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What do other Devs think of DF?
I was wondering how other developers view DF and its odd development history. Does anyone know? All those developers who are regularly ridiculed on this forum for producing 'cookie-cutter' games, but actually have a portfolio of finished work. A lot of posters on here seem to think they know what's involved with producing an MMO but contradict each other, perhaps to support their agenda. But it would be interesting to know what actual developers think of things such as this DF 'beta' phase and their claims generally.
Comments
As a 10+ year veteran of commercial software development, I'd say that what you've seen with Darkfall's development history is a peek inside how software development actually works. Specifically, the fact it takes a long time, there are long periods when only infrastructure and internal systems are being developed and honed and there is little to talk about, the shifting goalposts of features and product completeness, etc. It's been very refreshing for me at least to see Aventurine's approach as i can relate it to my own experiences of working in both small and larger companies, especially when contrasted with the hype and controlled PR approaches of most of todays game developers.
Reading the clueless hate posts/whines/trolls of random non-developers is really amusing, and really the only thing that keeps me following this forum.
Yeah I agree totally. I get a huge kick out of the posts in this section as most don't have a clue what goes into producing a software project of this scope. I haven't posted much in here mainly because all of the warnings I've gotten on this site have come from my posts in this section even though I post no differently here than anywhere else on this site. This section is a troll cesspool and it's the only place on this site where the trolls can get regular members like me warned or even banned for just posting their thoughts. All should be warned that posting in this section can get you warnings even for the most innocent of posts if they are made in a troll dominated thread. This constitutes about 95% of the threads in this section.
I do however still read this section on a regular basis as it provides a multitude of entertainment possibilities. As someone who has a Computer Science degree and has worked on large software projects in the past I find the mindless banter in this section most amusing. At least some of the posters here (Trolls mostly) have no clue what-so-ever what it takes even to see a medium sized project fully realized and out for end-user productivity.
Edit: Oh and I can imagine that most other developers are watching Darkfall's development with mild bemusement. Not because it's taking so long but because of all of the banter that it's generating on forums like this one.
Bren
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beat();
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Mostly that.
And it's fun to rile up the fanbois to the point of no return... ask them questions, watch them respond, ask a followup and watch them leave it blank.
The problem then becomes that they've become evangelical on the topic instead of excited... nothing can be other then as they imagine it. So it's fun to watch them bounce off the walls to protect "the image", become quite a hobby of a few friends and myself.
That said I'll probably play it to try it. I try EVERY game (and by try I mean I PreOrder the Collectors), never know when you'll find inspiration on what to, or not to, do.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Mostly that.
And it's fun to rile up the fanbois to the point of no return... ask them questions, watch them respond, ask a followup and watch them leave it blank.
The problem then becomes that they've become evangelical on the topic instead of excited... nothing can be other then as they imagine it. So it's fun to watch them bounce off the walls to protect "the image", become quite a hobby of a few friends and myself.
That said I'll probably play it to try it. I try EVERY game (and by try I mean I PreOrder the Collectors), never know when you'll find inspiration on what to, or not to, do.
careful hoss, the preceding posters are self confessed fanbois. If you look at their post history, they love flaming, personal attacks, and picking fights.
Nothing out of the ordinary for the fanbois though.
thanks for taking the time to bitch and moan about your experiences on the darkfall forums, after this is what the post subject is about.
Also, thanks for taking the time to take a shot at anyone who doesn't develop software, I hope you feel smart now, much appreciated.
In regards to the original post..
The people on these forums (that aren't developers, like myself) do not know what it takes to develop a game. We do, however, know what it takes to sell a game, after all WE are the market. When you look at almost every game being developed by any big name (or even little names) we see a time line of events, progression from "just an idea" to a full fledged box on the shelves, but, this time line is not 8 years long. We usually see this sort of fuition within 3-4 years time span. So, it's not a matter of no knowing the development cycle, it's a matter of no knowing why darkfall isn't sticking to the typical development cycle. Hell, anyone who thinks you can pop out ANY sort of 100 million mathmatical calculation per second machine in under a year.. and have that same thing interact with another program.. IS NUTS.
"Luckily I know that while you make nonsnese baiting threads that get locked....threads I make get sticked by the mods on this forum...." -imbant (greatest board warrior EVER)
Darkfall Countdown: http://darkfallreleasedate.com/
All software development works just like Darkfall? Seriously? Like the Vista release was developed exactly like Darkfall, and so was WAR?
I'm not Richard Garriott or Brad McCaid, and I'm certainly no Tasos (as far as you know), but I don't think that's entirely accurate.
I’ve seen many people with varied credentials in the industry comment on Darkfall and its development over the last 7+ years.
But nearly all professionals apart from a few exceptions don’t make direct public criticisms or allegations.
You have to read their personal comments and opinions on less public blog’s, forums and personal websites when they are not speaking officially as representatives of their employers or their projects.
The best one could say about the majority of these comments would be sympathetic but sceptical .
You have to bear in mind that this game and its company are virtually unknown and get very little attention in the first place anyway , so the majority of the people involved within the industry don’t even know it exists or care.
All software development works just like Darkfall? Seriously? Like the Vista release was developed exactly like Darkfall, and so was WAR?
I'm not Richard Garriott or Brad McCaid, and I'm certainly no Tasos (as far as you know), but I don't think that's entirely accurate.
That’s because you are a clueless whining non-dev troll hater that has no clue what goes into producing a software project of this scope.
All software development works just like Darkfall? Seriously? Like the Vista release was developed exactly like Darkfall, and so was WAR?
I'm not Richard Garriott or Brad McCaid, and I'm certainly no Tasos (as far as you know), but I don't think that's entirely accurate.
That’s because you are a clueless whining non-dev troll hater that has no clue what goes into producing a software project of this scope.
Well why don't you enlighten me, and tell me what I'm missing, and how the development of WAR and Vista is exactly like the development of Darkfall? If not, then I guess you don't know what goes into producing a software project of this scope either.
Ye i have no clue either
but i do agree that other companys seem to be better experienced at selling thier game than these lot. Not saying it's thier fault or anything as it's not, just saying they might have benefitted from a little research that's all 
But is there anyone here with any real credentials that can comment.
Oh ye i have worked on many big games that you might recognise and have 25 years experience in the the programming industry. i also have 5 shuttle missions and have landed on the moon 3 times so far! once i wasnt wearing a helmet so i had to jump back on the shuttle fast though.
All software development works just like Darkfall? Seriously? Like the Vista release was developed exactly like Darkfall, and so was WAR?
I'm not Richard Garriott or Brad McCaid, and I'm certainly no Tasos (as far as you know), but I don't think that's entirely accurate.
Yeah I'm going to have to agree with Ihmotepp on this one.
Just taking the MMO genre... I can't think of a single other MMO game that has had a similar development approach as DarkFall.
It remains to be seen if their approach worked for them or not, but that isn't really the point of your statement.
To say that DarkFall's development history is a good example or a "peek inside" how software development works... just seems odd. For one thing, how much do we really know what transpired with the development of DarkFall?
We know they do very little advertising.
We know they eschew mainstream media in favor of local media outlets.
Beyond that... it gets a bit fuzzy. Anyway, just found the statement odd is all.
The development reminds me of Dark & Light with a little Roma Victor and Age of Conan mixed in.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
All software development works just like Darkfall? Seriously? Like the Vista release was developed exactly like Darkfall, and so was WAR?
I'm not Richard Garriott or Brad McCaid, and I'm certainly no Tasos (as far as you know), but I don't think that's entirely accurate.
That’s because you are a clueless whining non-dev troll hater that has no clue what goes into producing a software project of this scope.
Well why don't you enlighten me, and tell me what I'm missing, and how the development of WAR and Vista is exactly like the development of Darkfall? If not, then I guess you don't know what goes into producing a software project of this scope either.
Dude - sarcasm, FTW.
As a former pro myself, I tend to think they are relying too much on simulations and synthetic testing, but I am old school.
All software development works just like Darkfall? Seriously? Like the Vista release was developed exactly like Darkfall, and so was WAR?
I'm not Richard Garriott or Brad McCaid, and I'm certainly no Tasos (as far as you know), but I don't think that's entirely accurate.
That’s because you are a clueless whining non-dev troll hater that has no clue what goes into producing a software project of this scope.
Well why don't you enlighten me, and tell me what I'm missing, and how the development of WAR and Vista is exactly like the development of Darkfall? If not, then I guess you don't know what goes into producing a software project of this scope either.
Damn you got me.
I am also a clueless whining non-dev troll hater that has no clue what goes into producing a software project of this scope either.
Perhaps a 10+ year veteran of commercial software development or someone who is not clueless about what goes into producing software projects of this scope could enlighten us.
(The actual developers of Darkfall excluded of course.)
thanks for taking the time to bitch and moan about your experiences on the darkfall forums, after this is what the post subject is about.
Also, thanks for taking the time to take a shot at anyone who doesn't develop software, I hope you feel smart now, much appreciated.
In regards to the original post..
The people on these forums (that aren't developers, like myself) do not know what it takes to develop a game. We do, however, know what it takes to sell a game, after all WE are the market. When you look at almost every game being developed by any big name (or even little names) we see a time line of events, progression from "just an idea" to a full fledged box on the shelves, but, this time line is not 8 years long. We usually see this sort of fuition within 3-4 years time span. So, it's not a matter of no knowing the development cycle, it's a matter of no knowing why darkfall isn't sticking to the typical development cycle. Hell, anyone who thinks you can pop out ANY sort of 100 million mathmatical calculation per second machine in under a year.. and have that same thing interact with another program.. IS NUTS.
I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post, except this one key statement (highlighted). I strongly suspect (though I have very little data to back it up mind you) that "WE" are not typical of the market. What I've found at MMORPG over the years are the extreme ends of the spectrum... the lovers and the haters... the fanbois and the trolls. I suspect that we are probably just the most vocal, but not necessarly the majority.
The reality is that the millions of people who play MMO's are not all active participants in these forums (not specifically Darkfall, but this site in general). The millions of people who play MMO's aren't as extreme in their views, and probably don't really care as much as we do about how long a product took to develop, whether or not the developers used a waterfall or agile development style, etc. They also don't care as much as we do about unfulfilled promises to be honest. What I think they care most about is this: when the game finally does launch, whenever that might be, is it (1) fun and (2) relatively stable/bug-free.
Notice I haven't stated anywhere whether or not I'm a fan of Darkfall in this post... it doesn't really matter... launch day will decide if this title winds up being succesful or not...
Good topic.
I think a more precise question would be to ask what other *MMORPG* developers think. I'm not a professional software engineer (not anything even remotely close) but I have known a LOT of professional software engineers very well over the last 20 years - from engineers who write software for Space Shuttle hardware to low-level coders for WoW, and everything in between.
Even though I am not an expert in the field, I am confident enough in what I've seen and been told over the years to say that MMO development is like no other kind of software when it comes to testing. There's no way to duplicate having thousands of people connect to your servers and use the software simultaneously and interactively with other users.
In other words, there is only so much you can do "internally" with an MMO. Until the public gets its hands on the client you really have no idea how much more work you'll need to do.
This is why I am so skeptical of Aventurine's claims of the advanced state of Darkfall's readiness and plans to release in 2008. If you take them at their word, then you see that only a handful of non-devs have ever had their hands on the client and that testing (in MMO terms) appears to be in a mid-to-late Alpha phase at best.
I have always hoped for DF to become a reality, but I see there are 42 days left in the year and the public still isn't playing or even massively testing the game, yet the claim remains that they will release in 2008. I just don't see how it's possible.
Don’t neglect the possibility that the release date never was possible and the developers were well aware of this when they made it.
Whether or not this game does launch in 2008, Tasos’s marketing, promotional and community building activities have been very successful this year probably the most successful in the company’s history.
Not to mention the:
Publishing contract with AVE
Some kind of agreement with GNi for server hosting and other associated services.
And over 100k new community board members.
Whether or not Darkfall launches this year or even starts open beta, things are certainly looking up for Aventurine for the short term at least.
Unless of course this is going to be another one of those say nothing until the absolute last minute and then suddenly dumb the turd you’ve been hyping and attempting to polish for years type situation.
I am not a developer but I want to comment on this anyway.
I don't think that the Darkfall game development process is much different than most other games except maybe that it's taken a couple of years longer, which is only 25% extra.
What it does show is that one of the most difficult aspects of developing entertainment software is managing the expectations of the general public. I think Blizzard has said recently that this is the most difficult part of the process.
Aventurine doesn't seem to pay much attention to this so we have a situation where a large amount of people who are unable to appreciate how things actually operate behind the scenes are not having their perceptions managed in a fashion in which they feel comfortable. This has resulted in some extreme reactions from some people who follow the game, both for and against.
Experienced devs or companies with professional PR departments are skilled at closeting outsiders from the actual development process and creating a sedate environment for observers outside of the company.
This is the reason why on a typical entertainment software project the head of PR is the highest paid person involved.
Mostly that.
And it's fun to rile up the fanbois to the point of no return... ask them questions, watch them respond, ask a followup and watch them leave it blank.
The problem then becomes that they've become evangelical on the topic instead of excited... nothing can be other then as they imagine it. So it's fun to watch them bounce off the walls to protect "the image", become quite a hobby of a few friends and myself.
That said I'll probably play it to try it. I try EVERY game (and by try I mean I PreOrder the Collectors), never know when you'll find inspiration on what to, or not to, do.
careful hoss, the preceding posters are self confessed fanbois. If you look at their post history, they love flaming, personal attacks, and picking fights.
Nothing out of the ordinary for the fanbois though.
you onyl see me attack people like tenspotting but i try not to but he just pisses me off acken your just extremly skiptic fine but try to keep your opinions as opinions
I'm more interested to know what other developers, or even what the people who finance these games are thinking IF Darkfall goes live and is a big success. You have these big developers who used huge sums of money for advertizing, have hundreds of professionals working for their game and still fail big time. And then you have this tiny team of nobodies who take maybe the biggest challenge the MMO genre has ever seen, and just like that make it a reality.
That's one of the reasons I hope they succeed, even if I wasn't interested in playing the game I would cross my fingers for their success.
All software development works just like Darkfall? Seriously? Like the Vista release was developed exactly like Darkfall, and so was WAR?
I'm not Richard Garriott or Brad McCaid, and I'm certainly no Tasos (as far as you know), but I don't think that's entirely accurate.
That’s because you are a clueless whining non-dev troll hater that has no clue what goes into producing a software project of this scope.
IM not a software developer, but i have tested quite a few games, but it dosen't take a software developer to figure out that something is a bit off with how they are going about developing this game. Maybe its just how they do things in Greece, IDK.
This game has been in development longer than I have been playing MMO's and Ive been playing for 6 years. Maybe they are trying to set the new standard of 7or 8 years of development for games. But needless to say, If I was interested in this game at all if I was around the MMO scene when this was first announced I would have already lost interest.
Yes, they usually sound like this "As a veteran who has played MMO's for XX amount of years". Somehow they feel this makes them an authority on creating games. Just because you can eat a dozen pies, does not mean you invented them.
Watch Led Zeppelin, Darkfall Tribute
Watch Johnny Cash, Darkfall Tribute
All software development works just like Darkfall? Seriously? Like the Vista release was developed exactly like Darkfall, and so was WAR?
I'm not Richard Garriott or Brad McCaid, and I'm certainly no Tasos (as far as you know), but I don't think that's entirely accurate.
That’s because you are a clueless whining non-dev troll hater that has no clue what goes into producing a software project of this scope.
IM not a software developer, but i have tested quite a few games, but it dosen't take a software developer to figure out that something is a bit off with how they are going about developing this game. Pretty much everything about the the development has been different than what most companies do. Maybe its just how they do things in Greece, IDK.
This game has been in development longer than I have been playing MMO's and Ive been playing for 6 years. Maybe they are trying to set the new standard of 7or 8 years of development for games. But needless to say, If I was interested in this game at all if I was around the MMO scene when this was first announced I would have already lost interest.
I have to point out that there is very little PR or announcements to the general public as a whole.
A few websites and forums that cater to a select group of the genre are all that exist.
Now... if television commercials or banners were all over the place, then i'd agree they screwed up big time and people should lose interest.
All software development works just like Darkfall? Seriously? Like the Vista release was developed exactly like Darkfall, and so was WAR?
I'm not Richard Garriott or Brad McCaid, and I'm certainly no Tasos (as far as you know), but I don't think that's entirely accurate.
That’s because you are a clueless whining non-dev troll hater that has no clue what goes into producing a software project of this scope.
Well why don't you enlighten me, and tell me what I'm missing, and how the development of WAR and Vista is exactly like the development of Darkfall? If not, then I guess you don't know what goes into producing a software project of this scope either.
Damn you got me.
I am also a clueless whining non-dev troll hater that has no clue what goes into producing a software project of this scope either.
Perhaps a 10+ year veteran of commercial software development or someone who is not clueless about what goes into producing software projects of this scope could enlighten us.
(The actual developers of Darkfall excluded of course.)
Apology accepted. We all make mistakes.
There was some back and forth between Tasos and a AoC dev/rep not too long ago (within 2008).
Basically pre-launch AoC Tasos called them out on their game mechanics and how it sucked...and the AoC guy came back and ripped on DF vs AoC about how their game was going great and is going to release soon while DF isnt or something like that.
Well we all know how that turned out....with DF having a good chance to pull in more subs than a giant from a company like Funcom!
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos