Yeah I agree totally. I get a huge kick out of the posts in this section as most don't have a clue what goes into producing a software project of this scope. I haven't posted much in here mainly because all of the warnings I've gotten on this site have come from my posts in this section even though I post no differently here than anywhere else on this site. This section is a troll cesspool and it's the only place on this site where the trolls can get regular members like me warned or even banned for just posting their thoughts. All should be warned that posting in this section can get you warnings even for the most innocent of posts if they are made in a troll dominated thread. This constitutes about 95% of the threads in this section.
I do however still read this section on a regular basis as it provides a multitude of entertainment possibilities. As someone who has a Computer Science degree and has worked on large software projects in the past I find the mindless banter in this section most amusing. At least some of the posters here (Trolls mostly) have no clue what-so-ever what it takes even to see a medium sized project fully realized and out for end-user productivity.
Edit: Oh and I can imagine that most other developers are watching Darkfall's development with mild bemusement. Not because it's taking so long but because of all of the banter that it's generating on forums like this one.
Bren
thanks for taking the time to bitch and moan about your experiences on the darkfall forums, after this is what the post subject is about.
Also, thanks for taking the time to take a shot at anyone who doesn't develop software, I hope you feel smart now, much appreciated.
In regards to the original post..
The people on these forums (that aren't developers, like myself) do not know what it takes to develop a game. We do, however, know what it takes to sell a game, after all WE are the market. When you look at almost every game being developed by any big name (or even little names) we see a time line of events, progression from "just an idea" to a full fledged box on the shelves, but, this time line is not 8 years long. We usually see this sort of fuition within 3-4 years time span. So, it's not a matter of no knowing the development cycle, it's a matter of no knowing why darkfall isn't sticking to the typical development cycle. Hell, anyone who thinks you can pop out ANY sort of 100 million mathmatical calculation per second machine in under a year.. and have that same thing interact with another program.. IS NUTS.
I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post, except this one key statement (highlighted). I strongly suspect (though I have very little data to back it up mind you) that "WE" are not typical of the market. What I've found at MMORPG over the years are the extreme ends of the spectrum... the lovers and the haters... the fanbois and the trolls. I suspect that we are probably just the most vocal, but not necessarly the majority.
The reality is that the millions of people who play MMO's are not all active participants in these forums (not specifically Darkfall, but this site in general). The millions of people who play MMO's aren't as extreme in their views, and probably don't really care as much as we do about how long a product took to develop, whether or not the developers used a waterfall or agile development style, etc. They also don't care as much as we do about unfulfilled promises to be honest. What I think they care most about is this: when the game finally does launch, whenever that might be, is it (1) fun and (2) relatively stable/bug-free.
Notice I haven't stated anywhere whether or not I'm a fan of Darkfall in this post... it doesn't really matter... launch day will decide if this title winds up being succesful or not...
I guess I should clarify..
Not We, the forum readers, WE the non-development community.
"Luckily I know that while you make nonsnese baiting threads that get locked....threads I make get sticked by the mods on this forum...." -imbant (greatest board warrior EVER) Darkfall Countdown: http://darkfallreleasedate.com/
Originally posted by Blodpls I don't think that the Darkfall game development process is much different than most other games except maybe that it's taken a couple of years longer, which is only 25% extra.
Not only are you not a developer.. but you are also not a math expert..
Darkfall Development time =8 years.
Average game development time = x
100%X (or X) +25%X (or .25X) = 8 years
125% of x = 8 years. Lets solve for X..
x = 6.4 years = 6 years, 4 months, and 26 days.
So, I conclude, that your original statement is incorrect.
I would say that it takes Darkfall 100% longer than the Averge development time (or twice as long)
"Luckily I know that while you make nonsnese baiting threads that get locked....threads I make get sticked by the mods on this forum...." -imbant (greatest board warrior EVER) Darkfall Countdown: http://darkfallreleasedate.com/
There was some back and forth between Tasos and a AoC dev/rep not too long ago (within 2008). Basically pre-launch AoC Tasos called them out on their game mechanics and how it sucked...and the AoC guy came back and ripped on DF vs AoC about how their game was going great and is going to release soon while DF isnt or something like that. Well we all know how that turned out....with DF having a good chance to pull in more subs than a giant from a company like Funcom!
Got a link for this? Would like to read this myself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Self-confessed DF fanboy. Finally a real ****ing MMO.
As a director of a small software company that builds data management systems for small to medium companies I can readily understand the frustrating longevity of developement cycles but 8 years does seem an inordinately long time to develope a game. However, I have no experience on game developement cycles and one would imagine they can be tough as the market is constantly changing from the users point of view and the technology available.
It would be a coup for Darfall to launch and succeed, and whether you like it or not it would be a great signpost that a small developement house can do it.
considering that Aventurine has nothing to gain from having this game as vapourware, i dont understand why people still think it is vapourware. seriously.
DF will hopefully release, either in late 08 or Q1 09 (They never officially said 08 release, just beta ends in december.)
Originally posted by Blodpls I don't think that the Darkfall game development process is much different than most other games except maybe that it's taken a couple of years longer, which is only 25% extra.
Not only are you not a developer.. but you are also not a math expert..
Darkfall Development time =8 years.
Average game development time = x
100%X (or X) +25%X (or .25X) = 8 years
125% of x = 8 years. Lets solve for X..
x = 6.4 years = 6 years, 4 months, and 26 days.
So, I conclude, that your original statement is incorrect.
I would say that it takes Darkfall 100% longer than the Averge development time (or twice as long)
This game has only been in development since around 2003ish. Razorwax was developing a different game with the same name before but it was scrapped.
World of Warcraft took five years to develop anyway, so it's not exactly unusual.
What you obviously don't understand is that these are games normally in development for quite a while before they are ever announced to avoid situations like what Darkfall is going through.
If you are going to insist it started in 2000 then the same can be said for Warhammer Online which was also started in 2000 and was subsequently scrapped and taken over by a different company, this is the exact same situation. In this case 8 year dev time is the norm.
I was wondering how other developers view DF and its odd development history. Does anyone know? All those developers who are regularly ridiculed on this forum for producing 'cookie-cutter' games, but actually have a portfolio of finished work. A lot of posters on here seem to think they know what's involved with producing an MMO but contradict each other, perhaps to support their agenda. But it would be interesting to know what actual developers think of things such as this DF 'beta' phase and their claims generally.
I'm not a game developer, but I am a programmer (or software engineer as we call ourselves these days). I would like to address this question, even though you're more interested in hearing from MMO* developers.
Two things strike me about Darkfall. The first is the promises of beta (2003, 2005) that never materialized. This could simply be a sign of an overly enthusiastic marketing staff, but it's important to maintain a professional appearance, and blowing deadlines doesn't do that.
The second thing that strikes me about Darkfall is that I feel the developers are grossly underestimating the amount of time it takes to debug any large project. The debugging phase truly is the most time-consuming phase of a project, at least for me. Development is a piece of cake, debugging is HARD.
thanks for taking the time to bitch and moan about your experiences on the darkfall forums, after this is what the post subject is about. Also, thanks for taking the time to take a shot at anyone who doesn't develop software, I hope you feel smart now, much appreciated.
Nowhere in my post did I insult anyone or call them stupid as you claim. Saying someone is ignorant on one subject is far from calling them stupid. If my post came off that way to you I apologize as that was not my intent.
Edit: Yes, after rereading my original post my language was rather harsh. Sorry for that but like I said it was not my main intent for the post to insult the non-developer community by anything I said. My comments were more pointed toward the trolls that infest this section on both sides of the fence... Haters and Fanboys alike who just spout nonsense to try and stir up crap.
Comments
I'm sure all the inept programmers and managers are cheering Darkfall.
thanks for taking the time to bitch and moan about your experiences on the darkfall forums, after this is what the post subject is about.
Also, thanks for taking the time to take a shot at anyone who doesn't develop software, I hope you feel smart now, much appreciated.
In regards to the original post..
The people on these forums (that aren't developers, like myself) do not know what it takes to develop a game. We do, however, know what it takes to sell a game, after all WE are the market. When you look at almost every game being developed by any big name (or even little names) we see a time line of events, progression from "just an idea" to a full fledged box on the shelves, but, this time line is not 8 years long. We usually see this sort of fuition within 3-4 years time span. So, it's not a matter of no knowing the development cycle, it's a matter of no knowing why darkfall isn't sticking to the typical development cycle. Hell, anyone who thinks you can pop out ANY sort of 100 million mathmatical calculation per second machine in under a year.. and have that same thing interact with another program.. IS NUTS.
I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post, except this one key statement (highlighted). I strongly suspect (though I have very little data to back it up mind you) that "WE" are not typical of the market. What I've found at MMORPG over the years are the extreme ends of the spectrum... the lovers and the haters... the fanbois and the trolls. I suspect that we are probably just the most vocal, but not necessarly the majority.
The reality is that the millions of people who play MMO's are not all active participants in these forums (not specifically Darkfall, but this site in general). The millions of people who play MMO's aren't as extreme in their views, and probably don't really care as much as we do about how long a product took to develop, whether or not the developers used a waterfall or agile development style, etc. They also don't care as much as we do about unfulfilled promises to be honest. What I think they care most about is this: when the game finally does launch, whenever that might be, is it (1) fun and (2) relatively stable/bug-free.
Notice I haven't stated anywhere whether or not I'm a fan of Darkfall in this post... it doesn't really matter... launch day will decide if this title winds up being succesful or not...
I guess I should clarify..
Not We, the forum readers, WE the non-development community.
"Luckily I know that while you make nonsnese baiting threads that get locked....threads I make get sticked by the mods on this forum...." -imbant (greatest board warrior EVER)
Darkfall Countdown: http://darkfallreleasedate.com/
Not only are you not a developer.. but you are also not a math expert..
Darkfall Development time =8 years.
Average game development time = x
100%X (or X) +25%X (or .25X) = 8 years
125% of x = 8 years. Lets solve for X..
x = 6.4 years = 6 years, 4 months, and 26 days.
So, I conclude, that your original statement is incorrect.
I would say that it takes Darkfall 100% longer than the Averge development time (or twice as long)
"Luckily I know that while you make nonsnese baiting threads that get locked....threads I make get sticked by the mods on this forum...." -imbant (greatest board warrior EVER)
Darkfall Countdown: http://darkfallreleasedate.com/
Got a link for this? Would like to read this myself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Self-confessed DF fanboy. Finally a real ****ing MMO.
As a director of a small software company that builds data management systems for small to medium companies I can readily understand the frustrating longevity of developement cycles but 8 years does seem an inordinately long time to develope a game. However, I have no experience on game developement cycles and one would imagine they can be tough as the market is constantly changing from the users point of view and the technology available.
It would be a coup for Darfall to launch and succeed, and whether you like it or not it would be a great signpost that a small developement house can do it.
considering that Aventurine has nothing to gain from having this game as vapourware, i dont understand why people still think it is vapourware. seriously.
DF will hopefully release, either in late 08 or Q1 09 (They never officially said 08 release, just beta ends in december.)
DARKFALL 09!
Apparently 08 didn't make it
Sorros of Forumfall.
Not only are you not a developer.. but you are also not a math expert..
Darkfall Development time =8 years.
Average game development time = x
100%X (or X) +25%X (or .25X) = 8 years
125% of x = 8 years. Lets solve for X..
x = 6.4 years = 6 years, 4 months, and 26 days.
So, I conclude, that your original statement is incorrect.
I would say that it takes Darkfall 100% longer than the Averge development time (or twice as long)
This game has only been in development since around 2003ish. Razorwax was developing a different game with the same name before but it was scrapped.
World of Warcraft took five years to develop anyway, so it's not exactly unusual.
What you obviously don't understand is that these are games normally in development for quite a while before they are ever announced to avoid situations like what Darkfall is going through.
If you are going to insist it started in 2000 then the same can be said for Warhammer Online which was also started in 2000 and was subsequently scrapped and taken over by a different company, this is the exact same situation. In this case 8 year dev time is the norm.
I'm not a game developer, but I am a programmer (or software engineer as we call ourselves these days). I would like to address this question, even though you're more interested in hearing from MMO* developers.
Two things strike me about Darkfall. The first is the promises of beta (2003, 2005) that never materialized. This could simply be a sign of an overly enthusiastic marketing staff, but it's important to maintain a professional appearance, and blowing deadlines doesn't do that.
The second thing that strikes me about Darkfall is that I feel the developers are grossly underestimating the amount of time it takes to debug any large project. The debugging phase truly is the most time-consuming phase of a project, at least for me. Development is a piece of cake, debugging is HARD.
Nowhere in my post did I insult anyone or call them stupid as you claim. Saying someone is ignorant on one subject is far from calling them stupid. If my post came off that way to you I apologize as that was not my intent.
Edit: Yes, after rereading my original post my language was rather harsh. Sorry for that but like I said it was not my main intent for the post to insult the non-developer community by anything I said. My comments were more pointed toward the trolls that infest this section on both sides of the fence... Haters and Fanboys alike who just spout nonsense to try and stir up crap.
Bren
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