Here's what other have to say about skill systems vs LEVEL based systems. the consensus seems to be that you can LEVEL in a class system or a SKILL system. The difference is whether you have a ClASS system, or SKILL system. If you earn skill points and spend them on skills, it's still a SKILL system, and not a CLASS system.
That is true as long as there is not a class. If I am a White Mage then I am a class regardless if I can spend skill points because I must remain within the boundries of a White mage then it is not a pure class system it is a hybrid that still spends it's main focus on class.
Which is why Dameonkdoesn't make much sense.
He's saying that only Darkfall is a skill system, because you raise skills by using them, but a system where you spend points on skills is a level system.
But won't you have skill LEVELS in Darkfall?
What's your sword skill?
What's your fireball skill?
Aren't you going to say, level 3, or level 100? How does it matter how it got to that level? Either way it's a skill system.
With a Level system, you pick a class, adn then as you increase in level, the game picks your new abilities for you, or gives you a small list to choose from bases on yoru class.
Honestly I am not clear on what you are getting at.
It's a skill point system, you can have 100 skill points in sword or 50 points in Archery.... there isn't a level it's skill points.
Levels would be more like I am a level 9 warrior or I am a level 10 Druid.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp Which is why Dameonkdoesn't make much sense. He's saying that only Darkfall is a skill system, because you raise skills by using them, but a system where you spend points on skills is a level system. But won't you have skill LEVELS in Darkfall? What's your sword skill? What's your fireball skill? Aren't you going to say, level 3, or level 100? How does it matter how it got to that level? Either way it's a skill system. With a Level system, you pick a class, adn then as you increase in level, the game picks your new abilities for you, or gives you a small list to choose from bases on yoru class.
Not really. I assume you have played WoW which has a limited nested skill system, you wouldn't say I have level 252 in 2 handed weapons would you?
I would say it's like the difference between analogue and digital. Digital either it's on or it's off, with analogue there is much more subtle graduation. Skill is still digital really but the incrementation is much more finely tuned.
Here's what other have to say about skill systems vs LEVEL based systems. the consensus seems to be that you can LEVEL in a class system or a SKILL system. The difference is whether you have a ClASS system, or SKILL system. If you earn skill points and spend them on skills, it's still a SKILL system, and not a CLASS system.
That is true as long as there is not a class. If I am a White Mage then I am a class regardless if I can spend skill points because I must remain within the boundries of a White mage then it is not a pure class system it is a hybrid that still spends it's main focus on class.
Which is why Dameonk doesn't make much sense.
He's saying that only Darkfall is a skill system, because you raise skills by using them, but a system where you spend points on skills is a level system.
But won't you have skill LEVELS in Darkfall?
What's your sword skill?
What's your fireball skill?
Aren't you going to say, level 3, or level 100? How does it matter how it got to that level? Either way it's a skill system.
With a Level system, you pick a class, adn then as you increase in level, the game picks your new abilities for you, or gives you a small list to choose from bases on yoru class.
Honestly I am not clear on what you are getting at.
It's a skill point system, you can have 100 skill points in sword or 50 points in Archery.... there isn't a level it's skill points.
Levels would be more like I am a level 9 warrior or I am a level 10 Druid.
I agree. I was arguing with Damoenk. He said that unless your skills increase by using them, it's a level system, not a skill system.
I was saying that both are skill systems, whether you spend skill points, or use a skill to get better at it, either way that's a skill system, not a level system.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp I agree. I was arguing with Damoenk. He said that unless your skills increase by using them, it's a level system, not a skill system. I was saying that both are skill systems, whether you spend skill points, or use a skill to get better at it, either way that's a skill system, not a level system.
The problem I see with what you saying is when are you going to hand out the points? If it's in batches then basically it's still a level system in all but name. If it's gradually then who wants to stop every few minutes / seconds to readjust their skills?
Originally posted by Ihmotepp I agree. I was arguing with Damoenk. He said that unless your skills increase by using them, it's a level system, not a skill system. I was saying that both are skill systems, whether you spend skill points, or use a skill to get better at it, either way that's a skill system, not a level system.
The problem I see with what you saying is when are you going to hand out the points? If it's in batches then basically it's still a level system in all but name. If it's gradually then who wants to stop every few minutes / seconds to readjust their skills?
I don't see the difference in a use based system. You swing your sword 8,432,166 times, and your sword skill increases.
You want to get even better at sword skill? Swing your sword another 8,432,166 times. That's getting better in batches, right?
Originally posted by Ihmotepp I don't see the difference in a use based system. You swing your sword 8,432,166 times, and your sword skill increases. You want to get even better at sword skill? Swing your sword another 8,432,166 times. That's getting better in batches, right?
Yes it is, but the batches very very small and only apply to the skill you are using, in fact it's not really a batch at all in my mind as you only get 1 point. In my previous analogy it is like the analog system. Have you played WoW? If so would you describe the weapons skill as a levelling system? Personally I wouldn't, except for the aspect of it being restricted by the main levelling system.
Explain how in your proposed system the aquiring and spending of points would work. How often would you have the opportunity to spend points? Would you get point one at a time or in batches of mulitiple points? I am only refering to video games not pen and paper.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp I agree. I was arguing with Damoenk. He said that unless your skills increase by using them, it's a level system, not a skill system. I was saying that both are skill systems, whether you spend skill points, or use a skill to get better at it, either way that's a skill system, not a level system.
The termonology to describe the different systems was never my point. It was the mechanics behind the systems. You can call the different advancement systems whatever you want, but in the end, one is based on gaining skills by using them, and the other is based on gaining XP to earn more skill points.
I think I might finally understand what you are trying to say... maybe.
I think what you are saying is that even though in Fallout 3, for example, you gain XP and levels to obtain more skill points your character does not inherently get stronger simply by gaining XP and levels. You must apply the skill points you have gained through leveling for your character to progress.
The same could be said for Darkfall. Even though you don't gain XP or levels, you could argue that gaining skills in Darkfall is similar to gaining XP. The more "skill" xp you get, the better you get at using a sword, for example.
The difference is the execution. Where Darkfall does not have any character levels or character XP that you gain, the other type of skill gain system does. It has to have these or there would be no way to know when you should be gaining skill points.
Also, my personal opinion is the Darkfall system leads itself to a more natural gameplay experience. Where you just go play the game instead of worrying about grinding XP and levels to gain more skill points.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Originally posted by Ihmotepp I agree. I was arguing with Damoenk. He said that unless your skills increase by using them, it's a level system, not a skill system. I was saying that both are skill systems, whether you spend skill points, or use a skill to get better at it, either way that's a skill system, not a level system.
The problem I see with what you saying is when are you going to hand out the points? If it's in batches then basically it's still a level system in all but name. If it's gradually then who wants to stop every few minutes / seconds to readjust their skills?
You can most probably call it a hybrid, it's not a clear level system, nor a skill one.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp I agree. I was arguing with Damoenk. He said that unless your skills increase by using them, it's a level system, not a skill system. I was saying that both are skill systems, whether you spend skill points, or use a skill to get better at it, either way that's a skill system, not a level system.
The termonology to describe the different systems was never my point. It was the mechanics behind the systems. You can call the different advancement systems whatever you want, but in the end, one is based on gaining skills by using them, and the other is based on gaining XP to earn more skill points.
I think I might finally understand what you are trying to say... maybe.
I think what you are saying is that even though in Fallout 3, for example, you gain XP and levels to obtain more skill points your character does not inherently get stronger simply by gaining XP and levels. You must apply the skill points you have gained through leveling for your character to progress.
The same could be said for Darkfall. Even though you don't gain XP or levels, you could argue that gaining skills in Darkfall is similar to gaining XP. The more "skill" xp you get, the better you get at using a sword, for example.
The difference is the execution. Where Darkfall does not have any character levels or character XP that you gain, the other type of skill gain system does. It has to have these or there would be no way to know when you should be gaining skill points.
Also, my personal opinion is the Darkfall system leads itself to a more natural gameplay experience. Where you just go play the game instead of worrying about grinding XP and levels to gain more skill points.
Yes, that's pretty much it.
In a skill system like Darkfall, you pick which skills you will increase by using them. If I want my sword skill to go up, I swing my sword a lot. If I want my lockpicking skills to go up, I pick a lot of locks.
Here's the Big Difference in the two systems:
In a USE system, like Darkfall, you have to choose the skills you want to go up IN THE BEGINNING of earning XP (using the skill over and over till it goes up). In a spend points system, you get to choose the skills to increase AT THE END of earning XP.
And here's where we differ on the "more natural" point:
I understand what you are saying. Hey, I just use my sword, and I get better at it. What could be more "natural"?
But here's where I'm coming from:
I don't want to play a "thief" type of character. So I don't want to spend time doing a bunch of "thief" type activities, like picking pockets, hiding in shadows, picking locks, back stabbing, etc.
However, I get to the bottom of a Dungeon, and a door I want access to is locked. I try to pick the lock and I get "you fail. You must have locking picking at 65 to pick this lock" (or whatever indication I get my skill is not high enough).
Now, I decide, I don't like this situation, and I want to be able from now on to pick locks. I don't want to pick locks all the time. It's not what I like to spend my time doing in the game. However, I DO want to pick some locks at the bottom of certain dungeons.
Now, with a spend points system, I SPEND POINTS AT THE END of earning XP. So, I earn enough points to spend some XP, and BINGO! I'm picking the Lockpicking Skill to spend my points on.
OK, with the use skills to increase system, I can't do that. The only way I can now get good at locking picking, good enough to pick this lock at the bottom of the dungeon, which I Want to do, is to pick locks, over and over and over.
So what do I do? Something my character would not do, I go pick every lock I can find. Not because I want to get in the locked door, not because it's just something I would do "naturally" but because I want the lockpicking skill raised.
So I pick every door, chest, every lock in the game I can find, over and over and over, till I get my lockpicking skill up. THEN back down to the dungeon, and pick the lock I actually want to pick.
That is not "natural". At least not to me.
And I know for a fact I'm not the only one that's going to do this. People will find a skill they need, then to raise it they will do it over and over and over till they get it where they want it.
That is not "natural". That's repetitition to raise skills. What would be more "natural" is that I do whatever it is in the game I feel like, THEN AT THE END of gaining xp, I spend it on whichever skills I need. At tleast to me.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp I agree. I was arguing with Damoenk. He said that unless your skills increase by using them, it's a level system, not a skill system. I was saying that both are skill systems, whether you spend skill points, or use a skill to get better at it, either way that's a skill system, not a level system.
The termonology to describe the different systems was never my point. It was the mechanics behind the systems. You can call the different advancement systems whatever you want, but in the end, one is based on gaining skills by using them, and the other is based on gaining XP to earn more skill points.
I think I might finally understand what you are trying to say... maybe.
I think what you are saying is that even though in Fallout 3, for example, you gain XP and levels to obtain more skill points your character does not inherently get stronger simply by gaining XP and levels. You must apply the skill points you have gained through leveling for your character to progress.
The same could be said for Darkfall. Even though you don't gain XP or levels, you could argue that gaining skills in Darkfall is similar to gaining XP. The more "skill" xp you get, the better you get at using a sword, for example.
The difference is the execution. Where Darkfall does not have any character levels or character XP that you gain, the other type of skill gain system does. It has to have these or there would be no way to know when you should be gaining skill points.
Also, my personal opinion is the Darkfall system leads itself to a more natural gameplay experience. Where you just go play the game instead of worrying about grinding XP and levels to gain more skill points.
Yes, that's pretty much it.
In a skill system like Darkfall, you pick which skills you will increase by using them. If I want my sword skill to go up, I swing my sword a lot. If I want my lockpicking skills to go up, I pick a lot of locks.
Here's the Big Difference in the two systems:
In a USE system, like Darkfall, you have to choose the skills you want to go up IN THE BEGINNING of earning XP (using the skill over and over till it goes up). In a spend points system, you get to choose the skills to increase AT THE END of earning XP.
And here's where we differ on the "more natural" point:
I understand what you are saying. Hey, I just use my sword, and I get better at it. What could be more "natural"?
But here's where I'm coming from:
I don't want to play a "thief" type of character. So I don't want to spend time doing a bunch of "thief" type activities, like picking pockets, hiding in shadows, picking locks, back stabbing, etc.
However, I get to the bottom of a Dungeon, and a door I want access to is locked. I try to pick the lock and I get "you fail. You must have locking picking at 65 to pick this lock" (or whatever indication I get my skill is not high enough).
Now, I decide, I don't like this situation, and I want to be able from now on to pick locks. I don't want to pick locks all the time. It's not what I like to spend my time doing in the game. However, I DO want to pick some locks at the bottom of certain dungeons.
Now, with a spend points system, I SPEND POINTS AT THE END of earning XP. So, I earn enough points to spend some XP, and BINGO! I'm picking the Lockpicking Skill to spend my points on.
OK, with the use skills to increase system, I can't do that. The only way I can now get good at locking picking, good enough to pick this lock at the bottom of the dungeon, which I Want to do, is to pick locks, over and over and over.
So what do I do? Something my character would not do, I go pick every lock I can find. Not because I want to get in the locked door, not because it's just something I would do "naturally" but because I want the lockpicking skill raised.
So I pick every door, chest, every lock in the game I can find, over and over and over, till I get my lockpicking skill up. THEN back down to the dungeon, and pick the lock I actually want to pick.
That is not "natural". At least not to me.
And I know for a fact I'm not the only one that's going to do this. People will find a skill they need, then to raise it they will do it over and over and over till they get it where they want it.
That is not "natural". That's repetitition to raise skills. What would be more "natural" is that I do whatever it is in the game I feel like, THEN AT THE END of gaining xp, I spend it on whichever skills I need. At tleast to me.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill.
That isn't less natural. It's natural because in order to be good at something you have to practice it. Thats natural lol. Saying ok I went and killed goblins with my sword for 200xp letting me put poits in my magic skill isn't.
For w/e reason your trying to pass an unatural system as natural. And saying that a natural system is not at the same time. If you want to be good at something you should have to use it, the more you use it the better you get at it. That is natural.
The way skillups work in DarkFall promotes playing the game vs just doing things to advance your skills. Sure if I want to go kill goblins and a friend of mine wants to work on his lock picking skill he might not want to go with me, but why would that stop me and him from going to a dungeon that has locked chests and mobs to kill so that we could do both at the same time.
Besides you are also forgetting that you wouldn't just be skilling up swords. Theres a lot of skills you would be using durring this. Healing if you have it, ranged, melee, running, maybe swimming, Parry, block, shield, any spells, w/e you use.
If you want to skill up in DarkFall it isn't just about the normal grind, with the skill system in DarkFall you can advance without trying to. You go out and do what you want where you want and the skills can come completely natural. With the skill system you are talking about you have to grind. You go out and kill mobs over and over to get xp which gives you skill points which you can spend in skills you didn't even use oO.
I am sorry DF's skill system is natural to me and is one I like. The one you are talking about is not and forces a grind because it includes levels. Go to area A till your level 10 at level 10 go to area B ect ect.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
The way skillups work in DarkFall promotes playing the game vs just doing things to advance your skills.
How? I want to advance my bow skill. I'm going to shoot my bow, over and over, even at things that would be easier to kill with a sword, to advance my bow skill.
How does this promote playing the game vs just doing things to advance your skills? EVERYTHING you do in DF will be to advance your skill, since use = skill increase.
Sure, I could kill that mob from a distance with my bow and never take a point o damage, but I want to increase my sword skill. I'm whacking every mob I see with my sword so it will increase.
That promotes just playing the game? I don't see it.
I am sure that the penalties for ganking will be severe and players who gank will take a faction hit. The quote seems clear on that. I am sure whatever they come up with will be reasonable. However, I believe that the faction hit should affect the entire account not just the ganker character. I saw too many notorious pk characters in UO that had an equivalent baby blue goodie two-shoes in the same account. Somehow that is wrong. If you are going to play a ganker, you should take the penalties to the whole account. I know that doesnt stop anyone from getting a second account for their sweet nice characters and vice versa but so be it. I think in principle, the whole account should take a faction hit.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Sort of a mix between both. They go to the gym, but they also fight other novices, then, after time, more and more skilled boxers.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm just saying I don't think it's natural to be better with my sword after shooting something with a bow.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Sort of a mix between both. They go to the gym, but they also fight other novices, then, after time, more and more skilled boxers.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm just saying I don't think it's natural to be better with my sword after shooting something with a bow.
Look at the link. What's your answer to the poll? How is that "natural"?
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Sort of a mix between both. They go to the gym, but they also fight other novices, then, after time, more and more skilled boxers.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm just saying I don't think it's natural to be better with my sword after shooting something with a bow.
Look at the link. What's your answer to the poll? How is that "natural"?
I looked, I voted too, I said "stick with sword".
I don't think I understand what you are getting at though.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Sort of a mix between both. They go to the gym, but they also fight other novices, then, after time, more and more skilled boxers.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm just saying I don't think it's natural to be better with my sword after shooting something with a bow.
Look at the link. What's your answer to the poll? How is that "natural"?
I looked, I voted too, I said "stick with sword".
I don't think I understand what you are getting at though.
CAn you think of any real life situation where you would act like this? What I'm getting at, is everyone picks the Sword, because they want to raise their sword skill.
That's exactly what I would do, because my guild friend is making me a badass sword.
But in the real world, you would NEVER do this, it's completely unnatural.
You would use the Hammer, every time, because it's more effective. You would never use a less effective weapon just because you wanted to increase your skill in the real world.
That's what I'm getting at.
IN a system where you spend skill points, it wouldn't matter, so you would use the Hammer, since it's more effective. This would be, IMO, more natural.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Sort of a mix between both. They go to the gym, but they also fight other novices, then, after time, more and more skilled boxers.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm just saying I don't think it's natural to be better with my sword after shooting something with a bow.
Look at the link. What's your answer to the poll? How is that "natural"?
I looked, I voted too, I said "stick with sword".
I don't think I understand what you are getting at though.
CAn you think of any real life situation where you would act like this? What I'm getting at, is everyone picks the Sword, because they want to raise their sword skill.
That's exactly what I would do, because my guild friend is making me a badass sword.
But in the real world, you would NEVER do this, it's completely unnatural.
You would use the Hammer, every time, because it's more effective. You would never use a less effective weapon just because you wanted to increase your skill in the real world.
That's what I'm getting at.
IN a system where you spend skill points, it wouldn't matter, so you would use the Hammer, since it's more effective. This would be, IMO, more natural.
Ok, I see where you're coming from now, and I think I still disagree.
My reasoning being; even in real life I would do something that may be less beneficial short term for longer term gains. I would think of using the less DPS sword in lieu of the higher DPS hammer as a short term investment since I will be getting a better sword soon and will start using it with more profeciency.
Now the story completely changes if the hammer is much more powerful than the sword your guildie is making for you since there would be no foreseeable return in leveling you swordsmanship skills.
I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this one, but at least now I understand what you mean.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Sort of a mix between both. They go to the gym, but they also fight other novices, then, after time, more and more skilled boxers.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm just saying I don't think it's natural to be better with my sword after shooting something with a bow.
Look at the link. What's your answer to the poll? How is that "natural"?
I looked, I voted too, I said "stick with sword".
I don't think I understand what you are getting at though.
CAn you think of any real life situation where you would act like this? What I'm getting at, is everyone picks the Sword, because they want to raise their sword skill.
That's exactly what I would do, because my guild friend is making me a badass sword.
But in the real world, you would NEVER do this, it's completely unnatural.
You would use the Hammer, every time, because it's more effective. You would never use a less effective weapon just because you wanted to increase your skill in the real world.
That's what I'm getting at.
IN a system where you spend skill points, it wouldn't matter, so you would use the Hammer, since it's more effective. This would be, IMO, more natural.
Ok, I see where you're coming from now, and I think I still disagree.
My reasoning being; even in real life I would do something that may be less beneficial short term for longer term gains. I would think of using the less DPS sword in lieu of the higher DPS hammer as a short term investment since I will be getting a better sword soon and will start using it with more profeciency.
Now the story completely changes if the hammer is much more powerful than the sword your guildie is making for you since there would be no foreseeable return in leveling you swordsmanship skills.
I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this one, but at least now I understand what you mean.
I am sure that the penalties for ganking will be severe and players who gank will take a faction hit. The quote seems clear on that. I am sure whatever they come up with will be reasonable. However, I believe that the faction hit should affect the entire account not just the ganker character. I saw too many notorious pk characters in UO that had an equivalent baby blue goodie two-shoes in the same account. Somehow that is wrong. If you are going to play a ganker, you should take the penalties to the whole account. I know that doesnt stop anyone from getting a second account for their sweet nice characters and vice versa but so be it. I think in principle, the whole account should take a faction hit.
Just my 2 cents.
As I understand it, you only get one character per account, so this will not be a problem.
I am sure that the penalties for ganking will be severe and players who gank will take a faction hit. The quote seems clear on that. I am sure whatever they come up with will be reasonable. However, I believe that the faction hit should affect the entire account not just the ganker character. I saw too many notorious pk characters in UO that had an equivalent baby blue goodie two-shoes in the same account. Somehow that is wrong. If you are going to play a ganker, you should take the penalties to the whole account. I know that doesnt stop anyone from getting a second account for their sweet nice characters and vice versa but so be it. I think in principle, the whole account should take a faction hit.
Just my 2 cents.
As I understand it, you only get one character per account, so this will not be a problem.
Comments
That is true as long as there is not a class. If I am a White Mage then I am a class regardless if I can spend skill points because I must remain within the boundries of a White mage then it is not a pure class system it is a hybrid that still spends it's main focus on class.
Which is why Dameonkdoesn't make much sense.
He's saying that only Darkfall is a skill system, because you raise skills by using them, but a system where you spend points on skills is a level system.
But won't you have skill LEVELS in Darkfall?
What's your sword skill?
What's your fireball skill?
Aren't you going to say, level 3, or level 100? How does it matter how it got to that level? Either way it's a skill system.
With a Level system, you pick a class, adn then as you increase in level, the game picks your new abilities for you, or gives you a small list to choose from bases on yoru class.
Honestly I am not clear on what you are getting at.
It's a skill point system, you can have 100 skill points in sword or 50 points in Archery.... there isn't a level it's skill points.
Levels would be more like I am a level 9 warrior or I am a level 10 Druid.
Not really. I assume you have played WoW which has a limited nested skill system, you wouldn't say I have level 252 in 2 handed weapons would you?
I would say it's like the difference between analogue and digital. Digital either it's on or it's off, with analogue there is much more subtle graduation. Skill is still digital really but the incrementation is much more finely tuned.
That is true as long as there is not a class. If I am a White Mage then I am a class regardless if I can spend skill points because I must remain within the boundries of a White mage then it is not a pure class system it is a hybrid that still spends it's main focus on class.
Which is why Dameonk doesn't make much sense.
He's saying that only Darkfall is a skill system, because you raise skills by using them, but a system where you spend points on skills is a level system.
But won't you have skill LEVELS in Darkfall?
What's your sword skill?
What's your fireball skill?
Aren't you going to say, level 3, or level 100? How does it matter how it got to that level? Either way it's a skill system.
With a Level system, you pick a class, adn then as you increase in level, the game picks your new abilities for you, or gives you a small list to choose from bases on yoru class.
Honestly I am not clear on what you are getting at.
It's a skill point system, you can have 100 skill points in sword or 50 points in Archery.... there isn't a level it's skill points.
Levels would be more like I am a level 9 warrior or I am a level 10 Druid.
I agree. I was arguing with Damoenk. He said that unless your skills increase by using them, it's a level system, not a skill system.
I was saying that both are skill systems, whether you spend skill points, or use a skill to get better at it, either way that's a skill system, not a level system.
The problem I see with what you saying is when are you going to hand out the points? If it's in batches then basically it's still a level system in all but name. If it's gradually then who wants to stop every few minutes / seconds to readjust their skills?
The problem I see with what you saying is when are you going to hand out the points? If it's in batches then basically it's still a level system in all but name. If it's gradually then who wants to stop every few minutes / seconds to readjust their skills?
I don't see the difference in a use based system. You swing your sword 8,432,166 times, and your sword skill increases.
You want to get even better at sword skill? Swing your sword another 8,432,166 times. That's getting better in batches, right?
Yes it is, but the batches very very small and only apply to the skill you are using, in fact it's not really a batch at all in my mind as you only get 1 point. In my previous analogy it is like the analog system. Have you played WoW? If so would you describe the weapons skill as a levelling system? Personally I wouldn't, except for the aspect of it being restricted by the main levelling system.
Explain how in your proposed system the aquiring and spending of points would work. How often would you have the opportunity to spend points? Would you get point one at a time or in batches of mulitiple points? I am only refering to video games not pen and paper.
The termonology to describe the different systems was never my point. It was the mechanics behind the systems. You can call the different advancement systems whatever you want, but in the end, one is based on gaining skills by using them, and the other is based on gaining XP to earn more skill points.
I think I might finally understand what you are trying to say... maybe.
I think what you are saying is that even though in Fallout 3, for example, you gain XP and levels to obtain more skill points your character does not inherently get stronger simply by gaining XP and levels. You must apply the skill points you have gained through leveling for your character to progress.
The same could be said for Darkfall. Even though you don't gain XP or levels, you could argue that gaining skills in Darkfall is similar to gaining XP. The more "skill" xp you get, the better you get at using a sword, for example.
The difference is the execution. Where Darkfall does not have any character levels or character XP that you gain, the other type of skill gain system does. It has to have these or there would be no way to know when you should be gaining skill points.
Also, my personal opinion is the Darkfall system leads itself to a more natural gameplay experience. Where you just go play the game instead of worrying about grinding XP and levels to gain more skill points.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
The problem I see with what you saying is when are you going to hand out the points? If it's in batches then basically it's still a level system in all but name. If it's gradually then who wants to stop every few minutes / seconds to readjust their skills?
You can most probably call it a hybrid, it's not a clear level system, nor a skill one.
The termonology to describe the different systems was never my point. It was the mechanics behind the systems. You can call the different advancement systems whatever you want, but in the end, one is based on gaining skills by using them, and the other is based on gaining XP to earn more skill points.
I think I might finally understand what you are trying to say... maybe.
I think what you are saying is that even though in Fallout 3, for example, you gain XP and levels to obtain more skill points your character does not inherently get stronger simply by gaining XP and levels. You must apply the skill points you have gained through leveling for your character to progress.
The same could be said for Darkfall. Even though you don't gain XP or levels, you could argue that gaining skills in Darkfall is similar to gaining XP. The more "skill" xp you get, the better you get at using a sword, for example.
The difference is the execution. Where Darkfall does not have any character levels or character XP that you gain, the other type of skill gain system does. It has to have these or there would be no way to know when you should be gaining skill points.
Also, my personal opinion is the Darkfall system leads itself to a more natural gameplay experience. Where you just go play the game instead of worrying about grinding XP and levels to gain more skill points.
Yes, that's pretty much it.
In a skill system like Darkfall, you pick which skills you will increase by using them. If I want my sword skill to go up, I swing my sword a lot. If I want my lockpicking skills to go up, I pick a lot of locks.
Here's the Big Difference in the two systems:
In a USE system, like Darkfall, you have to choose the skills you want to go up IN THE BEGINNING of earning XP (using the skill over and over till it goes up). In a spend points system, you get to choose the skills to increase AT THE END of earning XP.
And here's where we differ on the "more natural" point:
I understand what you are saying. Hey, I just use my sword, and I get better at it. What could be more "natural"?
But here's where I'm coming from:
I don't want to play a "thief" type of character. So I don't want to spend time doing a bunch of "thief" type activities, like picking pockets, hiding in shadows, picking locks, back stabbing, etc.
However, I get to the bottom of a Dungeon, and a door I want access to is locked. I try to pick the lock and I get "you fail. You must have locking picking at 65 to pick this lock" (or whatever indication I get my skill is not high enough).
Now, I decide, I don't like this situation, and I want to be able from now on to pick locks. I don't want to pick locks all the time. It's not what I like to spend my time doing in the game. However, I DO want to pick some locks at the bottom of certain dungeons.
Now, with a spend points system, I SPEND POINTS AT THE END of earning XP. So, I earn enough points to spend some XP, and BINGO! I'm picking the Lockpicking Skill to spend my points on.
OK, with the use skills to increase system, I can't do that. The only way I can now get good at locking picking, good enough to pick this lock at the bottom of the dungeon, which I Want to do, is to pick locks, over and over and over.
So what do I do? Something my character would not do, I go pick every lock I can find. Not because I want to get in the locked door, not because it's just something I would do "naturally" but because I want the lockpicking skill raised.
So I pick every door, chest, every lock in the game I can find, over and over and over, till I get my lockpicking skill up. THEN back down to the dungeon, and pick the lock I actually want to pick.
That is not "natural". At least not to me.
And I know for a fact I'm not the only one that's going to do this. People will find a skill they need, then to raise it they will do it over and over and over till they get it where they want it.
That is not "natural". That's repetitition to raise skills. What would be more "natural" is that I do whatever it is in the game I feel like, THEN AT THE END of gaining xp, I spend it on whichever skills I need. At tleast to me.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
The termonology to describe the different systems was never my point. It was the mechanics behind the systems. You can call the different advancement systems whatever you want, but in the end, one is based on gaining skills by using them, and the other is based on gaining XP to earn more skill points.
I think I might finally understand what you are trying to say... maybe.
I think what you are saying is that even though in Fallout 3, for example, you gain XP and levels to obtain more skill points your character does not inherently get stronger simply by gaining XP and levels. You must apply the skill points you have gained through leveling for your character to progress.
The same could be said for Darkfall. Even though you don't gain XP or levels, you could argue that gaining skills in Darkfall is similar to gaining XP. The more "skill" xp you get, the better you get at using a sword, for example.
The difference is the execution. Where Darkfall does not have any character levels or character XP that you gain, the other type of skill gain system does. It has to have these or there would be no way to know when you should be gaining skill points.
Also, my personal opinion is the Darkfall system leads itself to a more natural gameplay experience. Where you just go play the game instead of worrying about grinding XP and levels to gain more skill points.
Yes, that's pretty much it.
In a skill system like Darkfall, you pick which skills you will increase by using them. If I want my sword skill to go up, I swing my sword a lot. If I want my lockpicking skills to go up, I pick a lot of locks.
Here's the Big Difference in the two systems:
In a USE system, like Darkfall, you have to choose the skills you want to go up IN THE BEGINNING of earning XP (using the skill over and over till it goes up). In a spend points system, you get to choose the skills to increase AT THE END of earning XP.
And here's where we differ on the "more natural" point:
I understand what you are saying. Hey, I just use my sword, and I get better at it. What could be more "natural"?
But here's where I'm coming from:
I don't want to play a "thief" type of character. So I don't want to spend time doing a bunch of "thief" type activities, like picking pockets, hiding in shadows, picking locks, back stabbing, etc.
However, I get to the bottom of a Dungeon, and a door I want access to is locked. I try to pick the lock and I get "you fail. You must have locking picking at 65 to pick this lock" (or whatever indication I get my skill is not high enough).
Now, I decide, I don't like this situation, and I want to be able from now on to pick locks. I don't want to pick locks all the time. It's not what I like to spend my time doing in the game. However, I DO want to pick some locks at the bottom of certain dungeons.
Now, with a spend points system, I SPEND POINTS AT THE END of earning XP. So, I earn enough points to spend some XP, and BINGO! I'm picking the Lockpicking Skill to spend my points on.
OK, with the use skills to increase system, I can't do that. The only way I can now get good at locking picking, good enough to pick this lock at the bottom of the dungeon, which I Want to do, is to pick locks, over and over and over.
So what do I do? Something my character would not do, I go pick every lock I can find. Not because I want to get in the locked door, not because it's just something I would do "naturally" but because I want the lockpicking skill raised.
So I pick every door, chest, every lock in the game I can find, over and over and over, till I get my lockpicking skill up. THEN back down to the dungeon, and pick the lock I actually want to pick.
That is not "natural". At least not to me.
And I know for a fact I'm not the only one that's going to do this. People will find a skill they need, then to raise it they will do it over and over and over till they get it where they want it.
That is not "natural". That's repetitition to raise skills. What would be more "natural" is that I do whatever it is in the game I feel like, THEN AT THE END of gaining xp, I spend it on whichever skills I need. At tleast to me.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill.
That isn't less natural. It's natural because in order to be good at something you have to practice it. Thats natural lol. Saying ok I went and killed goblins with my sword for 200xp letting me put poits in my magic skill isn't.
For w/e reason your trying to pass an unatural system as natural. And saying that a natural system is not at the same time. If you want to be good at something you should have to use it, the more you use it the better you get at it. That is natural.
The way skillups work in DarkFall promotes playing the game vs just doing things to advance your skills. Sure if I want to go kill goblins and a friend of mine wants to work on his lock picking skill he might not want to go with me, but why would that stop me and him from going to a dungeon that has locked chests and mobs to kill so that we could do both at the same time.
Besides you are also forgetting that you wouldn't just be skilling up swords. Theres a lot of skills you would be using durring this. Healing if you have it, ranged, melee, running, maybe swimming, Parry, block, shield, any spells, w/e you use.
If you want to skill up in DarkFall it isn't just about the normal grind, with the skill system in DarkFall you can advance without trying to. You go out and do what you want where you want and the skills can come completely natural. With the skill system you are talking about you have to grind. You go out and kill mobs over and over to get xp which gives you skill points which you can spend in skills you didn't even use oO.
I am sorry DF's skill system is natural to me and is one I like. The one you are talking about is not and forces a grind because it includes levels. Go to area A till your level 10 at level 10 go to area B ect ect.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
The way skillups work in DarkFall promotes playing the game vs just doing things to advance your skills.
How? I want to advance my bow skill. I'm going to shoot my bow, over and over, even at things that would be easier to kill with a sword, to advance my bow skill.
How does this promote playing the game vs just doing things to advance your skills? EVERYTHING you do in DF will be to advance your skill, since use = skill increase.
Sure, I could kill that mob from a distance with my bow and never take a point o damage, but I want to increase my sword skill. I'm whacking every mob I see with my sword so it will increase.
That promotes just playing the game? I don't see it.
I am sure that the penalties for ganking will be severe and players who gank will take a faction hit. The quote seems clear on that. I am sure whatever they come up with will be reasonable. However, I believe that the faction hit should affect the entire account not just the ganker character. I saw too many notorious pk characters in UO that had an equivalent baby blue goodie two-shoes in the same account. Somehow that is wrong. If you are going to play a ganker, you should take the penalties to the whole account. I know that doesnt stop anyone from getting a second account for their sweet nice characters and vice versa but so be it. I think in principle, the whole account should take a faction hit.
Just my 2 cents.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Look at the votes here:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213677
Is that what you would do in the real world?
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Look at the votes here:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213677
Is that what you would do in the real world?
Sort of a mix between both. They go to the gym, but they also fight other novices, then, after time, more and more skilled boxers.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm just saying I don't think it's natural to be better with my sword after shooting something with a bow.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Look at the votes here:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213677
Is that what you would do in the real world?
Sort of a mix between both. They go to the gym, but they also fight other novices, then, after time, more and more skilled boxers.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm just saying I don't think it's natural to be better with my sword after shooting something with a bow.
Look at the link. What's your answer to the poll? How is that "natural"?
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Look at the votes here:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213677
Is that what you would do in the real world?
Sort of a mix between both. They go to the gym, but they also fight other novices, then, after time, more and more skilled boxers.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm just saying I don't think it's natural to be better with my sword after shooting something with a bow.
Look at the link. What's your answer to the poll? How is that "natural"?
I looked, I voted too, I said "stick with sword".
I don't think I understand what you are getting at though.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Look at the votes here:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213677
Is that what you would do in the real world?
Sort of a mix between both. They go to the gym, but they also fight other novices, then, after time, more and more skilled boxers.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm just saying I don't think it's natural to be better with my sword after shooting something with a bow.
Look at the link. What's your answer to the poll? How is that "natural"?
I looked, I voted too, I said "stick with sword".
I don't think I understand what you are getting at though.
CAn you think of any real life situation where you would act like this? What I'm getting at, is everyone picks the Sword, because they want to raise their sword skill.
That's exactly what I would do, because my guild friend is making me a badass sword.
But in the real world, you would NEVER do this, it's completely unnatural.
You would use the Hammer, every time, because it's more effective. You would never use a less effective weapon just because you wanted to increase your skill in the real world.
That's what I'm getting at.
IN a system where you spend skill points, it wouldn't matter, so you would use the Hammer, since it's more effective. This would be, IMO, more natural.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Look at the votes here:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213677
Is that what you would do in the real world?
Sort of a mix between both. They go to the gym, but they also fight other novices, then, after time, more and more skilled boxers.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm just saying I don't think it's natural to be better with my sword after shooting something with a bow.
Look at the link. What's your answer to the poll? How is that "natural"?
I looked, I voted too, I said "stick with sword".
I don't think I understand what you are getting at though.
CAn you think of any real life situation where you would act like this? What I'm getting at, is everyone picks the Sword, because they want to raise their sword skill.
That's exactly what I would do, because my guild friend is making me a badass sword.
But in the real world, you would NEVER do this, it's completely unnatural.
You would use the Hammer, every time, because it's more effective. You would never use a less effective weapon just because you wanted to increase your skill in the real world.
That's what I'm getting at.
IN a system where you spend skill points, it wouldn't matter, so you would use the Hammer, since it's more effective. This would be, IMO, more natural.
Ok, I see where you're coming from now, and I think I still disagree.
My reasoning being; even in real life I would do something that may be less beneficial short term for longer term gains. I would think of using the less DPS sword in lieu of the higher DPS hammer as a short term investment since I will be getting a better sword soon and will start using it with more profeciency.
Now the story completely changes if the hammer is much more powerful than the sword your guildie is making for you since there would be no foreseeable return in leveling you swordsmanship skills.
I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this one, but at least now I understand what you mean.
Her'es why it's less "natural" to raise skills wiht use, and more restrictive:
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Sure, why not! With the XP i get I can raise my locking picking skill! Lets go!
VS
Hey, come kill some goblins with me!
Do they have locked chests?
Well, no, they don't.
Ok, NVM, I'm raising my locking picking skill, I'm going ot pick some locks. Killing goblins will raise my sword skill, but I already have a high sword skill. l8r.
Imo your analogy is flawed, whilst it is reasonable to use it on explaination of leveling its isn't in a gameplay scenario. You have mixed a combat and tradeskill, then when bringing in the action/fun part you use combat thereby making the 'use system' inferior.
Use the same example again but this time replace lock picking with axe skill and you have a fair example. It's should not be reasonable to expect to level in any tradeskill for combat playtime. Their arn't many people who would champion such a system, the 2 activities are different and require such radically different play it is unreasonable and unfair to expect to adavance in 1 from the other. I can't think of a single game where you could do it, not even WoW.
easy.
Arrows work best if you can see what you are shooting, so you can get your shots off from a distance before the enemy closes on you. So a twisting cave is not so good for arrows, but an open field is.
Come kill orcs with me in the twisty cave.
No thanks, I'm working on my bow skill. I could kill orcs in the twisty cave, but I don't want to work on my sword skill, it's already high.
Done.
And the analogy isn't flawed because in a spend points system, you COULD kill orcs, and use the XP to raise your lockpicking skills. I'm doing it right now in Fallout 3.
Right, but it's still not natural.
Let me try an analogy.
I go to the gym, I work upper body, I gain upper body strength. This = natural
Your system
I go to the gym, I work uper body, my legs get stronger. This = not natural.
While I get what you are trying to explain, I disagree with your natural label.
No, that's not my system. I agree with you that going to the gym would increase your strength, and it's natural.
But we don't put this in the game. Why?
It's boring.
You watch a heavy weight boxing match. Did the guys get good in the ring? No, they got good at the gym, training their butts off.
Your system, is they never go to the gym, they just get good in the ring. That natural? I think not.
My system is I go to the gym for months, train my upper body, and get upper body strength. But to represent this, I spend 3 skill points, I don't do push ups all day in the game.
Look at the votes here:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213677
Is that what you would do in the real world?
Sort of a mix between both. They go to the gym, but they also fight other novices, then, after time, more and more skilled boxers.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm just saying I don't think it's natural to be better with my sword after shooting something with a bow.
Look at the link. What's your answer to the poll? How is that "natural"?
I looked, I voted too, I said "stick with sword".
I don't think I understand what you are getting at though.
CAn you think of any real life situation where you would act like this? What I'm getting at, is everyone picks the Sword, because they want to raise their sword skill.
That's exactly what I would do, because my guild friend is making me a badass sword.
But in the real world, you would NEVER do this, it's completely unnatural.
You would use the Hammer, every time, because it's more effective. You would never use a less effective weapon just because you wanted to increase your skill in the real world.
That's what I'm getting at.
IN a system where you spend skill points, it wouldn't matter, so you would use the Hammer, since it's more effective. This would be, IMO, more natural.
Ok, I see where you're coming from now, and I think I still disagree.
My reasoning being; even in real life I would do something that may be less beneficial short term for longer term gains. I would think of using the less DPS sword in lieu of the higher DPS hammer as a short term investment since I will be getting a better sword soon and will start using it with more profeciency.
Now the story completely changes if the hammer is much more powerful than the sword your guildie is making for you since there would be no foreseeable return in leveling you swordsmanship skills.
I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this one, but at least now I understand what you mean.
Ok, that's all good. It was a hard point to make.
As I understand it, you only get one character per account, so this will not be a problem.
As I understand it, you only get one character per account, so this will not be a problem.
This makes me sad. I have terminal alt-itis.