Im in the same boat you are, Chris. I am a freshman in highschool, I just dropped skateboarding and I spent lots of money on books about c++, binary, and macroing programs. I know it's tedious but I want to create a game when I grow up. My parents go to CES every year so I'm asking them to get me some guides on programming. I'm also applying to take a programming class at SMU (a college here in Dallas). I'm dropping my art class for digital/graphic art design and an AP computer class. I plan to keep learning programming until I finish college. In fact, I want to work for Blizzard Entertainment because I've played Starcraft since I was 8 and I own every Blizzard game, I love the simple interfaces of their games, yet they are so original and fun. So, if we both ever get that far, see you in the gaming industry
FFXI- Quit after 10 months Ultima Online- Quit after 25 months Ragnarok Online- Quit after a week
i play on australian servers because racism is acceptable there
First off, Runescape was made by 3 guys, 2 of them are brothers, I believe.
I like learning more Runescape lore. What are the names of all 3 guys?
Second, there are way more than 150,000 people playing runescape, 1/3 of the population online at a time is just not possible for a game that international.
Runescape allows players to have an unlimited amount of characters. There is very obviously more than 150,000 characters. But individuale people? The game itself shows server populations instantly all the time. The highest it gets at peak time is roughly 50,000 individual players. Peak time is obviously not all the time. An avarage of 5,000 to 20,000 players play during non-peak time.
Runescape has also added a TON of new servers, with its recent mega-game update. In addition to new graphics, and new features.
Third, there are alot of people working on runescape now, not just one person, lol.
Of course there are. Just like Smeadly and McQuaid did not make EQ on their own by their own 2 selves. Just like Raph Koster, Shug Nix, and Q3PO did not make SWG by their 3 selves. Just like Lord British did not make UO all by himself. They are the main programmers. The ones who set the tone, the direction, the framework, the goal, of the game. 1 to 3 people made Runescape aka they were soley responsible for setting the direction, goal, tone, look, feel, big picture, of Runescape.
Fourth, there are more than 20,000, actually, 30,000 p2p players I would believe.
Re-read my post. I said IF at least 20,000 players pay to play RS, then RS can easily make 100,000 per year to take care of upkeep costs. You are fully supporting my point by saying you think there are 30,000 pay to play players.
WTF does this thing try to install something from my MS visual studio library when I open these windows? I would expect that if I were hunting for warez...but not from here:P
Anyway, you live in dallas? Good place to live. If you need any help I may be able to meet with you at the college I attend on the weekends to help you through some stuff.
Don't go to school to make games... I did for 2 semesters. People come to school so they can make the greatest game ever right after school and make uber money.
These people heard wrong. It takes at least 5 years to actually start in the game programming / graphics business. Businesses don't want college graduates to make games because the game business has alot of risk involved... If the game sucks, the company loses alot of money and then you are out of a job...
Just a fyi. You will be a Game Tester for at least 5 years and making min. wage for that time.... Trust me. i have been told by people like Blizzard and other companies who visted my school.
okay you want to advice, here it is. alot of these guys are just spreading the mis conseptions of people from GameDev and such
The best way to start is not to start your own company. Join a company and learn, you can start your own, but I still think joining one is the best, even if its just for a while.
Aside from popular belief, going to school does help, going to school will get a job as possibly a level designer, or artists, just ask any industry Vet... if you dont go to school your gona get stuck as tester, and thats a much longer, harder road and you might be stuck there forever.
If you want to be a devloper, you have to know, that your not gona be working 9-5, your gona be working, for early in the morning, if you get any sleep.. until somthing gets done. To be a designer, you need to have a general grasps of programming, art and other such things, and generally you should be a very good programmer or artist.
Its NOT an impossible job to get, many people who sit there in there jobs as garbagemen, or engineers sit there and think "thats such a fun job, its got to be impossible to get" Its not! The video game industry has already surpessed the Movie industry Many times over, and its bringing in 10 BILLION dollars a year in revenue.
again, I would reccomend working on your art, or your programming. Goto college/University, learn about business. Then apply, do mods for games (best thing to do) people who do mods can show that they can finish a project from start to finish and that looks good, as the biggest problem with beginners is that they start somthing, get half way through and start somthing else.
I would HIGHLY.. no I would URGE and INSIST that you goto the library and see if they have "Game Creation and Careers" by Marc Saltzman If they dont have it, buy it, this book is amazing and packed with info. It has reccomendations from hundreds of Industry Vets, such as Bill Roper and Rob Pardo (Blizzard), Shigeru Miyamoto (Nintendo) and MANY more.
again , too many people will say "you cant do it", "Its impossible to get a job" You CAN and its NOT. but it is an industry that requires work.. and is not for lazy people.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Originally posted by madjake /nitpickmode on I don't know where you got all those figures Xplororor, do you have any sources, or explicit experience with companies and/or the MMOG field? I'd be interested in hearing the reasoning. I don't want to come off as being an ass with this comment but I find most of your information hard to believe. Sources and references would be great. (Edit: I'm mainly referring to your cost estimates and price tags) And you probably just slipped up but Runespace wouldn't be written in Javascript, it'd be written in Java. /nitpickmode off Something to add to the originator of this topic: Start off small and at the same time read everything you can get your hands on about programming practices and design, not just language-specific topics. If any classes are offered at your school, take them. Heck, take a class at the community college in your area if possible. ---------------------- Jake I'd hate to die twice. It's so boring - Richard P. Feynman, 1988
My source and soruces? Sure no problem.
Buisness 2.0 magazine. They have done numerous interviews with game DEVs, and specifically mention the exact dollar amounts of the major MMORPGs. From those it is very easy to make an educated guess for others.
For example Buisness 2.0 specifically mentions EQ costing 5 million to make. Since AC is of the same game engine generation as EQ, one can make an educated guess AC cost roughly 5 million to make.
Originally posted by Maxxx Don't go to school to make games... I did for 2 semesters. People come to school so they can make the greatest game ever right after school and make uber money. These people heard wrong. It takes at least 5 years to actually start in the game programming / graphics business. Businesses don't want college graduates to make games because the game business has alot of risk involved... If the game sucks, the company loses alot of money and then you are out of a job... Just a fyi. You will be a Game Tester for at least 5 years and making min. wage for that time.... Trust me. i have been told by people like Blizzard and other companies who visted my school. - Currently Not Playing any MMORPGS -
And... that is simply one way to go about making a game - going to school, then being a cog in the wheel for ....... 5 years as you say.
I have my sights set on the original way game makers made games. Which is the main course of action I advised the original creator of this here thread. The original way game makers made games was.... actually making their own games. Guys like Lord British who made his first game at home in his garage. Guys like Raph Koster who made his own little MUD for gamers on his college campus. Guys like Mehuel Patel who made his own game which is now the biggest free online browser based MMOG on the internet (and has spun off many wanna be copy cats.) Guys like all the folks who made the Atari games, Commodore 64 games, and even IBM PC Jr games.
Heck many PC games from the early, mid, and late 1980's even had a blurb saying "Can you program a game as good or better than this game you have just purchased? Then get in contact with us at [telephone and address listed]"
The original way game makers got into the industry was by saving up 1,000 or 5,000 or even 10,000 bucks, then went after their dream. If their game was half decent, they got noticed by a more major studeo and invited to skip the 5 year slave to the grind BS and jump right in. It takes roughly 6 months to 1 year to 2 years for one to make their own game.
And of course one can even work for a company, while on the side work on their own game heheh. Get the best of both chances.
hehe you sound like me bud i want to be a game designer i already know all about creating them.it depends on your skills if your good at drawing and visualising you might wanna go into the game animator sections creating models and textures for the levels or if your skilled in programming learn C++ and then go for the programming section putting all the controls into the game..
As for asking us if we think 'you' should get into game dev or not... you're the only one who can decide that for you. I've read through the posts here, & you've been given some of the best, most in-depth advice & links around. There are some very saavy gamers/devs here, offering you sage gaming wisdom.
Start by checking out the links & articles. Then, if you're still into trying it out, look for an indie dev team, looking to hire an 'intern'. Just remember, for those of us in indie companies, internship usually translates to: "No monetary payment". However, if the Dev team's on the level, you'll learn way more about the inside of game developing than you could imagine; especially the behind-the-scenes 'sagas' & team dynamics. That kind of knowledge is priceless in this biz.
And yes, Runescape is pushing the envelope in Java; but that doesn't mean that the Gower brothers aren't also game-code programmers. In fact, they & their 'paid' team of designers, artists, & developers are quite knowledgable in their various fields of expertise. I give them much credit for doing what they do, in that regard. That being said, Runescape is a perfect example of what not to do, when trying to grow your game company & player/fanbase. Before you think I'm flaming RS, please note that I was one of the original RS players, way back in their early days of daily crashing...err, 'development'. The game has always been over-run with horribly rude grief/bully players & major scammers; & the chat's still quite full of obscene rants, racism, juvy gay-bashing, etc. The only reason I still login occasionally is because I have several very high lvl chars, & I keep hoping that they will, one day, start spending some serious time ingame, to see where they keep making horrible community mistakes. The large numbers on their servers mean nothing. Most of those numbers reflect the 'free' servers. It's basically a very large & dysfunctional international chatroom, with graphics. Always has been, & sadly, probably always will be. However, it's the perfect online game to 'study', if you want to learn, for free, what not to do, where developing your ingame community is concerned. Yes, they're making good money, & affording a full-time staff. But they keep losing their hardcore player-fanbase at an alarming rate; & always due to their lack of concern about very serious, ongoing, unchecked ingame community issues. The P2Pers are their money base, their lifeblood in this industry. Sooner or later, that kind of p2p turnaround will catch up to them. Of course, in the meantime, they may be able to cry all the way to the bank.
Make sure you play the online games, yourself. Experience is the best teacher. Test drive the betas, & free-trials. You'll quickly learn for yourself what is & isn't working in the industry, today. Take notes while you play~ what's working for you in the 'gaming moment' & what isn't.
Make sure you write down what it is about the title or titles you find, that are so personally appealing to you. And especially, do indepth 'research' on any game(s) environment that becomes so immersive to you, that you forgot to make those ingame notes. Do the same thing with the ones you can't stand, & the ones that just plain leave you feeling nothing either way.
Heh, didn't know you could actually have fun while you start to learn your new craft, did you? Subscribe to the one(s) that appeal to you; & keep a log (after you're done having fun ingame ) on what's still working, or starting not-to-work, for you & your friends. Scour these forum boards. Really study what the online community loves & hates about the current market, & the industry as a whole.
Look into the titles that fail, too; & the ones that seem so promising to our game community, but never even make it to their market launch. I'm currently subscribed to AO, EO, L2, & AC2; & I still beta-test regularly. I've played a lot of other titles too, ones that are now, or are soon-to-be, fond memories. Don't be afraid to try different genres: sci-fi, fantasy, strategy, etc. It's all for the good of your game dev education, afterall.
Now, in all seriousness, it's a lot of hard work & alot of long hours; & it may take a while before you even start to see your efforts 'pay-off'. But the gaming industry today offers so many different fields to specialise in &/or combine. You can run an online gaming fan site (mmorpg.com, anyone? ) , while you study, develop, compose the soundtrack, animate, publish, etc.
And don't, I repeat: DO NOT listen to the negative crowd, who keep saying the industry's doomed, or 'you can't make it in the gaming industry'. Bah! They've never really tried, or they'd know just how many different career paths it currently offers; & how many old & new tradeskills are being used in all facets of the biz. It's a multi-billion dollar business for a very good reason. People from all walks of life & from all around the world love it! And the worldwide fanbase shows no sign of slowing down; even if some of the big corporate game-raiders still can't figure out how to listen to what online gamers really want.
Who knows, Chris. Someday, you just might be one of the mavericks who actually took the time to really listen & learn... & finally comes up with the 'next big thing' we're all searching for.
All the best to you, & to anyone else seriously considering this field.
Comments
FFXI- Quit after 10 months
Ultima Online- Quit after 25 months
Ragnarok Online- Quit after a week
======= SIGNATURE =========
Personal Website (work in progress):
http://www.geocities.com/xplororor/index.html
MMORPG games I've played:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
DAoC (coming soon)
WTF does this thing try to install something from my MS visual studio library when I open these windows? I would expect that if I were hunting for warez...but not from here:P
Anyway, you live in dallas? Good place to live. If you need any help I may be able to meet with you at the college I attend on the weekends to help you through some stuff.
Don't go to school to make games...
I did for 2 semesters. People come to school so they can make the greatest game ever right after school and make uber money.
These people heard wrong. It takes at least 5 years to actually start in the game programming / graphics business. Businesses don't want college graduates to make games because the game business has alot of risk involved... If the game sucks, the company loses alot of money and then you are out of a job...
Just a fyi. You will be a Game Tester for at least 5 years and making min. wage for that time.... Trust me. i have been told by people like Blizzard and other companies who visted my school.
- Currently Not Playing any MMORPGS -
okay you want to advice, here it is.
alot of these guys are just spreading the mis conseptions of people from GameDev and such
The best way to start is not to start your own company.
Join a company and learn, you can start your own, but I still think joining one is the best, even if its just for a while.
Aside from popular belief, going to school does help, going to school will get a job as possibly a level designer, or artists, just ask any industry Vet... if you dont go to school your gona get stuck as tester, and thats a much longer, harder road and you might be stuck there forever.
If you want to be a devloper, you have to know, that your not gona be working 9-5, your gona be working, for early in the morning, if you get any sleep.. until somthing gets done.
To be a designer, you need to have a general grasps of programming, art and other such things, and generally you should be a very good programmer or artist.
Its NOT an impossible job to get, many people who sit there in there jobs as garbagemen, or engineers sit there and think "thats such a fun job, its got to be impossible to get"
Its not!
The video game industry has already surpessed the Movie industry Many times over, and its bringing in 10 BILLION dollars a year in revenue.
again, I would reccomend working on your art, or your programming.
Goto college/University, learn about business.
Then apply, do mods for games (best thing to do)
people who do mods can show that they can finish a project from start to finish and that looks good, as the biggest problem with beginners is that they start somthing, get half way through and start somthing else.
I would HIGHLY.. no I would URGE and INSIST that you goto the library and see if they have "Game Creation and Careers" by Marc Saltzman
If they dont have it, buy it, this book is amazing and packed with info. It has reccomendations from hundreds of Industry Vets, such as Bill Roper and Rob Pardo (Blizzard), Shigeru Miyamoto (Nintendo) and MANY more.
again , too many people will say "you cant do it", "Its impossible to get a job"
You CAN and its NOT.
but it is an industry that requires work.. and is not for lazy people.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
My source and soruces?
Sure no problem.
Buisness 2.0 magazine. They have done numerous interviews with game DEVs, and specifically mention the exact dollar amounts of the major MMORPGs. From those it is very easy to make an educated guess for others.
For example Buisness 2.0 specifically mentions EQ costing 5 million to make. Since AC is of the same game engine generation as EQ, one can make an educated guess AC cost roughly 5 million to make.
======= SIGNATURE =========
Personal Website (work in progress):
http://www.geocities.com/xplororor/index.html
MMORPG games I've played:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
DAoC (coming soon)
And... that is simply one way to go about making a game - going to school, then being a cog in the wheel for ....... 5 years as you say.
I have my sights set on the original way game makers made games. Which is the main course of action I advised the original creator of this here thread. The original way game makers made games was.... actually making their own games. Guys like Lord British who made his first game at home in his garage. Guys like Raph Koster who made his own little MUD for gamers on his college campus. Guys like Mehuel Patel who made his own game which is now the biggest free online browser based MMOG on the internet (and has spun off many wanna be copy cats.) Guys like all the folks who made the Atari games, Commodore 64 games, and even IBM PC Jr games.
Heck many PC games from the early, mid, and late 1980's even had a blurb saying "Can you program a game as good or better than this game you have just purchased? Then get in contact with us at [telephone and address listed]"
The original way game makers got into the industry was by saving up 1,000 or 5,000 or even 10,000 bucks, then went after their dream. If their game was half decent, they got noticed by a more major studeo and invited to skip the 5 year slave to the grind BS and jump right in. It takes roughly 6 months to 1 year to 2 years for one to make their own game.
And of course one can even work for a company, while on the side work on their own game heheh. Get the best of both chances.
======= SIGNATURE =========
Personal Website (work in progress):
http://www.geocities.com/xplororor/index.html
MMORPG games I've played:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
DAoC (coming soon)
hehe you sound like me bud i want to be a game designer i already know all about creating them.it depends on your skills if your good at drawing and visualising you might wanna go into the game animator sections creating models and textures for the levels or if your skilled in programming learn C++ and then go for the programming section putting all the controls into the game..
good luck
Hi gizma,
As for asking us if we think 'you' should get into game dev or not... you're the only one who can decide that for you. I've read through the posts here, & you've been given some of the best, most in-depth advice & links around. There are some very saavy gamers/devs here, offering you sage gaming wisdom.
Start by checking out the links & articles. Then, if you're still into trying it out, look for an indie dev team, looking to hire an 'intern'. Just remember, for those of us in indie companies, internship usually translates to: "No monetary payment". However, if the Dev team's on the level, you'll learn way more about the inside of game developing than you could imagine; especially the behind-the-scenes 'sagas' & team dynamics. That kind of knowledge is priceless in this biz.
And yes, Runescape is pushing the envelope in Java; but that doesn't mean that the Gower brothers aren't also game-code programmers. In fact, they & their 'paid' team of designers, artists, & developers are quite knowledgable in their various fields of expertise. I give them much credit for doing what they do, in that regard. That being said, Runescape is a perfect example of what not to do, when trying to grow your game company & player/fanbase. Before you think I'm flaming RS, please note that I was one of the original RS players, way back in their early days of daily crashing...err, 'development'.
The game has always been over-run with horribly rude grief/bully players & major scammers; & the chat's still quite full of obscene rants, racism, juvy gay-bashing, etc. The only reason I still login occasionally is because I have several very high lvl chars, & I keep hoping that they will, one day, start spending some serious time ingame, to see where they keep making horrible community mistakes. The large numbers on their servers mean nothing. Most of those numbers reflect the 'free' servers. It's basically a very large & dysfunctional international chatroom, with graphics. Always has been, & sadly, probably always will be. However, it's the perfect online game to 'study', if you want to learn, for free, what not to do, where developing your ingame community is concerned. Yes, they're making good money, & affording a full-time staff. But they keep losing their hardcore player-fanbase at an alarming rate; & always due to their lack of concern about very serious, ongoing, unchecked ingame community issues. The P2Pers are their money base, their lifeblood in this industry. Sooner or later, that kind of p2p turnaround will catch up to them. Of course, in the meantime, they may be able to cry all the way to the bank. 
Make sure you play the online games, yourself. Experience is the best teacher. Test drive the betas, & free-trials. You'll quickly learn for yourself what is & isn't working in the industry, today. Take notes while you play~ what's working for you in the 'gaming moment' & what isn't.
Make sure you write down what it is about the title or titles you find, that are so personally appealing to you. And especially, do indepth 'research' on any game(s) environment that becomes so immersive to you, that you forgot to make those ingame notes.
Do the same thing with the ones you can't stand, & the ones that just plain leave you feeling nothing either way.
Heh, didn't know you could actually have fun while you start to learn your new craft, did you?
Subscribe to the one(s) that appeal to you; & keep a log (after you're done having fun ingame 
) on what's still working, or starting not-to-work, for you & your friends. Scour these forum boards. Really study what the online community loves & hates about the current market, & the industry as a whole.
Look into the titles that fail, too; & the ones that seem so promising to our game community, but never even make it to their market launch. I'm currently subscribed to AO, EO, L2, & AC2; & I still beta-test regularly. I've played a lot of other titles too, ones that are now, or are soon-to-be, fond memories. Don't be afraid to try different genres: sci-fi, fantasy, strategy, etc. It's all for the good of your game dev education, afterall.
Now, in all seriousness, it's a lot of hard work & alot of long hours; & it may take a while before you even start to see your efforts 'pay-off'. But the gaming industry today offers so many different fields to specialise in &/or combine. You can run an online gaming fan site (mmorpg.com, anyone?
) , while you study, develop, compose the soundtrack, animate, publish, etc.
And don't, I repeat: DO NOT listen to the negative crowd, who keep saying the industry's doomed, or 'you can't make it in the gaming industry'. Bah! They've never really tried, or they'd know just how many different career paths it currently offers; & how many old & new tradeskills are being used in all facets of the biz. It's a multi-billion dollar business for a very good reason. People from all walks of life & from all around the world love it! And the worldwide fanbase shows no sign of slowing down; even if some of the big corporate game-raiders still can't figure out how to listen to what online gamers really want.
Who knows, Chris. Someday, you just might be one of the mavericks who actually took the time to really listen & learn... & finally comes up with the 'next big thing' we're all searching for.
All the best to you, & to anyone else seriously considering this field.
Happy Gaming! ~ riva1