rather than the removal of the need to track every single persons progression through the spectrum of levels. And then apply each individual stat and skill boost durring each roll for each lvl for each player in the battle, especially when you get into the buffs from player to player that vary from lvl to lvl.
Their will be all types of players with all different skill sets but atleast they will know that if this player has this skill it will have the same effect throughout the game and will not need to filtered by levels. Then also they can remove the need for all the extra code needed for writing all the improving clone skills for every single skill from lvl 1-cap.
Their are trade offs and difficulties, but IMO they would all be worth it to have a game that would be interesting and have actual replayability. Due to the player driven content that every player can contribute to from day 1. From battles to politics and the economy of the world. All decided by the communities decisions and actions. And all of the communities decisions could be built on by live events that the devs can come up with on a daily basis, again all based on the decisions the community has made..
Again I know it is not something on the near horrizon... but I hope somewhere out there some dev is thinking like minded and is starting to peice it together.
Comments
Luckely darkfall will not be a game tailor made for guys like you who want easy instant satisfaction for hour play session a day.
Dont play darkfall if you wanne have it all in a short amount of time.
Many times they said train your skills to 100 will not be fast or easy.
But game is designed so you can from moment you come ingame go straight into the action.
And you can name anything that takes time grind, you prolly say this so you can whine and say darkfall is also a grind game:(
Give up your work so you can also be ingame 15hours a day and keep up with hardcore:P
Not sure if you were just kidding or not...but you obviously did not comprehend or read what I was saying. Trust me I spend well over an hour (more like 4 if I feel like it, and have a game I enjoy ... none atm) a night in game... I just dont want to waste it doing pointless crap I am not interested in.
Stupid quests that are a waste of time... run here get that run back ... go back to him ... Lame as hell.
Attack over and over and over and over and over(feels the same in game as it does reading it...stupid) to raise the skill in swords or whatever... why not just let me have fun the damn start and do something interesting or challenging rather than wasting my time by ( obviously) draging the experiance allong.
I am still blown away that companies cannot see how stupid it is to allow such large gaps between players in strength and skill ( or lvls or whatever). It is like saying you can play with these people, and you can play with these people... now you can inter mingle but it will be a waste of your time as you have no chance against them .....
For any chance of a good community driven game the community needs to be on the same damn playing field.
Shane
I disagree. As far as I remember, they've said that raising skills will not be a long grind, but rather a convenient side-effect of playing and developing your playstyle. Of course it will get more difficult depending on the skill and what level you're raising it to, but overall I wouldn't say that it will be difficult to develop your character skills.
As you stated, it is the intent of the Darkfall developers to allow players to jump in to an action-filled game. Leveling skills can be a side-effect of jumping in to said action.
Zelda lasts a fair amount of time even without levels if I recall. And another progression could be unlocking dungeons or something. As you say I think it would be interesting.
I agree, I think developers could stretch the amount of content they make by using "unlock" mechanisms rather than levels. It's important that the dungeons be on separate unlocks, though, or at least a widely branching unlock tree. We don't want to see devs falling into the "tiered" mindset again like in WoW.
Compared to fighting level 80 monsters while being level 70? In most games you reach a point where you can't grind out more levels and levelling becomes pointless. And for a lot of people this is where the game really "starts". Why not simply skip ahead to this stage and not waste all of that time and effort getting to max level, or even desiging content for those lower levels?
So you guys are sick and tired of grinding levels or grinding skills, all together sick of the mmo "progression" found in all mmorpgs.
I have a suggestion and it fixes all of your woes...
Go play a FPS, it has everything you want, solid pvp with no progression to get to the good stuff.
Sometimes i think people are so confused with what type of game they are playing and what type of game they want to play. If you dont like the slow progression then dont play the genere of games that follows this model. I really think that a majority of this "sandbox" crowd are really just looking for a FPS with mmorpg classes and characters. So yeah, remove levels and character progression and all you get is a FPS with mmorpg classes.
God I have been wanting a game as per the op's description for years now. I know exactly how he is feeling about the state of MMO's. Nothing has really come close to what he is getting at.
So why is there this dependency on lvls? The idea of lvls in games is an outdated game mechanic. They spawned from developers wanting a cheap and easy way out to show character progression. And in MMO's I think the reason lvl's are still such a big part is two fold. One is because they want to easily appeal to the addictive/obsessive parts of all of us so we continue to pay them money so we can "get that higher lvl, so I can get that awesome item, so I can be the best". The other is simply laziness in that "everyone else is doing it so why should we change?”
The main point I want to make, is that I believe games design should have evolved to the point where this kind of thing is no longer needed.
The other point that I want to bring up is that of immersion. If we are immersed in a game, we want to keep playing it. I believe things like visible game mechanics (like lvl's and stats) possibly take you away from being immersed in a game.
The idea of role-playing games is to stick the player into a world where they can feel like they are apart of it. The old school pen-and-paper games achieved this not because of lvls, but because the players made it that way. Why can't we do the same thing with MMO's? Why cant the reason we want to keep paying the devs money each month is because we are having fun being so immersed in a game.
Anyway, that is my 2 cents worth. I'm sure people will disagree, but remember they are just my opinions.
I don't agree that levels are used because they are easy. Levels are used because they are a good way to give everyone a role to play in a group. In a skill system it's more difficult to make group content that is challenging for the player because you don't have any guide for which to balance things around.
lvls dont have much to do with roles, classes maybe. I just think that devs are taking the easy way out. If they made the effort, i believe they could develope content for a lvl-less system.
Realizing that players have the abiltity to do play a massive amount of different ways, they can develope systems around that. Increase the impact of other systems like mob A.I. for example. I'm just saying that its technically possible for these types of things now, and that devs shouldn't have to rely upon lvl's.
Yep that would be cool to see
Levels kind of go hand-in-hand with the subscription payment structure is the problem. Developers think customers will grow discontent if they have nothing to show for their dedication. So they award the dedicated with loot and Levels
Problem is the Achievers are driving MMOs and the Developers feel compelled to cater to them. So everyone else ends up suffering because the Achievers keep raising the bar higher and higher. Causing the discrepancy between a Casual and a no-lifer to soar
Note- the only MMO or pseudo-MMO, Guild Wars, escaped the Level based grinds because they use a different payment structure. This allowed them to innovate in interesting ways. PvPers are granted max level and so forth.
Second Life also made interesting innovations and escaped the Level grinds due to their unusual payment structure
He's not talking about Darkfall online. No one knows waht that game will be like. He's talking about game design. Darkfall online my be like RF online for all you know, since no one has ever played a beta.
Anyway, I agree. There's really not much difference between levels, and skill levels. I am level 50. I have skill level 50 in blaster pistol, or sword swinging. What's the difference? Not much.
Really, you aren't talking about skills vs levels, since you're talking about a game with no real progression. Levels aren't an issue, since there is no progression. It doen't matter how you make your character if there is no progression.
For example, you can pick from a bunch of skills. Ok. But what if therfe are 100 classes to choose from? Same thing. So it's not skills vs classes, it's progression vs no progression.
But what are you going to do? Half of an MMORPG is advancing your character, either in levels, or skill levels. You've now removed that.
Why fight mobs? No reason really, unless you're leaving in a grind for gear? Or it's just PvP all the time? Or a crafting game?
The difference is, one is pretty much cookie cutter and the other you can mix and match the skills so you end up with a character exactly how you want to play it. Even traits in these level base games really don't come close to adding the variety a skill based system MMO does.
In a skill based game you gain in a skill by doing an activity related to that skill. Example, you'll gain in swords by hitting a monster or player when you have a sword equipped... Unlike level based MMO's, you don't gain xp until after you kill whatever it is you're fighting that then adds XP to your level, same with crafting. In Skill system you gain doing it, in level you gain xp only after completing a sub component or final product.
In level based game you have to grind to certain level to start using certain armours and weapons, only for an expansion to come out to make your stuff useless gain. In a skill based game you can equip a good mighty magic sword as a newbie, but your ability to use it effectively will be greatly reduced, so your swings will miss a lot.
In skill based system mobs have a range of toughness not levels, nothing is stopping a huge group of newbies equipping decent armour given by a guild, then heading out and taking on a really tough mob so the fighting skill they're using will improve better than beating on a lessor mob. In a level game, you all have to make sure you're at least within a certain level range of the mob or its a lot wipes with little xp gained. Skill based you're gained just hitting the mob. Much better
The world is a lot more open to a newbie in what they can do in a skill based game. The feel of building up skills so your character will be what you what it to be is far more satisfying than grinding levels and traits which do a poor job to diversify a population of the same class.
i totally disagree with first part. mmo was more grindy before. now its getting better in this area. and even in the old times, you had games like guildwars and shadowbane, where there was no grind at all. both had also good pvp. not mentioning they are f2p
darkfall, darkfall, darkfall...... people need religion and tend to worship things that do not exist
Playing: Rohan
Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
o really tell that to greece and everyone on the forums of df online pshh tired of snid remarks like this
Even games that claim they are not class/level based, and call themselves skill based, really are level/class based... Take UO and Ryzom, you 'level up' skills by grinding/using them, and those skills you grind basically determine your 'class'.
truth
except the diffrence is 100 lvl 1 could never kill a 60-70 thats the diffrence
in df 4 noob characters can kill a master at the game. unless they have no idea what there doing but thats not the point
Compared to fighting level 80 monsters while being level 70? In most games you reach a point where you can't grind out more levels and levelling becomes pointless. And for a lot of people this is where the game really "starts". Why not simply skip ahead to this stage and not waste all of that time and effort getting to max level, or even desiging content for those lower levels?
1. Above example is really only to show that the level system is a reference used for the entire game, and not just your character. Removing level system is fine, but someone has to come up with another replacement reference system. (Unless you work as a game developer, it is always easier say than done)
2. READ WHAT I WROTE in the previous reply. Game developers NEED to make money, which means they want to keep you playing for as long as possible. This means they will not allow you to cake walk to level cap in any MMORPG. Sure, they can remove the level system, but it won't remove the grind. (It is just replaced by something else to grind)
3. Taking away the level system is fine with me, however, no level doesn't mean you get to do endgame content instantly. It will just become a series of harder requirements to complete before doing certain endgame stuff (except it is not endgame since you can do it from day one). Why? Easy, because the level system is gone, and so changes the whole flow of a MMORPG. (Developer has to maintain profit somehow)
4. The true problem is not the level system, it is only being complained about because it is an easy target. The real problem is lack of interesting gameplay to guide people through the levels and into endgame without being tedious. (Sadly, no MMORPG thus far can be considered as doing a good job at this) However, majority of Asian communities enjoy the process of grinding. The value of "Work for your achievements" means alot more in the Asian population.
5. Lastly, by removing the level system without replacing or modify the game to a great extent, the game will end up more similar to an online action game than a MMORPG. Those numbers aren't going to crunch themselves, and without a system of measurements, math is... well... HARD.
Example of a level less system: (using current MMORPG archetype)
No levels, character earn basic stat bonus with points accumulated from quests, killing monsters, etc etc. (By now the programmer is crying due to the amount of math needed to make this level free)
There are variety of skills, stronger skills is either obtained from using previous weaker skills, or by spending alot more points to obtain stronger version. (Now the game designer crys trying balance the points and the rate a skill can be obtained, calculating various limiting factors that will balance out the game without a level limit imposed, and make sure players get at least enough points to spend on essential skills)
Class or no class doesn't matter, since your basic stat and w/e stat bonus you spend your points on determines what type of character you are. (Game designer crys with the programmers trying to figure out a way for party, PvP, or boss fight to be challenging while allow for no class no level system to work) P.S If you don't know how hard this is, then lucky you.
So on and so forth... I have typed long enough. Those that doesn't get it still won't get it anyways.
Conclusion:
Remove level system is fine, but unless you come up with a working system to do it (Take in development cost/time and calcuations that need to be done), then stop. MMORPG is not for you. If you do get a working system however, then praise the lord.
He's not talking about Darkfall online. No one knows waht that game will be like. He's talking about game design. Darkfall online my be like RF online for all you know, since no one has ever played a beta.
Anyway, I agree. There's really not much difference between levels, and skill levels. I am level 50. I have skill level 50 in blaster pistol, or sword swinging. What's the difference? Not much.
Really, you aren't talking about skills vs levels, since you're talking about a game with no real progression. Levels aren't an issue, since there is no progression. It doen't matter how you make your character if there is no progression.
For example, you can pick from a bunch of skills. Ok. But what if therfe are 100 classes to choose from? Same thing. So it's not skills vs classes, it's progression vs no progression.
But what are you going to do? Half of an MMORPG is advancing your character, either in levels, or skill levels. You've now removed that.
Why fight mobs? No reason really, unless you're leaving in a grind for gear? Or it's just PvP all the time? Or a crafting game?
There IS a difference in how the levelling is felt.
When you have levels in the game design, this is a global number that you increase by killing things.
When you have skills instead, you need to train the specific skill to increase your skill level. That makes amuch more diverse gameplay. The problem is, it takes a bit more effort to make such a game and something that costs more money with the same unsafe player base, can be troublesome to get done, even if that solution is a much better way to do things. UO did it though.
I am also looking forward to a level less game: World of darkness online.
While what I heard of Df sounds intresting I think WoDO sounds a lot more fun, we have loads of different fantasy games already but not a single gothic-horror game I can think of.
Nothing against DF, I might play it but I will play WoDO, 100% sure of that. In both cases it is nice that the devs think "out of the box", if one of those games get's succesful we might finally get fewer EQ/Wow copys.
Nothing against any particular game aither but most games are using almost the same system and that ain't good even thoug the system works, it kinda makes the evolution of MMOs to be more about graphics and less about how the game works.
Uh, heard about "challenge rating"? You try to use a system how dangerous something really is based on their dps, hp(if you use a hp system, some PnP rpgs got wounds system instead, like Shadowrun and Vampire) and other factors. There are loads of pen and paper RPGs without levels and many of those are really good.
You could also colour marke the boss, green means easy for the playes, white even challenge and red tougher. Or add a few more colours. Leveless is about character development and the fact that a old character shouldn't be able to kill a 100 noobs (yes, 3 or something he should).
It is about making the game more realistic, levels are coming from the first PnP RPG ever and there are a lot of other better systems like in: Runquest, Warhammer fantasy RPG, Shadowrun, WOD, GURPS and so on. They all work excellent.
I have nothing against levels, they work but every single RPG game is still where the PnP RPGs were in the 70s. There are other good ways to solve the same things and almost no game uses them, it is really a shame. WAR would be a lot funnier if they used the brilliant original system from the RPG (if you havn't tried it, don't comment this, trust me or try it out yourself).
That is one way of doing it but there are others. You could just get XPs and select the skills you gain also or a combination of both those where you need Xp and have to visit a trainer to get a certain skill.
Or you could automaticly gain skills after a template, not really as fun though.
Usually in levelless PnP RPGs you can customize your character a lot more, it is one of the best points. Together with more realism, not even Musashi or Richard Lionhart could win a fight against 100 noobs in real life. They could kill a few though. Off course leveless system doesn't have to be realistic but they usually feel better then level system.
except the diffrence is 100 lvl 1 could never kill a 60-70 thats the diffrence
in df 4 noob characters can kill a master at the game. unless they have no idea what there doing but thats not the point
There is no reason you could not design a level/class game the same way, so taht 100 level 1 could kill a 60-70 level.
In fact both CoH and WAR do just that, by different mechanisms. In CoH it is the Mentor system, in WAR it's the scenarios where your character is automaticlally adjusted so you can kill any other level character, regardless of your level.
"Sandbox" advocates aren't only interested in a skill-based character progression. Sandbox also pertains to player-based economies, clan PvP with consequences, and player land-ownership, all in a changing "world" environment, rather than a themepark-esque environment.
Could you direct me to an FPS with those?
Compared to fighting level 80 monsters while being level 70? In most games you reach a point where you can't grind out more levels and levelling becomes pointless. And for a lot of people this is where the game really "starts". Why not simply skip ahead to this stage and not waste all of that time and effort getting to max level, or even desiging content for those lower levels?
1. Above example is really only to show that the level system is a reference used for the entire game, and not just your character. Removing level system is fine, but someone has to come up with another replacement reference system. (Unless you work as a game developer, it is always easier say than done)
2. READ WHAT I WROTE in the previous reply. Game developers NEED to make money, which means they want to keep you playing for as long as possible. This means they will not allow you to cake walk to level cap in any MMORPG. Sure, they can remove the level system, but it won't remove the grind. (It is just replaced by something else to grind)
3. Taking away the level system is fine with me, however, no level doesn't mean you get to do endgame content instantly. It will just become a series of harder requirements to complete before doing certain endgame stuff (except it is not endgame since you can do it from day one). Why? Easy, because the level system is gone, and so changes the whole flow of a MMORPG. (Developer has to maintain profit somehow)
4. The true problem is not the level system, it is only being complained about because it is an easy target. The real problem is lack of interesting gameplay to guide people through the levels and into endgame without being tedious. (Sadly, no MMORPG thus far can be considered as doing a good job at this) However, majority of Asian communities enjoy the process of grinding. The value of "Work for your achievements" means alot more in the Asian population.
5. Lastly, by removing the level system without replacing or modify the game to a great extent, the game will end up more similar to an online action game than a MMORPG. Those numbers aren't going to crunch themselves, and without a system of measurements, math is... well... HARD.
Example of a level less system: (using current MMORPG archetype)
No levels, character earn basic stat bonus with points accumulated from quests, killing monsters, etc etc. (By now the programmer is crying due to the amount of math needed to make this level free)
There are variety of skills, stronger skills is either obtained from using previous weaker skills, or by spending alot more points to obtain stronger version. (Now the game designer crys trying balance the points and the rate a skill can be obtained, calculating various limiting factors that will balance out the game without a level limit imposed, and make sure players get at least enough points to spend on essential skills)
Class or no class doesn't matter, since your basic stat and w/e stat bonus you spend your points on determines what type of character you are. (Game designer crys with the programmers trying to figure out a way for party, PvP, or boss fight to be challenging while allow for no class no level system to work) P.S If you don't know how hard this is, then lucky you.
So on and so forth... I have typed long enough. Those that doesn't get it still won't get it anyways.
Conclusion:
Remove level system is fine, but unless you come up with a working system to do it (Take in development cost/time and calcuations that need to be done), then stop. MMORPG is not for you. If you do get a working system however, then praise the lord.
I agree that it would be a challenge. I dont think it would be as difficult as all that though. Partly as I mean a game with no levels and no skills. You design your character at creation and choose all skills and talents. Would have to be easier to maintain and code if hey dont have to code for all the changes through levels and skills.
What their would be though is a buff system where you use it more ( like skills) you get more and more buffed in that area... but not forever , it would wear off when not in use rather quickly.
That would go for everything including crafting.
As for balancing it with content, that would be just making the experiance more realistic. As I had mentioned needing food to maintain health so you can adventure. That would require someone in the group with a ranger type skill so they can track prey. As the animals would not all group together in pack awaiting slaughter allong trails. Hunting should be a true challenge. Sight, smell and sound should all come into play.
Also as previously mentioned, the weather would be a challenge in it's self. It should affect the character as it does in real life. If it is cold and you get in the water... you better have a change of clothes and a fire to get to fast or it may be game over. I fit is hot as hell and you decide to take a stroll in the desert with one canteen of water, don't be surprised when you see crows flying circles arround you.
The drive would be exploration and the difficulties of said exploration. Not to mention after your difficult journey and you find something new to explore you would need to be rested and prepared enough for whatever encounters you may face.
Now I would think that the difficulty in that would be more towoard the weather and the realisim. Rather than the removal of the need to track every single persons progression through the spectrum of levels. And then apply each individual stat and skill boost durring each roll for each lvl for each player in the battle, especially when you get into the buffs from player to player that vary from lvl to lvl.
Their will be all types of players with all different skill sets but atleast they will know that if this player has this skill it will have the same effect throughout the game and will not need to filtered by levels. Then also they can remove the need for all the extra code needed for writing all the improving clone skills for every single skill from lvl 1-cap.
Their are trade offs and difficulties, but IMO they would all be worth it to have a game that would be interesting and have actual replayability. Due to the player driven content that every player can contribute to from day 1. From battles to politics and the economy of the world. All decided by the communities decisions and actions. And all of the communities decisions could be built on by live events that the devs can come up with on a daily basis, again all based on the decisions the community has made..
Again I know it is not something on the near horrizon... but I hope somewhere out there some dev is thinking like minded and is starting to peice it together.
Shane