The company doesn't care about you, its all about money. If you believe this game is comming out, your just wasting time. Free2Play games get more exposure than this.
The company doesn't care about you, its all about money. If you believe this game is comming out, your just wasting time. Free2Play games get more exposure than this.
This is true, and to get money they have to either fool the consumers, or make them happy.
Trying to fool us and no pre-orders?! thats pretty dumb.
Is it so hard to imagine that aventurine is trying to milk our cash by making us enjoy there game?
Well all bets are up still thou, aventurine might be just fishing on a big boat that costed a few mills in the sea laughing there assses off hehe.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
This game has terrible written all over it, and thats is being backed by the beta leakers. Don't set your expectations too high, because you'll just be disappointed.
wowowow slow down there, now im worried.
First the naysayers say there are no leaks therefor vapors, and now you say some "leakers" says its bad.
If the leakers are complaining then i will be worried, thats for sure. But im more inclined your just spewing BS here, gonna go off to google abit if perhaps some really new leaks have been made since 3 days ago when i last checked...
And im not to worried, im pretty sure darkfall will be mediocre at best from start - im just hoping its playable and sticks to its core rules. Im very well aware that all new mmos come with very little at start, heck even wow lacked alot at start... and i thought that was a pretty decent launch looking on the content part.
P.S - the only reason i have some hope is becouse i know some leaks, and there are so far no leakers that ive found that has gone emoraging about how much it sucks (and they usually do since at that point they dont care if they are banned) - if leakers start to ignore NDA to bash, its time to start to worry.
EDIT:
actually found a new leak(only text, so no proofs thou), but it wasnt anything new or surprising really. But yeah people who think this game will be perfect at launch and look like AoC is gonna be given a rude wakeup call me thinks hehe.
You had me worried and thinking of Dark n Light kind of stuff there! hooboy the nightmares of that shit never ends - was mighty fun to bug around on shield in snow thou haha!
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
They are doing this for a reason because they are not out to make money from the start. They want to create a game that people enjoy and will play, that is all.
Has this been officially released? No, but it's pretty obvious that this is why they don't have pre-orders or lots of marketing, etc. etc.
I fail to understand why some ppl are always so naive. They are not out to make money? Dude, are you seriously believing that shit? They dont have a life to live or a family to feed?
Some other nonsense like "they prefer a slower start", "they want to be low profile" LOL
With the financial crisis now, believe me THEY WANT ALL THE MONEY THEY CAN GET. Stop living in yr fantasy world.
How do you know that these other people want to make all the money they can get? And how is that tied to the current financial crisis? And why does that necessarily mean that they have issue pre-orders to do what you say they need to do?
At any rate, I'm certain that you won't really care to definitively answer these, so why don't you at least stop telling people to believe you until you can first demonstrate to them that there is any real need for them to do so, instead?
I for one have absolutely nothing to lose by continuing to live in whatever kind of world it is that I'm in right now. I doubt your level awareness of things would show me anything I didn't already know or at least have already suspected was the case, so I guess I'll just stick with being admittedly naive for now. Oh well. Tra, la, la... (Have you got the inside scoop on something I don't know about?)
I'm not suggesting that I agree with aeroplane22, however -- both your last posts are fairly grating for all their simplistic notions -- but there certainly are ways to make more money over the long term with a "slower start", especially in a relatively small, fickle MMORPG industry already ruled at the top by a handful of established names, glutted with free-to-play clones and crappy wannabes at the bottom.
Thank you for the concern, though. If it turns out you're right and it's all a scam... well, that's great for you, I guess, being all right and stuff. I'm not sure what you get out of this, but no one from Aventur-whatever is asking me for anything yet, so yeah. Whatever. Feel free to continue to hint at your own cleverness in presumably finding all the devils in the details (or lack thereof). If it turns out you're wrong, well, you can always log into Darkfall (and mmorpg.com) with a different name and reap the rewards without anyone ever having to know. So I guess you can win no matter what, if you really want to.
Besides, the chances of failure always greatly outweigh the chances of success with any new title, so even if it manages to stay up and running for a year or two, when the subsription rate starts to go down the tubes, you'll be able to say that it was clearly all a scam because it was never really meant to last.
Now, if only I was so clever to be as future proof as you are, I wouldn't be so bitter. *sigh*
So in a nutshell your telling us you don't think a gaming company is out to make money. Do you know what investors are? Do you think they just randomly INVEST in games to see little to no profit just to make a fun game for you. Maybe the guy is right, your living in some fantasy world. And if you haven't noticed, the recession is global and effects everything. It may not effect Aventurine as much becuase I don't think they are pubically traded as of yet, but it does effect thier lives. People just don't start companies to make a small dollar. It's about the bigger picture. And this does not include you or what you beleive is FUN. Last I heard, you need cash to pay bills. You need cash to pay employees and you definatly need cash to support servers. I would honestly quit listening to Tasos. Hes nothing more than a pad PR rep for Aventurine, and it's going to show when this game releases. I suggest MMORPG.com make a forum on Jan. 22th just for this occasion. Good Day dreamer!!
Um, no. Last time I checked, companies need to make a profit, just like most people do when they go to work.
My problem is that some people here seem to think there is only one way to fleece consumers and that it somehow involves raping them in as short a time as possible... and that being quiet and not divulging information about your game is somehow proof of that. I don't get the connection. There is no logical jump between the two that I can see. Investors have learned from the dot com bubble that burst and all the hype that went into trumping up IPOs... it's not going to happen again -- unless they're just as dumb as some of the people in this thread, guardian angel-type investors will want to see substantial, proven subscription rates before writing a check. All they have to do is look at the list of games on this site to see there's just too much trash out there already.
And, yeah, you'd also have to be a moron to turn away profits when people are willing to pay you, but if you release a product that will die within a year because it's still bugged and players get discouraged, what's the point when, if you had simply held back the release for a couple more months and used the time to work the bugs out, you could make a more substantial return on investment. A developer trying to being quiet about an impending release tends to support the notion that longer term survivability is the business model being followed here: bigger profits in the long run because of high customer satisfaction and credibility, and not because you're hoping 500, 000 bored WoW refugees were inundated with a glitzy advertising campaign that made them believe there was a chance to get in on the most uber thing ever on day 1 and be a part of history... before realizing three months down the road that it's the same old schlock as before and cancelling their subscription before heading back to WoW.
Blizzard did everything right, got a bit lucky, and managed to not screw up the winning formula that drew people to them in the first place... and now they've secured astronomical profits over a long period of time with no end in sight. Other companies -- say, SOE -- might have been able to duplicate Blizzard's success and secured a comparable market share if they had recognized the importance of the long term picture and how it relates to a consistent, quality of product and customer satisfaction. Look at what happened to SWG playerbase when SOE decided they had to make a few 'improvements' to the game without proper consultation (well, at least outside of the numbers that the boys in marketing came back with when they tried to figure out the whole Jedi thing, etc.) Poof. That game is a dead end now and SOE has undoubtedly suffered in their ofther offerings because of it -- a lot of people hated/still hate SOE for it.
Lastly, it's incredibly rare to release any kind of software that doesn't come with a few bugs. If you go about hyping the hell out of a game before release and go so far as to even sell pre-orders, you either know EVERYTHING and have redundant systems built extensively throughout your setup, or you are likely going to take a serious hit to your credibility when everyone starts jamming the server trying to download the game files and patches on release day... and the following week thereafter.
But who knows? Maybe pre-orders will still be made available. I don't care. That's really not my point -- my beef is simply with the attitude that seems to think that a mere lack of information is proof that a grand conspiracy is underway. Well, I'm sorry, but the only conspiracy I can see is people getting a hate-on for the fanbois and wanting so bad to be right about another hyped game going under just so they can spend the next year going around and proudly stroking their massive e-peen in front of everyone. Whoop-dee-doo.
So, yeah, I don't get the conspiracy theories. I would like to, but I'm afraid I just don't yet. And I'm afraid your "Economics For Dummies" talk is wasted on me --sorry, but I already have a job and a mortgage in the real world, so yeah, thanks for the, uh, effort there, chief.
Obviously, a developer staying quiet about their game is obviously too much for some people to handle without pissing all over themselves. Smell ya later.
(And here I was, vowing I wouldn't respond... I guess I'll just have to try harder...)
In modern usage, sophism, sophist, and sophistry are derogatory terms, due the influence of many philosophers in the past (sophism and platonism were enemy schools).
A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience's prejudices and emotions rather than logic, i.e. raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion. The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is, e.g., accusing another of sophistry for using persuasion techniques. An argument Ad Hominem is an example of Sophistry.
A sophist is a user of sophisms, i.e., an insincere person trying to confuse or deceive people. A sophist tries to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether his argument is logical and factual.
Sophistry means making heavy use of sophisms. The word may be applied to a particular text or speech riddled with sophisms."
Okay they have little budget for PR. Okay, I can buy that. But for a company with a little budget for PR it would be crucial to make a good viral campaign. Instead of doing that they have alienated a large player base with promises no large company with 300+ developers could achieve. They claim to have built and re-built their own engine and create more features than any mmo out there over 7-8 years- despite saying development really started later. It would be obvious that a game company with no PR budget would use mmorpg.com and many of the other western websites for online gaming for free, with previews etc. If this game is feature complete why not show it off? Let's see those large underworlds and sea kingdoms, building of player cities and sieges and all. How can they even claim to be able to have 10s of thousands on a server when there is NO testing above a few dozens of people? So what not do FREE PR? It makes no sense whatsoever. If what they claim in the feature list was true it wouldn't be an online game but the second coming of Messias. Sangreal incarnated (or onlinenated).. They haven't even updated their website a month before launch. Surely even a small team like that could ask someone to update the website. Hey even ask a friend to do it. How long can it take for a pro.
Everything I know of gaming, business, life and common sense, tells me this game will either never launch or will launch with 1000th of a fraction of what they promised. THAT is why they are not showing the game. That is why there is no PR, that is why they don't take preorders (not wanting to be sued)..
Use common sense, people. Please!
Ok, while I agree w/ some of your points (ie the main website not being updated seems pretty lazy) your logic is actually backwards. Let me explain.
If I'm developing a product, and I know its crap... I want to sell as many units as possible as soon as possible. Why? Because word is going to spread like wildfire that my product is trash(via sites like these, which are its main PR source as you've pointed out), and thats going to hurt my profit margin. If I didn't believe in my product, I'd have provided preorders waaaay before Christmas, I would have put out doctored gameplay videos that would have made the game seem outstanding sometime in October and November, and I would have rushed a release prior to X-mas... regardless of how unstable the game was, because its going to suck anyway right? I would have pushed a NA distribution, regardless of whether or not I had the resources to properly support the additional servers/colocation arrangements/staffing support.
They aren't doing any of this though. They pushed back the release to Jan, even though the games been feature complete for awhile now. They did this to insure a stable launch, even at the risk of hurting their immediant profit margin(and inflating their longterm profit margin, which is a good sign). They haven't been throwing out tons of doctored gameplay video to hype up initial sales.... an indication to me that they actually believe that their product will bring in new people by word of mouth based upon solid gameplay. It's not like its difficult to doctor a gameplay video to make a game look way more spectacular than it actually is... and I'd damn sure be playing that card if I had a product that was going to get thrashed on reviews once it actually came out.
I really don't understand why the pre-order thing is such a big deal to some people... considering the game is going to be widely distributed via Digital Download... The whole point of a preorder is to reserve copies of a game so that your "supplier" will know how many units to order, and so that they won't run out. Most preorders don't even charge you the full price until the game is actually available... so wtf is the big deal w/ it on a game thats going to be a Digitial Download?
Also, your arguments about a small developer not being able to provide the content is also shortsighted. For one... no other game has even bothered to try. Are the features they are including really so mind boggling? Not really. Hell, the only thing thats actually unique that I can think of off the top of my head is the ship to ship stuff and the stealth mechanics. Everything else has been done in the past in some form or another... even the FPS concept is simply drawing from another genre. Most of the stuff they simply are improving upon. What held back a game like this for so long, is that your average MMO company is terrified of creating a game that centers around a full loot FFA PvP combat. They take the safe route and trace the path that WoW has created for them, whilst offering a few features that are "revolutionary". They seem content to simply feed off the MMO crowd that is looking for a "new" WoW
Darkfall is a slap in the face of WoW. It goes completely opposite of everything that WoW is. This game won't draw anyone wanting the next generation WoW... its going after a different crowd of MMO players all together. That being said, those types of players are in a minority(ie a niche game, much like the highly successful Eve Online)... and all the marketing in the world won't cause a person who wants the next generation WoW to enjoy a game like Darkfall... in fact most of that fanbase will probably completely hate this game... even if it is feature complete and makes good on all its promises. The developers seem content w/ that... and I think its pretty damn smart. You don't try to fight for food w/ an 800lb Gorilla, you just move to a different part of the jungle.
Okay they have little budget for PR. Okay, I can buy that. But for a company with a little budget for PR it would be crucial to make a good viral campaign. Instead of doing that they have alienated a large player base with promises no large company with 300+ developers could achieve. They claim to have built and re-built their own engine and create more features than any mmo out there over 7-8 years- despite saying development really started later. It would be obvious that a game company with no PR budget would use mmorpg.com and many of the other western websites for online gaming for free, with previews etc. If this game is feature complete why not show it off? Let's see those large underworlds and sea kingdoms, building of player cities and sieges and all. How can they even claim to be able to have 10s of thousands on a server when there is NO testing above a few dozens of people? So what not do FREE PR? It makes no sense whatsoever. If what they claim in the feature list was true it wouldn't be an online game but the second coming of Messias. Sangreal incarnated (or onlinenated).. They haven't even updated their website a month before launch. Surely even a small team like that could ask someone to update the website. Hey even ask a friend to do it. How long can it take for a pro.
Everything I know of gaming, business, life and common sense, tells me this game will either never launch or will launch with 1000th of a fraction of what they promised. THAT is why they are not showing the game. That is why there is no PR, that is why they don't take preorders (not wanting to be sued)..
Use common sense, people. Please!
Ok, while I agree w/ some of your points (ie the main website not being updated seems pretty lazy) your logic is actually backwards. Let me explain.
If I'm developing a product, and I know its crap... I want to sell as many units as possible as soon as possible. Why? Because word is going to spread like wildfire that my product is trash(via sites like these, which are its main PR source as you've pointed out), and thats going to hurt my profit margin. If I didn't believe in my product, I'd have provided preorders waaaay before Christmas, I would have put out doctored gameplay videos that would have made the game seem outstanding sometime in October and November, and I would have rushed a release prior to X-mas... regardless of how unstable the game was, because its going to suck anyway right? I would have pushed a NA distribution, regardless of whether or not I had the resources to properly support the additional servers/colocation arrangements/staffing support.
They aren't doing any of this though. They pushed back the release to Jan, even though the games been feature complete for awhile now. They did this to insure a stable launch, even at the risk of hurting their immediant profit margin(and inflating their longterm profit margin, which is a good sign). They haven't been throwing out tons of doctored gameplay video to hype up initial sales.... an indication to me that they actually believe that their product will bring in new people by word of mouth based upon solid gameplay. It's not like its difficult to doctor a gameplay video to make a game look way more spectacular than it actually is... and I'd damn sure be playing that card if I had a product that was going to get thrashed on reviews once it actually came out.
I really don't understand why the pre-order thing is such a big deal to some people... considering the game is going to be widely distributed via Digital Download... The whole point of a preorder is to reserve copies of a game so that your "supplier" will know how many units to order, and so that they won't run out. Most preorders don't even charge you the full price until the game is actually available... so wtf is the big deal w/ it on a game thats going to be a Digitial Download?
Also, your arguments about a small developer not being able to provide the content is also shortsighted. For one... no other game has even bothered to try. Are the features they are including really so mind boggling? Not really. Hell, the only thing thats actually unique that I can think of off the top of my head is the ship to ship stuff and the stealth mechanics. Everything else has been done in the past in some form or another... even the FPS concept is simply drawing from another genre. Most of the stuff they simply are improving upon. What held back a game like this for so long, is that your average MMO company is terrified of creating a game that centers around a full loot FFA PvP combat. They take the safe route and trace the path that WoW has created for them, whilst offering a few features that are "revolutionary". They seem content to simply feed off the MMO crowd that is looking for a "new" WoW
Darkfall is a slap in the face of WoW. It goes completely opposite of everything that WoW is. This game won't draw anyone wanting the next generation WoW... its going after a different crowd of MMO players all together. That being said, those types of players are in a minority(ie a niche game, much like the highly successful Eve Online)... and all the marketing in the world won't cause a person who wants the next generation WoW to enjoy a game like Darkfall... in fact most of that fanbase will probably completely hate this game... even if it is feature complete and makes good on all its promises. The developers seem content w/ that... and I think its pretty damn smart. You don't try to fight for food w/ an 800lb Gorilla, you just move to a different part of the jungle.
Like you said, use common sense.
Its designed to be a niche game, and a niche game it will be. Does that mean its faliures, hardly, but most MMO players will hate this game.
So far, no one has put forth a plausible reason for not taking pre-orders before Xmas, when your release is Jan 22, 2009. Perhaps their Publisher is just not up to the task.
Yes there has. People keep saying it, but you fail to listen or you just want to egg people on.
They are not out to make big money, they are out to make a decent game.
Slow start.
Quality.
Speaks for itself.
The highlighted is probably the most naive and uninformed statement you can make regarding MMOs and companies that produce MMO, blind faith is sure king on these forums.
So far, no one has put forth a plausible reason for not taking pre-orders before Xmas, when your release is Jan 22, 2009. Perhaps their Publisher is just not up to the task.
Yes there has. People keep saying it, but you fail to listen or you just want to egg people on.
They are not out to make big money, they are out to make a decent game.
Slow start.
Quality.
Speaks for itself.
The highlighted is probably the most naive and uninformed statement you can make regarding MMOs and companies that produce MMO, blind faith is sure king on these forums.
Hadn't you heard Adventurine have made billions in defence contracts and Tasos and the boys are all independantly wealthy. DF is an altruistic creation with the shareholders not requiring there investment back let alone a return on it. And pigs can fly. I still of course hope it delivers enough to be fun.
I don't think the year 2009 is going to start very well in the mmorpg frontier. Darkfall will never deliver what they've said so far. I don't know if the DF devs even know what features their game has. You cultist have been praising how awesome this game is going to be, I hope you don't get all suicidal once you find out the list is cut to 1/5 of it. Revolutionary? Riiiight.
Originally posted by Mortemia I don't think the year 2009 is going to start very well in the mmorpg frontier. Darkfall will never deliver what they've said so far. I don't know if the DF devs even know what features their game has. You cultist have been praising how awesome this game is going to be, I hope you don't get all suicidal once you find out the list is cut to 1/5 of it. Revolutionary? Riiiight.
Oh and dont forget they claim DF to be "next gen" even though 1: they dont know what that term really means and 2: the DF engine isnt even close to "next gen"
God this whole thread is funny when a ghost, a egg, and a lost sith lord are running around hopelessly trying to defend a game that wont be what they hope for it to be on the 22nd....cant wait for the fanbois excuses when that day comes lol.
It is now safe to assume there is no DF coming out in three weeks and that DF should be removed from mmorpg.com
This is quite a charade!
I was hoping you were still around.
I expect a "I told you so" or "sorry" after release whichever is appropriate
Maybe as a New Year resolution mmorgp.com should purge themselves of this darkfall pest and move on. Sure they get tons of marketing dollars by keeping it on (more clicks and viewed pages = more visibility for banners = more $ for mmorpg.com), but there IS something called moral and clearly they don't believe in this game themselves.
I still wait to see who actually believes anything will release in January!?
Where is their new website, where can we order the game or download? Where are all the game magazine reviews (outside Greece and Italy)?
If they truly has such an astounding game, why don't they want our $ ?? Why literally hide the game from all professional gaming reviewers?
Where is the updated, truthful feature list of what is in the game?
Where is the videos showing AI? Not just scripted boardings, but actual players, not company personal, playing the game?
This game is such a hoax, I can't believe people are falling for it.
But enough is enough and three weeks before launch it is time to admit this is a hoax and delete its presence here and reserve the space for REAL games under development!
Well they've had 8 years, that's plenty of time to do all that.
Nope
They said themselves they swapped engine several times and didn't really start development until much later (their excuse for not putting the game out yet).
There is no shred of proof they can make such a massive game.
No leaks, no info from them. No attempt to share this "wonderful next gen" mmo with magazines etc.
It is a load of crock. MMORPG.COM only allows it as it brings in revenue (they get money from each banner impression here)...
Not to mention they claimed there time developing is the same as other games with much more funding. I think the entire "they aren't making a game for money" is one of the most illogical. Not sure how many publishers would say " Well your doing it for your own enjoyment and don't plan to make money? It's for the players? Sounds great!". The entire we still have features off inside a beta test part says something.
Well they've had 8 years, that's plenty of time to do all that.
Nope
They said themselves they swapped engine several times and didn't really start development until much later (their excuse for not putting the game out yet).
There is no shred of proof they can make such a massive game.
No leaks, no info from them. No attempt to share this "wonderful next gen" mmo with magazines etc.
It is a load of crock. MMORPG.COM only allows it as it brings in revenue (they get money from each banner impression here)...
It is indecent and should be removed !!!
Oh get a life kid, Aventurine hasn't asked money from any gamer yet, no preorders or anything like that.
It is now safe to assume there is no DF coming out in three weeks and that DF should be removed from mmorpg.com
This is quite a charade!
I was hoping you were still around.
I expect a "I told you so" or "sorry" after release whichever is appropriate
Maybe as a New Year resolution mmorgp.com should purge themselves of this darkfall pest and move on. Sure they get tons of marketing dollars by keeping it on (more clicks and viewed pages = more visibility for banners = more $ for mmorpg.com), but there IS something called moral and clearly they don't believe in this game themselves.
I still wait to see who actually believes anything will release in January!?
Where is their new website, where can we order the game or download? Where are all the game magazine reviews (outside Greece and Italy)?
If they truly has such an astounding game, why don't they want our $ ?? Why literally hide the game from all professional gaming reviewers?
Where is the updated, truthful feature list of what is in the game?
Where is the videos showing AI? Not just scripted boardings, but actual players, not company personal, playing the game?
This game is such a hoax, I can't believe people are falling for it.
But enough is enough and three weeks before launch it is time to admit this is a hoax and delete its presence here and reserve the space for REAL games under development!
Thanks!
Draccan
You know, I'm just crazy and paranoid enough to consider the possibility that Aventurine is actually trying to use negative word of mouth from doom-sayers who under-play a game's integrity (thereby swingshotting the game upward in sales after release once people realize it isnt that bad). And yes that means you're an Aventurine employee.
Don't burn me at the stake yet
/takesadrink
this theory is sort of a reverse effect of overhyping, where giant sales are instantly sky-high then take a nosedive after people realize it wasnt all that great (aoc)..
okay now burn
/burning
now that im being tortured I think its best to say that the most appropriate strategy is to let the game speak for itself, and build its own natural hype. only get rich quick schemes hype the shit out their product and then hit the road once they know people realize their product sucks
but a 7 year scheme is a tall order. i know, you're a developing company and you're a miserable sack of shit, why not actually make some money with all this free time? some sort of investment for the future? i know that sounds very.. bignosedstarofdavidhalocaust-ish.. of me to say but come on, money pays the bills.
now that you realize im made of charcoal and am immunte to fire im gonna go back to my original conspiracy and say that you, Draccan, are a critical fraud.. with the alterior motive to actually boost sales in the long run. and now that im done bsing and entertaining myself (and anyone else confused enough to think there may be a good point somewhere here) im gonna start working on a new idea
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
... They said themselves they swapped engine several times and didn't really start development until much later (their excuse for not putting the game out yet). There is no shred of proof they can make such a massive game. ....
I hope Darkfall delivers on what it 'promises' but I remain a healthy skeptic.
And it's the engine thing that really worries me.
Here's why:
I am a WWIIoLer. The WWIIoL 'world' is truly massive and allows the interaction of air, ground and naval forces. But the engine is dated. The Developer (CRS) knows this and in a recent Newsletter had this to say;
"The Unity Game Engine is fundamentally eight years old. Sure we’ve changed a lot over the years but the basic interaction between code modules and the foundations have not undergone major overhaul. This has been a major undertaking over the last three years. Our game has very specific needs. In order to support infantry level combat in an environment where tanks need to be able to fire on targets at 3000m and planes need to cross vast distances at hundreds of miles an hour require some very specific requirements from an engine. When we started WWIIOL we realized that no engine out there could do what we needed so we built our own. Over the years we’ve realized that there still isn’t an engine out there that can meet our requirements (believe me, I’ve looked at them ALL) and so we need to improve what we have. The Unity upgrade is that improvement and it will be ready to go into live testing early next year."
Now, CRS are no fools. And they are certainly not liars. So, I believe this statement.
So, for Darkfall to offer a massive seamless world that many are hoping for (and that can do what some people seem to claim) they clearly found an engine CRS didn't look at? Or - they wrote their own and it's awesome?
Comments
The company doesn't care about you, its all about money. If you believe this game is comming out, your just wasting time. Free2Play games get more exposure than this.
This is true, and to get money they have to either fool the consumers, or make them happy.
Trying to fool us and no pre-orders?! thats pretty dumb.
Is it so hard to imagine that aventurine is trying to milk our cash by making us enjoy there game?
Well all bets are up still thou, aventurine might be just fishing on a big boat that costed a few mills in the sea laughing there assses off hehe.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
This game has terrible written all over it, and thats is being backed by the beta leakers.
Don't set your expectations too high, because you'll just be disappointed.
wowowow slow down there, now im worried.
First the naysayers say there are no leaks therefor vapors, and now you say some "leakers" says its bad.
If the leakers are complaining then i will be worried, thats for sure. But im more inclined your just spewing BS here, gonna go off to google abit if perhaps some really new leaks have been made since 3 days ago when i last checked...
And im not to worried, im pretty sure darkfall will be mediocre at best from start - im just hoping its playable and sticks to its core rules. Im very well aware that all new mmos come with very little at start, heck even wow lacked alot at start... and i thought that was a pretty decent launch looking on the content part.
P.S - the only reason i have some hope is becouse i know some leaks, and there are so far no leakers that ive found that has gone emoraging about how much it sucks (and they usually do since at that point they dont care if they are banned) - if leakers start to ignore NDA to bash, its time to start to worry.
EDIT:
actually found a new leak(only text, so no proofs thou), but it wasnt anything new or surprising really. But yeah people who think this game will be perfect at launch and look like AoC is gonna be given a rude wakeup call me thinks hehe.
You had me worried and thinking of Dark n Light kind of stuff there! hooboy the nightmares of that shit never ends
- was mighty fun to bug around on shield in snow thou haha!
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
I fail to understand why some ppl are always so naive. They are not out to make money? Dude, are you seriously believing that shit? They dont have a life to live or a family to feed?
Some other nonsense like "they prefer a slower start", "they want to be low profile" LOL
With the financial crisis now, believe me THEY WANT ALL THE MONEY THEY CAN GET. Stop living in yr fantasy world.
How do you know that these other people want to make all the money they can get? And how is that tied to the current financial crisis? And why does that necessarily mean that they have issue pre-orders to do what you say they need to do?
At any rate, I'm certain that you won't really care to definitively answer these, so why don't you at least stop telling people to believe you until you can first demonstrate to them that there is any real need for them to do so, instead?
I for one have absolutely nothing to lose by continuing to live in whatever kind of world it is that I'm in right now. I doubt your level awareness of things would show me anything I didn't already know or at least have already suspected was the case, so I guess I'll just stick with being admittedly naive for now. Oh well. Tra, la, la... (Have you got the inside scoop on something I don't know about?)
I'm not suggesting that I agree with aeroplane22, however -- both your last posts are fairly grating for all their simplistic notions -- but there certainly are ways to make more money over the long term with a "slower start", especially in a relatively small, fickle MMORPG industry already ruled at the top by a handful of established names, glutted with free-to-play clones and crappy wannabes at the bottom.
Thank you for the concern, though. If it turns out you're right and it's all a scam... well, that's great for you, I guess, being all right and stuff. I'm not sure what you get out of this, but no one from Aventur-whatever is asking me for anything yet, so yeah. Whatever. Feel free to continue to hint at your own cleverness in presumably finding all the devils in the details (or lack thereof). If it turns out you're wrong, well, you can always log into Darkfall (and mmorpg.com) with a different name and reap the rewards without anyone ever having to know. So I guess you can win no matter what, if you really want to.
Besides, the chances of failure always greatly outweigh the chances of success with any new title, so even if it manages to stay up and running for a year or two, when the subsription rate starts to go down the tubes, you'll be able to say that it was clearly all a scam because it was never really meant to last.
Now, if only I was so clever to be as future proof as you are, I wouldn't be so bitter. *sigh*
So in a nutshell your telling us you don't think a gaming company is out to make money. Do you know what investors are? Do you think they just randomly INVEST in games to see little to no profit just to make a fun game for you. Maybe the guy is right, your living in some fantasy world. And if you haven't noticed, the recession is global and effects everything. It may not effect Aventurine as much becuase I don't think they are pubically traded as of yet, but it does effect thier lives. People just don't start companies to make a small dollar. It's about the bigger picture. And this does not include you or what you beleive is FUN. Last I heard, you need cash to pay bills. You need cash to pay employees and you definatly need cash to support servers. I would honestly quit listening to Tasos. Hes nothing more than a pad PR rep for Aventurine, and it's going to show when this game releases. I suggest MMORPG.com make a forum on Jan. 22th just for this occasion.
Good Day dreamer!!
Um, no. Last time I checked, companies need to make a profit, just like most people do when they go to work.
My problem is that some people here seem to think there is only one way to fleece consumers and that it somehow involves raping them in as short a time as possible... and that being quiet and not divulging information about your game is somehow proof of that. I don't get the connection. There is no logical jump between the two that I can see. Investors have learned from the dot com bubble that burst and all the hype that went into trumping up IPOs... it's not going to happen again -- unless they're just as dumb as some of the people in this thread, guardian angel-type investors will want to see substantial, proven subscription rates before writing a check. All they have to do is look at the list of games on this site to see there's just too much trash out there already.
And, yeah, you'd also have to be a moron to turn away profits when people are willing to pay you, but if you release a product that will die within a year because it's still bugged and players get discouraged, what's the point when, if you had simply held back the release for a couple more months and used the time to work the bugs out, you could make a more substantial return on investment. A developer trying to being quiet about an impending release tends to support the notion that longer term survivability is the business model being followed here: bigger profits in the long run because of high customer satisfaction and credibility, and not because you're hoping 500, 000 bored WoW refugees were inundated with a glitzy advertising campaign that made them believe there was a chance to get in on the most uber thing ever on day 1 and be a part of history... before realizing three months down the road that it's the same old schlock as before and cancelling their subscription before heading back to WoW.
Blizzard did everything right, got a bit lucky, and managed to not screw up the winning formula that drew people to them in the first place... and now they've secured astronomical profits over a long period of time with no end in sight. Other companies -- say, SOE -- might have been able to duplicate Blizzard's success and secured a comparable market share if they had recognized the importance of the long term picture and how it relates to a consistent, quality of product and customer satisfaction. Look at what happened to SWG playerbase when SOE decided they had to make a few 'improvements' to the game without proper consultation (well, at least outside of the numbers that the boys in marketing came back with when they tried to figure out the whole Jedi thing, etc.) Poof. That game is a dead end now and SOE has undoubtedly suffered in their ofther offerings because of it -- a lot of people hated/still hate SOE for it.
Lastly, it's incredibly rare to release any kind of software that doesn't come with a few bugs. If you go about hyping the hell out of a game before release and go so far as to even sell pre-orders, you either know EVERYTHING and have redundant systems built extensively throughout your setup, or you are likely going to take a serious hit to your credibility when everyone starts jamming the server trying to download the game files and patches on release day... and the following week thereafter.
But who knows? Maybe pre-orders will still be made available. I don't care. That's really not my point -- my beef is simply with the attitude that seems to think that a mere lack of information is proof that a grand conspiracy is underway. Well, I'm sorry, but the only conspiracy I can see is people getting a hate-on for the fanbois and wanting so bad to be right about another hyped game going under just so they can spend the next year going around and proudly stroking their massive e-peen in front of everyone. Whoop-dee-doo.
So, yeah, I don't get the conspiracy theories. I would like to, but I'm afraid I just don't yet. And I'm afraid your "Economics For Dummies" talk is wasted on me --sorry, but I already have a job and a mortgage in the real world, so yeah, thanks for the, uh, effort there, chief.
Obviously, a developer staying quiet about their game is obviously too much for some people to handle without pissing all over themselves. Smell ya later.
(And here I was, vowing I wouldn't respond... I guess I'll just have to try harder...)
I was hoping you were still around.
I expect a "I told you so" or "sorry" after release whichever is appropriate
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
sophism
"
Modern usage
In modern usage, sophism, sophist, and sophistry are derogatory terms, due the influence of many philosophers in the past (sophism and platonism were enemy schools).
A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience's prejudices and emotions rather than logic, i.e. raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion. The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is, e.g., accusing another of sophistry for using persuasion techniques. An argument Ad Hominem is an example of Sophistry.
A sophist is a user of sophisms, i.e., an insincere person trying to confuse or deceive people. A sophist tries to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether his argument is logical and factual.
Sophistry means making heavy use of sophisms. The word may be applied to a particular text or speech riddled with sophisms."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism
thank you for that lesson
unfortunately nobody's motives are 100% pure, and thus everyone to a degree is a sophist
including you including me
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
I will not buy this game day one. Maybe 3-6 months after launch. I just have a hard time believing that 2.5 weeks before launch they won't say:
1) System reqs
2) Cost (box and monthly)
3) How to buy the game
4) If there will or will not be an Open Beta.
============================
OfaLoaf:
...What's Iraq like?
Toimu:
IEDs, SAF, RPGs, & mortars. But only during breakfast, lunch, and dinner. The enemy is so poor, they have to keep day jobs
Ok, while I agree w/ some of your points (ie the main website not being updated seems pretty lazy) your logic is actually backwards. Let me explain.
If I'm developing a product, and I know its crap... I want to sell as many units as possible as soon as possible. Why? Because word is going to spread like wildfire that my product is trash(via sites like these, which are its main PR source as you've pointed out), and thats going to hurt my profit margin. If I didn't believe in my product, I'd have provided preorders waaaay before Christmas, I would have put out doctored gameplay videos that would have made the game seem outstanding sometime in October and November, and I would have rushed a release prior to X-mas... regardless of how unstable the game was, because its going to suck anyway right? I would have pushed a NA distribution, regardless of whether or not I had the resources to properly support the additional servers/colocation arrangements/staffing support.
They aren't doing any of this though. They pushed back the release to Jan, even though the games been feature complete for awhile now. They did this to insure a stable launch, even at the risk of hurting their immediant profit margin(and inflating their longterm profit margin, which is a good sign). They haven't been throwing out tons of doctored gameplay video to hype up initial sales.... an indication to me that they actually believe that their product will bring in new people by word of mouth based upon solid gameplay. It's not like its difficult to doctor a gameplay video to make a game look way more spectacular than it actually is... and I'd damn sure be playing that card if I had a product that was going to get thrashed on reviews once it actually came out.
I really don't understand why the pre-order thing is such a big deal to some people... considering the game is going to be widely distributed via Digital Download... The whole point of a preorder is to reserve copies of a game so that your "supplier" will know how many units to order, and so that they won't run out. Most preorders don't even charge you the full price until the game is actually available... so wtf is the big deal w/ it on a game thats going to be a Digitial Download?
Also, your arguments about a small developer not being able to provide the content is also shortsighted. For one... no other game has even bothered to try. Are the features they are including really so mind boggling? Not really. Hell, the only thing thats actually unique that I can think of off the top of my head is the ship to ship stuff and the stealth mechanics. Everything else has been done in the past in some form or another... even the FPS concept is simply drawing from another genre. Most of the stuff they simply are improving upon. What held back a game like this for so long, is that your average MMO company is terrified of creating a game that centers around a full loot FFA PvP combat. They take the safe route and trace the path that WoW has created for them, whilst offering a few features that are "revolutionary". They seem content to simply feed off the MMO crowd that is looking for a "new" WoW
Darkfall is a slap in the face of WoW. It goes completely opposite of everything that WoW is. This game won't draw anyone wanting the next generation WoW... its going after a different crowd of MMO players all together. That being said, those types of players are in a minority(ie a niche game, much like the highly successful Eve Online)... and all the marketing in the world won't cause a person who wants the next generation WoW to enjoy a game like Darkfall... in fact most of that fanbase will probably completely hate this game... even if it is feature complete and makes good on all its promises. The developers seem content w/ that... and I think its pretty damn smart. You don't try to fight for food w/ an 800lb Gorilla, you just move to a different part of the jungle.
Like you said, use common sense.
Ok, while I agree w/ some of your points (ie the main website not being updated seems pretty lazy) your logic is actually backwards. Let me explain.
If I'm developing a product, and I know its crap... I want to sell as many units as possible as soon as possible. Why? Because word is going to spread like wildfire that my product is trash(via sites like these, which are its main PR source as you've pointed out), and thats going to hurt my profit margin. If I didn't believe in my product, I'd have provided preorders waaaay before Christmas, I would have put out doctored gameplay videos that would have made the game seem outstanding sometime in October and November, and I would have rushed a release prior to X-mas... regardless of how unstable the game was, because its going to suck anyway right? I would have pushed a NA distribution, regardless of whether or not I had the resources to properly support the additional servers/colocation arrangements/staffing support.
They aren't doing any of this though. They pushed back the release to Jan, even though the games been feature complete for awhile now. They did this to insure a stable launch, even at the risk of hurting their immediant profit margin(and inflating their longterm profit margin, which is a good sign). They haven't been throwing out tons of doctored gameplay video to hype up initial sales.... an indication to me that they actually believe that their product will bring in new people by word of mouth based upon solid gameplay. It's not like its difficult to doctor a gameplay video to make a game look way more spectacular than it actually is... and I'd damn sure be playing that card if I had a product that was going to get thrashed on reviews once it actually came out.
I really don't understand why the pre-order thing is such a big deal to some people... considering the game is going to be widely distributed via Digital Download... The whole point of a preorder is to reserve copies of a game so that your "supplier" will know how many units to order, and so that they won't run out. Most preorders don't even charge you the full price until the game is actually available... so wtf is the big deal w/ it on a game thats going to be a Digitial Download?
Also, your arguments about a small developer not being able to provide the content is also shortsighted. For one... no other game has even bothered to try. Are the features they are including really so mind boggling? Not really. Hell, the only thing thats actually unique that I can think of off the top of my head is the ship to ship stuff and the stealth mechanics. Everything else has been done in the past in some form or another... even the FPS concept is simply drawing from another genre. Most of the stuff they simply are improving upon. What held back a game like this for so long, is that your average MMO company is terrified of creating a game that centers around a full loot FFA PvP combat. They take the safe route and trace the path that WoW has created for them, whilst offering a few features that are "revolutionary". They seem content to simply feed off the MMO crowd that is looking for a "new" WoW
Darkfall is a slap in the face of WoW. It goes completely opposite of everything that WoW is. This game won't draw anyone wanting the next generation WoW... its going after a different crowd of MMO players all together. That being said, those types of players are in a minority(ie a niche game, much like the highly successful Eve Online)... and all the marketing in the world won't cause a person who wants the next generation WoW to enjoy a game like Darkfall... in fact most of that fanbase will probably completely hate this game... even if it is feature complete and makes good on all its promises. The developers seem content w/ that... and I think its pretty damn smart. You don't try to fight for food w/ an 800lb Gorilla, you just move to a different part of the jungle.
Like you said, use common sense.
Its designed to be a niche game, and a niche game it will be. Does that mean its faliures, hardly, but most MMO players will hate this game.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Yes there has. People keep saying it, but you fail to listen or you just want to egg people on.
They are not out to make big money, they are out to make a decent game.
Slow start.
Quality.
Speaks for itself.
The highlighted is probably the most naive and uninformed statement you can make regarding MMOs and companies that produce MMO, blind faith is sure king on these forums.
Yes there has. People keep saying it, but you fail to listen or you just want to egg people on.
They are not out to make big money, they are out to make a decent game.
Slow start.
Quality.
Speaks for itself.
The highlighted is probably the most naive and uninformed statement you can make regarding MMOs and companies that produce MMO, blind faith is sure king on these forums.
Hadn't you heard Adventurine have made billions in defence contracts and Tasos and the boys are all independantly wealthy. DF is an altruistic creation with the shareholders not requiring there investment back let alone a return on it. And pigs can fly. I still of course hope it delivers enough to be fun.
I don't think the year 2009 is going to start very well in the mmorpg frontier. Darkfall will never deliver what they've said so far. I don't know if the DF devs even know what features their game has. You cultist have been praising how awesome this game is going to be, I hope you don't get all suicidal once you find out the list is cut to 1/5 of it. Revolutionary? Riiiight.
Oh and dont forget they claim DF to be "next gen" even though 1: they dont know what that term really means and 2: the DF engine isnt even close to "next gen"
God this whole thread is funny when a ghost, a egg, and a lost sith lord are running around hopelessly trying to defend a game that wont be what they hope for it to be on the 22nd....cant wait for the fanbois excuses when that day comes lol.
I was hoping you were still around.
I expect a "I told you so" or "sorry" after release whichever is appropriate
Maybe as a New Year resolution mmorgp.com should purge themselves of this darkfall pest and move on. Sure they get tons of marketing dollars by keeping it on (more clicks and viewed pages = more visibility for banners = more $ for mmorpg.com), but there IS something called moral and clearly they don't believe in this game themselves.
I still wait to see who actually believes anything will release in January!?
Where is their new website, where can we order the game or download? Where are all the game magazine reviews (outside Greece and Italy)?
If they truly has such an astounding game, why don't they want our $ ?? Why literally hide the game from all professional gaming reviewers?
Where is the updated, truthful feature list of what is in the game?
Where is the videos showing AI? Not just scripted boardings, but actual players, not company personal, playing the game?
This game is such a hoax, I can't believe people are falling for it.
But enough is enough and three weeks before launch it is time to admit this is a hoax and delete its presence here and reserve the space for REAL games under development!
Thanks!
Draccan
____________________________
CASUAL CONFESSIONS - Draccan's blog
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There is absolutely no new leaks about Darkfall in betaleaks.com. No one wrote anything about their beta experience about two hours ago.
Well they've had 8 years, that's plenty of time to do all that.
Nope
They said themselves they swapped engine several times and didn't really start development until much later (their excuse for not putting the game out yet).
There is no shred of proof they can make such a massive game.
No leaks, no info from them. No attempt to share this "wonderful next gen" mmo with magazines etc.
It is a load of crock. MMORPG.COM only allows it as it brings in revenue (they get money from each banner impression here)...
It is indecent and should be removed !!!
____________________________
CASUAL CONFESSIONS - Draccan's blog
____________________________
Not to mention they claimed there time developing is the same as other games with much more funding. I think the entire "they aren't making a game for money" is one of the most illogical. Not sure how many publishers would say " Well your doing it for your own enjoyment and don't plan to make money? It's for the players? Sounds great!". The entire we still have features off inside a beta test part says something.
Nope
They said themselves they swapped engine several times and didn't really start development until much later (their excuse for not putting the game out yet).
There is no shred of proof they can make such a massive game.
No leaks, no info from them. No attempt to share this "wonderful next gen" mmo with magazines etc.
It is a load of crock. MMORPG.COM only allows it as it brings in revenue (they get money from each banner impression here)...
It is indecent and should be removed !!!
Oh get a life kid, Aventurine hasn't asked money from any gamer yet, no preorders or anything like that.
Go play with your lightsaber or something.
I was hoping you were still around.
I expect a "I told you so" or "sorry" after release whichever is appropriate
Maybe as a New Year resolution mmorgp.com should purge themselves of this darkfall pest and move on. Sure they get tons of marketing dollars by keeping it on (more clicks and viewed pages = more visibility for banners = more $ for mmorpg.com), but there IS something called moral and clearly they don't believe in this game themselves.
I still wait to see who actually believes anything will release in January!?
Where is their new website, where can we order the game or download? Where are all the game magazine reviews (outside Greece and Italy)?
If they truly has such an astounding game, why don't they want our $ ?? Why literally hide the game from all professional gaming reviewers?
Where is the updated, truthful feature list of what is in the game?
Where is the videos showing AI? Not just scripted boardings, but actual players, not company personal, playing the game?
This game is such a hoax, I can't believe people are falling for it.
But enough is enough and three weeks before launch it is time to admit this is a hoax and delete its presence here and reserve the space for REAL games under development!
Thanks!
Draccan
You know, I'm just crazy and paranoid enough to consider the possibility that Aventurine is actually trying to use negative word of mouth from doom-sayers who under-play a game's integrity (thereby swingshotting the game upward in sales after release once people realize it isnt that bad). And yes that means you're an Aventurine employee.
Don't burn me at the stake yet
/takesadrink
this theory is sort of a reverse effect of overhyping, where giant sales are instantly sky-high then take a nosedive after people realize it wasnt all that great (aoc)..
okay now burn
/burning
now that im being tortured I think its best to say that the most appropriate strategy is to let the game speak for itself, and build its own natural hype. only get rich quick schemes hype the shit out their product and then hit the road once they know people realize their product sucks
but a 7 year scheme is a tall order. i know, you're a developing company and you're a miserable sack of shit, why not actually make some money with all this free time? some sort of investment for the future? i know that sounds very.. bignosedstarofdavidhalocaust-ish.. of me to say but come on, money pays the bills.
now that you realize im made of charcoal and am immunte to fire im gonna go back to my original conspiracy and say that you, Draccan, are a critical fraud.. with the alterior motive to actually boost sales in the long run. and now that im done bsing and entertaining myself (and anyone else confused enough to think there may be a good point somewhere here) im gonna start working on a new idea
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
df is the madoff scheme of mmos
can a moderator delete this "sensationalist" and pointless thread, it neither helps nor offers constructive criticism...
they took out pets and hirelings which i completely agree with considering both of those were a bad idea
and the reason you havnt seen videos or screen shots is because of the tight NDA policy they have
I hope Darkfall delivers on what it 'promises' but I remain a healthy skeptic.
And it's the engine thing that really worries me.
Here's why:
I am a WWIIoLer. The WWIIoL 'world' is truly massive and allows the interaction of air, ground and naval forces. But the engine is dated. The Developer (CRS) knows this and in a recent Newsletter had this to say;
"The Unity Game Engine is fundamentally eight years old. Sure we’ve changed a lot over the years but the basic interaction between code modules and the foundations have not undergone major overhaul. This has been a major undertaking over the last three years. Our game has very specific needs. In order to support infantry level combat in an environment where tanks need to be able to fire on targets at 3000m and planes need to cross vast distances at hundreds of miles an hour require some very specific requirements from an engine. When we started WWIIOL we realized that no engine out there could do what we needed so we built our own. Over the years we’ve realized that there still isn’t an engine out there that can meet our requirements (believe me, I’ve looked at them ALL) and so we need to improve what we have. The Unity upgrade is that improvement and it will be ready to go into live testing early next year."
Now, CRS are no fools. And they are certainly not liars. So, I believe this statement.
So, for Darkfall to offer a massive seamless world that many are hoping for (and that can do what some people seem to claim) they clearly found an engine CRS didn't look at? Or - they wrote their own and it's awesome?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.