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Did WoW put the nail in the coffin for niche mmos?
nomadian
Member Posts: 3,490
Following reading someone's blog it got me really wondering this; whether the impact WoW has had was to put the nails in the coffins of niche mmos. An example, DAoC lost a lot of subscribers by the time WoW came out(whereas before this it had a decently healthy subscription level) And Ryzom, a mmo made post-WoW, is struggling to find many subscribers and is even offering itself free for a stage just to incent some numbers to try the game. Had Ryzom come before WoW would it have been more popular?
With WoW's presence being a big magnet on potential subscribers to any of these new niche mmos some of these other mmos are now ghosttowns. When a key appeal to playing mmos are other people this has to be a big offputter to potential new players of a mmo.
Thoughts? Bullshit? Or could this seen to have been an effect- and furthermore possibly being a fuel for various old players' resentment of the genre?
Comments
There will always be players for niche games. What WoW did ruin is the chance for something different from a AAA mmo developer. Now all we will get is something very close (sometimes sickeningly close) to what WoW already is with more bugs.
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Well I personally hope that WoW didn't put the final nail in the coffin. I am looking forward to a few games in development that are being made by smaller companies. They seem to be the ones willing to make something a bit different n settle for a smaller playerbase.
It seems the larger companies are simply looking at WoW n trying to copy as much from them as possible. So I don't expect any of the more popular, larger companies to bring out anything but another version of WoW to appeal to the larger WoW fanbase.
While I am not looking for that next WoW killer, I would much rather play something that is not WoW in a different skin.
What is your real issue here?
DAoC lost a lot of subscribers before WoW even came out because of trials of atlantis expansion. That was about a year before WoW and numbers just kept dwindling. It was mostly Mythic's poor handling. I don't think niche games are in trouble, because that is what they are, niche.
WoW will have good numbers for quite a while, but if someone were to release an actual good game, people would flock to it. It seems people are desperate for one. I mean, look at Darkfall. People are practically rabid over a game that has been in development for years with constants lies and delays, yet still believe it will be the best game ever. That game is a ffa pvp, which is totally niche.
It is not that WoW is a bad game, but people get bored of it eventually and want something new. I think especially people that started MMOs before WoW.
Also, I don't necessarily think big population is a draw. People say it is, then all they do is solo, I don't understand that, lol.
I think if a solid game comes out with good gameplay, graphics, and maybe a "world" feeling to it, people will play and it will do well. Probably not even close to WoW numbers, but really well is like 500k subscribers. I'm sure even niche games would like a 100-200k sustained subscriber base. Anyway, I tihnk just the ooposite atm, that niche games and in general other MMOs coming out have a good chance to succeed because people really want a good game to come out.
Niche games can and will succeed in their niche markets!
WoW has pretty much "perfected" the PvE grind. It's hard to compete with it. I'm not much of a WoW fan myself (I'm playing Vanguard, which I like a lot better - but I also understand why it's a niche game), but I can see how smooth and streamlined the gameplay is in WoW. It's definitely appealing to a mainstream audience.
Companies that are releasing a primarily PvE game set in a fantasy universe need to understand that they will NOT put a dent in WoW. WoW is the Coca Cola of MMOs. The best anyone can hope for right now is to be the Pepsi. But more realistically, they will be the Sam's Cola. Which is okay! Sam's Cola sells well enough and tastes almost as good as "the real thing".
So yeah, niche games, especially ones with interesting concepts (like the Otherworld MMO), definitely have a shot at being successful and profitable. They just need to figure out how to make a game that can survive on 100-200k subscribers and be realistic. Stop pouring mountains of money into PvP games (WAR, AOC) and then act shocked when everyone goes back to what they are familiar with.
I just wish these companies would stop trying to make the AAA WoW-killer and just focus on making something different, unique, challenging and, most importantly, fun to play.
A good example in the single-player world is Portal. An astronomical budget does not a good game make!
Well this is two pronged for me,
WoW influenced a lot, if not all developers to mimic them to some point.
However most MMO's are a frickin mess and that is the real problem.
I played DAoC in its prime and it was an expansion called "Trials of Atlantis" that killed that one a good couple of years BEFORE WoW.
Ryzom was launched in such bad shape it was hardly playable. The ideas behind the game were great but it cut is own throat with an exceptionally poor launch and incomplete features.
Look at AoC. A shit poor launch killed it.
Vanguard, again a suck ass launch killed this incomplete game. At release it spiked to around 250k users which dropped off within the first few months to the pathetic amount it has now.
The list of games killed by sucky launches goes on and on....
The flip side of that is games with successful launches that minic WoW to closely don't necessarily do great. LotR is probably the best example of that. Sure its a respectible game with a decent sub base but it didn't come close to WoW type success although one would have thought it should have but it comes down to this
Why play LotR when you can just play WoW, they are so similar its silly to switch.
So, how many initial sales (first 30 days) do you predict Darkfall to have?
Darkfall will have his own nich market and blossom all over, wow can't hurt Darkfall 2 totally different styles of mmo's.
It prolly even get a couple of thousend ex- wow players.
But opposite direction darkfall to wow will never happen so darkfall win nomatter what but it will always be a nich game for hardcore only that love sandbox.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
"So, how many initial sales (first 30 days) do you predict Darkfall to have?"
That is really difficult to say. If they actually stay true to their word this time about approximate release date ( and that is a big IF), it could be decent. They have what, maybe 100k people signed up for beta? Maybe half that will buy game right away, especially if the beta is not so open. If the game does well, word will spread and they might get over 100k, but frankly I just don't see it.
This is a very niche game compared to some others. The more I look at the numbers and where it is being released, the sales just come out lower, and that is if the fairly new fanbase isn't completely alienated and the game is good. Way too many uncertainties.
meant to quote like usual, just didn't work properly for some reason, lol, so I just added it in.
when I think of niche MMO's I think of it like inde movies vs big blockbusters. The "inde" MMO's might not pull the numbers but will have a fanbase more dedicated to the ideas of the game whereas the blockbuster MMO will always pull greater numbers. Eventually though I think this will level out.
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
Once Darkfall releases, everyone will quit WoW and realize what a true MMORPG is.
I'd say the outlook is grim for the niche games. What does it cost to get a niche game up and running, and what do you have to charge for a monthly fee, and how many subscribers do you have to get at 14.95 to make your money back?
It's pretty hard to get 14.95 for a niche game, when people can pay 14.95 and get WoW.
On the other hand, if you charge less than 14.95, you need a lot more subscribers, and we're talking about a "niche" which means limited subscribers.
It won't be easy for a niche game to make it post WoW.
Doesn't sound like much in the way of flocking to me.
I think most people who try Darkfall will do so to play something different. After seeing the hardcore nature of the game, most will bail. Darkfall doesn't have a large marketing budget and that will contribute to lower than usual initial sales.
Doesn't sound like much in the way of flocking to me.
I think most people who try Darkfall will do so to play something different. After seeing the hardcore nature of the game, most will bail. Darkfall doesn't have a large marketing budget and that will contribute to lower than usual initial sales.
I meant the flocking more for less hardcore niche games tbh. Just other solid gameplay games. A lot of people went to WAR, probably hoping it was a daoc 2. To me it was disappointing.
Very few people I know are "rabid" about Darkfall. I don't play pvp, so obviously I don't know many who do, mostly when I mention Darkfall I get the repy "What's that?" There is a core of people interested in this game, but I wouldn't call it huge. Niche games can succeed, but the smart developers concentrate on making a good limited product. Eve Online is a good example of that. I think most people just don't care about MMOs, just people like us who hang around forums.
No, there just hasn't been anyone willing to go out on a limb in quit some time. I don't think you can count VG as that was only a half working game, and no one is going to play a broken POS.
TCoS is coming out. Its a niche game. I don't know if it will be any good, but its niche.
You can't get mad at Blizzard for Capitalizing on other games. They simply saw what EQ did, and made it better. Don't get me wrong I hold EQ dear to my heart, but SOE had it coming.
- Air
I think WoW had the exact opposite effect on the industry. It really introduced many more players to the industry and opened up markets further. Pre-WoW most games thought of themselves as successful with only 100k users. Over 1 million and the game had a god-like status. For some reason now people consider a game successful if they have over 1 million users. Statistically, if you look at many new mmos released, they consistently have more players then in mmos released before WoW. These numbers don't last long as many are just trying the game, but the market is bigger.
Take Lord of the Rings Online for example. Turbine has not produced a game that can peak 200k subscribers. However, Lord of the Rings outdid that by 10 fold. You are looking at companies having initial player counts in the millions where as before they would be in the thousands.
This also does not apply to just AAA quality titles. Players new to mmos who came off WoW are now discovering and trying more mmos. Primarily the free ones, even outlandish old titles with a small staff like Planeshift have had a spike in players on the game. Runescape became a phenomena with teens.
yep this is why i have always said that WoW has hurt the MMO industry more than it helped.
1) Polish is more important than revolutionizing
2) Simplistic to gain the casual gamer is more important than depth and critical thinking
3) Themeparks quick powerhour gaming is more important than large robust worlds
it just makes me sad when many singleplayer RPGs are heading down the "open world gameplay path" where MMOs are heading toward the single player path.
I obviously embelished a little bit, but because someone doesn't know someone interested in something, does not make it so. There are various games people are more interested in they there should be. I am not stating this is because of WoW or anything, just that for many, there are no games out there that interest people. This could be from the slew of wow like games.
People are looking for something different. I know I am. Darkfall does seem interesting, but I am not particularly a hardcore pvp person myself. I always preferred rvr type games. besides that, I gave up on df long ago, lol.
Really my whole point was, i think there is a good market out there for a quality game, niche or otherwise, maybe because all there is out there is a wow like game. Funny thing is, you can say every game and no game is like wow, so all that is subject to interpretation and obviously wow didnt come out first. To me it was just a lesser version of EQ.
Look at aion. There is a decent size following appearing, but you know, I just don't see what the big deal is about it. From what I've seen and read, it seems to be the same old crap all over again. It just seems to me people are jumping towards new games coming out moreso than they did 5 years ago.
Is it because of a lack of MMOs out there, not enough variety, or is it the newer generation in gaming that leaps at the next new shiny thing? I don't know, what do you all think?
I'm just seeing a trend of people fanatically following something for little reason except it is new. In much greater numbers than before.
As to the little amount of flocking, it was intended more towards like AoC and WAR. A lot of people went to those games, and a lot left, moreso aoc than war. I was looking for quality rvr in war, and found cheap scenarios and little variety unlike daoc.
WoW can't hold EQ's jockstrap they are not even in the same league.
I agree also it has hurt the industry. Just look at all the poor games that have continuously come out. I probably go on a bit like before because i've just become disheartened and jaded about the whole MMO industry. I just want a truly epic world to immserse myself in, whether casually or hardcore.
Ok, think I am actually going back to work now before I depress myself thinking of the status of MMOs, lol.
I agree also it has hurt the industry. Just look at all the poor games that have continuously come out. I probably go on a bit like before because i've just become disheartened and jaded about the whole MMO industry. I just want a truly epic world to immserse myself in, whether casually or hardcore.
Ok, think I am actually going back to work now before I depress myself thinking of the status of MMOs, lol.
All I want is something different. . .I played WoW, don't like it, and I certainly don't like games trying to be WoW.
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Doesn't sound like much in the way of flocking to me.
I think most people who try Darkfall will do so to play something different. After seeing the hardcore nature of the game, most will bail. Darkfall doesn't have a large marketing budget and that will contribute to lower than usual initial sales.
I meant the flocking more for less hardcore niche games tbh. Just other solid gameplay games. A lot of people went to WAR, probably hoping it was a daoc 2. To me it was disappointing.
I have this theory. That people try games out just to have something little different or a change of pace. That's why they visit a game for 30 days and not resub. They got a little taste, but it wasn't what they needed and they go back whatever they were playing. So when these peoplel flock to the FOTM game, they are not doing it because it's war/vangaurd/ddo/aoc, but that it is different/change of pace.
WoW can't hold EQ's jockstrap they are not even in the same league.
yep true while one has multi millions of players wiht mlti award winning acaldaes the other has fallen inot the shadows. They tried to make Eq2 at the same time as wow hoping it would pwn wow, so much for that. So Wows has Eq jockstrap and its balls and shoved them up soes ass.
Millions of players doesn't impress me at all ... hell Mcdonalds has fed more people than many resturants combined ... does that mean it has the best food?
who gives a shit about EQ2? where did i mention that game? and by the way EQ2 is still a better game than WoW and EQ1 blows both of them away.
I don't think WoW hurt or killed Niche MMOS...I think players keep expecting "niche' mmos even if they're based off large IP properties to ahve larger populations because there are so may new MMO players in the world now. They forget new players chose X game because its on TV and MR T says its cool or their friends dragged them there or they simply enjoy games made by X Developer but they don't necessarily like MMOs.
Just because 1 game got all fat and bloated with tons of people who wouldn't normally play MMO games doesn't mean Niche Markets are suddenly going to see an increase. As long as a game has a healthy population on two or three servers they're considered rather successful and they do make the company money to continue on. Turbine is pretty much proof of this. Smarter developers start with a decent or large amount of servers now because its pretty much a fact that on launch day noobie zones are hell on earth with so many people starting at once. Then slowly over time they transfer or merge. But any sign of transfer & merge can auto start the "omg its dying' troll firing which isn't necessarily true.
Several games have seen merges and free transfers so that the populations are more well rounded to make the game enjoyable and their doors are still open, they're still making expansions, add ons, and doing their business. Infact its the ones that refuse to merge or transfer that have the worse time. There was even a time in which WoW had to many servers and if you started on a fresh one it was the most horrorficially boring experience ever because MMOS Need People.