Why does "PVP Game" imply or demand "Harsh death penalty"? This assumption seems without merit. Yes, WAR is a Carebear game. Big whoop-de-friggin-doo. It's also a FUN game, at least for me, and that's all that matters. There's Shadowbane, there's EVE, there may be Darkfall. Enjoy. WAR is what it is, and isn't likely to change -- if anything, it looks like patches will make getting back into the fight even faster, no more tedious runs across half the zone to get back to the keep. So posting here about WAR is "carebear" is about as useful as going to the Microsoft boards and asking when they're going to open-source Windows.
I have to agree with this guy. Yes I dont like War, yes its carebear. Im the type of person who plays his games on hard-mode and War is ez mode.
But who said pvp ONLY ment carebear pvp like in War??
I like that I have th echoice and the option, that would be like every game out there having ONLY insane mode
Originalegg. Now, now high-speed. I am all for a decent death penalty. You're making me smile. Judging by your posts, I am realy wondering if you do do any pvp. Don't be so "touchy" to defend yourself. Your idea of hard core is out dated.
Originalegg. Now, now high-speed. I am all for a decent death penalty. You're making me smile. Judging by your posts, I am realy wondering if you do do any pvp. Don't be so "touchy" to defend yourself. Your idea of hard core is out dated.
Originalegg. Now, now high-speed. I am all for a decent death penalty. You're making me smile. Judging by your posts, I am realy wondering if you do do any pvp. Don't be so "touchy" to defend yourself. Your idea of hard core is out dated.
Fanbois...
umm. no it's not dated
yea i think someone has a crush on me lol. /carebearstare
why can there be only one? why cant there be a game like war where ppl can jump in and have some pvp without having to worry about losing everything? and why cant there be a game like darkfall that is more hardcore in that you can full loot and there are no safe zones. i dont understand any of you. you thing that there can only be one type of game and it HAS to cater to you. your not the only person on this earth
It's pretty simple really.. i mean real simple. A two year old could comprehend this.
If you don't like the game, and don't like what it's about. STFU and play something else that you like. and stop trying to talk shit.
It's real funny for people to be slinging around carebear. Just because it's not your standards doesn't mean it not up to someone elses. Doesn't make them wrong, and doesnt make you right either... vice versa.
Rather then acting like you have sand in your pussy. Devote your time and resources into something you like. Unless being a whinebox is fun to you..... i dunno.
Originalegg. Now, now high-speed. I am all for a decent death penalty. You're making me smile. Judging by your posts, I am realy wondering if you do do any pvp. Don't be so "touchy" to defend yourself. Your idea of hard core is out dated.
Fanbois...
umm. no it's not dated
yea i think someone has a crush on me lol. /carebearstare
Yawn. We're still talking about being hardcore...in video games right?
Originalegg. Now, now high-speed. I am all for a decent death penalty. You're making me smile. Judging by your posts, I am realy wondering if you do do any pvp. Don't be so "touchy" to defend yourself. Your idea of hard core is out dated.
Fanbois...
umm. no it's not dated
Yes it is out dated. If it wasn't out dated, it would be in far more games...today. Money spoke and that is that.
Non-carebear PvP when the major part of the PvP is big zergfests where the frontliners die like flees unless supported by 2 healers each would pretty much make the game into a midline and backline game only. The kind of PvP that's most common should not have almost any form of penalty at all since that just makes PvP stale, boring and people fear playing a frontliner.
Originalegg is just a fan of Darkfall, so all that person is going to do is go over and try to cause problems in other games threads that dont meat his/her tastes.
To me its a very simple design, WAR is catering to casual players, which just happents to be 80% of the market of MMO players these days.
FFA PVP games though at times fun, will not have the success rates of other pvp games.
I always laugh when people use the term carebears.
Playing: Not much actively. Games played: to many to list, been playing MMO's since 2001 --------------------------
Originalegg is just a fan of Darkfall, so all that person is going to do is go over and try to cause problems in other games threads that dont meat his/her tastes. To me its a very simple design, WAR is catering to casual players, which just happents to be 80% of the market of MMO players these days. FFA PVP games though at times fun, will not have the success rates of other pvp games. I always laugh when people use the term carebears.
Am I a fan of Darkfall? Well yes thanks for pointing out the obvious detective Sortran...
I also played WAR from release and recently canceled. I really wanted the game to work, put a lot of effort into it. But the pvp is pointless and uninspiring. I played WoW way back in the day, and if i wanted that kind of pvp, i would reactivate. I still have a week or so on my WAR sub...but havent logged in in about a week.
Also people saying "hardcore in a video game" well i could make the same arguement that your "omg why would i want to lose my items that i worked so hard for" is just as ridiculous if not more. Arent you suppose to be playing the game for fun? Just like you argue that its virtual pixels...so are those items your epeen has been grinding on for so long. Shouldnt be a problem to lose them then right? Especially in a game like DF when gear means nothing and *GASP* player skill means more.
And to the guy calling my a hypocrit for using a /thing...maybe you should look up what the word means before trying to use it in a big boy sentence.
I was never a fan of PvP, it was PvE all the way. I gave Warhammer a go and now I’m happily PvPing, the thought of going back to PvE and scripted fights are boring (to me).
Maybe War is considered “carebear” but I am now much more willing to look at full loot, or more "hardcore" PvP games, as others might be as well. Is that not a good thing?
Originalegg is just a fan of Darkfall, so all that person is going to do is go over and try to cause problems in other games threads that dont meat his/her tastes. To me its a very simple design, WAR is catering to casual players, which just happents to be 80% of the market of MMO players these days. FFA PVP games though at times fun, will not have the success rates of other pvp games. I always laugh when people use the term carebears.
Well said, but to be fair to the Darkfall fans they are just getting 'payback' for all the flames against their baby over the last 'X' years since it was first announced (where 'X' is debatable & likely to cause another argument).
I am actually looking forward to the impending launch of Darkfall as it means that finally we will finally get to see how this alleged perfect world survives in the real one. Assuming it does launch & the forums don't immediately turn into the 'Towering Inferno' , I might even try it myself just out of curiousity.
You hit the nail on the head though when you said that most MMOs cater to casual players these days who happen to form 80% of the market, although I would probably have put the figure higher. Unfortunately those that classify themselves as 'Serious' or 'Hardcore' seem to be very fond of boasting about it.
I have never understood the need for all this 'Macho Posturing' of 'My Game is Tougher than Your Game', but as the saying goes 'Whatever Floats Your Boat'.
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
Non-carebear PvP when the major part of the PvP is big zergfests where the frontliners die like flees unless supported by 2 healers each would pretty much make the game into a midline and backline game only. The kind of PvP that's most common should not have almost any form of penalty at all since that just makes PvP stale, boring and people fear playing a frontliner.
Completely agree here.
What many "teh hardcorez" do not realize is that death penalties = slower PvP that generally discourages players to take risks.
Imo loosing should be penalized, not dying.
"Realism" isn't really a fun thing if you're making a game about war which is essentially 99% pain, misery, boredom and random, pointless death.
Don't even start that carebear crap. I've dodged more bullets and survived more attempts on my life during my time in the army and law enforcement than a good portion of you have years on this planet. Its a game. I get so sick of the hardcore pvp crowd calling people carebears acting like they are billy bad ass. You boys wasnt to be hard core go to the military or take a law enforcement job in one the crime meccas infesting the US. Until then don't act like you are bad because you like to kill people in a game.
Don't even start that carebear crap. I've dodged more bullets and survived more attempts on my life during my time in the army and law enforcement than a good portion of you have years on this planet. Its a game. I get so sick of the hardcore pvp crowd calling people carebears acting like they are billy bad ass. You boys wasnt to be hard core go to the military or take a law enforcement job in one the crime meccas infesting the US. Until then don't act like you are bad because you like to kill people in a game.
this is the funniest statement on this entire thread.
when talking about warhammers pvp being carebear, someone bring up real life scenarios to the table and gets offended for assuming anyone is calling them a carebear for even playing warhammer.
and then tells others to be apart of the army or police if they want hard core. lol
sir. you need to realise something first.. the entire topic was to talk about how warhammer has no true death penalty and thus it gives less thrill to the idea of surviving or dieing in a battle that could go either way unlike most pvp games that do have a penalty.
its not about people who are to come on and be all macho and act like they are the lich king him self and says stupid things like eyes pwnz alls of uzzzzz !!!111!!!1
no. most typical real "harcorezzz pvpers". might gank a lowbie for laughs once in a blue moon. but for the most part they would play the game as if they were in the real world . and knowing that simple little fact becarefull who you mess with cause the little kid might have a big brother comon sence plays in most mmos./ yes you have your cowards who kill and then run away., or your "leetz" but for the most part its about the immersion that puts players in the game to make them part of the game because of other players that in turn makes the gaming experince better for everybody.
thats what true pvp is. not your stupid fps pvp where you die and and come back and die , and come back and becomes stale really fast
im not sure what everybodys experince is in most mmos, but can say for the least that if anyone in here actully played some mmos in the past where they particaptated in pvp, they can tell you how the rush feels when you go into enemy zone and look for people to kill when there is a conqsequnce to dieing.
and vice versa.
back when eq2 put in a pvp server and they didnt mess around with the pvp that much. the game was tons of fun. i use to take my dark elf necromancer and go out into the world looking for a fight or making sure i didnt come across and good guys who were able enough to kill me. the feeling and rush i got from playing was soooooooooooo much fun i though i was in mmo heaven. the pvp in the game was great because i knew if i died., that was it.. i had to go back to town , get fixed up, pay some debts, do what was needed to be able to get back and enjoy some more. if lets say the pvp was like that of warhammers, then it would of got stale really fast.
and since this game warhammer is about the "RVR" when is people vs people from diffrent sides , you kinda want to send a message to the other guys why they stink and rub it in their face for being chumps, not be okay, that was a nice little pillow fight , wana be friends ? yay im a chaos and i made friends today with a high elf. ,
NO !!!!!, you want to hate each other,. and putting in a decent penalty to dieing in the game would add more fuel to the fire then anything.
The poster above me is clearly unable to distinguish between individual death penalties and penalties for loosing.
These are two completely different things.
Individual death penalties are a bad thing because they lead to cowardice in a group play environment.
"Why should I get penalized for taking risks in order to further my group's goals?"
Individual death penalties are directly at odds with group play philosophy.
For example, there is a goal that is heavily defended but I reckon I have a 50-50 chance of stealing it. With low death penalties I'll do the heroic thing and risk my life to maybe further the group's goal (and thus benefit myself). On the other hand if the individual death penalty is too hard I'll say "Screw this, why should I risk a death penalty? Let someone else do it! Why me? Why not the next guy?"
That's basic Game Theory 101. Is it really that hard to understand?
In addition games are played for pleasure and entertainment. Since I do not have a sadomasochistic complex I'm really not into paying hard earned money to get "punished". Lol, not winning is punishment enough - I'm not paying any money to be molested by some guy for whatever sordid creepy psychological reason he's got. For example I play chess and other competetive board games with my friends in order to have fun with them - and not to cause them grief and feel better for it. I think it's plain sick, tbh. If someone came to my house and played a game with "nah nah nah - I won, I'm better than you! nah nah nah!" I'd throw them right out with a boot in their ass...
If you need to "feel the other person's pain" on the other side of that internet cable then I feel really sorry for you. And I do not want to play the same game as you do.
Our server's forum pages on WHA are quite civil to say the least. Actually some of the guys on the other side are quite cool - I'm more angry at some of our own players for not doing a good job than at any of the other sides guys. And if they win I'll do my best to praise them - I'd rather loose from a worhty opponent than some miserable sod.. because if someone like that is better than me then what am I? "Love your enemy" - there is much wisdom in that, much more than meets the eye.
The poster above me is clearly unable to distinguish between individual death penalties and penalties for loosing. These are two completely different things. Individual death penalties are a bad thing because they lead to cowardice in a group play environment. "Why should I get penalized for taking risks in order to further my group's goals?" Individual death penalties are directly at odds with group play philosophy. For example, there is a goal that is heavily defended but I reckon I have a 50-50 chance of stealing it. With low death penalties I'll do the heroic thing and risk my life to maybe further the group's goal (and thus benefit myself). On the other hand if the individual death penalty is too hard I'll say "Screw this, why should I risk a death penalty? Let someone else do it! Why me? Why not the next guy?" That's basic Game Theory 101. Is it really that hard to understand? In addition games are played for pleasure and entertainment. Since I do not have a sadomasochistic complex I'm really not into paying hard earned money to get "punished". Lol, not winning is punishment enough - I'm not paying any money to be molested by some guy for whatever sordid creepy psychological reason he's got. For example I play chess and other competetive board games with my friends in order to have fun with them - and not to cause them grief and feel better for it. I think it's plain sick, tbh. If someone came to my house and played a game with "nah nah nah - I won, I'm better than you! nah nah nah!" I'd throw them right out with a boot in their ass... If you need to "feel the other person's pain" on the other side of that internet cable then I feel really sorry for you. And I do not want to play the same game as you do.
I pretty much find myself agreeing with everything you've said here. Except what I would ask is, if there's no real risk (risk here being defined by the penalty I will recieve upon failure) doesn't that make victory rather hollow? I mean when you say you want to do the heroic thing to help your group, if you do it knowing there will be little to no ramifications for failure is that heroic?
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
The poster above me is clearly unable to distinguish between individual death penalties and penalties for loosing. These are two completely different things. Individual death penalties are a bad thing because they lead to cowardice in a group play environment. "Why should I get penalized for taking risks in order to further my group's goals?" Individual death penalties are directly at odds with group play philosophy. For example, there is a goal that is heavily defended but I reckon I have a 50-50 chance of stealing it. With low death penalties I'll do the heroic thing and risk my life to maybe further the group's goal (and thus benefit myself). On the other hand if the individual death penalty is too hard I'll say "Screw this, why should I risk a death penalty? Let someone else do it! Why me? Why not the next guy?" That's basic Game Theory 101. Is it really that hard to understand? In addition games are played for pleasure and entertainment. Since I do not have a sadomasochistic complex I'm really not into paying hard earned money to get "punished". Lol, not winning is punishment enough - I'm not paying any money to be molested by some guy for whatever sordid creepy psychological reason he's got. For example I play chess and other competetive board games with my friends in order to have fun with them - and not to cause them grief and feel better for it. I think it's plain sick, tbh. If someone came to my house and played a game with "nah nah nah - I won, I'm better than you! nah nah nah!" I'd throw them right out with a boot in their ass... If you need to "feel the other person's pain" on the other side of that internet cable then I feel really sorry for you. And I do not want to play the same game as you do.
I pretty much find myself agreeing with everything you've said here. Except what I would ask is, if there's no real risk (risk here being defined by the penalty I will recieve upon failure) doesn't that make victory rather hollow? I mean when you say you want to do the heroic thing to help your group, if you do it knowing there will be little to no ramifications for failure is that heroic?
All games are zero-sum, whether it's obvious or not. Someone always wins and someone looses.
For example - here are three very simple rulesets:
1) Winner gets 0 points, looser -1
2) Winner gets 1 points, looser 0
3) Winner gets 2 points, looser 1
All three cases are perfectly equal mathematically - the difference between loosing and winning is always 1 point. However, it is very clear that psychologically ruleset 3 is absolutely the best. Why? Because in ruleset 3 even the looser gets something and is therefore compelled to play again. Ruleset 2 leads to apprehension and frustration and set 1 is just pain - I don't see why anyone would play it because the options are pain/nothing.
That's on the individual psychological level.
On the level of social mechanics just look at the example of group sports.. What do you think sports like football, soccer and basketball would be like if there were no group goals? Or if there were harsh individual penalties? The most valued players are always those who place their teams goals ahead of their own - "if the team wins, I win." Imagine what basketball would be like if there was an individual penalty for missing that basket? Go and play a game with your buddies where you have to pay 5$ for missing that hoop while the winning team takes the pool.... Lol, I doubt you'd see many scores in that game.
/add
Just a bit about "heroic". Ofc there is nothing truly heroic about stealing that objective against overwhelming odds... just like there is nothing truly like real war in "war" games like COD4. We're all playing heroes and bad asses in those games. Real heroism is something else entirely and pray to god you'll never get into a situation where you'll have a chance at being a true hero. All those games are just that - games. And if a game is about playing a hero then it should do its utmost at making it accessible to you. These games are all just that - games. I expect relly good payment for any real risk of harm done to my person, whether psychologically or physically - I really don't need that crap when I get home to do some easy entertainment that I pay subscription for.
This is a mmo version of a fps with goal based objectives, the whole purpuse of instant respawn is to simulate an army with reinforements and keep the battle going. Death penalty has no place in this. Serves no purpuse, The lose of a teammate in battle is a bad thing, you loose support and makes it harder for your side to take or keep your objective. Penalty enough.
Wow! Really? I never noticed this! Thank you for bringing it to our attention -- we'd all been unaware of it. I mean, it's weird. You'd think a game whose entire success rests on people playing the PVP portion of it would make sure that PVP was incredibly frustrating and difficult and that any loss was extremely painful and would cost you hours of time spent grinding in PVE. Nothing could make people love PVP more than that, righ? I just don't get it. What WAS Mythic thinking? How could easy, fun, low-risk PVP encourage people to PVP more? How would it get people who normally don't like PVP due to bad memories of UO gang-ganks and EQ corpse runs to try PVP again? I don't see how. You ought to tell Mythic this. I don't think they're aware of this fatal flaw. Maybe there's still time for them to add a feature where, if you die in PVP, your character is deleted and you're charged 100 dollars.
I love how in the first few lines of his post he points how how hardly anyone ever played the kind of PvP he is espousing. God forbid mythic should make PvP something people actually WANT to participate in.
Wow! Really? I never noticed this! Thank you for bringing it to our attention -- we'd all been unaware of it. I mean, it's weird. You'd think a game whose entire success rests on people playing the PVP portion of it would make sure that PVP was incredibly frustrating and difficult and that any loss was extremely painful and would cost you hours of time spent grinding in PVE. Nothing could make people love PVP more than that, righ? I just don't get it. What WAS Mythic thinking? How could easy, fun, low-risk PVP encourage people to PVP more? How would it get people who normally don't like PVP due to bad memories of UO gang-ganks and EQ corpse runs to try PVP again? I don't see how. You ought to tell Mythic this. I don't think they're aware of this fatal flaw. Maybe there's still time for them to add a feature where, if you die in PVP, your character is deleted and you're charged 100 dollars.
I love how in the first few lines of his post he points how how hardly anyone ever played the kind of PvP he is espousing. God forbid mythic should make PvP something people actually WANT to participate in.
Applying the term hardcore to anything pixel related is a joke in and of itself.
Whether the game is "care bear" or not, is of no consequence. People are playing the game and enjoying the pvp and pve as a matter of fact. Where is the point in taking a shit in someone's cornflakes just because you don't like breakfast foods?
This whole thread is trolling. DAoC had a very good following and never offered high risk pvp. The point of the fight here is to establish dominance on one side of the faction or the other. The action in pursuing that point results in a sometimes ending battle with the victors able to look back and say they had a great time.
Every MMO dies eventually, and its the times that you had that relegate the money you spent to "worth it" column on your expense report. God forbid someone actually enjoy this game for what it is.
"Why should I get penalized for taking risks in order to further my group's goals?" This is a kind of disingenuous statement... You're not penalized for taking a risk. You're penalized for failing. Taking a risk doesn't guarantee failure - unless it's a poorly devised or executed plan.
No one plays a game planning to fail - or at least I hope not. They plan to succeed and hope they don't fail. The fact that there's a penalty - be it xp loss, item loss, gear deterioration, whatever... makes players less likely to be whimsical or careless. Conversely, it makes them more likely to step back, figure out what went wrong, why.. and then work out an alternative plan. I have *never* seen the amount of reckless and carless behavior in a MMO like FFXI or Lineage 2 that I've seen WoW or WAR or LoTRO. And I've played both types of games at length - sometimes having active subs to WoW and FFXI at the same time, for example. The difference is night and day.
Here's my personal attitude toward death penalties....
If I'm rewarded for my successes, then it seems only fair to be equally penalized for my failures. I gain xp for defeating a mob. I lose xp for being defeated by one. Tit for Tat. Yin and Yang.
For those who say "I don't want to be penalized by losing hours of my life having to get back xp or gear"...
Well, here's how I and, perhaps others who are more pro-penalty, would see that...
The knowledge that you have that time or xp at risk makes the challenge all the more exciting and makes careful planning and execution all the more important. Which, in turn, makes success all the sweeter... especially in situations that look really grim, but the group pulls together and somehow survives.
In FFXI you can lose xp and/or levels. I don't know the exact ratio, but compared to the cumulative amount of xp and levels I've gained in my time playing, the amount of xp and levels lost to dying is a drop in a bucket. It's negligible.
By comparison, I've died far more in WoW, for example, due to careless or reckless party members who would do stupid things 'cause they didn't care if they, or anyone else for that matter, died.
So... we can discuss philosophical differences in penalty versus no penalty all day long. It boils down to the same thing regardless... That's why nothing is for everyone.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
I have to agree with this guy. Yes I dont like War, yes its carebear. Im the type of person who plays his games on hard-mode and War is ez mode.
But who said pvp ONLY ment carebear pvp like in War??
I like that I have th echoice and the option, that would be like every game out there having ONLY insane mode
Originalegg. Now, now high-speed. I am all for a decent death penalty. You're making me smile.
Judging by your posts, I am realy wondering if you do do any pvp. Don't be so "touchy" to defend yourself. Your idea of hard core is out dated.
Fanbois...
umm. no it's not dated
umm. no it's not dated
yea i think someone has a crush on me lol. /carebearstare
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
Hey! The Sims 2 doesn't have Risk PvP either! Let's start a topic about it!
Seriously. WAR doesn't have it and never claimed it did. Pointless topic? Yes. Might wanna try thinking before you open your mouth? Definately.
By the way, anyone using the word "carebear" and using phrases like "/insertrandominsultingcommandhere" has played WoW for far too long.
Hypocrit.
Yep
It's pretty simple really.. i mean real simple. A two year old could comprehend this.
If you don't like the game, and don't like what it's about. STFU and play something else that you like. and stop trying to talk shit.
It's real funny for people to be slinging around carebear. Just because it's not your standards doesn't mean it not up to someone elses. Doesn't make them wrong, and doesnt make you right either... vice versa.
Rather then acting like you have sand in your pussy. Devote your time and resources into something you like. Unless being a whinebox is fun to you..... i dunno.
But good luck to you!
umm. no it's not dated
yea i think someone has a crush on me lol. /carebearstare
Yawn. We're still talking about being hardcore...in video games right?
umm. no it's not dated
Yes it is out dated. If it wasn't out dated, it would be in far more games...today. Money spoke and that is that.
Non-carebear PvP when the major part of the PvP is big zergfests where the frontliners die like flees unless supported by 2 healers each would pretty much make the game into a midline and backline game only. The kind of PvP that's most common should not have almost any form of penalty at all since that just makes PvP stale, boring and people fear playing a frontliner.
Originalegg is just a fan of Darkfall, so all that person is going to do is go over and try to cause problems in other games threads that dont meat his/her tastes.
To me its a very simple design, WAR is catering to casual players, which just happents to be 80% of the market of MMO players these days.
FFA PVP games though at times fun, will not have the success rates of other pvp games.
I always laugh when people use the term carebears.
Playing: Not much actively.
Games played: to many to list, been playing MMO's since 2001
--------------------------
Am I a fan of Darkfall? Well yes thanks for pointing out the obvious detective Sortran...
I also played WAR from release and recently canceled. I really wanted the game to work, put a lot of effort into it. But the pvp is pointless and uninspiring. I played WoW way back in the day, and if i wanted that kind of pvp, i would reactivate. I still have a week or so on my WAR sub...but havent logged in in about a week.
Also people saying "hardcore in a video game" well i could make the same arguement that your "omg why would i want to lose my items that i worked so hard for" is just as ridiculous if not more. Arent you suppose to be playing the game for fun? Just like you argue that its virtual pixels...so are those items your epeen has been grinding on for so long. Shouldnt be a problem to lose them then right? Especially in a game like DF when gear means nothing and *GASP* player skill means more.
And to the guy calling my a hypocrit for using a /thing...maybe you should look up what the word means before trying to use it in a big boy sentence.
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
I was never a fan of PvP, it was PvE all the way. I gave Warhammer a go and now I’m happily PvPing, the thought of going back to PvE and scripted fights are boring (to me).
Maybe War is considered “carebear” but I am now much more willing to look at full loot, or more "hardcore" PvP games, as others might be as well. Is that not a good thing?
Well said, but to be fair to the Darkfall fans they are just getting 'payback' for all the flames against their baby over the last 'X' years since it was first announced (where 'X' is debatable & likely to cause another argument).
I am actually looking forward to the impending launch of Darkfall as it means that finally we will finally get to see how this alleged perfect world survives in the real one. Assuming it does launch & the forums don't immediately turn into the 'Towering Inferno' , I might even try it myself just out of curiousity.
You hit the nail on the head though when you said that most MMOs cater to casual players these days who happen to form 80% of the market, although I would probably have put the figure higher. Unfortunately those that classify themselves as 'Serious' or 'Hardcore' seem to be very fond of boasting about it.
I have never understood the need for all this 'Macho Posturing' of 'My Game is Tougher than Your Game', but as the saying goes 'Whatever Floats Your Boat'.
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
Take the Hecatomb? TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
Completely agree here.
What many "teh hardcorez" do not realize is that death penalties = slower PvP that generally discourages players to take risks.
Imo loosing should be penalized, not dying.
"Realism" isn't really a fun thing if you're making a game about war which is essentially 99% pain, misery, boredom and random, pointless death.
Don't even start that carebear crap. I've dodged more bullets and survived more attempts on my life during my time in the army and law enforcement than a good portion of you have years on this planet. Its a game. I get so sick of the hardcore pvp crowd calling people carebears acting like they are billy bad ass. You boys wasnt to be hard core go to the military or take a law enforcement job in one the crime meccas infesting the US. Until then don't act like you are bad because you like to kill people in a game.
this is the funniest statement on this entire thread.
when talking about warhammers pvp being carebear, someone bring up real life scenarios to the table and gets offended for assuming anyone is calling them a carebear for even playing warhammer.
and then tells others to be apart of the army or police if they want hard core. lol
sir. you need to realise something first.. the entire topic was to talk about how warhammer has no true death penalty and thus it gives less thrill to the idea of surviving or dieing in a battle that could go either way unlike most pvp games that do have a penalty.
its not about people who are to come on and be all macho and act like they are the lich king him self and says stupid things like eyes pwnz alls of uzzzzz !!!111!!!1
no. most typical real "harcorezzz pvpers". might gank a lowbie for laughs once in a blue moon. but for the most part they would play the game as if they were in the real world . and knowing that simple little fact becarefull who you mess with cause the little kid might have a big brother comon sence plays in most mmos./ yes you have your cowards who kill and then run away., or your "leetz" but for the most part its about the immersion that puts players in the game to make them part of the game because of other players that in turn makes the gaming experince better for everybody.
thats what true pvp is. not your stupid fps pvp where you die and and come back and die , and come back and becomes stale really fast
im not sure what everybodys experince is in most mmos, but can say for the least that if anyone in here actully played some mmos in the past where they particaptated in pvp, they can tell you how the rush feels when you go into enemy zone and look for people to kill when there is a conqsequnce to dieing.
and vice versa.
back when eq2 put in a pvp server and they didnt mess around with the pvp that much. the game was tons of fun. i use to take my dark elf necromancer and go out into the world looking for a fight or making sure i didnt come across and good guys who were able enough to kill me. the feeling and rush i got from playing was soooooooooooo much fun i though i was in mmo heaven. the pvp in the game was great because i knew if i died., that was it.. i had to go back to town , get fixed up, pay some debts, do what was needed to be able to get back and enjoy some more. if lets say the pvp was like that of warhammers, then it would of got stale really fast.
and since this game warhammer is about the "RVR" when is people vs people from diffrent sides , you kinda want to send a message to the other guys why they stink and rub it in their face for being chumps, not be okay, that was a nice little pillow fight , wana be friends ? yay im a chaos and i made friends today with a high elf. ,
NO !!!!!, you want to hate each other,. and putting in a decent penalty to dieing in the game would add more fuel to the fire then anything.
The poster above me is clearly unable to distinguish between individual death penalties and penalties for loosing.
These are two completely different things.
Individual death penalties are a bad thing because they lead to cowardice in a group play environment.
"Why should I get penalized for taking risks in order to further my group's goals?"
Individual death penalties are directly at odds with group play philosophy.
For example, there is a goal that is heavily defended but I reckon I have a 50-50 chance of stealing it. With low death penalties I'll do the heroic thing and risk my life to maybe further the group's goal (and thus benefit myself). On the other hand if the individual death penalty is too hard I'll say "Screw this, why should I risk a death penalty? Let someone else do it! Why me? Why not the next guy?"
That's basic Game Theory 101. Is it really that hard to understand?
In addition games are played for pleasure and entertainment. Since I do not have a sadomasochistic complex I'm really not into paying hard earned money to get "punished". Lol, not winning is punishment enough - I'm not paying any money to be molested by some guy for whatever sordid creepy psychological reason he's got. For example I play chess and other competetive board games with my friends in order to have fun with them - and not to cause them grief and feel better for it. I think it's plain sick, tbh. If someone came to my house and played a game with "nah nah nah - I won, I'm better than you! nah nah nah!" I'd throw them right out with a boot in their ass...
If you need to "feel the other person's pain" on the other side of that internet cable then I feel really sorry for you. And I do not want to play the same game as you do.
Our server's forum pages on WHA are quite civil to say the least. Actually some of the guys on the other side are quite cool - I'm more angry at some of our own players for not doing a good job than at any of the other sides guys. And if they win I'll do my best to praise them - I'd rather loose from a worhty opponent than some miserable sod.. because if someone like that is better than me then what am I? "Love your enemy" - there is much wisdom in that, much more than meets the eye.
I pretty much find myself agreeing with everything you've said here. Except what I would ask is, if there's no real risk (risk here being defined by the penalty I will recieve upon failure) doesn't that make victory rather hollow? I mean when you say you want to do the heroic thing to help your group, if you do it knowing there will be little to no ramifications for failure is that heroic?
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
I pretty much find myself agreeing with everything you've said here. Except what I would ask is, if there's no real risk (risk here being defined by the penalty I will recieve upon failure) doesn't that make victory rather hollow? I mean when you say you want to do the heroic thing to help your group, if you do it knowing there will be little to no ramifications for failure is that heroic?
All games are zero-sum, whether it's obvious or not. Someone always wins and someone looses.
For example - here are three very simple rulesets:
1) Winner gets 0 points, looser -1
2) Winner gets 1 points, looser 0
3) Winner gets 2 points, looser 1
All three cases are perfectly equal mathematically - the difference between loosing and winning is always 1 point. However, it is very clear that psychologically ruleset 3 is absolutely the best. Why? Because in ruleset 3 even the looser gets something and is therefore compelled to play again. Ruleset 2 leads to apprehension and frustration and set 1 is just pain - I don't see why anyone would play it because the options are pain/nothing.
That's on the individual psychological level.
On the level of social mechanics just look at the example of group sports.. What do you think sports like football, soccer and basketball would be like if there were no group goals? Or if there were harsh individual penalties? The most valued players are always those who place their teams goals ahead of their own - "if the team wins, I win." Imagine what basketball would be like if there was an individual penalty for missing that basket? Go and play a game with your buddies where you have to pay 5$ for missing that hoop while the winning team takes the pool.... Lol, I doubt you'd see many scores in that game.
/add
Just a bit about "heroic". Ofc there is nothing truly heroic about stealing that objective against overwhelming odds... just like there is nothing truly like real war in "war" games like COD4. We're all playing heroes and bad asses in those games. Real heroism is something else entirely and pray to god you'll never get into a situation where you'll have a chance at being a true hero. All those games are just that - games. And if a game is about playing a hero then it should do its utmost at making it accessible to you. These games are all just that - games. I expect relly good payment for any real risk of harm done to my person, whether psychologically or physically - I really don't need that crap when I get home to do some easy entertainment that I pay subscription for.
This is a mmo version of a fps with goal based objectives, the whole purpuse of instant respawn is to simulate an army with reinforements and keep the battle going. Death penalty has no place in this. Serves no purpuse, The lose of a teammate in battle is a bad thing, you loose support and makes it harder for your side to take or keep your objective. Penalty enough.
Keep it simple people
I love how in the first few lines of his post he points how how hardly anyone ever played the kind of PvP he is espousing. God forbid mythic should make PvP something people actually WANT to participate in.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
I love how in the first few lines of his post he points how how hardly anyone ever played the kind of PvP he is espousing. God forbid mythic should make PvP something people actually WANT to participate in.
Applying the term hardcore to anything pixel related is a joke in and of itself.
Whether the game is "care bear" or not, is of no consequence. People are playing the game and enjoying the pvp and pve as a matter of fact. Where is the point in taking a shit in someone's cornflakes just because you don't like breakfast foods?
This whole thread is trolling. DAoC had a very good following and never offered high risk pvp. The point of the fight here is to establish dominance on one side of the faction or the other. The action in pursuing that point results in a sometimes ending battle with the victors able to look back and say they had a great time.
Every MMO dies eventually, and its the times that you had that relegate the money you spent to "worth it" column on your expense report. God forbid someone actually enjoy this game for what it is.
Here's my personal attitude toward death penalties....
If I'm rewarded for my successes, then it seems only fair to be equally penalized for my failures. I gain xp for defeating a mob. I lose xp for being defeated by one. Tit for Tat. Yin and Yang.
For those who say "I don't want to be penalized by losing hours of my life having to get back xp or gear"...
Well, here's how I and, perhaps others who are more pro-penalty, would see that...
The knowledge that you have that time or xp at risk makes the challenge all the more exciting and makes careful planning and execution all the more important. Which, in turn, makes success all the sweeter... especially in situations that look really grim, but the group pulls together and somehow survives.
In FFXI you can lose xp and/or levels. I don't know the exact ratio, but compared to the cumulative amount of xp and levels I've gained in my time playing, the amount of xp and levels lost to dying is a drop in a bucket. It's negligible.
By comparison, I've died far more in WoW, for example, due to careless or reckless party members who would do stupid things 'cause they didn't care if they, or anyone else for that matter, died.
So... we can discuss philosophical differences in penalty versus no penalty all day long. It boils down to the same thing regardless... That's why nothing is for everyone.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops