What's "natural" about it is that this is the way real life works. If you want to get better at something, you have to practice it... usually by repetitive action, as it turns out. I personally don't find this particularly "fun" but it is nonetheless realistic.
I disagree. It's not realistic at all.
Imagine any actvity that requires lots of practice. The Practice is boring repetition, not real performance.
If you area boxer, you don't practice by having real boxing matches. You get in a sparring ring and practice, and you hit a bag over and over.
If you are going deer hunting, you don't get good by simply running off into the woods and shooting at deer over and over. You go to a range, and shoot targets, over and over.
If you are going to be a ballet dancer, you don't just get on stage till audiences like you, you go to a studio and dance in front of a mirror over and over.
If you want to be a good race car driver, you practice going around and around the track with no cars, before you enter a real race. You don't just start racing, and get good while you're racing.
So no, there's nothing "natural" about getting good doing something without boring practice, which is how things work in the real world.
The boring practice is where you get good, but you're not saying that's in the game, you're saying you get good while in the act, not "practice". Again, very unnatural.
But that's ok, because games aren't supposed to be "natural" they['re supposed to be fun. If they were like real life, our characters would have to go to the bathroom every so often. That would be very natural.
I think now you're just getting into semantics. Aventurine is attempting to create a realistic environment, within which you improve your skills by using them repeatedly, but still within the context of a computer game. Yes you're right, the essence of improvement comes from drilling simple activities (or indeed from being taught by someone, something I'm not aware of MMO games having really touched on yet). But this is still the same basic concept, that of doing something to get better at that thing.
By contrast, the system you prefer (and I'm not saying it's better or worse, just different) is completely abstract - which of your skills you use doesn't need to have any bearing whatsoever to which of your skills are improving. This is completely unrealistic. Not inferior (in my opinion anyway), but without even a tenuous link to the real world. Fact is, Aventurine are committed to implementing the former system in Darkfall, and that's not going to change. Unless they decide to scrap the whole thing and start again.
Again.
In the real world, we get better at things by boring repetition, called "practice".
My system isn't "abstract". It's straight out of most Paper n Pencil roleplaying games.
You fight tons of bad guys, monsters, etc. Now you have enough money and experience to train to the next level, gain the next skill. You decide to get better with the bow, so you go to a monastery where Kung Fu Moncks train you for months in the art of becoming one with the bow, which is represented by how many skill points you spend on bow skill, or leveling up in a class that uses bow. Now, back to adventure....You don't actually spend time shooting targets for months, because it would be "realistic" but boring.
IMo, much more "realistic" than people train to get better at something, but never "practice".
What do you think is happening when you BUY a skill from an NPC in teh first place? How is that so "realistic"?
Originally posted by Ihmotepp There is nothing "natural" about swing sword a bazillion times, and eventually sword skill increases. This is how the Dungeon Siege games worked. Use skill= increase in skill eventually. I would do things like this. One mob pops up from the ground, some kind of worm thing that is immobile, but spits acid at you. Now, my sword skill was pretty high, so I COULD run up to it, and kill it in a couple of sword swings, and that would be that. That would be the sensible thing to do right? But I wanted to raise my bow skill, which was low. So instead of killing the thing in a couple of whacks, I'd shoot 20 arrows into it, so my bow skill would increase. What's "natural" about that? I'd prefer to just hit the creature a couple of times and kill it, but then I'd waste all that use that could be going towards increasing my bow skill. If I had points to spend, I'd whack the creature with my sword, be on my merry way, and when I got some skill points I'd spend them increasing my bow skill, which to me, makes much more sense.
Nothing natural? Are you kidding?
Is it more natural to gain a level by using solely your sword, level up by putting all points in bow mastery, and suddenly you become expert with the bow?
If you want to kill said worm with your sword, kill it with your sword. If you want to get better with your bow, hit it with your bow. I don't understand the unnatural thing you're getting from this.
Besides, in this example, it's good to use your bow, if you want to become good, not only your character, because you also get better, since it's an fps. You get a better feeling of how the bow works, the aim, the leading you must apply to hit your target, etc etc. And I guess the same goes on magic-using.
No, I am not kidding. IMO, this is completely unnatural.
I can kill this mob with one smack of my sword. Why, in a "natural" i.e. realistic setting would I not go ahead and do that. What possible motivation, realistically could I have for not killing a menacing monster as fast as possible?
In a use = skill increase system, instead of killing this mob with one whack of my sword, I might shoot it 20 times with my bow.
Why? Skill increase.
That's natural? Hardly.
Natural is I go to a target range, and if I want to get better at using a bow, I shoot 8 bazillion arrows at targets. I don't "practice" while I'm trying to stay alive. That's silly.
But again, it's a game. If it's fun, then it's fun. If we wanted realism, we could play real life.
Don't believe me? Go find someone that hunts deer with a bow and arrow, and tell them you want to go hunting, but you've never used a bow before. They will send you to the range, not hope you get good practicing shooting at deer and wounding them.
You just focused on the first thing I said and you just discarded the rest? Is that your way of reading other posts and then arguing about them?
ok ok, another example.
Who's better at shooting deers? One that has spent his whole life practicing at shooting, or someone that has actually went out and killed a deer?
Originally posted by Ihmotepp There is nothing "natural" about swing sword a bazillion times, and eventually sword skill increases. This is how the Dungeon Siege games worked. Use skill= increase in skill eventually. I would do things like this. One mob pops up from the ground, some kind of worm thing that is immobile, but spits acid at you. Now, my sword skill was pretty high, so I COULD run up to it, and kill it in a couple of sword swings, and that would be that. That would be the sensible thing to do right? But I wanted to raise my bow skill, which was low. So instead of killing the thing in a couple of whacks, I'd shoot 20 arrows into it, so my bow skill would increase. What's "natural" about that? I'd prefer to just hit the creature a couple of times and kill it, but then I'd waste all that use that could be going towards increasing my bow skill. If I had points to spend, I'd whack the creature with my sword, be on my merry way, and when I got some skill points I'd spend them increasing my bow skill, which to me, makes much more sense.
Nothing natural? Are you kidding?
Is it more natural to gain a level by using solely your sword, level up by putting all points in bow mastery, and suddenly you become expert with the bow?
If you want to kill said worm with your sword, kill it with your sword. If you want to get better with your bow, hit it with your bow. I don't understand the unnatural thing you're getting from this.
Besides, in this example, it's good to use your bow, if you want to become good, not only your character, because you also get better, since it's an fps. You get a better feeling of how the bow works, the aim, the leading you must apply to hit your target, etc etc. And I guess the same goes on magic-using.
No, I am not kidding. IMO, this is completely unnatural.
I can kill this mob with one smack of my sword. Why, in a "natural" i.e. realistic setting would I not go ahead and do that. What possible motivation, realistically could I have for not killing a menacing monster as fast as possible?
In a use = skill increase system, instead of killing this mob with one whack of my sword, I might shoot it 20 times with my bow.
Why? Skill increase.
That's natural? Hardly.
Natural is I go to a target range, and if I want to get better at using a bow, I shoot 8 bazillion arrows at targets. I don't "practice" while I'm trying to stay alive. That's silly.
But again, it's a game. If it's fun, then it's fun. If we wanted realism, we could play real life.
Don't believe me? Go find someone that hunts deer with a bow and arrow, and tell them you want to go hunting, but you've never used a bow before. They will send you to the range, not hope you get good practicing shooting at deer and wounding them.
You just focused on the first thing I said and you just discarded the rest? Is that your way of reading other posts and then arguing about them?
ok ok, another example.
Who's better at shooting deers? One that has spent his whole life practicing at shooting, or someone that has actually went out and killed a deer?
That's the experience factor. That's not how you gain a skill, that's how you learn to implement it to your best advantage.
There's no wrong or right answer. It's just what you prefer, like chocolate or vanilla. If you like chocolate better than vanilla, I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong, because chocolate is more realistic.
If you like to do something over and over to increase the skill, and you think that's fun, nobody can say you're wrong.
I like to spend skill points. To me, it's more realistic, and a lot more fun to build your character, and it doesn't give you incentive to do things over and over just to increase the skill.
I would much rather shoot 8 bazillion arrows, gain skill points, then spend them on my sword swinging skill, if that's the way I want to build my character. Much more freedom in building a character that way.
For me, it's like people that complain about gold pieces dropping when you kill a wolf. I don't need to skin a wolf and get wolf pelts. I can imagine that I found gold pieces near by, from other adventurers that were killed by the wolves. I can use my imagination.
I can imagine that I went some where and practiced in increase my sword swining skills. I don't have to swing a sword 8 bazillion times in the game to be "immersed".
I also like beer with lots of hops, like Samuel Adams Boston Lager, while some people prefer a nice pale ale instead.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp In the real world, we get better at things by boring repetition, called "practice". My system isn't "abstract". It's straight out of most Paper n Pencil roleplaying games. You fight tons of bad guys, monsters, etc. Now you have enough money and experience to train to the next level, gain the next skill. You decide to get better with the bow, so you go to a monastery where Kung Fu Moncks train you for months in the art of becoming one with the bow, which is represented by how many skill points you spend on bow skill, or leveling up in a class that uses bow. Now, back to adventure....You don't actually spend time shooting targets for months, because it would be "realistic" but boring. IMo, much more "realistic" than people train to get better at something, but never "practice". What do you think is happening when you BUY a skill from an NPC in teh first place? How is that so "realistic"?
Ihmotepp you are coming across as clueless as to the real world outside of your own particular environment. What you refer as practice is actually doing the activity in a controlled environment. Not everywhere at all times have such controlled environments existed in order to allow "practice" to take place.
If I were starting a new job as a bricklayer my boss wouldn't make me build practice walls for six months in order to get up to standard. I would practice on the job. Maybe doing less important garden walls to start with but I would be doing the actual task. I wouldn't be able to build walls for six months and then suddenly be able to lay concrete perfectly as a result. Don't talk to me about college courses as that's clearly not how it has always be done, and still isn't everywhere.
If I was a child soldier drafted into a third world army my target practice would be shooting real live enemies in actual real battles, not on a practice range. I would get good at it or I would die. Simple no practice needed.
If I got a job in a abattoir are they going to give me a fake cow to practice on? Nope.
In WWII did all soldier get trained in the use of fire arms? Nope. Some of them didn't even handle one until they looted off the corpse of one of their dead comrades.
I hope you get the point as I could list pages of activities like this.
Practice and doing something for real are the same thing, the only difference is the environment you do it in. In Darkfall you can do what you refer to as practice, duelling or casting spells at brick walls, whatever you want. Personally I will practice in the field as it would boring otherwise.
It is obvious if you thought about it which system is more realistic, if you don't like realism then don't play.
What's "natural" about it is that this is the way real life works. If you want to get better at something, you have to practice it... usually by repetitive action, as it turns out. I personally don't find this particularly "fun" but it is nonetheless realistic.
I disagree. It's not realistic at all.
Imagine any actvity that requires lots of practice. The Practice is boring repetition, not real performance.
If you area boxer, you don't practice by having real boxing matches. You get in a sparring ring and practice, and you hit a bag over and over.
If you are going deer hunting, you don't get good by simply running off into the woods and shooting at deer over and over. You go to a range, and shoot targets, over and over.
If you are going to be a ballet dancer, you don't just get on stage till audiences like you, you go to a studio and dance in front of a mirror over and over.
If you want to be a good race car driver, you practice going around and around the track with no cars, before you enter a real race. You don't just start racing, and get good while you're racing.
So no, there's nothing "natural" about getting good doing something without boring practice, which is how things work in the real world.
The boring practice is where you get good, but you're not saying that's in the game, you're saying you get good while in the act, not "practice". Again, very unnatural.
But that's ok, because games aren't supposed to be "natural" they['re supposed to be fun. If they were like real life, our characters would have to go to the bathroom every so often. That would be very natural.
I think now you're just getting into semantics. Aventurine is attempting to create a realistic environment, within which you improve your skills by using them repeatedly, but still within the context of a computer game. Yes you're right, the essence of improvement comes from drilling simple activities (or indeed from being taught by someone, something I'm not aware of MMO games having really touched on yet). But this is still the same basic concept, that of doing something to get better at that thing.
By contrast, the system you prefer (and I'm not saying it's better or worse, just different) is completely abstract - which of your skills you use doesn't need to have any bearing whatsoever to which of your skills are improving. This is completely unrealistic. Not inferior (in my opinion anyway), but without even a tenuous link to the real world. Fact is, Aventurine are committed to implementing the former system in Darkfall, and that's not going to change. Unless they decide to scrap the whole thing and start again.
Again.
In the real world, we get better at things by boring repetition, called "practice".
My system isn't "abstract". It's straight out of most Paper n Pencil roleplaying games.
You fight tons of bad guys, monsters, etc. Now you have enough money and experience to train to the next level, gain the next skill. You decide to get better with the bow, so you go to a monastery where Kung Fu Moncks train you for months in the art of becoming one with the bow, which is represented by how many skill points you spend on bow skill, or leveling up in a class that uses bow. Now, back to adventure....You don't actually spend time shooting targets for months, because it would be "realistic" but boring.
IMo, much more "realistic" than people train to get better at something, but never "practice".
What do you think is happening when you BUY a skill from an NPC in teh first place? How is that so "realistic"?
I see what you're getting at. The logic of your take on realistic skill progression falls down, however, if you were to apply your skills in reverse. Say your straight-out-of-the-blocks newbie character decides that he wants to be a master of archery but, for some mysterious reason (perhaps he doesn't have a bow, whatever) he goes out and kills a hundred goblins using his sword, then levels and spends all his newfound skill points on the archery he always dreamed of.
According to your reality, this character is now significantly more skilled with the bow than with his sword... in fact he is still only as skilled with a sword as any other newbie character that appears, despite having applied that skill repeatedly and successfully. It's all well and good to say that you imagine he's gone to some monastery to train for a year, but surely during that time he hasn't forgotten how to hold a sword?! And if so, has he then forgotten al his other skills as well?
Like I said, it's an abstract system. Just like P'n'P RPGs.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp That's the experience factor. That's not how you gain a skill, that's how you learn to implement it to your best advantage. There's no wrong or right answer. It's just what you prefer, like chocolate or vanilla. If you like chocolate better than vanilla, I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong, because chocolate is more realistic. If you like to do something over and over to increase the skill, and you think that's fun, nobody can say you're wrong. I like to spend skill points. To me, it's more realistic, and a lot more fun to build your character, and it doesn't give you incentive to do things over and over just to increase the skill. I would much rather shoot 8 bazillion arrows, gain skill points, then spend them on my sword swinging skill, if that's the way I want to build my character. Much more freedom in building a character that way. For me, it's like people that complain about gold pieces dropping when you kill a wolf. I don't need to skin a wolf and get wolf pelts. I can imagine that I found gold pieces near by, from other adventurers that were killed by the wolves. I can use my imagination. I can imagine that I went some where and practiced in increase my sword swining skills. I don't have to swing a sword 8 bazillion times in the game to be "immersed". I also like beer with lots of hops, like Samuel Adams Boston Lager, while some people prefer a nice pale ale instead.
Of course it's the frikkin experience factor. That's the effin gist of the thing. You gain experience when you swing your sword, a.k.a. you're getting better with it. Do you disagree with this? Is it unnatural and unrealistic? Which soldier would you prefer to take in a war with you, one that has fought in one battle, or one that has been in 4-5 ones? Which one would you say it's better?
And then, would you take the selected soldier to pilot a plane because he used his rifle about 8 bazillion times, over a trained pilot?
And in the end, dude, you really need to clear up what you want to argue about. First, you start talking about the skill progression, but in your last post you're talking about how you acquire skills. Then, you're talking about this not being realistic, and you're ending your post by saying that you're using abstract thought when wolves drop gold.
I just notice this today on the official features FAQ, and I think it explains everything. How many skills and spells will Darkfall have? “We currently have about 300 skills and 200 spells designed on paper, but we are hoping to get at least 500 skills and 500 spells in there before retail.” I would not be surprised if most of the other features on this FAQ are also still only in the designed on paper stage.
Basicaly its a wish list that they are hoping to get to before retail, like pretty much any other MMO.
I doubt you missed when Tasos informed us that the game is feature complete?
Polar is one of the most informed posters on these boards. He has done extensive research on this game and informed us of many things we would have never known.
But... As usual, only YOU have all the answers.
Well, we'll all see what answers you have come this January.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp If I had points to spend, I'd whack the creature with my sword, be on my merry way, and when I got some skill points I'd spend them increasing my bow skill, which to me, makes much more sense.
To each their own, I suppose. Sorry about the long posts then, I just assumed you had not played a true skill based system because personally I don't understand why anyone would want anything different. But, there are always different opinions on everything, so I respect your want of a level based system instead of skill based.
Darkfall will not be a level based system though, so no point discussing it any further.
Sorry, but you completely misunderstood me.
I didn't say I wanted a level based system. Skills are fine. I prefer to earn skill points, then choose which skills I will raise, and spend the points on those skills. Similar to Fallout 3 or KOTOR.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp In the real world, we get better at things by boring repetition, called "practice". My system isn't "abstract". It's straight out of most Paper n Pencil roleplaying games. You fight tons of bad guys, monsters, etc. Now you have enough money and experience to train to the next level, gain the next skill. You decide to get better with the bow, so you go to a monastery where Kung Fu Moncks train you for months in the art of becoming one with the bow, which is represented by how many skill points you spend on bow skill, or leveling up in a class that uses bow. Now, back to adventure....You don't actually spend time shooting targets for months, because it would be "realistic" but boring. IMo, much more "realistic" than people train to get better at something, but never "practice". What do you think is happening when you BUY a skill from an NPC in teh first place? How is that so "realistic"?
Ihmotepp you are coming across as clueless as to the real world outside of your own particular environment. What you refer as practice is actually doing the activity in a controlled environment. Not everywhere at all times have such controlled environments existed in order to allow "practice" to take place.
If I were starting a new job as a bricklayer my boss wouldn't make me build practice walls for six months in order to get up to standard. I would practice on the job. Maybe doing less important garden walls to start with but I would be doing the actual task. I wouldn't be able to build walls for six months and then suddenly be able to lay concrete perfectly as a result. Don't talk to me about college courses as that's clearly not how it has always be done, and still isn't everywhere.
If I was a child soldier drafted into a third world army my target practice would be shooting real live enemies in actual real battles, not on a practice range. I would get good at it or I would die. Simple no practice needed.
If I got a job in a abattoir are they going to give me a fake cow to practice on? Nope.
In WWII did all soldier get trained in the use of fire arms? Nope. Some of them didn't even handle one until they looted off the corpse of one of their dead comrades.
I hope you get the point as I could list pages of activities like this.
Practice and doing something for real are the same thing, the only difference is the environment you do it in. In Darkfall you can do what you refer to as practice, duelling or casting spells at brick walls, whatever you want. Personally I will practice in the field as it would boring otherwise.
It is obvious if you thought about it which system is more realistic, if you don't like realism then don't play.
First of all, I hope you are wrong about "practicing" in Darkfall. If that's the case, shoot spell at brick wall, make macro, come back tomorrow when spell skill is maxed out.
It is obvious that people practice to get better at something, n not just go use that skill. If you want realism, then you'd take your sword adn whack on a practice dummy for 8 hours a day to get better.
But, if you think the unrealistic method of gaining skill, recieving skill increases, for using the skill in combat, is fun, I got no problem with that.
Whatever is fun is fun.
It might be a fun game, I don't know till I try it, but you're wasting time trying to convince me an arbitrary game mechanic is more "realistic".
I went and practiced every day for 3 months to get better at shooting my bow. I shot arrows all day long, 7 dayts a week. This is represented by the 3 points I"m spending in bow skill.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp In the real world, we get better at things by boring repetition, called "practice". My system isn't "abstract". It's straight out of most Paper n Pencil roleplaying games. You fight tons of bad guys, monsters, etc. Now you have enough money and experience to train to the next level, gain the next skill. You decide to get better with the bow, so you go to a monastery where Kung Fu Moncks train you for months in the art of becoming one with the bow, which is represented by how many skill points you spend on bow skill, or leveling up in a class that uses bow. Now, back to adventure....You don't actually spend time shooting targets for months, because it would be "realistic" but boring. IMo, much more "realistic" than people train to get better at something, but never "practice". What do you think is happening when you BUY a skill from an NPC in teh first place? How is that so "realistic"?
Ihmotepp you are coming across as clueless as to the real world outside of your own particular environment. What you refer as practice is actually doing the activity in a controlled environment. Not everywhere at all times have such controlled environments existed in order to allow "practice" to take place.
If I were starting a new job as a bricklayer my boss wouldn't make me build practice walls for six months in order to get up to standard. I would practice on the job. Maybe doing less important garden walls to start with but I would be doing the actual task. I wouldn't be able to build walls for six months and then suddenly be able to lay concrete perfectly as a result. Don't talk to me about college courses as that's clearly not how it has always be done, and still isn't everywhere.
If I was a child soldier drafted into a third world army my target practice would be shooting real live enemies in actual real battles, not on a practice range. I would get good at it or I would die. Simple no practice needed.
If I got a job in a abattoir are they going to give me a fake cow to practice on? Nope.
In WWII did all soldier get trained in the use of fire arms? Nope. Some of them didn't even handle one until they looted off the corpse of one of their dead comrades.
I hope you get the point as I could list pages of activities like this.
Practice and doing something for real are the same thing, the only difference is the environment you do it in. In Darkfall you can do what you refer to as practice, duelling or casting spells at brick walls, whatever you want. Personally I will practice in the field as it would boring otherwise.
It is obvious if you thought about it which system is more realistic, if you don't like realism then don't play.
First of all, I hope you are wrong about "practicing" in Darkfall. If that's the case, shoot spell at brick wall, make macro, come back tomorrow when spell skill is maxed out.
It is obvious that people practice to get better at something, n not just go use that skill. If you want realism, then you'd take your sword adn whack on a practice dummy for 8 hours a day to get better.
But, if you think the unrealistic method of gaining skill, recieving skill increases, for using the skill in combat, is fun, I got no problem with that.
Whatever is fun is fun.
It might be a fun game, I don't know till I try it, but you're wasting time trying to convince me an arbitrary game mechanic is more "realistic".
I went and practiced every day for 3 months to get better at shooting my bow. I shot arrows all day long, 7 dayts a week. This is represented by the 3 points I"m spending in bow skill.
Seems much more "realistic" to me.
Answer this question:
Do you think its unrealistic that you get better at handeling a bow, when you have used it for a whole day?
Becouse that is basically what im reading up there (the text marked in red).
Getting better at using a bow by swinging a sword all day is unrealistic. No matter how you turn it. I could buy getting better a bow with skillpoints (that in imagination ment you went to a training place) AND you got better at the sword while using it.
Not getting better at using a sword after swinging it and trying it all day but for some reason getting better at the BOW while doing this is unrealistic, sure with imagination its perfectly viable to use it in a game, but to call it more realistic then the swing-and-skill system is silly.
Wich system is more fun is up to each individual, wont go there...
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp Sorry, but you completely misunderstood me. I didn't say I wanted a level based system. Skills are fine. I prefer to earn skill points, then choose which skills I will raise, and spend the points on those skills. Similar to Fallout 3 or KOTOR. That is not a level system.
No, I completely understood you.
You kill monsters, you gain xp, once you gain enough XP, you gain a level and get skill points to apply to your character. These two games you list as examples are the definition of a level based system.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Originally posted by Ihmotepp Sorry, but you completely misunderstood me. I didn't say I wanted a level based system. Skills are fine. I prefer to earn skill points, then choose which skills I will raise, and spend the points on those skills. Similar to Fallout 3 or KOTOR. That is not a level system.
No, I completely understood you.
You kill monsters, you gain xp, once you gain enough XP, you gain a level and get skill points to apply to your character. These two games you list as examples are the definition of a level based system.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp In the real world, we get better at things by boring repetition, called "practice". My system isn't "abstract". It's straight out of most Paper n Pencil roleplaying games. You fight tons of bad guys, monsters, etc. Now you have enough money and experience to train to the next level, gain the next skill. You decide to get better with the bow, so you go to a monastery where Kung Fu Moncks train you for months in the art of becoming one with the bow, which is represented by how many skill points you spend on bow skill, or leveling up in a class that uses bow. Now, back to adventure....You don't actually spend time shooting targets for months, because it would be "realistic" but boring. IMo, much more "realistic" than people train to get better at something, but never "practice". What do you think is happening when you BUY a skill from an NPC in teh first place? How is that so "realistic"?
Ihmotepp you are coming across as clueless as to the real world outside of your own particular environment. What you refer as practice is actually doing the activity in a controlled environment. Not everywhere at all times have such controlled environments existed in order to allow "practice" to take place.
If I were starting a new job as a bricklayer my boss wouldn't make me build practice walls for six months in order to get up to standard. I would practice on the job. Maybe doing less important garden walls to start with but I would be doing the actual task. I wouldn't be able to build walls for six months and then suddenly be able to lay concrete perfectly as a result. Don't talk to me about college courses as that's clearly not how it has always be done, and still isn't everywhere.
If I was a child soldier drafted into a third world army my target practice would be shooting real live enemies in actual real battles, not on a practice range. I would get good at it or I would die. Simple no practice needed.
If I got a job in a abattoir are they going to give me a fake cow to practice on? Nope.
In WWII did all soldier get trained in the use of fire arms? Nope. Some of them didn't even handle one until they looted off the corpse of one of their dead comrades.
I hope you get the point as I could list pages of activities like this.
Practice and doing something for real are the same thing, the only difference is the environment you do it in. In Darkfall you can do what you refer to as practice, duelling or casting spells at brick walls, whatever you want. Personally I will practice in the field as it would boring otherwise.
It is obvious if you thought about it which system is more realistic, if you don't like realism then don't play.
First of all, I hope you are wrong about "practicing" in Darkfall. If that's the case, shoot spell at brick wall, make macro, come back tomorrow when spell skill is maxed out.
It is obvious that people practice to get better at something, n not just go use that skill. If you want realism, then you'd take your sword adn whack on a practice dummy for 8 hours a day to get better.
But, if you think the unrealistic method of gaining skill, recieving skill increases, for using the skill in combat, is fun, I got no problem with that.
Whatever is fun is fun.
It might be a fun game, I don't know till I try it, but you're wasting time trying to convince me an arbitrary game mechanic is more "realistic".
I went and practiced every day for 3 months to get better at shooting my bow. I shot arrows all day long, 7 dayts a week. This is represented by the 3 points I"m spending in bow skill.
Seems much more "realistic" to me.
Answer this question:
Do you think its unrealistic that you get better at handeling a bow, when you have used it for a whole day?
Becouse that is basically what im reading up there (the text marked in red).
Getting better at using a bow by swinging a sword all day is unrealistic. No matter how you turn it. I could buy getting better a bow with skillpoints (that in imagination ment you went to a training place) AND you got better at the sword while using it.
Not getting better at using a sword after swinging it and trying it all day but for some reason getting better at the BOW while doing this is unrealistic, sure with imagination its perfectly viable to use it in a game, but to call it more realistic then the swing-and-skill system is silly.
Wich system is more fun is up to each individual, wont go there...
No.
This is what happens. I swing my sword all day, for months. I gain a little fame and fortune. Then I decide that I'd like to learn how to handle a bow. So, I hire the best archer in the land to give me private archery lessons. I go to a retreat, and train with him 14 hours a day. He makes me shoot the bow with my eyes closed, behind my back, while he beats me with a stick, at still targets, at moving targets, at coins he throws in the air. He teaches me all the tips and tricks he's learned over a lifetime to become the best archer in the land.
After 3 months of this intense training, I'm now a decent archer.
Do I want to actually shoot a bazillion arrows at a target in the game? Nope. Then what can we do? Well, we just give you some skill points, let you spend them on Bow Skill, and we say this represents the months you spent training.
Since I have an imagination, this seems perfectly "realistic" to me.
But I used to play Paper and Pencil games, so this isn't a new concept. For example, you and your friends tell the Game Master we wish to travel to the town of Deepwater, which is 2 weeks travel from here.
The Game Master says, you travel for 2 weeks, nothing eventful happens, you arrive in Deepwater, and then....
Do you really need the Game Master to say, you walk all day. You camp. You hear birds sing. Next day, you walk all day. You camp. You see a squirrel. Next day, you walk all day, you camp....
For me, that's your, use skill = increase. Shoot your bow, over and over and over and over and over, to increase skill. I'd rather just spend the skill points, and SAY I shot my bow over and over. I don't really need to DO it in the game.
While feature specifics are very important, and I agree with the OP. Ive looked at a few videos and just get the impression, visually, that its old. I looks something like everquest style graphics (though im sure EQ fan's will find that insulting)
looking over the 'feautres' and 'mechanics' along with its visual appeal (lack of), im not sure I see where this mmo fitting into the market.
I know certain guild organisations from EQ, Vanguard and old DaoC players prospecting this game, but they are in the minority.
Even though your example is a PnP game and is in a totally different genre than MMO games. It is STILL a level based game.
I honestly don't know what the big deal is, so what, you like level based games?
"At the end of each play session, the GM should award bonus character points for
good play."
This is EXACTLY like gaining XP for levels in an MMO game.
"Good play" in this example would be gaining enough XP to level, therefore, getting skill points to arbitrarily apply to your character. If someone does something completely out of character during a GURPS game they are not supposed to be awarded any skill points. this would be akin to not gaining enough XP to level.
It's exactly the same, I don't know why you're trying to fight it. So what? You like level based games, why is this such a big deal for you to admit?
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Even though your example is a PnP game and is in a totally different genre than MMO games. It is STILL a level based game.
I honestly don't know what the big deal is, so what, you like level based games?
"At the end of each play session, the GM should award bonus character points for
good play."
This is EXACTLY like gaining XP for levels in an MMO game.
"Good play" in this example would be gaining enough XP to level, therefore, getting skill points to arbitrarily apply to your character. If someone does something completely out of character during a GURPS game they are not supposed to be awarded any skill points. this would be akin to not gaining enough XP to level.
It's exactly the same, I don't know why you're trying to fight it. So what? You like level based games, why is this such a big deal for you to admit?
GURPS has no levels, only skills. ??
If you have skills, and they go up by adding points to the skills, or "using" the skills, how does either one turn the game into a "level based" game?
That makes no sense.
How the skills increase, has nothing to do with whether you use skills or levels. ???
ARe you saying Star Wars Galaxies was a level based game?
I could be wrong, but I dont' think anyone is going to agree with you that GURPS is based on levels.
While feature specifics are very important, and I agree with the OP. Ive looked at a few videos and just get the impression, visually, that its old. I looks something like everquest style graphics (though im sure EQ fan's will find that insulting)
While I don't exactly know what you mean by "Everquest style" I can only assume that you mean it looks similar to EQ.
This is EQ:
This is Darkfall:
Ya... they look exacly the same.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Originally posted by Ihmotepp GURPS has no levels, only skills. ?? Exactly. That's why you can't really compare GURPS to an online video game. But, since you did. Lets say GURPS was digital. How would having a good game session be rated without some type of numbers showing your progress? If you have skills, and they go up by adding points to the skills, or "using" the skills, how does either one turn the game into a "level based" game? What? You're talking about two different things here. If you are adding points to skills, how do you gain those skill points in the first place? Using the skills would be... well.. like Darkfall. So I'm not sure I follow you. That makes no sense. That's what I was thinking! How the skills increase, has nothing to do with whether you use skills or levels. ??? In GURPS, you are correct. But read below to find out why that does not matter in a PnP game.
ARe you saying Star Wars Galaxies was a level based game? No, the original SWG design was just like Darkfall. You use a skill, it goes up. I could be wrong, but I dont' think anyone is going to agree with you that GURPS is based on levels. *sigh* It's not. Because it's a PnP game. A human tells you how many skill points you earned at the end of a game. The DM is keeping score in his head, and when you reach a certain point he decides "Ok, Ihmotepp has earned 4 skill points so far for this game". In a digital world this type of progression replaces a real, thinking, human being with a number progression system that increases as you play the game. It's called XP and levels.
LOL I don't even know why I'm replying to you any more. You're obviously in denial. I still wish you would answer the question. Why is it such a big deal that you want a level based game?
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I think the features listed on the official website are still so vague that I couldn't really describe them accurately in order to ask someone if they wanted that feature or not. I'll give just one example with combat: [quote] Can you fight in cities?
Yes you can fight wherever you want. There are no safe zones. Aren’t you worried that out of control random player killers will ruin the game?
No. Being a random player killer of evil alignment is definitely possible, but also an extremely hard career. You will have enemies everywhere, and will have a hard time finding a safe city to trade in. You have the freedom to play such a character, but there’s also accountability for the choices you make. [/quote] http://www.darkfallonline.com/faq/combat.html
What sort of PvP is this? Well, it's Free For All Player versus Player, with Consequences.
There are problems with designing FFA PvP with Consequences. The Devil is in the Details. Not enough Consequences, and you have chaos and constant ganking. For example, let's say the Consequence is you lose one copper piece. Well, so what? Gank people all day long, and pay a copper piece, who cares? But, let's say the Consequence is you lose 30 levels of skill, all your money, all your gear, and you can't play the game for 24 hours. Well, you might as well not even have PvP, because the Consequences are so severe that no one is going to do it. Where does Darkfall come in on this scale? To easy, which means to much ganking, to hard which means not much PvP? Well, the features list says it's "extremely hard". What's extreme? I saw some really extreme behavior on the DAoC FFA servers. The players on the DAoC FFA servers would go off into the woods so they wouldn't get ganked, and solo easy mobs day and night for endless hours, so they could max level and gank other players. It was mind numbingly boring to level like this, but they would do it. Will they do the saem in DF so they can gank people over and over, and the people like me that won't do mind numbing chores be prevented from doing teh same? (I know there are no levels, I'm asking if players will do the things the developers think are "extremely hard" over and over just so they can gank people over and over.) I don't know, it's just to vague to tell. I"m just saying that most of the features listed are like this. I couldn't tell you for sure if I get those features that will be a fun game. It depends on how they are implemented, and we just don't know. I'm wiling to give the Developers the benefit of the doubt on this one: What camera view is used in Darkfall?
More on this soon It's hard to keep a website updated, and I'm sure they've been busy. I hope they know which camera views they will have available at this point in development.
With your PvP concerns the way it works is there are 3 factions Alfar make up one faction, Mahirim and Orc make up another, Human, Mirdain and Dwarf make up the 3rd faction. Killing those within your own factions results in a negative hit to your faction standing killing those outside of your faction results into a boost to your faction. There is FFA PvP, which means anyone can be attacked anywhere, the problem with fighting in a city though is that the Guards will come after you lol.
Also full loot being in the game adds a consequence that is the best in the industry imo. You won't be considerd evil aligned unless you are killing those within your own faction which would make you a penalty free target for those within your factions. You will not be able to use towns or NPC's associated with that faction either. The devil is in the details and this is the only point UO failed on, there wasn't a standard set way to PK without becoming a murderer which led to 2 factions murderers and innocent. In DarkFall there will still be Murderers and Innocent players but with the means to PvP without getting effected negatively people will not be as inclined to be murders as they were in UO. Why take a penalty for doing something when you can do it in a way that will result in no penalty and the exact opposite in fact. You get rewarded.
So yes it is FFA PvP with consequences but the factions are also an Integral part of it. It's a whole package that seems to have exactly what was missing from UO in the PvP department. People can still gank and grief but those that do so within there own faction will be limited. Zergs will also be harder to form, notice I said harder not impossible.
Anyways yes there website is outdated, the info comes in the form of the Dev journals on Warcry and interviews.
As far as what Camera view DarkFall will use............ pretty much everyone knows oO. Tight 3rd person view while you have a melee weapon out 1st person view with ranged or magic as well as the default view with nothing drawn. Mounted will be free look 3rd.
This has been explained many times in many places by Aventurine.
Check out the Dev journals and interviews and look at these links.
And lastly read up on the news section for a bit more info. Anyways I hope this has helped.
Edited to add: Most faqs and such on main sites are generaly a bit vauge especially for a game not yet released. This is just an industry standard. More info will be found in stickies, news, and updates than the official faqs and feature lists because they are just general info and overviews.
I think the features listed on the official website are still so vague that I couldn't really describe them accurately in order to ask someone if they wanted that feature or not. I'll give just one example with combat: [quote] Can you fight in cities?
Yes you can fight wherever you want. There are no safe zones. Aren’t you worried that out of control random player killers will ruin the game?
No. Being a random player killer of evil alignment is definitely possible, but also an extremely hard career. You will have enemies everywhere, and will have a hard time finding a safe city to trade in. You have the freedom to play such a character, but there’s also accountability for the choices you make. [/quote] http://www.darkfallonline.com/faq/combat.html
What sort of PvP is this? Well, it's Free For All Player versus Player, with Consequences.
There are problems with designing FFA PvP with Consequences. The Devil is in the Details. Not enough Consequences, and you have chaos and constant ganking. For example, let's say the Consequence is you lose one copper piece. Well, so what? Gank people all day long, and pay a copper piece, who cares? But, let's say the Consequence is you lose 30 levels of skill, all your money, all your gear, and you can't play the game for 24 hours. Well, you might as well not even have PvP, because the Consequences are so severe that no one is going to do it. Where does Darkfall come in on this scale? To easy, which means to much ganking, to hard which means not much PvP? Well, the features list says it's "extremely hard". What's extreme? I saw some really extreme behavior on the DAoC FFA servers. The players on the DAoC FFA servers would go off into the woods so they wouldn't get ganked, and solo easy mobs day and night for endless hours, so they could max level and gank other players. It was mind numbingly boring to level like this, but they would do it. Will they do the saem in DF so they can gank people over and over, and the people like me that won't do mind numbing chores be prevented from doing teh same? (I know there are no levels, I'm asking if players will do the things the developers think are "extremely hard" over and over just so they can gank people over and over.) I don't know, it's just to vague to tell. I"m just saying that most of the features listed are like this. I couldn't tell you for sure if I get those features that will be a fun game. It depends on how they are implemented, and we just don't know. I'm wiling to give the Developers the benefit of the doubt on this one: What camera view is used in Darkfall?
More on this soon It's hard to keep a website updated, and I'm sure they've been busy. I hope they know which camera views they will have available at this point in development.
With your PvP concerns the way it works is there are 3 factions Alfar make up one faction, Mahirim and Orc make up another, Human, Mirdain and Dwarf make up the 3rd faction. Killing those within your own factions results in a negative hit to your faction standing killing those outside of your faction results into a boost to your faction. There is FFA PvP, which means anyone can be attacked anywhere, the problem with fighting in a city though is that the Guards will come after you lol.
Also full loot being in the game adds a consequence that is the best in the industry imo. You won't be considerd evil aligned unless you are killing those within your own faction which would make you a penalty free target for those within your factions. You will not be able to use towns or NPC's associated with that faction either. The devil is in the details and this is the only point UO failed on, there wasn't a standard set way to PK without becoming a murderer which led to 2 factions murderers and innocent. In DarkFall there will still be Murderers and Innocent players but with the means to PvP without getting effected negatively people will not be as inclined to be murders as they were in UO. Why take a penalty for doing something when you can do it in a way that will result in no penalty and the exact opposite in fact. You get rewarded.
So yes it is FFA PvP with consequences but the factions are also an Integral part of it. It's a whole package that seems to have exactly what was missing from UO in the PvP department. People can still gank and grief but those that do so within there own faction will be limited. Zergs will also be harder to form, notice I said harder not impossible.
Anyways yes there website is outdated, the info comes in the form of the Dev journals on Warcry and interviews.
As far as what Camera view DarkFall will use............ pretty much everyone knows oO. Tight 3rd person view while you have a melee weapon out 1st person view with ranged or magic as well as the default view with nothing drawn. Mounted will be free look 3rd.
This has been explained many times in many places by Aventurine.
Check out the Dev journals and interviews and look at these links.
And lastly read up on the news section for a bit more info. Anyways I hope this has helped.
Edited to add: Most faqs and such on main sites are generaly a bit vauge especially for a game not yet released. This is just an industry standard. More info will be found in stickies, news, and updates than the official faqs and feature lists because they are just general info and overviews.
Hmmm. That sound a lot more like Dark Age of Camelot RvR, except they allow PK's, if someone really wants the hassle of doing that.
That's not near as much freedom as allowing Players to decide who the Factions are, like in Shadowbane.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp GURPS has no levels, only skills. ?? Exactly. That's why you can't really compare GURPS to an online video game. But, since you did. Lets say GURPS was digital. How would having a good game session be rated without some type of numbers showing your progress? If you have skills, and they go up by adding points to the skills, or "using" the skills, how does either one turn the game into a "level based" game? What? You're talking about two different things here. If you are adding points to skills, how do you gain those skill points in the first place? Using the skills would be... well.. like Darkfall. So I'm not sure I follow you. That makes no sense. That's what I was thinking! How the skills increase, has nothing to do with whether you use skills or levels. ??? In GURPS, you are correct. But read below to find out why that does not matter in a PnP game.
ARe you saying Star Wars Galaxies was a level based game? No, the original SWG design was just like Darkfall. You use a skill, it goes up. I could be wrong, but I dont' think anyone is going to agree with you that GURPS is based on levels. *sigh* It's not. Because it's a PnP game. A human tells you how many skill points you earned at the end of a game. The DM is keeping score in his head, and when you reach a certain point he decides "Ok, Ihmotepp has earned 4 skill points so far for this game". In a digital world this type of progression replaces a real, thinking, human being with a number progression system that increases as you play the game. It's called XP and levels.
LOL I don't even know why I'm replying to you any more. You're obviously in denial. I still wish you would answer the question. Why is it such a big deal that you want a level based game?
I like both level based games, and skill based games. If it's a skill base game, I find it more fun if I can earn skill points, and buy which skills I want, and also spend skill points to raise which skills I want, rather than buy skills with money, then raise them with use.
However, a skill system where you don't spend skill points, but you raise skills with use can be fun too. I played Dungeon Siege, and it was fun.
I just think spending skill points is them more sophisticated and elegant solution. Repetitive actions to raise a skill, like in Dungeon Siege just seems simplistic to me. But simplistic can also be fun.
No matter how you slice it, I"m pretty sure that Skill system doesn't mean that it MUST be a system where you raise skills by using them. I'll make a topic in the General Discussion area, and see what we get.
I think the features listed on the official website are still so vague that I couldn't really describe them accurately in order to ask someone if they wanted that feature or not. I'll give just one example with combat: [quote] Can you fight in cities?
Yes you can fight wherever you want. There are no safe zones. Aren’t you worried that out of control random player killers will ruin the game?
No. Being a random player killer of evil alignment is definitely possible, but also an extremely hard career. You will have enemies everywhere, and will have a hard time finding a safe city to trade in. You have the freedom to play such a character, but there’s also accountability for the choices you make. [/quote] http://www.darkfallonline.com/faq/combat.html
What sort of PvP is this? Well, it's Free For All Player versus Player, with Consequences.
There are problems with designing FFA PvP with Consequences. The Devil is in the Details. Not enough Consequences, and you have chaos and constant ganking. For example, let's say the Consequence is you lose one copper piece. Well, so what? Gank people all day long, and pay a copper piece, who cares? But, let's say the Consequence is you lose 30 levels of skill, all your money, all your gear, and you can't play the game for 24 hours. Well, you might as well not even have PvP, because the Consequences are so severe that no one is going to do it. Where does Darkfall come in on this scale? To easy, which means to much ganking, to hard which means not much PvP? Well, the features list says it's "extremely hard". What's extreme? I saw some really extreme behavior on the DAoC FFA servers. The players on the DAoC FFA servers would go off into the woods so they wouldn't get ganked, and solo easy mobs day and night for endless hours, so they could max level and gank other players. It was mind numbingly boring to level like this, but they would do it. Will they do the saem in DF so they can gank people over and over, and the people like me that won't do mind numbing chores be prevented from doing teh same? (I know there are no levels, I'm asking if players will do the things the developers think are "extremely hard" over and over just so they can gank people over and over.) I don't know, it's just to vague to tell. I"m just saying that most of the features listed are like this. I couldn't tell you for sure if I get those features that will be a fun game. It depends on how they are implemented, and we just don't know. I'm wiling to give the Developers the benefit of the doubt on this one: What camera view is used in Darkfall?
More on this soon It's hard to keep a website updated, and I'm sure they've been busy. I hope they know which camera views they will have available at this point in development.
With your PvP concerns the way it works is there are 3 factions Alfar make up one faction, Mahirim and Orc make up another, Human, Mirdain and Dwarf make up the 3rd faction. Killing those within your own factions results in a negative hit to your faction standing killing those outside of your faction results into a boost to your faction. There is FFA PvP, which means anyone can be attacked anywhere, the problem with fighting in a city though is that the Guards will come after you lol.
Also full loot being in the game adds a consequence that is the best in the industry imo. You won't be considerd evil aligned unless you are killing those within your own faction which would make you a penalty free target for those within your factions. You will not be able to use towns or NPC's associated with that faction either. The devil is in the details and this is the only point UO failed on, there wasn't a standard set way to PK without becoming a murderer which led to 2 factions murderers and innocent. In DarkFall there will still be Murderers and Innocent players but with the means to PvP without getting effected negatively people will not be as inclined to be murders as they were in UO. Why take a penalty for doing something when you can do it in a way that will result in no penalty and the exact opposite in fact. You get rewarded.
So yes it is FFA PvP with consequences but the factions are also an Integral part of it. It's a whole package that seems to have exactly what was missing from UO in the PvP department. People can still gank and grief but those that do so within there own faction will be limited. Zergs will also be harder to form, notice I said harder not impossible.
Anyways yes there website is outdated, the info comes in the form of the Dev journals on Warcry and interviews.
As far as what Camera view DarkFall will use............ pretty much everyone knows oO. Tight 3rd person view while you have a melee weapon out 1st person view with ranged or magic as well as the default view with nothing drawn. Mounted will be free look 3rd.
This has been explained many times in many places by Aventurine.
Check out the Dev journals and interviews and look at these links.
And lastly read up on the news section for a bit more info. Anyways I hope this has helped.
Edited to add: Most faqs and such on main sites are generaly a bit vauge especially for a game not yet released. This is just an industry standard. More info will be found in stickies, news, and updates than the official faqs and feature lists because they are just general info and overviews.
Hmmm. That sound a lot more like Dark Age of Camelot RvR, except they allow PK's, if someone really wants the hassle of doing that.
That's not near as much freedom as allowing Players to decide who the Factions are, like in Shadowbane.
All race clans are allowed. You aren't forced to do anything, the freedom is there. They just added some risks to it. Which I honestly like. It is similar to RvR in ways but not RvR in others, while the factions are in place the limitations are not. You can party with enemy races, be in clans with them, help them, kill them, just as you can with those within your own faction.
Here's what other have to say about skill systems vs LEVEL based systems. the consensus seems to be that you can LEVEL in a class system or a SKILL system. The difference is whether you have a ClASS system, or SKILL system. If you earn skill points and spend them on skills, it's still a SKILL system, and not a CLASS system.
That is true as long as there is not a class. If I am a White Mage then I am a class regardless if I can spend skill points because I must remain within the boundries of a White mage then it is not a pure class system it is a hybrid that still spends it's main focus on class.
Here's what other have to say about skill systems vs LEVEL based systems. the consensus seems to be that you can LEVEL in a class system or a SKILL system. The difference is whether you have a ClASS system, or SKILL system. If you earn skill points and spend them on skills, it's still a SKILL system, and not a CLASS system.
That is true as long as there is not a class. If I am a White Mage then I am a class regardless if I can spend skill points because I must remain within the boundries of a White mage then it is not a pure class system it is a hybrid that still spends it's main focus on class.
Which is why Dameonkdoesn't make much sense.
He's saying that only Darkfall is a skill system, because you raise skills by using them, but a system where you spend points on skills is a level system.
But won't you have skill LEVELS in Darkfall?
What's your sword skill?
What's your fireball skill?
Aren't you going to say, level 3, or level 100? How does it matter how it got to that level? Either way it's a skill system.
With a Level system, you pick a class, adn then as you increase in level, the game picks your new abilities for you, or gives you a small list to choose from bases on yoru class.
Comments
What's "natural" about it is that this is the way real life works. If you want to get better at something, you have to practice it... usually by repetitive action, as it turns out. I personally don't find this particularly "fun" but it is nonetheless realistic.
I disagree. It's not realistic at all.
Imagine any actvity that requires lots of practice. The Practice is boring repetition, not real performance.
If you area boxer, you don't practice by having real boxing matches. You get in a sparring ring and practice, and you hit a bag over and over.
If you are going deer hunting, you don't get good by simply running off into the woods and shooting at deer over and over. You go to a range, and shoot targets, over and over.
If you are going to be a ballet dancer, you don't just get on stage till audiences like you, you go to a studio and dance in front of a mirror over and over.
If you want to be a good race car driver, you practice going around and around the track with no cars, before you enter a real race. You don't just start racing, and get good while you're racing.
So no, there's nothing "natural" about getting good doing something without boring practice, which is how things work in the real world.
The boring practice is where you get good, but you're not saying that's in the game, you're saying you get good while in the act, not "practice". Again, very unnatural.
But that's ok, because games aren't supposed to be "natural" they['re supposed to be fun. If they were like real life, our characters would have to go to the bathroom every so often. That would be very natural.
I think now you're just getting into semantics. Aventurine is attempting to create a realistic environment, within which you improve your skills by using them repeatedly, but still within the context of a computer game. Yes you're right, the essence of improvement comes from drilling simple activities (or indeed from being taught by someone, something I'm not aware of MMO games having really touched on yet). But this is still the same basic concept, that of doing something to get better at that thing.
By contrast, the system you prefer (and I'm not saying it's better or worse, just different) is completely abstract - which of your skills you use doesn't need to have any bearing whatsoever to which of your skills are improving. This is completely unrealistic. Not inferior (in my opinion anyway), but without even a tenuous link to the real world. Fact is, Aventurine are committed to implementing the former system in Darkfall, and that's not going to change. Unless they decide to scrap the whole thing and start again.
Again.
In the real world, we get better at things by boring repetition, called "practice".
My system isn't "abstract". It's straight out of most Paper n Pencil roleplaying games.
You fight tons of bad guys, monsters, etc. Now you have enough money and experience to train to the next level, gain the next skill. You decide to get better with the bow, so you go to a monastery where Kung Fu Moncks train you for months in the art of becoming one with the bow, which is represented by how many skill points you spend on bow skill, or leveling up in a class that uses bow. Now, back to adventure....You don't actually spend time shooting targets for months, because it would be "realistic" but boring.
IMo, much more "realistic" than people train to get better at something, but never "practice".
What do you think is happening when you BUY a skill from an NPC in teh first place?
How is that so "realistic"?
Nothing natural? Are you kidding?
Is it more natural to gain a level by using solely your sword, level up by putting all points in bow mastery, and suddenly you become expert with the bow?
If you want to kill said worm with your sword, kill it with your sword. If you want to get better with your bow, hit it with your bow. I don't understand the unnatural thing you're getting from this.
Besides, in this example, it's good to use your bow, if you want to become good, not only your character, because you also get better, since it's an fps. You get a better feeling of how the bow works, the aim, the leading you must apply to hit your target, etc etc. And I guess the same goes on magic-using.
No, I am not kidding. IMO, this is completely unnatural.
I can kill this mob with one smack of my sword. Why, in a "natural" i.e. realistic setting would I not go ahead and do that. What possible motivation, realistically could I have for not killing a menacing monster as fast as possible?
In a use = skill increase system, instead of killing this mob with one whack of my sword, I might shoot it 20 times with my bow.
Why? Skill increase.
That's natural? Hardly.
Natural is I go to a target range, and if I want to get better at using a bow, I shoot 8 bazillion arrows at targets. I don't "practice" while I'm trying to stay alive. That's silly.
But again, it's a game. If it's fun, then it's fun. If we wanted realism, we could play real life.
Don't believe me? Go find someone that hunts deer with a bow and arrow, and tell them you want to go hunting, but you've never used a bow before. They will send you to the range, not hope you get good practicing shooting at deer and wounding them.
You just focused on the first thing I said and you just discarded the rest? Is that your way of reading other posts and then arguing about them?
ok ok, another example.
Who's better at shooting deers? One that has spent his whole life practicing at shooting, or someone that has actually went out and killed a deer?
Nothing natural? Are you kidding?
Is it more natural to gain a level by using solely your sword, level up by putting all points in bow mastery, and suddenly you become expert with the bow?
If you want to kill said worm with your sword, kill it with your sword. If you want to get better with your bow, hit it with your bow. I don't understand the unnatural thing you're getting from this.
Besides, in this example, it's good to use your bow, if you want to become good, not only your character, because you also get better, since it's an fps. You get a better feeling of how the bow works, the aim, the leading you must apply to hit your target, etc etc. And I guess the same goes on magic-using.
No, I am not kidding. IMO, this is completely unnatural.
I can kill this mob with one smack of my sword. Why, in a "natural" i.e. realistic setting would I not go ahead and do that. What possible motivation, realistically could I have for not killing a menacing monster as fast as possible?
In a use = skill increase system, instead of killing this mob with one whack of my sword, I might shoot it 20 times with my bow.
Why? Skill increase.
That's natural? Hardly.
Natural is I go to a target range, and if I want to get better at using a bow, I shoot 8 bazillion arrows at targets. I don't "practice" while I'm trying to stay alive. That's silly.
But again, it's a game. If it's fun, then it's fun. If we wanted realism, we could play real life.
Don't believe me? Go find someone that hunts deer with a bow and arrow, and tell them you want to go hunting, but you've never used a bow before. They will send you to the range, not hope you get good practicing shooting at deer and wounding them.
You just focused on the first thing I said and you just discarded the rest? Is that your way of reading other posts and then arguing about them?
ok ok, another example.
Who's better at shooting deers? One that has spent his whole life practicing at shooting, or someone that has actually went out and killed a deer?
That's the experience factor. That's not how you gain a skill, that's how you learn to implement it to your best advantage.
There's no wrong or right answer. It's just what you prefer, like chocolate or vanilla. If you like chocolate better than vanilla, I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong, because chocolate is more realistic.
If you like to do something over and over to increase the skill, and you think that's fun, nobody can say you're wrong.
I like to spend skill points. To me, it's more realistic, and a lot more fun to build your character, and it doesn't give you incentive to do things over and over just to increase the skill.
I would much rather shoot 8 bazillion arrows, gain skill points, then spend them on my sword swinging skill, if that's the way I want to build my character. Much more freedom in building a character that way.
For me, it's like people that complain about gold pieces dropping when you kill a wolf. I don't need to skin a wolf and get wolf pelts. I can imagine that I found gold pieces near by, from other adventurers that were killed by the wolves. I can use my imagination.
I can imagine that I went some where and practiced in increase my sword swining skills. I don't have to swing a sword 8 bazillion times in the game to be "immersed".
I also like beer with lots of hops, like Samuel Adams Boston Lager, while some people prefer a nice pale ale instead.
Ihmotepp you are coming across as clueless as to the real world outside of your own particular environment. What you refer as practice is actually doing the activity in a controlled environment. Not everywhere at all times have such controlled environments existed in order to allow "practice" to take place.
If I were starting a new job as a bricklayer my boss wouldn't make me build practice walls for six months in order to get up to standard. I would practice on the job. Maybe doing less important garden walls to start with but I would be doing the actual task. I wouldn't be able to build walls for six months and then suddenly be able to lay concrete perfectly as a result. Don't talk to me about college courses as that's clearly not how it has always be done, and still isn't everywhere.
If I was a child soldier drafted into a third world army my target practice would be shooting real live enemies in actual real battles, not on a practice range. I would get good at it or I would die. Simple no practice needed.
If I got a job in a abattoir are they going to give me a fake cow to practice on? Nope.
In WWII did all soldier get trained in the use of fire arms? Nope. Some of them didn't even handle one until they looted off the corpse of one of their dead comrades.
I hope you get the point as I could list pages of activities like this.
Practice and doing something for real are the same thing, the only difference is the environment you do it in. In Darkfall you can do what you refer to as practice, duelling or casting spells at brick walls, whatever you want. Personally I will practice in the field as it would boring otherwise.
It is obvious if you thought about it which system is more realistic, if you don't like realism then don't play.
What's "natural" about it is that this is the way real life works. If you want to get better at something, you have to practice it... usually by repetitive action, as it turns out. I personally don't find this particularly "fun" but it is nonetheless realistic.
I disagree. It's not realistic at all.
Imagine any actvity that requires lots of practice. The Practice is boring repetition, not real performance.
If you area boxer, you don't practice by having real boxing matches. You get in a sparring ring and practice, and you hit a bag over and over.
If you are going deer hunting, you don't get good by simply running off into the woods and shooting at deer over and over. You go to a range, and shoot targets, over and over.
If you are going to be a ballet dancer, you don't just get on stage till audiences like you, you go to a studio and dance in front of a mirror over and over.
If you want to be a good race car driver, you practice going around and around the track with no cars, before you enter a real race. You don't just start racing, and get good while you're racing.
So no, there's nothing "natural" about getting good doing something without boring practice, which is how things work in the real world.
The boring practice is where you get good, but you're not saying that's in the game, you're saying you get good while in the act, not "practice". Again, very unnatural.
But that's ok, because games aren't supposed to be "natural" they['re supposed to be fun. If they were like real life, our characters would have to go to the bathroom every so often. That would be very natural.
I think now you're just getting into semantics. Aventurine is attempting to create a realistic environment, within which you improve your skills by using them repeatedly, but still within the context of a computer game. Yes you're right, the essence of improvement comes from drilling simple activities (or indeed from being taught by someone, something I'm not aware of MMO games having really touched on yet). But this is still the same basic concept, that of doing something to get better at that thing.
By contrast, the system you prefer (and I'm not saying it's better or worse, just different) is completely abstract - which of your skills you use doesn't need to have any bearing whatsoever to which of your skills are improving. This is completely unrealistic. Not inferior (in my opinion anyway), but without even a tenuous link to the real world. Fact is, Aventurine are committed to implementing the former system in Darkfall, and that's not going to change. Unless they decide to scrap the whole thing and start again.
Again.
In the real world, we get better at things by boring repetition, called "practice".
My system isn't "abstract". It's straight out of most Paper n Pencil roleplaying games.
You fight tons of bad guys, monsters, etc. Now you have enough money and experience to train to the next level, gain the next skill. You decide to get better with the bow, so you go to a monastery where Kung Fu Moncks train you for months in the art of becoming one with the bow, which is represented by how many skill points you spend on bow skill, or leveling up in a class that uses bow. Now, back to adventure....You don't actually spend time shooting targets for months, because it would be "realistic" but boring.
IMo, much more "realistic" than people train to get better at something, but never "practice".
What do you think is happening when you BUY a skill from an NPC in teh first place?
How is that so "realistic"?
I see what you're getting at. The logic of your take on realistic skill progression falls down, however, if you were to apply your skills in reverse. Say your straight-out-of-the-blocks newbie character decides that he wants to be a master of archery but, for some mysterious reason (perhaps he doesn't have a bow, whatever) he goes out and kills a hundred goblins using his sword, then levels and spends all his newfound skill points on the archery he always dreamed of.
According to your reality, this character is now significantly more skilled with the bow than with his sword... in fact he is still only as skilled with a sword as any other newbie character that appears, despite having applied that skill repeatedly and successfully. It's all well and good to say that you imagine he's gone to some monastery to train for a year, but surely during that time he hasn't forgotten how to hold a sword?! And if so, has he then forgotten al his other skills as well?
Like I said, it's an abstract system. Just like P'n'P RPGs.
Of course it's the frikkin experience factor. That's the effin gist of the thing. You gain experience when you swing your sword, a.k.a. you're getting better with it. Do you disagree with this? Is it unnatural and unrealistic? Which soldier would you prefer to take in a war with you, one that has fought in one battle, or one that has been in 4-5 ones? Which one would you say it's better?
And then, would you take the selected soldier to pilot a plane because he used his rifle about 8 bazillion times, over a trained pilot?
And in the end, dude, you really need to clear up what you want to argue about. First, you start talking about the skill progression, but in your last post you're talking about how you acquire skills. Then, you're talking about this not being realistic, and you're ending your post by saying that you're using abstract thought when wolves drop gold.
Just make up your mind.
I doubt you missed when Tasos informed us that the game is feature complete?
If you did its to read in one of the numerous developer journals available over at http://forums.darkfallonline.com/forumdisplay.php?f=29 .
LOL!
Polar is one of the most informed posters on these boards. He has done extensive research on this game and informed us of many things we would have never known.
But... As usual, only YOU have all the answers.
Well, we'll all see what answers you have come this January.
To each their own, I suppose. Sorry about the long posts then, I just assumed you had not played a true skill based system because personally I don't understand why anyone would want anything different. But, there are always different opinions on everything, so I respect your want of a level based system instead of skill based.
Darkfall will not be a level based system though, so no point discussing it any further.
Sorry, but you completely misunderstood me.
I didn't say I wanted a level based system. Skills are fine. I prefer to earn skill points, then choose which skills I will raise, and spend the points on those skills. Similar to Fallout 3 or KOTOR.
That is not a level system.
Ihmotepp you are coming across as clueless as to the real world outside of your own particular environment. What you refer as practice is actually doing the activity in a controlled environment. Not everywhere at all times have such controlled environments existed in order to allow "practice" to take place.
If I were starting a new job as a bricklayer my boss wouldn't make me build practice walls for six months in order to get up to standard. I would practice on the job. Maybe doing less important garden walls to start with but I would be doing the actual task. I wouldn't be able to build walls for six months and then suddenly be able to lay concrete perfectly as a result. Don't talk to me about college courses as that's clearly not how it has always be done, and still isn't everywhere.
If I was a child soldier drafted into a third world army my target practice would be shooting real live enemies in actual real battles, not on a practice range. I would get good at it or I would die. Simple no practice needed.
If I got a job in a abattoir are they going to give me a fake cow to practice on? Nope.
In WWII did all soldier get trained in the use of fire arms? Nope. Some of them didn't even handle one until they looted off the corpse of one of their dead comrades.
I hope you get the point as I could list pages of activities like this.
Practice and doing something for real are the same thing, the only difference is the environment you do it in. In Darkfall you can do what you refer to as practice, duelling or casting spells at brick walls, whatever you want. Personally I will practice in the field as it would boring otherwise.
It is obvious if you thought about it which system is more realistic, if you don't like realism then don't play.
First of all, I hope you are wrong about "practicing" in Darkfall. If that's the case, shoot spell at brick wall, make macro, come back tomorrow when spell skill is maxed out.
It is obvious that people practice to get better at something, n not just go use that skill. If you want realism, then you'd take your sword adn whack on a practice dummy for 8 hours a day to get better.
But, if you think the unrealistic method of gaining skill, recieving skill increases, for using the skill in combat, is fun, I got no problem with that.
Whatever is fun is fun.
It might be a fun game, I don't know till I try it, but you're wasting time trying to convince me an arbitrary game mechanic is more "realistic".
I went and practiced every day for 3 months to get better at shooting my bow. I shot arrows all day long, 7 dayts a week. This is represented by the 3 points I"m spending in bow skill.
Seems much more "realistic" to me.
Ihmotepp you are coming across as clueless as to the real world outside of your own particular environment. What you refer as practice is actually doing the activity in a controlled environment. Not everywhere at all times have such controlled environments existed in order to allow "practice" to take place.
If I were starting a new job as a bricklayer my boss wouldn't make me build practice walls for six months in order to get up to standard. I would practice on the job. Maybe doing less important garden walls to start with but I would be doing the actual task. I wouldn't be able to build walls for six months and then suddenly be able to lay concrete perfectly as a result. Don't talk to me about college courses as that's clearly not how it has always be done, and still isn't everywhere.
If I was a child soldier drafted into a third world army my target practice would be shooting real live enemies in actual real battles, not on a practice range. I would get good at it or I would die. Simple no practice needed.
If I got a job in a abattoir are they going to give me a fake cow to practice on? Nope.
In WWII did all soldier get trained in the use of fire arms? Nope. Some of them didn't even handle one until they looted off the corpse of one of their dead comrades.
I hope you get the point as I could list pages of activities like this.
Practice and doing something for real are the same thing, the only difference is the environment you do it in. In Darkfall you can do what you refer to as practice, duelling or casting spells at brick walls, whatever you want. Personally I will practice in the field as it would boring otherwise.
It is obvious if you thought about it which system is more realistic, if you don't like realism then don't play.
First of all, I hope you are wrong about "practicing" in Darkfall. If that's the case, shoot spell at brick wall, make macro, come back tomorrow when spell skill is maxed out.
It is obvious that people practice to get better at something, n not just go use that skill. If you want realism, then you'd take your sword adn whack on a practice dummy for 8 hours a day to get better.
But, if you think the unrealistic method of gaining skill, recieving skill increases, for using the skill in combat, is fun, I got no problem with that.
Whatever is fun is fun.
It might be a fun game, I don't know till I try it, but you're wasting time trying to convince me an arbitrary game mechanic is more "realistic".
I went and practiced every day for 3 months to get better at shooting my bow. I shot arrows all day long, 7 dayts a week. This is represented by the 3 points I"m spending in bow skill.
Seems much more "realistic" to me.
Answer this question:
Do you think its unrealistic that you get better at handeling a bow, when you have used it for a whole day?
Becouse that is basically what im reading up there (the text marked in red).
Getting better at using a bow by swinging a sword all day is unrealistic. No matter how you turn it. I could buy getting better a bow with skillpoints (that in imagination ment you went to a training place) AND you got better at the sword while using it.
Not getting better at using a sword after swinging it and trying it all day but for some reason getting better at the BOW while doing this is unrealistic, sure with imagination its perfectly viable to use it in a game, but to call it more realistic then the swing-and-skill system is silly.
Wich system is more fun is up to each individual, wont go there...
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
No, I completely understood you.
You kill monsters, you gain xp, once you gain enough XP, you gain a level and get skill points to apply to your character. These two games you list as examples are the definition of a level based system.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
No, I completely understood you.
You kill monsters, you gain xp, once you gain enough XP, you gain a level and get skill points to apply to your character. These two games you list as examples are the definition of a level based system.
Ok, here's a better example, GURPS.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/
Ihmotepp you are coming across as clueless as to the real world outside of your own particular environment. What you refer as practice is actually doing the activity in a controlled environment. Not everywhere at all times have such controlled environments existed in order to allow "practice" to take place.
If I were starting a new job as a bricklayer my boss wouldn't make me build practice walls for six months in order to get up to standard. I would practice on the job. Maybe doing less important garden walls to start with but I would be doing the actual task. I wouldn't be able to build walls for six months and then suddenly be able to lay concrete perfectly as a result. Don't talk to me about college courses as that's clearly not how it has always be done, and still isn't everywhere.
If I was a child soldier drafted into a third world army my target practice would be shooting real live enemies in actual real battles, not on a practice range. I would get good at it or I would die. Simple no practice needed.
If I got a job in a abattoir are they going to give me a fake cow to practice on? Nope.
In WWII did all soldier get trained in the use of fire arms? Nope. Some of them didn't even handle one until they looted off the corpse of one of their dead comrades.
I hope you get the point as I could list pages of activities like this.
Practice and doing something for real are the same thing, the only difference is the environment you do it in. In Darkfall you can do what you refer to as practice, duelling or casting spells at brick walls, whatever you want. Personally I will practice in the field as it would boring otherwise.
It is obvious if you thought about it which system is more realistic, if you don't like realism then don't play.
First of all, I hope you are wrong about "practicing" in Darkfall. If that's the case, shoot spell at brick wall, make macro, come back tomorrow when spell skill is maxed out.
It is obvious that people practice to get better at something, n not just go use that skill. If you want realism, then you'd take your sword adn whack on a practice dummy for 8 hours a day to get better.
But, if you think the unrealistic method of gaining skill, recieving skill increases, for using the skill in combat, is fun, I got no problem with that.
Whatever is fun is fun.
It might be a fun game, I don't know till I try it, but you're wasting time trying to convince me an arbitrary game mechanic is more "realistic".
I went and practiced every day for 3 months to get better at shooting my bow. I shot arrows all day long, 7 dayts a week. This is represented by the 3 points I"m spending in bow skill.
Seems much more "realistic" to me.
Answer this question:
Do you think its unrealistic that you get better at handeling a bow, when you have used it for a whole day?
Becouse that is basically what im reading up there (the text marked in red).
Getting better at using a bow by swinging a sword all day is unrealistic. No matter how you turn it. I could buy getting better a bow with skillpoints (that in imagination ment you went to a training place) AND you got better at the sword while using it.
Not getting better at using a sword after swinging it and trying it all day but for some reason getting better at the BOW while doing this is unrealistic, sure with imagination its perfectly viable to use it in a game, but to call it more realistic then the swing-and-skill system is silly.
Wich system is more fun is up to each individual, wont go there...
No.
This is what happens. I swing my sword all day, for months. I gain a little fame and fortune. Then I decide that I'd like to learn how to handle a bow. So, I hire the best archer in the land to give me private archery lessons. I go to a retreat, and train with him 14 hours a day. He makes me shoot the bow with my eyes closed, behind my back, while he beats me with a stick, at still targets, at moving targets, at coins he throws in the air. He teaches me all the tips and tricks he's learned over a lifetime to become the best archer in the land.
After 3 months of this intense training, I'm now a decent archer.
Do I want to actually shoot a bazillion arrows at a target in the game? Nope. Then what can we do? Well, we just give you some skill points, let you spend them on Bow Skill, and we say this represents the months you spent training.
Since I have an imagination, this seems perfectly "realistic" to me.
But I used to play Paper and Pencil games, so this isn't a new concept. For example, you and your friends tell the Game Master we wish to travel to the town of Deepwater, which is 2 weeks travel from here.
The Game Master says, you travel for 2 weeks, nothing eventful happens, you arrive in Deepwater, and then....
Do you really need the Game Master to say, you walk all day. You camp. You hear birds sing. Next day, you walk all day. You camp. You see a squirrel. Next day, you walk all day, you camp....
For me, that's your, use skill = increase. Shoot your bow, over and over and over and over and over, to increase skill. I'd rather just spend the skill points, and SAY I shot my bow over and over. I don't really need to DO it in the game.
While feature specifics are very important, and I agree with the OP. Ive looked at a few videos and just get the impression, visually, that its old. I looks something like everquest style graphics (though im sure EQ fan's will find that insulting)
looking over the 'feautres' and 'mechanics' along with its visual appeal (lack of), im not sure I see where this mmo fitting into the market.
I know certain guild organisations from EQ, Vanguard and old DaoC players prospecting this game, but they are in the minority.
Even though your example is a PnP game and is in a totally different genre than MMO games. It is STILL a level based game.
I honestly don't know what the big deal is, so what, you like level based games?
"At the end of each play session, the GM should award bonus character points for
good play."
This is EXACTLY like gaining XP for levels in an MMO game.
"Good play" in this example would be gaining enough XP to level, therefore, getting skill points to arbitrarily apply to your character. If someone does something completely out of character during a GURPS game they are not supposed to be awarded any skill points. this would be akin to not gaining enough XP to level.
It's exactly the same, I don't know why you're trying to fight it. So what? You like level based games, why is this such a big deal for you to admit?
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Even though your example is a PnP game and is in a totally different genre than MMO games. It is STILL a level based game.
I honestly don't know what the big deal is, so what, you like level based games?
"At the end of each play session, the GM should award bonus character points for
good play."
This is EXACTLY like gaining XP for levels in an MMO game.
"Good play" in this example would be gaining enough XP to level, therefore, getting skill points to arbitrarily apply to your character. If someone does something completely out of character during a GURPS game they are not supposed to be awarded any skill points. this would be akin to not gaining enough XP to level.
It's exactly the same, I don't know why you're trying to fight it. So what? You like level based games, why is this such a big deal for you to admit?
GURPS has no levels, only skills. ??
If you have skills, and they go up by adding points to the skills, or "using" the skills, how does either one turn the game into a "level based" game?
That makes no sense.
How the skills increase, has nothing to do with whether you use skills or levels. ???
ARe you saying Star Wars Galaxies was a level based game?
I could be wrong, but I dont' think anyone is going to agree with you that GURPS is based on levels.
While I don't exactly know what you mean by "Everquest style" I can only assume that you mean it looks similar to EQ.
This is EQ:
This is Darkfall:
Ya... they look exacly the same.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
LOL I don't even know why I'm replying to you any more. You're obviously in denial. I still wish you would answer the question. Why is it such a big deal that you want a level based game?
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
With your PvP concerns the way it works is there are 3 factions Alfar make up one faction, Mahirim and Orc make up another, Human, Mirdain and Dwarf make up the 3rd faction. Killing those within your own factions results in a negative hit to your faction standing killing those outside of your faction results into a boost to your faction. There is FFA PvP, which means anyone can be attacked anywhere, the problem with fighting in a city though is that the Guards will come after you lol.
Also full loot being in the game adds a consequence that is the best in the industry imo. You won't be considerd evil aligned unless you are killing those within your own faction which would make you a penalty free target for those within your factions. You will not be able to use towns or NPC's associated with that faction either. The devil is in the details and this is the only point UO failed on, there wasn't a standard set way to PK without becoming a murderer which led to 2 factions murderers and innocent. In DarkFall there will still be Murderers and Innocent players but with the means to PvP without getting effected negatively people will not be as inclined to be murders as they were in UO. Why take a penalty for doing something when you can do it in a way that will result in no penalty and the exact opposite in fact. You get rewarded.
So yes it is FFA PvP with consequences but the factions are also an Integral part of it. It's a whole package that seems to have exactly what was missing from UO in the PvP department. People can still gank and grief but those that do so within there own faction will be limited. Zergs will also be harder to form, notice I said harder not impossible.
Anyways yes there website is outdated, the info comes in the form of the Dev journals on Warcry and interviews.
As far as what Camera view DarkFall will use............ pretty much everyone knows oO. Tight 3rd person view while you have a melee weapon out 1st person view with ranged or magic as well as the default view with nothing drawn. Mounted will be free look 3rd.
This has been explained many times in many places by Aventurine.
Check out the Dev journals and interviews and look at these links.
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=16052
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=43318
And lastly read up on the news section for a bit more info. Anyways I hope this has helped.
Edited to add: Most faqs and such on main sites are generaly a bit vauge especially for a game not yet released. This is just an industry standard. More info will be found in stickies, news, and updates than the official faqs and feature lists because they are just general info and overviews.
With your PvP concerns the way it works is there are 3 factions Alfar make up one faction, Mahirim and Orc make up another, Human, Mirdain and Dwarf make up the 3rd faction. Killing those within your own factions results in a negative hit to your faction standing killing those outside of your faction results into a boost to your faction. There is FFA PvP, which means anyone can be attacked anywhere, the problem with fighting in a city though is that the Guards will come after you lol.
Also full loot being in the game adds a consequence that is the best in the industry imo. You won't be considerd evil aligned unless you are killing those within your own faction which would make you a penalty free target for those within your factions. You will not be able to use towns or NPC's associated with that faction either. The devil is in the details and this is the only point UO failed on, there wasn't a standard set way to PK without becoming a murderer which led to 2 factions murderers and innocent. In DarkFall there will still be Murderers and Innocent players but with the means to PvP without getting effected negatively people will not be as inclined to be murders as they were in UO. Why take a penalty for doing something when you can do it in a way that will result in no penalty and the exact opposite in fact. You get rewarded.
So yes it is FFA PvP with consequences but the factions are also an Integral part of it. It's a whole package that seems to have exactly what was missing from UO in the PvP department. People can still gank and grief but those that do so within there own faction will be limited. Zergs will also be harder to form, notice I said harder not impossible.
Anyways yes there website is outdated, the info comes in the form of the Dev journals on Warcry and interviews.
As far as what Camera view DarkFall will use............ pretty much everyone knows oO. Tight 3rd person view while you have a melee weapon out 1st person view with ranged or magic as well as the default view with nothing drawn. Mounted will be free look 3rd.
This has been explained many times in many places by Aventurine.
Check out the Dev journals and interviews and look at these links.
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=16052
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=43318
And lastly read up on the news section for a bit more info. Anyways I hope this has helped.
Edited to add: Most faqs and such on main sites are generaly a bit vauge especially for a game not yet released. This is just an industry standard. More info will be found in stickies, news, and updates than the official faqs and feature lists because they are just general info and overviews.
Hmmm. That sound a lot more like Dark Age of Camelot RvR, except they allow PK's, if someone really wants the hassle of doing that.
That's not near as much freedom as allowing Players to decide who the Factions are, like in Shadowbane.
LOL I don't even know why I'm replying to you any more. You're obviously in denial. I still wish you would answer the question. Why is it such a big deal that you want a level based game?
I like both level based games, and skill based games. If it's a skill base game, I find it more fun if I can earn skill points, and buy which skills I want, and also spend skill points to raise which skills I want, rather than buy skills with money, then raise them with use.
However, a skill system where you don't spend skill points, but you raise skills with use can be fun too. I played Dungeon Siege, and it was fun.
I just think spending skill points is them more sophisticated and elegant solution. Repetitive actions to raise a skill, like in Dungeon Siege just seems simplistic to me. But simplistic can also be fun.
No matter how you slice it, I"m pretty sure that Skill system doesn't mean that it MUST be a system where you raise skills by using them. I'll make a topic in the General Discussion area, and see what we get.
With your PvP concerns the way it works is there are 3 factions Alfar make up one faction, Mahirim and Orc make up another, Human, Mirdain and Dwarf make up the 3rd faction. Killing those within your own factions results in a negative hit to your faction standing killing those outside of your faction results into a boost to your faction. There is FFA PvP, which means anyone can be attacked anywhere, the problem with fighting in a city though is that the Guards will come after you lol.
Also full loot being in the game adds a consequence that is the best in the industry imo. You won't be considerd evil aligned unless you are killing those within your own faction which would make you a penalty free target for those within your factions. You will not be able to use towns or NPC's associated with that faction either. The devil is in the details and this is the only point UO failed on, there wasn't a standard set way to PK without becoming a murderer which led to 2 factions murderers and innocent. In DarkFall there will still be Murderers and Innocent players but with the means to PvP without getting effected negatively people will not be as inclined to be murders as they were in UO. Why take a penalty for doing something when you can do it in a way that will result in no penalty and the exact opposite in fact. You get rewarded.
So yes it is FFA PvP with consequences but the factions are also an Integral part of it. It's a whole package that seems to have exactly what was missing from UO in the PvP department. People can still gank and grief but those that do so within there own faction will be limited. Zergs will also be harder to form, notice I said harder not impossible.
Anyways yes there website is outdated, the info comes in the form of the Dev journals on Warcry and interviews.
As far as what Camera view DarkFall will use............ pretty much everyone knows oO. Tight 3rd person view while you have a melee weapon out 1st person view with ranged or magic as well as the default view with nothing drawn. Mounted will be free look 3rd.
This has been explained many times in many places by Aventurine.
Check out the Dev journals and interviews and look at these links.
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=16052
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=43318
And lastly read up on the news section for a bit more info. Anyways I hope this has helped.
Edited to add: Most faqs and such on main sites are generaly a bit vauge especially for a game not yet released. This is just an industry standard. More info will be found in stickies, news, and updates than the official faqs and feature lists because they are just general info and overviews.
Hmmm. That sound a lot more like Dark Age of Camelot RvR, except they allow PK's, if someone really wants the hassle of doing that.
That's not near as much freedom as allowing Players to decide who the Factions are, like in Shadowbane.
All race clans are allowed. You aren't forced to do anything, the freedom is there. They just added some risks to it. Which I honestly like. It is similar to RvR in ways but not RvR in others, while the factions are in place the limitations are not. You can party with enemy races, be in clans with them, help them, kill them, just as you can with those within your own faction.
Here's what other have to say about skill systems vs LEVEL based systems.
the consensus seems to be that you can LEVEL in a class system or a SKILL system. The difference is whether you have a ClASS system, or SKILL system.
If you earn skill points and spend them on skills, it's still a SKILL system, and not a CLASS system.
That is true as long as there is not a class. If I am a White Mage then I am a class regardless if I can spend skill points because I must remain within the boundries of a White mage then it is not a pure class system it is a hybrid that still spends it's main focus on class.
That is true as long as there is not a class. If I am a White Mage then I am a class regardless if I can spend skill points because I must remain within the boundries of a White mage then it is not a pure class system it is a hybrid that still spends it's main focus on class.
Which is why Dameonkdoesn't make much sense.
He's saying that only Darkfall is a skill system, because you raise skills by using them, but a system where you spend points on skills is a level system.
But won't you have skill LEVELS in Darkfall?
What's your sword skill?
What's your fireball skill?
Aren't you going to say, level 3, or level 100? How does it matter how it got to that level? Either way it's a skill system.
With a Level system, you pick a class, adn then as you increase in level, the game picks your new abilities for you, or gives you a small list to choose from bases on yoru class.