thats your best comeback? "uh dur analogy stupid" ... and really ... is it? you are saying that millions of people play it so that because it has a higher subscriber base its the best MMO out there. thats what the little WoW fans say "most subscribers = best!". Well lets use that logic in other areas of business .. resturants. can you disprove that Mcdonalds is a resturant that does high sales of food?
so thus by your logic (the most = best equation) that Mcdonalds has to be one of the best resturants around right? How about movies the top grossing movie of all time is Titanic so again by your logic (most = best) Titanic IS THE BEST MOVIE EVER MADE!
so now doesnt that logic sound downright stupid now?
As for grinding, I don't mind it ... to me thats part of the game its especially much more fun when you have a group of friends working together for exp. but most WoW players wouldn't know shit about that since they are too busy solo questing.
Oh look when they fail, they bring up the most idiotic analogy by idiotic internet users. Yes the hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of grinding was fun........... oh wait wasnt that what wow had, then everyone complained because to get items you had to spend months and months and months and months raiding? or grinding for items. Now you want the make your eyes bleed things that are historic back? I swear people on this forums just flip and flip everyone week to months. No wounder why no recent mmo succeeds, its not because of wow its because of the idiot mmo players not knowing what they want, then when they get it they whine like bitches. Eq grinding days are over. Unless your saying grinding is what you want, but i thought that world of grindcraft( thats what you people liek to call it) was not wanted?
Lets see
Swg was losing subs hadn over fist long before wow was around, same with daoc, same with daoc and the same with Eq. So how did wow actually destroy anything. Infact wow has the biggest vet swg, eq, uo, DAOCC ETC ETC SUBS OF ANY MMO. If not for wow these so called vets would not even be playing mmos anymore most likely with. If wow had not come out EQ2 would have single hadedley destroyed the mmo market end of story.
What's the matter Martie? You sound awfully defensive. Is someone picking on your favorite game again?
Don't worry 11million players can't be wrong, just like the 2billion people that smoke know its the best thing for them.
It's a Jeep thing. . . _______ |___| \_______/ = |||||| = |X| \*........*/ |X| |X|_________|X| You wouldn't understand
-WoW draws the kiddies away from the niche MMORPGs...on the positive side
-but on the negative side...most major companies will look at WoW as benchmark and innovation of new mmorpg game concepts will stagnate...
-niche mmorpgs with unique gameplay or setting will still exist on a smaller level...I'm always coming back to WWII Online / Battleground Europe which is now 7 years old and still unique in its features, setting and gameplay possibilities...
----------------------------------- Life is too short to play bad games.
There is more room in the MMOsphere now than prior to WoW. The overall combined population of all MMOs is so much larger now that it should be easy to release a niche game and easily draw enough people that it outdoes what was once considered a highly successful game before 2005.
The problem has always been developers stopped asking themselves a few questions which keeps their games in less that successful conditions.
1) Is my game finshed and ready for launch? You can scratch off about 9/10 games for this very reason alone
2) Is my game fun? Most games are more "niche" than they need to be, because the designs just miss the mark.
3) Is there a reasons for someone to play my new game over whatever they are already playing? It doesn't matter if #1 and #2 are true if the new game doesn't offer a compelling reason for people to stop their previous game to play the new one.
thats your best comeback? "uh dur analogy stupid" ... and really ... is it? you are saying that millions of people play it so that because it has a higher subscriber base its the best MMO out there. thats what the little WoW fans say "most subscribers = best!". Well lets use that logic in other areas of business .. resturants. can you disprove that Mcdonalds is a resturant that does high sales of food? so thus by your logic (the most = best equation) that Mcdonalds has to be one of the best resturants around right? How about movies the top grossing movie of all time is Titanic so again by your logic (most = best) Titanic IS THE BEST MOVIE EVER MADE! so now doesnt that logic sound downright stupid now? As for grinding, I don't mind it ... to me thats part of the game its especially much more fun when you have a group of friends working together for exp. but most WoW players wouldn't know shit about that since they are too busy solo questing.
You know, given the benefit of hindsight, EQ/Lineage/Lineage 2 were not really the best models for MMOs. And yes, Lineage I & II were Everquest, with some improvements and some weaknesses. If we want to talk true EQ clones, it's those two.
And yet even Lineage II has run away from its grind roots.
Questing group versus solo is its own discussion, but XP grind is stupid, no ifs, ands, or buts.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
Interesting responses all- it seems as if main opinion is no.
@Torak what you say is true about the launch thing, and ok I stand corrected on DAoC although I do think WoW would still have had an effect on it and I think they did release classic servers(Pre-ToA I'm guessing)
Originally posted by Cleffy I think WoW had the exact opposite effect on the industry. It really introduced many more players to the industry and opened up markets further. Pre-WoW most games thought of themselves as successful with only 100k users. Over 1 million and the game had a god-like status. For some reason now people consider a game successful if they have over 1 million users. Statistically, if you look at many new mmos released, they consistently have more players then in mmos released before WoW. These numbers don't last long as many are just trying the game, but the market is bigger. Take Lord of the Rings Online for example. Turbine has not produced a game that can peak 200k subscribers. However, Lord of the Rings outdid that by 10 fold. You are looking at companies having initial player counts in the millions where as before they would be in the thousands. This also does not apply to just AAA quality titles. Players new to mmos who came off WoW are now discovering and trying more mmos. Primarily the free ones, even outlandish old titles with a small staff like Planeshift have had a spike in players on the game. Runescape became a phenomena with teens.
Bad example there I think to be fair. Yes WoW's numbers probably has aided Lord of the Rings- but it should probably be said that Lord of the Rings Online isn't really niche, and is an IP.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I play a niche game (EVE) so my vote is no. And judging from Games in Development you could easily argue that most of them are aiming for a niche. I think we're in good shape actually, and next year should bring some surprises.
I hope you're right Kyleran, I hope you're right.
It's a Jeep thing. . . _______ |___| \_______/ = |||||| = |X| \*........*/ |X| |X|_________|X| You wouldn't understand
I play a niche game (EVE) so my vote is no. And judging from Games in Development you could easily argue that most of them are aiming for a niche. I think we're in good shape actually, and next year should bring some surprises.
I've noticed a lot of niche games in development too and that makes me happy since there will be a little variety out there.
I do like that WoW introduced a lot of players into the MMO market, but the way that it hurt the industry is companies just started seeing big $$$ and tried to copy that, turning out garbage. Look at the upcoming SW:TOR. Didn't they say they want to compete with WoW numbers? That makes me a little apprehensive about the type of product coming out.
I think the reason we're seeing more niche MMOs is because people have noticed just cloning WoW isn't really paying off so they want to tap another market that might be more sustainable. Think about it for a minute. Why play a WoW clone from a smaller company with limited resources when WoW is already out there. No reason to except for a breather as someone mentioned earlier.
So if you want people to play, leave WoW and stay, it has to be something different, fun. Of course doesn't matter where they come from, as long as they play and stay.
Oh, and the classic servers on daoc did rejuvinate the game for a bit. I saw the number increase and I had a blast, but inexorably, people dwindled away. The decline in EQ was mostly because it was just getting dated I think and people were moving on. Also some questionable decisions eventually for end game I've heard. I stopped finally at about the GoD expansion, so I don't know too much what happened after.
I must say, when I went back a few years ago, I was like damn these graphics suck, then after like 2 hours of playing, I didn't notice anymore and it looked good to me. Kind of like a friend that is a girl who is kind of ugly, you get to know her well, and then she starts to look good. It has quality gameplay, but no graphics, but after a while the graphics just don't matter
I play a niche game (EVE) so my vote is no. And judging from Games in Development you could easily argue that most of them are aiming for a niche. I think we're in good shape actually, and next year should bring some surprises.
I've noticed a lot of niche games in development too and that makes me happy since there will be a little variety out there.
I do like that WoW introduced a lot of players into the MMO market, but the way that it hurt the industry is companies just started seeing big $$$ and tried to copy that, turning out garbage. Look at the upcoming SW:TOR. Didn't they say they want to compete with WoW numbers? That makes me a little apprehensive about the type of product coming out.
I think the reason we're seeing more niche MMOs is because people have noticed just cloning WoW isn't really paying off so they want to tap another market that might be more sustainable. Think about it for a minute. Why play a WoW clone from a smaller company with limited resources when WoW is already out there. No reason to except for a breather as someone mentioned earlier.
So if you want people to play, leave WoW and stay, it has to be something different, fun. Of course doesn't matter where they come from, as long as they play and stay.
Oh, and the classic servers on daoc did rejuvinate the game for a bit. I saw the number increase and I had a blast, but inexorably, people dwindled away. The decline in EQ was mostly because it was just getting dated I think and people were moving on. Also some questionable decisions eventually for end game I've heard. I stopped finally at about the GoD expansion, so I don't know too much what happened after.
I must say, when I went back a few years ago, I was like damn these graphics suck, then after like 2 hours of playing, I didn't notice anymore and it looked good to me. Kind of like a friend that is a girl who is kind of ugly, you get to know her well, and then she starts to look good. It has quality gameplay, but no graphics, but after a while the graphics just don't matter
I agree. The genre has to get over the "WoW slump" eventually. When one clone after another fails to meet expectation and/or retain customers, well, that's telling you some thing. I still think there could be some interesting MMOs comming in 2010-2012, but we'll have to wait for more info on most of those games.
I'm still really interested to see what happens in the genre once WoW subs drop down to a normal MMO level. It will happen, probably within the next five years. And, when it does happen, we'll really get to find out where all the players go. Will there be several big MMOs? Will there be a new WoW (I doubt it)? Or, will most of the WoW generation just get bored with the genre?
There is more room in the MMOsphere now than prior to WoW. The overall combined population of all MMOs is so much larger now that it should be easy to release a niche game and easily draw enough people that it outdoes what was once considered a highly successful game before 2005.
Really? If its so easy why has no other MMO come close to 1 million subscribers after 3 months? Sorry, LOTRO had no where near 1 million subs even at its highest point(not to mention its more boring than WoW, imo). If it had that many it would've announced it.
WoW is one of a very select few MMOs that actually grows every year. What other MMO can say that after 4 years its still growing? Not EQ or DAoC(whom people try to claim these games declined due to age). EQ cut its on throat with PoP and GoD, and DAoC killed itself with ToA. Too many of you think that anyone can do what WoW did. No western MMO to date has even had a tenth of the subscirbers that WoW has. Let that sink in before you start ranting how easy it "should" be. Its tough to make a good game, and for that good game to stay on top. I hate WoW just as much as the next guy, but they have a winning formula and have stuck to it. SoE and Mythic both failed to stick to their formula. Both companies are guilty of doing a complete 180 on their games.
The problem isn't the devs, either. Its publishers/investors. They are the ones who have to commit all the money. Right now, that's all publishers are interested in. Getting crap out there as cheap and fast as possible. Just like all the PC and console games. We have thousands of games, but rarely is one actually a 9 or 10.
Its going to take another small company like Mythic used to be or CCP. Just look at SOE its creating another WoW clone in The Agency. Even better its free so all the kiddies and mental midgets will be playing it.
Really? If its so easy why has no other MMO come close to 1 million subscribers after 3 months? Sorry, LOTRO had no where near 1 million subs even at its highest point(not to mention its more boring than WoW, imo). If it had that many it would've announced it.
WoW is one of a very select few MMOs that actually grows every year. What other MMO can say that after 4 years its still growing? Not EQ or DAoC(whom people try to claim these games declined due to age). EQ cut its on throat with PoP and GoD, and DAoC killed itself with ToA. Too many of you think that anyone can do what WoW did. No western MMO to date has even had a tenth of the subscirbers that WoW has. Let that sink in before you start ranting how easy it "should" be. Its tough to make a good game, and for that good game to stay on top. I hate WoW just as much as the next guy, but they have a winning formula and have stuck to it. SoE and Mythic both failed to stick to their formula. Both companies are guilty of doing a complete 180 on their games. The problem isn't the devs, either. Its publishers/investors. They are the ones who have to commit all the money. Right now, that's all publishers are interested in. Getting crap out there as cheap and fast as possible. Just like all the PC and console games. We have thousands of games, but rarely is one actually a 9 or 10. Its going to take another small company like Mythic used to be or CCP. Just look at SOE its creating another WoW clone in The Agency. Even better its free so all the kiddies and mental midgets will be playing it.
WoW had a lot of things going for it when it launched. Some of those exact same things are now working against it but for the most part it's simply riding its own momentum, and I agree, it'll be hard for a small no-name company to break the magic 1 mil barrier, and the AAA companies still seem infatuated with making clones.
When I got tired of WoW and finally quit, I tried EQ2, only to feel like I was four years late to the party that I'd just left, DDO, but the huge amount of instancing turned me off, and I really didn't like how their setting was confined to a single city.
So I tried Eve and even though I wasn't huge into pvp at the time (and remained mostly not into pvp for another year), I was one of those lucky people who pretty much 'got it' right off the bat (the skill system is very similar to an old pen and paper game I used to play called Traveler, so I was pretty much able to wrap my head around it right away) and I've been having a blast ever since, despite the fact that there's no space dragons, spell-slinging mages, levels and xp, or anything else that a fantasy nut like me is used to.
So, in all honesty, I stayed because it's a good game that's not WoW. There are a *lot* of people playing Eve for largely the same reason, and I think MMO devs are making a big mistake by trying to steal WoW's current, for the most party happy, customers, instead of appealing to WoW's former customers would be a lot more willing to try something new. From my own 2+ years in WoW I'm reasonably certain that most people who have ever played WoW have quit - that's a huge, largely untapped market.
Originally posted by brostyn Really? If its so easy why has no other MMO come close to 1 million subscribers after 3 months? Sorry, LOTRO had no where near 1 million subs even at its highest point(not to mention its more boring than WoW, imo). If it had that many it would've announced it.
WoW is one of a very select few MMOs that actually grows every year. What other MMO can say that after 4 years its still growing? Not EQ or DAoC(whom people try to claim these games declined due to age). EQ cut its on throat with PoP and GoD, and DAoC killed itself with ToA. Too many of you think that anyone can do what WoW did. No western MMO to date has even had a tenth of the subscirbers that WoW has. Let that sink in before you start ranting how easy it "should" be. Its tough to make a good game, and for that good game to stay on top. I hate WoW just as much as the next guy, but they have a winning formula and have stuck to it. SoE and Mythic both failed to stick to their formula. Both companies are guilty of doing a complete 180 on their games. The problem isn't the devs, either. Its publishers/investors. They are the ones who have to commit all the money. Right now, that's all publishers are interested in. Getting crap out there as cheap and fast as possible. Just like all the PC and console games. We have thousands of games, but rarely is one actually a 9 or 10. Its going to take another small company like Mythic used to be or CCP. Just look at SOE its creating another WoW clone in The Agency. Even better its free so all the kiddies and mental midgets will be playing it.
I think you misread my post as we are saying almost the same exact things. It wasn't my intention to imply that it is easy to release a good game and get 1 million subscribers. Just the opposite, I was saying the market very much exists for a game to grab large numbers of subscribers, but that hasn't been realized due to rushed incomplete games.
In reference to the original posters comments, I don't think WoW has squashed the market for competition. Both AoC and Warhammer reached roughly a million copies in about 2 months? Much faster than anything before. It is still to early to tell about Warhammer, but those sales numbers show the market potential at least.
You are correct in saying that publishers/investors are a big part of the problem. I'm sure they make live hell for devs and I didn't mean to overlook thier hand in things.
yep this is why i have always said that WoW has hurt the MMO industry more than it helped. 1) Polish is more important than revolutionizing
2) Simplistic to gain the casual gamer is more important than depth and critical thinking
3) Themeparks quick powerhour gaming is more important than large robust worlds it just makes me sad when many singleplayer RPGs are heading down the "open world gameplay path" where MMOs are heading toward the single player path.
All your points are HELPING the MMO industry, not hurting it. Polish, accessible gameplay and themepark all contribute to BETTER entertainment.
And there is nothing wrong when MMO take the good ideas of SP games and vice versa.
Some people always write something like : 'There will always be players that like different kind of MMO's or niche games'.
The problem however is that the investors behind MMO's dont give a crap about that. With WoW's financial success they all cling to the same MMO mold and go for the in their eyes safe route.
And the few times that a developer starts developing a game that breaks the WoWmould, they have to postpone release into eternity because of lack of funding, or they have to release it into a buggy state. With as result they get flamed into oblivion and we all learned, bad rep can kill a game, even if there is good potential.
Apparently players want a combination of things that cant be done atm : A dev company that finds heavy funding for an original (investors read : not safe) idea OR a dev company that creates an original MMO using low funding, but without bugs and preferable a lot of polish (which needs time=money).
Good luck with that!
I bet there are loads of developers with awesome ideas for new MMO's, but they simply wont find the money to develop it.
EVE is as niche as it gets, and it is doing strong as ever.
All WoW did was make developers get lazy. If a truly amazing niche game comes out, it may not reach WoW numbers, but it will certainly swell with players. Maybe not even immediately, but over time it will happen.
The only thing to me that i have noticed, is that wow didn't perfect the grind, or perfect anything. What they did was massive raise the bar for ease of use. Games like Ryzom i didn't like because combat was much too quick passed for me to even try. At least in the newbie area.
A lot of niche games come out promising the niche, but fail to deliver on the ease of use, thus they flop. AOC has a great niche, but its combat was so clunky and awkward it annoyed the living crap at me. I felt like i was watching my character attack, not that i was attacking.
The key thing for balance though ease of use and exploring. Games like asherons call had a great exploring and almost no direction but is still a blast to just roam around killing stuff. The problem is the ease of use, it is horrible at that.
What we really need, if you want to survive is 3 steps.
1) fine niche
2) make game easy to learn and play (you can still have easy to learn hard to master)
3) ensure that there are difficulty in some aspect (exploring, raid bosses, etc)
if you look at wow, you have the niche of the world of warcraft, with spells and classes and grouping. You have it very easy to learn and play, and you have difficulty in the raid bosses. Where people get bored with it is when they can't get to the raid bosses due to poor guild or what have you.
Niche games will always be my top choice in MMOs no matter what, WOW and its various clones... well you will never see me stoop that low to play those abominations, the features and the game mechanics in thos game make me cringe. People want to play simplifed, solo questing games ? Go ahead like the rest of the sheep who dont know any better and dont know that there is always something out there more challenging and complex waiting to show these lost souls there are other games out there that dont care about 10 mil gold farmers or 36 automated accounts players , these niche games appeal to certain types of players with a taste in certain aspects of MMOs not trying to appease everyone.
Games not just MMOs have all became dumbed down for the kiddies these days, all wanting flashy graphics and bringing no real content to the table (insert game here) example AOC, another one Aion just disguised as another Korean grinder with the ability nothing really new there. Its gotten to the point where I wont even buy games now I download them try them out and then just maybe I might buy it if the replay value is high.
There are people out there that wont touch WOW or its clones with a 10 foot pole, so niche games will never die as long as there is a playerbase for them that want more than just hearing asshat kids and conscending guild leaders dictate their members like tyrants, we will always pick the less popular game cause more than likely its probably 10x better than the POS games everyone else is playing.
Developers actually believed fanboys when they said that release is always buggy/lacking content/unbalanced, and that it's acceptable.
It's not.
Why would anyone settle for a game with very little content, buggy, unpolished, and generally trashy feeling mmo, when they could play one with lots of content, not buggy, very polished, and great? Because it's new? That's why WAR and AoC suffered from the dine and ditchers. who play for a month and never come back.
You have to release a mmo ready to duke it out with the already released ones, or you are going to fail.
This isnt 1998 anymore, just being a online game isnt wowzaz new amazingness awesome.
You now have to make a good game.
And frankly I hope the PC marketing as a whole slowly starts realizing it. And stops shoveling out buggy/early releases, just to get them out and then MAYBE patch it?
I do not think releasing a wow clone is safe. People never go for them en'masse and once they realise that the game offers nothing really new compared to the already established polished game they have been playing and have all the characters and social conections already established, they are going to cancel and go back to the original game.
That is the reason no other MMO than wow managed record numbers recently - they all try to appeal to the same populace and steal wow's players, but once the intrigued players come over and try it, and realise there is almost nothing new, they just go back.
Thinking that making a wow clone is a safe bet is wrong, its just that people didn't realise yet.
Making a next big thing will be a combination of innovative approaches to the stale genre, coupled with good funding, most likely from the developers outside the genre who will be able to think outside the established ways, because the current "old" companies prove over and over and over that they are just plain unable to think outside certain, let's call them dogmas.
Here is a short list of what I think are the areas that are the future of the genre:
- player created content
- customisation of the character and impact of the surroundings and the way you play to the look of the character
- quests getting deeper than "bring 10 badger toenails" wrapped in a pretty paper.
- influence of the player on the gameworld and certain events influencing how the world looks like (pre - searing and post searing ascalon in GW )
and many many more,
yet for some reason we are stuck with the formula:
- add 2 or more factions that are unable to win or lose and are stuck in eternal status quo
- add a couple of run-on-the-mill classes
- create a couple of playfields
- add levels
- add a bunch of kill and collect quests
- create a couple of instances and put a boss in the end of them
- add water
et voila - your next MMORPG is created - now go think why your players are not staying.
You can't get mad at Blizzard for Capitalizing on other games. They simply saw what EQ did, and made it better. Don't get me wrong I hold EQ dear to my heart, but SOE had it coming.
Don't forget Blizzard had a huge fan base who came from the battle.net service. Warcraft 2 alone had a huge following on battle.net. Their numbers alone made sure WOW was already going to be a huge success with sub numbers. Blizzard made double sure of that by paying attention to a lot of detail with the lore from the RTS games.
Darkfall will release and be the most successful NICHE game in the Universe.
Everyone is allowed to dream.
I"m sure it will rock when it comes out, i mean we have seen all that player created videos, and leaked info. Dont forget that they update their site daily with new content for people to read. And have you seen their website, top notch!
My fav is still when they produced that very shitty first EQ looking video showing "gameplay" where everyone ran up to each other, stood still and smacked each other in the most shitty graphics i've seen, followed by them saying "we put it on shitty graphics on purpose".
My personal hope is that spellborn will come through. Their classes aren't the classic classes, you dont have the target and spam buttons. If you stand toe to toe you will die. Oh, and mobs do more than just run at their target, these mobs actually dodge and plan attacks.
Comments
thats your best comeback? "uh dur analogy stupid" ... and really ... is it? you are saying that millions of people play it so that because it has a higher subscriber base its the best MMO out there. thats what the little WoW fans say "most subscribers = best!". Well lets use that logic in other areas of business .. resturants. can you disprove that Mcdonalds is a resturant that does high sales of food?
so thus by your logic (the most = best equation) that Mcdonalds has to be one of the best resturants around right? How about movies the top grossing movie of all time is Titanic so again by your logic (most = best) Titanic IS THE BEST MOVIE EVER MADE!
so now doesnt that logic sound downright stupid now?
As for grinding, I don't mind it ... to me thats part of the game its especially much more fun when you have a group of friends working together for exp. but most WoW players wouldn't know shit about that since they are too busy solo questing.
What's the matter Martie? You sound awfully defensive. Is someone picking on your favorite game again?
Don't worry 11million players can't be wrong, just like the 2billion people that smoke know its the best thing for them.
_______
|___
\_______/
=
|X| \*........*/ |X|
|X|_________|X|
You wouldn't understand
-WoW draws the kiddies away from the niche MMORPGs...on the positive side
-but on the negative side...most major companies will look at WoW as benchmark and innovation of new mmorpg game concepts will stagnate...
-niche mmorpgs with unique gameplay or setting will still exist on a smaller level...I'm always coming back to WWII Online / Battleground Europe which is now 7 years old and still unique in its features, setting and gameplay possibilities...
-----------------------------------
Life is too short to play bad games.
There is more room in the MMOsphere now than prior to WoW. The overall combined population of all MMOs is so much larger now that it should be easy to release a niche game and easily draw enough people that it outdoes what was once considered a highly successful game before 2005.
The problem has always been developers stopped asking themselves a few questions which keeps their games in less that successful conditions.
1) Is my game finshed and ready for launch? You can scratch off about 9/10 games for this very reason alone
2) Is my game fun? Most games are more "niche" than they need to be, because the designs just miss the mark.
3) Is there a reasons for someone to play my new game over whatever they are already playing? It doesn't matter if #1 and #2 are true if the new game doesn't offer a compelling reason for people to stop their previous game to play the new one.
You know, given the benefit of hindsight, EQ/Lineage/Lineage 2 were not really the best models for MMOs. And yes, Lineage I & II were Everquest, with some improvements and some weaknesses. If we want to talk true EQ clones, it's those two.
And yet even Lineage II has run away from its grind roots.
Questing group versus solo is its own discussion, but XP grind is stupid, no ifs, ands, or buts.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
Interesting responses all- it seems as if main opinion is no.
@Torak what you say is true about the launch thing, and ok I stand corrected on DAoC although I do think WoW would still have had an effect on it and I think they did release classic servers(Pre-ToA I'm guessing)
Bad example there I think to be fair. Yes WoW's numbers probably has aided Lord of the Rings- but it should probably be said that Lord of the Rings Online isn't really niche, and is an IP.
I play a niche game (EVE) so my vote is no.
And judging from Games in Development you could easily argue that most of them are aiming for a niche.
I think we're in good shape actually, and next year should bring some surprises.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I hope you're right Kyleran, I hope you're right.
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You wouldn't understand
I've noticed a lot of niche games in development too and that makes me happy since there will be a little variety out there.
I do like that WoW introduced a lot of players into the MMO market, but the way that it hurt the industry is companies just started seeing big $$$ and tried to copy that, turning out garbage. Look at the upcoming SW:TOR. Didn't they say they want to compete with WoW numbers? That makes me a little apprehensive about the type of product coming out.
I think the reason we're seeing more niche MMOs is because people have noticed just cloning WoW isn't really paying off so they want to tap another market that might be more sustainable. Think about it for a minute. Why play a WoW clone from a smaller company with limited resources when WoW is already out there. No reason to except for a breather as someone mentioned earlier.
So if you want people to play, leave WoW and stay, it has to be something different, fun. Of course doesn't matter where they come from, as long as they play and stay.
Oh, and the classic servers on daoc did rejuvinate the game for a bit. I saw the number increase and I had a blast, but inexorably, people dwindled away. The decline in EQ was mostly because it was just getting dated I think and people were moving on. Also some questionable decisions eventually for end game I've heard. I stopped finally at about the GoD expansion, so I don't know too much what happened after.
I must say, when I went back a few years ago, I was like damn these graphics suck, then after like 2 hours of playing, I didn't notice anymore and it looked good to me. Kind of like a friend that is a girl who is kind of ugly, you get to know her well, and then she starts to look good. It has quality gameplay, but no graphics, but after a while the graphics just don't matter
I've noticed a lot of niche games in development too and that makes me happy since there will be a little variety out there.
I do like that WoW introduced a lot of players into the MMO market, but the way that it hurt the industry is companies just started seeing big $$$ and tried to copy that, turning out garbage. Look at the upcoming SW:TOR. Didn't they say they want to compete with WoW numbers? That makes me a little apprehensive about the type of product coming out.
I think the reason we're seeing more niche MMOs is because people have noticed just cloning WoW isn't really paying off so they want to tap another market that might be more sustainable. Think about it for a minute. Why play a WoW clone from a smaller company with limited resources when WoW is already out there. No reason to except for a breather as someone mentioned earlier.
So if you want people to play, leave WoW and stay, it has to be something different, fun. Of course doesn't matter where they come from, as long as they play and stay.
Oh, and the classic servers on daoc did rejuvinate the game for a bit. I saw the number increase and I had a blast, but inexorably, people dwindled away. The decline in EQ was mostly because it was just getting dated I think and people were moving on. Also some questionable decisions eventually for end game I've heard. I stopped finally at about the GoD expansion, so I don't know too much what happened after.
I must say, when I went back a few years ago, I was like damn these graphics suck, then after like 2 hours of playing, I didn't notice anymore and it looked good to me. Kind of like a friend that is a girl who is kind of ugly, you get to know her well, and then she starts to look good. It has quality gameplay, but no graphics, but after a while the graphics just don't matter
I agree. The genre has to get over the "WoW slump" eventually. When one clone after another fails to meet expectation and/or retain customers, well, that's telling you some thing. I still think there could be some interesting MMOs comming in 2010-2012, but we'll have to wait for more info on most of those games.
I'm still really interested to see what happens in the genre once WoW subs drop down to a normal MMO level. It will happen, probably within the next five years. And, when it does happen, we'll really get to find out where all the players go. Will there be several big MMOs? Will there be a new WoW (I doubt it)? Or, will most of the WoW generation just get bored with the genre?
Really? If its so easy why has no other MMO come close to 1 million subscribers after 3 months? Sorry, LOTRO had no where near 1 million subs even at its highest point(not to mention its more boring than WoW, imo). If it had that many it would've announced it.
WoW is one of a very select few MMOs that actually grows every year. What other MMO can say that after 4 years its still growing? Not EQ or DAoC(whom people try to claim these games declined due to age). EQ cut its on throat with PoP and GoD, and DAoC killed itself with ToA. Too many of you think that anyone can do what WoW did. No western MMO to date has even had a tenth of the subscirbers that WoW has. Let that sink in before you start ranting how easy it "should" be. Its tough to make a good game, and for that good game to stay on top. I hate WoW just as much as the next guy, but they have a winning formula and have stuck to it. SoE and Mythic both failed to stick to their formula. Both companies are guilty of doing a complete 180 on their games.
The problem isn't the devs, either. Its publishers/investors. They are the ones who have to commit all the money. Right now, that's all publishers are interested in. Getting crap out there as cheap and fast as possible. Just like all the PC and console games. We have thousands of games, but rarely is one actually a 9 or 10.
Its going to take another small company like Mythic used to be or CCP. Just look at SOE its creating another WoW clone in The Agency. Even better its free so all the kiddies and mental midgets will be playing it.
WoW had a lot of things going for it when it launched. Some of those exact same things are now working against it but for the most part it's simply riding its own momentum, and I agree, it'll be hard for a small no-name company to break the magic 1 mil barrier, and the AAA companies still seem infatuated with making clones.
When I got tired of WoW and finally quit, I tried EQ2, only to feel like I was four years late to the party that I'd just left, DDO, but the huge amount of instancing turned me off, and I really didn't like how their setting was confined to a single city.
So I tried Eve and even though I wasn't huge into pvp at the time (and remained mostly not into pvp for another year), I was one of those lucky people who pretty much 'got it' right off the bat (the skill system is very similar to an old pen and paper game I used to play called Traveler, so I was pretty much able to wrap my head around it right away) and I've been having a blast ever since, despite the fact that there's no space dragons, spell-slinging mages, levels and xp, or anything else that a fantasy nut like me is used to.
So, in all honesty, I stayed because it's a good game that's not WoW. There are a *lot* of people playing Eve for largely the same reason, and I think MMO devs are making a big mistake by trying to steal WoW's current, for the most party happy, customers, instead of appealing to WoW's former customers would be a lot more willing to try something new. From my own 2+ years in WoW I'm reasonably certain that most people who have ever played WoW have quit - that's a huge, largely untapped market.
I think you misread my post as we are saying almost the same exact things. It wasn't my intention to imply that it is easy to release a good game and get 1 million subscribers. Just the opposite, I was saying the market very much exists for a game to grab large numbers of subscribers, but that hasn't been realized due to rushed incomplete games.
In reference to the original posters comments, I don't think WoW has squashed the market for competition. Both AoC and Warhammer reached roughly a million copies in about 2 months? Much faster than anything before. It is still to early to tell about Warhammer, but those sales numbers show the market potential at least.
You are correct in saying that publishers/investors are a big part of the problem. I'm sure they make live hell for devs and I didn't mean to overlook thier hand in things.
All your points are HELPING the MMO industry, not hurting it. Polish, accessible gameplay and themepark all contribute to BETTER entertainment.
And there is nothing wrong when MMO take the good ideas of SP games and vice versa.
Some people always write something like : 'There will always be players that like different kind of MMO's or niche games'.
The problem however is that the investors behind MMO's dont give a crap about that. With WoW's financial success they all cling to the same MMO mold and go for the in their eyes safe route.
And the few times that a developer starts developing a game that breaks the WoWmould, they have to postpone release into eternity because of lack of funding, or they have to release it into a buggy state. With as result they get flamed into oblivion and we all learned, bad rep can kill a game, even if there is good potential.
Apparently players want a combination of things that cant be done atm : A dev company that finds heavy funding for an original (investors read : not safe) idea OR a dev company that creates an original MMO using low funding, but without bugs and preferable a lot of polish (which needs time=money).
Good luck with that!
I bet there are loads of developers with awesome ideas for new MMO's, but they simply wont find the money to develop it.
EVE is as niche as it gets, and it is doing strong as ever.
All WoW did was make developers get lazy. If a truly amazing niche game comes out, it may not reach WoW numbers, but it will certainly swell with players. Maybe not even immediately, but over time it will happen.
The only thing to me that i have noticed, is that wow didn't perfect the grind, or perfect anything. What they did was massive raise the bar for ease of use. Games like Ryzom i didn't like because combat was much too quick passed for me to even try. At least in the newbie area.
A lot of niche games come out promising the niche, but fail to deliver on the ease of use, thus they flop. AOC has a great niche, but its combat was so clunky and awkward it annoyed the living crap at me. I felt like i was watching my character attack, not that i was attacking.
The key thing for balance though ease of use and exploring. Games like asherons call had a great exploring and almost no direction but is still a blast to just roam around killing stuff. The problem is the ease of use, it is horrible at that.
What we really need, if you want to survive is 3 steps.
1) fine niche
2) make game easy to learn and play (you can still have easy to learn hard to master)
3) ensure that there are difficulty in some aspect (exploring, raid bosses, etc)
if you look at wow, you have the niche of the world of warcraft, with spells and classes and grouping. You have it very easy to learn and play, and you have difficulty in the raid bosses. Where people get bored with it is when they can't get to the raid bosses due to poor guild or what have you.
Niche games will always be my top choice in MMOs no matter what, WOW and its various clones... well you will never see me stoop that low to play those abominations, the features and the game mechanics in thos game make me cringe. People want to play simplifed, solo questing games ? Go ahead like the rest of the sheep who dont know any better and dont know that there is always something out there more challenging and complex waiting to show these lost souls there are other games out there that dont care about 10 mil gold farmers or 36 automated accounts players , these niche games appeal to certain types of players with a taste in certain aspects of MMOs not trying to appease everyone.
Games not just MMOs have all became dumbed down for the kiddies these days, all wanting flashy graphics and bringing no real content to the table (insert game here) example AOC, another one Aion just disguised as another Korean grinder with the ability nothing really new there. Its gotten to the point where I wont even buy games now I download them try them out and then just maybe I might buy it if the replay value is high.
There are people out there that wont touch WOW or its clones with a 10 foot pole, so niche games will never die as long as there is a playerbase for them that want more than just hearing asshat kids and conscending guild leaders dictate their members like tyrants, we will always pick the less popular game cause more than likely its probably 10x better than the POS games everyone else is playing.
No.
What is killing niche mmos?
Easy question.
Developers actually believed fanboys when they said that release is always buggy/lacking content/unbalanced, and that it's acceptable.
It's not.
Why would anyone settle for a game with very little content, buggy, unpolished, and generally trashy feeling mmo, when they could play one with lots of content, not buggy, very polished, and great? Because it's new? That's why WAR and AoC suffered from the dine and ditchers. who play for a month and never come back.
You have to release a mmo ready to duke it out with the already released ones, or you are going to fail.
This isnt 1998 anymore, just being a online game isnt wowzaz new amazingness awesome.
You now have to make a good game.
And frankly I hope the PC marketing as a whole slowly starts realizing it. And stops shoveling out buggy/early releases, just to get them out and then MAYBE patch it?
I do not think releasing a wow clone is safe. People never go for them en'masse and once they realise that the game offers nothing really new compared to the already established polished game they have been playing and have all the characters and social conections already established, they are going to cancel and go back to the original game.
That is the reason no other MMO than wow managed record numbers recently - they all try to appeal to the same populace and steal wow's players, but once the intrigued players come over and try it, and realise there is almost nothing new, they just go back.
Thinking that making a wow clone is a safe bet is wrong, its just that people didn't realise yet.
Making a next big thing will be a combination of innovative approaches to the stale genre, coupled with good funding, most likely from the developers outside the genre who will be able to think outside the established ways, because the current "old" companies prove over and over and over that they are just plain unable to think outside certain, let's call them dogmas.
Here is a short list of what I think are the areas that are the future of the genre:
- player created content
- customisation of the character and impact of the surroundings and the way you play to the look of the character
- quests getting deeper than "bring 10 badger toenails" wrapped in a pretty paper.
- influence of the player on the gameworld and certain events influencing how the world looks like (pre - searing and post searing ascalon in GW )
and many many more,
yet for some reason we are stuck with the formula:
- add 2 or more factions that are unable to win or lose and are stuck in eternal status quo
- add a couple of run-on-the-mill classes
- create a couple of playfields
- add levels
- add a bunch of kill and collect quests
- create a couple of instances and put a boss in the end of them
- add water
et voila - your next MMORPG is created - now go think why your players are not staying.
Don't forget Blizzard had a huge fan base who came from the battle.net service. Warcraft 2 alone had a huge following on battle.net. Their numbers alone made sure WOW was already going to be a huge success with sub numbers. Blizzard made double sure of that by paying attention to a lot of detail with the lore from the RTS games.
Darkfall will release and be the most successful NICHE game in the Universe.
Everyone is allowed to dream.
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You wouldn't understand
Everyone is allowed to dream.
I"m sure it will rock when it comes out, i mean we have seen all that player created videos, and leaked info. Dont forget that they update their site daily with new content for people to read. And have you seen their website, top notch!
My fav is still when they produced that very shitty first EQ looking video showing "gameplay" where everyone ran up to each other, stood still and smacked each other in the most shitty graphics i've seen, followed by them saying "we put it on shitty graphics on purpose".
My personal hope is that spellborn will come through. Their classes aren't the classic classes, you dont have the target and spam buttons. If you stand toe to toe you will die. Oh, and mobs do more than just run at their target, these mobs actually dodge and plan attacks.