Atm WAR, if it didn't have the pvp/rvr i would have cancelled after 2days, cause except for the rvr its imo identical to WoW.
Having played online games since 1994
-Muds, Meridian59..etc. EQ, DAoC...
My main beef with WoW, and the permanent changes it has brought to the genre.. is the streamlining of the whole RPG part of the game.
-Set path for advancement; you dont have to explore to find the next new area.
-Boring skills/spells that have simple effects. No skills/spells that aren't aimed at killing; eg levitate,sow,teleport,create food/water those types of thing. Esentially not a living RPG worthy world.
-Limited advancement options, and simplistic spec/mastery system.
-Lack of any sort of mastery of your class, starting an alt should be a major commitment. IMO why alot of players thought the raids(lol) in WoW were hard is because they were full of noobs who got to level cap in a couple of weeks, and didn't know their class/role in group dynamics.
-streamlining/easy mode of various systems; travel, class trainer, cost of training, training new abilities/skills/spells with no pre-req/quest..etc involved. instead we have warrior trainer -> here he can do everything for you with no work on your part and if you dont like your choices you can re-assign your spec with little cost.
- streamlinging of the whole "raid" part of the game. ppl dont realise that raiding began in muds. Raiding was to try kill NPCs that weren't meant to be killed, city guards, merchants, trainers..etc that delt out massive dmg, and could kill any 1 player instantly. Remember priests of discord(EQ). with the raids in WoW, sure they all had their little gimmicks, but were essentially easy(from friends on WoW wotlk "raids" are even easier). Raids should be Epic encounters requiring massive player cooperation. from my WoW experience(pre-bc) the "raids" or instanced dungeons are the same as dungeons from EQ that you level off.
I could go on and on, imo its streamlining/commercialising of the genre Vs actual immersion.. MMOs today are made by businessmen, NOT RPGers.
From a playing perspective on my part, coming from MUDs i thought EQ was a little on the easy side, but the consequences of bad decisions and real danger in the world made it worth it.
I don't hate wow I am just bored of it after 2 years, I sold my account and don't plan to play it again.What I like
A game that is pure PvE exploration and adventure oriented.
A game with a real storyline that is told in cinematics, group raids that tell a story at the end or make a cutcean appear or something like that.
A game where the majority of the playerbase is above 15 years old.
A game where you don't feel like you have to grind to max level to really enjoy the game and get to the "Good stuff"
A game with a lot of players but not so many it becomes impossible to camp mobs you need.
A game with more realistic visuals, cartoony style is not for me.
A game with some great music, and I don't just mean background I mean battle music, Area music, zone music, Mount music, suff like that.
A game with such a large wrold the majority of players will never finish exploring half of it or doing half of the story/ missions on it!
A game that adds content not grind, there is no need to raise level cap every time you add content, do not make the work we did for a year become useless the game should let you keep stuff that you used a year ago still be good and effective in the next expansion, no level cap raises. Add story add missions add content dont add grind.
This is what I want in a mmorpg, and so far FFXI and Guild wars are 2 games that I think together give me all of these things. So that is what I am playing right now, and having a great time too.
you may have noticed in these forums theres a lot of mmo fans that hate wow . i ve been playing mmos on and off since 2001 . i ve proberbly tried nearly all of them with the exception of lineage and the original everquest . i ve also tried a lot of the f2p ones . in my view i dont see a lot wrong in wow . it plays well on the average home system its easy enough to pick up and has a good learning curve . i admit its got a pretty bad community when you compare it to something like lord of the rings (in my view also a great mmo) . so what is it you hate about warcraft and what is it you would rather be playing ? (in my view the best mmos i ve played are warcraft ,warhammer , eve , lord of the rings and city of heroes the worst vaguard , final fantasy and ddo)
The reason that there is so much hatred over WoW is every MMo now has to measure up to it. WoW is an awesome game for what it is, but what a lot of people now want is variety, especially us older WoW vets that are just tired of the same old same old and looking for something new. And ever since Blizzard monopolized the franchise it's become insanely difficult for other MMos to compete.
Take WAR for an example, they just had to add scenarios into the game because they were afraid players wouldn't be able to adapt to open RvR. And I can honestly say scenarios are probably the number one reason why WAR isn't doing so well right now. It's almost destroyed any good reason to venture out into the RvR lakes and compete for territory and this was one of WAR's major themes.
As long as WoW is on top, it seems as if though most of us have nothing but more WoW clones to expect. And since WoW has already pretty much mastered the theme park experience, when players are faced with lackluster imitations, they're also faced with the impression that it would have just been better if they never left WoW in the first place....
(in my view the best mmos i ve played are warcraft ,warhammer , eve , lord of the rings and city of heroes the worst vaguard , final fantasy and ddo)
this is a bad topic because its solely based on opinion. Its funny because in my opinion WoW and WAR are the two most garbage MMO's ever made, and Vanguard is a shining jewel compared to them
The reason that there is so much hatred over WoW is every MMo now has to measure up to it. WoW is an awesome game for what it is, but what a lot of people now want is variety, especially us older WoW vets that are just tired of the same old same old and looking for something new. And ever since Blizzard monopolized the franchise it's become insanely difficult for other MMos to compete. Take WAR for an example, they just had to add scenarios into the game because they were afraid players wouldn't be able to adapt to open RvR. And I can honestly say scenarios are probably the number one reason why WAR isn't doing so well right now. It's almost destroyed any good reason to venture out into the RvR lakes and compete for territory and this was one of WAR's major themes.
Scenarios in Warhammer are popular for a few reasons. A) they offer the fastest advancement in the game, so people gravitate towards them. pretty much everything else in the game is either unfinished, disfunctional or just plain boring.
There is just so much wrong with Warhammer from is driving goal to push players to PvE in some twisted way to promote RvR, to the broken contribution system, lack of realm pride or ownership, no rewards or sense of loss over keeps and battle field objectives, realm imbalances, etc. The list really goes on about what Warhammer is doing wrong in the game. It seems like the devs spent so much time focusing on what past mistakes they wanted to correct, that they just didn't pay attention to what needed to be done right for the game and its players to reach their intended goal.
If you look at the list of what is fun and people enjoy you will see scenarios in the top spots on most lists, often followed by getting burned out with them after doing so many.
I honestly think that even if scenarios were completely removed the results of the game would be almost the exact same. Removing one of the fucntional/fun options in the game wouldn't keep people playing in the RvR areas that they are already opting out of in order to do scenarios which they are sick to death of.
I admit, Blizzard did a lot of things right with WoW, but only a hardcore fanboy would call the game perfect. Truth be told, I've considered WoW overrated since launch, though my big problems with the game are mostly personal reasons...
- Lack of any interesting classes
Eight classes is just a really measly number in my opinion, and despite such a small number and four years of patching, Blizzard STILL can't create any sort of balance? Give me a ****ing break.
Now back to my personal complaint, no class in WoW fits my playstyle. I like to play a melee-DPS class that doesn't go down in just a couple hits (So Rogue is out the window). Some examples are the Samurai in FFXI, Warden in LOTRO, White Lion in WAR, and Mercenary in DAOC. The closest WoW has is an enhancement Shaman, but that's only available to four races in the game, none of which I like.
- Dull character models
Don't get me wrong, I'm ok with the game's graphics style. But just because it's cartoonish, doesn't mean it has to look like trash. Painted-on armor textures and blocky, deformed character models were impressive in 1998, this is 2008. They don't age well either, I took a recent look at some WOTLK screenshots and was shocked to realize how terrible they look after playing WAR and LOTRO.
The lack of diversity among the races is also a complaint I have. On the Alliance side, your choice for a male character is between three roid-monkeys and two midgets. In the end, I always played a female character. Don't pull the "It's the Blizzard art-style" crap, if that's really the reason, then why does the Horde have three slender male races? And why does official artwork depicting Alliance mages show them as being average-sized?
These complaints might sound stupid to some, but to me, they're both very important factors to my enjoyment in an MMO. I hope in the future, Blizzard will give the character models a much-needed face-lift. And before anyone says "But they like to keep the system requirements low", they could just do what Mythic did with DAOC and make the upgraded graphics optional. All I can say is that it would make a far more interesting expansion selling point than "new" (Recycled from other races) hairstyles.
I admit, Blizzard did a lot of things right with WoW, but only a hardcore fanboy would call the game perfect. Truth be told, I've considered WoW overrated since launch, though my big problems with the game are mostly personal reasons... - Lack of any interesting classes Eight classes is just a really measly number in my opinion, and despite such a small number and four years of patching, Blizzard STILL can't create any sort of balance? Give me a ****ing break. Now back to my personal complaint, no class in WoW fits my playstyle. I like to play a melee-DPS class that doesn't go down in just a couple hits (So Rogue is out the window). Some examples are the Samurai in FFXI, Warden in LOTRO, White Lion in WAR, and Mercenary in DAOC. The closest WoW has is an enhancement Shaman, but that's only available to four races in the game, none of which I like.
Melee dps that doesn't go down very easy? At this point there is the warrior, the retribution pally, and the DPS deathknight. All of them are fine dps, melee, and do NOT go down easy at all. I think a fury or arms warrior exactly fits the playstyle you described.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
The reason that there is so much hatred over WoW is every MMo now has to measure up to it. WoW is an awesome game for what it is, but what a lot of people now want is variety, especially us older WoW vets that are just tired of the same old same old and looking for something new. And ever since Blizzard monopolized the franchise it's become insanely difficult for other MMos to compete. Take WAR for an example, they just had to add scenarios into the game because they were afraid players wouldn't be able to adapt to open RvR. And I can honestly say scenarios are probably the number one reason why WAR isn't doing so well right now. It's almost destroyed any good reason to venture out into the RvR lakes and compete for territory and this was one of WAR's major themes.
Scenarios in Warhammer are popular for a few reasons. A) they offer the fastest advancement in the game, so people gravitate towards them. pretty much everything else in the game is either unfinished, disfunctional or just plain boring.
There is just so much wrong with Warhammer from is driving goal to push players to PvE in some twisted way to promote RvR, to the broken contribution system, lack of realm pride or ownership, no rewards or sense of loss over keeps and battle field objectives, realm imbalances, etc. The list really goes on about what Warhammer is doing wrong in the game. It seems like the devs spent so much time focusing on what past mistakes they wanted to correct, that they just didn't pay attention to what needed to be done right for the game and its players to reach their intended goal.
If you look at the list of what is fun and people enjoy you will see scenarios in the top spots on most lists, often followed by getting burned out with them after doing so many.
I honestly think that even if scenarios were completely removed the results of the game would be almost the exact same. Removing one of the fucntional/fun options in the game wouldn't keep people playing in the RvR areas that they are already opting out of in order to do scenarios which they are sick to death of.
Oh I'm not going to argue with what you have to say here, there is just as much wrong with the RvR system itself in WAR as everything else. But personally, the last thing I wanted to see in WAR were boxed up match ups, and the endless grind involved that never seems to play a part to the rest of the game and it's world.
------ I haven't found one decent argument in all the above posts. The only argument I see is: Waaaaahghhjh, Wow stole people from my game and now my servers are empty. Waaaaghgjjkgh, I want those people back to my empty servers. .... and it's all Blizzards fault. No it is not: : you better make better games and than you'll also have a few million players instead of empty servers.
Good to know you obviously didn't read my posts then, because you seem to have ignored the fact that my remarks had nothing to do with that and everything to do with things that actually make sense...
Yay for stupid people acting like they have a clue.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
You guys have too remember that WoW was based on a already popular series of games... Warcraft.... so that alone got alot of ppl into the games... the easy, childish quests and type of characters and the type of ppl that joined got others too start playing... then that grew.... so on and so on and boom... you got this popular game that alot of ppl are crazed on... but you have too remember that alot of ppl that HATE WoW is because they like games that arent filled with Noobs and 12 year old kids that screw up your game play ect... and Those who LOVE WoW are mostly ppl that have never played MMORPG games before and/or are warcraft fans. Personnally i loved warcraft games... but i didnt jump on the WoW bandwaggin cause i noticed right away all the kids and cheaters in the game that just turned me right off... figured ill stick too FFXI and wait for another decent MMORPG too come out... "BUT" even though i didnt like some aspecs of WoW and i didnt want too play it because of it... I still liked some of the other aspecs which are some reasons ppl love that game. I loved the graphics and the type of characters you got too choose from and the customization and the graphix (for that time of MMORPG games anyways) And how simple everything was that even a child could learn too play... (which ended up making the game horrible but at first it was a great idea lol)
I actually find that the more ppl that are in a Game... the less fun the game ends up being... which is y i always try too start characters in Less popular servers... enough too be able too have friends and do quests together and get help and join clans ect... but not enough that ppl start annoying you and drive you nutz and make you want too quit (like a Mall... i love the ones that have a nice crowd... not those cheap outlet malls that are supper crowded....)
"Hardcore mmo fans" don't seem to like anything. They're too l33t for WoW because hating on WoW is what the cool kids on the internets do. Gives them a target to unleash their nerd rage as to why their favourite game isn't nearly as successful or is dying. For bonus geek points, they will compare it to MacDonalds or Britney Spears.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
I don't see EvE or DAoC as being hardcore. If you mean that the game is really challenging and that it's incredibly difficult to advance both time-wise and skill-wise, then no... neither EvE nor DAoC fit that bill.
The old text-based MUDs were hardcore to the point that a lot of people couldn't get into them, not just because of the way the games were structured, but because you had to have a working knowledge of UNIX and the MUD codes in order to play. The complexity and learning curves of these MUDs was much greater than the oldest graphical MMOs. Death penalties could be steep, but it was rewarding to play and advance since it was so difficult. EQ was exciting because it was the first graphical MUD, but unfortunately, it did already start to dumb down some of the learning curve and complexity of the old MUDs.
The last MMO to be released that I can truly categorize as hardcore is AO with its long progression time, IP structure and pretty harsh death penalty (one death means all xp gone in your level... ouch!).
DAoC was fun because it made some things run more smoothly than in the oldest MMOs and MUDs. But it also was the first game to start 'dumbing' down challenges. There is no comparison between DAoC's death penalty and EQ's or AO's for that matter. However, there was still enough in the way of challenge in classic DAoC both in PvE and PvP to make it one of the best MMOs I've ever played.
Fast forward to now and so far I am struggling to find challenges. I've tried the new so-called hardcore games like Vanguard and EQ2. I find neither that particularly challenging. Neither game have steep learning curves, there isn't that much challenge in either. I certainly can't say they're more challenging than WoW. A lot of the old MMOs have also been dumbed down. For people who like challenges, it's pretty much FFXI or bust
Edit - I can't remember if FFXI was released after AO. If it was released after, then it's the last hardcore MMO.
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
I don't see EvE or DAoC as being hardcore. If you mean that the game is really challenging and that it's incredibly difficult to advance both time-wise and skill-wise, then no... neither EvE nor DAoC fit that bill.
The old text-based MUDs were hardcore to the point that a lot of people couldn't get into them, not just because of the way the games were structured, but because you had to have a working knowledge of UNIX and the MUD codes in order to play. The complexity and learning curves of these MUDs was much greater than the oldest graphical MMOs. Death penalties could be steep, but it was rewarding to play and advance since it was so difficult. EQ was exciting because it was the first graphical MUD, but unfortunately, it did already start to dumb down some of the learning curve and complexity of the old MUDs.
The last MMO to be released that I can truly categorize as hardcore is AO with its long progression time, IP structure and pretty harsh death penalty (one death means all xp gone in your level... ouch!).
DAoC was fun because it made some things run more smoothly than in the oldest MMOs and MUDs. But it also was the first game to start 'dumbing' down challenges. There is no comparison between DAoC's death penalty and EQ's or AO's for that matter. However, there was still enough in the way of challenge in classic DAoC both in PvE and PvP to make it one of the best MMOs I've ever played.
Fast forward to now and so far I am struggling to find challenges. I've tried the new so-called hardcore games like Vanguard and EQ2. I find neither that particularly challenging. Neither game have steep learning curves, there isn't that much challenge in either. I certainly can't say they're more challenging than WoW. A lot of the old MMOs have also been dumbed down. For people who like challenges, it's pretty much FFXI or bust
Edit - I can't remember if FFXI was released after AO. If it was released after, then it's the last hardcore MMO.
If you don't think EVE is hardcore, then you really don't understand how to play EVE.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Ginaz "Hardcore mmo fans" don't seem to like anything. They're too l33t for WoW because hating on WoW is what the cool kids on the internets do. Gives them a target to unleash their nerd rage as to why their favourite game isn't nearly as successful or is dying. For bonus geek points, they will compare it to MacDonalds or Britney Spears.
That's just horrible!
WoW is much more like Beanie Babies, or Power Rangers than it is like McDonalds.
"Hardcore mmo fans" don't seem to like anything. They're too l33t for WoW because hating on WoW is what the cool kids on the internets do. Gives them a target to unleash their nerd rage as to why their favourite game isn't nearly as successful or is dying. For bonus geek points, they will compare it to MacDonalds or Britney Spears.
You guys have too remember that WoW was based on a already popular series of games... Warcraft.... so that alone got alot of ppl into the games... the easy, childish quests and type of characters and the type of ppl that joined got others too start playing... then that grew.... so on and so on and boom... you got this popular game that alot of ppl are crazed on... but you have too remember that alot of ppl that HATE WoW is because they like games that arent filled with Noobs and 12 year old kids that screw up your game play ect... and Those who LOVE WoW are mostly ppl that have never played MMORPG games before and/or are warcraft fans. Personnally i loved warcraft games... but i didnt jump on the WoW bandwaggin cause i noticed right away all the kids and cheaters in the game that just turned me right off... figured ill stick too FFXI and wait for another decent MMORPG too come out... "BUT" even though i didnt like some aspecs of WoW and i didnt want too play it because of it... I still liked some of the other aspecs which are some reasons ppl love that game. I loved the graphics and the type of characters you got too choose from and the customization and the graphix (for that time of MMORPG games anyways) And how simple everything was that even a child could learn too play... (which ended up making the game horrible but at first it was a great idea lol)
thats my 2 cents for now.
10 million 11 year olds? Funny how that number keeps getting lower amougst the mmorpg'ers who "don't/never played wow."
Also strange how "y'all registered in 08."
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
------ I haven't found one decent argument in all the above posts. The only argument I see is: Waaaaahghhjh, Wow stole people from my game and now my servers are empty. Waaaaghgjjkgh, I want those people back to my empty servers. .... and it's all Blizzards fault. No it is not: : you better make better games and than you'll also have a few million players instead of empty servers.
Good to know you obviously didn't read my posts then, because you seem to have ignored the fact that my remarks had nothing to do with that and everything to do with things that actually make sense...
Yay for stupid people acting like they have a clue.
Dude. You missed the point. He is, like, Siddartha man. You missed the message.
"You better make better" man. Key to life there. I am changed.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
I find WOW to be a solid implementation of a certain MMO model... The thing is, I don't much like that model. Here's my main beef with it:
The linear progress bug.
Almost everything is tied to the level system; you can't progress much in other spheres without progressing on the main bar - meaning, the experience bar. So you finish with some portion of the game and move on to a new one.
It's true that this approach creates a storyline of its own, building some sort of nostalgia into the landscape... But it ultimately works as a huge carrot on a stick, too. Wears you out if you run after it, leaves you behind if you don't. And if you don't do the running game, you're left out of a huge part of the social web, until you're up there.
Because the whole social network is laid out as some sort of disconnected hierarchy: Unlike many skill-based games, the beginners don't interact with the higher-ups in any meaningful way. You have to get up there to hang with everybody else, to hunt with them, to craft with them, to sell them stuff and buy their stuff...
Through this model WoW brings the genre some good writing, inventive quests and some new storytelling solutions, but in the end it constrains you more than I'm comfortable with.
P.S.: I must admit I'm not what you'd call a "hardcore" player, though. I've played too many MMOs, but don't usually put too many hours into them.
You guys have too remember that WoW was based on a already popular series of games... Warcraft.... so that alone got alot of ppl into the games... the easy, childish quests and type of characters and the type of ppl that joined got others too start playing... then that grew.... so on and so on and boom... you got this popular game that alot of ppl are crazed on... but you have too remember that alot of ppl that HATE WoW is because they like games that arent filled with Noobs and 12 year old kids that screw up your game play ect... and Those who LOVE WoW are mostly ppl that have never played MMORPG games before and/or are warcraft fans. Personnally i loved warcraft games... but i didnt jump on the WoW bandwaggin cause i noticed right away all the kids and cheaters in the game that just turned me right off... figured ill stick too FFXI and wait for another decent MMORPG too come out... "BUT" even though i didnt like some aspecs of WoW and i didnt want too play it because of it... I still liked some of the other aspecs which are some reasons ppl love that game. I loved the graphics and the type of characters you got too choose from and the customization and the graphix (for that time of MMORPG games anyways) And how simple everything was that even a child could learn too play... (which ended up making the game horrible but at first it was a great idea lol)
thats my 2 cents for now.
EQ2 was based on a popular MMO and it doesn't have anywhere near the subscribers that EQ1 had.
Star wars is the largest IP in gaming. Dungeons and Dragons, Lord of the rings, Final fantasy, Warhammer, Conan, The Matrix, Ultima and on and on and one. All super powerhouse properties to make games out of.
The Sims is the best selling game of all times and it flopped.
There have been so many powerhouse franchises with huge developers behind them that fit ever single data point you just made above with one exception. Many of them were complete failures and only a small few did even decent by pre-wow standards.
There is more to a games success than advertising and a popular game title as can be seen by the many games that didn't do what you just illustrated while having the same advantages.
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by APRAurore I don't see EvE or DAoC as being hardcore. If you mean that the game is really challenging and that it's incredibly difficult to advance both time-wise and skill-wise, then no... neither EvE nor DAoC fit that bill.
The old text-based MUDs were hardcore to the point that a lot of people couldn't get into them, not just because of the way the games were structured, but because you had to have a working knowledge of UNIX and the MUD codes in order to play. The complexity and learning curves of these MUDs was much greater than the oldest graphical MMOs. Death penalties could be steep, but it was rewarding to play and advance since it was so difficult. EQ was exciting because it was the first graphical MUD, but unfortunately, it did already start to dumb down some of the learning curve and complexity of the old MUDs.
The last MMO to be released that I can truly categorize as hardcore is AO with its long progression time, IP structure and pretty harsh death penalty (one death means all xp gone in your level... ouch!).
DAoC was fun because it made some things run more smoothly than in the oldest MMOs and MUDs. But it also was the first game to start 'dumbing' down challenges. There is no comparison between DAoC's death penalty and EQ's or AO's for that matter. However, there was still enough in the way of challenge in classic DAoC both in PvE and PvP to make it one of the best MMOs I've ever played.
Fast forward to now and so far I am struggling to find challenges. I've tried the new so-called hardcore games like Vanguard and EQ2. I find neither that particularly challenging. Neither game have steep learning curves, there isn't that much challenge in either. I certainly can't say they're more challenging than WoW. A lot of the old MMOs have also been dumbed down. For people who like challenges, it's pretty much FFXI or bust
Edit - I can't remember if FFXI was released after AO. If it was released after, then it's the last hardcore MMO.
If you don't think EVE is hardcore, then you really don't understand how to play EVE.
Thats funny, EVE is actually the only game that doesn't need to be played and you call it hardcore.
People hate WoW because it is improperly labelled as a MMORPG. Yes it is a MMO, but it should not be considered a roleplaying game. It is more of an online fantasy adventure game. The vets get mad because they remember true RPG games like UO, Baldur's Gate and perhaps even MUD's. In comparison to the rich roleplaying element in these games, WoW doesn't even come close. Once you accept WoW for what it is, you realise where it really shines.
People hate WoW because it is improperly labelled as a MMORPG. Yes it is a MMO, but it should not be considered a roleplaying game. It is more of an online fantasy adventure game. The vets get mad because they remember true RPG games like UO, Baldur's Gate and perhaps even MUD's. In comparison to the rich roleplaying element in these games, WoW doesn't even come close. Once you accept WoW for what it is, you realise where it really shines.
Correct. But here its massive succes is also responsible.
it is also the problem of webistes with X, Y coordinates and solutions like the dreadful "questhelper" and other add ons.
If you level in WotLK without them it is quite good as an MMORPG.
I wonder how may guilds would down bosses in Nax without the add ons...
Comments
Atm WAR, if it didn't have the pvp/rvr i would have cancelled after 2days, cause except for the rvr its imo identical to WoW.
Having played online games since 1994
-Muds, Meridian59..etc. EQ, DAoC...
My main beef with WoW, and the permanent changes it has brought to the genre.. is the streamlining of the whole RPG part of the game.
-Set path for advancement; you dont have to explore to find the next new area.
-Boring skills/spells that have simple effects. No skills/spells that aren't aimed at killing; eg levitate,sow,teleport,create food/water those types of thing. Esentially not a living RPG worthy world.
-Limited advancement options, and simplistic spec/mastery system.
-Lack of any sort of mastery of your class, starting an alt should be a major commitment. IMO why alot of players thought the raids(lol) in WoW were hard is because they were full of noobs who got to level cap in a couple of weeks, and didn't know their class/role in group dynamics.
-streamlining/easy mode of various systems; travel, class trainer, cost of training, training new abilities/skills/spells with no pre-req/quest..etc involved. instead we have warrior trainer -> here he can do everything for you with no work on your part and if you dont like your choices you can re-assign your spec with little cost.
- streamlinging of the whole "raid" part of the game. ppl dont realise that raiding began in muds. Raiding was to try kill NPCs that weren't meant to be killed, city guards, merchants, trainers..etc that delt out massive dmg, and could kill any 1 player instantly. Remember priests of discord(EQ). with the raids in WoW, sure they all had their little gimmicks, but were essentially easy(from friends on WoW wotlk "raids" are even easier). Raids should be Epic encounters requiring massive player cooperation. from my WoW experience(pre-bc) the "raids" or instanced dungeons are the same as dungeons from EQ that you level off.
I could go on and on, imo its streamlining/commercialising of the genre Vs actual immersion.. MMOs today are made by businessmen, NOT RPGers.
From a playing perspective on my part, coming from MUDs i thought EQ was a little on the easy side, but the consequences of bad decisions and real danger in the world made it worth it.
Does anyone know how to make a mmoRPG anymore?
I don't hate wow I am just bored of it after 2 years, I sold my account and don't plan to play it again.What I like
A game that is pure PvE exploration and adventure oriented.
A game with a real storyline that is told in cinematics, group raids that tell a story at the end or make a cutcean appear or something like that.
A game where the majority of the playerbase is above 15 years old.
A game where you don't feel like you have to grind to max level to really enjoy the game and get to the "Good stuff"
A game with a lot of players but not so many it becomes impossible to camp mobs you need.
A game with more realistic visuals, cartoony style is not for me.
A game with some great music, and I don't just mean background I mean battle music, Area music, zone music, Mount music, suff like that.
A game with such a large wrold the majority of players will never finish exploring half of it or doing half of the story/ missions on it!
A game that adds content not grind, there is no need to raise level cap every time you add content, do not make the work we did for a year become useless the game should let you keep stuff that you used a year ago still be good and effective in the next expansion, no level cap raises. Add story add missions add content dont add grind.
This is what I want in a mmorpg, and so far FFXI and Guild wars are 2 games that I think together give me all of these things. So that is what I am playing right now, and having a great time too.
The reason that there is so much hatred over WoW is every MMo now has to measure up to it. WoW is an awesome game for what it is, but what a lot of people now want is variety, especially us older WoW vets that are just tired of the same old same old and looking for something new. And ever since Blizzard monopolized the franchise it's become insanely difficult for other MMos to compete.
Take WAR for an example, they just had to add scenarios into the game because they were afraid players wouldn't be able to adapt to open RvR. And I can honestly say scenarios are probably the number one reason why WAR isn't doing so well right now. It's almost destroyed any good reason to venture out into the RvR lakes and compete for territory and this was one of WAR's major themes.
As long as WoW is on top, it seems as if though most of us have nothing but more WoW clones to expect. And since WoW has already pretty much mastered the theme park experience, when players are faced with lackluster imitations, they're also faced with the impression that it would have just been better if they never left WoW in the first place....
this is a bad topic because its solely based on opinion. Its funny because in my opinion WoW and WAR are the two most garbage MMO's ever made, and Vanguard is a shining jewel compared to them
Scenarios in Warhammer are popular for a few reasons. A) they offer the fastest advancement in the game, so people gravitate towards them.
pretty much everything else in the game is either unfinished, disfunctional or just plain boring.
There is just so much wrong with Warhammer from is driving goal to push players to PvE in some twisted way to promote RvR, to the broken contribution system, lack of realm pride or ownership, no rewards or sense of loss over keeps and battle field objectives, realm imbalances, etc. The list really goes on about what Warhammer is doing wrong in the game. It seems like the devs spent so much time focusing on what past mistakes they wanted to correct, that they just didn't pay attention to what needed to be done right for the game and its players to reach their intended goal.
If you look at the list of what is fun and people enjoy you will see scenarios in the top spots on most lists, often followed by getting burned out with them after doing so many.
I honestly think that even if scenarios were completely removed the results of the game would be almost the exact same. Removing one of the fucntional/fun options in the game wouldn't keep people playing in the RvR areas that they are already opting out of in order to do scenarios which they are sick to death of.
I admit, Blizzard did a lot of things right with WoW, but only a hardcore fanboy would call the game perfect. Truth be told, I've considered WoW overrated since launch, though my big problems with the game are mostly personal reasons...
- Lack of any interesting classes
Eight classes is just a really measly number in my opinion, and despite such a small number and four years of patching, Blizzard STILL can't create any sort of balance? Give me a ****ing break.
Now back to my personal complaint, no class in WoW fits my playstyle. I like to play a melee-DPS class that doesn't go down in just a couple hits (So Rogue is out the window). Some examples are the Samurai in FFXI, Warden in LOTRO, White Lion in WAR, and Mercenary in DAOC. The closest WoW has is an enhancement Shaman, but that's only available to four races in the game, none of which I like.
- Dull character models
Don't get me wrong, I'm ok with the game's graphics style. But just because it's cartoonish, doesn't mean it has to look like trash. Painted-on armor textures and blocky, deformed character models were impressive in 1998, this is 2008. They don't age well either, I took a recent look at some WOTLK screenshots and was shocked to realize how terrible they look after playing WAR and LOTRO.
The lack of diversity among the races is also a complaint I have. On the Alliance side, your choice for a male character is between three roid-monkeys and two midgets. In the end, I always played a female character. Don't pull the "It's the Blizzard art-style" crap, if that's really the reason, then why does the Horde have three slender male races? And why does official artwork depicting Alliance mages show them as being average-sized?
These complaints might sound stupid to some, but to me, they're both very important factors to my enjoyment in an MMO. I hope in the future, Blizzard will give the character models a much-needed face-lift. And before anyone says "But they like to keep the system requirements low", they could just do what Mythic did with DAOC and make the upgraded graphics optional. All I can say is that it would make a far more interesting expansion selling point than "new" (Recycled from other races) hairstyles.
Melee dps that doesn't go down very easy? At this point there is the warrior, the retribution pally, and the DPS deathknight. All of them are fine dps, melee, and do NOT go down easy at all. I think a fury or arms warrior exactly fits the playstyle you described.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
Scenarios in Warhammer are popular for a few reasons. A) they offer the fastest advancement in the game, so people gravitate towards them.
pretty much everything else in the game is either unfinished, disfunctional or just plain boring.
There is just so much wrong with Warhammer from is driving goal to push players to PvE in some twisted way to promote RvR, to the broken contribution system, lack of realm pride or ownership, no rewards or sense of loss over keeps and battle field objectives, realm imbalances, etc. The list really goes on about what Warhammer is doing wrong in the game. It seems like the devs spent so much time focusing on what past mistakes they wanted to correct, that they just didn't pay attention to what needed to be done right for the game and its players to reach their intended goal.
If you look at the list of what is fun and people enjoy you will see scenarios in the top spots on most lists, often followed by getting burned out with them after doing so many.
I honestly think that even if scenarios were completely removed the results of the game would be almost the exact same. Removing one of the fucntional/fun options in the game wouldn't keep people playing in the RvR areas that they are already opting out of in order to do scenarios which they are sick to death of.
Oh I'm not going to argue with what you have to say here, there is just as much wrong with the RvR system itself in WAR as everything else. But personally, the last thing I wanted to see in WAR were boxed up match ups, and the endless grind involved that never seems to play a part to the rest of the game and it's world.
Good to know you obviously didn't read my posts then, because you seem to have ignored the fact that my remarks had nothing to do with that and everything to do with things that actually make sense...
Yay for stupid people acting like they have a clue.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
You guys have too remember that WoW was based on a already popular series of games... Warcraft.... so that alone got alot of ppl into the games... the easy, childish quests and type of characters and the type of ppl that joined got others too start playing... then that grew.... so on and so on and boom... you got this popular game that alot of ppl are crazed on... but you have too remember that alot of ppl that HATE WoW is because they like games that arent filled with Noobs and 12 year old kids that screw up your game play ect... and Those who LOVE WoW are mostly ppl that have never played MMORPG games before and/or are warcraft fans. Personnally i loved warcraft games... but i didnt jump on the WoW bandwaggin cause i noticed right away all the kids and cheaters in the game that just turned me right off... figured ill stick too FFXI and wait for another decent MMORPG too come out... "BUT" even though i didnt like some aspecs of WoW and i didnt want too play it because of it... I still liked some of the other aspecs which are some reasons ppl love that game. I loved the graphics and the type of characters you got too choose from and the customization and the graphix (for that time of MMORPG games anyways) And how simple everything was that even a child could learn too play... (which ended up making the game horrible but at first it was a great idea lol)
thats my 2 cents for now.
I actually find that the more ppl that are in a Game... the less fun the game ends up being... which is y i always try too start characters in Less popular servers... enough too be able too have friends and do quests together and get help and join clans ect... but not enough that ppl start annoying you and drive you nutz and make you want too quit (like a Mall... i love the ones that have a nice crowd... not those cheap outlet malls that are supper crowded....)
"Hardcore mmo fans" don't seem to like anything. They're too l33t for WoW because hating on WoW is what the cool kids on the internets do. Gives them a target to unleash their nerd rage as to why their favourite game isn't nearly as successful or is dying. For bonus geek points, they will compare it to MacDonalds or Britney Spears.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
I am a core player and I play WoW.
I don't hate it, I don't love it................that's why WoW is so succesful, because everyone can play it.
What do I like?
UO, EQ1 pre-PoP, EQ2 pre-ROK, SWG pre-NGE, AC, EvE, Vanguard.
Mainly games pre 2004, to me those caught the real meanining of MMORPG.
After WoW, MMORPGs lost the soul and became just games.
I play WoW because there is nothing better and devs have screwed up older MMOs, so I cannot play them anymore (Thanks SoE)
I don't see EvE or DAoC as being hardcore. If you mean that the game is really challenging and that it's incredibly difficult to advance both time-wise and skill-wise, then no... neither EvE nor DAoC fit that bill.
The old text-based MUDs were hardcore to the point that a lot of people couldn't get into them, not just because of the way the games were structured, but because you had to have a working knowledge of UNIX and the MUD codes in order to play. The complexity and learning curves of these MUDs was much greater than the oldest graphical MMOs. Death penalties could be steep, but it was rewarding to play and advance since it was so difficult. EQ was exciting because it was the first graphical MUD, but unfortunately, it did already start to dumb down some of the learning curve and complexity of the old MUDs.
The last MMO to be released that I can truly categorize as hardcore is AO with its long progression time, IP structure and pretty harsh death penalty (one death means all xp gone in your level... ouch!).
DAoC was fun because it made some things run more smoothly than in the oldest MMOs and MUDs. But it also was the first game to start 'dumbing' down challenges. There is no comparison between DAoC's death penalty and EQ's or AO's for that matter. However, there was still enough in the way of challenge in classic DAoC both in PvE and PvP to make it one of the best MMOs I've ever played.
Fast forward to now and so far I am struggling to find challenges. I've tried the new so-called hardcore games like Vanguard and EQ2. I find neither that particularly challenging. Neither game have steep learning curves, there isn't that much challenge in either. I certainly can't say they're more challenging than WoW. A lot of the old MMOs have also been dumbed down. For people who like challenges, it's pretty much FFXI or bust
Edit - I can't remember if FFXI was released after AO. If it was released after, then it's the last hardcore MMO.
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
WAR is allot easier and ugly as hell.
If you don't think EVE is hardcore, then you really don't understand how to play EVE.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That's just horrible!
WoW is much more like Beanie Babies, or Power Rangers than it is like McDonalds.
This just made me laugh... Thank you!
-Almerel
Hello my old friend.
10 million 11 year olds? Funny how that number keeps getting lower amougst the mmorpg'ers who "don't/never played wow."
Also strange how "y'all registered in 08."
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
Good to know you obviously didn't read my posts then, because you seem to have ignored the fact that my remarks had nothing to do with that and everything to do with things that actually make sense...
Yay for stupid people acting like they have a clue.
Dude. You missed the point. He is, like, Siddartha man. You missed the message.
"You better make better" man. Key to life there. I am changed.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
I find WOW to be a solid implementation of a certain MMO model... The thing is, I don't much like that model.
Here's my main beef with it:
The linear progress bug.
Almost everything is tied to the level system; you can't progress much in other spheres without progressing on the main bar - meaning, the experience bar. So you finish with some portion of the game and move on to a new one.
It's true that this approach creates a storyline of its own, building some sort of nostalgia into the landscape... But it ultimately works as a huge carrot on a stick, too. Wears you out if you run after it, leaves you behind if you don't. And if you don't do the running game, you're left out of a huge part of the social web, until you're up there.
Because the whole social network is laid out as some sort of disconnected hierarchy: Unlike many skill-based games, the beginners don't interact with the higher-ups in any meaningful way. You have to get up there to hang with everybody else, to hunt with them, to craft with them, to sell them stuff and buy their stuff...
Through this model WoW brings the genre some good writing, inventive quests and some new storytelling solutions, but in the end it constrains you more than I'm comfortable with.
P.S.: I must admit I'm not what you'd call a "hardcore" player, though. I've played too many MMOs, but don't usually put too many hours into them.
EQ2 was based on a popular MMO and it doesn't have anywhere near the subscribers that EQ1 had.
Star wars is the largest IP in gaming. Dungeons and Dragons, Lord of the rings, Final fantasy, Warhammer, Conan, The Matrix, Ultima and on and on and one. All super powerhouse properties to make games out of.
The Sims is the best selling game of all times and it flopped.
There have been so many powerhouse franchises with huge developers behind them that fit ever single data point you just made above with one exception. Many of them were complete failures and only a small few did even decent by pre-wow standards.
There is more to a games success than advertising and a popular game title as can be seen by the many games that didn't do what you just illustrated while having the same advantages.
Thats funny, EVE is actually the only game that doesn't need to be played and you call it hardcore.
People hate WoW because it is improperly labelled as a MMORPG. Yes it is a MMO, but it should not be considered a roleplaying game. It is more of an online fantasy adventure game. The vets get mad because they remember true RPG games like UO, Baldur's Gate and perhaps even MUD's. In comparison to the rich roleplaying element in these games, WoW doesn't even come close. Once you accept WoW for what it is, you realise where it really shines.
Correct. But here its massive succes is also responsible.
it is also the problem of webistes with X, Y coordinates and solutions like the dreadful "questhelper" and other add ons.
If you level in WotLK without them it is quite good as an MMORPG.
I wonder how may guilds would down bosses in Nax without the add ons...